Pole Barn In Floor Radiant Heat Ideas and My Mistakes!

Hey guys,
I got my permit from city and just got it inspected. Gas company turned meter on and it is up and running. This video was shot about 80 hours ago , and the heat has been running non-stop. I have another video update that will be going up shortly with updates. But to sum it up, I have used 60 therms to run 80 hours non-stop and shop is up to 43 degrees. I need to heat all that sand and concrete so it is doing good for being -6 temps in the last few days!
This video shows what I did and my mistakes . Also it was very cold , so I mixed up some words in video as I was freezing ! I zoned out and didn't even think about the condensate line water freezing under my slab , so I don't think nothing burst because it had ways to expand into my floor drains. When first started , it was doing about a 5 gallon bucket every 2 hours , now it does about 5 gallons of condensate every 6-8 hours . That should lessen once temps get hotter inside building. That fiberglass panels work great and will allow easy cleanup and protect the walls if something does decide to leak. The SmartSense Valve from Dormont is a good idea and some protection that actually works. Kit only cost around $18 with fittings and 36" hose. Concentric Vent kit is a good idea for a one hole installation and the intake pipe ( The angled pipe) can be up, down ,sideways, etc.. and the middle pipe is always the intake.
Thanks for watching

[@danieldawson222]

Plumber 40yrs in here. Looking at your system and admiring your work, looks like a simple system,well thought out and clean installation, keep up the good work!

[@JasonYouTube]

Thank you , but the 2 panels were pre-made so can't take credit for those. Every other pipe was my setup . Thanks for watching

[@BK-fy2xi]

Of all the radiant floor heat videos I have watched, that would be a lot, this might be the cleanest install of them all. Even the blue line on your copper is facing the same direction. Good job!

[@JasonYouTube]

Hey thanks for the compliment. Since this was installed on an interior dividing wall, thought might as well show it off. Took a little extra time to makes it look cleaner. Thanks for watching

[@brucesannino6181]

Very good video and journeyman workmanship, journeyman design. I once had a marine surveyor challenge my soft solder work, "Sir are you a pipe fitter?" he said. No but I am a gunsmith and I know how to solder, both soft solder and high temp. AND! if you must use vulgarity to make your point you don't understand the point yourself. Tell 'em to bugger off.

[@JasonYouTube]

Thanks for the advice and watching the videos.

[@JS-nr9wp]

Very clean installation

[@JasonYouTube]

Thanks!

[@h4hir1]

Hi Jason, Just install a small condensate removal pump under your boiler and route the discharge somewhere in plumbing drain. You will never face again frozen pipe

[@JasonYouTube]

Hi, the problem was my pipes are under the concrete so the radiant floor wasn't warmed up and ground was frozen. It was negative degrees out so my pipes were below freezing. Once the radiant heated up , I never had an issue as the ground is around 70 degrees under slab. Joy of living in a frozen state!

[@BryanPAllen]

@@JasonKZbin His suggestion seems like a good idea for those who are still planning unless I’m missing something.

[@JasonYouTube]

In most states code for garages, state that due to chance of explosive gasses in area, you cannot use the home septic system or city sewer due to chance of explosion. You would need a separate septic or a daylight drain. So my system uses the daylight drain , so pipe runs under floor to outside , where it freezes once it hits the cold air. Other places put discharge on outside wall high up and then drips and freezes in a pile outside of wall.

[@DanielinLaTuna]

Hey Jason that’s an elegant, simple system you have. Could you do another video, but where you go slower and explain what each component does. Maybe trace the flow out and back. Also, could you use a pointer stick so you don’t have to move the camera around so much? Thanks

[@1gizmospot]

Thanks for all the info, I'm planning my building now

[@JasonYouTube]

Good luck with your build. Hopefully it goes smoothly. Thanks for watching

[@YouTubeJunkie2023]

Beautiful job

[@JasonYouTube]

Thank you! 😊

[@johnnyb8629]

Im old school, I don't use those new fangled crimp fittings, just sweat that shit together and scotch bright it when your done. typically you run your condensate into the sewer drain but Im guessing you dont have sewer run to that building. In walk in freezers we run the condensate out the wall and wrap it with armaflex insulation and heat strips to keep it from freezing. I try not to run anything in concrete especially refer lines. The best idea was the plastic wall panels but I bet people who sweat everything like myself would scorch the shit outta those panels.

[@JasonYouTube]

I made sure to only use the push fittings on the pieces that may need to be replaced in the future. The other joints I just soldered. If you look at the panel supply and return pipes to manifold, I used the push connectors so I can slide the whole piece out if need to replace manifold or lower heating panel. I could of sweated it, but like you stated, I would have to melt the joint to disassemble and would burn the panels. If they leak, I will just sweat them. I have a septic system and if I wanted a toilet, then the city would make me put a new separate mound system as they wouldn't allow me to tap into house septic. So for 13-15K , I can use the trees as my john and run to the house for number 2! lol Thanks for the comment

[@anexpertateverything4816]

If it’s inspected you have to have an acid neutralizer before going into slab, drainage or outside with condensation.

[@JasonYouTube]

@@anexpertateverything4816 My pH of condensate is around 5.5 , so it is slightly acidic but same as reverse osmosis water system. Also at pH 5.5 , most things in nature are at that ( lawn, plants, our skin, etc) so that is considered plant Neutral and best for plants and grass. I didn't need a neutralizer and my pipes are all PVC, so it will not hurt anything in long run. Need to check with your local county for codes as some don't require it. Otherwise you are correct, NY and other states require it. Thanks for reply

[@anexpertateverything4816]

Jason I remember when you could build your own. Unfortunately most areas now require a UL listing on them.

[@JasonYouTube]

@@anexpertateverything4816 Thankfully Minnesota lets you do your own work and they just inspect it. I did electrical, radiant and everything besides assembly/concrete myself. Only way to save a bunch of money. I know some states won't allow homeowners to touch gas lines.

[@georgefolgers8731]

Nice system, great video, could you do a little in depth video of your system, . component by component , and the heating unit manufacturer and btu , thanks for your video

[@JasonYouTube]

The system is using a 120k btu condensing Modulating tankless water heater . I paid more for the company name brand but they just rebranded a Takagi T-H3M-DV-N High Efficiency Indoor Tankless Condensing Water Heater. I didn't know that or else I could of saved $400 . I will doing a video this weekend with the tankless heater and how it works, Pros/cons. Thanks for watching

[@georgefolgers8731]

@@JasonKZbin thanks , yes in the lower part of NY people are into what are called combi units - around $ 2,500 - $ 2,800 navien , 150,000 btu gas , More importantly could you explain the circulation pumps as I see two, By the way very meticulous work. The effort was worth it !! Any explanation of the components and how they work will be greatly appreciated.

[@JasonYouTube]

@@georgefolgers8731 I will do an in-depth video in the future, time is tight at the moment

[@benmoroz3278]

A dry well and piping below your frost line might solve the freezing issues.

[@MNhockeydude35]

based on his accent he lives where I live and our frost line is 36"...

[@williamrobinson9653]

Jason very nice install. I have in floor heat in my barn in northern Michigan and have been using a traditional propane 40gal. Hot water tank for heating. Problem is the tanks only last for about 6 or 7 years then must be replaced,,, just installed my 3rd tank so I'm at about 15 or 16 years in to it. I leave my heat on all winter long. So as to when we use the barn it's warm ( 55* ) burn's 300 gallons of propane each winter. I would like to upgrade to a boiler like yours what is the best one in your opinion which one do you have.

[@JasonYouTube]

Mine is a Takagi , so for a liquid propane, I would recommend T-H3M-DV-P . Fairly cheap , like $600 . BUT you will have about 4-5 gal a day of water condensation , so make sure to take that into consideration . You could empty a 5 gal bucket a day or run a line out. But it drips so in cold weather freezes ( see my video on it! )

[@nono-mk7jg]

good video man! live and learn

[@JasonYouTube]

You only learn by your mistakes in life and you get better each time! Now if someone can't learn from their mistakes, then they are doomed in life. lol Thanks for watching

[@nono-mk7jg]

@@JasonKZbin Agrree to Agree bro!

Well... you're heating the slab but the door was wide open with 8°F outside?

[@kenmatzkejr3680]

Nice Job! was wondering where you got your fiberglass white panels from

[@JasonYouTube]

Thanks, just any big box store.

[@ripperwrestling6587]

It looks like FRP (Fire Retardant Panel) It's the stuff you see in gas station and some McDonald's bathrooms. Works great and can be cleaned very easily.

[@tomquick2594]

I have a camp that is 28x36 and have 4 loops in one zone so I guess 1200 feet of pex. Would I need a mixing valve or is that water heater able to be set at say 100 degrees or so ?

[@rickss69]

Do you think PEX pipe would make any difference? I know it is less prone to freeze damage. Hope it works out for you with all that work.

[@JasonYouTube]

Pex would expand more, but the pipe should be fine. Both ends were mainly open so if the water freezes it will just expand. Basically same concept as a water hose disconnected, water will just expand to least resistance so will go out both ends.

[@510Redneck]

@@JasonKZbin Unless it freezes at the ends first and then the middle. :) Clean asf setup btw

[@kathleendircks5577]

That’s what I was going to say, all that copper and plastic in the slab. A wood pellet boiler outside the barn as a back up wouldn’t hurt either. I’m planning on doing something like this too. I switched to ipex in my modular home and I’m converting the buried well lines to the house after a too many frozen winters.

[@iwantosavemoney]

Seem like you have a bunch of loops as far as one loop how many quart feet will it heat and how long roughy are your loops thank you for you time sir

[@JasonYouTube]

If your not doing a Thermal mass setup then you would use less tubing. Each run / loop is about 285 - 290 ft but since it is thermal mass and basically heating about 16-18" of concrete equivalent ( 5 inch concrete and roughly 12-13" of sand which has thermal mass heat rating almost to concrete) I am using about 4700 ft tubing for 3200 sq ft slab footprint

[@tomquick2594]

What is your pressure you are running in the closed loop system? And how do you get the correct pressure in the system?

[@JasonYouTube]

It depends but I run 15 psi, some boiler systems run in the 9psi. You use an external water pump to pressurize it when you are filling the system with fluid and you shut off return to external pump

[@Derekmartin20]

The Gas Regulator coming the building? You can't have one inside any building. If it goes bad everything in your propane tank will end up in your shop and level it.

[@JasonYouTube]

The inside one is a secondary regulator, much like on furnaces and natural gas stoves that are located on the furnace/stove which are inside a building. In an ideal situation, would be better outside but some things are designed with regulators needing to be inside

[@Derekmartin20]

@@JasonKZbinI was in propane for about 12 years just never seen that. Kinda freaked me out lol. If you got it under control I'm good. I've built a post frame house and getting ready to get started on the floor started. Just finished the plumbing.

[@JasonYouTube]

@@Derekmartin20 I think the new regulators are designed better so if they fail, it automatically closes as a fail safe. I'm not positive but most stoves have regulators built in , so they must of fixed leakage problems. But it still happens as you hear of ng explosions. Luckily I don't live in it! Thanks for watching

[@jongardner6959]

I'm curious if it's possible to use the same tankless water heater for the house fixtures as well as for the radiant heat or will I need separate water heaters?

[@JasonYouTube]

You would need a combi tankless heater. Keeps drinkable and radiant water separate from each other

[@danieldawson222]

Been doing a lot of research on that myself and I am an experienced plumber. They make tankless heaters with a feature That also is compatible with a radiant heat system, Noritz makes a combi boiler that Made for that application.

[@squeekhobby4571]

I am planning for a pole barn house. Do you recommend Hvac over an insulated raised foundation floor? Or you recommend concrete floor?

[@JasonYouTube]

I take it you don't live in a Tornado state? Depending on your area, see what other traditional homes are using. If your in a cold climate, then radiant floor will be better and then in summer get an AC air handler. Save you money in heating over HVAC

[@squeekhobby4571]

Jason : thanks for the response. I live in Pennsylvania.

[@Ramdodge582]

expansion tank should be nipple up, otherwise you get air stuck in the tank.

[@JasonYouTube]

That is a Myth. Just google it and expansion tanks can be installed in any direction. Also check manufacturer install notes as they will state any direction. If the bladder leaks then it may fill with water so you will have to take that into consideration when supporting it. Maybe back 25 years ago, that statement was true, but now it doesn't matter

[@Ramdodge582]

@@JasonKZbin If you say so www.hpacmag.com/features/expansion-tank-dos-and-donts/

[@JasonYouTube]

@@Ramdodge582 There are over 40 articles and manufactures installation guides that state it does not matter. I can show you an article link that says Elvis is still alive and living with Aliens! That articles states horizontal only adds stress on components , like I said before, just have to secure it. Also think of this, there will always be air in tank even when psi is zero. You will always have air in tank unless you use a vacuum. If you have positive air pressure , doesn't matter what way stem is installed, it will be forced out to equalize it to atmospheric pressure. Do you fill up your tires only when the valve stem is at the highest position on tire? It doesn't matter , as an expansion tank is a rubber tire inside a steel tank.

[@JasonYouTube]

I need to be more detailed in answer , so the air bladder is filled in tank to 15 psi which pushes the bladder against the water. When the pump turns off , the air bladder cushions the shock and also when it heats up in a closed system, the water expands and expansion tank takes up that . When a closed system is used, you purge all air out of system and you have a micro bubbler to remove any bubbles left in system right after your heat source. There should be ZERO air in any component after you purge system correctly. So there should be no air stuck in tank. Only if a component fails, then air will be introduced in a closed system that could be trapped, but you would need to purge system again to remove that. Yes, the expansion tank could leak slowly but then the air would be located at highest point in system , which is the micro-bubbler . That is why most manufacturers don't care how the expansion tank is mounted , it doesn't affect the system and if it does leak, the system will need to be purged and faulty component will need to be replaced. I didn't know if you were talking about the air bladder air or air in system outside bladder, because if you purge it correctly, there will be zero air in system so it couldn't be stuck

[@wr6392]

1:25 It's 8° outside? Then why is your door wide open? Might be part of the problem

[@JasonYouTube]

I didn't have my lights installed so the only light for video was that door and garage door windows

[@pathfinder10148]

why didnt you use a water/antifreeze mix?...you could have done a 50/50 and your pipes wouldnt have froze

[@JasonYouTube]

I use Hercules cryo-tek 100 antifreeze in pipes good to -20 , but what froze was the condensate from my Heater. Since it is a condensing high efficiency , it extracts heat from water vapor. So my floor wasn't above freezing and the condensate slowly froze as it does about 5 gallons of condensate per 10 hours.

[@johnwilimczyk4188]

why did you mount expansion tank sideways big problem with air trapped in that orientation should always be mounted upright no trapped air

[@JasonYouTube]

Expansion tanks can be mounted either way or at any angle , its a misunderstanding that it will trap air. If you do a google search , manufacturers state that they can be mounted any way as long as it is properly supported to relieve stress on fittings. Mounting horizontal requires mounting hardware to relieve stress, as you can tell by mine, it isn't exactly horizontal. The factory installed these that way , but I may need to add another strap to keep it from stressing my fitting.

[@ignusa749]

do a condensate reservoir pump and run the line along with the external vent. if you insulate it with the pipe then the warm from the pipe will keep the condensate line ice free. the alt to run out side is to run to a drain stack or floor drain... also watch those outside vents in cold temps those can frost over and stop the exhaust from venting and fault code the boiler to want a manual reset!!.. bad deal if you do not have a temperature alarm for the system that can wifi email you when you are away from the shop.

[@JasonYouTube]

Good Ida, I ran mine in the floor drain that is a 3" pvc pipe that goes outside. I put a cap with holes in it to prevent mice from living in pipe but the holes froze up on me. So I had to cut pipe down and insulate around it with 2" Foam and now it doesn't freeze. When I cut the pipe only the last 1 inch was frozen and water came running out so the inside heat only extended about 1 1/2 ft outside to keep pipe thawed. Fun living in freezing temps

[@danielfronc4304]

@@JasonKZbin I guess you forgot that the weak point in a chain is it's weakest or smallest link. You reduced the condensate's ability to run free from freezing when, after putting in a 3 inch diameter PVC pipe you reduced the egress ability to that of the size of the holes that you put in the 3 inch PVC cap. Forest for the trees, forest for the trees. However, I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know. It's meant for your viewers and thank you very much for sharing your learning moment with us all.

[@JasonYouTube]

@@danielfronc4304 The condensate was a steady drip and would drip for 6-8 hours , so it would freeze and was making a frozen pool. I thought I could get the cap to hold the heat in to prevent it from freezing as it only needed small hole for the drip. But no matter what, where the hot meets cold, it freezes. So I finally just built an enclosure around drain pipe and it solved the problem

[@skynet000001]

Jason which manifold did you use? i want that same one.

[@JasonYouTube]

It's a Hydro-smart but they re-brand a name brand company. It is actually a better deal through Hydro-smart

[@langlymcmanus1194]

Why didn't you turn it on before it got down to 8 deg

[@JasonYouTube]

I got it finally installed during the winter , so I had to turn it on during the cold weather or wait a season

[@langlymcmanus1194]

@@JasonKZbin ok I knew something wasn't right.

[@Indiansmoke1]

You need more btu of heat. But 43 is not bad for -6.

[@JasonYouTube]

That was on warmup. It can be -14 and it will stay at 57 degrees. Coldest it ever got was 55 degrees but it was a 2 day stretch of -20 with wind chill of -46. The water heater ran for 2 days but never got below 55 degrees with thermostat at 57. Wind really takes the heat away

[@JasonYouTube]

This Friday, Saturday ,Sunday and monday is going to be in the -15 at night in Minnesota, but will be a toasty 57 in the pole barn. Maybe I will do a video on it . Thanks for watching

[@RJ-lk5pj]

When you poured your concrete pad was there and ground insulation or reflecting barriers used to direct the heat ? Or insulation used to create a void between the ground and the pad ? I’d like to do this.. great video and pointers.

[@JasonYouTube]

No insulation as that would create a smaller thermal mass. Radiant heat will disperse outward and upwards and a little down , so around edges have 2 ft down and 2 ft over to prevent frost creeping and heat escaping. Also my pex is about 12 inches below concrete in a sand bed. So I have over 4700 ft of pex heating the sand which acts like concrete in heat retention. Just like how commercial buildings do it. I have some videos on laying the pex so you can see how I did it

[@johnwoofter5744]

Outdoor wood boiler no pressure system run your pex tubing in your concrete. One line in make your loops one line out. Set your boiler at 180 degrees. Gets rid of all those gadgets on the wall. Much simpler system

[@JasonYouTube]

You can only do around 300 ft of loops or else their would be no pressure differential to move the liquid. Also if you want individual zones / areas then you need multiple pumps. You need some pressure to move the heated liquid around or else the liquid would boil in your boiler . Usually it is around 5-10 psi to get it moving. It would be a simpler system but it doesn't work that way! . Simple way is to think of your example and use a garden hose with water. Heat up a section of that garden hose and the water will not circulate , you need a pump creating negative/positive pressure to move that liquid.

[@johnwoofter5744]

@@JasonKZbin yes Jason you would need a circulating pump. My central boiler has two pumps. And my system works great with none of the gadgets on it. Heat house garage and my hot water Gor the house

[@JasonYouTube]

@@johnwoofter5744 Ya you can do that system but I have over 4700 ft of tubing as it is a Thermal Mass setup. You have an expansion tank , like any water system . You don't really need manifolds in your system, but in mine I have different flow to the garage door loops to offset the heat loss from the slab at the garage doors. ( My slab thermal break is about a foot outside of doors to keep them from freezing up). So most people systems can do what your doing and not go with manifolds, but in mine I fine tune it to offset the heat loses.

[@terrymoline8260]

Looks nice but as a heating contractor that concentric vent under that soft is a proublem unless its none vented 3' on each side of where it goes outside.

[@MotivatedMetalworks]

What's your fuel cost to run this?

[@JasonYouTube]

I got it almost fully enclosed last March and my bill was around $80 for NG . I will be doing updates on my monthly heating cost and I am located in Minnesota so it will be higher then most areas. I expect around $100 a month for 3200 sq ft , 12 ft ceiling and 2 large garage doors. I know others that they run $130 for a 1300 sq ft shop , but my shop has R-25 in walls and R49 for ceiling

[@MotivatedMetalworks]

@@JasonKZbin I'm in the Brainerd area, and in the process of building a similar sized shop with LP backup for geothermal. It'll be interesting to compare notes as our projects progress.

[@JasonYouTube]

@@MotivatedMetalworks Main thing is the insulation and filling in any air gaps to prevent heat loss. Under slab insulation may not be that important as leaving it out creates a bigger heat sink and in summer you may benefit from the earth "Coolness" to aid in Air conditioning. I have plumbed electrical for 2 Ac units but didn't need them this year. As you know, we had temps that felt like 115 this summer , and my shop was still 71 degrees ( Opened doors only a few times) but humidity was high! had to get a dehumidifier , but cheaper then running ac unit

[@02337755]

So funny lotta shit talkers commenting

[@edtillier4421]

ditch the shark bites, learn to solder!

[@JasonYouTube]

I soldered most of the pipes except where it joins a piece that may need changing in the future . Boiler, manifolds , etc have the sharkbites and the prefab panels have it where the 2 join as those were factory. So the parts that may need replacing in the future have sharkbites for easy removal . Thanks for watching

[@soggybottomboys2792]

Well bud I guess we know your not a plumber and Definitely not a steam fitter!

[@JasonYouTube]

Doing plumbing isn't that hard. I have put in water heaters, geothermal systems, etc, . Now I haven't done it for years as a career so my sweat joints may not look pretty but they sure hold! You know some of the trade people aren't the brightest , but after repeated attempts they get good! BUT I have done electrical and probably one of the elevators you ride in the twin cities and burbs I have hand my hand in making those run . Is that good or bad? LOL

[@soggybottomboys2792]

@@JasonKZbin that’s cool I’m not talking about your sweat joints it was more intended to target your lack of ill thoughtfully routing of the piping in front of your header. On another note live in va and won’t be out there for at least the next 5 years (the course of my apprenticeship)

[@JasonYouTube]

@@soggybottomboys2792 The header do you mean the manifolds? Those pipes I used the sharkbite fittings so I can pull the pipes out to the left side in order to change the manifolds or the pumps . Otherwise those 2 main panels were prefabbed .