Piston Rings 2

Instagram: mr_crispin
In this video I discuss various details relating to the manufacture of cast iron piston rings.
This video is a follow up to my previous video "Making Piston Rings"

[@theonlybuzz1969]

So how many people held their breath whist Mr Crispin fitted the piston rings? Me for one ☝️

[@user3141592635]

If one can not get one in the correct size, one can copy a special tool for mounting rings by modifying snap-ring pliars, opening when the handles are closed. They are inserted in the gap with both jaws and upon squeezing the handles, the ring is expanded.

[@MRCNC1967]

I was on the edge of my chair!

[@mopedmarathon]

I wouldn’t be totally against “piston rings 3, return of the (machining) Jedi.” More Mr Crispin content is always appreciated. Keep up the great work!

[@gyrogearloose1345]

@ 31:55 Mr Crispin 'encourages' his parts to fit together. Such a gentleman! And I think earlier he 'introduced' them. Shades of the old days in England which I - personally - find very refreshing. Not a bad chap, this young Crispin . . .

[@ElTelBaby]

When I went 4 a Job... ... I had the misfortune of explaining;... I got the sack... For being just a measly 5 Thou' out... The interviewer said;... That's not a problem here... We don't work to those tight tolerances... ... When ask where I had worked before... ... I replied Nat West Bank

[@brucewilliams6292]

Brilliant!!! What a great joke. :)

[@thomasreed325]

Mr. Trimble's material was first published in "Strictly IC" (SIC) magazine in the late 80's or early 90's, I believe back issues are still available. I have used his formulas with great success for rings up to 4" in diameter. Have enjoyed all your videos, thanks for your time.

[@bubster1981]

ive put a lot of engines together over the years without thought, tearing open parts bags etc ....but you gain an appreciation for the parts when you have to make them

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

Good point

[@bubster1981]

@@MrCrispinEnterprises i like your clamping method with a sleeve ...original idea?

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

Just my version of something that was written out in the comments on the previous video

[@mchiodox69]

Hopefully you can hear that loud round of applause from the rest of us! Awesome job and great video. Many thanks!

[@levitated-pit]

"lets see if i can mke it worse" ... great quote!

[@onlooker251]

I always work on the premise that I can cock it up as well as anybody else!

[@derekgee4223]

What a pleasure on a Sunday afternoon, thank you Mr Crispin

[@cookedgoose7717]

So you are now Lord of those rings - thank you for making me smile on a horrible cold and rainy day

[@TERRYB0688]

Mr Crispin, yet another inspirational video at 69 years of age you can teach an old dog new tricks 👍

[@rayjennings3637]

Totally agree with you about the satisfying sound of the piston running in the bore. I was an Army Vehicle Mechanic for 14 years and although I've never touched a lathe in my life and the only mechanical benchwork I've done is basic hacksawing, chiselling, filing, tapping and threading I am totally absorbed in your videos. Thankyou for all the time you take, in recording your work, editing it and uploading it.

[@jimmybryan6760]

These two piston ring vids are my intro to your channel. Very impressed with your methods and presentation. On the subject of width of the ring face causing increased friction, I still remember being shocked in my 1975 H.S. physics class when we were told that surface area and amount of friction were unrelated. We were taught that friction was entirely dependent on pressure between two moving objects, regardless of contact area. I'd be curious if Mr. Trimble addressed that in his writings.

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

Thanks. From memory no, he set it out as I mentioned. Although I geuss he is assuming that width is the only variable in that section of discussion.

[@LaLaLand.Germany]

I very,very much enjoy Your wonderfully quiet lathe. That slight hum is strangely relaxing. A really beautiful machine with a nice view- well done.

[@gregsochor]

What a delight to for once see someone on KZbin, who works to a proper engineering standard. I'll admit I fell in love with the channel the moment when you properly stoned the edge of those piston rings... Guess, I'll stick around.

[@HairyNumbNuts]

Excellent video. Thank you. Extremely enlightening, not just on piston ring design, but the machining methodology itself was great.

[@toolbox-gua]

I had to check it back into the previous video, Your pijamas. I did not noticed. I’m totally addicted to your teaching and videos.

[@kevinhealy3479]

as someone who has fitted many piston rings I am so glad you thinned it out. The ring seals on the edge in the piston groove not the distance from the bottom of the of the ring groove. Well done.

[@DudleyToolwright]

You really have a wonderful narrative style. You give me a lot to aspire to.

[@howder1951]

Another very interesting discussion on procedures and details. I don't need any rings, but it is nice to knowI may have the knowledge and ability to make them if needed. Thank you Mr. Crispin for widening our horizons, much appreciated (like the fish n; chips) thanks and cheers!

[@colinwellman9480]

The cleverest engineer I ever worked with started life as an apprentice for Wellworthy engineering in Lymington Hants. His final position was in R&D and came to work with me when they closed in the 1980's. We had many a conversation on the science behind making pistons and rings for automotive applications. I realised then rings were far from just a circular rings of cast iron. Thanks for sharing.

[@jatag100]

Really enjoyed your thoroughness and humor. Looking forward to your next video!

[@AaronEngineering]

Nice work as per usual Mr.C. Here's a tip an old bloke taught me. Pull apart your feeler gauges and use 3 separate feeler gauges to slip your piston rings onto the piston. They slide on nice and easy. Cheers, Aaron.

[@BensWorkshop]

Whilst I have not made piston rings myself, my model engineering club recommended method involves making and heat treating the ring then finishing the OD in the lathe as you did in this video.

[@johnkneeshaw9732]

That was well worth waiting for. Thank you Messrs Crispin and Trimble.

[@michaelclark2840]

Beautiful work. I was very curious how you were going to hold a compressed ring for external machining. Magic!

[@thanotethapmarn4210]

I like you show and your idea,Thank you for your knowledge and good things, I will keep following your work,

[@EverettsWorkshop]

Being an auto mechanic, this was quite interesting for me, and the explanation of the wide rings makes sense too - you also don't have emissions regulations on steam engines that lead to thin rings, thin piston lands, short skirts, etc. Thanks for stepping us through this, at some point I would like to make a steam engine but until then I'm taking notes on what people have found success with.

[@JamesChurchill3]

The hat throw always makes me laugh.

[@Blue_4-2]

Queue 007 theme...

[@howardosborne8647]

@@Blue_4-2 can we expect the hat brim to cut through the column on the pillar drill?

[@waynec369]

I find it hysterical! I would love to see him pitch it from literally anywhere and see it land in on the same spot every time, i.e. from the kitchen, from a car, from a field, etc. Would be an awesome trademark.

[@BisonWorkshop]

again. you amaze me yet again. great job on the rings i had faith the if anyone could make it work. that it was you. have a great day from over here at the bison workshop.

[@leerogers6423]

Fond memories of unsiezing a BSA Bantam at the side of the road. A huge YESSS ! moment as the ring goes on unbroken.

[@gyrogearloose1345]

Yo! How many centuries ago was that?

[@leerogers6423]

@@gyrogearloose1345 . It was many . It was a time of long hair , flared jeans ,lager and lime and masks were only for bank robbers.

[@peterconnan5631]

I guess this response probably comes too late, but I admit to having had a Mr. Crispin-shaped hole in my education until fairly recently. With specific regard to piston ring gaps, and despite never having seen that handy design guide, I do know that rings expand in length, closing the gap as they heat up. If this is not considered in the design, it might cause a problem during operation. I am fairly sure you have enough gap, but if you had ended up with the gap you had wanted, it might have caused its' own batch of issues. Also, I am glad to see that I am not the only hobbyist who seems to spend 80% of my time making tools, jigs, fixtures and whatnot. Thank you Sir for entertaining and educating me!

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

I think in this case I would have been ok as the piston, cylinder and ring are all made of the same material meaning that they have the same expansion rate.

[@peterconnan5631]

@@MrCrispinEnterprises , you mis-understand. I am not tslking about different expansion coefficients, I mean that components expand differently due to their shape. Secondly, if the ring is getting hotter than the cylinder due to friction ( ehich it eill as it is so much smaller), it will obviously also expand more.

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

As for the magnitude of the ring expanding due to friction I'm not sure. With regards to the other topic yes perhaps although a steam engine heats up slowly and once everything is hot there would be no problem.

[@MRCNC1967]

Really enjoyed your "vise side" chat! From Piston Ring 1, my main question was how you were going to stretch them over the pistons without breaking. Obviously reducing the thickness by half greatly reduced the danger of breakage, but as another commenter mentioned below, it was definitely a cliffhanger. Great job!

[@yambo59]

what a great fit the piston is in that cylinder - still loving the hat toss as your trademark video opener

[@kaibroeking9968]

My respect for piston rings and those who make them has greatly increased! There is one more thing: full scale practice, at least on German locomotives, has always been to open up the cylinder bore by a small amount (have a step in diameter) at the end of the stroke. This recess step is so positioned that the outermost piston rings can slide over this step by a fraction of their width in order to scrape any debris, corrosion, coked up oil, etc. off the running surface into the recess. The cylinder drains would start from the lowest part of these recesses to allow any sludge to be flushed out. Probably unnecessary for a smallish engine like a model locomotive.

[@robertling9872]

Perfect, you find a way to continue with your design. Keep on moving and we will watch your next videos soon.

[@steved8038]

As usual highly entertaining, informative and humourous.Thank you

[@KarlFullerNZ]

Wow, very informative video thanks! As a fitter and turner I was extremely curious as to how you'd remachine those ODs, very clever solution!

[@danmartinrc]

Are the fish and chips required for this process or am I free to substitute other foods that come from vans?

[@kaibroeking9968]

As long as you wear your safety glasses while buying them, you should be fine.

[@larryweg]

Engineering +++ Also- Your video held my interest the entire length. Clearly spoken. Edited well. Nice job there as well.

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

Thanks

[@mjm7187]

Outstanding video and manufacturing process. Let others choose shortcuts at their peril. Personally love the detail!

[@jim9689]

I really like your honest and candid presentation when mistakes are made. As for the process here, I was somewhat surprised that you didn't break out your Dumore grinder to do the final OD machining. Using a turning tool seems more likely to move a ring in the fixture compared to using a grinder.

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

In didn't own it at the time!

[@projectsfromtheworkbench]

Excellent video! Wish I had seen this before I made my pistons rings...i now feel like I must go back and redo my janky work

[@FredMiller]

Excellent analysis and recovery process. BTW, I once went out to my mailbox wearing my shop apron and an optimizer with it in the up position on my head. I definitely got a couple of questionable looks! Keep up the great work! Fred

[@pamelacoleman1048]

I say mr Crispin old boy, I for one thought this was absolutely fantastic to watch thanks.

[@brucewilliams6292]

Your videos always provoke a great deal of thoughts. Well done Mr. Crispin, very well done.

[@Jimmyzb36]

I really appreciate the talent of a thorough engineer! That’s just me.

[@Amaysing79]

Now those look more like the old rings we are used to seeing Thank you very much.

[@russellnixon9981]

There's a lot to this engineering business. Like the jokes. I'm not an engineer or model maker but find how things are made fascinating and your explanation easy to understand. Thanks for taking the time, enjoyed it.

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

Thanks

[@MD-bk7kb]

Brilliant as always, way way way beyond my machine ability, but really interesting and fantastic to watch.

[@phillipyannone3195]

Another excellent video, I particularly liked your work holding fixtures. The only thing that concerned me was the space behind the ring. Looking forward to the next one.

[@warrenjones744]

While it was a long way around, I think you and many of us learned a thing or two from this exercise. Well done and thank you for taking us along on this Journey.

[@johnnyholland8765]

I have to say your "off the cuff" creation of tooling and fixtures is quite impressive. I will also say your piston introduction and movement in the block is as we say in the states "smooth as glass"...

[@ROBRENZ]

Good stuff, enjoyed! ATB, Robin

[@MarlinNaicker]

Very informative .. you are a legend !!! I have learnt so much frm you .. thank you again 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@mariellecb1]

Fascinating! Excellent demonstration of top-notch troubleshooting and setting things right. Well done you!

[@DavidMeehan-gn5hd]

Crispin thanks for your great videos, l am envious of your machine tools and equipment and enjoy your analytical approach to solving problems. Merry Christmas and best wishes for the new year, and your degree studies. David Meehan.

[@robw53]

As always, a fantastically well presented, informative video, with just the right amount of humour! Bring on the next video! After recently fitting the 3” clupet rings into the cylinders of my steam loco, I know how stressful easing them over the piston is. I could almost hear my own heartbeat! Looking forward to getting them on the loco and moving onto the next part. It feels like you have been doing these cylinders for years 😋

[@chieft3357]

I'm a first time viewer and liked the content very much. So, I subscribed to watch more. I'm a retired mechanic/machinist and enjoy this type of videos.

[@rx1laser]

Great! Problem solving. Fatastic out come! Well done....Thanks for sharing!

[@thaumaturgicresearchcounci4180]

Interesting, entertaining and informative as usual, thanks Mr Crispin! I'd be interested to read that paper if it's possible to share it. I had plenty of fun and games with piston rings while designing casings for the large civil combustors during my time with RR in Derby.

[@martinsymmons2343]

Well done! Simple and elegant. Perhaps had you bought a Pi instead of fish and chips the ring gap conundrum may have been cleared up. Cheers.

[@gasgas2689]

No, the chips in the Pi would have thrown all the measurements awry.

[@RVJimD]

Very interesting, informative and timely. I’m trying to figure out why the rings on my first steam engine don’t seem to fit properly, and what my solution will be. My rings are ptfe so things are a bit different but your video has given me more things to consider. Thanks!

[@TomChame]

Very well done and an excellent explanation. Thanks.

[@paulrayner4514]

it's great that you listened to your viewers, and addressed the issues, filmed and shared well done. hats off to you (pun intended) thank you

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

Yes it's an unbeatable format leaning wise all be it a bit painful at times!

[@jonsworkshop]

Very interesting stuff, I was thinking all the way through this that your chosen rework method would also necessitate remanufacture of the pistons (shallower grooves), but I guess it doesn't really need it, so let's claim it as weight reduction (don't mention those 2 words at work, they will have you doing something else pretty quickly)! Cheers, Jon

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

Yes I think I'll go for "additional oil retention"

[@thetransformatorium7980]

Another magnificent video Mr. Crispin! Thank you. Now I'm off to the shop to make some piston rings. No, seriously! I really am! Cheers!

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

So what method have you decided to use?

[@thetransformatorium7980]

@@MrCrispinEnterprises I'm partly using the Trimble method, and partly using your method. I particularly like your method of pre-tensioning the rings on the arbor and then finish machining the O.D, so naturally I'll do it that way. I'm using a small kiln with a programable controller for the heat treating, and I'm packing the rings in charcoal to minimize scale formation. Hopefully I'll have some workable rings by morning. Fingers crossed. Cheers!

[@BillySugger1965]

Very interesting and informative, as ever. As for copyright, the copyright will be owned by the magazine which published the article, and they are still entitled to charge for access to it. So publishing a copy yourself could deprive them of their rights and land you with legal action. Your best bet it to contact them, (or their successors if it’s no longer published), and ask permission to reproduce the article. If they are unwilling, and they may well be, you could ask for a link to the article published on their site, whether free or through paid access. If you couch this as free advertising for their service, they may be very much more inclined to cooperate in making it available in some form.

[@bobvines00]

The paper was published in three issues of Strictly I.C. and I think that you'll have to purchase all three back-issues at $8.00 US each ($24.00 US + S&H): "DESIGN & FABRICATION OF PISTON RINGS, by the late George Trimble. The EPITOME of miniature engine ring manufacture. Issues # 7,8 & 9 … $8.00 ea. ….. TOTAL: $24.00"

[@andyreadman]

Excellent and very satisfying video Thank you!

[@martynjones8371]

So nice to see such nice work and ingenuity, on very large rings (1050mms bore) diesels, the id circumference is hammered with a chisel type tool, I believe this was to relieve the similar stress.

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

Interesting

[@Fatamus]

Fantastic video ... Thanks bud... you explained your problems and reasoning very well. ...

[@tomcren59]

Very nice recovery! Well Done!

[@cbmsysmobile]

Why do I have this feeling that the nightshirt and cap are your actual night apparel?

[@lnbwood]

When you stretched the rings over the mandrel and heat treated them to the larger than cylinder size, the ends of the rings could not compress into a circle the same size as the bore because they were unsupported at those ends. Therefore some portion of each end of each ring remained at the oversize curvature of the heat treating mandrel. I do enjoy your video presentations. We all learn together :-)

[@leaflee2066]

How North of England is "had a visit from the fish and chip van" magic!

[@davesden]

Really love the videos. Don't leave us waiting too long for your next installment.

[@magnusklahr8190]

What a great video! And what a great sense of humor!!😂👍💪

[@proluxelectronics7419]

Man, You do good work, Big Thumbs Up....

[@haroldpearson6025]

Give them a chance to bed in when the loco is finished. My 5in 0-6-0 now 5 years old. With the engine cold and in reverse its impossible to push the engine forward due to the compression! Another idea is to put a tiny shallow grove in the piston between the rings. The idea being oil is trapped in the groves which helps in particular from a cold start. After heat treatment I finished machined my rings by clamping them closed on a mandril as shown in your video. I have never felt the bore of the rings to be very important, that the rings should float on the diameter but a good fit on the sides.

[@andypostlethwaite6101]

Excellent video in both piston ring making 1 and 2 considering a beginner with such a good outcome. Mr Crispin I hope she steams well. I notice that you have piston valves instead of slide valves, which is the same as the Britannia class loco I m restoring. For the rings in the piston valves it will be the same technique as your piston rings only bit smaller in producing rings for the bobbins for the piston valves.. Thank you for you knowledge and confidence as I m a first hand in doing model engineering. Sounds much better than buying rings.

[@bruceferrero8178]

Very interesting work. Always better to have a slightly larger gap than not enough, will save them as parts heat up.

[@Robonthemoor]

Chickened out! my wife heard you say that in the terms of your context, she’s still laughing 😂 I just love your humerus angel 😂👍

[@andrewdolinskiatcarpathian]

Definitely enjoyed watching this excellent video. Thank you. 👏👏👍😀

[@davesden]

Thanks for clarifying the pyjama part

[@James-fs4rn]

👍 very nice save and some fine craftsmanship as always!

[@stevebark4873]

For cast iron rings I always allowed .0015” gap per inch of bore. This is enough to allow for expansion from heat. Great videos!

[@HalfJobGeorge]

What a lovely flat green lawn you have!

[@Hydrogenblonde]

Very good video, great machining but a long winded process. Turn and bore a hollow cylinder of iron with ID slightly smaller than the ID of the expanded ring and OD slightly larger than the expanded ring. Mill a slot lengthwise in that iron "tube" the width of the ring end gap. Machine another "tube" from a soft material like aluminium with a ID that will close the end gap of the split iron tube you have made, press the split iron tube into the aluminum tube. Put the aluminum tube with the split iron tube inside it in the lathe, face it and bore the iron to the finished ring size. Now turn both the aluminum and iron to the finished diameter of the ring for the width of one ring plus the parting tool width. Part off a ring. The ring will expand open as it is parted off. Repeat the process for as many rings as the material will allow. No heating. No dial indicators.

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

Very clever!

[@Hydrogenblonde]

@@MrCrispinEnterprises Grind a angle on the nose of the parting tool so it breaks through near the ring you are parting off first. This will avoid a sliver of metal being left on the back of the ring. Also make the parting tool width at least as narrow as the ring or maybe even more narrow. The hard part is getting the right iron. But that's always a challenge, ring manufacturers regard the exact composition of their rings as "Top Secret".

[@fladder1]

Might I suggest to contact the people behind the youtube channel "Lawfull masses" on the questions of copyright/publishing issues? (might be worth trying to track down the writer and ask) Also, as always an excellent video, greatly appreciate the time and effort you go through to show us your hat throwing skills! And I am really interested in both the article and any follow up videos

[@haroldpearson6025]

Mounting the rings on the piston I made a tapered mandrill to slide the rings down. This expanded them to the size of the piston.

[@peachmunich]

Nice job! I highly respect your patience and well thinking about all before getting started with the next step.

[@derykgillman2644]

This is not my own theory, it has been published before, but I know it works from experience - I have just built the cylinders for a 5 inch King - 4 rings for each bobbin and 2 rings for each cylinder. 24 rings! It is easy and quick. Make the initial tube exact cylinder bore size and use the 25th rule for bore, part off rings, saw cut a gap with a hobby 'razor' saw then use a flat screwdriver blade to open gap - not excessively, warm evenly with a gas torch until they drop off into an oil bath (approx. red heat). Job done works every time. With the sort of ring section you had originally they would not go on the piston successfully. Also since you said, I can taste those fish and chips!

[@clivewood2148]

Absolutely fascinating - many thanks! 🤓👍

[@daveticehurst4191]

Successful conclusion. Well Done Crispin. Did you know that the Fish & Chips Van was coming in advance, and you was waiting outside, or did he play a tune like the Ice Cream Vans do ? and then you rushed out ?

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

Yes a tune like the ice cream van and I had to rush out! Cheers

[@MRCNC1967]

@@MrCrispinEnterprises I wish we had a Fish and Chips van coming around where we live in the states. Luckily there are a couple "British style" pubs in town and I would like to think they make a reasonably good facsimile of the authentic product, but really have no way of knowing since I've yet to visit the UK to try out the real deal.

[@lanceburger3789]

I worked in a shop over 20 yrs. . The rings we made from castings were ground flat within .0005 . I'd lock them up (depending on the order) 10 -15 at a time and turn them down to the orders specs and gap them ready to install . They had to be light tight when checked in a ring gauge . I checked each and every one including the end gap ..

[@stevenking6400]

34:36 very professional, not even a smirk on your face when talking about "stretching a ring"

[@TONYJUD57]

A bit involved! i'l say, Learned some stuff today, Many thanks for that. Stay safe Mr Crispin.

[@Engineerd3d]

Certainly the study of the error was enlightening, the methods used to rectify the issue was methodical as well as very informative.

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

Thanks

[@dinsdalepiranah1189]

@@MrCrispinEnterprises Two sroke engines have pinned rings. It stops the rings rotating and the ends getting caught in the ports.

[@pravado81]

Excellent come back from disaster by having to making another set. By the way I saw my honing stone in use. You can send it back anytime now. No questions asked.

[@tmbevtfd]

I get that concept, stretching the ring from the gap by being perpendicular to the gap face essentially providing a linear force as opposed to a levering force. Spreading from the gap’s inside edge makes the opposite side of the ring a “hinge” stress at that point so that’ll definitely distort circularity. Very clever fixturing of those rings by the way. I was wondering how you were going to hold them for the OD’s.