Is Brexit Britain really great? | Armando Iannucci | New Statesman

Following Brexit and the chaos under successive Conservative governments, is British exceptionalism a thing of the past? The creator of The Thick of It, Armando Iannucci, and Anoosh Chakelian answer this question in the first episode of the new season of Westminster Reimagined.
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"We're not living in the fantasy world that Brexiteers imagined" - Armando Iannucci
Armando and Anoosh are joined by Alex von Tunzelmann, historian, screenwriter and author, and Ivan Rogers, former permanent representative of the UK to the European Union. Both have spent their careers reflecting on Britain's place in the world, and Armando and Anoosh want to know: is Britain really great, anymore?
Watch more: Can Britain make Brexit work?
• Can Britain make Brexi...
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The writer, satirist and broadcaster Armando Iannucci returns to the New Statesman Podcast to co-host our fourth series of Westminster Reimagined. Across this season he is joined by co-host Anoosh Chakelian, Britain editor at the New Statesman, to explores parts of British public life he believes to be broken, and is joined by guests from inside and outside Westminster to work out how to fix them.
Watch the previous seasons of Westminster Reimagined here: • Post-truth politics ha...
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The New Statesman brings you unrivalled analysis of of the latest UK and international politics. On our KZbin channel you’ll find insight on the top news and global current affairs stories, as well as insightful interviews with politicians, advisers and leading political thinkers, to help you understand the political and economic forces shaping the world.
With regular contributions from our writers including Political Editor Andrew Marr and Anoosh Chakelian - host of the New Statesman podcast - we’ll help you understand the world of politics and global affairs from Westminster to Washington and beyond.
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[@NewStatesman]

Watch more from Armando Iannucci in this Westminster Reimagined playlist: kzbin.info/aero/PLSfumUEfFlcL4R-AYIbczsi2zxVsiPQz0

[@darren253]

Britain is Union dominated by England .Let's fact it the other three nations are no longer relevant We have voted but their views are ignored. Because we in England have bigger population . We live in a Society were the Rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Record homeless and poor transport. We don't build anything like we did but import from China. Look at your TV/Fridge/Cooker etc all made in China etc.

[@conorwhitworth5182]

Remember David Davis turning up for negotiations, sat at the desk with nothing and the EU representatives with folders, paperwork etc. An image that sums it up very neatly.

[@mechanicaldavid4827]

They felt fully equipped with Boris' Bluster, I think.

[@peterclareburt4594]

You have highlighted an important difference and change that has happened since that moment, with David Davis. The EU has/has a fully formed experienced trade competency. People experienced in trade negotiations. The UK hadn't had a trade competency for 40+ years. No one of experience in this sort of negotiating. David Davis, was an MP with some small experience as a Minister but not trade or even international relations. What subsequently has happened between then and now is the UK seconded some people experienced in trade from NZ and Aus, who helped them build a trade negotiations and operations team ( note trade discussions do not stop at the end of negotiations, they move into an operations mode which includes discussions and the helping of business take advantage of the deals) So now, thankful that the UK was able to flip a bunch of existing deals, the UK has it's own trade competency, staffed with somewhat experienced people, though a ways to go yet. Its only been three years since the UK took control of trade negotiations (after the UK/EU trade negotiations) But now the trade ministry operates 34 ( or 38?) trade deals covering 99 countries. So given the elapsed time and the size of the task, operating over some pretty tough global conditions, I think this has been a huge success and strategically puts the UK in a good position moving forward.

[@annemoncrieff3875]

It is english exceptionalism. I am Scottish, not british and i enjoyed being part of the world via eu. I do not like this isolation, exceptional idea that little englanders promote. The empire was nothing to be proud of.

[@MRW515]

Brexit had nothing to do with an Empire, it was to do with having politicians who are elected and accountable to the electorate, the EU does not work in that way, commissioners are appointed and Brussels laws super cede national laws. England has a better record of implementing human rights than Scotland so maybe that is why you prefer Brussels to Westminster 🤷‍♂

[@ianworley8169]

I know little about the machinations of the EU, but I have lived in Portugal, close to Spain since 2002. Everything the ambassador says about the esteem which our European partners held Britain WAS absolutely true. My many Spanish and Portuguese friends really admired Britain and the British people. They saw us as civilised, fair minded and politically sophisticated. During and since Brexit, they think Britain has gone absolutely bonkers. As someone who spent most of my life in the UK, I wholeheartedly agree. Brexit is destroying Britain and there's no end of the madness in sight. I've never been happier to live in mainland Europe.

[@pritapp788]

It might be one of the best things to have happened from Brexit actually: crashing the inferiority complex citizens of other nations experienced about the so-called British virtues like pragmatism and ability for civilised debate. No more looking down upon others now. In just 7 years Conservative politicians have decisively re-established the truth, which is that British politicians are not more virtuous than peers around the world.

[@richardsalisbury496]

Yes we are glad your there to

[@ab-ym3bf]

Strange, the Portuguese I live amongst have a different story to tell, that is closely aligned to the usual horrors of British tourism, the borish nature, the arrogance, name all the clichés that you can find but are true. Portuguese are way to polite to tell it to your face. I've herd the story sojoftennfrom brits, "they all live us, our history, our culture" and most of the time thdt is just something the English have to tell them self, because no outsider (in general) shares that feeling.

[@wendysimpson6395]

Totally agree.

[@chrisbrown1057]

Me too

[@jonmce1]

As a Canadians we watched Brexit and more exactly the Brexiteers and were amazed how colosally ignorant they were of the real world. Canada throughout its existance was always the smaller partner, one of the reasons we don't want to get too close to the US, not because the US is terrible but because in any partnership they are by far bigger. Britain in the EU was one of the movers and shakers a partner with near equals in running one of the biggest economic blocks in the world. It was obvious outside the EU, Britain is not all that much bigger than Canada,less than 60%bigger economy, in a world dominated by huge blocks who set the rules, establish the codes and run the worlds economy, China, US and EU. Coming from the mouths of Brexiteers was an incredible naivete about trade relations as a smaller power. Later leaks from Canadian trade negotiators described their ameteurish failure to prepare. The Canadian negotiators are very experienced negotiating the EU, NAFT2 and TPP agreements. Little wonder with such leadership trade negotiations have gone nowhere. What Britain has done is join the group of advanced middle economies outside major blocks, countries like Canada, Australia, Japan South Korea. The results were entirely predictable and I and many did predict what would happen with British trade. I say this as someone who has always had a soft spot for Britain, almost all of my ancestry is from there, my grandfather fought at the battle of Omdurman, but reality is the UK is simply no longer one of the big dogs and has been sliding into middle power status for decades if it were not in the EU.

[@philwilliams953]

I suppose we'll have to wise up and learn the hard way how international trade negotiations work, when you're outside a trading bloc. We've got a different set of strengths and weaknesses in comparison to Canada, S Korea and Japan, so it's hard to predict how we'll manage. Unfortunately, we've got a naive bunch of ideologues in charge at the moment, who haven't yet woken up to the reality of the situation.

[@mikedudley4062]

You've neglected to build in the fact that the EU is in terminal decline as a trading block and a world power, while the coming financial crisis of unaffordable debts will only bring the EU down, it now has only a short self life and it's imminent political collapse is coming, EU 2 as a trading block Will come out of it, and then we can rebuild Europe again, till then you can sit back and watch it decline

[@philwilliams953]

​@@mikedudley4062 Terminal decline? That's rather hyperbolic. EU's prospects are flat, depending upon who's making the predictions. It's problems are very similar to UK; poor productivity and declining working age population. ie, not built in systemic problems. UK has failed to recognise its weaknesses. Instead, it seems to blindly assume that it can sort out its problems by leaving. Time will tell. I'm not optimistic.

[@mikedudley4062]

@@philwilliams953 the EU is a socialist bureaucracy, and that alone tells you the journey is over as debts spill into every facet of Life.... We too after 25 yrs of liberal left socialist policies have ended in the same mistake. Brexit was a life belt to save us from decline and all that's happened so far is trivial, but those changes are coming as the right sweep to power across Europe to cut debts and reinvigorate economies... After working and living in 22 countries I can tell you we've been sat on our far lazy asses for too long, the world looks up to us, needs us, and has been waiting for us to return.... There are opportunities everywhere

[@philwilliams953]

​@@mikedudley4062 Thanks for your reply Mike. There are some obvious political differences between us. The EU is often needlessly bureaucratic, but Socialist? Hardly. And I can't see how we've lurched to the left since 2000. Wealth has been flowing from governments and wage earners into private pockets for many years, especially the last few. The wealth gap has been growing accordingly. This is true in most western economies, including the EU. Conservatives have been in charge in the UK for 14 years. Brexit is no lifebelt for any of this. Actually Mark, I think a bit of wealth distribution is in order, so I can't see how any further lurches to the right will allow this to happen.

[@kevinwillis6707]

Armando is spot on when he says uk politicians dont do detail, its blindingly obvious when they try to do anything that involves more than producing a soundbite they fall flat on their face, the trouble is they can never admit it and so cast about for scapegoats. other european countries put them to shame in infrastructure, education, healthcare supply, etc.

[@garyb455]

The question should be is the EU great ? it has declined over 50% economically compared to the USA in 25 years. That's a record they try very hard to keep quiet. There is a reason why the right is winning elections all across Europe, this great Left Wing experiment has been a dismal failure.

[@geoffreyplow3811]

The university education for most of the core politicians was based on understanding and regurgitating relatively short gobbets of information in terminal exams. I doubt that Johnson wrote more than a thousand consecutive words from the age of 18 onwards - even as a journalist. Breadth of understanding is simply not prized; the aperçu is everything.

[@aleph8888]

How many Oxbridge “educated journalists” have repeatedly said that the UK should stay in or rejoin the customs union and single market? Which is impossible. The two are mutually exclusive. They haven’t learnt the difference between an FTA (EEA), and a customs union? Seven years later! All while calling people who disagree with them stupid gammon. What conceit, what an embarrassment. What a joke.

[@Kamfrenchie]

i dont know, european countries vary wildly in this regard.

[@magnetospin]

UK politicians are learning from the US politicians.

[@plunder1956]

While Britain was in the EU for 45+ years so many of the complex details over trade, Export & Import were really dealt with tn Brussels, by a team of people with MUCH MORE international power & experience. In taking on that extra complex role full of details & international relationships, Britain had no experienced team & very little power, to rebuild all these vital relationships. At the very heart of British government, all the ministers responsible for rebuilding our trading relationships & basic trading agreements had almost zero experience at that level. Plus some very deluded ideas about the process involved. BREXIT has failed in part because the people running it were living in a dream world where Britain still had the status of a 19th century empire. Not a burnt out nation on the edge of Europe, with a very weak industrial base & few vital resources. Even our agricultural sector NEEDED EU membership & EU workers. This was utterly ignored. Our transport system was poorly run & badly damaged by the very party in government decades ago. Everywhere you look, Britain was in no condition to take on these challenges. People who DID understand some of this were ignored & told they were spreading lies. Meanwhile BREXIT was run by bold political idiots like Boris & Frost. No wonder we now NEED to rejoin the EU just to survive.

[@garrysimpson1395]

Here Here.

[@mrcockney-nutjob3832]

Good old cheap agricultural EU labor as long as it's not you who has to work on the cheap, right?

[@JohnnyinMN]

We won’t see unification for a generation. EU countries (and the world) still are getting over the shock of how a nation didn’t understand reality.

[@garrysimpson1395]

i Could not have put it better myself.

[@amantedellopera1681]

​@@JohnnyinMNi dont believe the eu want you back why would they,tories are arrogant,imperialistic,and totally un trustworthy,none of the present govts polocies would allow them back in,ie.anti strike laws,anti democratic crack downs,trying to get rid of human rights laws i could go on but all i see is a nasty govt running out of ideas,out of steam and hell bent on causing as much havov as they can so when labour take over they can sit on bacck benches pointing fingers.personally i would not let britain anywhere near the eu again

[@chrisschepper9312]

Only country in the history of the world to vote a self embargo.

[@darren253]

Our government bangs on about trade deals. But their trade deals which favour other countries than us. Australia mugged us. America we are irrelevant .

[@annemoncrieff3875]

Well little engkand and wales did.. Scotland, NIreland and Gibraltar did not.

[@dnoco]

you'll see what happens within the next 5 years across europe...Dont think the irish public are very happy right now. The netherlands, not happy, france not happy, poland not happy, spain & italy not happy.@@annemoncrieff3875

[@ashcross]

This would be the embargo that provides for trade and indeed has witnessed an increase of trade since 2016?

[@lizziebkennedy7505]

@@annemoncrieff3875this!!!!

[@CrownRider]

Looking at Brittons from the Netherlands, the traditional view was that our island neighbors were polite, patient and quiet people with a great sense of humor. Them and many others liberated us from the Nazis and their morals and values were enlightened. We still love the British music and other cultural expressions. However, when the tabloids started to influence politics heavily, it got out of hands. The behavior of British politicians in the EU parliament changed to being a nuisance and the exceptionalism was shocking. Personally I'm happy they are out of the EU. They are in fact rule takers now. Let's keep it this way.

[@michaelsteane9926]

You're all rule takers.

[@spartannl8227]

We got Hungary under Orbàn as a replacement ‘cherry picking’ member state… 😅 As the UK was most of the time it was a member, mainly known as the ‘opt out’ state, hardly considered to be cooperative, constructive, on the contrary it upheld a persistent attitude of “divide and conquer”… As if in fact, they never really wanted to join the European project. Now, the EU is i.m.h.o. far from perfect, has a rather meager democratic stature (ordinary European citizens are far too distant, decision making proceses are all but transparent, its legitimacy has always been and is even increasingly dwindling… and I could go on for a bit longer… But it still is better (!) than all individual member states acting by themselves on the European and especially also, the world stage. It has helped to prevent any new destructive war amongst its member states…and it has helped to absorb and counter where needed, the impact globalization has had on our continent. As a Dutch citizen myself I was and will remain highly skeptical of ‘Brussels’, but am recognizing its benefits too.

[@zuzannanowicka6348]

Nah, please, it’s pure disgrace and robbery too (as there are still programs in the UK that are funded by the EU)

[@jonathansimmons5353]

And therein is a issue. The uk should have quit at dunkirk, and europe sort its mess out, not us for them and bankroll it.

[@zuzannanowicka6348]

@@spartannl8227 it is also about the global market (better competitor than small, separate states), peacekeeping of democracy (eg. look at Poland - there’s still a lot of issues tho) and human rights standards (less and less so tho - still, much better than the UK, human rights in the UK are becoming a history, as I have experienced it myself many times, same as in my homecountry), it’s also about consumers - without the EU, UK is an absolute nothing as proven post-BREXIT

[@jameswhitfield1375]

What does Britain do very well? We are world champions at wallowing over nostalgia: real and imagined.

[@evolassunglasses4673]

We look back because we were still in control of our destiny. Globalisation has destroyed the nation state democracy decades ago unfortunately.

[@eightiesmusic1984]

Magical thinking. Incompetence.

[@ausbrum]

and at corruption, tattooing and of course whingeing

[@Calum_S]

We probably do it no better or worse than any other country does either.

[@annepoitrineau5650]

The French coming second.

[@patrickevans8482]

As a Brit who has lived in Ireland for 40 years I, and many people i know, am struck by the ridiculous bubble of mythology and self-delusion that many of the English live in.

[@lizziebkennedy7505]

I’m an Australian married to a Londoner. It has preoccupied me for decades. If we’d stayed in England, we’d have split. It’s only in the warmth and sunshine that it’s possible to work through it. And he’s a passionate remainer.

[@eightiesmusic1984]

Nailed it. I think the same. Magical thinking on so many issues. No wonder the country is in such serious trouble compared to elsewhere.

[@grahamelliott6041]

Are you british or english ?

[@eightiesmusic1984]

@@grahamelliott6041 Both.

[@tompiper9276]

​@@eightiesmusic1984Magical?? More like outright delusional. The Brexiteers fantasy world is, somehow, even worse than anticipated.

[@pippalefebvre5575]

As a person of a certain age, living in the US with a French mother and German husband, and.having lived in Belgium and Germany, this panel is quite deluded about the amount of respect and admiration that other countries have for Britain. Even back in 1995, many Belgians saw Britain as a decayed empire who was unable to make peace with its lowered position in the world. Do people in the UK really lthink that they’re the only stable democracy with checks and balances, strong judiciary, and participants who have a healthy skepticism? Most In US government have long viewed the UK as a little brother who may have his uses from time to time, but needn’t be taken seriously. British delusions apparently know no bounds.

[@nicks4934]

Bravo yes 😊

[@marksimons8861]

It's Mrs Thatcher who sold that to the British people. I was amazed to see them say that Trump might concede a closer relationship with the UK if he were to win. Do they not know the meaning of "America First". IAs I see it, Trump's appeal to the working class of the USA is to stop immigration and to end discussion of any trade deals that will destroy your jobs.

[@jonathanfreyone526]

Ím from Gibraltar and we are still dealing with the EU negotiations for a treaty 7 years on.

[@samhartford8677]

Yes, and apparently it is the EU's job to change itself to accommodate your feelings.

[@jonathanfreyone526]

@@samhartford8677 it is not how it works. The EU is going to take Spain’s Interests to the negotiating table now that the UK are no longer part of the club. The whole EU negotiation has been an absolute nightmare and more complex situation than the Northern Ireland Windsor framework.

[@samhartford8677]

@@jonathanfreyone526 Sorry, I forgot to add the sarcasm warning. Yes, you are completely correct. It's the same situation as with NI: The EU will stand behind Spain and just like the Unionists who keep complaining about the deal, the EU is not going to change its Treaties to accommodation the needs of a third country that the said third-country caused itself with its sovereign decisions.

[@wendyfield7708]

What people call patriotism, the love of one’s country, but without looking down on other countries, is often in fact nationalism, flag waving, “we are best”, dislike of anything foreign etc.

[@garyb455]

The question should be is the EU great ? it has declined over 50% economically compared to the USA in 25 years. That's a record they try very hard to keep quiet. There is a reason why the right is winning elections all across Europe, this great Left Wing experiment has been a dismal failure.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

No, that's not nationalism... the shallow flag waving you're describing is "patriotarde" (as the French put it). It's a different thing from nationalism, it's a caricature of nationalism, devoid of the values of nationalism.

[@buzzukfiftythree]

The notion that Brexiters are patriotic is absolute nonsense. Patriots care about their country’s success. Brexiters are traitors IMHO.

[@philipanthony9596]

@@octavianpopescu4776 i would beg to differ… patriotism is simply love of one’s country. Love of its quirky traditions and institutions and love of it’s ‘way of doing things’. It looks inward and finds comfort in the various forms of life found in our national home. As such it is a disposition, a way of thinking, not an ideology. You can be on the left or the right and agree with that sentiment. Nationalism on the other hand is an ideology - one of the many bastard children of the French Revolution. Unlike patriotism It looks outward at other nations, their culture and their traditions and finds them wanting and/or inferior. English (or British) patriotism on the other hand celebrates, among other things, parliamentary government, the rule of law and our Common Law inheritance of inherited rights as precious possessions and has nothing whatsoever to do with the French imposter.

[@lizziebkennedy7505]

@@philipanthony9596whose traditions? Britain is multicultural and multi faith. Bet you hate that. But if everyone born OS left, you’d topple right over.

[@philgalpin9284]

Deep chuckle from here in France.

[@dnoco]

wont be chuckling when Le pen wins the next election, hehe

[@philgalpin9284]

@@dnoco definitely not! But neither will 90% of the populace. We have an NF local government and they are razing the homes of the Roma already. Sound familiar?

[@dnoco]

Im sorry i'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying, can you explain it again in a different way? @philgalphin9284

[@philgalpin9284]

@@dnoco not chuckling if Le Pen gets to be president. But she will have to do a coup to achieve that. Perpignan has Le Pens old boyfriend as its leader. St Georges, an decrepit area in the centre of town is being 'redeveloped' and its residents (mainly Spanish Roma) are being made homeless! OK?

[@jonathansimmons5353]

Deep chuckle from the uk looking at france google = *calendrier du greve* and the app *"actu17"* 😮

[@zion9860]

We shouldn't be surprised how long the UK was able to get trade deals done. Even the US doesn't want to deal with the UK meager goods and services. After all the UK is a teeny tiny little country. When the UK was in the EU, it was a powerhouse. Those days are over.

[@yingyang1008]

I think it's the fifth largest economy in the world

[@batcollins3714]

​@@yingyang1008you're talking about Londongrad, the biggest money laundering capital of the world.

[@shaun7163]

Thatcher “reversed the decline” by selling off the silverware. A short term bit of cash for selling off hard built wealth (housing stock, national resources, public companies). Anyway, I’m off to get rich by selling off all my clothing & furniture, wish me luck!

[@ziploc2000]

This. I was a young teen when Thatcher came to power and started selling off the family jewels. My mother loved it as as she saw an opportunity to buy shares. I did not have the money to buy shares. I have never voted Conservative. The UK does not own ANY of the renewable energy generation systems supplying the UK. Customers are at the mercy of other countries regarding energy prices. This is the Conservative plan. Penny and dime the masses, and pocket the profits.

[@TheArtSouls]

As Genesis sang in 1972 " selling England by the pound " All gone now ! The Toerags know the will lose but will hold the general election as late as possible so they can scrape the last scraps from the exhausted empire's crust and pass laws and make appointments to protect their wealth and future

[@ckwoods]

There are times when I feel these superb podcasts are the only “voice of reason” currently operating within our domestic media. Please keep up the good work!

[@eightiesmusic1984]

Satire. Very good.

[@SunofYork]

I thirst for the voice of reason so this is encouraging. I am a lost Englishman in Wisconsin and I read UK channels like "History debunked" where self proclaimed 'Hitlerits' advocate RNLI lifeboat crews being hung for treason for saving migrants from drowning. Oh, and MUCH worse from the vigilante army they want to recruit. A few days of listening to that stuff is depressing, especially when I get a warning from YT for firmly objecting to it....

[@octavianpopescu4776]

I wouldn't call it a voice of reason... it's just a point of view, among many others. For example, I think the guest, the one not in studio is dead wrong when answering what people admired about the UK. He talks of the mild scepticism and pragmatism... that was exactly what people hated about the UK, not what they loved. Because it all came across as condescending, arrogant and stand-offish. It was the UK saying: we don't even want to be here and we're going to stop everyone from doing what they like. The UK was the party pooper. It's why I think everyone is better off with Brexit, both the EU and the UK. The UK gets to do whatever it wants and we, in the EU, get to do what we want. Win-win.

[@buzzukfiftythree]

@@octavianpopescu4776I would contend that neither the UK nor the EU are better off after Brexit. Both parties have had to deal with the negative fallout which has been significant for the EU - almost as much as the UK. The notion that the UK gets to do whatever it wants is far too simplistic and, perhaps, a little naive. Post-Brexit the UK is a rule-taker, rather than rule-maker. We must accept EU trade and product quality rules, yet now have absolutely no influence over them. It’s reasonable to say that this also applies trade with non-EU countries, but 40% plus of our imports and exports are still with the EU.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

@@buzzukfiftythree They don't really have to follow EU rules. They are free NOT to follow EU rules and NOT to trade with the EU. EU rules only apply to the Single Market. No one is forcing them to trade with the EU. They have a choice. And they wanted out, they got out, job done. To understand why you'll have to ask the 17 million and their leaders... all I saw were people getting exactly what they wanted, dismissing warnings or concerns as "Project Fear" while telling everyone they knew what they voted for. All I can do is shrug from the sidelines and say: "Ok! You do you, little buddy." If that's what made them happy, who am I to judge?

[@BarryWaterlow]

*Britain is exceptional: exceptionally mad.*

[@petermewton1008]

1 month from Jan 1 2024 I greatly enjoyed your discussion. Contributions of presenters and guests. As I expected the new statesman to have a leftish lean I thought the contributors spoke progressive , level-headed sense. Just one gripe- Armando Iannucci mentioned the role of the monarchy in British patriotism and although obviously incredulous himself, he omitted to say that the pomp and sycophantic adulation of a very rich, landed family, by the propogandised masses, is simply a tool legitimise disgusting wealth and is therefore a brake on efforts to reduce inequality.

[@janwallace5005]

Never underestimate the power of English exceptionalism particularly when taught at Eton and other public schools.

[@jasonkingshott2971]

Er...the 2016 vote was a UK referendum, someone said 'ignorance is bliss' in your case it sounds dangerous.

[@fatherofthenoo]

@@jasonkingshott2971 Eton boys know how to push the buttons of the unwashed masses, for their own benefit. Brexit being the proof.

[@garyb455]

The question should be is the EU great ? it has declined over 50% economically compared to the USA in 25 years. That's a record they try very hard to keep quiet. There is a reason why the right is winning elections all across Europe, this great Left Wing experiment has been a dismal failure.

[@clarecrawford9677]

@@jasonkingshott2971 In that UK referendum Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain. Neither has English-style ‘public’ schools. They do have private schools, there to teach the creme de la creme, or, in Samuel Beckett’s words, ‘the rich and thick’.

[@jasonkingshott2971]

@@clarecrawford9677 What don't you understand that the 2016 vote was a UK referendum, the clue is 'UK' The terms and conditions of the referendum were agreed at the pro EU Westminster including all representatives from four corners of the UK and overseen by the UK electoral Commission. Perhaps talking to your representative might be a good idea then hopefully you can remove that massive Douglas Fir tree trunk you carry around on your shoulders. Who voted for you to speak on behalf of the 35% - 40% Scots that voted leave in 2016 to speak on their behalf?

[@rogerhigman7568]

What seemed missing from this entire discussion was a focus on what's actually happening on the ground in the UK, especially outside London. From what I see, that's a story of ageing infrastructure, inaccessible public services, rapidly shrinking public investment and slow moving, if not stagnating, local economies. Until that changes, it's hard to see the narrative about 'decline' changing let alone the bitter rhetoric about people from other countries.

[@jmolofsson]

What I missed is the notion of what *_EU-countries_* possibly could gain from closer cooperation with the British, still seeing themselves as God's gift to humanity - a view that isn't necessarily shared in nations that Churchill gifted to Stalin at Yalta, nor by Spaniards still remembering whom London supported during their civil war.

[@jameshill4911]

It’s as though banging on about the Tudors for decades has turned us into latter day versions of the Tudors: myopic, paranoid, suspicious of foreigners and increasingly insular. An island nation, after all.

[@clarecrawford9677]

The Tudors did not rule in Scotland.

[@susannaselmin4496]

..and don"t forget Gout, the Sweat and throwing your nightsoil out of your windows.."gardez-l'eau"

[@TheLucanicLord]

@@susannaselmin4496 They threw _piss_ out of the windows. A man used to come and collect the shite for fertiliser.

[@michaeldomican]

Excellent discussion and let’s hear more from these two guests. Insightful views from both.

[@Irene-im8xi]

The shock and confusion on Johnson's face when he won the referendum - he obviously thought people wouldn't be crazy enough to vote to leave!

[@tomleahy8603]

You must be careful what you ask for because sometimes you get it, Brexit being a perfect example. If you remember Boris had this wonderful brainwave that he would create a union of the non-EU European countries---that idea lasted all of a couple of months. Clearly there was no plan from beginning to end of the Brexit project, exemplified by the lack of papers in front of D. Davis at his first meeting with the EU negotiators.

[@garyb455]

The question should be is the EU great ? it has declined over 50% economically compared to the USA in 25 years. That's a record they try very hard to keep quiet. There is a reason why the right is winning elections all across Europe, this great Left Wing experiment has been a dismal failure.

[@cybertrade7908]

You can't blame the noble Brexiteers for lack of a plan. It was the Remainer-in-chief Cameron, who suddenly 'sprang' a referendum on the country. The way he did it, left only time to get organised and fight the referendum campaign itself. There was no possibility of creating a Brexit plan in the time available. The Brexiteers resigned themselves for having to put a plan together in retrospect, under whatever government prevailed at the time. That's why, since June 23rd 2016, the UK has been in political turmoil. You can thank remoaner Dave for that decision and everything that flowed from it. And to think he is now the Foreign Minister ! Maddness! Still Brexit turned out to be nothing like what remoner Cameron said... the economy didn't collapse, we did not suddenly become unemployed and terrorist attacks did not break out everywhere. Dave's 'Project Fear' was simply a hoax to frighten the sheep. Thank god for upright people like me, who had the condifence to stand up for ourselves and demand our country back 😁😆😁😇🏆🏅

[@whtalt92]

You always had say in your country, and never lost it. The very fact you lot forced this decision is proof. Now go and fix the sewers.

[@clareshaughnessy2745]

@@cybertrade7908wait, are you saying that the pro Brexit camp with all their promises, all their hyperbole about how much better we’d be if we left the EU had a) not formulated any kind of plan or gone into any kind of detail as to how it was going to work before calling for it to happen?? I mean, Cameron didn’t pull the idea out of his arse, he was responding to demands from his own party. And b) didn’t say anything along the lines of we’re not ready, it’s too soon for a referendum we need to look into details?? They just jumped in with both feet on the basis of…a gut feeling??

[@michaelbrian219]

Cameron is a traitor to the British people and the country.

[@diveinnjim]

the vote gave the UK the choice of being either Great Britain or little England.? it's a shame we ended up with the latter.

[@nikoforu]

Only in the UK would you have a government run two referendums they didn't intend to "win". Got lucky the first time, but not the second time though. And the guy responsible for this mess is back in government. It boggles the mind.

[@hurri7720]

Yes, the Eton kid who did not understand the first rule of betting - never bet for more than you can afford to lose.

[@annepoitrineau5650]

The Eton kid who did not understand the concept of losing. @@hurri7720

[@dnoco]

fundamentals, its not what the government wants, its what the people want, they work for us

[@mickwall8]

@@dnoco Dream on, sweetie.......

[@dnoco]

merry Christmas mick, todays not the day for youtube shenanigans....Darling @@mickwall8

[@genghisthegreat2034]

The British character is disruptive in any organisation where their status is one of mere equality. That's because it feels like oppression to have to make your case for anything more than that.

[@BalefulBunyip]

The people arrested for holding up signs said something very definite to me. Particularly the man detained for holding up a blank piece of paper because of what he might write on it .

[@jonathanfreyone526]

It´s amazing how Brexit is still a hot topic since the vote occurred, and it speaks volumes.

[@CarlJones14]

You mean a rigged vote? 44 million voters, and only 17.3 million voted to leave. Cameron called referendum because EU wouldn't give the City Crime Cartels a regulation opt out. Pure fraud.

[@evolassunglasses4673]

No one on Left or Right has any ideas or energy. The Managerial class across the West has given up.

[@tonyh1515]

Only by remainers !!

[@annepoitrineau5650]

BS @@tonyh1515

[@louis-philippearnhem6959]

The EU don’t mention Brexit anymore. We moved on.

[@roop128]

Regardless of this video, Armando is an absolutely stand-up guy. My local cinema managed to get him to do a Introduction and post-movie Q&A for a Death of Stalin showing. He was absolutely incredible on stage with such amazing stories interwoven with exceptional wit and humour. I approached him after the movie to sign my Thick of It box-set to which he happily did so without question.

[@Antonnick]

it is always very enlightening when sir Ivan rogers relates his experiences and Alex von Tünzelmann was interesting to listen to as well.

[@martinlee465]

Great Britain is an island off the coast of the global village, inhabited by a people paralysed by their belief in their perceived greatness and eccentricity.

[@MRW515]

Strawman

[@eveb.6568]

true

[@derekarnold3665]

I don't believe the young generation consider British exceptionalism has any relevance today.

[@garrysimpson1395]

They said that the E.U. Referendum was like a sporting event but in a sporting event the losing side will always have another chance of winning!

[@ianinglis5354]

Really enjoyed this discussion. A real breath of fresh air. Thank you.

[@user-kn8un4ru8p]

I lived in Italy when Brexit was being heavily discussed in the UK. I could not understand why the UK would want to leave. When I was speaking to people they were using the "we need to be in charge of our own destiny" line. How can the UK be in charge of its own destiny? It doesnt grow enough farm produce, it does not manufactuer anything and nearly everything is imported. The huge costs being levied now on imports is driving the cost of basics up in the UK. To try and export something, also costs a fortune. I am back now and can say 100% that Brexit has not worked. David Cameron has returned to the Conservative Party. In the New Year, they will launch the "we need to be back in Europe" campaign, which is why they have got him back. The old adage of be careful what you wish for comes to mind........

[@dnoco]

Just some insight to why the British public voted to leave the EU, its not because the British population dislike europeans, we love europeans, however we voted to leave for the following, immigration, now before you say oh how can you say the British don't like europeans if they are complaining about immigration. We have a real big problem with illegal and legal immigration right now, which is currently at bursting point in terms of public sentiment, and the British public want something done about this. Just to put this into perspective, since 2010 we have taken 10 Million migrants, and its quickly changing the landscape of as well as the tension within certain parts of the UK. So the easiest way to solve this issue, is to leave the place where the illegal immigrants are coming from, the EU....simply because when the UK is apart of the EU, we are essentially being told what to do, I.E the freedom of movement. This is a big big issue, largely because the UK population do not like being told what to do.... so when they feel they have to take these orders from the unelected EU politicians, its a recipe for disaster. Going forward I really do not see any appetite for the UK wanting to join back. In fact if you look across the European landscape right now you will see a growing call for far right wing governments, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of these countries begin to have their own referendums, and if not then a radical overhaul of EU legislation surrounding immigration. An example of this would be Michael Barnier (Brexit negotiator for the EU) recent comments on immigration , and the Netherlands appointing Geert Wilders. This isn't a Europe phenomenon either, you only have to look to Argentina who recently appointed right wing Javier Milei's. If the EU would listen to the British publics worries, and would have allowed for example a points based system for all outside of the EU, and EU citizens themselves allowed to come and work regardless of skill level on a 2 year working visa similar to what the UK has with Australia & Canada, compared to allowing everyone from the EU here indefinably, then the UK would still be in the EU. So having said all this, this is and continues to be the predominant reason for the UK populations decision to vote leave, are we racist? far from it, I love europe and europeans and still voted leave, and would vote leave again. I absolutely do not see the UK rejoining, in fact when the UK's left wing Labour party get voted in next year, if there is any whiff of rejoining the EU, I would imagine they would serve 1 term and be thrown out, being replaced by a far right wing party, probably a reshuffled conservative party headed by the infamous Mr Brexit himself, Nigel Farage. Expect this to be a trend across Europe over the next few years, or like I say, a radical shift from the EU and its legislation on immigration. The take away is, all these pompus mugs, like the idiots in this video, and the politicians of the UK & EU, are making a fundamental and fatal mistake. and thats not listening to their public, thats the ultimate downfall which lead to brexit, and its the same downfall thats going to spread across europe in the coming years. The people are fed up of not being heard.

[@user-kn8un4ru8p]

@dnoco thank you for your informative response. Question, will a new form of European Union be created? One that aligns with the current political trends across the world?

[@dnoco]

I believe so yes, and quite quickly. Just for some insight, over 80% of the British public want radical change on LEGAL immigration let alone illegal. Thats right and left voters. 80% of the population is whopping figure, so imagine trying to sell re joining the EU and the freedom of movement, not going to go down well lol. This is very quickly spreading throughout European nations as mentioned in my previous comment, and even though you'll listen to videos of "intellectuals" stating otherwise, like the ones in this video, your quickly going to find out this far from true, and they'll feel it in the polls/voting. However, one of two things are going to happen, the EU are going to radically change the freedom of movement and crack down on immigration and the the UK will rejoin the EU, to which I will vote to re joining IF we can control our own boarders. Or the EU are still going to usher in legislation to radically re shape their current freedom of movement, and the UK will still not re join due to the EU wanting to punish the UK for leaving, even though they recognise the reason why the Uk voted leave, and decided to fix the problem to why this happened, although they are only really going to change it because they're looking at whats happening int he polls in the EU and are getting squeaking bums and don't want more referendums. P.S thanks for reading it, it was a lot of writing :p but don't take my word for it, just go look at the polls for yourself, you'll find the truth, not what these plebs are saying@@user-kn8un4ru8p

[@lizziebkennedy7505]

@@dnocoEngland and Wales. Stop invoking Scotland, liar, when Scotland voted remain. And it’s the UK, not Britain. NI also voted remain. Try accuracy for a change.

[@lizziebkennedy7505]

@@user-kn8un4ru8pit’s not informative, it’s full of lies and propaganda. Also, Australian immigration detention has so many English (not British) travellers detained because they refuse to accept that they need long stay visas behind basic tourist stays. It’s our outpost, they say. England owns it, they say. Even as they’re carted off to detention. It’s pathetic. I know one who,stayed 3 months in detention because his parents wouldn’t put up the return fare, and he told the tribunal every time that he’s English, so has the right to stay in Oz as long as he wants. 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

[@tonycook7679]

Pity Tony Blair couldn't see that joining with GW Bush and John Howard in their mad and cruel middle-eastern wars was in fact a false resurrection of pride in past military prowess and the Empire.

[@richdyer2000]

funnily, I was just thinking that. Quite a pivotal moment when it all when it all started going South. Had he not done that, I think he (or Labour) would have had a much better chance of surviving the financial crisis/expenses scandal etc.

[@johnmckillion5305]

No British prime minister could say no to the USA president, remember a conflict in 1939 where the USA came to our assistance ?

[@tonycook7679]

@@johnmckillion5305 trouble is that no nation acts except in its own interest, specially the US. There was a US president that warned the Australian PM at the time that relying on the US to save one's bacon was a fool's errand. When the US joined in the European war of 1939, it only did so because the US president at that time saw that it was necessary for the US too. Don't waste British lives in pointless and unjustified US wars. There is no payback, ever.

[@raaf4678]

Thats right, for the USA it was important to keep Europe as an ally at the time. And the whole middle eastern politics is all about the dollar.

[@tsunchoo]

This is all pretty depressing. Seems like Nations (England in this case) need to be able to admit when they're wrong - much like individuals, and given support and humility when doing so - otherwise we never break out of this cycle of destruction and decay, plus, the Earth is saying we don't have endless time to get over ourselves either.

[@MRW515]

How was Brexit wrong?

[@mikeydread62]

​@@MRW515 What were the goals in leaving the European Union and have they been achieved? I guess your answer is somewhere in that

[@MRW515]

@@mikeydread62 well as I understand it, be a sovereign nation again, be able to control immigration, stop paying money to the EU, stop the gravy train for average politicians who would move to Europe and have a lucrative but unremarkable career eg Catherine Ashton Not much has been achieved but that is because the politicians don't appear to work for the electorate as they should (from any of the larger parties) as far as I can see.

[@teddyzaehmer]

​@@MRW515i always find it funny that beeing a sovereign nation is a argumant for anything. I mean, are you rly sovereign if you have to match you foreign policy with your Nato partners, can you run an effective administration because you send people to the UN or are you better off because you ignore International courts ? If one Nation wants to controlle Things like imigration or International standarts, they wont manage that by closing themselfes off the rest of the world

[@MRW515]

@@teddyzaehmer being a sovereign nation doesn't have anything to do with being closed off to the rest of the world or ignoring international courts, they are strawman arguments. What is your background, what is your culture?

[@timphillips9954]

Like most of us in my country are Welsh and not British. The UK is not one nation but four. Yet again a very English view of the UK. It drives me nuts!

[@bazzacuda_]

3 and a bit stolen off a 4th, depending on where you view it from.

[@timphillips9954]

It depends on what the people who live there vote for@@bazzacuda_

[@batcollins3714]

Two subservient nations and a colony in Ulster.

[@timphillips9954]

@@batcollins3714 I would not say England is a subservient nation

[@niteglow980]

The Swinging 60s and Britpop were mentioned but there was also a Rave revolution (Summer of Love) from the early 80s and 90s onwards. Rave culture broke down boundaries and shaped our identity. It continues to be influential today with club nights and festivals around the world. New genres like Hardcore, Jungle, Uk Garage and Drum’n’bass were born out the early Rave phenomenon. Drum’n’bass/Jungle was created out of an expression of multicultural Britain and is one of our best exports around the world IMHO. It would be nice if people recognised the contribution of this to British identity more.

[@johnproton259]

Well said. 👏👏👏👏👏

[@idonthavealoginname]

Totally agree.Sadly its been destroyed by Tory Britain.

[@niteglow980]

@@idonthavealoginname DnB and Jungle is still there. Bigger than ever.

[@JohnnyinMN]

I typed in ‘Primal Scream.’

[@johnproton259]

@@JohnnyinMN did the top hit come up with a person reacting to the Brexit referendum result. That was the true vanishing point, the real screamdelica.

[@grahamwarwick3785]

Well worth th time it took. Some very interesting points came up, especially about our rather strange view of our own entitlement.

[@eveb.6568]

agree 100%

[@ajeet490]

A 3.8% margin should never have been accepted as a mandate to leave the EU. Cameron failed to define what would have been an acceptable majority before the Referendum took place. Presumably at least 12.5% but nothing less than 5%.

[@lws7394]

Indeed. If you want to change a constitution law of a country it usually needs a reinforce majority ( 2/3 or 60%) of parliament. This referendum was so much more farfetching. And the outcome was not even binding. What an idiot, Cameron.

[@dnoco]

the people decided. Honour the decision, Jesus christ...

[@teddyboysdontknit810]

@@dnoco The referendum was not set in stone, like all voting, people change their minds as we learn by our mistakes.

[@dnoco]

believe all the pro eu propaganda you like, polls and articles included. Thats not a true reflection of the sentiment of the people, exactly how it was in the original vote. You only have to look at whats happening in European politics right now, you're seeing a rapidly growing call for far right governments. Do I like that, no, but its because idiots and both centre right/left government wont do their job and listen to the people they serve, which unfortunately is going to lead to further far right government appointments. @@teddyboysdontknit810

[@jmolofsson]

Nope. The outcome of the (advisory) referendum wasn't a mandate. On the other hand, something like 75-80 percent of the votes in Westminster was. Put the blame where it belongs!

[@martinbennett2228]

There is an inconsistency in Ivan Rogers view about the future relations with the EU, he claims there is no return to the EU or the Single Market, but also sees the inevitability of a much closer relationship which would raise questions about the lack of influence European affairs, which could only be resolved by a return to involvement in the decision making processes.

[@ColinBarrett001]

Logical. It will come about, but probably not for another generation or two, when the current shitshow has been properly consigned to history.

[@jurakerleha]

Maybe EFTA or EEA is way for UK being in EU and out as well UK had from start EFTA or EEA option but UK politicians demonised both options

[@garyb455]

The question should be is the EU great ? it has declined over 50% economically compared to the USA in 25 years. That's a record they try very hard to keep quiet. There is a reason why the right is winning elections all across Europe, this great Left Wing experiment has been a dismal failure.

[@Mr.barba97]

@@jurakerlehaNorway doesn’t want uk in it. End of discussion sorry

[@batcollins3714]

You couldn't make good decisions as was seen in the Brexit decision so why would we in the EU would allow you to have any say whatsoever in our business?

[@chriswills9437]

Seven years on the extent of the delusion is becoming more obvious...beautifully said.

[@hectorpascal]

Yes Britain!... that's certainly a very fascinating long history you have had. But what have you done RECENTLY - other than replaying the old videos of your successes during Empire, treating the European natives with contempt and gazing adoringly at your own navel?

[@idonthavealoginname]

'Export them ( Australia) the Beano' ! hahaha.Armando absolutely nails the crushing incompetence of British politicians.I wish he was Prime Minister as he speaks so much sense.

[@jmudikun]

Thank you for this excellent discussion

[@anthonyrybicki1000]

"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" as his passport states. His serious point however is that we live in a timewarp of 50's Britain and celebrate past victories not the present. The diversity of democratic values and vibrant arts should be exalted along with the ability of the long suffering population to endure political idiocy and bad administration.

[@Human-le9nt]

So why doesn’t Sinn Fein have a representation in the UK parliament but DUP has?

[@RalphBrooker-gn9iv]

I’m an ex British soldier, 12 years, active service. Britain has to confront its past. France is actually slightly better than us at doing that; at saying we’ve done bad things to peoples, to cultures, to tribes, &c. I don’t see how this is an existential crisis for a former empire. It’s just a matter of brute fact. Whatever past intentions may have been (some will have been utterly appalling), the issue is the consequences.

[@arandmorgan]

The older generation tend to vote the most, they tend to have the strongest sense of cultural nostalgia. This leads to the protection of old infrastructure and ubstructs house building because they want to maintain the value of the properties they own. The High speed rail project was derailed because of this, due to having the rail travel through underground tunnels. Housing targets haven't been met because of NIMBYism. They also voted to leave the EU because when they were younger the uk was a leader in global trade, which is no longer the case. Its financial services that involve tax havens that look after war criminals and oligarch personal fortunes, are the only thing keeping it's economy afloat. It outsourced it's production and is a net importer of it's food. Basically, it's arrogance is running it into the ground. It needs to STFU and start sucking up to its allies, and try to get some investment, that should be put into production, and accept that its properties are over-valued, it's infrastructure has been neglected and it should move into the 21st century. 🤙

[@garyb455]

The question should be is the EU great ? it has declined over 50% economically compared to the USA in 25 years. That's a record they try very hard to keep quiet. There is a reason why the right is winning elections all across Europe, this great Left Wing experiment has been a dismal failure.

[@TheLucanicLord]

It wasn't though. The reason Thatcher wanted to join the EU was to fix the country's economic problems. It was called the sick man of Europe for a reason.

[@dam8087]

Boomers, the most selfish generation in human history

[@rodmarker2071]

@@garyb455 No matter how many times you post it - it's still fake news 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Korschtal]

If the Tories could grift out of more housing they'd soon meet their targets, boomers or no. Their chums in the construction industry have a vested interested in keeping prices high by reducing supply. Then the Tories use it to scapegoat immigrants. Again.

[@leviathon2]

We have got to raise the bar for who we allow into politics

[@herme99]

I think on the whole, the people who would be our best MPs don’t want to run as MPs

[@buzzukfiftythree]

We do but, to be honest, when one looks back through political history, most parliaments had competent and incompetent MPs. It was just that one never got to know about them outside of the Palace of Westminster. However, when even senior Tories are saying that significant numbers of the 2019 intake were not ‘up to scratch’ then you know we do have to have a reset.

[@johndevoy5792]

From an Irish perspective, the UK has always seemed a dysfunctional fractured place, with a very odd political system, no codified 'constitution', an out of date monarchy etc. etc ...and certainly since Brexit, as one Irish commentator put it, it's now seen globally like the emperor with no clothes....and another saying Brexit 'is the mirror into which England in particular, needs to look at itself to discover what it is (...Ireland has had a good 100 year head start on that road! ) Re. a book about India leaving the 'empire' ...it seems once again, part of UK establishment seems incapable of looking west over the water, to see and grasp the significance of its nearest neighbour, the first country to break away from it after centuries of turmoil. There is a commonly held view in Ireland, that 1. Britain, was never Great. and 2. if it understood its neighbour more than it does, it would understand itself a whole lot more. Now that's worth a discussion.

[@briansteele2723]

It seems policy on EU staff and their residence in the UK is relaxing a little a realisation that we need EU people. The only issue is that young Brits don't have the same opportunities as they used to to work in Europe

[@michaelharrington7656]

The Empire was always more myth than reality and arose as a kind of emotional compensation for the start of Britain's relative decline in the last decades of the 19th century. That is why late Victorian jingoism had a rather desperate flavour. After 1918 imperialism faded rapidly as a political force despite the efforts of Lord Beaverbrook and co. Britain's relative decline followed naturally from the spread of industry around the world and the US is going through the same process now. Self acceptance is the begining of wisdom as Carl Jung tried to teach everybody. It is always a problem for the far Right.

[@Jimdixon1953]

I sort of agree with that but it seems a bit of a convenient teleological interpretation . I do agree late Victorian jingoism does have a strong air of desperation to it like they know the Empire is at its high water mark, but that could also be us looking back at it knowing how it all panned out.

[@annepoitrineau5650]

Not to forget the poverty in the UK, while the empire was being built.

[@kev792]

Great points made. As a person from the US, looking at the UK in history, it was a VERY powerful empire but it was mostly hollow. Most of the land that Britain controlled was colonies and not its "true" land. Most of the natural resources came from these areas. And as the natural progression of values and people fighting for independence came along, these colonial practices were looked upon as immoral, and a lot of Britain's power faded as the colonies left. In terms of the US its empire is also leaving as more and more citizens and general consensus realizes that regime change and destabilization are bad. But differently from Britain, a huge portion of the US's power lies in its lands and it will retain a lot of its wealth, influence, energy reliance, population growth, etc. Although a lot of the world's affairs will still be influenced by the US and China, we will see the rise of a lot of players like India, Brazil, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Poland, and ASEAN powers (Russia possibly as well but it doesn't really influence Europe as much and is losing the central Asian region) influencing more and more in their regions and in the world.

[@MRW515]

The Empire was used as a strawman argument by remainers

[@Jimdixon1953]

@@MRW515 How so? Do you mean in terms of remainers saying leavers wanted to return to the days of empire?

[@JHatLpool]

A really good discussion. For me, Armando Ianucci nails it with his comments at 21:55 to 22:40.

[@dmisso42]

Thatcher Day should celebrate the DECLINE of GB. Her policies have led to the present chaotic and detremental situation: Railways, Water,, Docks - all in chaos and foreign or Shareholder ownership.

[@dnoco]

agreed! Brexit was still a good idea though in my opinion, its just being handled horrifically. If we actually had radical overhaul Brexit would be a huge success.

[@ExiledGypsy]

The UK hasn't changed. It is just paying too much attention to its ugliest side that was kept in the dark for too long. This is how Germany found itself in the grip of fascism as part of the self inflicted defeat of the 1st World War. Like Brexit, Germany started an unnecessary war out of newly found hubris. I remember how things were in the early 70s when it was refused entry into EC but then there was North Sea Oil and Euro tunnel and the 80s greed. But after 2008 it started blaming Europe instead for not getting even richer. I kept trying to point out the projects financed by the EU outside of London that wouldn't have happened if it were up to Westminister but everyone was in rush to get back to glory of the previous two decades that had made the UK at least look more like France and Germany of the 70s.

[@jwadaow]

That is very clearly not true. Germany is an idealistic country that always nurtured the belief it was destined to be great and wished to humiliate Britain to claim what they saw as its rightful place in the twentieth century. By contrast Britain is seen as the spear-carrier for American hegemony even more outside Europe than within the EU. That is the result of Britain choosing America as the successor rather than another European power in the 40s. The declining benefits of American dominance even as the elite class wish to hold onto it is the source of the crisis for the establishment that is shown in national movements that counter the American-driven trend of unifying subordinate countries within globally oriented bodies. The sense of panic is what they hope they can assuage by bringing the sentinal country for managing the European flock back under control so that they can shore up the post-war order that financially has been so successful for them for a few more years while they get their money out.

[@celt456]

Thanks for this fascinating video; great guests, too!

[@carlosoliveiraoalfacinha]

As an european Portuguese and a former student at the British Council a long time ago I learnt to be critical and more tolerant thanks to british culture.

[@daydays12]

Good discussion from all. Thank you very much.

[@lafayettemoreira4423]

Big or small, these are relative matters. Is Brexit Britain really independent? from Frankfurt and Washington?

[@RasmusDyhrFrederiksen]

Great and nuanced discussion.

[@MRW515]

It's just an echo chamber, nothing great about it at all

[@andrewrobinson2565]

I'm not left-wing. I LEFT during the "window of opportunity" as the UK's membership of the EU will come to be known.😊 Great prog+1

[@annepoitrineau5650]

Your point?

[@andrewrobinson2565]

@@annepoitrineau5650 Mr. Ianucci suggested that criticising the UK left one open to accusations of being "left wing". I vote Renaissance. Our President was finance minister in the most recent socialist government. 🇨🇵🇪🇺 That's my point - I'm not left-wing, I just LEFT. What's YOUR point ☝️?

[@thehilligan]

Good conversation. Thank you.

[@michaelmccarthy9411]

How people in Britain actually believe that the empire was a force for good in the world is completely beyond me. I do know, however, that it has led to British exceptionalism and entitlement.

[@MRW515]

Take Australia, it went from the stone age to the modern age in 300 years. Please describe this British exceptionalism and entitlement.

[@michaelmccarthy9411]

@@MRW515 One example; in that video the contributors speak about having another referendum as if all that has to happen is a positive vote in a new referendum. This is not the case. There would have to be serious negotiations first to see under what conditions the EU would readmit the UK, if at all.

[@johnproton259]

Patriotism is wanting your country to be the best version of itself and to criticise it where it deserves to be. Nationalism is loving your country but thinking it is automatically and naturally superior to all other countries and their cultures, while refusing to ever criticize it as you don't believe it's able to ever be wrong. We need more patriots and less nationalists but the tories and their voters are nationalists. The national crisis is them having had their own way for 14 years and it feels impossible to not criticize the absolute sheer state of it! 💩🇬🇧💩 and they are scrambling around for anyone else to blame otherwise their world will fall apart.

[@user-gl6ix2lu6f]

So worth listening to such articulate commentry

[@dudestyle01]

Brilliant... Actual thought process, ideas and imagination It's becoming very rare

[@marcussaul8496]

Time Travelling Santa Claus... 😂😂😂😂 Well I'm afraid I'm going to purloin that for my own use.

[@paultaylor7082]

Excellent comment by Armando, highlighting the awful state of the current politicians in power. This is what happens when you don't listen to the 'experts'.

[@riddlerandsa8161]

If Starmer says that they "need to make Brexit work", how much stronger do you want the admission that it currently does not work? Everything else would just be self-flagellation. And I thought even the Catholic Church had moved on from that...

[@dnoco]

The reason why he says that is because if he even mutters the possibility of rejoining his votes are going to fall of a cliff.

[@hughjass8430]

In Brexiteer's head, they were trading in a ropey old banger for a brand new, smooth, stylish car..... British built of course.....! In reality, they were abandoning their own perfectly serviceable car for a pushbike and screaming at the dealer that if they don't get a good deal on the pushbike they're happy to walk!

[@andrewrobinson2565]

Love this ❤.

[@garrysimpson1395]

Also remember a week before the E.U. Referndum the M.P. for Batley and spen was murdered in cold blood by an Ult-right extremist

[@williampatrickfagan7590]

The heyday of Great Britain was in the late 19th Century. When Ireland foought for and won its freedom, the writing was on the wall for the Empire and for GREAT Britain. The late Queen had the map of her Empire redrawn at least 3 times during her reign.

[@tolhumexy6706]

True. Not so great for other countries we 'freed'.

[@ColinBarrett001]

The relevance of which in the 21st century is...? What exactly...?

[@williampatrickfagan7590]

@@ColinBarrett001 Compare and contrast my post in an easy. Essay A level history exam. An impossibility for British A Level students as they are thought nothing about the occupation murder rape pillage and genocide in and of Ireland comitted by the British in Ireland over 800 years.

[@marleneMS]

That really makes me feel sick!

[@annepoitrineau5650]

Yes, I am always completely baffled by the ignorance of mainland citizens when it comes to Ireland vs England. When I first came to the UK (during the Troubles) I was told that it was really just something between the Scots and the Irish. Later, I tried to explain, but that just alienated most people. In fact. mainland citizens are not even "unionists". They do not give a monkey's. Many will tell you seriously that Scotland, Wales and NIreland are a drain on England's resources. I despair. @@williampatrickfagan7590

[@rossdavis2294]

What a refreshing intellectual balance discussion, thank you.

[@richardsalisbury496]

There is no balance it's just the usual Brexit and Brit bashing

[@williamirwinhunt229]

Should be working ... but you got my interest ! As a die-hard Europhile I am pleased to hear that in effect all roads lead to us re-engaging .. but we really want re-joining .. with the EU - Sooner rather than later as it's obvious Brexit was a very very stupid idea. This ridiculous negative rhetoric that the Government and right wing use to undermine everything is the elephant in the room for me !! I am becoming more ashamed by the day of being British with such an ideologically negative crew in charge .... We have hope if people like yourself are still here to show things for what they really are ... !! Thank you

[@MrHmjg]

great show...

[@plumduff3303]

Very interesting thanks

[@jpc443]

Didn't realise how gastly Britain is until I left.

[@richardtuxford1812]

I find it fascinating that one of my favourite satirists growing up is also an excellent political analyst.

[@TheLucanicLord]

The two roles are practically merged these days.

[@garrysimpson1395]

The 11 words that always going to damm Brexit. Ending of free trade. Ending of free movement and N. Ireland.

[@mechanicaldavid4827]

Curiously high mentions of Truss considering how recent this interview is. Almost as if the disastrous legacy of Johnson/Truss steamrolls down any contours raised since...

[@1705louloutte]

All very interesting

[@Irene-im8xi]

Scotland is a vassal state in the union but we're expected to suck it up 😢

[@geekexmachina]

Im almost tempted to wonder if the tories have the idea of dealing with AI and Space etc rather that trade traditional agreements as a way in to getting back their seat at the table

[@briansteele2723]

Would be interesting to know if Labour would support opening migrant/ asylum processing in France.

[@terencefield3204]

As a person who for some many years had lived in Britain, lived in France, lived in the United States and travels internationally I can only say that from my perspective, Britain has been a functional disaster since 1945, is now moral failure, is a relative cultural vacuum, and a political obscenity of such now very profound dimensions, that nobody, I know anywhere I go, irrespective of their political affiliations in their local societies, has any much respect or regard for it at all. Very sadly I share the view. Britain is truly now exceptional in that it is one of the nastiest places to visit ,one of the most unfair and badly governed, ruthless places that I know of. When I was young there it was none of those things. It was very poor, the war had ripped everything from it, but there was a great hope for the future and people were kinder. Now the poor left rot. The healthcare system does not treat for lack os resources and competent structure, the pension system a disgrace, the road system pitiful, the train system so expensive you can’t use it, the social welfare system for the elderly an utter crime, and the political class from wherever they come behave like dissociated aristocrats and are often simply patronizing swine. Yesterday I listened to the so-called head of the NHS saying that the system was ‘running hot’’ - arrogant man - what it is doing is failing to meet demand because the model built in the 1940s and unimproved is the worst healthcare model on earth in modern states, except for places like Africa and South Asia and no one has the guts to change it. No one the moral imperative to change it , no politician cares for his own population enough to do anything other than watch people be untreated, or in adequately treated. For shame. Elderly people in Britain get 10 minutes social care to get them out of bed and a bowl of cornflakes is almost thrown at them and at night 10 to 15 minutes to put them to bed. At the same time, tatty opportunistic politicians struct their stuff around the world with the bloody aircraft carriers 2/3 empty of planes, their half a dozen tanks and the interest payments on debt greater than their health service and half the military budget. They simply look pitiful and ridiculous at cop, 28 when the Indian says to the world, they can’t afford to decarbonize because their people are so poor their domestic budget will not stand the pressure Then he goes on to say that the world is grateful for Britain and its energy changes to date. One could not make up such nonsense, the man is an idiot. it seems anyone can become Prime Minister of that place now and none of them take it seriously and indeed why the hell would one given everything that has happened there since 1945 where a gentle population has been so poorly and continuously abused by bigots, self interests and political incompetence. . Very sadly the alternative government of the human demo that is Starmer has just third rate warmed over ideas - a version of 1945 with as much distorted imagination, but this time no great people in it. Decline in Britain’s precipitous. It is described by major financial institutions as an emerging i.e., Third World state, 100 years ago it was a monoculture of immense achievement, and surpassing wealth and authority.. it is a pity for all to see. Towering over this is a no dreadful sectarian BBC dedicated from what I can see to continuous political interference, naked propagandizing with the intention of ensuring that peoples minds are scrambled, and they do not know what is right and true. No, the young British people are stripped of a historically, rigorous context of the past because of this can make little sense can make of the present that is other perverse. In a super competitive world, there is now no escape from such profound failure, other than by massaging economics, statistics and including areas of activity other European countries do not include in order to pretend that you are doing relatively well

[@sarlotelolaite5708]

Excellent video. Spot on points!!!

[@anthonysullivan3238]

I enjoyed that, it was really clever and interesting. Let's get the Tories out and start to re-build our relationships with the EU, Macron has already floated an idea for a new arrangement for an EU lite for the likes of the UK and Ukraine etc, so the door is open for movement.

[@garyb455]

The question should be is the EU great ? it has declined over 50% economically compared to the USA in 25 years. That's a record they try very hard to keep quiet. There is a reason why the right is winning elections all across Europe, this great Left Wing experiment has been a dismal failure.

[@Handles_are_garbage]

Regarding immigration: it's not just the loudness of the voices of the anti-immigration people, it's not just declining standards in Britain generally, but changes to immigration policy (the minimum income requirements and the ever increasing costs of both visa and NHS surcharge) make the prospect less appealing. My wife is a foreign national and British decline made us question our future here. The changes to policy, although easily affordable to us, represent an attitude that my wife isn't welcome here and so we've decided to leave. I know we won't represent a majority in this decision, but I'm also aware of many other people who have done or are doing the same. So Britain is less appealing to those with other options and not affordable to those who seek a better life... who's left?

[@iactr3807]

Not one person on this panel has stated the obvious - exceptionalism is another word for NARCISSISM. Narcissism is exploding in the culture and also in politics but ultimately it’s an illness state of being & an unconscious defence of the mind against deep feelings of shame & worthlessness. These are not the leaders we need but they are the people who become the leaders.

[@davidstirk4732]

Refreshing to hear a sensible discussion on the UKs place in the world. Nice to listen to like minded people talking in measured terms about issues. I get frustrated listening to Far right rhetoric from the Farage ERG types and far left anti British ideas from the Corbynistas and Momentum types. Would love the UK to get more to the middle ground of politics where I think most of the voters are.

[@dnoco]

The public are middle ground You're right we need a middle ground government, but with polls coming in at over 80% of British voters, including labour voters wanting radical change on legal immigration, and then being spoke to in a way by these out of touch plonkers about rejoining the EU to enjoy open boarders and freedom of movement, and if you don't agree then youre a racist nationalist, then take a wild guess what the sentiment is going to be....

[@davidstirk4732]

The immigration position at the moment is no better than before Brexit. Worse in fact. Open borders and free movement only apply to EU nationals. The immigration we are getting from India and Nigeria, the 2 biggest groups, is the UK's responsibility and always has been. The UK gets no reciprocal benefits from these countries as it used to do with EU countries. We need to be a part of the EU so we can cooperate with other EU countries to reduce illegal immigration from across the Mediterranean. Using labour from EU nationals is more beneficial to the UK than using labour from abroad. We get reciprocal benefits. The labour is more flexible. It moves away when labour is more plentiful elsewhere within the EU and the individuals send remittances home to poorer parts of the EU which builds them up and strengthens the EU as a whole which benefits all EU members.

[@dnoco]

The argument was that when it comes to illegal and legal migration these laws are not written up within a UK court, they was written within EU court, meaning we couldn't re write the laws to enforce aggressive deportation, or control the number of legal and illegal migrants coming in. Now whilst we was in the EU, for being apart of that council we needed to legally take x amount of illegal immigrants, and could not deport them. Which today is not the case, however we are having a difficult time doing anything because its currently going through our own court system in comparison to going through an EU court whilst we was there. We are also tussling with the UN, which I would imagine we shall be ripping up shortly. Having said all this, illegal immigration is a small fraction of the issue, its actually legal immigration with 700,000 people coming in last year. 700K!! So if we then re join the EU freedom of movement do you feel this number is going to decrease? The tories have been completely incompetent, and labour will be voted in, but mark my words, if labour to do fix both the legal and illegal immigration issue (which they wont, they'll just sign up to take more from the EU) then I give them 1 term and they'll be slung out in favour of a extreme right wing government, probably a torie reshuffle headed by mr brexit Nigel farage. Sadly...think about it, the labour party want to fix immigration by signing us up to take illegal immigrants from the same place we left to fix immigration, yet we are told the EU wasn't a contributing factor to illegal immigration it was all in our hands, yet to get any deals done we NEED to take illegal migrants from the EU as part of that deal....hmmmm lol make it make sense. and this is all because the government simply wont listen to its people, they say we need immigration, immigration is great. Yes thats true for skilled labour, but the people are feeling the strains. I live in central London, i'm lucky enough to live in a housing association new build. Theres 60 flats here and out of the 60 flats there is around 4 white British people living here, and less than 5 British people of colour. Out of 60 flats! 9 British in total! Now does that mean i'm just being racist, no! I look around and I don't see my people, I don't feel a sense of community, I don't feel I can relate. I do not feel like i'm in the the Uk or the London of even 2005. tbh i feel incredibly isolated. This is how the public feels and thats why a radical right wing party will be voted in, simply because the current torie party and more than likely labour will not do anything tangible about it@@davidstirk4732

[@davidstirk4732]

@@dnoco If we have a better government that facilitates more houses being built, improves the NHS and increases employment and living standards then immigration won't be such a divisive subject. I agree we need less immigration but it is a less important issue than the ones I have mentioned. The Tories failure on the other more important issues has caused immigration to be a hot topic. We have full control of immigration from abroad. The government is allowing legal migration to be big because the economy needs it. I think we should cut down on immigration from abroad and allow immigration from the EU and the government must deal with the poor growth in the economy partly caused by Brexit.

[@dnoco]

I agree with everything your'e saying but but putting that into motion is nearly impossible, EU writes the laws on immigration, for example you have Brexit negotiator michael barnier coming out crying for the EU with an urgent appeal to re write immigration legislation to protect france because france is going down the shitter. Now if france like you argue the uk whilst part of the EU has full autonomy over their borders why would they be crying to the EU to change the laws. So re joining is not going to help us with the migration crisis. Im not anti migration, but its clearly and I think the country whether youre pro or anti migration, left or right, agrees its currently out of control and people dont need statistics to understand this, they just look around at their environment and its in their face everyday. Immigration isn't the be all and end all for growth, and its frustrating when people say this. Is immigration a form of growing the economy, yes, but its not the only way. If we had less immigration and upskilled our own population, as well as taking control of assets thats currently hurting the average joes standard of living then youre going to grow the economy. For example, more skilled British workers which demands a higher minimum salary and lowering bills/tax drastically by taking control of privatised assets sold by the tories (energy & transport) which will drive down the prices of expenses, improving the standard of living of the average joe, which translates to more people spending and economic growth. We are not growing because everyones skint. You could argue if we wasn't being fleeced in hard times we wouldn't be worrying about growth right now. So having said all this, is immigration good for growth, absolutely, we need it, but out of control immigration is horrendous for growth, it looks good on paper at the beginning but then its a race to the bottomless pit that stagnates wages and piles on pressured onto services, until we flood ourselves with more unskilled migrants to bump the numbers up for another year. If we had genuine controlled immigration of skilled labour, maybe just maybe we might stand a chance building enough homes, and expanding services to keep up with demand. Anyway, I would just like to thank you for having a genuine debate and it not being toxic, we may not agree but its civil and we need more of this rather than throwing insults around, so thanks David!@@davidstirk4732

[@littlehouse894]

Why can't we all agree that UK plc is knackered and toddle off to our nearest foodbank.

[@marksimons8861]

This was tip top discussion and so aligned with my views.

[@eveb.6568]

Extremely good talk

[@malcolmmcgougan8372]

Excellent. Very balanced, positive in outlook and well thought through. I think many will feel a little more optimistic at the end of the debate than the beginning. All we have to do now is find a [political party to adopt those ideas. The immigration debate is so negative, we have missed as well highlighted the upside...

[@brianobrain8985]

Your comment has not gone unheard.

[@jacobfield4848]

Rich people in London waffling.