Is the Society of St. Pius X Schismatic? Andrew Bartel vs Jeff Cassman

[@pintswithaquinas]

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[@thetraditionalthomist]

Found Mr. Cassman's arguments more convincing. However Mr. Andrew seems like a wonderful guy who cares. Let us all pray for greater unity in our hearts, one towards another, centering our lives on Jesus Christ, the author and perfecter of our Faith.

[@thelogosproject7]

His arguments circumvented Andrew’s thesis. They were convincing because they were largely correct. The problem is that they did not address the crux of Andrew’s premises and conclusion. Peace

[@JJ-og2jq]

@@thelogosproject7 sadly this is the case in most of the SSPX debates. I disagree with the question of whether SSPX are in schism, they may not be but that is not the whole issue, a question of whether they are in good standing is slightly more complex and not addressed e.g. why they are not chosen as exorcists (to my knowledge). Shame that so much of both sides of the argument often go back to emotions

[@thelogosproject7]

@@JJ-og2jq Yes, it’s the tragedy of disunity. A deep supernatural faith understands that truth and unity will never be opposed in a catholic ecclesiology. This doesn’t mean that faith is naive, rather, it is nuanced and works itself out in love.

[@michaelspeyrer1264]

His main argument is as has always been the SSPX position, which is “the ends justify the means.”

[@clarekuehn4372]

Unity only with clear dogma. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fqLLh2Ognt5qq5o

[@johnyanke7335]

Andrew: the people are converting in Africa, this is due to the Novus Ordo mass Reality: it’s because of a saintly apostolic delegate who converted all their ancestors and consecrated them priests. I wonder who that could be…

[@itisntwhatyouknow]

I'd give you a thousand thumbs up for that comment if I could!

[@cadenhand8726]

Great Catholic debate - less important who won v. lost, more important that things were clarified showing the strength of SSPX's position. Fantastic moderation as well.

[@michaelspeyrer1264]

What position? That ends justify means, which Catholic moral theology rejects.

[@anthonypadua7427]

The SSPX obstinately hold to the false position that a heretic can be a validly elected Pope and inside the Church. Their position is not Catholic and schismatic.

[@teddyspaghetti9566]

@@michaelspeyrer1264 The SSPX doesnt teach that. I’ve seen you spout this rubbish on a lot of comments without actually giving any evidence.

[@michaelspeyrer1264]

@@teddyspaghetti9566 Ummm, yes they do, I've seen official videos put out on official sites representation of the SSPX saying this exact thing. Proof: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a5m9o4V9gthpebs

[@VisionLiberty]

Jeff won this debate. In fact, Andrew keeps alluding to the idea that the SSPX will eventually go into schism - if that’s true, Andrew admits the SSPX isn’t in schism by his own words.

[@thepsychologyofheaven]

Yeah it appears Andrew was debating from an emotional perspective, giving the impression that he has a personal agenda and not a doctrinal or liturgical one.

[@thomasmarcello9360]

To say one is on a trajectory of schism does not mean that one will eventually be in schism but that one is in schism and is moving further away from Holy Mother Church. To say that ordinary form of the mass is harmful to one's soul is a schismatic claim.

[@jeffreykalb9752]

@@thomasmarcello9360 No. It's the truth. It is a Catholic Mass, but a Protestant liturgy. The faithful who grew up in it (and most people who attend the Novus Ordo have ceased or will cease to be faithful) eventually come to realize that, and find their way to the traditional rite. You're not the good guy here.

[@thomasmarcello9360]

​@@jeffreykalb9752Strictly speaking neither of us are good guys. We've both been in need of forgiveness from the Lord. You accuse the ordinary form as being a protestant liturgy... What constitutes a protestant liturgy? Does it need to have protestant heresies in it? I have found none. Does it need to look protestant in some way? Protestants are protestors against the Catholic Church right? So what defines the Catholic Church? Incense? Gregorian Chant? Latin? Christ said "Thou art Peter and apon this ROCK I will build My Church" He also said "He who hears you hears Me. He who rejects you rejects Me and He Who sent Me" When Holy Mother Church provides a new form of the Roman rite She does so with the protection of The Holy Spirit - the ordinary Magisterium. If you think Christ's institution of salvation can provide something harmful to your soul at Her most trustworthy level of Magisterium then why are you Catholic? Just so you know, I have left the SSPX after 5 years of believing what you believe. Remember this Jeffrey, the Devil can mimic humility but will never mimic obedience. I've written a lot, but I'll finish by reminding you of the story of King Solomon and the two mothers. Do you remember how Solomon found the true mother? Well hold that thought... And I'll quickly mention that because of the SSPX priests being suspended ad Divinis their absolutions were invalid. But in the year of mercy (2016), the Holy Father Pope Francis, by his God given authority to bind and loosen, made it so that for that year their absolutions were valid. AND ON TOP OF THAT, he extended it after the year ended and to this day SSPX priests are able to give valid absolutions... SAVING MANY CHILDREN OF GOD... So I ask you... Who is the true mother? You are made in the image and likeness of the almighty God, and I love you and will pray for you Jeffrey. Happy Easter, Resurexit Sicut Dixit, Alleluia!

[@mariamikaelakrizbajda4294]

@@jeffreykalb9752 I don’t think so… if it would be similar to Protestantism, it would mean the church allowed a rite that is harmful to our faith, and it would go in opposition to the Church’s indifectibility. Read “I am with you always” by Michael Davies, one of the SSPX apologists

[@rmmm2579]

I went into this highly skeptical of the SSPX and expecting to side with Andrew but instead came away agreeing with Jeff. I will remain Byzantine but have deep sympathy for the SSPX.

[@jaybee1930]

Praise the Lord

[@Anthony-vx6cs]

I used to be very interested in this debate.. After reading a few articles on either side, and watching too many debates on the matter, it’s become pretty clear that this “schism” does not exist…. Wonderful priests, who are ironically more obedient to the Church and Her traditions than many diocesan priests.. CHEERS MATT! Another great video. Love your channel.

[@finallythere100]

I'm getting. more interested in it, and your comment encourages my further look into the matter. Andrew makes a very good point about the fruits and the Catholicism exploding in the East, BUT, changes could have been made in the Mass as an alternative without all that was taken out of the Mass and Sacraments and with all that was put in. . For instance, in Africa, in many parts, satanic witchcraft and spells are not uncommon. There is NO excuse for removing the exorcism in infant Baptism to rid generational demons. There is no excuse for a lot of what they do. Not even all of it is V2, it is what is being done on Novus Ordo, which goes even further Thant the unnecessary changes in V2 itself. Andrews cause and effect is intriguing but it does not prove his case at all. Certain changes could have been made w/o the changes rendering the Mass, sacraments, the faith, so anemic in comparison. I currently in a parish with FSSP, which I love. They are so devout. But I am going to speak w man priests about the issue of the heresies of the popes starting w John Xxlll (never mind Siri theory) and what are the implications of these heresies. I think the issue is being looked at more and more as the heresies are becoming more apparent to the masses (of people ). Blessings.

[@finallythere100]

I'm getting. more interested in it, and your comment encourages my further look into the matter. Andrew makes a very good point about the fruits and the Catholicism exploding in the East, BUT, changes could have been made in the Mass as an alternative without all that was taken out of the Mass and Sacraments and with all that was put in. . For instance, in Africa, in many parts, satanic witchcraft and spells are not uncommon. There is NO excuse for removing the exorcism in infant Baptism to rid generational demons. There is no excuse for a lot of what they do. Not even all of it is V2, it is what is being done on Novus Ordo, which goes even further Thant the unnecessary changes in V2 itself. Andrews cause and effect is intriguing but it does not prove his case at all. Certain changes could have been made w/o the changes rendering the Mass, sacraments, the faith, so anemic in comparison. I currently in a parish with FSSP, which I love. They are so devout. But I am going to speak w man priests about the issue of the heresies of the popes starting w John Xxlll (never mind Siri theory) and what are the implications of these heresies. I think the issue is being looked at more and more as the heresies are becoming more apparent to the masses (of people ). Blessings.

[@frankleone7685]

While the priests are great, what about the laity? If the laity go out of their way to claim the novus ordo are heretics and you never should go to a novus ordo mass, does that not indicate schismatic mindset? If sspx members view fssp priests/laity as traitors, is that not a schismatic mindset? The priests may be great, but the sspx laity sufffer from pride and air a schismatic attitude, which is why this debate happens so often

[@thomasfolio7931]

@@frankleone7685 Having had my seminary formation in the SSPX, before the consecrations in Econe, I can attest that the Society like the rest of the Church is a mix of those who want to follow Christ and be obedient to His Church and those who want their own way. This applies to both the clergy and laity at SSPX chapels. While I've returned (since the day of the election of Pope Benedict XVI) to full communion with the Holy See and my local Ordinary, I've found just as many people in local parishes as in the Society who have a warped idea of what the Church is and teaches. From those who deny the validity of the OF and the rite of ordination after the reforms of Pope Paul VI, to wild conspiracy theories about John XXIII being a Mason, therefore an Anti-Pope (all without proof) Sadly a few of priests in formal Schism who now have split into their own Sede groups, taught both that after the Election of Pope St. Pius X, he had reformed the rules of the conclave to lift any excommunications of Cardinals, so they would be valid electors and candidates for the See of Peter. Something at the same time they deny to Pope John (if in fact the incredulous rumors of his being a Mason were to be true.) All in all the Church has told us that the SSPX is an internal matter of the Church. I could not maintain my association with them because they would not follow their own insistence of remaining true to Canon Laws before the reforms of Pope John Paul II. I objected to the Society establishing parishes, granting annulments and other issues which require ordinary jurisdiction. I could perhaps accept if there was an Ordinary who seemed to publicly ignore his duty to the faithful, and the Society had approached him offering to supply to the needs of those who want for their spiritual good what the Society provides, and was rejected, perhaps. But the Society has within itself a theme of being the true church, and the diocese being marginal or non-Catholic. Both far from the letter and spirit of the Canon Law they claim to uphold. Lastly, we rather than pointing fingers, need to pray for what our Lord prayed for, "Ut unum sint." That we may all be one.... Pray for the Pope, pray for our bishops, priests, deacons, seminarians, and all the faithful, that we may uphold what Jesus handed on to the Apostles, and they down to this day.

[@philcortens5214]

@@frankleone7685 I would say you're mistaking good old-fashioned Catholic Church militancy for pride. The problem with the FSSP (soon to become extinct under Francis) is that they have sold out on principle in favor of preference (their "charism").

[@folofus4815]

Surprised Cassman didn’t mention that Pope Francis gave Bishop Houndor permission to retire to an SSPX priory and told him that they weren’t schismatic

[@michaelspeyrer1264]

I love people who espouse all these positions always know what was said at events they were never at.

[@folofus4815]

@@michaelspeyrer1264 Huh? Bishop Huondor said it himself, I have no reason to believe he is a liar

[@paernoser871]

@@michaelspeyrer1264 yes, bishop Houndor is a made up bishop who definitely doesn't exist and definitely didn't retire with the society in Switzerland. You're a genius

[@anthonypadua7427]

@Vince Perri do you agree with Francis that proselytism is a deadly venom? Or that non-Catholics can receive Holy Communion and be saved?

[@michaelspeyrer1264]

@@folofus4815 Source?

[@Mrctomlinson1]

Thanks Matt for doing something on the SSPX. It would be great if you could have one of the Society priests on the show some time.

[@FranekLuc]

Scott Hahn dialogin with some FSSPX priest. What a dream! ;)

[@tMatt5M]

Father Paul Robinson would be an excellent guest

[@hurley566]

FSSP and SSPX priests engaged in a discussion :D

[@mrshappycatholic]

The clergy of the SSPX categorically refuse to engage in public debates. They write books about their position, but they won't engage it live in a public forum. Interesting. Or should I say, suspicious?

[@ragejinraver]

​@@tMatt5M Yes he comes to the NYC mission often . He's hands down one of my favorite priests

[@JEspin2024]

Strong points by Mr. Cassman. I especially loved his closing statement. I attend both Dioscean and SSPX and it's sad to see the stubborn prejudice against the Society.

[@marietta1335]

Pope Benedict has described the Society's rejection of Vatican II and the conciliar Popes' magisteria as a doctrinal error. Thus, SSPX cannot be admitted into the Church until they accept Vatican II as a legit Church council.

[@5MinuteCatholicApologetics]

I tell people that on occasion I go to an SSPX chapel and they think I'm a sede vecantist.

[@clintufford_777]

It is duplicitous. I think we need to begin to realize that something is very off with all of the anti-SSPX stuff going around. The devil loves confusion - it is an effective tactic and for 50 years it has worked.

[@marzena3396815]

IT'S THE SSPX THAT HOLDS THEIR STATEMENTS AGAINST THE CHURCH, NOT THE CHURCH AGAINST THEM! STUDY THE FACTS THIS DEBATE DIDN'T GIVE YOU ENOUGH INFORMATION IT'S OBVIOUS THAT CHRIS IS CORRECT, NOT JEFF

[@eamonob84]

And what about the society’s prejudice against the rest of the Church? They refuse to worship with other Catholics or to obey the bishops and pope.

[@vocavit7628]

The continued debate over this issue may be an example of the Lord working in mysterious ways. I learned of the SSPX through one of its ardent detractors. I felt moved to investigate and have found their ministry and origin story to be more compellingly Catholic than nearly anything I've encountered in my life. I've not attended an SSPX mass or spoken to one of their priests to date, but I do intend to follow Jeff's advice and do so soon.

[@lidiasoares5675]

The same here!

[@marklizama5560]

It's this kind of Sanctimonious talk that really turns me off from the SSPX; not debates whether or not the SSPX is in schism, I don't really care about that, but how what Lefebvre did was great and it wasn't for him the TLM would cease to exist! No one, as of yet has provided a good argument in justifying what Lefebre did, almost everyone simply resorts to just saying, "Lefebvre was a Saint!" Can you give a good argument in favor of what Lefebvre did?

[@rob7800]

@@marklizama5560 really it's all over the sspx website and pro SSPX sites and commentators all over the place. In a nutshell the Faith was being dismantled by the Church's own custodians. Archbishop Lefebvre stood against this destruction and upheld the Traditional Catholic Faith through all of the persecution. And it came from everywhere. The Pope, Bishop's, priests, the faithful, the media, etc. And yet he still persisted. And for what? He was never suspected of heresy, blasphemy or apostasy. He was suspect for not going along with the new mass, new sacraments, and new catechism. He felt the need to consecrate Bishop's after years of agonizing over the thought. Why? To ordain Catholic priests the way they always were. To keep the Faith of our fathers. He was the St. Athanasius of our times. I highly recommend reading Open Letter to Confused Catholics, maybe 150 pages. It can also be found in audio form on KZbin. If you like that read They Have Uncrowned Him and also the biography by Bishop Tissier. Ave Maria!

[@marklizama5560]

@@rob7800 So the ends justify the means? The gates of Hell would've prevailed had it not been for Lefebvre? God would've abandoned His Church if Lefebvre didn't ordain those bishops? And also, Lefebvre is *not* like St. Athanasius, Pope Liberius (who is considered a Saint by Eastern Catholics) condemned St. Athanasius under duress from the Emperor, John Paul II was not under duress. (I remember Taylor Marshall promoting an apologetical book by St. Robert Bellarmine and during his promotion of it he said something like, "I don't like how he handled the Pope Liberius issue.")

[@rob7800]

@@marklizama5560 the highest law of the Church is the salvation of souls. There's a hierarchy of order in laws. Almighty God works through humans to accomplish His end. Yes, without Lefebvre, humanly speaking the Latin Mass would have likely at the very least not as available as it is today.

[@nejcskrbec2793]

It is a shame the issue of Novus Ordo priests telling people not to go to ANY Traditional Latin Mass wasn't adressed. It is quite common in my experience. Much more so than "traditional" priests explicitly telling me to never attend the Novus Ordo or to even assert attendance at this Mass is sinful in itself.

[@thelogosproject7]

Yes, you are absolutely correct. There is indeed a lack of communion and blame to be handed out on all sides. We mustn’t let that create division!

[@nejcskrbec2793]

@@thelogosproject7 The amount of scrutiny the priests of the SSPX and their positions are under is really ridiculous at times. The Church has clear parameters for when someone is a Catholic and when someone ceases to be one. Holding different positions on liturgical discipline and interpretations of a non-dogmatical ecumenical council certainly does not separate one from the Body of Christ.

[@thelogosproject7]

@@nejcskrbec2793 I agree up to a point. If we keep the theological notes in mind (as well as much of what is found in “donum veritatis” by the CDF) it is certainly a fact that religious assent of mind and will does not apply MERELY to dogmatic statements. The syllabus of errors of Pius IX explicitly condemns such a view.

[@michaelspeyrer1264]

The problem with this premise is, that’s not the position of Rome. It Is the position of the Sociery.

[@thelogosproject7]

@@michaelspeyrer1264 what premise?

[@TheDeanMachineTV]

Matt, as an SSPXer, thank you for holding this debate. I appreciate you giving a voice to our society, something that isn’t normally done in more “mainstream” Catholic circles, though I know you’ve also taken heat for being “too conservative/traditional” before. In the future, if anyone’s down to host it, I would be very interested to see a debate on some of the SSPX’s objections to V2, the New Mass, etc. Quite honestly, if we’re sticking out like a sore thumb with false theological positions, who cares about our canonical status? On the other hand, if we’re the main group upholding the true Catholic positions on these matters, our sketchy canonical status can be tolerated, for it’s better to be canonical oddballs than doctrinal oddballs. Take care and God Bless.

[@Araedya]

Would also be interested in these topics being debated. I’m not a SSPXer (FSSP) but find a lot of their arguments compelling and I like that the SSPX is finally being given some mainstream attention here (that isn’t the typical immediate condemnation).

[@anthonypadua7427]

@@Araedya do you hold with the FSSP that JPII was a “Saint”?

[@Araedya]

@@anthonypadua7427 I don’t know what to think about the new canonizations, another topic I would like to see debated

[@anthonypadua7427]

@@Araedya they are a joke. JPII and Paul VI were heretics, not Saints.

[@5MinuteCatholicApologetics]

I don't see Rome regularizing our status since doing so would send the message that the Society was right to rebuke the NO mass and there is no way in h*ck that Rome would do that

[@minorityvoice9253]

I believe that Jeff won the debate on weather the Society is in schism. I think Andrew did a good job of pointing out some issue that truly need to be resolved by a future Pope.

[@marklizama5560]

True, one of the strongest arguments in favour of the SSPX allegedly being in schism (I do not believe that the SSPX is in Schism and do not have a problem with the SSPX per se, my issue is with Lefebvrism) is the SSPXers themselves, instead explaining how Lefebvre allegedly did nothing wrong, the vast majority of the time they simply resort to saying "Lefebvre is a Saint!"

[@JohnFromAccounting]

@@marklizama5560 What is wrong with private veneration of a holy man? It took hundreds of years of prayer and veneration for Rome to accept Joan of Arc as a saint, and to admit that the excommunication was invalid.

[@bruno-bnvm]

@@marklizama5560 You are being silly

[@thetraditionalthomist]

Thank you so much for hosting the debate!

[@movfana92]

The argument that the the Novus Ordo has been good for the faith in Africa and Asia is wrong because the Protestant church grew as well in those places during the same time. The link between Novus Ordo and the expansion of the Catholic Church in Africa is not as simple as Andrew says it.

[@marzgirl99]

I’m not very far into this debate, but I can already follow Jeff’s arguments much better than Andrew’s based on their opening statements

[@mbc626]

Something that might be helpful for people to keep in mind watching this debate. Unity is an END brought about by adherence to the truth. Through one's adherence to the truth, we unite ourselves to Christ, and to every faithful Catholic who likewise embraces truth. On the flipside, truth necessarily causes division, in that, those who refuse the truth are necessarily divided from those who embrace the truth. There are those who would invert the order, and claim that, regardless of what the truth seems to be, we should instead pursue unity and put truth in the backseat. It's more virtuous to go along and get along than cause division. This is an unfortunate misunderstanding of the hierarchy of virtue. Our Lord himself was a sign of contradiction, because he was Truth Itself and the truth divides, just as it will at the end of time at the final judgement. So the question should not be how can I best achieve unity with others, but how can I most closely unite myself to the truth which inevitably brings about unity among those who likewise embrace the truth.

[@thelogosproject7]

Your assumption is both epistemically and theologically problematic. Beginning with the theological: that Truth and Unity might end up being essentially opposed in a Catholic ecclesiology is contradictory. It would take a Protestant one. This leads to the epistemic problem: determining whether something is true, especially in regard to revelation, cannot be a rationalistic problem of individual conscience: it comes from faith in the teaching of the church; a faith which works out tensions in a sophisticated manner. The Magisterium is not only the authentic interpreter of scripture, but also of Tradition.

[@michaelspeyrer1264]

Which isn’t within the authority of the SSPX to decide.

[@michaelspeyrer1264]

This is just a variation on the ends justifying the means argument.

[@michaelspeyrer1264]

St. Benedict taught that the first real test of holiness was obedience to the legitimate authority placed over one.

[@anthonypadua7427]

@@michaelspeyrer1264 The authority of Francis is not legitimate. The Church teaches a heretic like Francis cannot be validly elected Pope. You are in communion with a heretic.

[@glorialopez8700]

Mr. Cassman, a very strong debate with charity and convincing points! God bless!

[@artistforthefaith9571]

Watching old footage of Archbishop Lefebvre, it seems very clear to me that he was a very holy man. Comparing him with some of the prelates of today is astonishing, it only vindicates Lefebvre in my mind. The first to cry schismatic is the first to accept the sins that cry out to Heaven for vengeance.

[@thelogosproject7]

After reading the biography of Marcel Lefebvre, I agree with you that he was a holy man with an incredible zeal for the Catholic faith. He had a very stubborn personality, as his biographer points out, and equated “Roman” with “Catholic” in a manner which tended to equate “neoscholasticism” with revelation. Not to mention the hotly debated contention over whether scripture and tradition were sources of revelation or whether Christ was the sole source received, as through a mirror, in scripture and tradition interpreted by the magisterium. Tangent. The point being, to be Catholic is not necessarily to be Roman (which is verbatim what Lefebvre says). The communio school of ressourcement called for a reform which subsequently, due to post-conciliar insanity, the SSPX threw out (baby and bathwater). This led to a de facto difference of mind and heart in the faith. There is not a genuine ecclesial unity of hearts and minds between the SSPX and the Church, but the Church is attempting to remedy this through all of the canonical clemencies it has shown.

[@anthonypadua7427]

@@thelogosproject7 The group occupying Rome is not the Catholic Church, it is the end-times Counter-Church. The Church cannot officially teach heresy, which the VII and it's anti-popes do.

[@JohnFromAccounting]

While the actions of the Society after Lefebvre are not without flaw, they try their best to follow their founder's instructions on how best to be a servant of Christ. Lefebvre is still a guiding force for the good of the Church, even past his death. If he isn't a saint, then I don't know who is.

[@dragonslayers2007]

Thank you so much for hosting this Matt. It would be great if you could have an SSPX priest on your show. Fr Paul Robinson perhaps? I am from Africa, living in South Africa. The liturgical abuses in the dioceses in South Africa are many and very sad to witness. Please don’t say that the liturgical reform was necessary for Africa. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not cultural. Thanks to the catechesis and guidance of the SSPX here - our family has grown in the deposit of the Faith. We have been attending the SSPX for some years now (came from the Novus Ordo) - and the parish is growing beautifully. Deo gratias. St Pius X - ora pro nobis.

[@Ramonsotojr]

Funny, when people say the people that go to sspx chapels are uncharitable and yet the only uncharitable comments I've found in this comment section are those in opposition to the sspx, but maybe that's just how people on the internet are in general. That being said, many of the people arguing online are not representative of the families that attend mass with the sspx.

[@thelogosproject7]

As I've gone through the comments, I'm not sure I see these uncharitable comments you mention. There is much about the insanely pervasive double standard and novel applications of ecclesiology, as well as the recounting of personal experiences, but I could not find comments calling people or societies names or any sorts of ad hominems (I very well could have missed some). That being said, I've received VERY nasty comments on some of my content elsewhere (only the content which looks at the theological questions surrounding this topic). The only other place I see this is with separated Orthodox (Nick-named "orthobros")

[@Zoeyelizanelson]

Jeff, thank you for your clear opening statement. It definitely cleared a lot of my confusion. I agree there is a separation, but not one that is wanted.

[@relevantrex5459]

As a cradle Catholic who does NOT normally pray the Mass at SSPX chapels (only 3 times in last 8 years) this debate has increased my respect for the SSPX. In fact, I now consider myself more of a "fruit" of what the SSPX has done.Jeff won this debate hands down. Precision was on Jeff's side. It seems to me that Andrew's positions are underlined by subjective experiences personal grievences he experienced in the SSPX. His position carries more of an opinionated nature than objective Truth. He gives opinions, which is all it is - opinions. Opinions can be dangerous when they are underlined with feelings. Listening to him was "kinda" like listening to a former Catholic priest who converted to Protestantism, in that feelings trump objective truth. The Traditional Catholic movement is NOT a deep dark hole for me, as Andrew says his family went down. Instead, it is the light that has led me out of the dark novus ordo world I was raised in. May God continue to bless the SSPX and may He lead more people to the Traditions of Holy Mother Church, whether that is via good diocesan churches, FSSP, ICKSP, SSPX, and any other non-schismatic groups.

[@lorenzoabellana1881]

Andrew Bartel is correct because this is what happen here in the Philippines. SSPX priests forbade Catholics to go to Novus Ordo mass because it is "harmful to our soul".

[@bruno-bnvm]

@@lorenzoabellana1881 It is a shame the issue of Novus Ordo priests telling people not to go to ANY Traditional Latin Mass wasn't addressed.

[@stevew1669]

Needed was an in depth discussion of the liturgical changes in the NO and the pernicious influence of people like Rahner at Vat II. Jeff easily won this debate. God bless the SSPX.

[@gloriadeipatre6484]

I've been in the SSPX for over 20 years. I was raised in the faithless novus order. My last conversation with my Diocesan Priest I was told by him that The Blessed Mother was not a Virgin and she had other children. Yes you read that correctly. I found tradition through Father Gruner and John Vennarri and their Catholic Family Newspaper prepped my soul as well as praying the Rosary alone at the age of 30 for the first time in my life. I only asked our lady for one thing, to know the truth. When I went to my first high mass I cried at its beauty and awesomeness. I was moved by the solemnity of it and I knew then that this was where I needed to be. I never looked back. I felt betrayed when I compared the new mass to the tridentine mass. My parents generation let it slip away and I refuse to let it go, over my dead body. This I will say, the SSPX had stepped in and filled the void left by the modernists. I raised 11 children and educated them in the society. Have charity for God and teach your children to love God. His Sacred heart is big enough and rich in mercy that he can sort this sordid mess out. Don't get hung up on semantics spinning your head around and becoming crazy about a jot or a jittle. Go forward be brave, be bold and live catholic.

[@doctorg.k.spoderminsr.2588]

How is your position _not_ schismatic when you call the modern church "faithless" and a "void" which teaches heresies about Mary?

[@theresefrancis9283]

@@doctorg.k.spoderminsr.2588 I've had Catholic priests also tell me heresies as well. Not sure how Francis going to pagan rituals and depositing "new 10 commandments" that are more important than the ones God gave make your position look any better. I'm not a sede, but I'm also not blind. There are massive issues in the church and plugging your ears and going "lalala" won't solve anything. Most in the church are indeed faithless and the churches are void of truth and full of compromise. Heck, one church I attended allowed muslims to use the space to pray to their false god.

[@earam88]

@@doctorg.k.spoderminsr.2588 it is fully 100% percent schismatic. Americans think that they could choose churches like they choose restaurants even catholics, sadly.

[@dominicalberto2179]

​@@earam88very true!

[@Thedisciplemike]

@@earam88 That's not the position at all. It is not schismatic. And is it wrong for a man to desire a more pious place of worship than the impious NOs? Is piety even something worth achieving anymore?

[@mitchellmayers828]

Love you, Jeff. You did a fantastic job.

[@michaelspeyrer1264]

A typical SSPX supporter ignoring the incoherence of the position.

[@christinezallo]

check out Michael Lofton on Reason and Theology--he definitely disagrees

[@chrisarmon1002]

@@michaelspeyrer1264 typical noves ordo. Ignoring logic and tradition. Again even the pope or Rome does not make sense. He could not make sense how a “schism” Sspx has faculty! We keep hearing “mercy” lol that’s bs the pope can’t contradict himself. So you have to ask yourself this. Did you hear how he even admits “whatever the pope says you follow” proving he obeys to error and never would disobey error. NO! We don’t just obey error and Gordon would

[@chatosoriano8644]

This is the 2nd time I have heard Jeff on a debate and WOW!!!...he nailed it again. CONGRATULATIONS JEFF!!! I hope your opponents would learn from you. And I really think that they are the ones who needs to have an examination of conscience. May God have mercy of these people who keeps accusing SSPX of schism. May the Lord God have mercy on their poor souls. God bless you Jeff. Will keep you in my prayers. Wishing you all the best.🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[@harrietruffy5205]

I think any discussion that leaves the viewer asking themselves, “can I be more devout? Can I be more reverent?” -is a win. I do wish the communion rail would make a come back. Both men were thoughtful and it was a great conversation.

[@patriciajohnson1894]

More of this Matt. Just a question...what about the church in Germany? Their disobedience to Church teaching and heresy's and leading their flock astray. Then I'd rather attend a SSPX Mass

[@jedrzejm.8113]

Canonization process was deemed infallible, but the Popes (John XXIII and Paul VI) did make revisions of Martyrologium Romanum (removal of saints they though were not true saints, even though they were canonized), so why is the SSPX not free to say that about a person who scandalized (and didn't repent until death) tens of millions of Catholics by giving reverence towards a symbol of a satanic religion and allowed desecration of the tabernacle and altar by pagan idol worship?

[@lidiasoares5675]

The more I read about the Late Archbishop LeFevre, the more I think he should be a Saint! He was a Visionaey!

[@itisntwhatyouknow]

I'd say he has a high place in Heaven, God rest his soul

[@JohnFromAccounting]

You are allowed to venerate him privately! Please pray for the blessed Lefebvre.

[@williamavitt8264]

Bishop Lefebvre died in a state of excommunication. He won't be a Saint

[@PaleoalexPicturesLtd]

The question is, who writes about him ?

[@JohnFromAccounting]

Why should we approach the SSPX any differently to how we approach the Franciscans? The Franciscan order was, in the past, opposed to Rome and highly critical of the Pope and the direction the Church was heading in. They were murdered and assassinated, and often considered apart from the Church, but over time it became clear that they were following the teaching of Christ through the ways that St Francis taught, and that they were Christians in good standing.

[@LUIS-ox1bv]

Good of you for pointing out this historical.fact. The Franciscan order was not readily accepted wholesale after the death of St.Francis.

[@deadpoet4662]

Hopefully there will be more and more Catholics who were against the SSPX and will have a change of heart towards the SSPX. I did so many research before I came to attend the SSPX mass. I hope everyone do the same in the Act of Charity, Fairness and Justice.

[@mitchellmayers828]

Thanks for the live chat, everyone! It was fun!

[@minorityvoice9253]

Andrew has a deep personal wound. I'm so sorry Andrew about what you had to experience within your family.

[@samuelholm316]

I'm a Protestant, and found this debate very interesting. It gave me some insight into the internal affairs of the Roman-Catholic Church. God bless you, my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. 💙✝️

[@Martha_DC]

2 years on from the debate, and with John Salza having now had a long conversation with Matt, giving very logical reasoning and facts showng the SSPX is canonically in schism, I truly do wonder if any regular viewers have changd their mind on the canonical status of the SSPX..

[@DanielMaloneJr]

He had John Salza on to preach against the SSPX and no one there to respond to. John Salzas arguments are refuted by John Salza himself when he supported the SSPX.

[@OpenOceanOnly]

@@DanielMaloneJr “John Salza refutes John Salza because he changed his mind”. In that case, Lefebvre refutes Lefebvre because he changed his mind.

[@staypositive4773]

I am a catholic priest. Schism ? AB Lefebvre didn't ordain the 4 bishops because he intends to establish his church. AB Lefebvre didn't ordain the 4 bishops because he wants to disobey Rome. On the contrary, AB Lefebvre ordained the 4 bishops to protect/preserve the church , to protect/preserve the faith and tradition of the church, and to protect/preserve the Holy Eucharist (the very life of the church). Sometimes you need to disobey human law to be faithful to God's will.

[@gerardducharme2146]

Simple analogy. If your father commands you to do wrong do you fallow. No, You do what he says what is true, and Reject what is contrary to the truth.

[@paxsemper9714]

Andrew, just for the record, more Catholics in South East Asia are going to Traditional Latin Mass in recent years and the numbers are growing by years ! Lukewarm Catholics are coming back to the Catholic faith because of the dedication of Priests of the SSPX ! There is little growth of vocations among the Novus Ordo in South East Asia! The demand for Traditional Latin Mass (by the Priests from the SSPX) are tremendous and they are extremely busy traveling to serve the growing numbers of Catholic families in South East Asia. This is happening in South East Asia! This are the "good fruits" produced by SSPX! While the numbers of Catholic youths attending Novus Ordo Mass are leaving in droves due to "watered" Catechisms during Sunday schools and false ecumenism that said "all religion is good and leads to God"! Please don't only quote Africa, look at Asia - the largest continent in the world!

[@JohnFromAccounting]

Catholicism is not doing well in Africa.

[@paxsemper9714]

@@JohnFromAccounting Continue to pray for them.

[@emiliepoirier6093]

If I was able I would go to traditional mass right away, the closest is 6 hours away from.where I live and the novus ordo masses here do not feel holy or respectful. I wish we had traditional mass, priests and great homelies as I there are in traditionals mass. I am 41 years old. I pray for traditional mass to be back everywhere world wide.

[@AdrianSjunger89]

Well done Mr Cassman and thanks for this great show!

[@thereasonableman2424]

So, I have a couple of observations: 1 - At some point Andrew talks about how his family was torn apart by the division of the SSPX that happened when the "resistance" formed, it's clear that, while not applying to each individual, he sort of paints this broad brush of the "resistance" ofer the SSPX. I'm sure that it was a traumatic event, but it's not fair to the SSPX. 2 - The FSSP has still not been given a Bishop. Any single person who goes to a TLM and thinks it's good but still calls the SSPX schismatics is a coward. Without the actions of Marcel Lefebvre, there would be no TLM today because the hierarchy in Rome wanted to suppress it. You're blind if you don't see that if the SSPX dissapeared tomorrow, the FSSP, ICKSP, etc... would all be gone within the week, because these were created in order to weaken the SSPX and as a check against them, because the Hierarchy can't really simply make them go away and condemn them as schismatics in good conscience. I will say it again, criticism is all well and good, but calling SSPX schismatics while attending any TLM is cowardice of the highest order. By the way, V2 should be rejected as a whole, but not letter by letter. There are many good things in there, but there is so much ambiguity and space for abuse that it's too hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

[@o0OAnnamariaO0o]

I am attending the TLM at a FSSP parish now after growing up with the NO. I never understood how FSSP priests could disrespect archbishop Levebvre, because as you said, there would be no TLM today if it wasn't for him. I tried to make up my mind now for some years on the status of the SSPX and whether I could go there or not, but the truth is: Neither am a a theologian, nor do I have the time to read into all of it and understand it. I am just a mum that feels the responsibility to give good spiritial nurishment to her child, so while avoiding going to the SSPX when I first came to the TLM, I would now go there if there was no other TLM available, and I hope that God doesn't expect me to understand the canonical situation but sees my efforts to conform to the faith as best as I understand it.

[@o0OAnnamariaO0o]

*Lefebvre (I get that wrong every time)

[@WebCitizen]

@@o0OAnnamariaO0o You're right, you shouldn't be spending and exorbitant amount of time researching, you should focus on your family and spiritual life. As someone who originally thought the SSPX was in schism I can wholeheartedly endorse them and the abundant good fruit they are bringing to the Church.

[@teresabenedict2920]

Thank you, Matt! This is wonderful. I appreciate your openness to seeking the truth.

[@Libera_nos]

Cassman is definitely much more convincing.

[@thelogosproject7]

I would agree to an extent, but his convincing arguments completely circumvent Andrew’s actual thesis

[@michaelspeyrer1264]

And the SSPX sycophants come out in force as they always do.

[@teddyspaghetti9566]

@YAJUN YUAN It doesnt exist, its just a cope.

[@charlesquinn1526]

There is a difference between resisting a pope or superior that the church teaches and the saints practiced, and disobedience. That’s the heart of the issue

[@spartan5812]

Andrew complains that the SSPX weren’t trying to work with Rome and then goes on to complain against the Resistance saying they (the Resistance) broke from the SSPX because they (the SSPX) were drawing closer to Rome and adjusting their stance on some V2 documents..

[@thelogosproject7]

This is a slight misrepresentation. The SSPX would not budge on various aspects of the magisterium’s current teaching, as found in VII, the mass, and other areas. But there was a lot of wiggle room in areas not fully fleshed out. That wiggle room made some feel like the dialogue itself was a compromise: hence the “resistance.”

[@JohnFromAccounting]

Lefebvre personally kicked out a bishop that was staying with the SSPX when he began to talk about the idea that the Pope was not actually the Pope. The Sedevacantist position was entirely unacceptable for Lefebvre and his Society.

[@06rkave]

After this, I want to join SSPX, thanks

[@ragejinraver]

I'm in the SSPX and trust me it's a decision you will not regret

[@fredbennett4956]

Novus Ordo guy: The SSPX disobeys the Pope; therefore the SSPX is schismatic. SSPX guy: The Pope has given the SSPX permission to administer the sacraments. Novus Ordo guy: IGNORE the Pope; he doesn’t matter!!!

[@michaeldulman5487]

Pope Francis seems to gave said neither of those things in his Jubilee Year letter. Instead of calling the SSPX schismatic, he said its priests and superiors were not in full communion with the Church. Instead of saying its priests had faculties to administer confession, he said the faithful who go to them for confession would receive valid and licit confession. “A final consideration concerns those faithful who for various reasons choose to attend churches officiated by priests of the Fraternity of St Pius X. This Jubilee Year of Mercy excludes no one. From various quarters, several Brother Bishops have told me of their good faith and sacramental practice, combined however with an uneasy situation from the pastoral standpoint. I trust that in the near future solutions may be found to recover full communion with the priests and superiors of the Fraternity. In the meantime, motivated by the need to respond to the good of these faithful, through my own disposition, I establish that those who during the Holy Year of Mercy approach these priests of the Fraternity of St Pius X to celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation shall validly and licitly receive the absolution of their sins.“

[@johnyanke7335]

Francis have them jurisdiction. Confession requires jurisdiction for it to be valid

[@JohnFromAccounting]

@@michaeldulman5487 There is no such thing as "full communion" or "partial communion". There is either communion, or non-communion.

[@dianaf.s.1345]

The Pope gave the SSPX faculties for confession and marriages. What about the status of the other sacraments?

[@fredbennett4956]

@@dianaf.s.1345 The Church has definitively ruled you can satisfy your weekly Mass obligation at any SSPX chapel. Good enough?

[@JohnFromAccounting]

At 40:00 when Andrew starts talking about how we have no experience watching a schism grow and evolve. This is false. The schism in Germany is very clear and every step of the way has been documented.

[@lisaabrusia5930]

I was disappointed reading most of the posts here pointing out that Jeff won while some even went so far as to degrade Andrew, who ought to be the one being congratulated for having the courage to debate someone at a higher educational level, who is older and more experienced than himself. Thank you Andrew for having the courage to address this with someone more advanced than yourself. You gave it your best and held out your dignity. You spoke intelligently and from experience which I am sure was not easy. May God give you and your family abundant graces for speaking out and for standing by the Chair of St. Peter faithfully! That is what marriage is all about, being faithful. Jesus referred to the Church as His Bride! May her children always remain steadfast to the end no matter what comes against her, even the gates of hell! May we not run from the Cross but embrace it and fight from within!

[@jowr2000]

Jeff Cassman won this one. Andrew Bartel did not establish that SSPX is in schism. Thx Matt.

[@thepsychologyofheaven]

It appears Andrew was debating from an emotional perspective, giving the impression that he has a personal agenda and not a doctrinal or liturgical one

[@berniepeng]

Jeff mentioned Natural Law. In a talk on Thomas Aquinas, Peter Kreeft, relayed a story of a former student who was practicing law, and after given a convincing argument, a judge was impressed so much that he told this lawyer he was going to bring down a judgement in agreement with His argument, but first wanted to know where it came from. the former student said, "Thomas Aquinas". The judge became angry and changed his mind!! This proves that prejudice, influences today's mind more than the pursuit of truth!!

[@c.s.froggis9982]

I grew up Baptist, became an agnostic for years, then Jesus came to me. I went back to the Baptist churches, but after feeling something was just not right, I watched the Crisis in the Church series by the SSPX, and I can say that the SSPX was a large part of my conversion to Catholicism. In fairness to FSSP, I did end up joining through them and have not even attended an SSPX mass. But does a schismatic society bring in converts under the pope? Excuse me, but I am far from convinced.

[@chrispazdersky861]

Cassman is simply a better debater and argued his points with more clarity despite Bartel establishing odd rules at the beginning of the debate

[@marklizama5560]

No Cassman is not a better debater, Bartel is a *worse* debater, Cassman resort to the classic sanctimonious, sentimentalized victim arguments I constantly see from Lefebvrite apologists.

[@Tabletop274]

@@marklizama5560 Could it not be that maybe the "Lefebvrites" are just fed up that people hate on them all the time and continually shriek at them for being "schismatics" and won't recognize their fellow Catholics as Catholics?

[@marklizama5560]

@@Tabletop274 I’ll let your reply speak for itself. Of course if you want to present an actual case in defense of what Lefebvre did, by all means.

[@Tabletop274]

@@marklizama5560 Randos online who are willing to dismiss the fellow Catholics as sanctimonious, sentimenalized victims don't merit the time of day for an argumented response, in my opinion. I could very well be wrong, you might have good will behind your reasoning, but I don't see that put forth. If the arguments that Cassman don't at least make you realize that we're Catholics, then I leave you to yourself.

[@marklizama5560]

@@Tabletop274 I never said the SSPX weren't Catholics, my issues are with Lefebvrites, not the SSPX.

[@BelovedSon]

While I enjoyed the debate, the speaker for the pro side seemed rather unprepared. Someone like Cathy Caridi who’s an actual canon lawyer or maybe even Cdl. Burke (if you can get him) would have been a lot more livelier. I hope this topic gets debated again but with different speakers next time.

[@thelogosproject7]

The debate was not about canon law…

[@BelovedSon]

@@thelogosproject7 I never said it was. I said Cathy Caridi is a canon lawyer.

[@tannhauser4569]

Yeah, it seems everything worked against Andrew in this debate. He took way too many things for granted and did not demonstrate the evidence or give concrete examples. His strategy did not pay off. It seems that as soon as you forgo canon law it's a lot harder to argue against the SSPX.

[@bernadettegalvin7768]

I'd like to hear more on this topic from different people. Nothing against these guys but I didn't find it very helpful in navigating the subject, Andrew in particular didn't seem well prepared.

[@SUPERHEAVYBOOSTER]

Andrew definitely could have given a more cohesive argument…

[@patriciajohnson1894]

There is only one Sspx in cape Town, South Africa. I belong to NO parish but let me tell Sspx is BEAUTIFUL the priests Awesome! I want to go more frequently. The biggie for me is kneeling and receiving Communion on the tongue. May God bless SSPX. Let's pray for the church. That said how about all the abuses and teachings of priests in NO.

[@thedomesticmonk772]

So let me get this straight, according to Jeff the SSPX I’m not in schism with Rome because whenever the Pope calls them to Rome for meetings and stuff they always go. They only listen to the Pope when they feel like it and they pray for him of course, so it’s all good. 🤷‍♂️

[@jedrzejm.8113]

IBP (canonically recognized in 2006) does say Novus Ordo is harmful to the faith. If they can say that - why the double standard?

[@canisrah]

I'm currently in Andrew's camp, but wish I could be in Jeff's. I attend the Novus Ordo, but wish there was only the Mass of the Ages. What a difficult time to be a Catholic.

[@anakkalbo]

Ex Novus Ordo here from Germany. I left Novus Ordo when I saw coz I can't attend Mass zwithout positive test for plandemic COVID or if dont have paper that I am poked. There opened my eyes and found out for archbishop Lefebvre and FSSPX.

[@tMatt5M]

19:38 I've never seen a debate where a debater demands the other too not make certain arguments because he doesn't feel like arguing against them. Interesting strategy.

[@thelogosproject7]

You clearly aren’t familiar how debates are structured when it comes to “terms” and “burdens of proof.” I’d recommend doing some research on basic debate rules.

[@RyanGBanister]

gaslighting @@thelogosproject7

[@jedrzejm.8113]

New Mass is not only deficient, but actually harmful to the faith, because of omission of problematic scripture passages (often in the middle of the whole fragment that's read at Mass) - which gives the impression that these teachings no longer apply; by favoring heretical understanding of the Eucharist - that it is a meal and not a sacrifice, or even as much a meal as it is a sacrifice (to the point of Lutherans and Anglicans often adopting the New Mass with little to no change) - removal of sacrificial language, replacement of the sacrificial Offertory with two prayers resembling Jewish prayers before a religious meal; by introducing prayers that implicitly (or even explicitly) deny doctrine of the faith like prayers for the Jews.

[@frankjamesiii5362]

This was very informative. I've always heard SSPX were schizmatics or sedevacantists. I never took those claims to heart but they seemed to be pretty common.

[@nelsondelossantos3045]

Great example by Andrew, “Its like driving over some to get your kid to the hospital”. I’m sure you will try not to hit that person. The means don’t justify the end.

[@jeaniemccombs2200]

This was very interesting, I’m new to all of Catholicism so I have much to learn. I know very little about the kinds of laws Andrew was citing, but I can cite personal experience. I came into the Church with a decent knowledge of the Bible and converted by reading the Church Fathers, so one could say I learned traditional, pre-conciliar Catholicism. It took only a couple of weeks to be broken hearted in my new parish, the lack of Catholic education was shocking. I will never understand how a church with so much wealth of knowledge and beauty and holiness produces such shabby, functionally illiterate Catholics who proudly commit egregious sins because they don’t realize they are sins. These are direct quotes from people who are extraordinary Eucharistic ministers, one doesn’t even need to be a practicing Catholic in good standing to hold in one’s hands the Holy Divine Presence of Jesus himself. “I haven’t been to confession in 30 years, it makes me uncomfortable”, “I always vote democrat and I don’t care what their position on abortion is” my homosexual spouse and I “go to Cabo every three months”, “it’s okay if you aren’t Catholic, I don’t want you to feel left out”. Anyone attending Mass in this parish will receive communion from someone who thinks all of these quotes are just fine and will hear from a priest who has no problem with it. Is the priest not disobedient? Is he not leading people to eternal damnation by being too loving to correct sin? Since I moved away, he was made bishop. I came into the Church with stars in my eyes, I couldn’t wait to sign up for classes in Church history, Church Fathers, Saints, Catechism, the Bible, not only weren’t they available, no one wanted them. The priest wouldn’t teach, he arrived when Mass started and left when it ended, he was never there, his sheep were abandoned to believe whatever they wanted. Then I traveled all over the southern US, from CA to Florida looking for a teaching parish, they don’t exist. After 3 years of seeking, I found the TLM where people know their faith and worship with great devotion, but there is no teaching outside of Mass, I still have so much to learn. Then, I found the SSPX, their website is a virtual college, judging by the priests on the SSPX website, I imagine priories have knowledgeable priests & opportunities to learn, I don’t know if they’ve broken any laws, I do know they feed my spirit in a way no one else ever has. When people condemn them, I think of Jesus admonishing the Pharisees for putting the law ahead of spiritual salvation. I can never, ever accept that it’s more acceptable to attend Mass where married gay men or people who haven’t been to confession in 30 years distribute communion than to go to a Mass that is holy, where communion is offered by a priest who lays down everything for his people, where people stand in long lines to confess every week. If we know believers by their fruits, I don’t think there’s any question which is the far superior choice.

[@anacelia9481]

This is what God wants, true conversion to the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church. Bravo Jeanie.

[@theresefrancis9283]

Totally agree. Eucharistic ministers were also only "allowed" under extreme circumstances, but their use is abused by priests wanting to "be inclusive" because only men with consecrated hands are permitted to touch the host. It's seen as sexist and closed minded. It's why I also prefer the SSPX and their help in terms of theology and other TLM parishes.

[@Ryan-nv3dz]

I find it odd we’re debating wether the SSPX is in schism but we’re not debating wether the German church is in schism.

[@anthonypadua7427]

The whole Vatican II Church is in schism and heresy. It is a counterfeit church.

[@WebCitizen]

Right on brother.

[@TheCleanTech]

Because among good Catholics there is no disagreement on the Germans ,

[@Ryan-nv3dz]

There has been no action taken against the Germans unlike devout traditional Catholics. That’s what I find odd

[@TheCleanTech]

@@Ryan-nv3dz as do I , but the German issue is basically a new issiue, The Schismatic tendencys among the more extreme traditional groups has been going on for about 50 years . The Church typically works slow

[@czesmilo4990]

I grew up with the traditional Latin mass and when they changed it, it no longer felt right to me so I just stopped going. The novus ordo does not feel like mass or praising Jesus to me.

[@AnaMT1985]

It really has nothing to do with your feelings.

[@larryluch8178]

Check out the Eucharistic Miracle of Buenos Aires. It is helpful because it took place at a NO Mass.

[@barbarakuehl2777]

I was w/ SSPX for yrs. I learned alot & am grateful 4 them; however I left 2 FSSP Bc I wanted 2 b in the Mainstream church. Thank God. I personally think We must stay w/ Peter .

[@FranekLuc]

Andrew is not speaking about SSPX schism but about schismatic mentality in traditional circles. It is something different.

[@adriandsouza2665]

Can 751: Schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him. SSPX do not pray the Divine Mercy as promulgated by Pope John Paul II, which is still in practice in the body of the christ under the Current Pope as well. This clearly shows that the SSPX church do not submit themselves to the teachings of the Supreme Pontiff. Hence are a schismatic group.

[@FranekLuc]

@@adriandsouza2665 It is not true. My polish FSSPX priest said that they did some theological research and its no problem to pray Divine Mercy. I think it is important to pray for the current pope, remember that he is sinner as all living humans. To obbey him in matters of faith and morals. And not to obbey him when he is teaching wrongly. And wait for Last Judgement. Everything will be resolved there. ;)

[@adriandsouza2665]

@@FranekLuc You see here SSPX itself is a group that creates confusion. Because a larger group of SSPX audience would call this priest you mentioned who favours Divine Mercy Prayers as a Neo-SSPX member and that his sayings does not represent the true teachings of the SSPX church. This group itself is so much Protestant like in nature which itself does not have any unity.

[@FranekLuc]

​@@adriandsouza2665 The teaching of SSPX is one thing, and it is 100% correct, another thing is a schismatic mentality of some people who attends this Chapels. We need to pray for them to obtain the virtue of love. As we need it also! :) My wife is neocathehumenal way member. Vatican accept it. And they also think they are better than anybody else. :)

[@adriandsouza2665]

Lefebvre clearly broke the Canon Law 751 of not submitting himself to the Pope when the Pope clearly suspended him and he still went ahead and ordained bishops with his 'own' authority. Why would you want to be a part of a Protestant group that clearly started off by not submitting itself to the Pope. SSPX clearly started off by breaking Canon Law 751.

[@tnjdtnjd7162]

both solid-- but Cassman is da man--do not debate this man.

[@RestoringTheFaith]

Jeff Cassman wins, hands down.

[@rx0102]

ancient RTF comment

[@angelicashi9773]

I’m a converted Chinese Catholic, so I had no idea about how in history Chinese Catholic generations celebrated their Mass until I saw one historic picture lately online, which I wish I can share with you here. It is a traditional Latin Mass, with people dressed in fashion either in Qing dynasty or time of Min Guo. So, it proves that our earlier Catholic missionaries didn’t have to reform everything to broadcast the Gospel.

[@thomasmarcello9360]

There have been many forms of the Roman rite throughout the history of Christianity, and obedient Catholics conformed to the changes. Martin Luther thought he knew better than the Church... Be careful, be very careful.

[@ajmeier8114]

Thanks for the great debate. I think it is pretty clear they are not in schism...although I can see it eventually going that way. But I would like some clarification on if the SSPX officially teaches that the Novous Ordo is evil/illicit/damaging,etc

[@MJAlford98]

The SSPX generally takes the view that the Novus Ordo is valid, but not licit, ie. it is not good for the soul. It was formulated with input from 6 Protestant ministers, so is it really good?

[@ajmeier8114]

@@MJAlford98 So the SSPX thinks, in general (is there an official stance?) that a valid Mass is not good for the soul? Meaning that it is better to not go to Mass at all than to go to the NO?

[@robertcarlin4876]

@@ajmeier8114 yes. Wayyyyy more to it, though. Check out their “crisis in the Church” series and the documentary on Archbishop Lefebvre for a good understanding. The basic argument of “We must keep holy the Sabbath, and if you are scandalized by the abuses of the Novus Ordo, you can’t do that, therefore you should not go” needs some significant time and charity to research without judging them harshly. If you read Michael Davies’ Cranmers Godly Order, you won’t think twice about it.

[@thelogosproject7]

@@MJAlford98 you are applying the categories of validity and liceity in a way that is surprisingly not in accordance with tradition. Validity is tied to apostolic succession and the matter/form of the sacrament. Leceity is tied to jurisdiction. As to the claim that the novus ordo “received input” from Protestants, would you say that Nicea received input from Arians? The prominent Protestant behind the novus ordo converted to Catholicism decades prior to the council and is one of the greatest theologians and liturgists or the 20th century: Louis Bouyer. Now, he wasn’t the only one on the board. An excellent description of what happened can be found in his autobiography.

[@JJ-og2jq]

@@ajmeier8114 very roughly this is my understanding of their position, I've attended SSPX in the past

[@MrKingsley16]

The explosion in conversions and ordinations in Africa is a direct socio-economic opportunity by the poorest of the poor in the world. Who not only take advantage of the opportunity to live a healthier life, but also send their monies back to their local villages, paid to them by the wealthiest bank in the world.

[@gazda3787]

SSPX are "guilty" of sticking with Tradition in times if confusion

[@st2577]

One question comes to mind and that is on men becoming Priests . What is the difference of the schooling and rites and validity of ordinations . I’ve heard that the new orders / ordinations are not valid because the rites have changed and they’ve taken out like exorcism courses . Can we hear and compare the schooling and ordinations of Priests ? Thank you This was a good debate ! Jeff did a great job presenting the SSPX .

[@jimferris6460]

At 17:38 of the opening argument I am curious to know if it is proper for the person speaking first to set the parameters for the debate such as Mr. Bartel seems to be doing? It sounded as though he was attempting to draw his own lines around the debate and in a sense, limit what Mr. Cassman could say. Not being very familiar with formal debates I was just wondering. Thanks

[@josesilvasepulveda9819]

I belong to a FSSP parish. I think that the SSPX guy won the debate by a big margin.

[@KimberlyAnnAbbott]

Great job Jeff Cassman! Thank you for hosting this debate

[@24erstad]

This debate didn't do it for me, but after listening to John Salza, there is no doubt they are in schism. I've humbly switched my position.

[@24erstad]

@@T_frog1 Yeah. Have you read his argumentation?

[@glausean]

man, i'm sorry, but every time andrew spoke, it just hurt. props to him for showing up, but jeff had a far better handle on the framing the whole way through and is just a far more savvy debater.

[@tenthorder3291]

Watching this I felt like something might be off with Cassman. I read some concerning things, which for me have tainted his perspective, arguments, and ultimately his position.

[@tenthorder3291]

@@chrisnunn7888 what I saw can be googled

[@stldrew6810]

Who starts out a debate setting their own rules and charging you to obey them? Thats the moderators job, smh. Andrew sounds so smug and arrogant and divisive. He acts like the state of the Catholic Church today and then was so unified . How niave. SSPX are thoroughly Catholic, more so than many Novus Ordo Catholics and even the Pope today.

[@KarenJSim]

I attend Novus Ordo and Byzantine Catholic Church. I have attended a Latin Mass where the church has a diocesan bishop approval. I was born in 1963 when the church was transitioning to Vatican II, the new mass. I don’t remember much of Latin Mass. I do remember the communion rails and women covered their heads with a veil. I was basically raised in a Novus Ordo. I loved the songs sang in the church but I didn’t understand the faith during that time. My two eldest sisters have left the church in their late teens. After attending a Latin Mass where a church serves both NO and LM. The LM was always full. There are people outside listening LM through the speakers. Their NO masses are always 25% full. The NO mass that I attended growing were always full (1970-2000). There were 100 + parishioners seated outside. Now the attendance has reduced drastically by 25%. Since the pandemic NO is basically almost empty. The only thing I found that disturbs me is how the priest raised the host in the air toward the congregation. I often asked why can’t the priest turn toward the crucifix that’s behind him?

[@TheHoggopogo]

This is the first debate I am disappointed in. Andrew was the weakest debater I’ve seen hosted. Whether or not his points were true, he is not a remotely good debater. Debating is a skill, and though Andrew more than likely has many skills that delight our Lord, debate is not one of them. I do not blame Andrew for this-Matt, you should have vetted for a better representative to defend this position (if that were possible). I say these things as a neutral entity-although I am Catholic, and my entire conversion from Protestantism was fuelled by seeking unity in the Body of Christ, I am ready and open to pursuing holiness in every radical way God would call me, even if that meant joining the SSPX. If anything, my original bias pointed me against the SSPX, but this debate was so strong on only one side, the best I can say is that I only learned anything from one side of the argument. This is not how objectively good debates are executed-good debates expand knowledge on both sides. This was an objectively bad debate. With charity, God bless.

[@FranekLuc]

Very little people knows SSPX arguments well. Andrew is from SSPX circles so he knows SSPX position. But his arguments was emotional and based on his experience only. Logic was on Jeffs side. This is very hard question. Difficult to find some soldier to defeat SSPX

[@christianbenedict4861]

He started out by not wanting to defend his own position by canonical argument. That was his losing part from the beginning. Canon law is clear.

[@marklizama5560]

"What would the Saintly Martyrs do?" That's a very good question, would they cry and complain that they're being victimized? Would they find some way to weasel their way out of their situation, through loophole and the like? Would they openly rebel against the situation? Or would they trust God, kneel down hands folded, and accept their fate?

[@JessicaSteeleLive]

Serious question for you....do you think people that are attending NO mass would die as Martyrs? I don't. Our parish collapsed during Covid-19. Many have not returned. We found TLM about 3 years ago. That mass and the priest that celebrate are saint makers. The Latin mass does not create division, it just reveals them. Check out the book the Suicide of Altering the Liturgy. It explains what was changed - something to ponder. God bless

[@marklizama5560]

@@JessicaSteeleLive are you sure? Many people criticized how the Ecclesia Dei communities responded Traditionis Custodes, the SSPX itself caved to questions regarding the mRNA injection, Our Lady of Fatima, back before Vatican II happened said that souls were falling into Hell then, like snowflakes in a blizzard; the Latin Mass didn’t make enough martyrs to stop the Protestant Revolt, or other calamities in pre-Vatican II times, and Our Lady of Akita’s prophecy seem to suggest that there will be a time in the - probably near - future where we won’t have access to any Mass, TLM or NO. I’m not saying that the NO and TLM are equal but to reduce things down to just the Mass is problematic, in the end it really comes down to how receptive one’s will is to God’s Grace.

[@JJ-og2jq]

I attend TLM (and have attended SSPX in the past) and recently listened to the whole of the Letter To Confused Catholics, I've never heard a more clear embodiment of the divisive mentality that is talked about so often

[@michaelspeyrer1264]

Which is an ends justifies means argument. And that’s invalid.

[@JJ-og2jq]

@@michaelspeyrer1264 unfortunately that's exactly it

[@michaelspeyrer1264]

@@JJ-og2jq Unfortunately this is considered a invalid argument in Catholic moral theology. This is called consequentialism. But for some reason supporters of the SSPX dismiss this fact.

[@teddyspaghetti9566]

Salvation of souls is the highest ideal of the church. You people would accuse St. Athanasius of being divisive for still carrying out his duties despite being excommunicated. Keep coping.

[@michaelspeyrer1264]

@@teddyspaghetti9566 Who is you people? I don't' speak for anyone. NOPE, because St. Athanasius was obedient to the Pope, the priests and bishops of the SSPX are not. This, therefore, is an unlike comparison. Also, although fans of the SSPX love to try and use Athanasius to support their fallacious thesis of justification of Marcel,, he was, 1) NEVER EXCOMMUNICATED. Marcel was. He was threatened with it based off of fallacious charges against him. Marcel broke canon law after direct warning by the Pope including the canons he was breaking. He was exiled from his diocese from eastern prelates and civil leaders not the Pope, so that had no ecclesiastical authority. Marcel self exiled himself from the Church including the authority of the Holy See in everything that he did from the time the Holy See withdrew support for the SSPX, as well as told him to not ordain men to the priesthood which retired archbishops don't have the authority to do unless given it by Rome, for which he had his priestly faculties revolved, which he ignored and continued to ordain men, celebrate mass, hear confessions, and confirm anyway. 2) Athanasius was exonerated BY THE POPE, who he never spoke out against him whom he was obedient to. Marcel was not, nor did he repent and be reconciled to the Church before his death, meaning he died in formal excommunication for schismatic acts. You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.

[@ericyeo8824]

Tqvm Jeff Cassman! You nailed it....Salute!!!

[@Aryanne_v2]

Andrew says the Society is continually disobedient yet refuses to give examples.

[@israelzarate2020]

A different question which I think would be worth exploring is not whether they are in Schism, but wether they are in good standing or full communion

[@robertcarlin4876]

There is no such thing as “partial communion”. Cardinal Marx is “in good standing and in full communion”. What matters is what’s right.

[@robertcarlin4876]

@Vince Perri no.

[@Tabletop274]

@Vince Perri Do I receive only partial grace when I receive the sacraments from them, but full grace when I go to the diocesan priest?

[@khwlam]

@@Tabletop274 Validity is one thing. Liceity (ie: legality of administering/receiving the sacrament) is another. Would you go to a sedevacantist or Old Catholic priest? Here is what Pius XII says about the matter: "Granted this exception, it follows that bishops who have been neither named nor confirmed by the Apostolic See, but who, on the contrary, have been elected and consecrated in defiance of its express orders, enjoy no powers of teaching or of jurisdiction since jurisdiction passes to bishops only through the Roman Pontiff as We admonished in the Encyclical Letter Mystici Corporis...Acts requiring the power of Holy Orders which are performed by ecclesiastics of this kind, though they are valid as long as the consecration conferred on them was valid, are yet gravely illicit, that is, criminal and sacrilegious." Ad Apostolorum Principis

[@jackdaw6359]

@@Tabletop274 Orthodox get full grace from their sacraments but I would not want to be Orthodox.

[@matthewrobson6335]

Great job Jeff 👍

[@Araedya]

Question for Jeff - some bishops specifically tell Catholics not to attend SSPX masses and state they are not in communion with Rome. These aren’t even necessarily liberal bishops but conservative ones (AB Aquila/Denver) that seem relatively trad friendly etc. Thoughts on this?

[@JeffCassman]

Pray that they will, in humility, accept the decision of the Holy Father in this matter.

[@junevendetti2850]

There is confusion being sown among the faithful. So many Catholics keep claiming this schism thing. I think the whole thing is ridiculous! I found them to be a great teaching order. I watch their podcasts often.

[@matthewrobson6335]

Sounds like Andrew would never change.

[@thelogosproject7]

Not sure what you mean

[@matthewrobson6335]

@@thelogosproject7 Hi Andrew

[@thelogosproject7]

I’m not Andrew, my name is Dom. What did you mean by he would never change? As in change his stance on the SSPX?

[@Сашаромисмерть]

@@thelogosproject7 hi Andrew

[@fragilechrissy]

It is just no argument that they were growing in the last 50 years. The FSSP also is growing ,they are a part of the holychurch FSSPX is definitly not a part of the catholic church .It is seperated and chained in the spirit of Lefevbre who definitly did not want to obey the popes.And he only believes in himself but not in God! They are making an Idol out of Lefevbre ,he is no saint at all.He has not obied the church since 1975.

[@RyanGBanister]

Calumny is a sin.

[@martiaustin9059]

Full union and full communion are post Vatican II terms. That is ambiguous language that has been used to cause confusion and doubt to subvert the Church.