Plato, Ion | Do Poets Have Knowledge? | Philosophy Core Concepts

[@GregoryBSadler]

Last of the Core Concept videos on the Ion -- now on to the Phaedo!

[@MrMarktrumble]

thank you. "Nietzsche: Prophet and Rapsode of the will to power" If epic poetry like the Illiad or the Mahabarata, or the Matrix do not contain knowledge, how does one identify large systemic accounts as containing truth? If you cite tradition you could be accused of the ad populuum fallacy. If you cite your own personal experience then you would have to be competent ( as a specialist) in each of all of the domains that a philosophy would contain.

[@MrMarktrumble]

rhetoric is the soft candy coating that attracts and distracts from the truth ( now there's an unjustified assertion)

[@GregoryBSadler]

Mark Trumble Really, this has nothing to do with Nietzsche. As I've noted in a previous comment, I don't actually agree with Plato's view here about poets and knowledge (and Plato himself may not, if you read other dialogues)

[@kethozhaviliegise6868]

You are awesome! would love to see you summarize on the books of the republic.

[@GregoryBSadler]

+Kethozhavi Liegise I've done a few portions, and if you look through my intro and ethics videos , you'll find longer lectures on the Republic as well

[@fredman4229]

My understanding is that knowledge is not simply gathering truth through logic but having it transmitted to the knower through senses of direct experience giving it depth and profundity.

[@GregoryBSadler]

That might fit the bill for certain kinds of knowledge, but not knowledge more generally

[@Gguy061]

I think Socrates is making a broad generalization when he says subject matters are distinct from each other. To me, identity is a sum of parts, not a thing in itself that is whole. Skills needed to be a fisherman require more than just being able to fish. Depending on the circumstance, it also depends on patience and physical strength. I think there can be overlap between subject matters, even though there are fundamental differences at the same time

[@GregoryBSadler]

Yes, it's a big assumption. It's one you'll see articulated that way in other Platonic dialogues as well. Of course, as I point out, Plato and Socrates might not actually be committed to that view on skills.

[@331777ify]

I think poets contribute a perspective, glazed in stylism.

[@GregoryBSadler]

I think good ones do. Bad ones don't. And, on the matter of poetry and knowledge, I'm actually not in agreement with Plato -- but when I present a thinker, I present them in their own words, on their own grounds, as if I took their side

[@331777ify]

So, do you believe poets have knowledge?, and if you do, to what extent do you believe this? Would you equate this knowledge to that of a well versed philosopher or and apprentice?

[@GregoryBSadler]

I'd say, again, it depends on whether we're talking about good poets, so-so ones, or bad ones. If we're talking about good poets, they have a more or less consciously articulate knowledge about language. Some possess quite an extensive knowledge of earlier poetry and other literature. That could be like apprentice-craft knowledge. It could also be quite philosophical -- some poets are in fact philosophers and vice-versa. Quite a few also have knowledge about some of the matters they incorporate into their poetry.

[@MrShylock56]

But is it a message on poetics Gregory or on life and the so called experts we listen to on TV and stuff, the heroes we see on the silver screen etc. Basically hollow men! Wouldn't you say. By the way, you are doing an excellent piece of work in this field, there are few who can match this gigantic body of work you are putting up here. Well done! The essence of a true teacher!

[@GregoryBSadler]

+liam o conlacha In Plato's text, it's about poetics, of course. If we decide to interpret and apply it to, say TV talking heads, that's possible with the text, but it's not a message in the text. We're contributing that

[@MrShylock56]

Gregory, The Philosophy of Technology…where would you start? Your input would be highly appreciated

[@GregoryBSadler]

Not a question relevant to the video. Better for a general message on the channel

[@luszczi]

My objection is that Socrates doesn't seem to distinguish between the content of a poem and its phrasing. The same insight about charioteering can be described in many ways. Some of these ways are better than others and that's where the poet's expertise lies. Content is all that Socrates examines and it seems to me to be totally irrelevant the the poets knowledge of phrasing. At the same time, I do agree with Socrates that poets do not have any of that "content knowledge" by virtue of their poetic expertise. To this extent, I'm convinced by his argument and I don't see how an overlap between different domains of "content knowledge" arts would be a problem for it. Not sure what Dr. Sadler is getting at there. Does Homer ever talk about poetry itself? Perhaps a scene with a rhapsode declaiming? This sort of "metapoem" might give Socrates an answer about the passage that would be fit for a rhapsode to judge!

[@GregoryBSadler]

Nothing like reading Homer to find out (quickly)

[@Fauwst]

In think poetry curtainly posesses the possibility to enhance or instill selfknowledge, which is knowledge.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Some poetry does, that's for certain

[@PoeDarkPoetry]

Poets are like magicians. Their powers and knowledge transcend space and time and the mundane.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Well.. good poets at least

[@PoeDarkPoetry]

That's a very good point.

[@jovanakenjiciv2300]

Thank you!

[@GregoryBSadler]

You’re welcome

[@ericnicholson870]

How does Socrates' argument hold up today? For example many poets today have had other occupations and therefore can communicate knowledge. Eg. Wendell Berry was a farmer!

[@GregoryBSadler]

Which argument? There's a number in the work

[@DarkFire515]

Does Plato accept the possibility that a poet has the potential to possess true knowledge if he or she is in fact an expert in the given subject, or is this not something that Plato considered?

[@GregoryBSadler]

What we want to do to answer that is distinguish between Plato's own views (which we need to go to other dialogues to find or reconstruct) and the views expressed by Socrates with a fairly weak interlocutor, Ion, in this dialogue.

[@DarkFire515]

Gregory B. Sadler Ah,I thought that might be the case. Further reading required then! I shall plough onwards...

[@KeithMakank3]

Answer: No they just get really high and say cool shit something something magnets

[@GregoryBSadler]

Well, they are miracles, after all

[@fredman4229]

Just a thought... could a tremendously EMPATHETIC poet be able to give voice to the direct experiences of an expert in his field and articulate the knowledge even better than the expert through the power of his words that the expert does not possess?

[@GregoryBSadler]

I don't think empathy would have anything to do with that

[@musicfreak1562]

Poets does not need the knowledge of the concepts they speak r pen. Because it's d reactions nd reflections of wat they go through r even wat they imagine, isn't it?

[@GregoryBSadler]

No idea what you're saying.

[@musicfreak1562]

@@GregoryBSadler Fine sir. U were explaining about homer's illad had elements like divinity,chariot riding nd fishing. Homer had no 'experienced knowledge 'about these. My question is tat... Y should poets like him need the experienced knowledge of wat ever he writes?

[@GregoryBSadler]

@@musicfreak1562 I think you can probably figure that out with a bit of thinking, and looking at the text

[@oneshotki11]

@@musicfreak1562 Correct me if im wrong here, but I dont think poets need to have the experience or knowledge of the things they profess, but the point was that they are not experts on the subject matter. You can be a great public speaker for a particular topic, and recite line for line exact knowledge on the subject, but are you capable of advancing such and truly being a expert in the area, or are you just very good at repeating what the actual experts say?