Whale Hunting - Opinions on the Premium Product Problem - Double Masters, Secret Lairs - MTG Rant

[@crisco7043]

Last time I was this early, Vince had a haircut.

[@andrewboyko8304]

Chris Sullivan new patreon tier: choose Vince’s haircut 😂

[@thetimebinder]

14:41 for future linking.

[@Vaderi300]

Oof, that one's a close shave.

[@HamHocks42]

"Stop telling people they are too poor to play your game." -Perfectly said. Thank you, Vince!

[@couldntpickausername4099]

@Shill for Science correction, we didn't used to be. It used to be a reasonable price. Now it's not.

[@JoelBurger]

@Shill for Science Why should people be priced out of formats? What positives are there to only certain people being able to afford to play with different pieces of cardboard?

[@lordofthemound3890]

Shill for Science good business model. You obviously don’t want any new players for your product. And standard is reasonable once. Once. You lose that player at the first rotation when their deck is useless.

[@TheRedGauntlet]

@Shill for Science Shill for Hasbro instead jesus. Desireble repritns shouldn't be in premium products. Don't like don't buy it phrase has been the norm these couple of years because almost every non standard product has been like this. Still waiting for the product for me since Battlebond.

[@LazerpawX7]

@Shill for Science Personally, I hate standard and pioneer. I want to play commander, but I can't afford to. These recent premium products contain much needed reprints for commander, but I can't afford them when it's 4x the price of standard products.

[@astreagc1187]

We first had a “reserve list” that was created as a result of the “promise “ to “Collectors” that Wizards made many years ago, a list of cards publicly known that cannot be reprinted ; making them expensive due the lack of availability and the pass of time. Then nowadays we have “premium card list” or “Reserve list 2.0” , a list of playable and highly desired cards (not known by the public to not make them angry ) that “can” be reprinted but only on certain premium products or in certain occasions , to keep the price artificially inflated , appease the secondary market, give the players the illusion that a card “can” be reprinted and especially.... if you don’t like it you are wrong, because it’s not for you.... They actually did it, they just made another kind of Reserve list, one without the the backlash that the first Reserve list made with its creation and one that we won't heard from them directly....

[@emathias5]

Spread this. This is great. Mind blown

[@jongibson4766]

I've been seeing this copypasta everywhere. It's so well said.

[@centurosproductions8827]

There's been plenty of backlash recently. The cowards need to reprint fetchlands, I hear.

[@griz276]

@@aklepatzky they already did, it was another secret lair, go check out the summer secret lair. Both fetchland reprints were secret lairs.

[@humphrex]

More like they have a reprint list. Its always the same cards

[@CPCrnchBerry]

you went nearly 10 minutes before bringing up fetches that's an achievement by itself

[@Kajiyaification]

also no brexit and tori party

[@aidenpearce6624]

I think you want to make a joke there, but its just makes me sad.

[@bdrsescanor6804]

We wouldnt be fans if he didnt bring it up once

[@BoJacobson]

Speaking as a "Whale" (been playing since '95, and been overspending on cardboard ever since) I want to raise my hand and share that I'm not represented by Mr. Rosewater's comments. I don't want cards made "for me," and I hate that the enthusiasm I've shown towards this awesome game is being used against other players. I want to play Misty Rainforest without setting a $90 barrier between myself and the rest of the table. I don't want an advantage in this fantasy game because of real-life economics. I want to play the game the best I can, and I want my opponents to play best they can, and I want our games to be indicative of how we think and what we like, not what's in our wallets. I want "dedication to the game" to be marked in effort to do powerful and interesting things, not the willingness to endure painful price points, and it doesn't enhance my play experience AT ALL to feel as if I've "bought" wins. So, when Rosewater says that they'd be denying Whales some fundamental part of the magic experience by not making cards for "them," just know there's a lot of "them" that want no part of this BS.

[@ralphpetagna3778]

All of this. I've been playing since 2003 and spent a lot of money early on building up an Extended/Legacy collection, plus foils and alternate arts, so I have seen a ridiculous ROI on a lot of my collection. But it sucks when I can't play Legacy because no one else in my area can afford it, or when I'm just one turn ahead of my EDH pod because I have fetches and duals and the rest of the table doesn't. The prices of *regular* game pieces (standard from-the-booster printings) shouldn't exceed a reasonable threshold (say, $20)... make all the premium versions for the whales you can make, but economics limiting playability is unfair to both newer players (who didn't get to acquire those cards cheaply as I did) and to players with less disposable income (for obvious reasons). I had a good solution that would have been better had Wizards implemented it from the start: never let a set (from MM forward) go out of print and out of availability. Don't flood the market but keep the printers working.

[@VolvoxSocks]

@@ralphpetagna3778 The idea of straight up reprinting sets is actually interesting. While I wouldn't propose continuous printing of sets, I think if WotC dropped one of the 237 other products they're currently printing, they could easily reprint a popular older set that would require minimal overhead cost. Since it would just a be a reprint there would be 0 cost toward design/development/art commission (maybe if they wanted to add some new art versions, whatevs). Basically bring online flashback drafts to paper.

[@nickkowalski5209]

@@VolvoxSocks It is a great idea. I'm a relatively (since 2017) new to magic, but I like the game and I'd really love to experience older sets firsthand, not by just reading about them. Mirrodin had bah-roken mechanics and cards, so many bans during that time.. sure, I'd take it. Ravnica with dredge, 10/10 on the storm scale, count me in. And also it's a neat way to reprint important cards Meaningfully (unless of course newly reprinted packs'd cost 15/20/30/whatever bucks), support eternal formats and not to break current standard

[@nicholasstavash7880]

Well said

[@crackedwindowproductions]

I honestly love two statements. First "Players don't like to be called poor" and second "make all cards fairly cheap at their base level, and make money off of the prettier version"

[@tmdblya]

That basically nails it.

[@OfficialAvijitDas]

I mean in context though, one is the point that WotC has terrible PR, and the other is a point about accessibility - they aren't quite the same thing :P - but yes I agree, we are fickle and we want to be treated like kings while acting like peasants haha

[@hiswordremains]

After spending around 300$ I've decided I'm not coming back to MTG. I've been playing MTG Arena and while at first I thought there model was generous I've realize that it is absolutely not feasible to do dailies, even with a season pass, and expect to being able to compete with the current meta without having disposable income and/or a wealth of game knowledge. For a new player like myself I've had to bleed money to learn several times that my decks are just not good enough. They could easily circumvent this issue by allowing people to test cards for free, but not gain rewards from any of the matches but they don't. They're staying married to an obsolete model and if I didn't know any better I'd say they're definitely latching onto the whales and until those whales die off they are not going to change their model because they're afraid. But I don't want to spend any more money, and I'm tired of netdecking, and I'm not gonna recommend this game to anybody, not out of bitterness, but just because I don't see what the value is.

[@pnyhmsmx]

@@hiswordremains problem with standard isn't lack of knowledge at all. I've played this game for years. Wizards philosophy for standard is fucking garbage, making knowledge pointless unless you play the occasional side modes that loan decks

[@Syne111]

I'd honestly be fine with this, if WOTC hadn't proven again and again, that they can't leave special art alone. They've butchered old border foils, which were one of the last bastions for non-RL collectors. They recycled the Invention frame.. badly. They even attempted to copy 7ed foil lands in DMR. Listen. If you want ART to be the special thing for collectors, then DO IT. Take it seriously, and stop taking lazy shortcuts.

[@impendio]

“You are too poor to play our game, sorry.” -WotC for the last 15 years

[@RavnicaBuildingandPlanning]

sorry youre too poor you cant play with us.

[@haruhisuzumiya6650]

im playing pokemon and vanguard

[@GM-rs2fv]

Commander's Quarters disagrees

[@SquirrelGamingProductions]

That would imply it's been prohibitive since Ravnica. I can't agree.

[@zeroisnine]

"I want everything for free, and if you don't give it to me you are a mean capitalist!" - comment section

[@thehatcaseonyoutube]

We also might just need to go the way of melee and hold our own modern and legacy tournaments where proxies are legal.

[@texmex8432]

Timothy Owens you criminal

[@danielcrosby1254]

Im buying into legacy with proxies that have better art legacy for fun not competitive

[@EDHCoffee]

@Timothy Owens This is the answer.

[@ComradeQuestion42069]

Proxy everything.

[@xxhellspawnedxx]

If it happens, and catches on, you can probably look forward to hefty fines for copyright infringement.

[@Tacklepig]

The "this product isn't for you" thing pisses me off to no extent. I'm a limited player. I love Masters sets and novelty draft sets because they're fun to play with, because they give me a different play experience than your regular standard set (which I'll still usually draft with). This product IS made for me, I'm the type of player who these types of products are designed for, and I can't afford it.

[@PinguTuan]

Thats a great point that hadn't occured to me at all

[@Metal-Ace]

I still remember asking who was this product for when Ultimate Master was coming out on the MtG subreddit and being downvoted for asking that question and saying that that phrase just rubs me the wrong way.

[@Eckendenker]

Im pretty much the same, I also play some commander. Commander I can proxy easily. If you don't have time/money for a cube, here is an idea for endless free drafts: I got about 4000 cards of draft chaff since OG Theros. Plus some cards from 2000-2003. I have them sorted by color and rarity. When friends come over I grab a fist full of Cs and some UCs for every color. We sit around the table, grab the first drink and shuffle them for 15minutes. Then we make draft piles and play. Some of my very best drafts were like this. Like that one draft, where everyone had the Mirrodin Manamyrs. Or one where I got 2 Bonesplitters and a Loxodon Warhammer. Or the one where half the table played pingers (of course we had to finish that day with a 3on3, pingers vs no pingers). Or the one where one mate had 2 crypt rats and kept blowing up the board. It's free, it's fun, you get to experience powerlevels all over the place and the draft is less of the handholdy, samy, gimmicky bs the latest sets have become. We lovingly call it "poop draft"

[@W1DO]

I'd love to draft them too, but its not possible on my own... these sets are probably lucky to have 3 or 4 drafts fire in my country, let alone my LGS.

[@humphrex]

I like sports cars and fancy food. Its made for me!

[@Pandahboymtg]

"The price point dictates what can be in a set (when talking reprint sets)" Mystery Boosters had Mana Crypt in the set and the boxes were $100 at release.

[@peterhone9763]

Yeah, but (at mythic and with so many cards in the set) the EV of getting one was probably low enough that it didn't hurt their reprint equity....

[@darkcivilian]

This is a good indicator then. Either Double Masters will have ~3x the EV of Mystery Boosters, or it won't and WOTC is full of shit.

[@Atmblack03]

They were $110 by me and most online retailers for preorders. My one lgs claimed they couldn't do preorders because they didn't know if they could get enough boxes. The other somehow received ~60. Day of release I went to grab a box to sit on and the price spiked to $150 and went up from there until they sold out. That just shows the stores and I'm sure wizards that someone will pay as prices go up..

[@xylophone897]

we haven't actually seen the list or anything. Who knows how many Reya Dawnbringers there will be for each Blightsteel Colossus.

[@fluffbot3000]

@@iPhone4Gaddict but if the set is full of penny rares, getting two of them wont make the set worth that price.

[@cloudyskiesnow]

Magic is a product that depends on access to disposable income. The more you alienate and upset players, especially during an unemployment crisis on par with the Great Depression, the more likely they are to tell you to GFY and walk away from the game altogether.

[@deanofcool]

IKR. I’m out of work at the moment and am dreading trying to look for work after the pandemic is over. WotC is outpricing me from their products.

[@anonsenpai6533]

I haven't purchased a single authentic Magic product in six months. I don't think I will be buying authentic Magic cards anytime soon either given the current direction of the company.

[@abbyshore9953]

@@anonsenpai6533 This is why my playgroup just proxies all our cards. We can play whatever tf we want and only have to pay for some sleeves.

[@MrAppl3byn]

It frustrates me more that the solution seems so simple, they have already made an answer to their own question; collectors boosters. Release Double Masters at £6, a premium price for a premium set, but affordable and within reason. Then release collectors boosters at £25-30, have all new art in them, bonus rares, high mythic chances, whatever. THOSE are for the whales!! Everyone can get a blightsteel colusus, Mr Whale can get a fancy full art version worth quadruple the value, but the base card and it’s impact on the game is available relatively easy to everyone. It just feels so simple ....

[@innarrixl6753]

Didn't they announce VIP boosters for this...which makes their argument so much worse

[@cireegdoh]

I can't wait to see the price of these VIP boosters they are referring too. If Double Masters is for the whales...these VIPs are going to be for the Megalodons.

[@patrickmchugh4616]

I totally agree. As long as the collector's edition or special full alternate arts are sufficiently rare enough, the existence of reprints shouldn't drive down the value of the "special versions." The secret lair fetches wouldn't depreciate in value if the original, normal border fetches were reprinted en masse. It's almost as if WotC is trying to force "non-whales" to be financially reckless and buy premium products because it's the only option. I'm really baffled why WotC just doesn't do both, as you suggested. Premium, exclusive original art special editions for the whales, and regular reprints for everyone else. It's not very complicated and it would sell a lot more product overall in my estimation.

[@bacurana]

They are using the pretense of collectibility to turn these highly desired cards (loads of them staples that are out of this world expensive for most ppl) into exclusive products for rich people, without letting the rabble access the part of the GAME that touches those cards.

[@benriemersma8137]

@@bacurana it's being used as tax free gambling by coastal elites

[@nicholaseikelberry8009]

There's a difference between a company making money, and being predatory. WoTC is quickly trending towards the latter....

[@Jesse110]

It's definitely already there

[@deanofcool]

100% agree. Unfortunately.

[@christopherclayton5500]

I have a little brother, and that "How to Monetize Teens" thing hit me hard for this reason.

[@nicholaseikelberry8009]

@@christopherclayton5500 I can't believe that was a goddamn lecture at GDC. So gross. I watched the Jimquisition that Vince referenced...highly recommended.

[@carpunch3446]

I'm just copying my comment on the post that the professor shared of the Mark Rosewater post on tumblr: TL:DR; They don't reprint cards effectively enough. "If the cards in those products were already affordable, and available for players who wanted them, I'd be fine with any new collector sized, full art, and amazingly awesome version they made after. Such as, Mana Crypt. If i could walk down and pick one up for 10-25 (which I know is absurdly priced), I wouldn't care that there's this unique and desirable one so much. Playing the game is my main concern, and several of my group has gotten into cEDH recently. We had a no proxy rule, and now we have to seriously look at changing that just so i can play with them. It feels bad to me that I am unable to play a version of this game, with the game pieces, at my local LGS because this is a desirable card. Most players, will understandably, give all sorts of work-arounds, or what-about-isms, or excuses as to why this won't happen. The biggest hurdle for WOTC right now, is that they printed how many 25-30 dollar secret lairs, just to print a 200+ fetch land set of a highly sought after game piece. This only helped villainize them and their actions as not just a corporation that wants to make a profit, but degraded the trust of the community (the players i know at least). It's seeing the Commander 2020 precons with laughable land bases, but also a cycle of land (triomes) from the very set they are supposed to be inspired by, not even included. There are very small, and minor adjustments that can be made to just bring good will to the player base. And if those types of adjustments were made, printing highly desired cards in a one off kind of design, would still pull money into their company, and not leave everyone ticked off. Just my three cents, because i like to give a little more than expected. (PS, "reprint fetch lands you cowards.)"

[@drakeconsumerofsoulsandche4303]

The 2020 land bases are actually pretty good

[@floatinghandsmtg9360]

Your no proxy rule increases the demand for a tight supply of cards. If its an LGS rule, which would make sense because if people always played with proxies they wouldn't make any money, that is fine. If its a 'community rule' I think you need to reconcile your desire to own the card and your desire to play with the card. If it was just a desire to play with the cards, use proxies.

[@nickd6303]

Comparatively, Konami does a better job when it comes to reprints.

[@___ooobodybagooo___]

TL:DR. Just skimmed around.

[@P-0-Seventeen]

@@nickd6303 Konami does a better job at reprinting but then the card later gets limited or banned after a couple months of play, and then the card's phased out of the meta. There's a few exceptions, but Konami knows what they're doing and it's a shitty marketing tactic so they're not innocent either.

[@ZakanaHachihaCBC]

Anouncment stream for Double Masters: This product is to help players get into Modern and the older formats! MaRo: Double Masters is for the higher income players. THAT is very upsetting.

[@ryanjgrande]

Clearly they meant: this is for rich new players to get into historic formats. We don't want poor people to play anything but standars and pauper.

[@WambwneD]

@@ryanjgrande Even standard is expensive as fuck. Ever watched prices for stuff like Uro or Teferi? And then shit rotatesand you need to get new ones anyway, with everything you got falling in price. You won't be playing anything but mono red in standard either lol.

[@W1DO]

@@WambwneD mono red isnt cheap either

[@RiseInAfterlife]

@@WambwneD Forget rotation, every new set you have to invest quite a lot of money to either upgrade your deck or build an entirely new one cause your old one fell out of the playable list.

[@gypsieking3280]

Thank you! They announced the set as an entry to older formats but then price it like a premium collectors set. Utter bull.

[@JoelBurger]

The argument that "they're corporations and they need to make money" falls apart when selling 5 cents worth of cardboard for $4 is already ridiculously profitable

[@jalchi8367]

especially when they sell 5 Fetches for 20 Dollers they would sell millions

[@hulkhogansgianttaint9451]

@@jalchi8367 I was getting slammed on Saffron Olives Twitter when he was in favor of "premium product" when I broached your point. WOTC shills can be just the worst.

[@assault410]

The materials for a card might cost 5 cents but someone still has to make the art, design the card, print the card etc etc. All those costs need to be covered and included. I think MTG is too expensive but this argument is head scratching.

[@Baby_boodle]

Granted there's R&D costs, shipping costs, logistical hurdles, so on and so forth. I'm sure that they don't profit in excess of $3.50 per booster. However with this most recent release it's just... far too much.

[@xylophone897]

The thing is, R&D and art and stuff is a one time cost for each set. The only cost that scales with the size of the playerbase is actual production. As the game gets bigger, the cost of making a set becomes increasingly closer per booster to just how much it takes to make each of those boosters.

[@cambamboozle]

"It's unfair to the richer people unless we price out the poor people?!?!" really sent me.

[@WambwneD]

Yep. These fuckers have lost the plot.

[@cronnie994]

I think that point is what hit me as well. I think I'm done with paper Magic. It's sad, but I just don't want to be a part of this.

[@xChikyx]

dont let the plebs interact with the wealthy...

[@extrudatinoal]

If it wasn't for that I love this game and the fact that I'm so deeply invested in it through my friends, decks and even my cube, I would have jumped ship. Part of me still wants to, not because I'm tired of the game but I'm tired of the way WoTC handles themselves and by extention, us. If it was a videogame I could simply delete off of my computer without feeling any remorse I probably would have done it. I just want to play high-power magic without shelling out my left kidney alongside my monthly salary. If they want to gate off certain cards (fetches) so much, why not just put them on the reserve list already?

[@CJ-nd9gg]

Surely if you tell your friends how you feel about this, they will just allow jou to print / proxy the decks you want to play and let you get off the financial treadmill? This is a game, not a pyramid scheme

[@divineshadow-gathererofmag7710]

I did quit paper magic a few days ago and I don't feel sadness for it. I love the game but hate the company and it's just unfortunate what has happened.

[@SirPream]

The fetches are on the rumored reserved list 2.0. The list basically exists so that WOTC can reprint those cards, buy will only do so for premium product.

[@griz276]

I am probably going to jump ship, I have my cards when I want to play commander or pioneer or modern, however I simply don't have to add any new bs that wizards comes up with. I still have all my decks for when I want to play them, but I am putting Wotc on a timeout since they very clearly can't stop themselves from trying to just print money.

[@timepaintertunebird8160]

Come play Penny Dreadful! They have high power decks for super cheap. Last season had channel, this season has mind's desire, both seasons had ungodly good Sligh decks.

[@NOZxVIPER]

I'm so grateful to have KZbinrs like yourself and the Prof, who give a voice to the players who just want to play magic without it costing an arm and a leg. I one hundred percent agree with all your points, thank you so much for all you do for this community.

[@jacobkempic9022]

WotC: "We don't acknowledge the secondary market" also WotC: "The price of a reprint set determines what can go in it" Vince & the rest of us: "Please clarify why?" WotC: "No" Hmmmm..... I wonder if they might use the existence of the secondary market as a way to figure out exactly how much they can milk us for. I wonder if maybe they figure out what they can charge for a set so that the EV of a box is just barely more on average than the price of the product. Except I don't wonder. I know. The pattern is clear, MaRo basically admitted to it, and its a depressingly common business tactic. WotC is going the way of EA and Activision. Magic is going to get fucked if they don't wise the fuck up soon.

[@zackwozniak8384]

It's especially rancid when you remember that Expeditions, Masterpieces and Invocations were all available in Standard aimed product. It's all corporate lies, fed to us to mask greed. Read every comment Mark Rosewater makes as "we can make more money this way" and everything makes much more sense.

[@pnyhmsmx]

I actually wonder at this point how much Wizards makes money by selling cards through secondary market through proxies and by selling counterfeits through foreign channels

[@benlittle5543]

You had me at "seize the means of production" I all honesty, thank you for being a voice for reasonably priced COMPETITIVE gaming for MTG.

[@aidancarmody877]

Just one thought, wouldn't a whale rather have the product cheaper so that the whale can buy more of it?

[@subrosian2323]

This is what I was thinking too. Even if a product's price point is lower, the so-called "whales" would likely still invest a similar amount of money as with the higher price point... They'd just be buying more product. The only rebuttal I can think of is that maybe the margins on the actual printing/distribution process are enough to dissuade WotC? Somehow I strongly doubt that.

[@123darkdeal]

Not if the cost is so prohibitively expensive for the masses that it severely reduces the supply in the market, thus increasing their return on investment.

[@ashrog82]

I thought the same thing in regards to a mobile game I play. "How many people really buy these microtransactions at $20-30? If they were $5, I might buy them, and surely more people would as well. And the whales would just buy more!" I found out that the company's reasoning is this: "Whales will buy no matter what, and free-to-play players will not buy no matter what". So they set the prices as high as possible, because whales will pay it. Obviously, Magic is a little different, because you can't be a true "free-to-play" player, but the mindset still holds.

[@drakeconsumerofsoulsandche4303]

@@ashrog82 what game was it for you? For me, who plays world of warships, I've seen people playing ships that cost £75-80

[@Fleato]

Wales don't care.

[@brendan-kfp7.62mmminigun4]

Mark: How should we sell these? Everyone: put cards we want, with the old art and a new set symbol, in a $5 pack. Mark: $15 draft format with new art in an underprinted box? E: nono, that's not what- Mark: oh okay, $400 fetxh lands and we'll all pretend you are buying it for the box. Loud and clear.

[@deanofcool]

Sad but true

[@monolith94]

People need to stop buying this shit or it’ll keep happening. I paid for one modern masters draft back in the day, and no more after that. Only regular boosters for me

[@afspeellijstnaruto]

@@monolith94 Agreed 100 %! If only we could start up a decent 'boycot'' :c. I only buy singles nowadays. Screw wizards and their dumbass prices for fucking cardboard.

[@Syne111]

2yrs later, Fetches are $10 and MTG went from an opportunity cost, to a sunken cost. You got your wish. Cards are no longer investable. Yay.

[@maryc5759]

I agree with you on the “unfairness” point. “The richer people want the right to spend more of the money than they have to”. I think most people (except I guess the finance) would not mind spending less.

[@Durgenheim]

Yeah... even rich people would be happy to spend less money on this game. They love getting deals!

[@armenianzombie]

@@Durgenheim they love feeling like they got the better of something, not necessarily that the deal was "good" overall.

[@bdrsescanor6804]

In my opinion i dont think rich people would mind spending less so they have more money to spend xD

[@deanofcool]

I think if the product was cheaper the rich people would just buy more of it. It’s stupid because then everyone would win. Let’s say it was the price of a normal booster box, I could buy one and be happy, and the whales could buy 3 and be happy. Cheap products sell better.

[@trowawayacc]

They can have profit and grow the game but they need explosive growth. This greed issue with the gaming industry is killing it and sane individuals will just do some other hobbie that does not require excesive investment mtg represents nlw.

[@christiannettel6157]

I've been playing Magic the Gathering for the last 10+ years and I have never felt Legacy, Vintage, or Modern were affordable. The fetch lands and reserve list are pretty much what have kept me out of these formats.

[@Niedomysm]

Wizards CANNOT pretend like the secondary market exists and then also say "The Price of a set directly affects the cards that we can reprint in a set"

[@couldntpickausername4099]

or list to us about the price of secret lair fetchlands and then charge something like 8 times the price for it compared to other secret lairs.

[@Niedomysm]

@@couldntpickausername4099 ya that is also true

[@heepajunk]

Without card availability, it's *pay to win*

[@hulkhogansgianttaint9451]

And this leads to a degrading player base. I was the only "whale" at my shop back in Chicago. People would NOT play Modern, Legacy, and EDH with me because I played powerful cards and they simply couldn't afford the good cards. I adjusted my decks to play with them because they were my friends but this long term is not sustainable. I've played in other shops with a handful of "whales" and they don't care about people's economic situations and would rather stomp them. I've heard sooo many times, "if you can't afford the cards, don't play the game" and "its and expensive hobby". I feel the rot of society is creeping into our card game we love so much. Greed and profit above all.

[@rabbithole8858]

@@hulkhogansgianttaint9451 well said. I'm about done with Magic. Aside from Covid, it's gotten ridiculously expensive. Wizards is trying to drop the hint that they don't want people with limited finances playing their game. That's how I feel about it. It's become a privileged game.

[@pnyhmsmx]

@@rabbithole8858 to think Wizards loves to get political with "diversity " points while ignoring financial things

[@kyleoates6367]

@@pnyhmsmx Diversity is a distraction from the real problem with society. Classism. Who is talking about rich privilege while white, male, x, y, z, privilege "exists"?

[@vladplasmius2854]

Now this, THIS is the kind of subject that deserves an on target, point-by-point, angry rant. Agreed on all points, by the way.

[@michaelwagner7869]

-from a whale I love this game and everything about it and have played modern, legacy and commander for years, but as of late wizards of the coast recently has started to price out a lot of people that I've played with over the years. In my opinion, I don't care if they reprint the cards i own and make worth less if the other option is to sit there and not have anyone to play with essentially making the cards i bought worth nothing.

[@vekeuimonen11]

Umm, wouldnt you rather have both? New commander precons, cheaper version of modern horizons and other products like these give a good way for players with lower budget to get into the format without crushing the prices of old cards. I hate these large scale reprint sets and wish they would release reprints more slowly and not reprint something like mana crypt twice in a year to totally crash the cards value. Mystery booster alone gave way more than enough reprints for the whole year. All other products could be all new cards.

[@Dutchlad112]

​@@vekeuimonen11 I was lucky enough to get a mana crypt from mystery boosters so i shouldn't complain really, but.... If it's up to me they print it 5 more times in the next 3 years, making the price drop to 5 bucks would be sweet, same with mana drain, doubling season, and any other overpriced single. Is it over 20 bucks? REPRINT ASAP!! "Investors" can then go away to play with reserve list, because that will never drop in price probably, and the rest of us can play proper magic without spending thousands on a (not even always competitive) 60-100 card deck. One could go broke on just having playsets of non reserve list LANDS!! Breeding pool still 12 euro minimum on cardmarket, and that's WITH the recent standard reprint. More reprints please, make them count aswell!

[@Dutchlad112]

And the 12 euro breeding pool isn't even english :P

[@alexandernavari3133]

@@Dutchlad112 Furthermore there should be no lands that are above $20. You need a good mana base to play the game so they should just reprint lands that people need and stop pretending they are premium products.

[@vekeuimonen11]

@@Dutchlad112 would you buy yourself a box of mystery booster if all the rares cost 10% of what they do now? There needs to be super expensive cards for buying mtg products to make sense. If your 5$ boosters only had 0,2$ bulk rares and 1-5$ chase rares would anyone buy it? No, ofc not. You need cards that are worth almost the whole box. If you are poor and dont want to spend a lot of money than dont whine about not being able to get all the best stuff. 99% of magic cards are worthless bulk and im just rambling by now...

[@antares8826]

The name of the game has changed for me as they rekeased ultimate masters: Magic, the Proxying

[@theomcinturff1213]

Thank you so much for highlighting that besides a few recent hiccups, Magic is still fun. I've seen a lot of discussions about price dip weirdly into discussions about power creep, and while I think most people agree that Companion wasn't balanced for literally any format outside of draft, I've been relatively happy with cards made over the last year. I think conflating power creep and price is a dangerous mistake.

[@Reggaetonaldo]

Having fetch lands in standard will just show things down is a BS answer when we have Fabled Passage.

[@notreallyhere67]

And Evolving WIlds which JUST got a reprint.

[@hulkhogansgianttaint9451]

@@notreallyhere67 HoW DAre YOu ShUfFle!

[@VolvoxSocks]

There are currently 77 cards in standard that utilize 'shuffling' many of which are or were format staples. The shuffling is boring boohoo excuse was always bs.

[@pairot01]

The only reason they made triomes fetchable was to have an excuse to not reprint fetches in standard. Mark my words, there will always be fetchable duals (or trilands, whatever) in standard.

[@xXEPIKgamerXx]

As a pokemon player, magic players who complain about shuffling because it takes a couple seconds extra time seem like such impatient whiny children, or least that's what id say if the children I often played against pre-covid didn't have just as much skill if not maturity and patience as adults at the table imo. Having said that where does that leave the whiners?

[@bshell1731]

Wizards is straight losing out on business. Whenever a masters set was released my friends and I would buy a box to draft. Sometimes we individually would buy a box to draft and a box to crack. Since the price increase with ultimate we no longer buy this product. I had 3 friends quit magic because of the price and powerful new cards/bans pushing their deck out of the meta. The Whales can't support wizards forever. The cards will lose all their value if no-one wants to play the fucking game.

[@deanofcool]

Spot on.

[@ChilleDINJerseY]

Agreed. Iv hates the recent argument that “voting with your wallet won’t do anything, magic players will still buy it” that has hundreds of upvotes on reddit. It absolutely WILL work. People are pissed. Play at my LGS plummeted. My friends either sold out or have no interest to play. They are NOT too big to fail. They are currently, in fact, failing. They’ll feel it

[@anblueboot5364]

Me and 3 of Friends, I only Play at locals for Prerelease, Just bought and share a Display together to Draft with. Than my LGS had an : we nearly Gift all of our Common and uncommon cards Weekend, so I Set down for 15 hours and build myself my First Cube with their cards and bought it Afterwards. For the simple reason : now I can Infinitly Draft and don't need to by a single Booster Pack in my Life again, If I want to Mix Things Up I can Just use the cards from the Display or the Packs I've cracked Prior. Cause this seems for the Most affordable way to Play the Game for us in our super small Environment + we get to do the Things we Like which is Deck building and playing together either in 2 v 2 or 1v1v1v1

[@RrraverCrow]

I can see the next prof video intro "Many Magic The Gathering players ask the question: Why does Mark Rosewater hate poor people?"

[@Chidon0]

Its shows where theyre priorities are. Plus , it could easily be blown too a whole scale pr nightmare.

[@RrraverCrow]

@@Chidon0 I could see it being the whole "don't you guys have phones" fiasco of 2020 for magic.

[@Cannonhead]

Thank you for giving our frustrations a voice. Please never stop.

[@rasetsu6146]

I was eagerly waiting for your video. Thank you.

[@ronanobrien88]

It's like they are building a second reserve list that they can break when the price is right

[@TheHortoncrow]

You can't be more right. The game is gonna implode before it gets better. The price of a Legacy deck use to be a joke. The fact that I sold a single deck, and made more then a months income is fucked.

[@pnyhmsmx]

@@TheHortoncrow what deck was that? I've been wondering just how stupid prices have gotten since I last checked legacy prices

[@patrickbidwell6799]

Even if you have a lot of money, why would a consumer want a more expensive product? That doesn't make sense. Oh yes, whales would feel left out if we didn't scrape all of the money out of their wallets as well!

[@hyfy-tr2jy]

being a Whale has NOTHING to do with spending a lot of money (money means nothing to whales) or is it about buying quantity....its about owning what others don't or can't have. Being a whale is a mindset that people who don't live there will never truly understand

[@shadyoakum9978]

You are being critical in the best way. Calm well thought out and reasonable. I believe you presented the situation in the best possible way. Very upbeat as well. Thank you for your time.

[@ChetSkolos]

I feel like Wizards of the Coast think Scalding Tarn is just a premium version of Highland Lake.

[@pnyhmsmx]

It's unfortunate Wizards is exploiting unintended fetchland interactions with Delve, Delirium and future grave mechanics as a reason to sell fetches for hundreds of dollars

[@StullOtopen]

My playgroup has now agreed to just get proxies from now on, there pricing was splitting friendships because only a handful could afford the fun draft sets with worthwhile cards. I feel dumb now for not using proxies earlier.

[@krhodes866]

They also announced there would be a VIP version of double masters... so who tf is that for?? The whale whales??? Like what?! Just have the VIP be for the whales and the normal double masters be priced as the last masters sets

[@dionderksen6521]

Were going to need more descriptors if they start make products for the whales of whales

[@runcmd1419]

@@dionderksen6521 Giant Squids

[@fogo8929]

Wizards are going to be greed until they ruin the game sadly

[@x3xDair]

Clearly the VIP version is for the double whales, judging by this stupid set theme.

[@TheAaronir3]

Lol if only we knew what we know now

[@davidfields5375]

We've gone past "this product isn't for you" to "this game isn't for you" at warp 9

[@couldntpickausername4099]

my reponse to "it'll break standard" is "then break standard" Honestly it's really the masters series thing that bothers me. They wanna make secret lairs and spellbooks every day? fine, but give us the masters sets at a reasonable price. Take the concept of coresets, masters series and modern horizons and combine them into a modern core set that is priced slightly above normal packs, like a dollar or more more and have one every 2 years on a schedule. Throw in some new cards like Horizons but fill it with reprints. Print enough of it for everyone and then sell it. If all these products aren't for me then what products are for me? the commander decks? with their weaksauce mana bases that I gotta swap half of? standard boosters where you keep putting cool things in and yanking them away or region locking them?

[@aidanquiett668]

"It'll break standard!" Its standard in 2020, that is all they do nowadays

[@yongjs000]

The outcry is more of stuff breaking older formats.

[@yongjs000]

Another thing secondary card market is controlled.not by wotc but by the market

[@KINGxTIM]

"This product isn't for you" should mean that it's for a format you don't want to play, not because WOTC wants to price people out of playing it.

[@Joshy_369]

They already have the reserve list as an Old Boys club gateway. Would really like to see that gone too.

[@777CrimsonChaos]

I know I’ve already said it before elsewhere, but what really gets me is that they announced Double Masters to make cards for older formats more accessible, especially for newer players. Then the prices go up and Mark makes that statement, which essentially backpedaled on the accessibility claim. An accessible product is one that is made widely available as well as affordable to a wide audience. When you price part of that audience out, it is no longer considered accessible.

[@Syne111]

For most of Magic's 30yr history, you could invest an amount into cards and they'd pay dividends within a few years. There was opportunity cost, but no sunken cost. To me, this is pretty generous to players who get to enjoy the cards, then profit from them down the road. Now, people who complain about the opportunity cost have ruined this model, and WOTC has turned it into a sunken cost, but now cards are "cheaper" so apparently that's a win? I will never understand people. You had a gold mine, but you pissed it away.

[@BlueInkAlchemy]

I really hope it's not the case that Wizards want to see paper Magic die. That would deal a serious blow to my soul, and to the souls of a lot of us who've been around since the game began.

[@Mtgplayer182]

I’m sorry I’m commenting this again: bring msrp back wizards. Please put this on a shirt, Vince. Hope you’re having a good day.

[@davedussault8324]

Lack of MSRP isn't the problem. Removing MSRP didn't cause this. Bringing it back fixes nothing. The people who continue to cry about MSRP don't understand what MSRP was.

[@briankohlman227]

Thank you for taking the time to educate us all (myself included). it’s very eye opening to hear things from this perspective. I appreciate your ability to remain fair but still critical. With that and the points you’ve made I think it’s time I walk away from magic. I can’t see wizards changing their philosophy any time soon. Best wishes mate

[@PiroMunkie]

I brought this up in a post from the Professor recently as well, but another thing is simply the fact that basically every non-standard product is designed as a "premium" product. And there are way more non-standard products these days than standard products, and now non-standard products are coming with premium products attached to them. Players are being told much more often than not that "this product isn't for you." Secret Lairs are predatory. Masters sets are predatory. Commander sets are slowly creeping up in price. Not saying "seize the means of production," but even considering the cost of ink cartridges it'd be more economical for MTG players to just invest in a quality printer if all you do is play at home. You should low-key try and get Devin from Legal Eagle to do a real law review about the topics of your Magic: The Gambling episode with the Professor.

[@deanofcool]

Preying on people’s fomo is indeed powerful.

[@bwahchannel9746]

I love how the guy thinks they con't control the price when little under two weeks ago Maro literally said Price point determines what's in a reprint set. Also that last paragraph makes it sound like WOTC think richer players or affluent players have some sort of Aporophobia or feel insulted paying less for a product.

[@thehatcaseonyoutube]

Oh God that blog post actually broke me.

[@pretends2know]

Yeah, I need to look at that myself because that sounds so cringy... actually, Wizards may want their marketing and legal teams to look over that post.

[@drakeconsumerofsoulsandche4303]

That's actually one of his better editions

[@PhoenixianDragon11]

It really does feel like the whole "this product isn't for you" mentality that Wizards has adopted recently, is just them saying that this game isn't for you unless you have the income to throw at these ludicrously overpriced products. Many of the premium products they've come out with recently are things that I see and go "wow, yeah I want that" until I remember it's going to be way too expensive. It's this weird place to be in where you look at all the products available and feel like nothing is worth it to buy. "Draft" boosters are such a roll of the dice you might as well just get singles, Collector boosters are skirting the line of being too expensive to justify the purchase, and everything else just gets pricier from there. Even Commander decks (which is what I play and where my love for this game comes from) just feel like a waste; with land-bases that are janky as hell, only a handful of decent cards, and maybe the one chase card that every commander deck now wants from that year. There are good products that I would love to buy and draft and collect, but damn... guess I'm just too poor to play this game that I really love. PS Would love to see Arin (of egoraptor/GameGrumps) join your streams/edh games! would definitely tune in for that!

[@gerardoramos3179]

This post broke my heart reading and I think Wotc is collectively breaking the hearts of thousands of players who just want to play the game they love but can't afford it with how they manage their products.

[@humphrex]

@@gerardoramos3179 just print proxies

[@Nino4999th]

Videos of Vince just talking about some aspect of this game are honestly some of my favourites

[@stepniak18]

Players: At least we have Commander. WotC hiding a box of Commander Legends behind their back: Yea, about that...

[@captainkarnage9874]

WoTC: How do we make 40,000K look cheap?

[@deanofcool]

Yeah it’s getting kinda ridiculous, funny thing is most 40k players I know at my age group have quit because gw has priced them out, so WotC should stop and reconsider their current trend imo. I wonder if vince plays 40k? Or is at least knowledgeable enough about Games workshop to make comparisons?

[@v5vendeta]

Honestly I made the switch a couple years ago and haven't looked back. For the price of a cheap modern deck you can build a 1000 pt army that gives you hours of hobby time building painting and playing. And there are no scarcity issues. My hobby dollar goes much further nowadays with gw than with wotc

[@andrewboyko8304]

With PK and The Prof both talking about whaling I can already feel spicy boi lurking in the background ready to bring the deep social cut.

[@Joel-wf7is]

But if we seize the means of production, we can finally reprint fetch lands!

[@reeceumney]

Love the Philip Defranco reference!!!! And you are spot on, wizards are being predatory and greedy in the worst way and it will kill they customer base and the respect that players have.

[@xaeraellockwood2365]

Masters made me quit magic a few years ago after playing, supporting and promoting the game to others since 1995. I'm more than flush enough to afford the product, but I just see the whole "premium products" thing as pure exploitation of the players who can't really afford the "high-end" products, but will effectively drain their wage packets in the hopes of pulling big cards. The original MM price point was fine, little bit more for a slightly better product.

[@LoaphMeat]

It is an amazing coincidence that this video would release right as I typed up a letter to send to Brian Lewis, sharing my appreciation for his voice in the community. That appreciation is shared to you too, Vince! Both of you are able to articulate player frustrations in a well-thought out and respectful manner. I hate to be that typical "whiney" Magic player. I love the game! I want Magic to be affordable and accessible for everyone. However, a lot of these "we're a business" decisions that Wizards keeps making has alienated my playgroup, almost completely. Even before the pandemic, we haven't had enough people to fire an FNM since October of 2019. We have a small group of new players that come in, but every time we've tried to pull them in they say the same thing: We can't afford that! They just play causal table-top Magic. My LGS has lost their WPN level from inactivity. It's so frustrating. Anyway, please keep being amazing in everything that you do, Vince! Much love and respect.

[@0dysseus42]

The simple fact is that Wizards has chosen to Exploit their players rather than Service their players.

[@TheCuriousHomunculus]

Very eloquent and erudite. Thank you for perfectly summarising my feelings on the matter.

[@HazmanFTW]

Even people with disposable income (I was pretty well off before this Covid crisis) don't want to be spending loads of money "because they can". I bought the goblins secret lair and I think they're all pretty neato I like a lot of the art and if they're

[@lunao17]

That's a very good point you made there that Wizards is essentially saying you are too poor to play the game. They need to stop catering to the MTGFinance crowd.

[@Eledan13]

I appreciate your take Vince. I'm actually generally politically opposite you, but definitely find common ground here I think. Wizards has every right to make money from their products. What has been frustrating is that for some reason Wizards seems to think that keeping the price of these cards in to 50-150$ range (400-600 for a playset) is actually their best and only way to make money here. As a free market guy I don't see how alienating a large section of your customer base and pricing them out of your game helps you as a company. It just doesn't make sense. It will certainly make money in the short term, but at the sacrifice of the long term health of the game. There was a time at my company where they started to take away benefits to "align with industry standards". I would have been happy with that excuse if just one time they increased benefits for the same reason. I bring this up because the phrase or sentiment of "this product is not for you" reminds me of it. If just one time Wizards printed a product that was not for the whales like a crappy art misprint set with valuable reprints sold for half the price of a booster or something then I'd be ok with the explanation. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case. Again, thanks for making this content and fighting to reduce these prices and let more people play the f***ing game.

[@doctoralzheimersacademiama]

Excellent Analysis! Thank you! I always disliked the arrogance of the "this is not for you"-attitude. Market speculation is evil. And I like Collector Boosters as long as they mostly provide alternative art. But better cards for richer people - its disgusting.

[@Paul-xi1zn]

My question is, how can they have a reserve list. Without acknowledging there is a secondary market?

[@walterd02]

From the stuff I’ve looked up there is no law saying they can’t acknowledge the secondary market, what it really is that if they take the price into consideration of how much they can really sell a card for and admit that these “random draft boosters” are actually a method of gambling because they acknowledge specific cards hold specific value then it becomes a matter of gambling and then this becomes a huge issue. Example like when loot boxes In video games were being torn apart all over the internet and even the news is because it technically is gambling and so is opening a pack hoping for some sweet expensive mythic. They can’t confirm the price the PLAYERS set to their product to be what they base their prices off

[@TheStephenation]

To answer that, you have to understand how the Reserved List worked historically. The first wave happened in 1995 and they used a set of rules to decide which cards from before Fallen Empires would be put on the list. Their rules actually put a lot of common and uncommon cards on the list, which they would later go back and take off the list in 2002. But later waves worked differently. Back then, a new core set was released every two years (Fourth Edition in 1995, Fifth Edition in 1997, Sixth Edition in 1999, and Seventh Edition in 2001). And with each core set, WotC would take the rares from the expansion sets before the previous core set and add them to the Reserved List. At first it was supposed to be all of those rares, but later they changed it to only be some of them. They never talked about their selection process for this, but it seemed to be the case that they would exclude cards that they were interested in possibly adding to a core set later. That's why it wasn't always the good cards that were added to the list. For instance, Oath of Ghouls is on the Reserved List, while Oath of Druids (the good Oath) was left off the list and was eventually reprinted. Once the slate of cards for a given set were added to the Reserved List, that was it. So the list is weird and doesn't make much sense, and it's really bad for the game, but it's entirely likely that the secondary market had no influence on which cards were added to the list.

[@anblueboot5364]

I think it was more a gift to the players who started collecting since day 1 to be like : Hey you've been with us from the beginning so we'll protect this collection by not reprinting it so it's always special. At least that is the idea I got from it, like look at yu-gi-oh, cards from their first set legends of blue eyes are like worth nothing you can buy the whole set for a few euroes, most likely the shipping coast is higher than the card. (ofc not talking about PSA10 1st Ed. LOB or the one that 's even more expansive the DDS Version with the anime artwork and special foiling, just talking about those lightly to heavily played cards, cause about the PSA 10 stuff I just don't care) Till recently I thought this was a bad thing,... but now where I see how troublesome the WotC reprinting policy is for actualy playing and enjoying the game I'm happy that it doesn't exist there even when prices just crash with 1 reprint as a common. (Konami : you can build an affordable rogue/competitive deck with buying 3x structure decks and even win tournaments with those (which would cost only 30 euro !) WotC : wait that's an illegal move) Don't misunderstand me Konami has some other problems to deal with like short printing cards , imagine getting the strongest card 1-3 times per case lul X'D

[@blazesantiago2365]

Saw you on dies to removal, definitely a fan of your perspective/commentary. Keep up the good work Vince.

[@williamsimkulet7832]

18:00 - It strikes me Fetchlands could run through standard every 2 years, alternating with Ravnica duals, provided they don't need to print the bicyclers and tricyclers too near fetchlands. And yeah, I think the Core Set should make an effort to print things like Narcomoeba and Death's Shadow - Modern cards that don't see play in standard, but might still be fun in draft.

[@Ahyescoolcool]

an actual reason that fetches can’t be put in a standard set with shock lands is because of the amount of time it wastes in the round. it’s a real thing judges complained about lmao

[@drakeconsumerofsoulsandche4303]

I dont mind fetches as long as they're not in a standard with fetchable lands

[@josephhawkins7974]

@@Ahyescoolcool that's why they put fetches in standards that don't have fetchable duals.

[@rabbithole8858]

But people who invest in Magic cards (not to actually play the game, but make money off of them) will be very upset that cards they don't use lose value, so they can't oversell it to some little kid who doesn't know better. How will sharks make their money?

[@drakeconsumerofsoulsandche4303]

@@rabbithole8858 by buying them cheap now and waiting 5-6 years for us all to start clamouring for reprints yet again

[@shinsenrock]

Ugh kenobi I love how well thought out your videos out. Feel like it's so hard to craft a well-thought-out conversation nowadays

[@Vian888]

Dead on accurate, and that’s from someone that has the disposable income to be a whale but finds this whole thing fairly insulting. The fetchlands are a perfect example of something that should be printed into oblivion in every nonstandard set and then put out alt art/premium treatments to monetize the wealthier players that want that. Seems pretty obvious and it’s irritating that Maro and others don’t see that. Another example is Atraxa. The card is $45 and obviously needs a reprint. I’d happily spring for the full art version in a premium product except that this reprinting is not going to lower the card’s price and that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Transparently exploitive and not something I want to support.

[@deanofcool]

Thank you, that’s refreshing to hear from someone who has the disposable income that WotC are pretending to appeal to. As someone who doesn’t have that kind of income, fact is staples are just too expensive for me to buy. Buy it seems that we all agree that the price points are an issue.

[@humphrex]

Wannabe whale

[@thedrakefrost]

Love the Phillip Defranco mention, I too enjoy his content and yours as well. I agree that Wizards is doing the opposite thing they publicly say they won't do, which is to slowly make paper magic obsolete.

[@LLmsn941]

About 7 minutes in, Well we could have had a two versions of the same product (double!), the normal masters that wouldn't have the boxtoppers and a premium version with the box toppers and a chance of getting them in the packs, prices could have been 150 and 300 (double!!), So the poor players would be getting reprints into the market and at a reasonable price while the whales would get the super over priced premium cards. 14 minutes in: Completely agree, you mean to tell me Mark that there were no whales in magic before Premium products were introduced or that whales do not buy standard booster box? Because I'm sure as hell it wasn't me buying cases of kaladesh trying to get invention mana crypt. Over now, agree with all points, as a commander player here, I can say I have spent some money on RL cards and promos, but we have to have in mind the time frame of it, I've been building a blinged out version of a deck for more than 2 years, I didn't dump the list in CK and run with it. Also, we clearly see that wizards took the heart too many lessons from mobile games that monetize the gameplay but they end up being forgotten 3-5 years down the line instead of things that have shown to grow and thrive like LoL.

[@aidanquiett668]

Thing is, there are 2 versions of the product. They will also have collectors boosters for this. 100 dollar PACKS soon coming to an LGS near you

[@drewharmon2300]

You nailed it. There should be expanded access to needed pieces for play, with differentiation at customization!

[@bahyurur6792]

I'm pretty sure they'd still make more money by selling these at a lower price point, not less. Ya know? Like, I won't be buying any of these packs, and I spend tons of money on magic every month. Like Vince said, we're getting a whole set that you just can't justify drafting, over priced so that the reprints practically don't matter.

[@aidanquiett668]

If it was an 8 dollar pack, it would suck, but players would eat it up. 30 dollar drafts getting awesome cards from magic's past and knowing you had a chance to leave with super valuable cards is amazing, mystery booster showed this. As is, no one can afford to draft this, and the main way they sell packs is gone

[@TheMattmatic]

Great video Vince, agree with almost everything you said here. As a non-native English speaker, I also appreciate the slower pace. Some of your videos feels like I'm trying to understand an Eminem verse because you're talking so fast :D Not this one though.

[@universe7708]

Starts to feel a bit like classism when people support a heavy price barrier to entry.

[@zadros7]

LOL

[@annmurry8589]

What if a limited number of proxies were allowed in certain store events (maybe not official tournaments)? There could be some tournaments could be limited like drafts or pre-release events. If solutions aren't coming from the company itself then individual stores or playgroups could provide some solutions.

[@andrewallstar2719]

“Double Masters is underpriced” -our lord and savior alpha investments

[@manda60]

God that guy is an asshat.

[@WambwneD]

Honestly, as chill as Rudy seems to be as a person, he's the epitome of the rich mtg finance people. You won't be able to discuss these things reasonably with people who have power 9 cards coming out of their ass.

[@SnoozzzeButton]

If you treat MTG cards like a stock market; you should be willing to accept the risk that goes along with it. But also critical game pieces should not be able to be treated like stocks.

[@Darcmerc]

@@WambwneD But his point still stands: People will buy it. They bought Ultimate Masters at that price point, Double Masters got double the number of rares and foils per box. People will buy it at 320 per box, they would still buy it at 400-450 per box.

[@MusicalBoarder]

Fuck rudy. Seriously

[@thirdwavefinance8154]

“Contrary to popular impression, profits are achieved not by raising prices, but by introducing economies and efficiencies that cut costs of production.” - Henry Hazlitt, Economics in One Lesson Although it may be possible to extract additional profit by raising prices by more than the normal increase in costs, that advantage is only temporary. The more egregiously a company increases prices (i.e. above costs) the more the company limits their potential for future growth in several different ways: - The higher prices may be temporarily supported by consumers via debt, but the price will fall as the unproductive debt is paid back (i.e. demand for product falls, no money to buy product while debt is being paid back). Credit card debt & government stimulus fall into this category. - The consumer may decide not to purchase the product or purchase less (i.e. demand falls & price falls back). Consumer may purchase fewer boxes, less draft, buy singles on secondary market only, or stop buying. - Increased competition is incentivized (i.e. price driven down & may even be driven lower than before, adjusted for inflation, if new production efficiencies are developed). New gaming companies may form creating a product priced closer to production costs, less-egregiously-priced entertainment industries may pull consumers away from playing card games, and/or black market competition develops creating a similar product at a price closer to production cost. The important point to remember is that “introducing economies and efficiencies that cut costs of production” is what generates long-term profits; it is the inventiveness of a company, the ability to create new desirable products, and the know-how/desire to develop methods to produce/distribute those products more efficiently that generates profits. Increasing price high above production costs is a short-term tactic for a company bereft of ingenuity.

[@deanofcool]

Well put. I fell that video games, especially ones with micro transactions and outrageous costing are just learning this.

[@endersblade]

My entire argument against the whole 'premium products' is that so far, every single one of those cards was at one point available in a normal, standard booster box. It is only because of the secondary market that Wizards blatantly lies to us about that these items are now 'premium'. The Secret Lairs and their alt art are different, sure, you can't get those anywhere else. But the Masters sets are all just reprints. MTG is a game that a lot of people play. Your income should not prevent you from buying SEALED product. Secondary market is an entirely different story. Not everyone should be able to crap out a P9 set and go play Vintage. But WOTC making people spend absurd prices for things that don't cost them any more to make than a regular booster is just asinine. They have just gotten greedy and I really feel like people need to stop supporting these premium products.

[@gnomersy1087]

Why not? Why not have people crap out a P9 set and play Vintage? You know the only person that hurts? The people hoarding P9 cards to sell them either secondary sellers or WotC themselves. The people who own them in order to play with them lose value but in exchange they get the opportunity to actually keep playing Vintage instead of it becoming literally a dead format because fewer and fewer people will keep playing it when it keeps becoming more and more expensive.

[@pnyhmsmx]

@@gnomersy1087 I think he's saying people should be play anything that's feasible to spend and play. In other words vintage being cheap is a pipe dream but what about modern or pioneer?

[@kariheinrichs1559]

Mark Rosewater: I don't acknowledge the secondary market Also Mark Rosewater: I also don't want product to be released that messes with the secondary market.

[@hextamus]

So basically they're saying that a Masters set, which purpose is to reprint needed cards, is a premium product. Suuuure...

[@Butlertron11]

In all seriousness: I don't feel like I'm ever going to speak up in a meaningful way that WotC would hear me. One "minnow" not spending money on magic isn't on their radar, so I appreciate how critical Vince and the Prof of any practice, good or bad. Also I know I can't afford to get into legacy, but I do really like your budget (and non budget) deck-techs, the thought process behind what cards do what is good stuff.

[@williamsimkulet7832]

6:15 .... isn't it easy? Just print desired cards in normal standard at the normal price regularly, then do alternate arts and/or packaging for your premium nonsense. Imagine if Godzilla cards were only available in the Premium Edition nonsense boosters, but all those cards were Godzilla cards....).

[@Tamarocker88]

I don't think that would be a good idea to completely take all alternate art away from standard sets. Originally they did this with collector's editions. For Eldraine and Theros Beyond Death, all of the altered artwork variants were placed behind the collector's edition paywall. I think they nailed it with Ikoria by including some showcase variants in the standard set along with a single box topper while giving the enthusiasts the highest odds of pulling the vanity cards they desire from the collector's packs. If you took all of the godzilla cards and kept them behind the Collector's Edition paywall, only allowing the enthusiasts with sufficient disposable income to have them, you're establishing an issue of class where the less financially fortunate have no access to a variety of artwork.

[@williamsimkulet7832]

@@Tamarocker88 For a significant portion of time, classic cards - Terror, Lightning Bolt, etc. - were identifable by their art; important iconography for the game. Now, in standard, a brand new card can have upwards of 3 arts (and 2 different card "names!"; Thanks Godzilla...)(and this doesn't count "extended art"). I am okay with alternate art; and I *suppose* the occasional showcase frame (if there's some disclosure with regards to the ratios). That said, if you want to treat cosmetic differences as artificial reasons to charge extra money; they let alternate art be exclusive to limited (and thus high dollar) products.

[@TheGregoryodd]

Excellent video, and right on point across the whole spectrum of issues surrounding all of this. I’ve long thought part of the problem is that most prominent community members / content creators are reliant upon WotC for spoilers/access etc which in turn makes it difficult for anyone to aim rightful criticism at WotC for whatever the issue may be. This was perhaps illustrated best when the Prof did some of his follow up interviews regarding recent products and announcements and you could see how put off the WotC people were at actually being asked difficult questions. Proud of you both for saying what needs to be said, because, as you alluded to in the video and others have as well, WotC is playing with fire here where even the big spenders at some point are going to grow tired of this constant bombardment and decide there’s better ways to spend their money other than the next exclusive secret lair drop. Finally, the one thing I still don’t understand is how they fail to see that if they just created some reasonably priced reprint product that the whole community could buy, well, they’d have yet another evergreen revenue stream that would make them millions upon millions of dollars. Anyways, keep up the great work, PK!

[@shadowjeric]

15:40 Legit how I've been feeling. I love the game but I'm tired of this bullshit.

[@autormarioschubert9352]

It would be so easy to make Whales' Foils only displays selling for a heck of money and normal ones for normal players. Everyone would be happy with that I guess

[@emiliabyss]

"How can we make products for those with a lower price threshold." So basically we need a product that is equivalent in function but undesirable to those with high threshold of money. We've already had something like this: white-bordered cards. It's not perfect, but its a step, or at least an idea (as opposed to no ideas).

[@GroundThing]

Honestly, a thought I had a while back was what would happen if they obliquely gave their blessing for casual formats to allow gold-bordered cards, and reprinted stuff that way. Wouldn't solve all problems, but you'd see some increase in the normal supply, since players who have expensive cards, but just play stuff like commander, could replace it with a gold-bordered reprint, and for people who don't have and can't afford those expensive cards, might buy those gold-bordered cards instead of just proxying. Obviously not as good as a full-reprint, since the increase in supply/decrease in demand from casual format players probably won't bring the price down enough to eliminate the price threshold for competitive play, but if that's not something they're willing to do, then this at least keeps people from walking away entirely because they can't afford to keep up with the growing costs.

[@iudexumbra609]

That sounds too much like flagging people with less money and bringing that into the open for problems (we all know a person)

[@ty_sylicus]

Here's an idea I've been pitching for years: How about a reprint set that ISN'T MADE to be drafted? *head explodes*

[@yugioh1870]

I am at the door when it comes to magic, looking for a reason to stay and I'm not finding one

[@goncaloferreira6429]

hum, you dont like the game?

[@innarrixl6753]

I'm in the same boat. And I used to buy Evey product I could get my hands on.

[@yugioh1870]

@@goncaloferreira6429 I like the game, initially i left because i didnt like the direction magic was going and played 40k. 40k turned out to be a shitshow, so i came back, and im not enjoying myself

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@yugioh1870 arent there bad things in every game/ hobby and community? i hate magic being turned into a bunch of people complaining. would you say it is fair to imagine that one of the reasons you are not enjoying magic is that you worry about the "direction" magic is going?

[@beneven-kesef5121]

Excellent video, totally agree with everything you said. Summed up exactly how we all feel I think. I also don't think the arguement of the cards being collectible holds much water in regards to reprints, special editions and original printings they will usually hold a higher price anyways.

[@robertwhite1328]

I wasn’t sure how I’d feel about this video when I started it, but you touched on a point that really resonates with me - Modern and Legacy players are whales. I’ve watched these formats pass by my reasonable budgets for years now and I feel the same about buying a deck as I would about a new console.

[@zeFanciestBard]

How is, "The price of the product determines what we can put in it" not a blatant admittance of the secondary market? Rosewater straight up states that they can't put expensive, desirable cards in lower price sets. Why the fuck do we live in a world where pokemon will ship your LGS a flashy box set of a desirable tournament card to keep deck prices manageable but Wizards can only give an LGS 2 copies of 5 fetch lands at 350 dollars. It's a complete and utter disgrace. This whole thing is even an insult to whales. "We price it high cause we know you'll pay" is not something anyone who doesn't have virtually unlimited spending cash wants to hear.

[@SupahflyJazzguy]

I wish it were as simple as "keep the gamepieces cheap, charge a premium for alternate/full art," but unfortunately for us players with less disposable income, the whales view everything as zero-sum. Driving to the LGS in a Mercedes to bust out your fully-foiled UR delver deck is LITERALLY less fun when you have to sit across from some peasant with a budget Death and Taxes build.

[@benresor6526]

You made several great points and I really feel like they should do with Master set what they do with Standard right now. Do a booster box (priced maybe a little higher than normal) and then do collector box’s for the Whales!

[@nzbenk]

Excellent video on the subject, been thinking about this situation similarly but you've definitely made a cleaner and focused video on this subject . Your videos on these subjects always seem to line up with what communities concerns are. What I'd like to bring up as a suggestion or more or less a compromise (because I don't think they'll back down) they should just integrate collectors boosters for these master sets and then having your draft packs just like standard does, hell they can even have the showcase cards slot be full arts or what ever if they want to push the collectors booster. I love drafting these sets but I hate having to think if this is financially responsible. Hopefully they'll compromise and think about the well-being of they're player base and if anything it'll earn them alot of goodwill if they do.

[@travisbewley7084]

I'm so sad I won't be able to draft this set. 45 for a booster situation just can't be justified. In terms of commander our table has dramatically relaxed our proxy rules, most things aside from an entire proxy deck are allowed due to price