Manifesto deep-dive: Is Labour’s at all progressive? With Zoe Grunewald | Pod Save The UK

[@podsavetheworld]

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[@titaniumteddybear]

I'm a psychologist and I have to say that Labour MPs getting money from for-profit healthcare companies most certainly is a serious problem. Let me be clear: I am not accusing these representatives of doing anything unethical. But the problem is that they don't need to. There is a consensus in the research literature that when people have a financial relationship it affects how they think about each other; even if only on a subconcious level. If those MPs are getting money from healthcare companies then it will make them feel more favourably towards those companies' interests. There really isn't any way to argue against this. It is an empirical fact. But at some point we all became so desentizied to the presence of money in politics that we began to believe that it is somehow alright. It is not.

[@AlanWarrenBelfastArchitect]

Agree. How political parties are funded is a major and growing problem.

[@Wulfuswulferson]

And obviously those US healthcare firms who are giving money to our future health secretary expect a return on that, as you say it doesn't need to be a quid pro quo but they wouldn't be financially supporting Wes Streeting just cos they like him

[@vgstb]

Who Broke Britain? Part 1: Austerity | If You’re Listening ABC News In-depth kzbin.info/www/bejne/oIiVf4aor8ilf7M

[@sunseeker9581]

The labour guy challenging corbyn literally called for the nhs to be privatised a few years ago

[@AlanWarrenBelfastArchitect]

@@vgstb Yes, austerity, and that enabled less tax for the already wealthy. The very people who are funding political parties and lobby groups.

[@localshaman]

It'll be austerity but they'll give it a cutesy name like "Surgical spending"

[@nathanaelsmith3553]

"It's not austerity - it's thrift. We're just being fiscally prudent."

[@markwelch3564]

Yeah, they've already named it "fiscal discipline"

[@barryledgister4496]

Labour have all the best words. They do the same as the Tories, but give it a `cuddlier` name.

[@peterlidbetter5194]

"Tough spending rules." It's literally point one of the manifesto.

[@veggienugnugs]

How can "using resources from the private sector" alleviate stress from the NHS when the "resources" in the private sector are NHS staff moonlighting and buildings equipment and beds that were sold off and are being rented back at 4-10 times the price?

[@AlanWarrenBelfastArchitect]

Post election, the Greens could become a focus for the left and the many independents. It could become the equivalent of Reform, but on the left of Labour. Labour's problems will start soon after they form the next government. Difficult to see how they can quickly deliver anything of substance given the problems they inherit. Next May we may well see Labour as the party losing council seats.

[@Rachel-zq4ib]

i hope in future episodes, there will also be deep dives on parties like the SNP and Plaid Cymru's manifestos. the greens, labour, and the lib dems might be the parties leftie folks are most likely to vote for in England, but that's not necessarily the case elsewhere in the UK (and this is, after all, Pod Save the UK, and not Pod Save England).

[@Vulcanerd]

Coco being appalled. Appalled! At the name of the WTF segment then being mortified at the proposed rebranding to WTC was so adorable. That said, maybe we can rename it to What The Nish! 😆

[@BeccaAl]

Thanks for acknowledging my hippyness! Re 17:30 NHS vs Private healthcare or helping clear the backlog. Private healthcare, bar diagnostic and minor treatments, is done in NHS hospitals, using NHS equipment and often NHS staff. It doesn’t create more doctors or facilities, as far as this hippy is aware.

[@jasonngldn]

Exactly, all it does is help people skip the queue.

[@BeccaAl]

@@jasonngldn yes exactly, not that I’d condemn an individual for doing that, rather than suffering for longer or worse! We need real plans to attract past NHS workers back and new people training for the future.

[@jasonngldn]

@@BeccaAl was referring more to Labour's "plan" to cut waiting lists by utilising "spare" capacity in the private sector. Such spare capacity doesn't exist!

[@RobinHarris-nf4yv]

Not entirely true Those big trucks you see parked in hospitals are scanners like MRI and they are provided by the private sector. The private sector also has its own hospitals, operating theatres So it doesn’t just use NHS facilities I agree there is an issue with staff as too many NHS staff move to the private sector to earn more, that means Labours plans could accelerate that

[@jasonngldn]

@@RobinHarris-nf4yv yes but the surgeons etc are the same, they moonlight in the private sector. Also, it's a travesty that so many services in the NHS are outsourced privately: bloods, imaging, ambulances etc. That, combined with PFI and the internal market is a huge reason why the NHS needs so much money in the first place

[@jeniferdevlin6914]

How many times do we have to say this: an economy with its own sovereign currency cannot run out of money. Taxation is not needed to fund spending. Labour is proposing drastic austerity with this budget. Without public spending on infrastructure renewal, there will be no growth. The US has just approved another huge budget stimulus. Given the way we normally follow US policy, why don’t we copy them in public spending? We need public spending to stimulate the economy.

[@redflag4781]

This.

[@darrellhenry9152]

The US is the world’s reserve currency. Meaning they can spend and print money without causing a debt crisis. We saw what happened when Liz Truss tried to do an unfunded tax cut. She spooked the bond market and spiked interest and mortgage rates.

[@eriktorgler7748]

Hell, you can just follow successful entrepreneurs if you really want to be more centrist. As long as you are funding growth, borrowing is not necessarily a negative thing. If you go ahead and spend that money on things that will make your economy more productive, you are absolutely fine to borrow.

[@redflag4781]

@@darrellhenry9152 The OP wasn't advocating tax cuts, so your response is irrelevant.

[@therealrobertbirchall]

​@darrellhenry9152 Any sovereign nation with its own bank can lend itself as much money as it needs. Lending from ourselves to invest is a no brainer, the capital debt will dissappear with inflation. Gordon Brown borrowed billions to bail out the banks and Sunnack borrowed a trillion for Covid 'relief' and backhander to tory cronies. Austerity was completely unnecessary and was about tory class war on the poor they only got away with it due to economic literacy hard baked into the public discourse by the tory media.

[@thomasgrubert7819]

If we aren't moving away from austerity and moving and back to public ownership, cost for all public services will keep growing and delivery of services will keep declining.

[@AM-fs1je]

NEVER vote for "change". Be SPECIFIC-- vote for a change for the BETTER.

[@alice1374]

That's what Corbyn's would have been this time around. And is technically. Just not behind a party. I'm voting green as there's a labour landslide in this seat at the election. I dislike our labour candidate highly. And the tory one stands no chance with only 8% support in polls. 8% more than it needs to be though.

[@timothyclemson]

Can confirm. Am hippy. ❤

[@decimal1815]

All parties will raise taxes after the election. It's just a case of WHICH taxes..

[@therealrobertbirchall]

VAT and income tax to punish the poor for daring to aspire to a decent life.

[@christopheroliver8762]

​@therealrobertbirchall They've ruled out any increases to income tax, VAT and National Insurance in their manifesto. They've also ruled CGT on primary residences. Other taxes are still on the table however they've signalled they have "no plans" to increase other taxes.

[@therealrobertbirchall]

@@christopheroliver8762 we need to abolish VAT and income tax altogether or at least reduce it to stimulate the economy. As Gordon Brown did after the 2018 banking crash. Remember everyone went out and bought consumer goods because they were cheaper. Then Osborne oh my god what a nasty class warrior he is.

[@decimal1815]

@@christopheroliver8762 there is no doubt that income will need to be generated somehow. There are too many crises and huge liabilities for the UK government over the next few years, no matter who gets into power.

[@jaybee4288]

I just feel that if you’re trying to appeal to common workers and normal people you don’t send out Keir Starmer and Wes Streeting to talk. Labour are extremely fortunate that the conservatives have been so terrible in government because this Labour wouldn’t win in any other election year I can think of.

[@ladders1]

Exactly this. Labour aren't leading in the polls because of Starmer's alleged charisma, but because the Tories have been constantly shitting the bed for a decade.

[@kassistwisted]

Labour doesn't deserve to win this election. In one of the most precarious moments since WW2 - the Brexit Fiasco - Labour refused to act like an opposition party. They were too worried about losing their Red Wall voters after decades of doing nothing to keep them on side. Neo-liberalism put too much dosh in the Labour MPs' pockets I guess. From my secret lair in the Netherlands (and yeah, I know, but I'm not allowed to vote here), I am going to hope the Lib Dems win so many seats that Labour gets the deputy chair in a coalition. The Lib Dems can drag them back to being lefties. I mean, JFC, Labour. You're LABOUR! You're supposed to be SOCIALISTS! Right now you aren't even left of center!

[@SantaBJ]

Introduce a licensing scheme for private healthcare providers where they are required to contribute 50% of their annual profits directly to the NHS.

[@KristineMaitland]

Instead of WTF moments why not OH SPARE ME! Cheers from Toronto, Canada 🇨🇦!

[@alanhat5252]

There _is no spare capacity_ in healthcare! Private health workers _already_ work for the NHS, most as their main job! We know this, there is no point Starmer lying about it 😮

[@andrewrushent2737]

I think it's important to note that the State Pension is also a form of welfare but is never considered in the talks around welfare in this country. People don't find the state funding retired people controversial so why is it controversial when people are younger?

[@DarkFire515]

To be fair I think this campaign by the tories has been so insane that the current version of WTF is completely appropriate!

[@thegayathrikable]

Oh my god. I was in the same sixth form year as Zoe's sister! Nice to see shes doing so well

[@CatherineHine-vn3kq]

Really want to hear Labour talking about the early years... and not only in relation to nursery places.

[@matthewevans107]

So Wales and Scotland aren’t part of the UK? Thanks for clearing that up.

[@GlassSpiider]

Funny how people who expect everyone to do their "fair share" so often just utterly fail to recognize the "fair" part of that expectation. Quite funny.

[@jonathandnicholson]

What would be fair?

[@GlassSpiider]

@@jonathandnicholson What those people are demanding is that others do an equal share, or at least not less of it than they have. But fair and equal are not always synonymous. It is quite likely that what's being done now is as close to fair as manageable, regardless of the salty citizens getting in their emotions because they feel like they're doing more of the work than that mum on benefits.

[@CloudCuckoo00]

Yet another intelligent, interesting show. Love you all. But wtf! A Weatherspoons bar-room set? 🥴

[@jasonngldn]

Jonathan Ashworth left leaning? News to me 😂

[@farhadchaudhry]

Compared to these, Gordon Brown is a trot

[@peteradaniel]

More and more people are falling into the 40% tax bracket and the burden is falling heavily on the middle class. Labour need to do something about the direct income tax system, otherwise nothing will. It’s ridiculous at this point.

[@vgstb]

How many times do we have to say this: an economy with its own sovereign currency cannot run out of money. Taxation is not needed to fund spending. Labour is proposing drastic austerity with this budget. Without public spending on infrastructure renewal, there will be no growth. The US has just approved another huge budget stimulus. Given the way we normally follow US policy, why don’t we copy them in public spending? We need public spending to stimulate the economy.

[@peteradaniel]

@@vgstb two pronged. Decrease the wealth gap and spend on services. Tax and spend. Labour will do neither.

[@Vulcanerd]

I’m waiting for Coco to admonish Nish at some point by declaring, “Nishant Kumar! I am appalled! Appalled!! What would your mother think?!” 😂❤

[@BeccaAl]

Lovely show, lovely guest, Dawn Butler rapping 21 days to go! 🤷🏻‍♀️ why not ey?!

[@constancebay1612]

Coco, we use all words at our house. We don't discriminate.

[@bobkaye3122]

Labour aren't going to say "surprise" and start fixing things. If they were a flavour, labour would be the bland droplets of water that you get underneath a lid of vanilla ice cream. They're utterly devoid of passion for the people, or any hint of personality.

[@ankejl3830]

In the Netherlands we have a lot of very small parties, with only one or two MP's, and very often they have been able to pull the debate to their side and make their opinions mainstream where they were previously considered outlandish. So 3 Green Party MP's do have the opportunity to normalize the idea of a wealth tax if they go about it smartly.

[@decimal1815]

I don't agree with voting age of 16 personally, but it won't stop me voting for them.

[@sarahkelly473]

As a teacher, same

[@rubaiyat300]

I doubt it’s about actually getting a lot of teen voters. It’s about getting 20 year olds that much more engaged and experienced (and experienced at losing elections) when elections come around.

[@localshaman]

The best line I've heard, albeit a bit crass is "If the law says you're old enough to F*ck an MP then you're old enough to vote for one"

[@jaybee4288]

No, it’s literally to get 16 year olds to vote. One of labours big problems is that as people live longer, the Tory/right wing vote of the elderly lasts longer. By allowing 16 year olds to vote (and they will vote as their first time to do so), they add a couple of years to the traditionally younger left wing vote.

[@kerrynewnham8946]

The new grey man of politics

[@fizzy3949]

Spot on about the NHS. There is a fine balance between operations/efficiencies and delivering quality, the latter should never be compromised, if it is then it goes against the values of the sector. Private companies are profit led and industries such as fashion and food is the evidence of what would happen to healthcare if it follows this path. There needs to be reasonable taxation to cover the cost of modernisation but the right people in the system to make this a success.

[@holdenmcgroin3995]

Thankful for a pod with a bunch less piss talk (as opposed to Joe)

[@tomsavage8217]

Love podcasts, hate nonces

[@20storiesunder]

They talk about piss?

[@phoenixwright1296]

I think they compliment each other. Joe has an anti-nonce, pro-piss agenda whilst Pod maintains nonce neutrality and is openly piss-exclusionary. Swings and roundabouts

[@DeinosDinos]

@@20storiesunder and shitting and kissing. In-jokes aside it's quite a lad-ish podcast, and they veer off into wild tangents a LOT. Fun to listen to though.

[@KapnScumdreg]

I've noticed its marginally better when theres just two of them (less tangents and ganging up on Ed), quite entertaining, but only actually informative when they talk about beavers ​@@DeinosDinos

[@pastyman001]

"Do you have any change?"

[@AdamTV]

Labour says they will fund spending with growth. But how much sustained growth do they require to balance the books? 2%, 4%??? Give us a number and we can evaluate how realistic it is!

[@nathanaelsmith3553]

Growth requires investment in things like infrastructure and education, and it takes time. That means borrowing.

[@AdamTV]

@@nathanaelsmith3553 it can. Or it can be part of the normal business cycle. Also new technologies such as AI can lead to spurts in growth. That said he is claiming future growth and my question is how much is he projecting?

[@nathanaelsmith3553]

@@AdamTV I'm not sure how anyone could ever realistically predict that for such a complex system as the UK economy. If it's analogous to the weather I guess you can make short term predictions and find parameters and predict cycles like the seasons. If there is a trend underway I guess you can extrapolate forward, or maybe if there is a historical president for similar circumstances in the past I suppose you can apply that. But I don't think either of those things apply as we are in uncharted waters at the moment. But I'm no expert. A real expert would understand the mechanics, but I suspect they would have to admit to margins of uncertainty. Plus Starmer has himself said that he does not have access to all the information and so is constrained in his planning.

[@AdamTV]

@@nathanaelsmith3553 economists do this type of modeling everyday of the week. Naturally there are errors. But you can project how much growth would be required to balance the books. That’s easy. The difficult part is actually generating the required growth. Most western economies have not been able to achieve sustained growth greater than 2% since the 2008 economic collapse.

[@RealDareel]

Every year since 2008 there has been predictions of growth next year. It won’t happen.

[@markrutlidge5427]

Read the manifesto, it should have been called "change nothing". In some areas will be worse then the Tories.

[@Foritus]

Came for the podcast, stayed for the WTCs 😅

[@nickthepeasant]

'Change (In the Party of Lies)' - Tonedefs ..a joke / reference that doesn't really land I know ..much like when Keith mentions tool maker dad or the CPS. Nothing new, nothing impactful, nothing worth voting for..they'll slide in on the back of 'not being the Tories' and give us more of the same.

[@RobinHarris-nf4yv]

You obviously haven’t read their manifesto and compared to the Tories, if did you would see they are different. But you prefer the lazy arguments pushed by Corbyn cultists

[@redflag4781]

@@RobinHarris-nf4yv To cut to the basics, are they neoliberals?

[@redflag4781]

@RobinHarris-nf4yv This iteration of Labour is fundamentally neoliberal, they seek to be more competent but not much more than that. How the scrapping of VAT exemption for private schools got into the manifesto, heaven only knows.

[@RobinHarris-nf4yv]

@@redflag4781 that's a meaningless term.

[@redflag4781]

@RobinHarris-nf4yv It absolutely isn't. You not knowing what it means doesn't render it meaningless.

[@sonicwingnut]

This is the first time I'm voting for a political party in the hope they're lying.

[@Anonamoosemouse]

It's so funny how Labour use the word change so much, but they aren't doing anything massively different from the conservatives...

[@DarrenKWSmithers]

can i ask a question Cleverly? Who owns or used to own yougov?

[@kerrynewnham8946]

Zoe’s accent sounds so like Millie bobby brown

[@IshibashiPandora]

Coco you are a goddess but for once I must disagree with you! Allow me to quote from Apocalypse Now wherein Colonel Kurtz, decrying Vietnam era US military hypocrisy, laments that "We teach them to drop fire on people, but won't let them write 'fuck' on their airplanes because it's *obscene.*" Where policy is obscene, obscenity is a mirror. Swearing is also positively correlated with intelligence, creativity, and honesty! And of course, a well timed pejorative is one of the ornaments to yours, one of the finest comedic heritages in the English language. Finally, a good curse signals to one's fellows that they are in a safe and friendly place, which is how I've always felt in your excellent midst:P Much love from Canada!

[@HazyWave1974]

No. Not even a little. Don't need 44 minutes to answer that question.

[@RobinHarris-nf4yv]

You are wrong then as they are

[@HazyWave1974]

@@RobinHarris-nf4yv Stick to video games, kiddo.

[@lachd2261]

My own view from the outside (from Australia) is that there are some things in the UK Labour manifesto that clearly signal a leftwards shift since New Labour. Public ownership in railways and electricity (clean energy), plus taxing non doms, windfall taxes on oil and gas and removing tax exemptions on private education, ending zero hours contracts and overall a more friendly pro-Union set of policies are all big leftward shifts from the Blair era. 25 years ago, to include this stuff in a UK Labour manifesto would see you accused of being unelectable - but now Starmer might win a supermajority. Sometimes it can be hard to spot these big picture trends because of everything else that's happened in between - namely the years of chaos over Brexit, and the even more left wing Jeremy Corbyn.

[@ikepren3696]

I’m here for my British crush. Koko Kahn

[@insoserious]

Just use Ingerland’s WTF slogan from a previous World Cup: WRITE THE FUTURE.

[@teddybearington3]

❤❤❤

[@drasticplasticaustin]

Anybody trusting any of them must have taken leave of their senses! British Politics.. where dishonesty is legitimised and granted a platform.

[@SarahTheNearlyInSP]

41:44 😂😂😂😂😂😂 crying!!!

[@micwarmington1]

why nothing on the range of independents and galloway's woekers party ?

[@albertbrammer9263]

WTF change to WWW. WHY? WHY? WHY?

[@travelwell6049]

Zoe Grunewald looks and sounds like Millie Bobbie Brown.

[@lloroshastar6347]

After hearing the utterly awful US track 'Black MAGA' I definitely do not want to see anymore political campaign lyrics full stop let alone rap.

[@thomasgrubert7819]

Wealth taxes make sinking wealth into assets less attractive, making other forms of investment more attractive.

[@dlcs1406]

British government totally baffles me

[@danmatthews8650]

Shut the front door moments

[@mchparity]

Change Kumar, Coco Khan do attitude. This pod Khan Change UK.

[@mndrew1]

Loads and loads on domestic policy; a dearth of policy coverage outside the isles. Is not party taking any stance on Gaza at all? Shocking. :)

[@therandomoguy3809]

Zoe is absolutely huffing copium that a party will get more progressive in power. Its austerity 2.0 this time in red.

[@kittybluett8887]

Nope wtf fits

[@renaigh]

vote 4 change, in opposite world.

[@vanessah5217]

Call the wtf moments Holy (f*cking) shit moments. Just to wind up Coco some more. Alternatively (and way more boringly) facepalm or Fremdscham moments

[@jamiefarrell4425]

What The Farage?!

[@RealDareel]

Labour are the most right wing of the major parties, including reform

[@markwelch3564]

I wouldn't go that far! Labour are definitely right of the LibDems nowadays though

[@RealDareel]

@@markwelch3564 Labour are talking about privatising the nhs and tories aren’t. Reform want to raise the the personal allowance and scrap the 2 child cap.

[@markwelch3564]

@@RealDareel but the Tories don't talk about privatisation in the same way they don't talk about breathing - it's just a given

[@RealDareel]

@@markwelch3564 Yeah hopefully Labour are only just as bad but with the apparent bribes they’ve taken from the healthcare industry I fear the worst.

[@VinceLammas]

We know the Conservative Party's plan is for further austerity measures that would allow them to cut taxes. They fundamentally dont understand or care about the priorities expressed by the electorate. Labour have made a number of explicit but cautious and funded plans for change and said their economic plans for green energy, a more proactive industrial strategy and political stability are expected to help stimulate investment and growth. This growth would then allow them to make further improvements in the life-chances of all citizens. Contrary to what some are saying (as explictly rejected by front-bench politicians), Labour IS NOT "proposing" drastic austerity ... but I accept they are being less than than transparent about what they might do to raise tax revenues without raising taxes on working people. I understand that many people want to see ambitous and radical change are frustrated with a perception of low ambitions. However, we need to understand the need to operate in a world of political perceptions and persuasion, the need to plan for and phase change in a manner that makes it possible to succeed and become embedded for our future. I actually think both the Labour and Liberal Democrat manifestos are positive and hopeful documents that descibe plans to improve the lives of people in the UK. I can vote for either Party in a manner that aims to remove the worst government this country has ever experienced.

[@archvaldor]

"Labour have made a number of explicit but cautious and funded plans for change and said their economic plans for green energy, a more proactive inndustrial strategy and political stability are expected to help stimulate investment and growth. This growth would then allow them to make further improvements in the life-chances of all citizens." You are a tory apologizing for tory policies.

[@barryledgister4496]

What`s so good about being `progressive`? Let things change naturally for the better, rather than forcing `progressive` ideas for the sake of it.

[@darrellhenry9152]

I’m all for wealth taxes when someone explains to me why all the other countries that have tried it have repealed it?

[@SmileyHardstyle]

There are currently wealth taxes in switzerland, Norway, France etc

[@Wulfuswulferson]

Lobbying?

[@jaybee4288]

Because the rich people threaten them in various ways, pulling funding, bad media coverage, in some countries outright threats of violence etc. If Sunak tried to tax the owner of Amazon what do you really think happens? Billionaires run the countries not politicians.

[@lloroshastar6347]

Rich people lobby politicians to repeal it, that's why. It's not because the economy collapses or anything like that. It's the same reason why rich people get away with committing the most heinous crimes, because in a Capitalist system, rich people call the shots, they pay off anyone who doesn't do what they want.

[@Illiteratechimp]

What impressed me about the labour manifesto is that they realistically look at where they can afford to deregulate and make things more efficient to grow the economy So that they can fund their priorities It's not just tax increases Im a UK citizen living in the US. Was planning to move back before BREXIT happened...this snap election is making me optimistic

[@holdenmcgroin3995]

First

[@tomekholland2581]

WTC: What The Coco?