PoliticsJOE vs The Spectator on doctors' strikes | LBC Cross Question

How do you solve the junior doctors' pay dispute?
PoliticsJOE's Oli Dugmore: "Tax the rich, tax them until the pips squeak."
The Spectator's Kate Andrews: "These are not serious pay demands."
Also on the panel with Iain Dale to discuss NHS pay is the Green Party's Natalie Bennett and ResPublica's Phillip Blond.
Listen to the full show on Global Player: l-bc.co/ListenNow
#IainDale #nhs #LBC
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[@samdavies6325]

Why - pray tell - is an American (land of the medically bankrupt) allowed a platform to tell us what she thinks about our healthcare system? These think tanks need to be outlawed.

[@richardgallagher4880]

The left have become full on nathzis🤣🤣

[@brettnethercott7369]

Amen

[@Ricky_Baldy]

Not outlawed, ignored.

[@DavidGraeberWasRight]

Tufton and or Grafton street pay her to lie on TV

[@samdavies6325]

@@Ricky_Baldy I would agree if ministers also ignored them - but alas - they do not. Legislation is the only way to deal with their toxic influence on our country.

[@zigowl1193]

That American girl was very rude and was always interrupting. Please don't invite her again.

[@geraldhornsby]

Kate Andrews has strongly advocated for an insurance-funded privatised healthcare system in the past. Her rhetoric is coloured by this. In "conversations" like this, the host should stop her interrupting everyone else when they're trying to speak. Oli Dugmore (Politics Joe) is right - how much we spend is a political decision. And Natalie Bennett is right - our whole country is one of the most unhealthy in the western world. Deal with the other issues (housing, eating, pollution0 first to create a healthier population and put less stress on the healthcare system.

[@casperwallace9685]

She has a reason to be there, the tories wish to privatise the NHS, Iain is a Tory so gives her a platform. Ever since seh arrived in UK before Brexit she has been pushing to privatise the NHS. She is there for a reason.... never be fooled.

[@aleph8888]

Are Europeans copying the NHS? Look at european healthcare systems. It’s the authoritarian Left that want to shut people up because they haven’t had a new idea in 50 years.

[@Dynasty1818]

She's talking truth and you don't like it, that's why.

[@Anduril1974]

@@geraldhornsby Spot on!

[@henryburton6529]

How much do we think this lady gets paid for attacking the NHS? More than any NHS employee

[@DaDonMega]

And an American by the sounds of it too, just to rub salt into the wounds

[@tallulahvision2691]

I was just thinking exactly the same thing. What a shameful excuse for a human being.

[@Dynasty1818]

Oh look another pathteically unfounded, unproven cynical "insight" from a moronic LBC listener.

[@Alex-mj5dv]

She’s not a public sector employee..

[@gingersteve]

@@Alex-mj5dv that's not really the point here, is it?

[@YouTurkey1]

You know things are bad in the UK when 25k is considered well paid

[@richardcook1987]

25isnt well paid 😂😂

[@Lee-bv6iv]

@@richardcook1987 That is precisely OP's point.

[@cameronclarkhull]

I get paid £23k and live on my own in the North... I only just cope and budget wisely. Imagine having £25k a year and live down south or worse in London. You simply can't survive

[@richardgallagher4880]

@@cameronclarkhull I've got a feeling you caused 10% inflation

[@danw5760]

​@@cameronclarkhull I was on minimum wage in London for a long while, Im still here

[@NoJusticeMTG]

Kate is another IEA think tank goon there to manufacture consent in favour of the super rich. she can kick rocks

[@mariogmajner6549]

Probably works for Labour.

[@McGirtUK]

​@@mariogmajner6549 nope, ex IEA so more in line with Truss

[@mariogmajner6549]

@@McGirtUK *No great difference between Labour and Conservative policies, says Institute of Economic Affairs* THERE is no real difference between the policies of the Labour and Conservative parties, according to the director general of the Institute of Economic Affairs. Mark Littlewood told GB News: “It is extraordinary, I mean, I'm finding it really difficult to work out what the actual policy differences are between the Labour front bench and the Conservative government at the moment. "People might take a view on who you think the more competent managers are, who’s better on television, or the rest of it. But in terms of policy, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of difference between the Conservatives and Labour. “In some areas, you might argue that the Labour Party is actually more pro-market.” In an interview with Tom Harwood on GB News, he continued: “If you look at tax policy, I think there's virtually no difference between the two parties. “The Labour Party has literally shadowed the various decisions that the Conservatives have made and unmade over recent weeks, both under the Truss administration, and now the Sunak administration.

[@MrBigSeanno]

​@@mariogmajner6549 brain-dead plumber.

[@McGirtUK]

@@mariogmajner6549 you mean aside from the Truss/Kwarteng budget that Kate (via the Spectator), the IEA (Littlewood himself) were extremely enthusiastic about, but was vehemently opposed by Labour, that almost tanked the UK pensions market? Ok mate!

[@stephenoneill5829]

From a woman paid VERY WELL to shill for the tories. Over 100k per year I would guess

[@henryburton6529]

And the rest

[@chrisdickens4268]

She clearly enjoys it too... Nice to see her getting fat, hopefully she'll suffer as she gets older

[@nuvisionprinting]

And still manages to be the worst dressed there.

[@clivecosta-correa2102]

Probably multiple sources of income.

[@miras2222]

Doctors working days and nights saving people's lives are paid much less then Kate is paid for babbling nonsens on TV How dare she patronizing doctors doing REAL work for much less then she is paid for spewing talking points given by her puppetmasters

[@fireinthelake]

How is Kate being allowed to dictate this conversation? Inequality in this country is greater than it's ever been and greater than most other developed countries, not everyone has suffered cuts over the last few yrs!

[@col.hertford9855]

Kate is the problem, not doctors

[@fireinthelake]

@Steve Aaron @Steve Aaron oh well thank f*ck for that, such a relief living conditions today are better than during the industrial revolution, ya goon

[@theSixthInternationalist]

@@steveaaron6659 yeah but in the last 20-30 years, it's not reducing that much anymore in fact it's seemingly going backwards

[@charanjeetjawanda3827]

She works for thr IEA think-tank who believe the NHS should be scrapped for Privitised healthcare.

[@casperwallace9685]

Join the dots..... she has been pushing to have the NHS privatised, she works now for the Spector supposedly better than the IEA, who we don't know who funds them. Iain has wanted to be a Tory for years but just couldn't get his foot in the door. Tories want to privatise the NHS. Iain gives her a platform. He then tells on one in his introductions.... so she just looks like a normal guest...... Its like painting with numbers.

[@God_is_love_believe]

The Spectator is dishonest, unhelpful and truly disgusting.

[@stevemitchell1454]

And too influential.

[@jeffsimon9594]

Excellent pearl-clutching there

[@mandyrobinson8929]

Agreed

[@AM2K2]

Why don't you try refute her arguments?

[@leroysimon5692]

👍🏾

[@ShaunieDale]

Kate Andrews carefully skirting around the fact that the billionaires who groomed her have made vast increases in their wealth in the last 20 years, in fact by 73% since 2020. They are careful to keep the framing within the scope of the working/middle class where most have lost out. It’s a very “don’t look up” piece of gaslighting. These are the people that need tax rises, not the rest of us.

[@verystripeyzebra]

Billionaires; the unaffordable drain on society.

[@DoktorLorenz]

That's why we need to start taxing the assets of the rich properly where they park their money, this is one of the reasons why house prices are sky high because they can outbid and hoover up the housing stock to turn us all into never ending renters whilst the rich class own more and more the assets like in the old days.

[@maheshunlimited]

"Let me finish my point" proceeds to interrupt everyone else.

[@marksc111]

She's absolutely vile

[@James_36]

not one of them brought up an intelligent response

[@danielcrafter9349]

​@@James_36- lol none of them could get a word in! I guess you have an intelligent response, then?

[@solidzaku2]

As an American whose life was saved thanks to a "socialized" medical service as a Sailor, I think it's beyond the evil of the devil himself for her to advocate for Americanizing the NHS.

[@Coelacanth1]

It is known the government has employed American medical insurance professionals in the ruinning of the NHS

[@paulfairbairn1066]

Agreed 👍

[@johnharding6394]

Striking doctors have signed the hypocrite oath and NOT the hippocratic oath

[@James_36]

my nan would now be dead if she relied upon socialized NHS.... see how that works?

[@patrikvavro1611]

She hasn't mentioned American healthcare once in this clip, so I don't know what makes you think she's advocating for "Americanizing the NHS". She was comparing the NHS to social insurance healthcare systems in countries like Germany and the Netherlands which are far superior to the British single-payer healthcare model.

[@Lynn.hot.legs.peters]

As a Cancer Patient I back Doctors and Nurses 100%. For My Children & Grandchildren They will never forgive us if we lose the NHS. !

[@James_36]

my nan would have died if she had not paid 100 quid to see a consultant... so, I am not impressed with the NHS for so many reasons. Do not be cultist

[@BH-2]

@@James_36for people who support the doctors on this pay row, they should understand how much is spent on the NHS every year, how much was wasted, and how much goes to clinical staff. Then they would know it’s not just a pay rise that’s needed , it’s getting rid of the £100k Plus diversity staff for example and cut wastage. No body dares criticise the NHS and therefore it’s getting more and more mismanaged. Doctors and nurses not being paid enough is a symptom of mismanagement

[@DanKeatis]

Hope you're doing as well as possible, Peter!

[@wayneford2481]

An MP ON £45 an hour ,a cabinet minister £60 an hour plus expenses. A 35 % rise for doctors = £19.60 an hour .

[@Alex-mj5dv]

Many, many more doctors than MPs.

[@italianstallion9170]

try and be a cabinet minister if you can.

[@adamgoulder8019]

@@italianstallion9170 easy job judging by the muppets in the cabinet at the moment.

[@richardcook1987]

If you think that's what doctors actually earn that's not true. Night pay, 20% pension, unsociable hours, overtime at like £50 an hour.

[@thefirm4606]

@@italianstallion9170 well I’m certainly educated enough to be an mp, not enough to treat a person

[@ATtravel666]

4:25 Kate Andrews, formerly of the Institute of Economic Affairs, says "everybody has lost out". That is not true. The ultra wealthy who fund the Tory Party and shady think tanks like the Institute of Economic Affairs have seen their wealth grow under Tory rule. It's the vast majority of ordinary people who the the ultra wealthy leach off have seen things get worse.

[@verystripeyzebra]

Exactly. Billionaires; an unaffordable tax burden on society.

[@Dozdaman]

I'm a relatively recently graduated brit - 7 years in the work force now - living abroad (netherlands) working in the private sector, and i've not lost out. I can't imagine being told after going through medical schooling that i'd be earning 25k, I just wouldn't do it. If you want to chronically overwork very highly motivated and smart staff you have to pay for it, they've had enough.

[@Alex-mj5dv]

Well unfortunately.. the super rich will always win. Pareto’s Principle. It’s how much opportunity and wealth they can help the rest of us create with their wealth and influence and ownership of corporations .. that’s our system at present and unfortunately nothing has brought more - globally - out of abject (real) poverty more effectively than capitalism. Socialism is more a folly for the dreamers and intellectuals of already consolidated nations.. and where it’s been put in to practice it’s been disastrous in the 20th century, and is open to as much abuse as the worst parts of capitalism are.. not one answer is the full answer, and no system will ever be perfect. A more nuanced and level form of capitalism- which preserves the dynamic profession it undoubtedly fosters - is the best we can hope for in the mid term future

[@chatham43]

....and it would grow under Labour rule....so your point is what....?

[@robertwinslade3104]

​@@Alex-mj5dv "Pareto's principle" is absolute pretentious nonsense which people defending the mass accumulation of wealth by an increasingly tiny number of people like to spout to make it sound like their arguments are intelligent or logical when they are anything but

[@_od_7825]

That wasn’t a debate, it was the usual Kate Andrew’s show where she tells everyone they’re wrong and doesn’t really let them get a word in. She’s been discredited enough times now. As usual she doesn’t actually put anything forward, she’ll try and claim that if doctors want any kind of pay rise then the NHS needs to be made private because the NHS is unaffordable. If they do that healthcare becomes unaffordable and the economy as a whole will suffer as productivity goes down the drain as people end up sick more often with chronic conditions and life expectancy will decrease. The basics for the NHS still apply as much as they did when it was founded. It’s been the constant meddling of governments that keep making it worse. Go back to the basics of what the NHS is meant to do and meant to prevent. Stop selling bits off to private providers, this isn’t about making money it is about ensuring that there is an efficient, effective and productive work force. It pays for itself. If it is working properly and people are responsible about their healthcare, don’t eat so much junk, make sure that they keep active and keep some things at bay as a result the NHS doesn’t come under so much pressure in the first place. It’s an excellent service and principle that has been consistently eroded for decades now. It needs to stop.

[@thoughtfulprofessor4198]

She needs to be called out every time

[@alexandrailubs2945]

It will be nice to know her salary

[@susanmorgan3104]

I agree with everything documented here.

[@DoktorLorenz]

Well she's worked for the Adam Smith Institute & Institute of Economic Affairs, doesn't that tell you everything you need to know about dark money lobby groups who fund her.

[@alanhat5252]

@@alexandrailubs2945 which salary? She's working for several lobby groups, including "Republicans Overseas", a selection of health"care" lobbies & Tufton Street institutions. And she almost certainly gets "appearance fees".

[@jordanbooth4470]

Ah yes, Kate Andrews of the IEA, who were the primary backers of Liz Truss’s economics. How about we just completely disregard everything she says

[@maf74]

I've suffered significant health issues in recent years - still under the doctors. And I support the doctors over people who know nothing of what NHS staff have to endure. Long live the NHS, sod what governments have done to it.

[@richardgallagher4880]

Ye must of the far left are falling apart. It's the weight of the lies and all the dead.

[@Dinvan]

*People working underpaid and over worked* "Lets not pretend this is for patients" Yeah, I always want the nurses and doctors to be underpaid, best way to get the best people for the job. I mean, who actually needs money anyway? The people performing heart surgeries? Radiologists? Diagnostics specialists? Pfft, You can just just use a food bank. People go to university for 3-8 years to study medicine so they can build a life time career helping to or directly saving lives and then they want a fair wage? How selfish. Vote conservative! Lets make sure no one gets a pay rise...or pay!

[@richardgallagher4880]

They supported the el down that killed 407k. They should be endentured.

[@dougbritton3239]

You are so correct Lynn lets vote more Tories who are on £85k + so that no British worker gets a fair wage rise ever again !! 👌👌👌👌😊😊😊😊👍👍

[@ephre]

@@dougbritton3239 have you seen the Tory consulting job videos? some journalists set up fake job interviews for tories to speak explicitly about consulting fees. They are gunning for a ⅓ of a junior doctor's wage for 10 days work.

[@juliegregory3900]

Mr Mogg thinks holiday pay shouldnt be a right, what next sick pay?

[@alaingSEO]

A-fucking-men

[@denisdaly1708]

I live in Ireland. Our doctors are paid between 2 and 4 times that of the UK, and this is publically funded. So it is possible. Invest in your NHS, and public organisations

[@countfosco8535]

But here in the UK we try to get everything done on the cheap. It is our Anglo-Saxon philosophy.

[@chatham43]

....do you know how much as a % of GDP is ploughed into the NHS....??!

[@BENTWOONEZERO]

Just checked,there is very little differance.

[@okuolijide7]

England alone has over 10x the doctors in Ireland, and the 35% pay increase junior doctors demand comes out to an average £20,000 payrise per person which is insane.

[@NabeelKhan-lx2ly]

moving to ireland

[@bauer9101]

I used to work for a recruitment company supplying the NHS. The money is definitely there.

[@garydixon4290]

They spend 3 billion a year on agency staff the people who own these agency probably donate to the conservative party .So there's plenty of money like you said

[@justadude8369]

@@garydixon4290 Ashcroft owns a few of the agencies

[@countfosco8535]

NHS is the way forward.

[@trustmeimaphysiologist]

I find it absolutely staggering that anyone would need to explain it so someone on the political Right that *market forces* are dictating that my clinical colleagues aren't being paid enough. We paid them enough in 2008 and then we elected people who decided not to. Then we kept electing them.

[@richardgallagher4880]

🤭 remain just caused 10% inflation. It's staggering you need that explained to you.

[@bengoacher4455]

As someone on the right, market forces don't dictate doctors pay because the NHS has a virtual monopoly on healthcare jobs in the UK. The truth is the reliance on taxpayer funded, unlimited, free at point of use healthcare, is what's resulted in healthcare workers being paid terrible wages. What we need is to break up the NHS, introduce true competition into the healthcare sector and then let the market decide how much doctors earn, like they do in America, where the average doctor earns 10x the average British doctor, and the average nurse earns more than the average British Doctor. It is impossible, in a socialised healthcare system, for doctors to be paid their true value to society. End of the day when someone who earns £20k a year needs £100k worth of treatment after say, a road traffic collision, thats their entire tax contribution for 50 years taken up. The current model is unsustainable and simply doesn't work. We need to reform the NHS to break free from the socialised model and unlock the true potential of our healthcare workers.

[@crozwayne]

@@bengoacher4455 there is a reason for that excessive cost and it's all part of humanity's slide into oblivion, where medics are new gods, they're not, most are just highly skilled operators, what we do need is for AI to perform medicine, and within 10 years we will have complete automated open-heart surgery, AI doing the job of the GPs, all can go. No, the real deal is engineering, without them, there would be no hip joints, no MRI scanners, not even wheelchairs and no AI, and yet we do not pay them what they're worth. And we need to privatise the NHS immediately, and alcoholics and smokers should be made to pay far far more for their treatment over other, more worthy people. There is no "true potential of our healthcare workers" AI is thankfully gonna put them out of business and at a vastly cheaper cost!

[@DubSalvation]

@@bengoacher4455 so basically you mean the UK should enter a model similar to the US in respect to health insurance. Didnt have to write a whole life story mate.

[@jumbuck2846]

It’s a public company there is no market

[@edmills9160]

She says everybody has lost out - how about CEOs, footballers, MPs, the superrich. Have they lost out?

[@swanchamp5136]

I bet she hasn't lost out

[@nathanu6759]

The supermarkets are making nearly 100% more profits through the years 2021 and 2022

[@masquarra]

Let us not forget that entitled monarchy

[@TrequartistaFM]

What have footballers got to do with the healthcare system 😂😂 All I’ve seen in the comments is a lot of whinging and ad homs with no actual solutions

[@GennySavastone]

Ed I hate people like you, you literally want to tax people more because they did better economically than you in life. Boo woo, go get another job if you want more money

[@tarlochankaliroy1030]

Has MPs pay degraded similarly to doctor's pay over the same period, i.e., 2008 to 2023?

[@lonelyone69]

no they actually got a 6000 pound pay rise this year...

[@Alex-mj5dv]

There are many, many fewer MPs than junior doctors and nurses. It’s just maths and budget availability. I think both should have pay rises - doctors (junior level) and nurses to gain parity, and MPs - and yes I know this is an unpopular opinion - to sort the wheat from the chaff, and stop them relying on second incomes and other work. Hopefully a higher salary for MPs, and making it a real competency based full time JOB, will cut swathes of incompetence we have on both sides of the spectrum. If MPs are paid the average director level salary (£150k ish) for London and the SE, perhaps over time the calibre of MP will increase, and they won’t need to go grovelling to fake Korean firms for £10k per day on the side..

[@nom8]

Everyone has lost out? I don't think mp's have lost anything, they have gained a lot by the looks of it 🤨

[@robbaker1841]

Ollie hit the nail on the head!

[@DEVIL4POSTER]

"tax them til the pips squeak" 😂💪

[@user-se6rv5rr6i]

How dare you use the name of PoliticsJOE clickbait me to watch the drivels of Kate Andrews!?

[@ryanmatheson5137]

As a support worker I earn £25000 a year, a doctor, even a junior doctor should be earning more than me

[@okuolijide7]

I hate this deceptive campaign here, every junior doctor does irregular hour work and some weekends. Average pay starting as fresh graduates is 29k+ London 32k+ after 1 year of experience they can locum and make 50-55 p/h. Once they qualify like a GP (takes only 5 years after university) they can locum for £100+ p/h junior doctors are not poor lol

[@ryanmatheson5137]

@@okuolijide7 London pays more because of outer London weighting

[@okuolijide7]

@@ryanmatheson5137 usually in the public sector there is a London uplift. Let's get back on topic though, doctors make 5.5x more than the average person in lifetime earnings and have a fat 20% pension on the NHS. They are not poor let's get that right, making it seem like your local doctor is earning what a builder makes is so far from the truth it's funny.

[@ryanmatheson5137]

@@okuolijide7 Do you think I was the one that made the 25000 a year claim?

[@badgersgetabadname]

The Spectator = Telegraph for those who need colour pictures to help them hate people they don`t know

[@johnrussell3961]

Her defence was lots are poorer since 2008! What make the doctors so special? That answer is everyone needs pay restoration. The Tories have made the majority poorer to make the rich richer. She up is trying to make those left behind fight each other….rather than look at the rich who have created the problem. And far too many of those left behind still blame the EU!

[@azena.]

It's the UKIP/Reform/Whatever other name they are giving themselves now, mouth piece essentially.

[@mariogmajner6549]

@@johnrussell3961 Labour no better.

[@Trax777]

​@@mariogmajner6549 they obviously are, didnt have these problems under Blair or Brown

[@Regailion]

and they both = IEA

[@cynthiacelestine6434]

Why was Ian allowing this American to interrupt everyone when she had the floor and said what she wanted??? Maybe a plant for big American Pharmaceuticals and if Ian knows this why was she allowed on his show to speak on doctors pay

[@stevemitchell1454]

He is a rabid Tory.

[@Straightedgefish]

Probably borrowed some quirks from Fiona Bruce, watching Question Time. She was always happy to giving the Tories a platform and making sure they weren’t interrupted.

[@chatham43]

....so in order to support your conspiracy theory Ian should never have allowed her on the show.....brilliant thinking but even so don't give up the day job.....expect you've heard that before.......😊

[@user-og1bs8wf9j]

Ah yes: Kate Andrews: currently working as an Economics Correspondent at The spectator. Before that she was the mouthpiece/news editor for IEA - the Institute of Economic Affairs, a right-wing think tank and supporter of all things to do with de-regulation, privatisation and Brexit. Before that she joined the Adam Smith Institute as the Head of Communications - again, another neo-liberal organisation funded by the tobacco industry and other source that remain unknown. She has also worked in US politics for Mitt Romney and Linda McMahon: both associates of the Trump administration. Therefore, should we even have to listen to the diatribe and ideology that spills out of her mouth? Absolutely not.

[@Si_Mondo]

Mitt Romney was *not* a Trump associate! 😂 He's what is known as a RINO over there 😂😂😂 Tell us more about how you know sweet FA about US politics! 😂😂😂

[@user-og1bs8wf9j]

@@Si_Mondo Mitt Romney: Republican Party's nominee for president of the United States in the 2012 election; On November 19, 2016 Romney met with him at the Trump to discuss the position of Secretary of State; 2017 - Trump endorsed Romney's 2018 senate campaign. Even though rivals and Romney voted against Trump on many matters, they both needed the support of each other politically. The irony being that Romney is regarded as an 'old school' Republican, whereas ideologically Trump isn't even a Republican. In a speech given in March 2016, Romney is quoted as saying, "if we Republicans choose Donald Trump as our nominee, the prospects for a safe and prosperous future are greatly diminished." Look at the World currently is it safer? Is it more prosperous? Look at Trump's own involvement in Ukraine - He praised Putin on taking over Crimea in 2014, saying “the rest of Ukraine will fall … fairly quickly.” In 2019, Trump withheld nearly $400 million in military aid to Ukraine.

[@DoktorLorenz]

You're very correct in that she's worked for or working for the Adam Smith Institute & Institute of Economic Affairs which are the least transparent think tanks or lets call the think tanks for what they really are...lobbyists. If people still don't think she is a lobbyist paid for by dark money then they're basically a turkey who's voting for christmas day to come sooner lol.

[@scl6747]

@@Si_Mondo Exactly what Inwas gonna say : Romney a trump associate ?? Laughable ..

[@lamestreammedia3154]

I agree with her however I've never worked for trump. 😊

[@ShahinaAhmad-gg1wg]

Kate is not allowing others to talk. She keeps butting in. Her comments are incorrect. Who is funding her.

[@karlkerr7348]

Why do we give these unknown "think" tanks platforms

[@Coelacanth1]

We don't, politicians and political pundits do, we support politicians and political pundits and we are not at all aware of our power

[@DoktorLorenz]

Adam Smith Institute & Institute of Economic Affairs are basically lobby groups, think tanks are a nice way to sugar coat what they really are, also they are funded by dark money and are the least transparent of the lobbyists.

[@yetidodger6650]

I wonder if she has a connection to American healthcare systems?

[@bennystokes8481]

of course she does.shes part of a think tank promoting the privatisation of the nhs.

[@bennystokes8481]

of course she has links.shes part of a think tank that promotes the privatisation of the nhs..she should never be allowed near british politics..shes just a hard right commentator being paid for her extreme views.

[@hvhvgitaar]

She is funded by them.

[@yoelsyhutchinson4377]

I can almost guarantee!!

[@awesomfog345]

Yep, funded by them

[@williamwilson8582]

A month ago my wife had a fall . Fractured her cheek.Cuts to face neck .Broken teeth .Damaged wrist .Went to.A&E . Took 14 hours to get a Scan .The place was like a casualty clearing station some had been there 24 hours .The staff and junior doctors were literally overrun . There were no beds to admit patients onto wards .The elderly were being helped to use the toilet by other patients .Food and water was distributed free in order to stop dehydration and hunger .Elderly people were cold and we went on the scrounge for blankets for them .People were on trolleys waiting to be admitted . The staff were amazing but unable to cope.I felt nothing but personal shame and shame in this government and this country for allowing this third world situation to be a reality here .140,000:staff short in all disciplines .45,000 nurses short.This didn't happen by accident .Hunt has much to answer for. Shameful, I say this as a veteran .

[@yamyampi36]

I hope your wife is on the mend.

[@richardlewis7498]

no vacancies in the gender recognition and diversty roles lots of chiefs earning far too much

[@yamyampi36]

@@richardlewis7498 what am you on about?

[@susanmorgan3104]

We should all be marching to Parliament to show our disgust at what is happening. I am a retired nurse 48years 10months working. I support you all...Thank goodness you are striking and calling out the destruction of the NHS.

[@lamestreammedia3154]

I attended a number of appointments during covid. All departments were empty I attended. A&e was however completely overrun. Management????

[@samdegoeij6576]

I love how Olli just says the most logical thing and essentially asks who pays you Kate? Than sits back and watches the zoo go beserk. I bet he was making an ethnogram on the paper in front of him, I would.

[@brianmiles5237]

What logica? We should fund the wage increase because of a one off spend of 4 billion during covid? Did you actually watch the video?

[@femazik]

so 10k a day for MP on a side is fine but doctors should not get what they need? hmmm... I am looking forward to see her looking for help in one of hospitals... karma is coming for all of those like her

[@elaineedgar2913]

And may Karma come sooner than later!

[@alanpage3973]

You don't think she goes through the NHS do you?

[@femazik]

@@alanpage3973 not yet... that is why she is so 'clever' now... karma delivers... and not a second too soon

[@okuolijide7]

Doctors can locum for over £1k+ a day once they fully qualify

[@femazik]

@@okuolijide7 1. 10% of what idiot tory MPs want without any meaningful education, 2. that means all doctors or a small percentage? because can does not mean will. 3. if you wish to aim for cherry picked individuals... shall we review tories one by one?

[@l4zrh4wk]

If you don’t pay healthcare workers better those in work will leave and those thinking about training to become one will choose not to. If you want a functioning healthcare system the government NEEDS to pay healthcare workers better.

[@simontemplar404]

No worries, post Brexit we will just import Indian doctors.

[@empressdoinalot]

​@Simon Templar who too will go back to India for more pay and better conditions. I know of 1 Dr who went back to Nigeria because the system is so shocking.

[@sarangistudent8614]

@@simontemplar404 nope, create a non-functioning healthcare system, then falsely blame immigrants for it being overrun and using this to slowly justify it being privatised. It’s a perfect storm for the Tories.

[@markwelch3564]

​@Empress LC and if they don't go back, there are other english-speaking nations out there to go to instead

[@arronscott7286]

I’m not sure the opinion of an American, let alone one who writes for the Spectator, matters one iota when it comes to the NHS.

[@johnc3403]

Her opinion is as valid as yours. She's wrong, but she's entitled to be.

[@DanOC1991]

That woman's arguments are nonsensical. So because we've all been squeezed, doctors can't try to redress that? Ludicrous

[@SuperSupermanX1999]

Everyone's had it bad under the Tories, therefore junior doctors can't complain. But of course we should still vote the tories back in. She's ridiculous

[@craftinghome]

Yep! It's the race to the bottom bs argument so often used by those who don't know what it's like to grow up in a poor household, and then stay that way no matter how many years you study or how many hours you work.

[@Si_Mondo]

35% pay increase is ludicrous, especially when it has to be extorted from the tax payer.

[@DanOC1991]

@@Si_Mondo if the economy hadn't been so mismanaged, that figure wouldn't need to be so large. It's a return to 2008 levels.

[@hg82met]

I love these free marketeers -- who're usually telling us that we should leave every decision to the 'invisible hand' and ask for CEOs and bankers to be paid 7-8 figure salaries and bonuses -- come out and say doctors shouldn't get a pay rise.

[@Si_Mondo]

Ahhh yes. The Invisible Hand, which has proven itself historically (see the stock market crash of 1921 and how it recovered). We should ignore reality and let the government try to control everything.... though that has proved detrimental everytime.

[@brianmiles5237]

She's never said that about CEO's you're making stuff up.

[@markhebert1167]

That woman with the American accent objected to being cut off but she interrupted everyone else

[@eddiehillier-sg2zs]

“Everybody has lost out” well maybe everybody should be angry and asking for wage rises too! What a world we live in where people asking for what theyve lost in the past 15 years is selfish, just because everyone else is also getting taken advantage of too. There's some people in this society who have done very well indeed, and they stay at the top by sending drones like this woman to pit us against the very people just like us we should be supporting!

[@robparsons3830]

The lady who spoke last is absolutely right . Our society is unhealthy due to the powers that be, endorsing unhealthyness via poor education , poor regulation of food manufacturers , poor environmental planning and excellent bonuses for the CEO's who fund the government . It's all by design because the £ is more important the the people

[@essaweb]

“Everyone has had below inflation pay rises!” I don’t think that the super rich have. They seem to be doing quite nicely out of us.

[@SuperSupermanX1999]

Honestly think about what the argument actually suggests. "Everyone has it bad under the Tories, so the junior doctors can't complain". Or just that as long as someone has it worse then you can't ever demand better for yourself. She would never accept this logic if it was applied to her or her job

[@IshtarNike]

It's a lie of omission anyway. Private sector pay raises are below inflation, BUT when you change jobs in the private sector it's common to get big pay bumps well above inflation. In the public sector the pay grades are fixed so there's none of that. Private sector wages as a whole are outstripping public sector wages and as such we are haemorrhaging talent in all key areas. This is unsustainable and will eventually lead either to total collapse or, as has been obvious from the start, privatisation via the back door as they outsource and contract out more and more services.

[@ethelmini]

What a glaring oxymoron. If things are getting more expensive, except everyone's labour, how the f*ck does she explain where all extra money from inflated prices is going?

[@Si_Mondo]

​@@IshtarNike Outsourcing will still be paid for via the money the state extorts. That still isn't privatisation.

[@Si_Mondo]

​@@ethelmini It's *not* the prices that are inflated. That's not what inflation is. Inflation refers to the money supply. The amount of currency in circulation has dramatically increased in the last 3 years, mostly during the pandemic to pay for workers' furlough. The supply of money increases well beyond the demand for it, hence each unit of currency has less buying value than the currency had before the increase in supply. The prices rises are the symptom of this and the money paying them is going the same place the pre-inflated money was going; mostly on the overheads for production and transportation. Understanding economics helps with these discussions. You should probably listen to the American lady since she clearly understands it better than you.

[@MrXyzzy99]

I hardly recognised her. She looks well fed on her mysterious pay package

[@dibblerd986]

I wonder how many shares Kate has in private health companies?

[@pancakesyrup9250]

Funded by private health companies Love private health companies. She wants the same for the uk

[@Coelacanth1]

@@pancakesyrup9250 More cause to profit

[@EJK1965]

We seriously need a think tank to discuss the relevance of think tanks.......

[@Philljag]

I can’t stand that Kate andrews she was awful on question time too!! 😡

[@casperwallace9685]

She is on on BBCQT that often now, too many complaints going in about BBC pushing her, coz we knew she wants to get the NHS privatised.

[@karlkerr7348]

Jr doctors more valuable than the poisonous princess

[@youkosm]

Love how her argument is they don't earn peanuts because they can work overtime, weekends and nights ..

[@karlkerr7348]

Absolutely 💯 there's plenty of money 💰 and yes it's definitely a political choice.

[@maverick5039]

Oli is bang on point!!! Top Man!!!

[@susanmorgan3104]

Well said.

[@tommitchell4579]

Oli said "tax the rich" which then wasn't allowed to be followed up by anyone when the question of funding was asked. I've never understood why anyone who isn't in the 1% wouldn't continue to pursue this as a realistic policy. The protection the rich receive from poor journalism, right wing mouthpieces and silly people who genuinely believe they will earn that much one day, when this question is asked, is incredibly unfortunate

[@barryboom717]

Isn't it funny how, when it's bankers pay being discussed, Kate and her ilk say "we need to pay more in order to get the best people". However, when it comes to the people who look after us, it is the complete opposite. I'd much rather have "the best" people working in healthcare than banking.

[@brianmiles5237]

Nope, she literally advocated for looking at EUROPEAN health care like Germany and France. She's never said Bankers need more money. You've made all of this up.

[@barryboom717]

@@brianmiles5237 Nope, that was the very reason given for removing the Bankers bonuses in Liz Truss’s Ill-fated budget. Also the very same budget supported by the right wing think tanks that Kate and her ilk work for. She may not have said it publicly but it’s been said over and over by the side she works for.

[@brianmiles5237]

@@barryboom717 "She may not have said it publicly but it’s been said over and over by the side she works for." So she's never said it? Well done we got there.

[@barryboom717]

@@brianmiles5237 "her ilk" Brian, a type of person or thing similar to one already referred to.

[@brianmiles5237]

@@barryboom717 Owned. Lol.

[@JoeSpagnoli]

Like him or not, Oli Dugmore's patience here is STAGGERING.

[@karlkerr7348]

Kate an American only mentioned Australian and European health services 😅

[@BENTWOONEZERO]

She is not American.

[@upendasana7857]

Yes and its Austrailia where all of our junior doctors got to earn a decent wage and have better conditions !!strange that.Also Holland and Germany pay more per head for their healthcare even with their insurance systems,it doesn't come cheaper than NHS

[@BENTWOONEZERO]

@@upendasana7857 There are a few countries that spend more than us and a lot who spend less. You have to remember a lot of people here have just got here ( immigrants ) and have very little into the system so people like me who as pain in for 45 years get diluted service. Also the NHS as way to many non medical staff in relation to similar countries so a cull of Admin and diversity managers would free funds for more Doctors etc. Finally there is nothing to stop us doing what Australia does and poaching staff from poorer English speaking countries ie India & South Africa.

[@neilfeder4625]

That bit where Kate says that everyone's losing out should be on a loop showing that the way in which capitalism is applied in this country.

[@neilfeder4625]

Everyone still getting emails from head office thanking everyone for record profits.

[@onchristieroad]

I wonder why the NHS underperforms when it's been neglected for decades? How would you fund it? Tax the wealthy more for a start. Also, the NHS is paying hand over fist for massive private agencies to cover gaps, and yet we can't pay a decent wage to the staff they do have so they stay and others want to join? In the end, let's flip that funding question on its head: if we can't pay for decent healthcare, then what should we be paying for that's more important?

[@swanchamp5136]

Bends my mind that some how the NHS being forced to pay private companies more for services they could run is somehow more efficient? I mean for a start that private company will be in it for a profit I doubt they are running a non profit service so a chunk of that money that should be spent on patients is going straight into a third parties pocket. Then you have the internal supply companies that charge the NHS 2x 3x the amount for basic supplies like rulers they could get cheaper just going to a stationery shop but they are not allowed they have to but stuff from the extortionate 'internal' supply company probably owned by a Tory donor or even an MP themselves.

[@Si_Mondo]

​@@swanchamp5136You've just laid out multiple problems with government being involved in such a service, but still think government should run said service..... *taps on swampchamp's head while pressing ear against it* Yep. Hollow. Not surprising really.

[@swanchamp5136]

@Si Mondo so your only reply is to insult me while completely missing my point. All my points involve private companies feeding off the NHS like parasites and are allowed to by the Tories who want to privatise the NHS because they ideologically against it.

[@richardlewis7498]

​@@swanchamp5136 most of these parasites were rapidally introduced in schools and hospitals by mr blair

[@susanmorgan3104]

Absolutely agree 💯 If we don't have a healthy nation..... we have nothing. Health is the most important of all else.

[@kevinbarry1724]

As soon as someone starts talking sense, the discussion is brought to a close.

[@crayontom9687]

Kate Andrews of the IEA there. Biased. Disregard

[@joelmanning249]

Not a fan of alternative opinions I see.

[@chrisspencer6502]

Lol American arguing against the nhs. Sadly I'm going to take the argument that Americans take when Europeans argue for gun control. I'm sorry I can't hear what you're saying over the sound of my freedom. It's shocking that Ian tried to stop the debate when it was hitting at the real issue. The NHS needs a clear public health strategy. You need to improve the the health of the population to make it work. A little know fact about the period of WW2 rationing is the health of the nation actually improved. Malnutrition fell Childhood mortality fell Rates of nutrition related health conditions fell. Why was this? The diet of the nation improved forcing people to eat vegetables and creating a market where everyone could access a balanced diet.

[@metalhead2550]

Oli Dugmore = Legend Kate Andrews = Thinktank shill

[@maneshipocrates2264]

Why did they let that lady talk more than anyone else?

[@Coelacanth1]

She was noisier than everyone else

[@danielcrafter9349]

​@@Coelacanth1- she was ruder

[@christinamiller868]

The fact that 350k appointments will be cancelled is justification for their actions. They are CRUCIAL to the wellbeing of our country. Paid the same hourly rate as workers on a building site!

[@quiffpbacon]

The notion that doctors and brickies have the same earning potential is ludicrous. I totally support a pay increase for doctors, but made-up nonsense like this doesn’t do their cause any favours.

[@okuolijide7]

​@@quiffpbaconthey've been running a deceptive campaign and unfortunately many people can't do basic research and believe what they say when a quick 5 minutes of independent research sheds some light. Junior doctors average starting pay after university 29k+ outside London, London has an average extra 3k uplift. After 1 year of experience junior doctors can locum for £50-55 p/h on the side, and after 2 years experience they start ST1 training earning around £50,000. Once they qualify like GP for example (takes 5 years to become one) you can locum full-time for over £100+ per hour, I know of people who do this now and others who plan on doing this in a few years.

[@AndreAmorim-AA]

For a government that has already lost about 5% of tax revenue (more than military spending) due to corruption and failed projects, a pay raise for our doctors is a bargain investment

[@chatham43]

....and the disastrous lockdown which you inadvertently omitted to mention....and which Labour supported....remember...?

[@jamiedugda]

She’s excellent in talking about how it can’t be done without coming up with a decent solution.

[@chatham43]

....so what's your solution....?

[@jamiedugda]

@@chatham43 didn’t say I had one. But talking and treating doctors like they are arseholes doesn’t help. Coming up with solutions would be a much more productive use of time. Do you have any suggestions?

[@VelhaGuardaTricolor]

​@@chatham43 tax the ultra rich. Solved!

[@bradwhiteuk]

That's because, not only does she not *have* a decent solution, she doesn't want *any* solution. The right wish to (at a bare minimum) maintain the status quo, and they'll say and do whatever it takes to achieve it.

[@lamestreammedia3154]

Saw an interview with a labour wannabe leader. Asked if 10% was an amount labour would pay. Refused to answer the question 😊 Sad it wasn't the job of the opposition to answer this question. 😮

[@Jericho642]

“Every body has lost out”. No. The working class has lost out. The rich have gotten even richer. These are indisputable facts.

[@RaRa-eu9mw]

Doctors are "the rich" - the average wage of junior doctors puts them in the top 8%. When they become consultants, they go into the top 1%.

[@susanmorgan3104]

Absolutely right....spot on. It's only the working classes that pay Tax.

[@heatherhanks4869]

I saw a surgeon who does Caesareans at the hospital about two months ago he told me he’s lucky if he’s able to do one at a month because they’re no longer being done the reason he has to do one every month is to keep up his license new doctors are not being trained in Caesareans this woman needs to get some of the facts straight

[@richardgallagher4880]

What?

[@stevejw52]

"tax them till the pips squeak". I love it

[@richardlewis7498]

wont happen they will just invest elsewhere

[@jadedshade]

Love how the one who wanted to be allowed to finish speaking, had no problem constantly talking over the others!

[@glyndavies5479]

Lets see Kate Andrews payslip

[@richardcook1987]

Nothing from public money.

[@ttbr7687]

The mouthpiece of billionaires.

[@DJWESG1]

Thus is someone who supports austerity and all the excess deaths associated with it. Her fake concern should be seen as an slap in the face of all those countless thousands of needless deaths.

[@stegemme]

I suspect Kate Andrews is pitching to be the next Director of Communications at Tory HQ

[@laurieharper1526]

An American criticising NHS staff? Ha ha. The US healthcare system is so wonderful, isn't it? Nobody there dies or ends up in massive debt because they cannot afford healthcare, do they?

[@aidanjohnkelly]

This is a person who's on a six-figure salary, is a paid lobbyist for the private health companies to dismantle the NHS, and a columnist for The Spectator magazine, claiming that the Junior Doctor's pay demands are outrageous. There was a public sector pay squeeze in this country since 2010, the doctors are trying to claw back at least some respectability to their pay, I fully support them. And they do a job of infinite more value than Andrews, whose main role is a cheerleader for neoliberalism and NHS privatisation, I know who does and doesn't deserve a pay rise.

[@Mikebloke]

Interestingly I think all of them had a fair point, if you add it all together, our entire society is built and adjusted to just keep going and quick plastered to fill cracks as they appear. Labour "efficiency" cannot happen in a system of already tired and stressed workforce, but other adjustments and a reduction of managerial overuse would help but not soon enough, which leads to the unpopular option of reforming scope and purpose. The only way to keep the status quo is to tax the rich, because the working and lower middle classes are already on their knees trying to keep afloat.

[@Tiz147]

Odd how the amount of money the NHS wastes is never mentioned or bought to the forefront.

[@utopiate75]

I'm a Band 5 in the NHS. I take home £1800pcm. Rent £750, Council tax £150, Energy £200 (soon to be more), Car running costs inc fuel £240, internet and phone £50, water £33, credit card £60 (increasing as the last few months I've used it at the end of the month due to running out of money). What's left (£300) is meant for food, shopping etc for myself and my daughter. I last went out socially August last year. I don't smoke or drink. I cannot afford clothing for myself, I do not spend anything frivolously. My recent MOT cost £220 went on my credit card. I work in a Mental Health Trust supporting some of societies most troubled and damaged individuals. I feel I should be able to do more than simply exist.

[@l33jcm]

The Govt's inability to negotiate is the key stumbling block to any resolution. That they are the primary cause for much of what ails the NHS (including working conditions for its staff) over the past decade, is why we all desperately need a change of Government!

[@karlkerr7348]

Who does Kate "work" for

[@tobymarshall8142]

'who am I arguing with here, let's go' 😂

[@davepubliday6410]

There are doctors out there earning £20,000?!‽‽‽ This country is far poorer than I thought. I suspect there are 3rd world countries that pay jr doctors better.

[@ephre]

Anyone who says junior doctors don't deserve better pay needs to work as one for a week and then say that.

[@Mrstevemoore]

Barely Vs Politics Joe… Ollie said about 2 sentences.

[@swanchamp5136]

He was talking to much sense and that's not allowed, you can tell the American woman wasn't going to let anyone make any arguments against private health care. One of her arguments is they get paid enough snd more than others, maybe they should have asked how much she gets paid? I'm guessing she's a Tufton st 'think tank' which are basically just lobbyists

[@Mrstevemoore]

I did like his blunt response to is their pay demands fair… “Yes….”

[@lokischildren7862]

It's all the fault of the Tories

[@karlkerr7348]

The NHS needs Real investment. Get rid of the private sector leeching of the NHS.

[@geraldhornsby]

MPs have had a 28% pay rise since 2010 £65,738 to £84,144) What skills do they have to do their job? They're shuffled in and out of cabinet positions according to the whim of the PM and the pressure groups (e.g. Braverman to Home Office). Let's talk about pay rises and gold-plated pensions, shall we? An unqualified secretary-level MP gets around £150k per year, plus expenses. Backbench MPs (and some cabinet members) earn ££££££ from "second jobs" and paid directorships and advisors and media (Lee Anderson £100k a year to spout on KGBNews). And once they're out, as well as their golden parachute, they have their pension and kudos to become paid advisors to those they've 'helped' whilst they were in post.

[@l3eatalphal3eatalpha]

I think they should let her talk uninterrupted, then interrupt everyone else. But I doubt Iain Dale would allow himself to be that biased.

[@adamgoulder8019]

Lol, The Spectator plonker saying the US is not the 'Free Market' healthcare system!

[@alisattar3635]

Time for people to come out and support junior doctors and save the NHS. Tories would be happy with NHS failing

[@redrob6026]

Kate asking people to allow her to finish speaking and then interrupting everyone who speaks.

[@shihabrahman6502]

Is this the Iain and Kate show?

[@ryanohanlon2589]

Didn’t realise Kate had her own show on LBC

[@johnc3403]

you do now.

[@reeling-in]

Labour's 're-education' scheme for Britain should not be allowed to enter parliament!

[@robbiethepict2783]

Texas Kate compares a junior doctor to a three year apprenticeship.

[@elingles3708]

Tells people to let her finish and then interrupts and talks over others 😂

[@Coelacanth1]

Do as I say, not as I do

[@danielcrafter9349]

​@@Coelacanth1- of course, she's a 'Murican!

[@NeilCWCampbell]

I blame Brexit and conservative voters for this fiasco

[@wheredidugo6739]

Can society fuction without doctors and nurses? If ther answer is no then give them what they are asking for.

[@AndyPerry1972]

Not asking for an extraordinary Pay rise!!??? 35%?? If you don't like what the job pays then find another profession