Planing Southbend Lathe Bed

This video is of the planing of a Southbend 10" long bed that I did this past summer. As I recall the bed was 48" long. It was quite worn. There was also an odd bend at the headstock wherein at the end of the bed the last 10" slopped upward about 0.006" above the plane of the bed, and was also bent slightly toward the back as well. I have no idea why. The entire bed also had a slight "S" shape to it in the horizontal plane as can be seen in cutting the backside of the headstock Vee and the final cutting of the back side. However this was so small that it does not raise questions for me.
By the time the video begins the base had already been planed. The bed is long and thus has support pads mid-way in its length. Since these pads are needed for support while planing, the base must be machined flat to insure that all pads are in the same plane. Planing of the base for a lathe with a center foot requires that the tops of the Vees be planed first while the bed is allowed to sag by supporting it only at its ends. Then flipping the bed over and clamping these Vee tops to the table insures that the base will be machined in the plane of the sagging bed. This intern insures that when the base is clamped to the table the bed will be in the plane of the sagging bed at rest.
To cut the Vees the slide is angled and then adjusted for height to just clear the flats between the ways. Then the slide is locked and feeding is done horizontally. The DRO is used to set the spacing between the Vees. After moving the head, a new register is selected and zeroed. This will be the finished position for the opposing way. The head is then backed away from this position and cutting commences.
Of note is that at 13:30 when planing the headstock flat, when I stopped to measure the height between it and its Vee I noticed that I had forgotten to plane the backside of the central Vee. Rats! This meant that I needed to zero the Y axis, switch to another register and re-angle the head to cut the side of the Vee. After this I cold again set the head vertical and resume cutting the flat.
Incidentally, when setting the slide to 45 degrees I placed a large Vee-Block on the table and indicted to its Vee as a reference. And since the flat-tool had already been indicated to be within a tenth in 1.5" of square to the slide travel, I could be quite sure the tool would be 90 degrees to the Vee-Block surface. This is one of the keys to planing a lathe bed using a flat-tool: carefully set up the tool once, and then swivel the head to angle the tool. And is why the "Rats!" above was not in stronger language.
The final 45 seconds is of cleaning up the backside. I like to do this so that it is later easy to determine the alignment of planing, but is unnecessary if this edge is flat and in axis.
It was after this that I noticed that I had forgotten to cut the tops of the Vees. Rats again! I think it is time that I use a checklist to help keep my wits on these jobs. I had to set up the flat tool again for that, but there is no video of cutting them. All three were cut to that same height and to match the same width as the unworn portion of the bed when it arrived - the latter determined by the distance from the flat to the top of the small Vee-Block placed on the way.
I consider machining these flats to be important, not just to maintain clearance in the carriage, but they are "witness surfaces" that tell how the bed was planed. Using them and the planed backside, it can later be determined if the bed is still of the shape as when it was planed (hopefully relaxed and straight), and they also indicate how the bed was setup.
Also noteworthy is that you can see that I wrote "32" on the backside of the front way after planing it. This is a horizontal measurement, but it is also from approximately when the cutter first begins to cut. The number is high because of the bent upward headstock end. As measured from the table, the planing lowered the Vees 0.026", while if 32 thousandths were taken from each side it would have lowered it 0.032".
I did not cut the flats between the ways even though the wear suggested that it might be necessary. The owner was going to place a filler on the carriage ways to maintain leadscrew alignment and so there would be no interference. I have never had to cut these surfaces, and I do not relish the idea of re-stamping the serial and model numbers.

[@lexashpik]

Как же напряжённо я ждал когда "возьмёт везде". ))

[@duron700r]

Some might find it boring but it really was very satisfying to watch and it's neat to see the wear patterns that were corrected! Neat video!

[@emersonkluge343]

It's not boring, it's planing.

[@duron700r]

Quite correct! :-) And a whole hour later I got the joke! Oof!

[@n9viw]

@@emersonkluge343 #facepalm LOL

[@brianluck84]

723k views, it's more popular than you think.

[@weltraumprasidentsuperstar5871]

I Germany we say "Das war sehr spanend"

[@jmumbauer]

So cool to see an old machine being given a new lease on life.

[@Tankliker]

Probably also pretty cost effective if considering the price of the material and the casting process itself.

[@Arvipa.]

If maintained properly this kind of machines could have 15 times the lifetime of modern machinery

[@Tankliker]

@@Arvipa. very questionable claim

[@Arvipa.]

@@Tankliker I’ve seen lathes that are 70+yo working better and more precisely than most of the new stuff without the need for a specialized technician coming every 6 month to work out an electronics problem 😅

[@Tankliker]

@@Arvipa. I have a lathe build in 1966 at my current workplace. Mofo has a tolerance of like 0,2mm and the fuse probably was directly taken out of a tank for that motor.

[@erneststorch9844]

You couldn't have planned a Waner & Swasey turret lathe bed like that . They were hardened to 60 rc . I plained turret lathe beds that were raw castings . Nice job on the bed though . I did plan old turret lathe beds for strips. The chips came off in little chunks until you cut through the case harding . What was left cut like butter. That was fifty years ago at their Solon road plant in Ohio. It's to bad they went out of business . It was a fine company that made a great product. I enjoyed working there very much and learn a lot.

[@morpheusduvall]

Shame most of the big names are gone now, long before I was born. Hendey Machine was about a half hour away from my house, had Waterbury Farrel and Farrel Birmingham nearby too, many first rate machinists in the area, got to know some of them growing up, outstanding people

[@SCARFACE69247]

You could probably buy those old machines for pennies and start your own company.

[@jeepmanxj]

You can plain hardened ways. You need a heavy machine but it can be done.

[@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391]

That's an incredible amount of wear at the headstock end. I guess about 95% of turning is done withing 2 inches of the chuck.

[@alexadams1836]

Clearly this bed is soft cast iron

[@Tom-jx9te]

Yeah, that’s usually the case unless the job was down at the other end of the bed like if they were doing long rollers

[@user-lj3ie1de6l]

Где Вы видели такой патрон. Тут скорее неправильная установка станины.

[@BH_tradie]

That's pretty normal wear on a lathe. That's what teaches apprentices how to become machinest when you have to learn how to use lathes like that. ❤

[@BH_tradie]

​@@alexadams1836 South Bends were almost all soft beds. Same as Hercus in Australia. Bloody good lathes though. I still got 1 of each in my workshop. ❤❤

[@sblack48]

Guys read the description. Mr Acheson put in a bunch of great details that will be of interest. I missed it my first time through. Thank you very much for providing that insight into how this is done. Obviously you don’t just bolt it down and pull a lever. It would be very easy to destroy a good lathe bed without an in depth knowledge of the trucks of the trade.

[@G58]

I’ve done every machining process including shaping, but I’ve never done that. Very satisfying to watch. Thank you for sharing.

[@jsihavealotofplaylists]

Hey what's your favorite? And least?

[@G58]

@@jsihavealotofplaylists Milling. I hated grinding. The silicon dust ruined my lungs.

[@stevecarlisle3323]

It's nice to have a old planer

[@angelfigueroa310]

This is so much more entertaining than any reality tv show . I can watch this for hours

[@drewcagno]

I love the rigged up chain to help hold the tool up during the return stroke. Ultra professional...

[@reesacheson5577]

Funny, isn't it. 50 years ago, in order to use tungsten carbide I needed to figure out a way to lift the tool and that is what I did. I even made the air cylinder, and it has been that way ever since. Rees

[@mikesmechanical1102]

@@reesacheson5577Appreciate the practical approach. I remember the first thing that I made on a lathe that worked was an adjustable pressure relief valve. It kept the avtur at the correct pressure for the old Holset truck turbo jet engine.

[@BruceBoschek]

Thank you for sharing this! I have read about doing this, but have never seen it done. Very good to see this old South Bend get the love it needs!

[@nickp4793]

Wow, I watched every second of the video. Thanks so much for sharing and also for your very detailed description!

[@craigtate5930]

Always nice to see your machine in operation

[@sky173]

Always a pleasure to see new content from you. I hope to be in touch in the spring! - JG

[@phillhuddleston9445]

Very interesting but at the same time it also makes me grateful that the ways on my laths are hardened and ground. Cast iron can last a decent amount of time if properly cared for but not as long as hardened ways can.

[@reesacheson5577]

That is one way of looking at it. And it is a valid one. There is another point of view, though. Hardened ways become so expensive to recondition that the machine will likely be scrapped rather than fix it. If buying the lathe new, then this may work out for the best. But if buying a used lathe, if the ways are worn, purchase may not be a wise choice. I was never able to afford sending machine parts out for reconditioning and so I have always avoided hardened or chromed ways because of this. And hardened ways are not immune to wear. Typically it is the saddle that first becomes a problem as the leading edges loose their sharpness. This traps dirt which gets sucked in between the ways. The wear propagates with the saddle becoming convex - then acting as a funnel to insure that larger grit will enter. With this the saddle becomes a lap - embedding sharp particles in the cast iron. If some of those particles are harder than 62RC then they will abrade the hard ways. So to prevent wear it is important to insure that the saddle edges remain sharp. This is true for both unhardened and hardened ways. To your point, it is also true that the hardened ones will last longer. But if the edges are kept sharp even the soft lathe beds ought to last. This, of course, assumes that for both types the ways are kept clean and lubricated, and wiped down and oiled before use if allowed to stand idle for long periods of time. The standing idle allows the grit to set into and be held by the drying matrix of lubricant. As the saddle traverses this, the leading edge of the saddle quickly disintegrates. I have three lathes left in my shop. I reconditioned the ways of each about 45 years ago. One had hardened ways and I ground them on the planer. The other two have soft ways and the beds now still show no obvious wear. Neither does the hard one. -Rees

[@adamfrench8735]

Pretty awesome. I love the attention to detail.

[@MrWhite2222]

Oh man, that's satisfying. That machine is going to be so happy now.

[@pweimer47]

It’s interesting to see this type of work being done. Thanks for sharing.

[@TheAyrCaveShop]

Fantastic work ! Thanks for sharing...the finish your obtaining is amazing ! ATB....Dean

[@mgreenl24550]

Oddly satisfying to watch. Thanks for sharing.

[@TheMetalButcher]

Thank you for the explanation Rees. This info will be critical for those who take this up after you. What a wonderful job you did on that planer, I'm sure many, including myself, would be interested if you ever choose to give it up. Thank you for what you do, I consider this a public service there are so few folks that do it affordably! Take care, Noah.

[@rcdogmanduh4440]

After 70 years my Southbend lathe could use the ways worked on!

[@Baerenson]

What a great machine!

[@raghupathyvp7105]

This is first time i seeing latha bed machining.very nice.thank you sir 👌👍💐

[@KBLIZZ333]

I've seen videos of lathe beds being ground or hand scraped but never seen this method. This is awesome !! I know my bed isn't hardened so knowing this could be an option for me is great. Just need to find someone to do it

[@reesacheson5577]

I have never seen it done either, and so I have no idea how someone else would do it. But this is how I did my 1st one 45 years ago and have done it this way ever since. Rees

[@charliemyres5450]

So cool! Thanks for posting.

[@oldgiapetto]

Great job, brought back lots of memories of sitting by a machine while my father made chips.

[@robertlawson8572]

"Great job, brought back lots of memories of sitting by a machine while my father made chips." As a guy said to me a lifetime ago... "when someone asks what I do for a living, I tell them I make swarf" What remains is the product, but I "make" swarf. And a lot of people make the wrong swarf... With carbon steel, we were taught to make swarf that was "C", "6" 0r "9" shaped, that dropped into the tray, didn't wrap, spoiling the product finish...

[@TrPrecisionMachining]

very good job....old school forever

[@kiblerjim]

Thanks for the video! Very neat!!

[@shirolee]

Amazing work!!!

[@ClintsHobbiesDIY]

Very interesting vid. I watched every second.

[@RobertBeck-pp2ru]

I have an old 9 inch South Bend That really needs this operation. Came from a rolling mill in Cleveland, given to me as junk. I don't know anyone who can do this type of repair. I only use the lathe for small short piece work. Thanks for sharing a very interesting video.

[@reesacheson5577]

If you are indeed looking to get the bed planed send me an email. If you live close enough perhaps my son could do it. If too far, I am trying to find other planers willing to do this work and perhaps there is one close enough. Rees

[@dev-debug]

Don't see many videos of planers in use, very cool.

[@andrewphillip8432]

This is awesome!

[@JaapGrootveld]

Very satisfying 😴

[@anonymousdifergent3922]

awesome job

[@jessejohnson159]

That is one BIG shaper! 😲😍😍

[@Katchi_]

Planer. Losers use emojis.

[@artmckay6704]

It's dialed in now. I could hear the deep bow where the blade was cutting air. That lathe is going to be spot on after adding and scraping some turcite.... :)

[@prezes-2977]

Naszej maszynie by się taki zabieg przydał!👍

[@MortimerKadaver]

Ma wyjebane łoże?

[@prezes-2977]

@@MortimerKadaver Tak ale już sprzedana

[@DesertMike]

Loved running a planer.

[@AirGunnerrr]

Great video

[@tireballastserviceofflorid7771]

Nicely done. I have a 1915 bed that will eventually need this done.

[@reesacheson5577]

Well, there aren't many planers left. Especially ones that are in good condition. What kind of lathe? Rees

[@tireballastserviceofflorid7771]

@@reesacheson5577 it's a South Bend contract lathe. Seems to be all original including the manual and foot locker. Recently stumbled across it on Craigslist. Have been a machines millwright for a long time. Couldn't pass it up.

[@eweunkettles8207]

will it make you have a better nights sleep

[@chemapalicio2350]

Good job & video

[@Mr.-Fab]

That is soooo satisfying 😩😩😩

[@panther105]

Don't know why, but I always assumed this would be a job for a grinding wheel attachment. This is fascinating..!!

[@reesacheson5577]

The most common method, as you assumed, is grinding. And if the ways have been hardened, grinding is the only option.

[@oneloveinus]

I love shaper content!

[@thomasutley]

Rees, excellent video, thanks for sharing. What are your thoughts about also touching up the bottom way surfaces for the rack in front and the rear anti-lift gib?

[@reesacheson5577]

Those surfaces must remain reasonably parallel to the planing and I sometimes plane them, but usually not. For the rack, several thousandths out of parallel, or in waviness should be fine. And on the back it depends on the lathe. The Southbends that I know of from that era have a anti-lift gib that accommodates variation in that the side that contacts the carriage is higher than the sliding surface. In this way, the bolts that hold it are snugged and then backed off a bit. There seems to be a wide range on most I have encountered. Further, they have seemed to use lock washers that have the effect of inducing a spring action to the gib, accommodating variation in clearance. I don't often have that gib, or the carriage, but if I do I try to adjust the angle of that gib so that it fits reasonably well. In any event, I check for parallel to the ways and decide how to handle it case by case. Rees

[@jamesogorman3287]

Whew! What a lot of wear.

[@samrodian919]

A very nice job sir! One thing I would ask is that before you start for our visual purposes is to coat all the surfaces in red Dyekem so we can see where the planer is cutting and the amount of wear still to be planed out. Many thanks for this fascinating video.

[@reesacheson5577]

Good idea. However, I might loose my markings. I use the bed itself for the drawing to mark the depths.

[@lapidacaoinvencoeseartes]

Top excelente Parabéns pelo trabalho amigo 👍 👍🤝👍😍😍👍

[@miltonvidal5820]

Muito interessante, eu jamais saberia como era feito o alinhamento do barramento de um torno, você é muito profissional parabéns

[@zooknut]

That’s awesome! As long as it’s bolted down well it should be nice and true.

[@recopakistan1520]

Casting material looking good Casting shining is good

[@backho12]

That breathing is the hydraulic pump doing it’s pumping.

[@user-bh5mz9gp2h]

В далеком 75 коллега трудился на строгальном. Было у него их два такой и маленький. Оба ленд лизовские "Цинциннати" . Впоследствии, в 84- 85 и самому довелось на мелком трудиться. Работа не высокой квалификации, строгал заготовки для штампов, матрицы, съемники, пуансоны.

[@reesacheson5577]

Google translate: "Back in 1975, a colleague worked at a planing machine. He had two of them, one like this and a small one. Both are Lend Lease "Cincinnati". Subsequently, in 84-85, I myself had the opportunity to work in small jobs. Not highly qualified work, planed blanks for dies, dies, pullers, punches." I like hearing of stories like yours. By "Lend Lease" I assume that you mean the program just before World War II where the US gave equipment to England (and perhaps Russia?). -Rees

[@user-bh5mz9gp2h]

Да, СССР.

[@user-bh5mz9gp2h]

Во время 2й Мировой.

[@guyward5137]

Something soothing about watching that

[@alanpecherer5705]

Very interesting video. You can really see the deep wear to the left of center of the lathe bed near the head (right where you'd expect it to be) I've never done this kind of work, but that seemed like a hell of a lot of wear.

[@9mmsafetyalwaysoff00]

hes only taking a few thou with those cuts so it seems like a lot had to come off

[@pgreenlaw85]

When the cut starts making “dust” instead of chips, is that just a difference in depth of cut or is something else going on here? Very cool thank you for sharing

[@reesacheson5577]

As the cutting nears its final depth the depth of cut is reduced. The final cut is made without moving the head at all and so is a "spring cut". The reason is to insure a good surface finish and to minimize deflection problems. Rees

[@cowjazz7906]

like the video,first see this process

[@bobtheblob2770]

Call this: trusting the ways of the shaper are better than the lathe ways

[@RanjeetKumar-ce1wl]

Hard work

[@bcbloc02]

That is a wide blade! Looks like it works well.

[@rosewhite---]

I did planing 62 years ago!

[@BrainHurricanes]

Will the bed ways be (case)hardened again, or just used as is plain cast ? Thanks for sharing your work.

[@reesacheson5577]

The bed was not ever hardened, and it will not be after planing. It will be scraped to finish and used unhardened.

[@mackellyman5642]

Is meehanite the material typically used for South Bend? Lots to learn; love the comment section that brings it all together in the real world IMHO. Excellent content.@@reesacheson5577

[@reesacheson5577]

@@mackellyman5642 Meehanite is a tradename which includes several types of cast iron. I do not know much about the tradename and its specifications. However, iron machine tool parts are generally made from "gray iron" - the soft form of cast iron that results from slow cooling. Carbon dissolved in pure iron forms steel, but when cool, the grains of steel can hold only 0.83% carbon - the excess being forced out of solution. Adding even more carbon to the iron will, upon cooling, force the carbon to congregate into free carbon platelets, so at between 2% and 4% carbon the iron is classified as cast iron, and it becomes littered with these carbon platelets when cooled. It is this free carbon that makes cast iron so desirable for sliding machine parts. It dampens vibration, but more importantly, it forms a slippery solid lubricant on the surface. The very high carbon qualities of cast iron lower the melting temperature, while also making it more fluid to flow well into casting molds. I think that the cast iron used in most machines beginning in late 1980's is a form of nodular iron, or "ductle iron", that has similar qualities to gray iron except that by adding magnesium its tensile strength has been increased to above its yield strength. (Lately, many people refer to this as Meehanite) This means that the iron will bend rather than break when stressed to over its yield strength. For machine tools this quality would be of little value, but I think it is used nonetheless, as it has become the standard cast iron. One advantage of nodular iron is that, because of the increased yield it can more readily be welded - the part can yield to the welding stresses without breaking. Rees

[@antongyrt4814]

Эх, красота!

[@rosewhite---]

friend in UK factory worked lathe that had bed worn 1/8 inch in 2 years due to using some super new coolant!

[@219jello]

We always avoided regrinding lathe beds as a means of rebuilding lathes. Unless you're going to make liners to go under the saddle to bring the saddle back to proper height, your feed rod and lead screws will be out of alignment due to the saddle dropping. All depends on how much wear needs machined off. Don't forget, if the bed is worn, so is under the saddle.

[@reesacheson5577]

The owner of this lathe bed is going to machine the saddle and fill it with a plastic way material to bring it back into alignment with the leadscrew. Even though on a Southbend it is simple to shim down the changegear box and end support, this lathe was so worn that using the filler seemed the best option. Rees

[@219jello]

@@reesacheson5577 ahhh I see, using Turcite way material under saddle. Yeah we've done a ton of CNC mills and lathes. We always brought everything back to OEM centerlines so ballscrews are not bound up. Good job

[@MrSuwds]

Eu já iria fazer essa mesma pergunta, pois também despertei essa dúvida. Abraços do Brasil.

[@brandontscheschlog]

Love these videos!

[@American_Made]

Awesome. I want my clausing done.

[@reesacheson5577]

With regard to getting planing work done, my son, who now owns the shop, is interested in doing these jobs and is willing to try to fit them into his work schedule. Because I have more planing experience, he would be doing the job, but I would be there with him to help. I am eager to see this planer continue to work. The first step is to collect the email addresses of those interested so that we can discuss how to go about this. If still interested please use the address in the ABOUT section. Thanks. Rees

[@viktorflaum4056]

Просто фантастика; возрождение машины к новой жизни, пробуждает прекрасные мысли!!!

[@reesacheson5577]

Thank you.

[@billyc2572]

Cool to see how much wear there is on a machine that did most its machining saddle close to the chuck

[@reesacheson5577]

The thing is, once the bed and saddle are not straight dirt gets sucked in between the two and the saddle becomes a lap. Then the wear proceeds quite rapidly - to both the bed and the saddle. The saddle becomes banana shaped making it still worse. And the worn bed near the chuck insures that the saddle will never fit the unworn portions again. Rees

[@user-yx6zf5ev1s]

Спасибо!

[@n9viw]

Watching the machine take off what looked like an astronomical amount of material made my hind end pucker up to my neck! I couldn't imagine taking that much off, and it only being 0.026! I recently purchased a '42 10R, and its ways are absolutely trashed. I doubt there's any hope to similarly resurrect it (deeply swaybacked on the front V, no idea what the saddle looks like), but maybe I can play with it while I save my pennies for something better.

[@reesacheson5577]

The typical feed rate for this is 0.005" horizontally. But because the tool is at a 45 degree angle the actual feed rate perpendicular to the edge is 0.0035" (horizontal times sine 45, or 0.707). Thus at only 0.0035" per stroke it takes quite a few and probably appears like more is being removed. Rees

[@n9viw]

@@reesacheson5577 I understand you are no longer doing this, but your son may be taking on jobs part-time. I hope he keeps with it for a little while- I've decided I'm saving my pennies to have him fix this bed, if he can. I've taken some measurements on the front way, and it appears it's down between 0.014-0.020" depending on where (and from where) I am measuring. If you have any suggestions as to an appropriate measuring method, I would appreciate any help you could provide.

[@reesacheson5577]

@@n9viw Fitz planed two beds one weekend about two months ago. So I guess there is still hope. With regard to measuring bed wear, I wrote this to an owner in an email recently: To get an idea of how much wear there is on the bed, you could attach a dial indicator to the saddle and set the stylus against one of the machined, but unused portions of the bed. Likely candidates include the flat on the top of the Vee (assuming it is a flat rather then a radius), or the portion between the Vees. These places should reflect the original plane and thus stylus deviation as the saddle traverses is likely from wear. And bed wear would help in visualizing what the saddle looks like. Of course, this will not tell you anything about way straightness. Also with the indicator, placing the saddle on an unworn bed-way (like near the tailstock end.) You might be able to tell how banana shaped the saddle is by trying to rock it on the probably pretty straight ways. That will help in determining how reasonable a scraping-only approach is. Rees

[@n9viw]

@@reesacheson5577 Thank you! I did measure from the saddle to the top of the front vee way, as well as to the unused flat between the rear vee ways, but not very exhaustively. I will do this again and map my findings in my (as yet to be started) machining notebook. I will send an email soon with my findings, and inquire about his current rate.

[@cm5838]

That thing had a hell of a dip in it

[@m.a.jr.689]

Sehr schönes Video, habe selbst lange Zeit an einer ähnlichen Maschine gearbeitet 👍👍👌👏👏

[@kurzschnautzert180]

Ich auch😃😃💪💪

[@jamies3190]

How much would it cost to do another one? I have a 13x5 southbend lathe needs this done and looks like it is right up your ally.

[@reesacheson5577]

It seems to take about 5 hours to plane a lathe bed. The longest was 8 hrs. Shortest has been 4. Shop rate is $50 and hour. But I have stopped taking in jobs because I'm getting a bit dim-witted and find it difficult to keep things in order. My son now owns the shop and it is possible that he might get interested. So far he has been too busy with other things. If you are really interested send me an email and I will try to work something out. Rees

[@reesacheson5577]

As an update, my son now owns the shopbut has another full-time job. However we have talked and he has said that he will do the planing while I supervise. We just need to have it fit into some prearranged schedule so that he can make time for it. So if you are still interested email to the address in the ABOUT section and we can discuss whether to proceed further. Of course at issue is also how far away you are from New Hampshire. Where are you located? Rees

[@nigel900]

Therapeutic. 👍🏻

[@9mmsafetyalwaysoff00]

so cool. do you double check your angle after you tilt the head? i dont trust the angles on these but my machines are super worn

[@reesacheson5577]

As I think is shown in The Flat Tool, which it appears you have now seen, I use an indicator on a Vee-Block to set the angle. Rees

[@RobertLBarnard]

This has me wondering about my Southbend 9 bed and all. What are the options and costs?

[@reesacheson5577]

The typical lathe bed seems to take about 5 hrs. My rate has been $50/hr. However, I am not yet sure that I will be planing any more beds. See the ABOUT section for more on this. Rees

[@BitterTruth123]

One can easily tell where the turret saddle spent most of it's days.

[@Dave96z34v2]

As it was cutting the chips chnaged over to powder. Im gussing the surface is hardend and soft the deeper you get. Does it need to be retreated after?

[@reesacheson5577]

No, the bed is not hardened. What is happening is that as the cutting brings the surface near to the desired size, the feed rate is decreased so as to reduce the spring, both in the tool holder and the lathe bed itself. Then the final stroke is made without advancing the tool at all. making what is called a "spring cut". That last cut is then very close to a condition in which all parts of the system, lathe bed and planer, are relaxed, thus producing a surface that closely matched that of the planer's stroke. The object is to eliminate any flexing that is due to tool pressure. That powder you saw was likely the final cut, and so the depth of cut was not enough to make chips. Rees

[@shawnhuk]

Pretty wild to actually SEE how much wear there is.

[@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391]

It's interesting that the planer sounds like a giant breathing in his sleep, whilst the traveling head shaper we have downstairs sounds like a donkey braying, but it's possibly a bit worn..

[@battleaxefabandmachine]

what does a job like that cost? I have a southbend 16 that needs it done.

[@aubrymacielpereirafilho3017]

Muito interessante valeu!!!.

[@automan1223]

So what am I seeing here when the shavings / chips appear to turn to powder towards the last cuts ? Have we cut through the harden area and are now into the soft powdery casting or are you taking much lighter cuts?

[@reesacheson5577]

This bed is not hardened. The reason the chips diminish is your second guess - that the depth of cut has been reduced. When there is a lot to remove the tool is advanced into the cut at a rate of about 0.005" per stroke. As the finished size is approached the rate becomes less to 0.001", and then 0.0005". Finally there is usually a spring cut where the tool is not advanced at all. With each of these last three stages the chip gets thinner until the last one is merely dust. Note that the tool advance of 0.005" is a horizontal movement. Because the way is at 45 degrees that becomes a 0.0035 depth of cut (0.005 x 0.707). The same goes for the lesser final cuts. Rees

[@6miler]

Awesome work! I got myself a 70 year old southbend lathe the other day. Apparently it spent its life time at a shipyard and it shows. I'd love to get this done to my lathe, but I wonder how common your big shaper is and if shops even do this sort of thing anymore.

[@reesacheson5577]

I don't know where the planers are, or if they do this work. You could ask on sites like Practical Machinist, or VintageMachines.

[@johnkeefe20]

This could be done by creep feed grinding. While the planner is OK, it is inefficient as a process. For the garage mechanic, it is acceptable, for the production shop it is not.

[@reesacheson5577]

@@johnkeefe20 Creep-feed grinding? To me, creep-feeding seems antithetical to obtaining not only straight but also parallel bed ways. Please elaborate. Rees

[@reesacheson5577]

@@jeffwombold9167 I like this subject and appreciate discussion on it. I found "Titans of cnc" but could not find anything about creep grinding. Sorry. There seemed far too many to sift through. I don't use KZbin or understand it very well. However, my problem with grinding involves the heat generated by the process. I responded to a KZbin question November, 2021. on kzbin.info/www/bejne/qnq0nZWagM-fmKc, also of planing a Southbend. It was a long reason why planing might be a better option than grinding. It was in answer to "Weld Machine" who asked why it was not being ground. It is now about the 9th comment from the top by date. I stand by the explanation still, but I accept that grinding is the likely option because very few planers in good condition exist. Also, perhaps the grinding accuracy obtained, even with the heat problems, are acceptable and no surfacing afterwards is necessary. But what about planer-mills? This becomes an even more interesting discussion when you add them to the mix. Their heat generation is similar to planers. Let's consider length of time for a single side of the 48" long way in this video cut 0.026" deep to clean: Milling: if using a 3" dia face mill with 6 teeth at 400 sfm, travel speed would be 6.1 ipm. 48" bed would take 7.87 min (7:52) per pass. Planing: at 60fpm, 48" bed: 54" stroke -> 54x2=108" per stroke (9') So, 9' / 60fpm = 0.15 (9 seconds per stroke) (6.666 strokes per min) 0.024 / 0.003 depth = 8 strokes to cut .024" deep plus 4 strokes to finish = 12 strokes = 9x12= 108 sec (1.8min, 1:48) per way. In this video, cutting 2nd way, took 12 strokes I think, Time was 3:37 to 5:29 minus one stroke because 1st did no cutting. 5.48-3.616 = 1.87 sec (1:52) minus 9 = 1:43 per way (close to the theoretical above) So when milling, one pass on one way takes 7:52 to complete. You need to get the depth right because another pass will take another nearly 8 minutes. Also, that pass is full depth - there is no spring cut. Planing, removing 0.026 (a lot) takes 1:43 per way to complete. This includes 2 very light strokes and then a spring cut. It also encourages taking exactly the minimum to clean rather than increasing depth to insure cleanup. Each extra stroke costs 9 seconds. Note an alternative: with milling you could use the side of a 1/2" carbide end mill. This would be using the planer's flat-tool concept. At 400sfm and 0.002" per tooth the travel would be 24.5 ipm or 1.95 minutes per pass (1:57). I have never seen it done this way, but I suspect if I were to mill it I would use this method. This would make the milling and planing times equal, but without the option of taking a 2nd 9 second cut if it did not clean. And no spring cut. Further note that when using the side of a small endmill, instead of a feed rate of 0.002 per tooth it could likely be doubled or quadrupled and still the mill's scallops might be acceptable. This brings the time down to 30 seconds per pass. Taking this concept further, how about not rotating the cutter at all and having the single flute do the cutting against the fast moving feeding bed? That sounds a bit like a flat-tool on a planer. And there would be no scallops, and if a spring cut is made, the spring away from the tool minimal. I disagree that planing is a garage mechanic's option. I think that is the easiest and fastest way to reliably make a 48" bed less than 0.001" TIR. It also requires the least skill. The downside is that it must be surfaced afterwords by scraping. The problem is that there are not many around anymore, and fewer still capable of doing accurate work. A further problem with planers and mills is that many newer beds are hardened. One more thing: Grinding can be extremely precise. It is capable of hitting a dimension quite exactly. But that does not help during linear accuracy contests. On planers and way grinders this is determined by the underlying transport system. I appreciate your mention of creep grinding and perhaps sending me a link to the video might help widen my perspective. Thanks! Rees

[@jeffwombold9167]

@@reesacheson5577 I can try and see if I can find some of the info on creep feed grinding for you to see. I have been in machining since grade school and have seen and owned some fairly elaborate machinery, but (now that I'm retired) some of the methods and machines are really mindblowing nowadays. In a general description, creep feed grinding is almost completely counterintuitive to what you or I would normally see. There are some in my area, but I never had the opportunity to experience one. First off, you climb grind, at a surprising depth, but very slow feed, (hence creep feed), and the whole work area is very high pressure inundated by coolant. It's almost bizarre, but it works. A lot of machine ways are ground nowadays, with some scraping done either to give a higher tolerance, (not as often nowadays), but usually to provide oil lubrication between two members. You can also use it to form grind on curved surfaces. Pretty amazing really...

[@warrenjones744]

Very nice my friend, Very nice! There was a bit of wear in those ways eh?

[@sblack48]

You can see where it was worn near the headstock. Cutter doesn’t engage there until it’s removed considerable stock

[@reesacheson5577]

This lathe is, I think, the most worn lathe bed that I have done. The carriage was rubbing on the bed and the headstock way. Rees

[@ryanbeard1119]

Theres that one dame spot for a little ways like 2 5ths the le gth od the stroke, where no chips form, are the ways bowed there so the machine is lifting off?

[@reesacheson5577]

The bed is badly worn, that is why it is being planed. The place you mention is too low for the cutter to reach. As the cutter is advanced with each stroke, the length of that low area is reduced until finally it disappears. At that moment the way has become straight, cutting ceases and the head is moved to cut the next way.

Professional machining, such a renovation would also be useful for my lathe.

[@billdoodson4232]

What sort of depth of cut are you making? Do these beds then go for grinding afterwards, or have you got a good enough accuracy and finish from the planing?

[@reesacheson5577]

With a flat-tool the depth of cut is 0.005" or less. Above that the grains tend to be torn out rather than sliced through. Near-finish cuts are 0.001" and finish cuts are 5 tenths. Then likely a spring cut is made without increasing the depth. In the case of these lathes, the final cuts are measured in the horizontal axis and so actual depth would be 0.707 that. But also, the readout has a 5 tenths resolution and so all that is really known is that the final depth is some small amount. After planing the bed is scraped. But the accuracy has already been planed in and so the scraping is for surface finish to make the way slippery. I expect a 48" bed like the one shown to be within 5 tenths within its length. But that would require it being assembled and set up such that the stresses are the same as when it was planed. Thus when setting up on the planer it is very important to try to mimic how the lathe will be setup in use. Rees

[@panamericaco]

So cool, is there anywhere to learn this? I imagine working in a machine shop you'll never encounter machines like this anymore

[@reesacheson5577]

I have written a paper on planer work, but I don't know of much else. There is a 2 volume set of books, "Machine Shop Practice", that has a chapter on planers. It's a good book. Rees

[@panamericaco]

@@reesacheson5577 thanks, i'll see if i can find them in europe

[@user-gb2xv7mx6f]

Какие поверхности были приняты за базу, при установке на стол строгального станка?

[@reesacheson5577]

"What surfaces were taken as a base when installing a planer on the table?" Re-wording the question as: "What surface is used as a reference on the lathe bed?" As stated in the description, I set the bed on parallels so that the bed sags. Then I cut the top edges. The bed is flipped and those edges are clamped to the table and the base is planed. Flipping it upright again, the base becomes the reference. Then I line up the ways to the planer. I hope that you can understand. I am sorry I do not speak Russian.

[@blinddogroofer]

I think the checklist is a good idea. I have a 54" long 9" south bend lathe. CUrious what the cost would be for scraping? I also have a 3 footer that for sure needs some work. These things were built to last, nice to see someone reconditioning those that were used hard/roughly.

[@reesacheson5577]

Are you asking about just scraping, or doing it after the bed has been planed? I would only consider doing the latter. The former would take far too long for me as I would also be making the bed straight and parallel and would likely cost 5 times as much as the planing and scraping. Even so, I thought that I had scrapped my last bed this past summer. My hands and arms don't have the stamina anymore. But you asked how long it would take, not if I would do it. Last summer's Southbend 10L bed took me 12 hours. But I was trying for a really great look. Serviceable might have taken half that time. I suspect that someone with a power scraper could do it in considerably less. I have never used one. Checklist: Yes, it probably would have been a good idea long before this. But there often seem to be snags that drive me off course. Still, the list would let me know where I was when I left the procedure. Rees

[@martindennehy3030]

So satisfying , but tell me what planes the planer😅😅😅. Would really love to see and do this job 😊😊. Also i might add, its obvious and shows that carriage and tailstock are resting and travelling on two separate ways and it shows. These old machines were so robust compared to more modern ones and its such a shame to think that they're useless and past their best just because of worn bedways that are very seldom remachined . With this and a little more they can be as good as new.

[@reesacheson5577]

You ask the question "What planes a planer?" I assume you are referring to the problem of since a planer is used to make a planer, how was the first planer made. I answered that question a few years ago with this: Most machine tools rely on passing a workpiece past a cutter. Anything in the way of the cutter is removed. How straight that cut is depends on how straight the path of the workpiece was. Machine tools rely on straight ways to guide the workpiece. In essence, the machine tool is copying the way's surface onto the workpiece. However, this is less so for a planer. The straightness of the rail is copied to the work across-wise, but longitudinally, planers tend to be more accurate than they themselves are. This is because the workpieces are usually long and so can flex slightly under their own weight. The planer's cutting tool is the same distance from the planer's own ways throughout the stroke and the planer table and work can flex to maintain contact with the planer ways, but the thickness is maintained. And since the finished part is flexible it can be leveled by jacking at various points to make the planed ways straight. Then hand scraping to a straight edge completes the process. Planers are also a bit like a road grader in that the blade being in the center of two sets of wheels halves the error at each pass. Obviously, these explanations have limits. My planer was made on a planer, and coming off the machine it was probably a little straighter than its maker. Planers are made to create straight ways. I think your question might have actually been, how did they make the first planer? An accurate planer can be made by hand using a straight edge. Whatever tools that are at hand can be used to speed up the process, but one could do it with a chisel, file and scraper along with some measuring tools to keep things parallel and fitting. And a straight edge can be made by making three of them at once, scraping each to another in sequence until all are straight enough for the purpose. A small planer can be used to make a larger one by segmenting the bed and table, and scraping them together to make the fit straight, for example. Very long planers have segmented beds. Rees

[@martindennehy3030]

@@reesacheson5577 That's a beautiful explanation, you have explained it beautifully, yes they can of course be made by hand but they all were made from and stem from the lathe, the first ever and fundamental machine tool ever made, the only machine capable of producing itself, turning between centres is still the go to technique today when maximum high precision is needed. Its a clever way to achieve extremely high precision on one axis, the only way to achieve a perfectly straight surface, which is why the lathe is king.

[@nickj2508]

The content and edit is great. 👍 it would be great to see a walk-around of the final work. 🙂

[@alchemik2010]

oglądam od 8 godzin.

[@beachboardfan9544]

How do you clamp this down in a way that ensures the clamps arent warping the bed?

[@gorak9000]

The cutting forces in a planer are horizontal (across the table) not vertical (into the table), so you don't need much clamping to the table - just a large end stop at the end to hold the part as it's being planed. Another channel named "steve watkins at work" has some good videos about clamping on a planer table, and where the forces go.

[@gorak9000]

Even in this video at 10:30 you can see it's clamped in both directions across the plane of the table horizontally, but not clamped TO the table vertically, hence there's no vertical clamping force to impart distortion to the way surfaces being planed

[@reesacheson5577]

Anytime a clamp is used, an dial indicator is placed against the bed to insure that the bed does not move when the clamp is tightened. But as I said in the introduction, the base, including the center pads, was planed. If I did a good job, clamping these pads to the table will not warp the bed if the clamps are directly over the pads. In the description I briefly described how I planed the base. Probably too briefly. But what I was doing was to define the plane that the bed would be in when in use. I recorded that plane in the tops of the Vees. Then flipping the bed I clamped that plane against the table so that I could copy that plane to the the base as I planed it. From then on the base should reflect the plane of the lathe bed at rest when it was supported at its ends, as it would be when it it is in use. I hope that answers your question. Rees

[@dpeter6396]

@@reesacheson5577 Perfect description!!!! Thank you.

[@Orionsthehunter]

I wish I could get this done on my clausing (1st lathe) just learning a new skill at 51.

[@piotruszkiewicz]

Dobra robota. Pozdrawiam

[@reesacheson5577]

Thank you.

[@mikemakuh5319]

NICE! Where about are you located and how much to do a 13" bed? Mine sure could use it!!!

[@reesacheson5577]

Alstead, New Hampshire. This job cost $250. But I am not sure I am taking on any more work. I'm still trying to figure out that part. Rees

[@mikemakuh5319]

@@reesacheson5577 Well that sounds more than fair. Unfortunately I live out west, but I use to live in Sandown! Thank you for a great few minutes of watching.

[@backho12]

Far too cheap for quality work!