(Pt 1) Tow Truck PTO MALFUNCTION?? (Shuts off after 20 Seconds-P1123...'21 Ram Cummins)

Usually I get cars towed in on a flat bed...but this tow truck showed up EMPTY! Why?
Customer said that after a recent "Exhaust System Upgrade", the PTO system became very unhappy: it engages and then shuts off after 20 SECONDS...He can't use the flat bed without pressing the PTO button every 20 seconds!! Not good...
The code set is a P1123-PTO System Performance.
Let's do some research and figure out WHY is this code setting.
The diagnosis is complicated by incomplete information on the "Upfitter Equipment"...
Which Module is unhappy...ECM? TCM? VSIM?
Will we be able to get the PTO system functioning with NO PARTS REQUIRED?
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Enjoy!
Ivan

[@crisprtalk6963]

Man I get a SMA and a PHAD video back to back, Lucky day! Thanks Ivan.

[@KAMNC]

Also Royalty Auto Service. All three of them are multiple parts. 🤔

[@ChrisBorczon]

I am almost positive I know this one. I saw it before when I was still employed at Stellantis. If the customer has aftermarket software in the ECM to bypass the emission controls the software did not delete the PTO feedback signal so it will shut off in exactly 30 seconds. This 30 second feedback was fixed with a VSIM wire until 2019. There was an interim circuit in 2019-2020. The feedback circuit was deleted for 2021. However, The aftermarket software people did not fix this for 2021. I saw this exact issue several times. I haven't yet watched the whole video yet but i will.

[@richardcranium5839]

i was wondering if someone reflashed the pcm and didnt toggle the pto installed tab

[@jg7041]

Does Cummins insite work with these trucks?

[@mastahc411]

@@ChrisBorczon serves them right for bypassing emissions. Like the laws don't apply to them

[@RipCityBassWorks]

It's almost like people should bypass emissions. Also violates federal law.

[@timramich]

​@@mastahc411 Federal vehicles all do it.

[@michelbrown1060]

In the 80 / 90 I had a Chevy 3,500 with dumping rear box. . . . The PTO was a knob to pull out from under the dash , , Out, PTO active, IN PTO disengagd ☺ KISS. . 😉

[@billyhorton5779]

OEM wiring harness has definitely been modified whenever you see those blue 3M scotchlok connectors cobbled into a factory harness.

[@dougkubash8673]

every time i see a blue or yellow scotch-lock it makes me cringe!!

[@wyattoneable]

I have an older Rollback with a mechanical PTO driven from the transmission so no electronics, but this is still interesting. I'm paying attention!

[@TheCarCrazyGuy]

Aliens came down and stole the other three connectors

[@Andy_Hinners]

It was Trump who did it.

[@deplorablelibertarian]

I've used this towing company before, I recognize the number. Good company. I use these guys in Richmond, and GB's towing in Hampton Roads.

[@michaelp7211]

My Dad owned a towing company until about 10 years ago. Never had a truck that didn't have some electrical problems. Even brand new trucks. I'm an auto tech and I still dread working on them. I've seen some super bad wiring straight from the upfitter. That Scotch Lite connector brought back all kinds of bad memories.

[@alantrimble2881]

Scotchlocks are great…in non automotive applications. Also, cable and air actuated PTOs are incredibly reliable. It annoys me to no end that truck manufacturers have unnecessarily integrated them into the truck’s engine management system while making them LESS reliable.

[@JoseSilveira-newhandleforYT]

Another weird case! Great diagnostic approach and outside-the-box thinking, Ivan! No info and/or conflicting info, missing connection to VSIM and customer says it was like that before - can't trust available information or customer belief. Wondering if, instead of a connecting harness, they had a single wire patched to VSIM and it fell for some reason. Part 2 should be very interesting 🙂

[@alantrimble2881]

I’m not sure about Stellantis, but both GM and Ford have UPFITTER MANUALS to aid the upfitter when equipping cab&chassis trucks with purpose-built bodies. I guess whoever built this truck couldn’t be bothered to read the manual.

[@JoseSilveira-newhandleforYT]

@@alantrimble2881 That seems to be a widespread problem, across all trades - people hate to read instructions. Most of the time it goes well...

[@ecaparts]

I saw the dreaded Scotchlok on that upfitter harness under the hood! 😱😱

[@volvo09]

​@@RK-kn1ud that's not going to be the fix...

[@bm03431]

I cringed at that sight too

[@Hndsomehubby]

I do remember there being a setting in witech. Perhaps when the tuner flashed the ECM, it disabled the pto setting in the VSIM. I had one come in similar to this issue.

[@major__kong]

After listening to you read the theory of operation, I'm drawing activity, sequence, and state machine diagrams in my head. Too many years as a systems engineer for military systems with SysML on the brain :-)

[@mikechiodetti4482]

This problem brought back memories of aftermarket electronics for a single person bucket system in a Ford F450. Very few schematics, had to reverse engineer the PTO, lighting system, all the relays and electronics to several pages of drawings. Tried to contact local vendor for info, got this reply. "We only install it, don't have much info about the system." Gee thanks! Took several hours, figured it all out, found out there was a small electronic board that was temperature sensitive. No potentiometers on the board to compensate. So with 2 small electronic boards, one would work from about 50 degrees ambient to over 100 degrees ambient. The other worked from about 50 down in temperature. Couldn't desolder components from the pc boards as I didn't have a solder sucker or desoldering station. About 2 years later the truck was replaced with a new one and all updated electronic parts.

[@lvsqcsl]

HMMMM. Those upfitters can be troublesome. You WILL get to the bottom of it, Ivan. This truck is quite new and you are trying to find issues on it already. GREAT VIDEO!

[@NVRAMboi]

"And the plot thickens...." Thanks Ivan!

[@TheOnespeedbiker]

I remember Rainman Ray engaged the PTO with his roll back by sticking a wood wedge over the accelerator pedal to up the RPMs, now they need 4 computer modules to make it work.

[@larryberry2436]

😂

[@user-ln7of9gs4s]

Using a wedge on the throttle to raise rpm’s is not engaging the PTO. You’re comparing an old truck, to a new truck. I don’t know why everyone wants to compare everyone’s channels like everyone here is friends.

[@DependableAutoTruck]

it is wonderful what can be learned on you tube my wrecker you depress clutch pull knob PTO comes on to stop depress clutch and press knob and pto goes off wonderful no junk involved

[@robertk4629]

you are incredible guy..... gifted..... period

[@CALVINLNIKONT]

Ahh! The dreaded part 2!

[@bobweiss8682]

At 17:52, you show the pinout for the C1 connector on the VSIM. It clearly shows pin #11 as "Upfitter PTO Indicator".

[@ecaparts]

Yeah, I noticed that too. But I'm not sure if that is the pressure switch input or the blinking LED under the PTO button. Also the wire color is different than the wire going to the pressure switch...

[@ChrisBorczon]

@@ecaparts That is just a circuit the VSIM provides to tell the end user the PTO is on . Many people use to count PTO hours by connecting it to a hour meter so they can service the PTO system at a specific interval.

[@rickblanchette]

Someone has been there and pulled a cable and did not replace it. We know for a fact due to the connectors not secured at the transmission, test pin on same connector and wire damage from testing up top. He is not owning up to it and good luck finding that cable from the dealer. It worked before which means the cable was there.

[@mastahc411]

Ivan says at the beginning of the video the problem started after "exhaust modifications" aka egr delete. The video starts off saying someone else was there

[@deetee3153]

I'm calling it Honda steering wheel cover.

[@MarkPdot]

I haven't seen so many acronyms in one paragraph since my military days...whew!

[@liquidhandwash]

I've also had a problem after an "exhaust upgrade for reliability" on a diesel Peugeot, after the "upgrade" the AC and cruise would not work. The new map on the ECM was for the wrong year, and it threw a hissy fit. flashed the correct map, and it fixed the issue. Also got to keep my "exhaust upgrade for reliability"

[@jackhandyy]

Im from the EPA and I'm here to help. I'll pay that tow company a visit.

[@Andy_Hinners]

Virginia State Dept of Environmental Quality and Dept of Motor Vehicles Emissions Testing

[@StevenDaugherty-uo5cs]

In the beginning you said the problem started after some exhaust work, I would look for some damaged wiring near the exhaust.

[@arthurmccarron4379]

Always. Wanted to. Drive. A flat. Deck. This. Looks. Like. The one. I dream. Of. Thanks ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@csebastian71]

Had my heading spinning in the beginning. Great wire tracing🏆

[@willemstreutgers1154]

U left us with a cliffhanger

[@peterharmer6940]

Where gonna need more ivans in the future for sure.... a rare commodity...LOVE THE CHANNEL DUDE TOP MAN

[@ragnarironspear1791]

Always interesting videos , I'm learning every video 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🇬🇧

[@kevinsok3011]

I've really got my fingers crossed that you're dealing with a wiring integrity issue. Very possible that something was nicked or a connector was forgotten during the delete. However; since the issue showed up immediately following an emissions delete, I wouldn't be surprised if you're dealing with a programming issue. Maybe a non PTO emissions delete tune was loaded onto this truck. I sure hope that's not the issue. I definitely understand the appeal to delete emissions, but finding people who can accurately tune these things is getting harder and harder since the EPA has started to go after the people who write delete tunes. It's a risky business for them now.

[@knowone6214]

Damn....you mean there is a goddam computer is running the PTO????!!!.......Typical Stellantis Product.........hair pullin time Ivan....LOL

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

@@knowone6214 actually 4 computers 😆

[@SuperDd40]

I suspect the steering wheel cover to be the cause.

[@KaldekBoch]

I just got that Launch model myself - $1400 AUD was so cheap!

[@RicksterMW2]

If you want to trace a wire blind, you should look into getting a tone and probe set, they are normally used by I.T. network installers and phone line technicians to trace wires. And they are cheap.

[@peterbenson3776]

That wiring looks like a recipe for corrosion disaster

[@jefferyedwards5003]

And all of the car owners on the repo list can breathe a temporary sigh of relief while Ivan is performing his magic. Sorry Ivan, but there is probably a lot of people there rooting against you on this one.

[@ChloeStanderwick]

Your channel is not just a source of information, it is a source of inspiration and motivation. Thank you for your creativity and effort!🐋🍒🏔

[@Rick-O-Shay60]

as of this video... add anticipation! 👀

[@AraCarrano]

upfitter gremlins and emissions hacks the perfect match.

[@adamcweber]

The fact that this became a problem after exhaust repairs is a huge clue/red flag. As this is a 2021 I am guessing that TSB 08-121-19 won't be of any help? I personally find that looking up Upfitters wiring diagrams online and not only relying on sources like Alldata can be beneficial.

[@haroldhawkins9370]

Nice video Ivan.

[@billziegmond4943]

You do get the interesting ones my friend.

[@farmermiyagi1338]

Supper with SMA and PHAD. XD Y'all gonna spoil us. Now I need that vibrating recliner to work some magic. Today sucked.

[@BEANS-O-MATICtransmissions]

It was fine up until the mods, that'd the KEY INFORMATION ! Someone removed the plug/harness and now you have this..... For some reason, customers ALWAYS think the repair will be cheaper if they don't give you ALL the before info 🙄

[@Andy_Hinners]

This repair will end up bankrupting Chapin's Towing of Richmond, VA. 'cuz their DPF delete is on full display for the entire internet to see. Bound to be a bunch of folks who turn them in.

[@baxrok2.]

Thanks Ivan!

[@95thousandroses]

these cliffhangers are as bad a game of thrones. thankfully PHAD posts more than just on Sunday night though.

[@KStewart-th4sk]

I can remember when you used a knob attached to a cable to engage the PTO. None of this crap required and 100% reliable.

[@jerryplante5783]

They worked on the exhaust and there's now a wiring problem. Imagine that.

[@JohnnieBravo1]

NNNOOOOO!!!!! Not Part 2 !!! Dammit Ivan!!

[@awstott]

Cliffhanger! At least Ivan usually has part two up the next day so it's not like you're waiting a week.

[@JohnnieBravo1]

@@awstott HA! Yeah, he's pretty quick about cluing us in on the mystery. Ivan has one of the best, most fun trouble sleuthing channels out there.

[@MitzvosGolem1]

Warn everyone about grid heater nut falling into intake ruining Cummins 6.7 and the infamous Bosch cp4 injection pump failure on Cummins 6.7, Ford 6.7 and GM Duramax. The pump fails sends metal fragments through common rail diesel system ruins system . $15,000+- repairs. There is an upgrade kit new pump and down stream filter to catch metal . On Ford it can spin timing gear on crankshaft and valves hit pistons destroys entire engine and fuel system. Newer engines 2016 up. Just happened here to a new Silverado 75k miles . I would set up overide to pto pump to make it operate no matter what if it was my truck. I did that on my Crane .

[@marty0715yt]

GM has agreed to a $35 million settlement for owners of certain Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra trucks with Duramax diesel engines. Eligible owners can claim reimbursement for past repairs and coverage for future fuel pump issues, potentially receiving thousands in compensation.(6 days ago)

[@MitzvosGolem1]

@@marty0715yt Awesome

[@PaulCTownsend]

I thought that was a C4 pump.

[@marty0715yt]

@@PaulCTownsend They both sucked .What is a CP4 Pump and Why Does it Fail? Sep 1, 2021 - The CP4 is a high-pressure fuel pump, or injection pump, that debuted in 2011 in the Ford Powerstroke and GM Duramax engines.

[@marty0715yt]

Ford Still uses the CP4 because they are last in quality and first in # of recalls (except for that)

[@daveamo3237]

I'm not much of an electronics tech by anymeans.....In fact most tech jobs ,like that ended up in someone else's bay. But...Those Scotchlock connectors always come back to haunt us eventually.

[@GhettoWagon]

Tow trucks are cool

[@mastahc411]

By exhaust modifications you mean egr and Def delete,right? Good to know laws don't apply to tow truck drivers. Edit: it sure would be a shame if someone reported this company to the epa...

[@Andy_Hinners]

Virginia Dept of Motor Vehicles emission inspections and Virginia Dept of Environmental Quality. Chapin's Towing of Richmond probably did DPF delete on their entire fleet of trucks.

[@mastahc411]

@@Andy_Hinners reported

[@cullenmiller8170]

Interesting case study. I assume that something went wrong with the ECM reflash when the truck was put on a diet.

[@chrisstoddard1144]

Doing exhaust work to "make it more reliable"?

[@brycelund4112]

The fact they said it was working fine until they “modified” the exhaust is all I would need to hear before telling them to take it back to whoever programmed the PCM!

[@cclngthr]

I would remove those scotçhlocks and solder the wiring. Those t taps tend to have unreliable connections.

[@volvo09]

Unreliable connections, and also severing the harness it was splicing off of.

[@GlacialErratic]

Doh! Chasing the magic pixies.

[@richardcranium5839]

worked on a lot of allison trans in the '80's with electric pto's. the one hose is feed from the main pressure line out the other side controlled by the sollenoid is the hydraulic clutch. the third hose goes from constant main pressure through an orifice to pressure lube the bearings. we had a fused switch feeding the light and sollenoid with a grounding switch for the light and a ground at the other side of the sollenoid. simple with a hand throttle. what i noticed is on the switch there is 3 wires making me think it was designed to feed power to the sollenoid for a ground pull down circuit yet the indicator be powered on pid?

[@ChrisBorczon]

Same hydraulic set up to engage and disengage and lube the PTO as the Allison. And the PTO relay delivers 12V to the hot shift solenoid like you probably remember. Unfortunately now everyone is drive by wire so it's all BUS messages telling the engine to idle up etc.

[@kc6nfv746]

I know had 2 of those Truck one he replace the motor 68.000 mile the Fuel system went bad no warranty Dodge Cummins said $20.000 to replace the entire Fuel system lucky so many had the problem they got it fixed under a Recall another problem the grid heater bolt brakes off because of corrosion Destroy the engine if the can install the Banks that put the grid heater bolt in another location so it can't harm the engine but it may not pass the inspection in California my Friend purchase another Dodge Cummins 5500 the fuel system went bad on that also their is a Recall on the Diesel made by Dodge Even a jeep that had the same engine the Truck is a lemon from Dodge Cummins

[@philcooper134]

So “exhaust modifications” and no associated fault codes for the missing parts… software has been messed with and is not OE… Logically, if it worked before they messed with it, and now it doesn’t, that means they broke it. Put the exhaust and software back to stock is the correct fix lol. But I’m sure there’s a way around it!

[@DependableAutoTruck]

was waiting for you to say it went thru the ABS

[@billybobs841]

I had a issuse with a Launch xv-431 it took a littel while but the excutive took care of my problem

[@richardchisom3728]

Ivan, do you do transmission and/or engine work other than diagnosing?

[@Andy_Hinners]

"Some exhaust system modifications, to make it more reliable" AKA - DPF delete

[@oxfletch]

Do you ever trace wire paths using one of those domestic house wiring tone generators & tracers?

[@litz13]

14mins in ... and I see a blue splice connector. No idea if that's connected to this problem or not .... but if not, the truck will be back whenever whatever that splice splices fails. Hate those.

[@christopherwebber1104]

I would put a seperate dedicated switch on pto. Then just idle up using cruise buttons. No need for that to go thru bcm, tcm, ecm, etc.

[@tomtke7351]

W👁W -- what a MESS! (-1-) incomplete description of prior work. (-2-) incomplete wiring diagram. (-3-) incomplete component. locator diagram (pressure switch.) (-4-) YOU have reputation of solving difficult problems so's... you're "next man up!" (-5-) that backshell pin you found, was it the one that fell out of SMA's 'what's his name's' hat? O... I forget his name ... O.... my!

[@Andy_Hinners]

Don't forget root cause of this is unlawful elimination of emission systems by the owner

[@larstell]

I guess torched electrical lead.... 😂

[@CarCareAuto]

Man that is some horrible wiring by the upfitter, curious how you solve this

[@richardcranium5839]

exhaust repair for performance is codewords for delete?. if so i suspect the upfitter tapped off that system for the pto switch instead if doing it right. seen real upfitter butchery before. its waaaaaay over complicated the way they(mopar) did it.

[@111-c7x2t]

The problem is obviously the Honda steering wheel cover

[@marilynallen644]

Just amazing it takes all this crap to turn on the TPO When we just pulled a cable. And it worked every time

[@joeds3775]

No it didn't. I fix them.

[@jamesbizelli8568]

Now I hafta get some learnin goin on.

[@TheCarCrazyGuy]

I wouldn’t be happy if I was a Dodge as well.

[@bennyhonna]

Tow trucks are automatically a thousand dollars just for diagnosis 😤

[@alantrimble2881]

Especially after “exhaust system modifications”. lol. No shop owner wants to be on the hook for a customer’s hack DPF delete.

[@ironcross420]

Just be careful the hydraulics like to catch fire and will burn down like on RRR.

[@2packs4sure]

Dear sir,, How the hell can an exhaust modification make a truck more reliable ?? That's crazy.. I need details,, also phone numbers addresses and social security numbers.. Best regards,,, not the government I promise

[@buckhorncortez]

EGR delete.

[@jeffreyyoung8727]

I have seen these EGR completely sludge these engines so bad you need a new engine 😢

[@2packs4sure]

@@jeffreyyoung8727 Yeah I know,, I was funnin...

[@georgebell3964]

👍

[@mikeg3529]

In really intrigued on how that pto works...is it using the transmission fluid pressure to activate a clutch for a seperate pto pump and circuit? Or is it using the transmissions pump to drive the hydrulics for the flat bed directly with transmission fluid?

[@ChrisBorczon]

Good question. the PTO has a wet clutch inside it. Pressing the PTO button opens a 'hot shift solenoid' valve that sends 100 PSI + transmission fluid into the PTO and allows it to then spin the Hydraulic pump attached to the back of the PTO. Those hydraulic pumps are usually running in the 2500 PSI and 8GPM range. This is pretty much how all automatic transmission PTOs (except for some air braked trucks) work.

[@matthewjuhlin4628]

14:05 we need the screaming goat clip.

[@paulzent3646]

Do you think someone is pulling your leg? (The middle one!)

[@_RiseAgainst]

Yanking his tow strap.

[@peterharmer6940]

WOW PTO NEEDS TO KNOW IF ZZ TOP IS PLAYING ON THE RADIO MAD STUFF

[@tschuuuls486]

Canceling the pto if the engine is overheating seams logical, disabling while driving for certain applications makes sense, also it needs to raise rpm and increase engine fan, maybe disable AC while under heavy load. Makes sense to have this as an input to the ECU. Then they probably ran out of ecu pins with all the upfiter options and put it into a separate module.

[@peterharmer6940]

Bring back anologe systems. All the best dude

[@metoon3092]

7:23 AMAZON delivery 😂

[@ischmidt]

Someone's clearly been in there, whether the owner wants to admit it or not.

[@tomtke7351]

I was an engineer when I worked and Ivan's methods are to be duplicated... They are to be replicated. Logic & science NOT "by gosh and by golly! NPR is a goal.

[@paulmoffat9306]

Violation! Violation! Of the KISS principals (Keep it Simple, STUPID) A case of Design Engineers going wild with Module Obsession, designing an overly complex system to be used by idiots.

[@johnz8210]

I think upfitter diagrams are pretty easy to get. If the problem started after the other "repairs" it's unlikely anybody disconnected any of that mess in the dash though.

[@richardnilsen5]

Place your bets🗣 Aftermarket parts or electrical dibotchery by the other mechanics?

[@MrHughk1]

Vism C1 Up fitter pto indicator

[@SwanseaTitanFan]

How many of us went to check our ring camera at 7:25

[@stlmusic]

I did😂

[@barmanvarn]

I’m probably way off here but don’t most/all systems like this increase the idle when PTO is turned on? I don’t hear the rpm’s increasing so wanted to ask.

[@ChrisBorczon]

It did. It went to 900 RPM,

[@Knight_of_NI]

I love me some PHAD 🫡

[@byrd203]

5 &6 &13 on scanner at 18:35is to lines

[@captandysir8670]

Drove 5 hours because he doesn't dare get it repaired in Virginia.

[@marshall1157]

missing wire adapter or small module?

[@stevenakn1]

Someone been doing the hoki poki

[@Andy_Hinners]

@Ivan - You're a licensed mechanic. Is your license at risk for working on a vehicle that you know is DPF deleted? Do you have a responsibility to report someone who has DPF deleted a vehicle? Some things I hope you have considered before uploading this to the internet or performing a repair in pt 2 that allows the DPF delete to continue rather than repairing it properly so that it complies with state and federal emission laws

[@johnz8210]

In PA there is no license for mechanics. There is a license for state inspection, but he doesn't do that.

[@Andy_Hinners]

@@johnz8210 Thanks for the info. DPF delete is a touchy subject for the internet. I don't want to see Ivan get caught up in the aftermath of this video. It's almost a certainty that the owner has been reported multiple times already by various people who've watched this video.

[@johnz8210]

@@Andy_Hinners I agree, Ivan should have left that info out of this video.