Pokémon Speedrunning's Most Nightmarish Fight: Rival 2

Thanks for watching! Rival 2 has killed so many runs over the years, so let's take a look at what makes it so terrible in the earlier generation of pokemon games.
You can find all of my music here: soafnb40.bandcamp.com/
And here: open.spotify.com/artist/44J25...
All my links are here: linktr.ee/soafnb40
Buy me a coffee here: ko-fi.com/tortoisecity
intro: 00:00
Pokémon Red: 2:21
Pokémon Crystal: 4:34
Pokémon Emerald: 10:26
Common Themes: 12:51
Remake Comparisons: 14:34

[@tortoisecity]

Thanks for watching everyone! If you liked this video, consider checking out my other Pokémon videos in this rinky dinky playlist: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h4DYkJijmseGqKs peace and love, TC.

[@maneruloquendero]

"Croconaw is much less of a threat than Bayleef" is a phrase I never expected to hear

[@tortoisecity]

it surprises us all, but my heartrate shoots up and my blood pressure increases when I see that bayleef on screen

[@ChocolateSoda1]

Bruhhh Meganium isn’t that bad in Gen 2 OU

[@Pao-vo8mf]

anyone who played gen 2 games or remakes enough know very well how bayleef, for the moment of the game it's generally obtained, is way more useful than quilava and croconaw with its status moves and stall-ish capabilities. of course, in late/post game, meganium's lackluster offenses, shallow movepool and the fact its bulk becomes insufficient to endure attacks as foes become stronger, makes it inferior to typhlosion and feraligatr

[@fenixchief7]

​@@ChocolateSoda1straight up. Alot of people did not play these games when they came out and just meme the mons gens later even tho alot of staples of gen 1 and 2 could not keep up. Typlosion doesnt get flamethrower and Feraligatr is a physical attacking water type. Neither is very good in gen 2. Chikorita is a legit option, particularily because there are much better water and fire types.

[@tortoisecity]

certainly in gen 2 competitive, where the meta leaned towards bulky walls that could outstall their opponents, meganium is pretty decent, however most people do associate it with lacklustre offenses and not sweeping through the base game as well as either feraligatr or typhlosion

[@Auron3991]

If I remember correctly, the GSC rival fight was so bad that some people in early runs used Cyndaquil over Totodile.

[@tortoisecity]

cyndaquil was for a time the preferred starter for this very reason. If I recall, once they switched to the totodile-rage-to-raikou strategy, the cynda times fell away a bit - could be wrong though!

[@amberhernandez]

The fastest runs I've had for Gold involved Cyndaquil, a Geodude, Mareep, and Abra. The last two slots usually have Kenya the Spearow for Fly, and whatever Water HM bum I can pick up along the way (they're all pretty slow to make useful, though).

[@reillywalker195]

​@@amberhernandezGyarados is a mandatory encounter in Gen II and has a decent base speed stat of 81. If not Feraligatr, Gyarados is probably the best Water-type to go for in a speedrun, at least if you can actually catch it.

[@tortoisecity]

the heartgold/soulsilver manipless run actually uses a gyarados because you can get a level 50 magikarp after morty's gym north of Mahogany town, so it's a very decent speedrun main if you can get one!

[@amberhernandez]

@@reillywalker195 Blegghghgh, I keep forgetting that's mandatory. It's been so long since I've played 😭

[@GoldenSon18]

The fact that these fights are so dreaded in speedruns kinda speaks for how well designed they are gameplay wise. They make sure that the player isn't solely relying on their starter to carry them through the whole game

[@tortoisecity]

yeah that really plays into a lot of run strategies too - ORAS does switch to the legendaries later on though

[@DanJuega]

That didn’t stop me as a kid

[@superlombax1561]

​@@DanJuegaWell, yeah, if you level up your mons high enough. Newer generations, that doesn't even seem like an issue, leaving the Gym Leaders to pick up the slack.

[@DanJuega]

@@superlombax1561 I dunno. The difficulty of a pokemon game is on the same level as tic tac toe.

[@superlombax1561]

@@DanJuega If you say so.

[@mude_13]

Ending speedruns might be the only thing the Chikorita line excels at

[@tortoisecity]

it certainly excels at it

[@thewolfofthestars1847]

Hey, now! Choosing Chikorota as a starter Pokemon in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time/Darkness/Sky is considered the best choice for completionist runners, because its IQ group lets it gain a skill that makes it more likely for defeated Pokemon to ask to join your team, so completing the Pokedex is faster and easier!

[@Denizu]

​@@thewolfofthestars1847 You know when parents hear their children talk about video games and say that it all sounds like "greek"? Your comment has made me completely understand that now

[@user-nj1li3pp8i]

Most capable of the Illumina phenomenon in the Pokemon Snap spinoff?

[@spaceonisorceress4406]

@@Denizu Smart leaf does smart things.

[@breakfaith3031]

I like how nuzlockers and speedrunners fear the same battles in the early game

[@tortoisecity]

I can totally see how all of these would be completely terrifying in a nuzlocke

[@morphstarchangeling8024]

That rival 2 in johto looks horrible for a casual playthrough. Bro just is like "Nah. You don't get to play today."

[@Punaparta]

​@@morphstarchangeling8024In Pokémon, a casual player actually has natural advantages over challenge runners at this point of the game. If you're playing just for fun, you'll likely have a full team by Azalea Town and with that, sufficient type coverage to take on even Silver. Since catching Pokémon takes time and isn't technically required to beat the game, a speedrunner will naturally avoid doing it as much as possible, thus risking the run hard at Rival 2.

[@Bothrops_Asper_89]

@@morphstarchangeling8024 The thing is in normal playthroughs you usually have something that can take down the rival's starter. Spearow, Pidgey, Zubat or Gastly for Bayleef. Geodude, Wooper or Onix for Quilava. Mareep, Oddish or Bellsprout for Croconaw. Nuzlockers and Speedrunners don't tend to have that liberty.

[@funnySIMON99]

Rival 2 in Ruby traumatized me when I was a kid. When I later played Emerald I was preparing this fight like if it was the D-Day

[@tortoisecity]

yeah it's very bad in both

[@mayoneas8224]

kuroha profile picture spotted rare sight

[@funnySIMON99]

@@mayoneas8224 Someone who recognize my profile picture ? I see you're a cultured man as well

[@kinglyzebra6417]

My main takeaway from this is that "consecutive" moves like fury cutter and echoed voice are way more powerful/busted than I initially thought

[@tortoisecity]

they are used surprisingly common in speedruns, rage is in the same category and is a large part of why the run uses totodile over cyndaquil to this point

[@asdfqwerty14587]

Well.. it's not really that they're good, it's more that they're "the only setup moves you have" at that stage of the game. Setup moves of all kinds are incredibly strong against the AI, especially in the early game where fights last longer so you have more time to set up.. I mean, if you had access to dragon dance/swords dance/nasty plot etc. and a high power move you'd still never even consider using moves like fury cutter and echoed voice, but you just don't have access to those things and it's a budget alternative.

[@valmanway1844]

Echoed voice is way better than it seems definitely, especially with stab

[@axolofa]

I was wondering why Rival 2 was difficult in Crystal when I've never felt that way before realizing "oh it's because I'm always the one with the Bayleef"

[@tortoisecity]

yeah but then you gotta fight scyther with a bayleef

[@raydespoir]

What really elevated this video for me was the comparisons with the remakes. Was not expecting that but it added a lot of interesting contrast. Well done!

[@tortoisecity]

thanks! I always find comparisons between different remakes and originals interesting, especially because the mechanics change so much over time

[@raydespoir]

@@tortoisecity Speaking of which, have you seen Wersters video on the worst rival 2 fight? Your video backs up a lot of his points.

[@tortoisecity]

I am aware of Werster's video, but actively chose not to watch it so that my own judgements wouldn't be coloured while making this video. Knowing Werster, it's probably very good

[@therealshadowult]

I really liked this video. I'm not a speedrunner, but anytime I play RSE, that Rival 2 fight, it has always scared me.

[@tortoisecity]

thanks! and yeah I think it's probably the worst of the three (only because gen 3 is routed really well to avoid the issues and slugma is not nearly as bad as gastly)

[@eclipsesoluna3453]

Cynthia and Volo are _nothing_ before RSE Rival 2

[@johnozzmond9728]

I never really have an issue with Rival #2, but I also don't speedrun and tend to be generous on the battling, so I'm usually at or above them level wise, and have a full team

[@tortoisecity]

yeah if you're not trying to get through with the absolute bare minimum, then actually strategizing is a good idea - I note that a team of 6 zubats would actually do quite well against this fight

[@eclipsesoluna3453]

@@tortoisecity that's bloody hilarious lmao

[@765craven4]

Not started the video yet but I'm assuming Rival 2 Bayleef in GSC Razor Leaf is gonna be a big factor.

[@tortoisecity]

bro spoilers

[@chiropteran2966]

Gen 3 rival 2 has stayed with me ever since I was a kid, this fight even casually is a struggle.

[@tortoisecity]

yeah it's a rare area of overlap for a fight to be hard between casual and speedrunning contexts

[@passtheyaoi]

doesnt razor leaf have a 1/4 crit chance in gen II? im pretty sure that's what i saw in the crystal decomp. bulbapedia also suggests this

[@tortoisecity]

you are actually right! my apologies, please accept this as a correction. Makes the fight even worse than I say it is in the video!

[@ocarinadude762]

Shoutouts to Werster and May 2

[@Squidgy]

This was an excellent watch! As somebody who almost exclusively does solo Pokémon challenges in Crystal, I can say that Rival 2 is one of the hardest battles in that style of speedrunning, too. I've lost countless hours to the Rival's starter there, regardless of which one he has!

[@tortoisecity]

thanks! I think it's striking that casual players, challenge runners, vanilla speedrunners, and nuzlockers all have a really hard time on this one

[@lauravturner]

When I was a kid, I played a nuzlocke of Ruby. I was not ready for my team to be slaughtered in this fight. Absolutely brutal.

[@appasbiggestfan7076]

Fun video, thanks! No nightmare losses in terms of speed runs, since I don’t do those, but I do remember that grovyle being a huge annoyance back in the day

[@tortoisecity]

thanks! the grovyle is such a menace to deal with if you are unprepared

[@heirofaniu]

Ah yes, the official tagline of Gen I Pokemon; "Due to a programming error".

[@tortoisecity]

gen two: fewer programming errors, but you can beat the game even faster with glitches now

[@heirofaniu]

@@tortoisecity Which is good because Gen II is even more boring than Gen I was.

[@tortoisecity]

ah yes, the rocket grunt segment and barren kanto

[@ivanlol7153]

Cool video, very informative. I knew rival 2 in RSE was a threat but I didn’t know rival 2 was like that in gens 1-3

[@tortoisecity]

thanks! and yeah it's odd how consistently bad it is for these gens

[@Ayocartoonclips]

Fun fact: In Pokémon Emerald the Rival 2 battle near Slateport actually becomes the Rival 3 since you get to battle them before then around Rustboro City or Mr.Brine’s House.

[@tortoisecity]

true! though runners usually skip this fight, and thus refer to this rival as rival 2

[@DNZGames]

It’s a similar case to RBY with the optional fight with Rival Oak on Route 22 being the true Rival 2, but the speed running Rival 2 is the Nugget Bridge as the video says

[@bl1ndpr0phet]

Oh that second rival fight in GSC used to piss me off so badly as a kid, and I don’t even speedrun. I got stuck on it pretty frequently. I actually dreaded it when I was replaying Crystal a couple months ago lmao

[@tortoisecity]

they're very hard even for casual players

[@rickthebas]

Great video, especially with the comparison to the remakes at the ending

[@tortoisecity]

thanks! glad you liked it

[@nate3487]

Technically, the rival in Cerulean is rival 3, but you don't fight rival 2 in the speedrun.

[@antiskyze]

same in emerald

[@matheuslopes3304]

I remember getting beat again and again by Rival 2 in Silver, my first run ever. When you meet him in Olivine he's like "no need to panic". He was right, I WAS panicking

[@tortoisecity]

absolutely terrified when he turns up

[@MysteriousStoner]

take a shot everytime he says "you will die"

[@rileydavidson180]

If you do this you will not feel very well.

[@tortoisecity]

I beg you do not do this please

[@MysteriousStoner]

@@tortoisecity or else you will die. Lol

[@bramnemeth565]

If you attempt this, you will d- **passes out due to ridiculously high BAC**

[@spotify80]

Your calculative & realistic approach genuinely brings out an artistry in playing the game I didn’t know existed ❤

[@tortoisecity]

thanks! though I will give most of the credit to the people who carefully routed these fights so that they're at least passable

[@micah_raygun_]

This is awesome. I don't know anything about Pokemon speedruns so it's fascinating to get a peek about how the games change when speedrunning

[@tortoisecity]

glad you liked it! pokemon speedruns are super interesting and I will definitely make more videos about them in future

[@Will-uv9kx]

Been checking your videos and will drop a sub for sure, really like them. Well put together and not just the same as the garbage that's pumped out daily on here. These style vids seem to be the ones that blow up on your account, can imagine you doing well eventually.

[@tortoisecity]

thank you! I like making them and have lots of ideas, so more to come for sure

[@Will-uv9kx]

​​@@tortoisecitywill do, just checking your catalogue. The deeper dive pokemon fact videos are good, like you pick an interesting topic and do a thorough and complete video on it and just make it interesting. If I see anything else I'll give honest feedback, I'd like to publish a video some time. Haven't made a YT video in about 15 years though haha, hence why I like giving smaller creators a shot, plus they're the ones who do more independent and interesting topics, big tubers are often played out and stale. Ty

[@scarfhat1]

Honestly, even as a kid with no regard to speedrunning and a team of multiple pokemon these fights were still challenging

[@tortoisecity]

yeah they are a rare area of overlap of fights that are hard for both casual play and speedrunning

[@GMSryBut]

As someone who plays Pokemon but has no idea why those Route- or Pokemonchanges occurs, I would love a video why Speedrunners made the decision of changing the order of the route or their starters. (at least more than "it's faster")

[@tortoisecity]

that'd be interesting!

[@ivanzegarra9765]

I remember that rival fight in Emerald, seeing my Marshtomp get mauled by Grovyle destroyed me as a kid. That was the first time I had to experiment and try to see what type was effective against Grass, finally caught a Gulpin (in that same route) that won me the fight. Thanks May for making me adapt lmao

[@tortoisecity]

putting the gulpin there with sludge at lvl 14 was a nice touch

[@corralzin4909]

Love your video n voice can’t stop watching Pokémon before bed

[@tortoisecity]

thank you!

[@NymphieJP]

Got rival 2 in crystal is fucking awful lol but gen 3 is the absolute worst imo

[@tortoisecity]

I'm torn on this, and I can see it either way. I think I'd lean towards gen 2, but only because gen 3 has at least managed to route out some of the terrible aspects, whereas crystal remains a total mess regardless of how you route it. there's no way to route your way out of a 1/4 chance to crit you feel.

[@maroonmball]

On all three of these rival fights, I almost lost all of them the first time. I managed to squeak by though.

[@tortoisecity]

that's the quirky thing about them, is that you could so reasonably do these fights and be left with the impression that they're a little challenging, but nothing to write home about, or you could be stuck for ages and lose a lot of time.

[@legitteddybears]

In gen 1 its worth noting that oftentimes you’ll have to use megapunch against pidgeotto, at 85% accuracy its not rare to miss and give pidgeotto another turn to sand attack. That just makes the later mega punches a lot harder to hit for the rest of the fight

[@tortoisecity]

definitely - mega punch already prone to missing with sand attack is terrible

[@JJSquirtle]

Shoutout to the old Emerald rival 2 route, which was even worse as you would pick Brendan, and May opens with Wingull, which if it hits you with a single growl or supersonic, can be run-ending

[@tortoisecity]

oof that sounds awful - I'm glad they switched because it is so well routed now where you can reasonably expect to get through if you don't get any crits or misses (which is a big if, but that sort of certainly absolutely does not exist in crystal)

[@mono-watermatt3894]

As someone who exclusively uses water starters, someone highlighting how terrifying rival's Bayleef makes me feel seen.

[@tortoisecity]

i too mostly use water starters so remember the pain of the bayleef

[@hansoskar1911]

So early gen Rival 2 does exactly what it's supposed to do: deter you going solo starter for long portions of the game.

[@tortoisecity]

yep - speedrunners are the epitome of "that sign can't stop me because of I can't read" when it comes to game messaging in pokemon

[@Trelior]

"Absorb has 120 base power." No. It has 120 _modified_ power.

[@tortoisecity]

a fair distinction, I was trying to distinguish between the power without any crits or roll calculations, but modified power is a better term

[@pride_mitochondria3921]

Wait, so what about Rival Fival?

[@sakamotosan1887]

In a speedrun by that point, the starter is probably vastly overleveled and easily out speeds the whole team, I'd imagine.

[@Pao-vo8mf]

the is no such thing

[@vreeze33]

Everything is rosy by that point.

[@tortoisecity]

rival fival goes down easy after an x accuracy (which guarantees moves always hit) and a few horn drills

[@shironasama0445]

Jrose has entered the chat

[@chineseman6580]

Rival 2 in Soul Silver coupled with the first two gyms and the severe lack of trainers makes the early game the worst in the entire series. I had to reset and redo that fight because it came out of nowhere and I didn’t save or prepare before the fight. Due to bad RNG I ended up wasting over three hours getting back to that point. Not a fun experience, just like the mid-game of Johto as well.

[@tortoisecity]

that is rough

[@shatteredprism]

I was doing a "Swampert Line Only" run of Alpha Sapphire, and "Rival 2" kicked my butt multiple times. Every single time, that Grovyle would use Mega Drain and I would just end up losing if I took too much damage on the Wingull. I was playing a modded version, so the team was more challenging than it otherwise would have been. Edit: I banned the use of bag items, so I had to strategize a lot. If I remember correctly, it took me a few days (I think that or a few hours) to beat May, and then Champion Steven with his Cradily was a worse nightmare. That thing spammed Mega Drain first turn, and I had to pray I'd get lucky and not end up with a fainted Swampert, and then retaliate with Ice Beam.

[@tortoisecity]

not using items would do that (and fair enough if you want the challenge!) I can imagine that the only way to get past the grovyle there would just be grinding until you outlevel it and can tank the damage or knock it out in one hit, mono challenges can be really hard

[@shatteredprism]

​@@tortoisecityYeah! I agree! /g

[@marcosdheleno]

the funny thing is, those fights are harder because you are pretty much gimping yourself during a speedrun. meanwhile the rivals fights are meant to be checks, to force beginners to stop relying on a single pokemon, and start catching and building their own teams. its the irony of the rivals doing their job as intended, which goes counter to what speedrunners want to do to maximize their time.

[@brendansage6876]

To answer the question at the end of the video, when I was younger I did struggle a lot with Silver in SoulSilver and May/Brendan in Omega Ruby. I didn't struggle with them notably in the original games, as I played those well after the Remakes, when I was older and knew what I was doing. I've never had a hard time with Blue, including the original Red and Blue on the 3DS even though I was a similar age to when I played ORAS and HGSS.

[@tortoisecity]

interesting! while I do say that the fight is easier in ORAS because of the routing changes, it is by no means easy for casual players

[@brendansage6876]

@@tortoisecity Yeah, I sort of had a moment of realization when you said that Grovyle in ORAS was deadlier because of his better moveset, and I sure as heck wasn't setting up X Specials to cheese fights at age 11, lol.

[@tortoisecity]

no child has ever fully utilised x items in a casual playthrough tbh

[@pastelroswell]

The rival 2 fight in rubysapphire is brutal even in casual gameplay tbh

[@tortoisecity]

oh yeah it is rough in those ones as well

[@icefiredragon94]

This is such an interesting specific topic, cause i feel like these same fights are usually the wake up calls a player can't just coast along beating only trainers and the pokemon you happen to find while traveling. They tend to force you to find mons to counter them or grind in casual playthroughs, so the fact speedruns have a bad time with these is understandable with everything that can go wrong

[@tortoisecity]

yeah I find these types of things really fascinating, like tell me more about this specific spinner that most people don't fight will end your run

[@eclipsesoluna3453]

Not a speedrunner myself but Rival 2 in both GSC and RSE have given me a lot of trouble over the years its only during my most recent playthrough of Emerald did I discover that you gotta strategize more (through tbf the previous run was at least a decade ago) there's usually no brute forcing it unless you use a bunch of x and healing items, even with the other starters...unless I'm still doing something wrong, anyway

[@tortoisecity]

no you're about right - and the game certainly lets you take advantage of pokemon you can catch in the area as well. Gulpin with liquid ooze counters grovyle pretty well, especially when it gets sludge at level 14.

[@darktemplar446]

I love the video! But isn't that rival 3 of red/blue? Or don't you count optional fights?

[@Matoyak]

I'm guessing they're saying "rival 2 (in the speedrun route)", not "the second rival battle in the game". I also went "hey, wait" lol

[@tortoisecity]

you're both correct! optional fights are usually ignored in speedruns, so we just refer to nugget bridge rival as rival two

[@blastification2]

It's the same for gen 3 as well.

[@thethree13o]

The optional second one in red is often referred to as "rival 1.5"

[@TheGlactic]

Im not a speedrunner but i do remember those rival 2 fights from when i was younger sucking a lot. Especially May on my ruby version, i remember her crushing me multiple times and really disheartening me back then and i even recently had a close call against silver on my 3ds crystal virtual console playthrough. His Zubat managed to always land supersonic and flinch me with bites until i finally managed to get through.

[@bronzemcalloy]

i have an incredibly minor “um actually” regarding the 1/256 glitch from gen 1: every move has at least a 1/256 chance to miss *except for swift*, which bypasses the accuracy check altogether in every non-japanese version. not that that affects your coverage of gen 1’s rival 2 fight, since the tm for swift is only obtainable via legitimate means after the rival 2 fight and nidoking can’t learn it anyways

[@tortoisecity]

a valid point! I kind of forgot to mention this, but it's worth noting as to not give the wrong impression of gen one's various useful/useless glitches!

[@tomasburnes8600]

Dude i remember specifically the emerald fight makin me rage as a little kid loool

[@JustsomeKid93]

I respect anyone who speedruns any RPG cause of how much RNG is present in the genre, like I could maybe have the patience to speedrun a platformer where most errors are a player thing but def not an RPG

[@tortoisecity]

in most cases pokemon RNG can be played around, but there are a select few points in any run where you're hoping purely for good luck

[@derekreyes2398]

I remember that gen 2 rival fight was the 2nd hardest fight in the game for me. How hard is the gen 2 Whitney fight in speed running ?

[@tortoisecity]

not as bad as you might think, and the real threat is clefairy using metronome. If it rolls something absurd like explosion, that can end your run. Likewise for random status moves, high power super effective moves and the like

[@slimballs9650]

Emerald’s Rival 2 fight destroys me even on casual playthroughs.

[@garryame4008]

That fight in emerald kicked my butt back in the day.

[@tortoisecity]

yeah that emerald fight is so hard

[@JamesPlaysGames95]

Cant wait til we reach Rival Fivel

[@Luuute]

I remember when i played gen 3 I got stuck at the rival battle north of slateport I think it's called for so long

[@lillyie]

i like how gamefreak devs knew mudkip was gonna be a great starter so they made it part ground so it gains 4x weakness to your rival's grovyle. thanks to it, a pitifully weak move like absorb does like 80% of marshtomp's hp not to mention the healing they planned for this scenario

[@tortoisecity]

yeah it was particularly brutal to give it a 4x weakness, same goes for charizard (acknowledging that both rock and grass are not great offensively because of rock's lack of accurate moves and grasses perpetual struggle for high power)

[@lillyie]

i see grass as more of a status type considering how much disruptive moves(spore, rage powder, leech seed) are grass moves, but those aren't practical for playthroughs

[@tortoisecity]

a fair point - grass pokemon used well can be extremely annoying, but are often too slow and easy to kill to realise that slow burn potential

[@jubjubbly9793]

Even as a kid playing Heart Gold, Rival 2 was such a pain for me. Damn Gastly...

[@tortoisecity]

that gastly is such a pain, ruins your fight before it even starts

[@GattsProductions]

In red and blue, wouldn’t rival 2 be in a Viridian City towards the Pokémon league?

[@tortoisecity]

technically yes, but runners skip that fight

[@hundi001]

Gen 2 Was always nightmare for me. First Rival 2, then Whitney Milktank, Morty Gengar, Jasmine Steelix (I used to go only pidgeot when i was a little so you can assume how well such fight could go. Though suprisingly she was first using iron tail, only later resorting to rock throw) And last but not least Claire Kingdra... Good times. Good sh*t :'3

[@tortoisecity]

morty's gengar is harsh as well, not to mention whitney's clefairy

[@smergthedargon8974]

7:49 Geminerated

[@tortoisecity]

yeah i done fudged that one

[@smergthedargon8974]

@@tortoisecity goofed it

[@MapleLunii]

Even casually the rival fight on route 110 was pretty tough when I was younger, but even nowadays where I can beat it without issue I still think of it as a 'hard' fight 🤔 Not sure what its like in ORAS but I can imagine it being easier

[@tortoisecity]

they have better options for routing in oras, but it can definitely still be crushing

[@CrypticDingus]

Interesting video, never really considered any of this as I don’t speedrun. Amazing how something as easy as a simple trainer battle changes drastically in speed running.

[@tortoisecity]

thanks, and yeah it's odd how speedrunning often flips the script a bit on regularly difficult fights

[@selder_7]

You can’t even warm up Fury Cutter on Gasly to one shot Bayleef

[@tortoisecity]

nope, risks getting statused by the gastly sadly

[@LegendStormcrow]

I've always found it funny that Rival 2 in RBY is the 3rd possible rival fight.

[@tortoisecity]

yeah, but why waste time fighting optional rival, gotta go fast

[@LegendStormcrow]

@@tortoisecity I know, it's just that it's labeled like that. If I labeled it, Rival 2 would just not be listed on the strategy.

[@eyreyereye]

honestly even not in speedrunning the second rival fights in the first three gens are stupid tough for where they happen in the story

[@tortoisecity]

undoubtedly

[@jordanhewett9020]

Rival 2 in gen 1 is at veradian city …it makes more for it be no2 then than later near the end of the game as ur reward for walking that way and beating him he tells u can’t go any further without gym badges etc

[@tortoisecity]

correct - though runners usually skip that fight, so they just call nugget rival, rival 2

[@jordanhewett9020]

Oh right either way you still have to fight him at that spot just if u do it later it’s the same team as when he’s champion just the devolutions … I’ve never done it that way but does he appear from Victory road entrance and head to veradian after beating him or is it the other way around if u fight him the second time If it’s the other way around it sort of really means your ahead of him at the end of the game rather than him being one step ahead of you

[@RollingCalf]

Seems its worth the run to get a few throwaway mon for fights like these..eliminates the sand attack problem

[@tortoisecity]

you're right! you catch multiple pokemon in the red speedrun and if you get sand attacked twice, most sets of notes recommend swapping out and dying because it's safer, but much, much slower for a whole host of reasons

[@someaccount5200]

what gen is the most frustrating to speedrun, not including the remakes

[@tortoisecity]

I haven't run all gens, so I'd be remiss to say, but speaking from a "I don't think I'd wanna run those games" perspective, I'd say diamond and pearl because most trainers have totally random AI and the battles are frustratingly slow (even though I absolutely adore playing Pearl casually)

[@MilesMetal]

Are you including the lab fight in Gen 1 as the first one? If so then the Cerulean Bridge fight is the 3rd rival fight in these games since you can battle your rival on Route 22 after getting your first Pokémon.

[@politicalmetrics]

As route 22 fight is optional, speed runners don’t count it. The one in cerulean is the second one they face, and so is called ‘rival 2’

[@rainbowhooded5437]

Since they speedrun, maybe they skip that rival fight? It is out of the way technically.

[@MilesMetal]

@@rainbowhooded5437 Ah, yeah. That will be exactly why. Me being thick!

[@tortoisecity]

it's a reasonable question! but yeah, the speedrun does skip that fight, so in that context I did not include it as rival 2

[@ShinyShilla]

By your thinking, emerald rival second fight is also the third, because there is a non-mandatory one before you go for the second badge 😅

[@jamesmayo9533]

In gen 4, fighting your rival right before the steel gym was an actual nightmare for me growing up.

[@tortoisecity]

gen 4 rival is kind of weird because you both fight him a lot more than other games and also he usually has a fuller team than other rivals

[@jamesmayo9533]

@tortoisecity knowing that, how does the "rival 2 battle" in gen 4 compare to the previous 3? I never realized that he's got a much fuller and more balanced team.

[@coin4898]

Barry was the weakest rival by far for me His team was meh and nothing he did ever had me be like "OH I'm in a bad spot right now"

[@jamesmayo9533]

@coin4898 for some reason it was only the fight in canalave that ever gave me trouble.

[@tortoisecity]

rival 2 in gen 4 not nearly as bad as gens 1-3, technically it can go quite badly but in a rather hilarious way rather than a scary one, as turtwig has a really strong tendency to use withdraw, and piplup deals basically 0 damage, so it makes it painfully slow, but really unable to actually kill you. barry's team generally feels like the devs game him kid gloves, his starly evolves really really late and otherwise is just a bit underlevelled throughout

[@Elite4koga]

I remember sweating at the silver fight as a kid that stupid bayleef and its stupid reflect 4:56 not true you need to defeat team rocket in slowpoke well first

[@tortoisecity]

true! I didn't think of this simply because of the fact that you go straight to rockets in the run, my apologies

[@grahamward4556]

The other thing going into the fight in red is that you have a fast text glitch going on and it ends as soon as you heal. So, you're hoping to win this fight without having to switch or heal to keep up the fast text

[@tortoisecity]

yep, and sand attack will really test that strategy of not swapping, it's really rough

[@LucasCarter2]

I’m glad to know rival 2 destroys even pros. As a kid in silver and sapphire rival 2 destroyed me countless times as I never diversified my Pokémon as I was too impatient to train anyone but my starter.

[@tortoisecity]

oh yeah it humbles all of us

[@kvernesdotten]

What is that buzzing sound every now and then? Theres one at 7:17

[@tortoisecity]

not sure what you are referring to sorry, may just be a part of the background music?

[@kvernesdotten]

@@tortoisecity Oh okay that makes sense. It just stands out alot ^^

[@Paul180]

SUBSCRIBED!

[@tortoisecity]

thanks!

[@CausticFoil]

Since these are rival fights, wouldn't it be faster to just lose and skip the battle?

[@tortoisecity]

they're compulsory, you do have to beat them to progress

[@CausticFoil]

@@tortoisecity damn, i'm having a proper mandela effect moment. i swear i lost every rival battle in kanto, johto and hoenn when i was younger but it turns out that's impossible o-o

[@tortoisecity]

happens all the time when I'm looking things up for videos so you're not alone

[@supersaiyanzero386]

I barely survived the emerald one. The nugget bridge one was almost as hard to me but it depends. Yellow I had more options. Then again I grind a bit before rival 2 so yeah must be hard.

[@tortoisecity]

nugget bridge is highly variable just because of the sand and inherent miss chances in gen one

[@Crudeliciousbops]

I always struggled against Whitney, but when I discovered Croconaw's Rage it was rather easy.

[@johnozzmond9728]

Whitney was an absolute monster back when I was ten. I remember once I was down to just the traded Onix and was desperately mud-slapping Miltank's accuracy away so Rollout wouldn't snowball. I think eventually it ran out of Milk Drink or I just lucked into a crit

[@tortoisecity]

whitney is surprisingly not as bad in the speedrun, but the clefairy's metronome is the real threat there

[@ericgrimes341]

It took me a month to beat my rival in gen 2. I was also like 9 yo. I had quilava and that damn dinosaur wrecked my team. My quilava was nearly a typhlosion by the time i finally won.

[@tortoisecity]

that's the only consolation, is that you gain exp by beating the gastly over and over

[@hotwax9376]

In RBY and Emerald, the battle you mentioned is actually the THIRD rival battle.

[@SonikkuAtrue]

The actual second one is optional, so it's not counted. This is the 2nd *mandated* fight

[@tortoisecity]

correct! though the speedruns skip that second fight, so runners just call this one rival 2

[@hotwax9376]

OK, thanks for clarifying.

[@tadferd4340]

Unlike a lot of speedrun filters, these fights are actually hard casually as well.

[@tortoisecity]

no doubt

[@zeromarurb4791]

Shoutouts to May 2 and her Wingull that can instantly end the fight by using Growl

[@tortoisecity]

that dang wingull

[@weedandwater]

I don’t speedrun at all, but rival 2 in GSC was the bane of my existence. I always picked Cyndaquil, so no Mareep in Crystal made it worse. Croconaw was so strong at that point in the game.

[@tortoisecity]

yeah cynda struggles against this fight as well, it's just so hard

[@coin4898]

I used chikorita in a crystal rune a few weeks ago and the rival fight 2 was hard as hell, thay was the first time i used chikorita😂

[@tortoisecity]

yeah the downside to using chikorita is that it does not deal much damage

[@MarvinPowell1]

4:09 - I'm more impressed at you being one of the few PokeTubers who can actually pronounce Rattata correctly and doesn't stupidly call it "ra-tattah."

[@tortoisecity]

I don't have a strong view on how to say it one way or the other to be honest - I think as long as you get the rat part right!

[@razrv3lc]

Okay so this is actually a thing??? I have always dreaded the second rival battle, especially in gen 3. I always picked Mudkip so having to fight Grovyle was miserable there but by the time I get to the third rival fight, I’ve got other stuff to deal with Grovyle lol

[@tortoisecity]

oh yeah common experience to get beat up by rival two in gen 2 and 3 even casually

[@morphstarchangeling8024]

So what I'm getting is that the rival 2 fight in johto is the most annoying boss fight to deal with, while Emerald rival 2 is just actually hard and will end your run if you don't play exactly how you need to play.

[@tortoisecity]

I think that's a good way to sum it up, if you get to rival 2 in rse without the necessary set up items, you will not get past it anytime soon

[@theprismaticsystem2833]

You didn't mention gold's rival 2, after Bugsy when you have hyper cutter us a better spot for it to happen, but having to hope and pray they don't use hyper beam for 2 turns because it is a guaranteed one shot is also pretty a pretty shitty time.

[@tortoisecity]

I'm not super familiar with gold's differences but that sounds bad!

[@ankoku37]

I'm not a speedrunner but it does feel a little vindicating to know that I wasn't just a dumbass when I struggled to beat grovyle as a kid

[@tortoisecity]

yeah grovyle is brutal

[@LinkageAX]

Why does gen 2 run crockanaw and not cyndaquil?

[@tortoisecity]

because totodile gets rage essentially, and you swap to a manipulated Raikou at ecruteak, which is better than both feraligatr and typhlosion, and for getting to that point totodile is faster

[@LinkageAX]

@@tortoisecity ahhh! cheers!

[@fronthal157]

Absolutely wild, people struggle with rivals outside of speedruns?

[@tortoisecity]

some of them yeah

[@LavaCreeperPeople]

Dang

[@IWestrada]

Is the gen 1 rival not rival 3? Rival 2 is optional.

[@tortoisecity]

yeah pretty much because the second rival is optional speedrunners refer to the second mandatory rival fight as rival 2

[@raylast3873]

0:45 Cerulean is only Rival 2 if you didn‘t run into him on Route 22.

[@tortoisecity]

that's true, though the run skips that fight usually

[@catfishbilly6471]

If a move isn’t 100%, it’s only 50%

[@tortoisecity]

if it's 55% but the opponent uses it, it's 100%

[@Gaguiceiro]

Bro I struggled so hard on rival 2 on hgss and emerald 😭

[@tortoisecity]

yeah it's certainly not easy in either game

[@Greyspecies9999]

oh god, GSC rival 2 is bringing me back the PTSD. god i hate gastly and zubat

[@tortoisecity]

gastly is the worst imo