Playing Bass with Marbles - Testing 3 New Ideas

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The design requirement process pushed me to gather some more information about how the instruments were supposed to play. So here we are with some prototyping again.
Thank you to all Wintergatan KZbin Members!
Video edited By Martin and Hannes from the Trainerds KZbin Channel:
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[@Wintergatan]

Sometimes my thumbnails feels like those AI commercials for the Willy Wonka Experience

[@MicheleeiRettili]

ahahahah noooo martin 🤣🤣🤣

[@jaysoneway]

It can always get more Willy Wonka or Dr. Seuss. I used to be in a junk band. Each instrument had to be 25$ or less and completely DIY. We had a bedframe upright kit, 5 galon jug fretless bass, soda bottle lapsteel. Toy pianos are the most precious thing in a junk band, the old mechanical ones with the multicolored bells most. We had to view all the anamotronics as homework. Lets make a hardcore punk trash machine band together Martin, we have the experience required. We can take it to Wastland festival and engineer it to function while covered in sand.

[@D---3]

billi bonkas? 😮

[@gcextol8129]

😂

[@BlameItOnGreg]

Except they’re real!

[@RobBulmahn]

If I had to choose a starting point, I'd probably base a design on a piano, which is doing a fundamentally similar action, and has had centuries of refinement.

[@jerrylim6722]

better yet, just take couple sections of a normal piano action and rebalance the keys to be able to function from just the force of a marble falling on it, and just call it done for the drafting phase...

[@dominicsaavedra5113]

I went looking for this before commenting the same thing. Another thing that's nice about the piano action is they already solved the problem for being able to play at different volumes on the fly by changing the distance they key can travel to reduce the transfer of momentum.

[@gregdizer5262]

I agree. Also why do martin wants to use a regular bass guitar ? He could also use an independant string for any note he wants to play, like a piano. Guess he would have to use many microphones, but what the hell ?

[@dominicsaavedra5113]

@@gregdizer5262 That's a good point but I think that would involve even more design work. One would have to come up with a mount and tensioning system for the strings. I think it would be much easier and also more visually interesting to retrofit or recreate piano hammers on a base guitar.

[@Serostern]

​@@gregdizer5262 to be fair, if you want to make it easy, just use a synthesizer.

[@odw32]

I love how much fun you're having since you recently (re-)discovered that fun is a "must have requirement". Seems like you're keeping the best of both worlds: A rigorous scientific approach with lots of testing; But mixed with plenty of energy, creativity, crazy ambitious new ideas and playfulness.

[@faceunmasked]

Time will tell, but seems like Martin has unlocked something really magical here

[@thomasbecker9676]

Nothing he does is scientific. The scientific method is codified.

[@leparp5424]

​@@thomasbecker9676So what is the universal code for all scientific research then? You seem to have a very narrow view of what is science, which wouldn't actually include most (even experimental) scientific research done today. He is doing engineering, not scientific research per se, but he still uses a scientific methodology which delivers scientific knowledge.

[@thomasbecker9676]

@@leparp5424He doesn't use scientific methodology, nor is he an engineer. Science requires a clear hypothesis, and a clear plan on how to test that hypothesis, as well as unbiased review of the results. Nothing Martin does is clear. Most of us learned about the scientific method in grade school.

[@miwiarts]

​@@thomasbecker9676 I don't know what your problem is. Problem: The hammer hits too hard, causing the bass to sound unpleasant. Hypothesis: If I have a mechanism that acts like a human finger, then the sound will be softer. Plan: 1. Iteratively design a mechanism that follows the motions a finger would. 2. Implement a softer material to mimic the softness of a human finger. Q.E.D.

[@Khantia]

Beware! The marbles bounce trajectory may also change along with the spring tension. So you may need a more reliable "collecting" system than what the MMX had.

[@jarbarsi]

The MMX collection system didn't work when conditions stayed the same, I'm sure he's already fully prepared to redesign that part from scratch tbh.

[@lupeters213]

"The floor" is the collection system.

[@guicky_]

@@lupeters213 that could very well work, just put the whole machine on top of a giant funnel and call it a day

[@WobblyBits_X]

The timing of the notes as well. A tighter spring is going to be less willing to fall under the marble, making its travel time a bit slower. Overall, I think trying to have variability in a single mechanism will introduce too many problems that could be solved by just adding a second bass (or third) with a different mechanism. Tune each to play in the same timing with their different mechanisms and have no additional issues with timing, catching, or complexity, just a few extra tracks on your programming drum.

[@MomradG]

Can we have a "this design... Is shit" gif? Best expression ever

[@Skjaldr_Vindskyter]

I can see so many edits of martin throwing all kinds of things

[@Bbeaucha88]

I was the genius who suggested the hammer jammer design! I hope it is carved on my tombstone as my greatest accomplishment (even if Martin doesn't pick that design).

[@AdelaeR]

Thank you for your service, genius.

[@Bbeaucha88]

@@AdelaeR I accept the burden of my giant brain so others don't have to!

[@extraintelligence]

Not only a genius, but magnificently humble too.

[@Bbeaucha88]

@@extraintelligence I know right? You would think it would be hard being this awesome and humble at the same time but I seem to handle it better than anyone else!

[@Avetho]

You. I like you. You sound like a magnificent person.

[@buidelrat132]

You're not crazy, you're cool. Or at least you're my kind of crazy. Thanks for sharing.

[@JackofNothingess]

Crazy, I was crazy once...

[@Smilliztho]

Or you’re kind of cool…

[@alexandermcclure6185]

@@JackofNothingess Were you put in a round room to die? Or was it a rubber room with rats?

[@antonymitchell3385]

Those harsh hits are due to the hard plastic hammers, the strings will vibrate against them and provide a hard sound, I imagine some padding would make the attack softer, like using a hard/soft beater on a bass drum pedal.

[@DanLocks]

Like a piano hammer. in fact... just try a piano hammer. maybe the whole mechanism.

[@MorningDusk7734]

check out piano hammers, they are designed for dynamic volume based on impact strength.

[@AdelaeR]

Sure, but the marbles always have the same impact strength, unless you drop 'm from different heights and that would require more marble lanes. Changing the sound by adjusting the springs is a good idea, although it does mean feature creep.

[@bassenji5565]

But isn't the impact strength always the same on the mm3?

[@DjesonPV]

​@@bassenji5565 Unless there is a lever with adjustable damping of the marble fall pads (pull spring or cushioning)

[@TXTrojan]

@@AdelaeR but maybe you are on to something here, adjust marble heights as well. a lot going on but that's what the human body does

[@Bohrit0]

The siliconband he used to dampen the xylophone coud be reused here i think

[@blar2112]

The more stuff you add between the marble and the instrument the less tight the music will be, undoing all the gate work.

[@Saixoz]

The mechanical finger definitely sounds nicest! The last one still has the sharp note at the start, which is unpleasant.

[@RupeeRhod]

the last one sounds more like bass played with a pick, which has its place.

[@454Casull]

But it also doesn't have the rubber wrapped around the tip, unlike the other option.

[@brianj.841]

I'm worried about response time. He really needs to keep the hammers close to the strings.

[@Palerider1942]

I like both of them, you have the soft fingered bass and then the hard almost slap bass. brings a nice funkyness to the bassline

[@WilliamNyberg]

​@@brianj.841 as long as it's consistent he can program in some latency compensation.

[@iraravid]

Different approach: go back to dropping marbles on the strings, but have two levels of marble paths. you can have a lever deciding if you want to drop them from the 'first floor' or the 'second'

[@Squant]

You wouldn't have to limit it to two heights if you had one path you could smoothly raise and lower.

[@DaftFader]

I don't think he just wants to be able to play quiet passages. In music you often are playing a quiet note followed by a louder one followed by a quieter one etc. to give groove and movement to the part. This is partly what I think he's aiming to achieve, and not just blocks of solid volume be them blocks loud or quiet.

[@jeremiesalgat1284]

Changing the height alors change the timing, so it wouldnt be possible to just adjust it. You would need à programming for each height, and I think it would be à nightmqre to programm. And it would also be difficult to collect the marbles.

[@mdoerkse]

He already talked about the idea of changing the high without changing the timing for playing the chimes. But I don't think in any of the plans is there the idea to program different velocities for different notes. It's a cool idea but would add a ton of complexity. In this video he just mentioned having a lever to adjust the volume, so it is more like a fader on a sound board, not individual notes with different volumes, unfortunately.

[@8bitarmory846]

second design really feels like something out of Animusic

[@ebi_tempura]

Very simillar to the both the fingers in resonant chamber, and the fingers in future retro

[@Bourinos02]

Rubber could probably fix that issue though...

[@ericvandenavond8748]

It almost reminds me of Acoustic Curves.

[@dannyneumann4547]

Some thoughts: 1) harpsichords have a "plucking mechanism" that uses a different system than a groove -- worth looking into in case you do want to go that route. 2) You can alter the volume of piano keys, which depend on a lever mechanism, by pressing them farther up the key. 3) The lever striking mechanism could use some felt (again like a piano) for a cleaner attack. Cheers. Great video.

[@jarbarsi]

"This design is shit, we don't need it." And friends, this is why we prototype :D

[@valdir7426]

I wish I could prototype in CAD/print to 3D and test so fast and with such ease (3 different versions no less)

[@thomasbecker9676]

That's all Martin will ever do until enough people realize he has no intention of finishing another marble machine.

[@user-qu5mm3ei9l]

Martin: from first principles Martin: no dumb design requirements Also Martin: muting strings, slap, hammer-ons, soft and hard notes

[@barredrockbrown8721]

I really like the marbles playing directly on the bass. Maybe some way to dynamically shift the height the marbles fall from to control the volume?

[@nialltracey2599]

Hmm... I think the direct marble playing had a unique charm. It managed to combine synth vibes with acoustic sound in a weirdly steampunk kind of way. Maybe most importantly, it was really something unique.

[@jonasdaverio9369]

But the lack of dynamic is probably pretty off-putting for stage performance

[@Nessinby]

​@@jonasdaverio9369this, while I agree it has a definitive sound, it's also a very monotone sound. Having that variation would make the machine a lot more interesting, even if it's a ton more complex as a result.

[@1815dmitriy]

It also was more spectacular and more "mechanical".

[@nialltracey2599]

@@1815dmitriyExactly -- a marble machine should be a spectacular mechanical machine. The closer it gets to something a human could do on an instrument, the less of a unique voice it has. If you can make a machine sound like human musicians, the value of live music is diminished. What's the value of the mechanical instrument over high-end sample-based VSTs?

[@jacobv_]

I think there is something really magical about seeing a large steel ball bearing bouncing off of the strings of the MMX Cyberbass. It blew my mind that a marble could accurately hit those strings and fly off predictably. It definitely earned it's name! When I see the pads and hammers and springs from this video, it's very obvious how it works and seems like it is clearly going to be very reliable. It just doesn't have the same magic. While I do think soft hits are a good requirement, I think it's too early to decide against direct marble hits.

[@Ezox2408]

in an ideal world, id love there to be 2 basses: 1. with mechanical fingers/taps keeping that sexy groove just as Martin wants it 2. OG Cyberbass with metal balls flying everywhere for that "solo" feel where shit kinda goes chaotic

[@JohnDiamond-vv9jr]

I honestly think the ability to change the dynamics makes up for not having the ball bearings hit the string directly- dynamics can add a lot of life to music

[@lwky]

I agree. Maybe a layer of rubber above the strings that softens the impact of the marble for a more pleasant sound? You could engage/disengage it like the soft pedal on a piano.

[@johanrojassoderman5590]

If you were worried about playing in time before, the softer notes on the pivoted hammer seems to add quite a lot of delay, increasing with the softness. It also seems like it might be difficult to make it play anything fast since it bounces against the input mechanism after playing, possibly causing it to miss input. As others have already mentioned, and the first thing I thought of when I saw the hammers: it might be a good idea to look to pianos for inspiration. Also, to remedy the attack being too harsh, I would experiment with the drop height to decrease the potential energy and find a maximum acceptable level for the sound comparison.

[@joshcurtis3752]

I hesitate to say it, but if tightness is one of your considerations, you need to test each new marble interface for tightness.

[@philiprioux7767]

Seems like the second version of the first option is approaching a piano design. Check out the harpsichord as well!

[@mikeciul8599]

That reminds me, I've seen harpsichord action before, but I'm still not sure I understand how it works. I think it's like this (referring to WIkipedia): The plectrum is mounted on a "tongue" that allows it to swing out of the way on the way back down. But it still touches the string I think, just gently. The main difference is that the jack stays up as long as the key is held down, and when it comes back down, a damper lands on the string. So the sound of the plectrum going the "wrong way" is just part of the end of the note.

[@valdir7426]

no that's the 3rd. good thinking on the harpshichord

[@Grombags]

Love this. Just seeing and listening to you play music on something as simple as a bass guitar is always so cool.

[@electropuff6098]

That attack sounds great,like bass slapping

[@bastian1847]

2 minutes in, I vote for B. The fact that it plucks the string instead of hitting it makes it a much more natural sound

[@bobibiboo]

The artifact we ear with the hammer design is the hard slippery plastic sliding on the cords. I suggest trying again with a small rubber pad at the end.

[@MultiAndAnd]

Martin, I know that 1) you are busy working on the machine 2) it's not like one can command a musitian to play. However, it would be cool sometimes to have a video where you play even with normal instruments :P We are here for the music too!

[@LuizEnger]

Option 2 sounded the best imho. You could think of a way of changing the impact force of the marbles on the lever, to alter between soft and hard.

[@BirthQuakeRecords]

These are some of my favorite contraptions yet

[@riuphane]

Honestly the finger like one seems the most fun to me, but i do see why you picked the one you did. Then follow up with a dampener and it'll be really interesting!

[@silver2dragon1313]

Oh My... Music from Martin. I think he should always have 20 to 30 seconds of music in these videos.. ;) Very interesting on the designs for the bass playing.

[@SkorjOlafsen]

"Self-flushing baño". 🤣

[@Jono.]

That second elliptical-return linkage with the spring is so cool. I love that. I took a “design of planar machinery” course where we learned how to design linkages to follow wild output arcs like this. Coolest class. A lot of it can be done by hand, amazingly. This has me excited to see the machine!

[@ramuDotZip]

Not sure how reliable it would be implemented on the full machine, but I absolutely love how the second design looks and sounds. Plucking the strings with a tiny arm gives it a lot of charm and makes it feel "alive" in a way

[@Nessinby]

I love that you're accounting for the natural "accidental" sounds like the slap. There's so many obviously over-processed synthesized music that removes little details like that which makes songs feel human. Chopping out the singer breathing, the amp humming, the strings singing.. Even the mechanical noises of the marble machine is an instrument in and of itself.

[@timehunter9467]

I’m excited to see what happens with the bass, it’ll be nice to hear different playing styles for sure.

[@vickystrudwick3939]

Came for the mechanism testing, stayed for the groovy sounds at 12:37 :-D

[@pileofstuff]

Ocean Pearl by 54-40 Did not expect to hear Martin playing a '90s Canadian song.

[@jakedixonmusic]

holy cow this is so cool. A fully marble-controlled bass

[@Onthewayover]

Great sounds! Don't forget usability! That's a lot of functions to fit on a programming wheel. Rooting for you!

[@rgb3304]

You're reinventing the instrument commonly known as a piano Marten.

[@Nessinby]

It happens, accidental reinvention to solve a common problem happens constantly I've discovered.

[@Richard.Andersson]

Another option to make the third option to play softer or harder would be to have different amounts of "backstop" behind the string. So when the hammer hits the string, the string can only bend until it hits whatever is behind the note. When you play by hand you can bend the string a lot, creating a lot of tension in the strings because you tension it sideways where there is nothing stopping you.

[@ThomasBaxter]

That riff Martin plays on the Bass sounds like "Ocean Pearl" by 54-40 (at least for the first couple phrases)

[@BloomThat]

Originality doesn't exist, everything is derivative or luck 😅

[@Panthersman52]

I’m a fan of the hard sounds from the first design of the marble machine x

[@norman_cuppatea]

I love the tone and look of that bass. Well done now I want a new bass!

[@PiercingSight]

Piano action is exactly what you're looking for!

[@zisumevoli96]

Yes this is aweosme!! I would love to see the a mechanical hand that can move along the neck 🤯

[@knotxacklyastudio]

Martin is like the version of me in my dreams who can play any instrument perfectly with it sounding extremely natural and very good.

[@Grid21]

I love watching these videos, and all I can think is "It's Animusic, IN REAL LIFE!!!" Wayne Lytle would be proud.

[@BassoSDmon]

happy to see you back man

[@mojorn8837]

I’m glad I’m not the only one who marvels at a latch system like the one at 5:39. I noticed that is how my sunglasses holder worked in my car a long time ago and it blew my mind. Pushing up opens it and then push back up closes it back up.

[@ChickenScratch]

This bass is going to sound so funky! I love it

[@Inimigor1]

7:00 "This was so fun to figure out" This is half the reason we like to watch the machine getting built!

[@danser_theplayer01]

I actually like the sudden attacks for emphasis.

[@BleughBleugh]

Just the right amount of lunacy on this! How many channels will you need to automate that guitar like you want!! Wow…has anyone ever done it before like you want? You may well be the first person dumb/genius enough to do it…and the first person insane enough to try do it with marbles!

[@joeburrow4290]

This is one of my favorite episodes in a while. Really good work Martin!

[@petropzqi]

This is the video I have been waiting for. Let's gooooo ❤

[@Alluvian567]

Love it, some pretty nice mechanisms there and exciting sound!

[@WouterH.]

Don't forget! With the hammer design, adding more spring tension will delay the note, so it won't be tight anymore!

[@LavendelBrei]

This feels like feature creep. The last bass sounded great for certain types of music. Martin, if you need this instrument to play every genre, it will keep growing. I like the ideas for different slap mechanics but I would suggest you set some more realistic goals on what is achievable and what marbles are good at. An 808 doesn't sound like a real drum kit but lots of good music was made on it.

[@jacobcusumano6952]

I disagree with this. The last video, he made it clear that his main objective was to make a cool machine, and a machine that simply performs its goal isn't cool if there isn't artistic freedom. Also I agree with him that the music needs to be dynamic, and this testing is the only way he can achieve that

[@youdonegoofed]

@@jacobcusumano6952 a paypiggy disagrees :o

[@Wolfboy607]

I'm not really here for the world tour anyway, i can't afford to see live music. Maybe i'd prefer the machine to never be finished, then we get more engineering content from martin. You hear me, martin? this is your boulder, push it up the mountain for our entertainment. forever!

[@abhijaman4792]

can't wait to see how this one will turn out ten years later.

[@goldenshatter]

That is amazing bass at the beginning really hits my speakers

[@TeroOhranen]

Sick lil’ groove with that bass!!! Loved it!😍

[@akapype]

part of fun of the original MM bass was in seeing the machine and you teaming together to play the bass. I think that mean I'd go for mechanical finger (for disco mechanical) and direct drops (for iconic MM bass sound), and leave the muting and tapping and slapping to the human hand helping the machine to make music out of the instrument.

[@rachelrodgers9171]

Your groovy inventions and ideas never cease to amaze me. I'm intrigued and find it quite mesmerizing to listen to the end result. You belong in the Guness Book of World Records or Ripley's Believe it or Not.

[@Boxmaker247]

5:12 this is also how the NES cartridge push down mechanism works

[@garlicwaffle6146]

This was the bestest bass test

[@ChuckSploder]

I've never heard a Swede yelling before, that caught me off guard XD 11:06

[@karasekjh]

I love the fact that I can watch your videos with my ears.🙃😊🤗

[@RazingthenRaising]

The solid hammer is actually excellent. For holding the frets. Try that out!

[@billkeithchannel]

With all these levers Martin is going to look like the Cat In The Hat operating his multi-handled family gredunza.

[@nako9790]

Those design sounds really promising, I am only have concerns about the speed at which it can play notes ! It seemed to require some time to play a note and being back in position (both 2nd and 3rd design). I think this can be investigated to choose between 2 and 3

[@polyonymyy]

You're reinventing the harpsichord, Martin.

[@brandonscully]

You blow my mind. I love your videos so much!

[@cavemann_]

Making music on the marble machine is going to be so interesting considering the mechanical limitations and rather low flexibility in the types of notes that can be played.

[@tsuki8957]

IM SO EXITEDDDDDDD!!!! this is AMAZINGGGGG

[@ellabun]

The whimsy is back! Everything in this vid is satisfying to watch and looks awesome

[@m9l0m6nmelkior7]

Martin is reinventing the piano here x)

[@valdir7426]

super interesting mechanical design. the 3rd one is basically the same principle as a piano hammer. (there's a marble-less machine potential somewhere as well by the way but that's another project)

[@JohnErikMills]

Martin, it's so good seeing you having fun with the creative process again. Stepping back and working on your goals for the project was the best thing to have happened. I worry about the packaging for the TOT actuator but perhaps if you have four separate base guitars each with one string packaging would be less of an issue... but then how would you play the notes? Its a trick puzzle to put together. Hats off to you my friend.

[@BillBadMule123]

I love your channel I've been watching your videos for years

[@ragesuper7858]

I think your original bass with the marbles hitting the strings is super cool. Why not use a Bowden cable to adjust the volume control of the bass for soft or loud notes?

[@paulroberts324]

Soft or loud is more about the timpre or charachter of the notes, not about the absolute volume. Think of it like how a whisper would sound different than someone yelling at an equal volume.

[@maxmunstermann4567]

Oh this bass is going to sound sooo good !!

[@rorywalker6685]

Nice one! With the second design, the track could push the ‘finger’ to mute the string above just as bass players do!

[@Slitheringpeanut]

Promising, can't wait.

[@honkzabey5600]

And again Martin is doing a secret revival of the kinetic fingers ^^

[@LenDueck]

That sounded like the bass line to 'Ocean Pearl'

[@vn8600]

my god man.. you are a genius.

[@sean_miller]

This project is a doomed overcomplicated disaster, but I always enjoy watching the videos and I wish Martin the best of luck.

[@Totial]

martin improvises 3 chords on the bass and my brain goes into hibernation mode

[@ryano.5149]

YES!!!! Looking at historical mechanical music machines, and using concepts already devised!!! Yes! Yes yes yes!!! Work smart, not hard!

[@ramirezkine5704]

We need more of Martin screaming at the camera. I'd pay for it.

[@dhavysipemikat9994]

wow... amazing.....

[@lforlight]

If you're looking into mechanically plucking strings, I would suggest looking into harpsichords. They're like pianos, except they pluck on the strings instead of thumping them.

[@austin4x]

I think, at this point, we can all safely assume the completed revised marble music machine project will be forever ongoing, yeah? I had a 10 year old that's now leaving for college. Some people who were in high school at the time the original came out are now doctors. 😂❤ *THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT, HEROES AND WARRIORS*

[@TS_Mind_Swept]

Not sure if it's going to be able to do the whole string bending thing, but the rest should be pretty easy. I also like how the third design kind of emulates a piano hammer

[@qwicy]

Great work.

[@carrotspace8593]

I feel like this is exactly what a piano is I think it would be interesting to explore something similar to that

[@AManofIron357]

Wish you luck in mm3!

[@jackplant9232]

I can't speak for the musical usability, but we use hammers very similar to your 3rd option to break ice creams free from metal trays in blast freezers in the ice cream factory where I work, they do that extremely well

[@musikSkool]

Magic as usual, Snufkin.