Planetary Intelligences vs Planetary Spirits

[@eric_purdue]

Thanks for name-checking my translation! Agrippa's text is often misunderstood as encyclopedic. Instead, it's a text that was intended to be read as a whole. His treatment of daemon is fairly complex, and he is explicit that daemon is a non-moralistic term by itself. His text is also a patchwork of different sources, so sometimes discrepancies pop up sometimes. He generally agrees that daemons are intermediaries. Not really like angels, but more terrestrial. They are above humans spiritually, but lower than other spirits. This means they understand something of human AND spiritual nature. This also means that some daemons work against human good, but others work for human good. In this example, I suspect Agrippa is using a source that is taken out of context, and frankly isn't entirely immediately congruous with the rest of his book. One interpretation could be that the intelligences are on a higher, more pure spiritual plane, so they act towards good, and the daemons are on a lower more terrestrial plane, and thus (in this context) are more corrupt. In other places, daemons are also good. This is consistent with certain translations of the Hellenistic houses in astrology, where the 11th is the house of the good spirit/daemon, and the 12th is the evil. The Part of Spirit can also be translated as daemon, so a lot of this is inherently part of Hellenistic astrology too. Agrippa picked up on some of this through Firmicus Maternus. In this conception, daemons are part of every aspect of the world. I compare this astrologically with "good" being like the good houses in astrology: life, health, friends, being recognized for your skills, etc. "Evil" is equated with the bad houses: illness, death, etc. So daemons can act FOR our interests or AGAINST them. Like astrology, it's more qualitative than moralistic.

[@CyrilNarayan]

intelligences and daimons are the same emanation with two faces. It's the same force, but not the same purpose.

[@eric_purdue]

@@CyrilNarayan My class discusses the history and development of daemon/daimons.

[@YouNolf]

Doesn't Agrippa expressly say that each planet has an intelligence for good things and a daemon for bad things, though?

[@eric_purdue]

@@YouNolf he does but it’s very contextual. He is explicit in other places that daemons can be good. In the context of the planetary sigils, they are used for evil.

[@YouNolf]

@@eric_purdue I see, so you wouldn't use the daemon's sigil in astrological talismans (Picatrix style), but the intelligence yes (if the talisman were for benefic purposes)? Also, I never understood why some planets have planetary intelligence and also planetary intelligenceS and intelligences of the intelligences. What are all these used for?

[@KJ-fx1se]

I think Cinnamon may need to be in front of the camera! He’s a star ⭐️ Great topic!

[@neslihancolley7058]

I love this and definitely would love more of these topics 🌠

[@mschell8022]

Daimon in the ancient Greek translation just means neutral spirit as force or thought. The concept has no moral or immoral element to it. When Socrates says his daimon compels him to philosophically challenge his fellow philosophers, he just means his ability to reason drives him.

[@gimelresh]

Cinnamon and Tango, which is the intelligence and which the daimon?

[@capuletca]

A really good way to see this is through the 3 Gunas presented in Vedic philosophy. Sattva, the sustaining, pure quality, is the angel (the perfected archetype of the planet), Rajas the quality of motion, movement, and energy, is the intelligence (the one that gives a command to be executed), and Tamas the quality of grossness, solidification, and physicality, is the daemon/spirit (as they are the ones that physically manifest the qualities of the planets). Together, the angel has the information of the highest qualities of the planet, the intelligence creates a bridge and translates that to the daemon, which then the daemon executes its command and gives physical form to. Without the angel, the daemon simply executes the karma that is there, hence why so many people warn against working with daemons, if a natal planet is badly placed, the daemon will just exacerbate and solidify more of the pattern there. Without the intelligence, the daemon cannot receive instructions from the angel. And without the daemon, the angel cannot manifest its perfected qualities within the physical world. Now this is just my perspective, which has made the most sense to me after exploring many different concepts, especially Vedic astrology (though I do tropical Vedic).

[@banksofchaos93]

Very interesting take - I don't know enough to say more than that yet, but you're inspiring me to fix that :)

[@astraeusgodofthestars676]

This is really an interesting take on the subject. Is it safe to say that the Theoi or Greek Gods associated to the planets-i.e. Cronus for Saturn-is in fact the planetary spirit of the planet? And if so, is it okay if I do a "puja"(by the way, I read your other comment) to this god or spirit associated to that planet? Because I really love ritual worship magic and astrology and I would like to do that with the Seven Deities associated to the seven classical planets.

[@capuletca]

What I have seen with western deities, is many times, they are a conglomeration of all 3 in varying degrees, hence why they and their myths are so dynamic. The angel/intelligence/daemon idea originated from Christianity and Neo-Platonism, in which they separate the gods of old into different aspects. So Kronos is NOT the spirit/daemon, but rather likely relates to aspects of the angel, intelligence, and spirit/daemon all in one package. I can't fully speak on this considering I'm not the most well-informed on the Greek gods, but the Sumerian gods are like this, and the Greek gods are adaptations of them. Also, each deity shows a different colour as to how it relates to the planet it's attributed to though, the idea is to work with the one which would be easiest to integrate based on your own already present relationship with the planet. In Vedic astrology, for example, using the Hindu gods, the Mahavidyas are used for debilitated (fallen) planets in a chart, while if they are exalted they may be recommended the Vishnu avatara that represents that planet. Go with what you feel called to is the way I recommend. The gods are a more "raw" and explosive experience (as it is trying to integrate all the qualities of the planet at once), while working with the angel/intelligence/daemon hierarchy provides a cleaner more linear experience. This is why in magickal systems like the Golden Dawn, deity work is something that happens later down the road. @@astraeusgodofthestars676

[@astraeusgodofthestars676]

@@capuletca Oh I see, that was a beautiful reply of yours. Thank you so much! I didn't know that in Vedic astrology they have different deities to worship based on whether the planet in the natal chart is fallen or exalted, that was really interesting. If only I knew them hehe. But I'm more into the Greek gods because I was able to learn first the practice of Theurgy (it's like the Greek Version of Puja) and the Orphic Hymns related to the Gods/Theoi. There are these gods that I think calling my attention right now and I think I can assigned them to the seven classical planets instead of the traditional one like Cronus for Saturn, or Aphrodite for Venus, or Apollo for the Sun, etc. Here are the list that I made: *Thanatos (god of peaceful death)-Saturn *Dionysus (god of wine and festivities)-Jupiter *Athena (goddess of war and wisdom)-Mars *Herakles (Demigod Hero and Savior of Humankind)-Sun *Tyche (goddess of luck and good fortune)-Venus *Astraeus (god of the stars and the art of astrology)-Mercury *Hecate (goddess of the crossroads, ghosts, and Moon)-Moon I was hesitant at first if I could call on these gods to represent the seven classical planets in my natal chart-especially that I have Jupiter in Capricorn and Sun in Aquarius in my natal chart with Saturn conjunct Venus in my first house of Pisces-I have a very awful birth chart and I was hoping that by having devotion to these deities, at least they would change my awful fate and destiny and hear my prayers. 😞

[@capuletca]

@@astraeusgodofthestars676 well, Venus in the first in Pisces (assuming ur using Whole Sign houses) is a great placement for devotion. There is a lot to take into consideration though. In Vedic we have the Navamsha chart, which shows how one intrinsically devotes themselves to a quality of Consciousness (a planet) and a planet can be debilitated in the Rasi chart (the normal one) but exalted in the Navamsha. This shows the person sucks ass when working with the energy, but they have a capability to devote themselves towards the greater manifestion of the planet despite their lack of experience with it. I say just go for it, if these gods want to work with you, there will be an intuitive reciprocation, and if they don't reciprocate interest, then it may just not be the proper time to work with them yet (mind you, speaking dualistically here but the gods are simply qualities of Consciousness we've yet to integrate within this limited meat avatar, but at the core of out Bring, we are One with them). And don't pay too much attention to the limitations in ur chart, analyze your strengths, work with them, and minimize ur weaknesses, then propell all that towards ur own liberation and you'll rewrite the karma and fate implied by the chart with time, effort, and practice. Destiny cannot be changed, but everyone at their core is destined towards Greatness (fate is not Destiny), the realization of their very Being, which is liberative and stands free from karma as it is not a limited pattern playing itself out but rather everything that IS. Karma/fate though is simply cause and effect, from the actions we take, what we cultivate within our own subjective perception, and react to situations. Deities love devotional approaches btw, cuz it shows you seek nothing for urself other than to express your Destiny. Only criticism in is I'd switch Tyche and Dionysus. I've never worked with them but based on the qualities u listed, Tyche fits more with Jupiter (fortune and luck) and Venus with Dionysus (partying, festivities, fun)

[@banksofchaos93]

Love this topic

[@osirisra1476]

My conception of astrology is pretty simple: all astrological energies live inside of you. You are activating/becoming aware of what's already in you, because Mind is everything, you are God/Goddess, you are all that can ever exist and ever has existed. That's why I never "pray" or "petition" for any kind of energy outside of myself. All a petition is doing is activating latent energy within me. That's why to me the first step of practicing astrological magick is mastering your own chart.

[@capuletca]

As above so below. As within so without. The microcosm is a mirror of the macrocosm, vice versa. In Vedic philosophy and Vedic astrology, one of the remedial practices is Puja, which is devotional/worship rituals towards a deity which are representative of the planet. However, Puja is done as a means to MERGE with the qualities of the deity, to recognize they are already a part of ourselves, only thing is from an outer perspective, it may seen as a worship to something, when it's really a worship of Self.

[@hackexpert0003]

These are medieval superstitions and similar to Kabbalah (tree of life and spirits hierarchy) !

[@woooohooooayo]

ty

[@christinacunali669]

Thanks ❤

[@paulmagus2133]

the problem is polarizing daemons, as , like in the material world, these beings can be agents of destruction and the positive creative forces at the same time, even entities like jupiter, when in an unfortunate position can bring overindulgence and exaggeration leading to problems. to call celestial spirits only negative sounds unbalanced, they can help or hinder depending on angles in a natal moment.

[@thebanished87]

Daimon is actually Greek for Spirit

[@mschell8022]

10:55 You're so polite haha, just say the position you're criticizing is irrational. Because it is, you're totally consistent.

[@johnnewton8017]

Orange cat activities.