Is Ave Maria bad Latin?

Is one of the most famous Latin prayers - AVE MARIA - actually "bad Latin"? Join me for a fascinating etymology story which takes us to the beginning of the Roman Empire, to the Roman Republic and its struggle against the Carthaginian Empire in the Punic Wars, and back to Biblical Times in the Old Testament.
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Quintilian quote in Latin:
latin.packhum.org/loc/1002/1/...
Translated into English:
penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...
The attested occurrences of "have" in Classical Latin literature:
latin.packhum.org/search?q=%2...
Etymologies:
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ave#Latin
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Intro and outro music: Overture of Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute) by Mozart
00:00 Intro
00:26 "ave" etymology & Quintilian
01:30 Domus Faunī
03:16 Hawwah
04:12 How to say "bless you!" in Latin when someone sneezes
05:00 H is pronounced in Classical Latin
06:02 "Maria" etymology
07:50 both words from Hebrew/Aramaic

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

I regret that my report on the etymology of Maria was somewhat incomplete. BehindTheName.com has a good treatment of the various possibilities: www.behindthename.com/name/mary The Wiktionary entry lists the likelihood that Miryam comes from Aramaci Maryam, which is why I didn't mention Miryam, but I probably should have; I was being glib: en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Mary#Etymology 🦂 Sign up for my Latin Pronunciation & Conversation series on Patreon: www.patreon.com/posts/54058196 📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com 🦂 Support my work on Patreon: www.patreon.com/LukeRanieri

[@kneelingcatholic]

Dominus tecum, Luke!

[@commentfreely5443]

a e i o u h atque not ac deinde not dein so chuck a h in front of your vowels for fun

[@mimung3185]

Hi, in southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland "Servus" is a used greeting. Was this word a greeting in roman times?

[@petermsiegel573]

Wiktionary is a fantastic resource, as you well know, except when it isn't. (LOL). Thanks for all your amazing content.

[@b43xoit]

"However it was most likely originally an Egyptian name, perhaps derived in part from mry 'beloved' or mr 'love'." Farsi has "mehr", 'love'. (sorry that's in transliteration; I don't know Arabic letters.)

[@cherubin7th]

Next week: Is English bad French?

[@putinpunhere]

Yes! Yeeeeeesss!

[@ironinquisitor3656]

Hahahaha!

[@mauropodda3565]

No, it's bad german.. 😅😅😅

[@MrShadowThief]

Yes.

[@galegocossia5506]

Sure!

[@daciaromana2396]

So “ave” from ave maria actually comes from Phoenician by way of the Carthaginians and it’s related to the Hebrew word “hawwa”. Wow, what a journey. This is why I love this channel. Can’t wait to torment my friends with this one.

[@fallinginthed33p]

Hawa in Arabic too.

[@daciaromana2396]

@@fallinginthed33p Naturally. Hebrew and Arabic are both Semitic languages. Thanks

[@dust001]

@@fallinginthed33p Was just going to make this remark as well, in standard Arabic it's Hawwā, but in my Egyptian dialect it's pronounced the same as the biblical Hebrew Hawah.

[@fallinginthed33p]

@@dust001 interesting. With a short final a and a single w? Is there a soft pronounced h at the end too?

[@VeronicaBrandt]

Any comment on the in mulieribus vs inter mulieres ? The prayer has the former but the vulgate the latter.

[@albertito77]

We see Mary as the second Eve (first Eve brought death, second Eve brings life). So that the most common prayer to her should start with a greeting cognate with the Hebrew word for Eve is fitting indeed

[@juanausensi499]

It may be fitting, but the question is if that was intentional

[@arrus]

@@juanausensi499 given St. Jermone's eriudition (assuming that the source is most certainly the Vulgate) I'd conjecture that it was - that was the dominant Latin consensus on Marian theology since Tertullian [210 AD] and arguably was the Apostolic consensus too (cf. St. Irenaeus)

[@alwantamalus3709]

Sorry but it's total rubbish based on ignorance.

[@martiejude625]

@@alwantamalus3709 what proof do you have of your assertion?!

[@Kenyon-Brown.]

Yes

[@pablodelrio2367]

Mater dolorosa, ora pro nobis!

[@fabiolimadasilva3398]

"Ave Maria, cheia de graça, o Senhor é convosco. Bendita sois vós entre as mulheres. Bendito é o fruto do vosso ventre, Jesus. Santa Maria, mãe de Deus, rogai por nós pecadores. Agora e na hora de nossa morte. Amém".

[@guillermorivas7819]

Stabat mater dolorosa, juxta crucem lacrimosa. Estaba la madre dolorosa, junto a la cruz llorosa.

[@fabiolimadasilva3398]

@@guillermorivas7819 Eu lembro sempre de minha finada mãe quando rezo a Ave Maria.

[@mik91_N8]

AMEN

[@wolfthequarrelsome504]

Is é do mhaidin Mhuire, Atá lán de ghrásta, atá an Tiarna leat.

[@vacri54]

Luke: casually switches between the Greek and Latin pronunciations of 'philosophy'. Me: can't even replicate them in my head.

[@fallinginthed33p]

That stress accent in Greek is easier if you know a tonal language like various Chinese dialects or Thai.

[@beheroot]

and then comes polish, with hard Z inside - filoZofia :D

[@Galenus1234]

In fact, Punic "hawe!" (Live!) is short for "Live long and prosper!" 🖖

[@TheBurningWarrior]

Wow, as a Catholic, this gives me all the more appreciation for the verse from Ave Maris Stella: Sumens illud Ave Gabrielis ore, Funda nos in pace, Mutans Evæ nomen. Translated (poetically) as: Taking that Ave which from Gabriel came, peace confirm within us, changing Eva's name. There is actually an etymological connection linking these two words which the hymn linked symbolically (as Mary is the new Eve whose willing obedience, through her son, remedies the sin of her forerunner's disobedience in Eden.)

[@DoctorDewgong]

wow. There is a lot of poetry packed into those lines

[@ImotekhtheStormlord-tx2it]

imagine being catholic and acting like a smartass about latin

[@mjbalbo]

Well if native speakers themselves said it that way, then it's not really a "mistake", is it? It's just how a (then) living language evolved.

[@geoffreylacroix2373]

In fact it's just a clickbait title.

[@joligej]

He concluded the video stating that exact same thing... Watch until the end before you judge

[@geoffreylacroix2373]

@@joligej Yes... In the end of the video... So that's a clickbait title.

[@nathanielkennedy8358]

@@geoffreylacroix2373 But the title is a question.

[@safetysizzerz3530]

Yea there’s no confrontation at all, church pronunciation has just evolved differently from the way the Romana would have spoken it. So it would be wrong in the sense that the Latin language as a whole wouldn’t have been spoken that way. Church pronunciation is different now. But the mans gotta make money somehow. At least the clickbait isn’t sexual.

[@Yamikaiba123]

Dude, you owned that classical Hebrew pronunciation of חוה / HWE !

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks! It's not a language I know at all; just reading the IPA

[@Yamikaiba123]

@@polyMATHY_Luke Haha, yeah. I'm studying Hebrew Cantillation, and one of the early things I made myself do was read a bunch of phonology articles theorizing about the original pronunciation of certain letters and vowel signs, and listen to recordings to figure out what the specific IPA symbols meant (anatomically speaking). By the way, would you know why the letter Y's name in English matches the Classical Era Hebrew letter Waw? Yet we don't pronounce Y like Waw anymore. This amazed me when I noticed it. Or is it a coincidence...

[@ghlscitel6714]

So the phrase "ave caesar, morituri te salutant" has probably a weak historical foundation? Surprise surprise. Why did I spoil my life with 5 years of latin at school.

[@th60of]

There is exactly one source in Latin, Suetonius, Divus Claudius 21, and it's not about a gladiator fight but a naumarchia, a staged sea battle. In some Renaissance editions, Claudius replies "Avete vos", "Hail to you too", but the better manuscripts have "Aut non", "Or maybe not", Claudius being the funny guy.

[@Tubulus3546]

@@th60of naumachia :)

[@th60of]

@@Tubulus3546 Oops, indeed!

[@captainufo4587]

@@th60of It was a single case, celebratory naumachia staged with convicted prisoners sentenced to death (combining the fights with public executions wasn't uncommon. You got several birds with one stone: the criminals dead, the bloodshed the public wanted, and you didn't waste much more valuable professional gladiators). The actual sentence was probably "ave imperator, morituri te salutant" rather than "ave, Caesar." Claudius replied "Aut non" (possibly out of common courtesy, possibly just a joke) and caused a major tantrums because the convicted interpreted it as an imperial pardon and refused to fight. It took a lot to convince them that there was no pardon and they still had to fight to death.

[@VABJMJ]

It is interesting that I have seen in ancient commentaries of the Bible people saying that Ave in Ave Maria also represented that Mary was an "inverted Eve" (inverted Eva, Ave, Eva). Both because of the origin of the word, the inverted function of Mary in Salvation history (the woman that brought the Savior, in contrast with the woman who brought Damnation) and because it providentially did become a mirrored word in Latin. I wouldn't call "Ave" bad Latin personally, because it has solidified itself over millenia (so I'd call it a development). Also there are commentaries on the whole Maryam name as well. One of my favorite ones is that Miryam would mean Bitter Sea in Hebrew, while Maryam would mean Lady Sea in Aramaic. And, although in no way intentional on the part of who named Mary, that would be perceived as a providential change that expresses how Mary, through her participation in the Lord's salvation, turned the bitter sea of sin into a lordly Sea. The fact that Mária means Seas in Latin seems to explain why, in conjunction with these other things, Mary has been so strongly associated with the Sea since ancient times (as the Star of the Sea, the Lady of the Sea, etc)

[@M4th3u54ndr4d3]

The"inverted Eva" does not make sense. The angel spoke tô Mary in aramaic, not latin.

[@TheAtlarchy]

That is a common church practice. It is called "teaching theology through every possible action perfirmed by The Church" Very common practice which lead to majority of the traditions within the church.

[@TheAtlarchy]

@@M4th3u54ndr4d3 It's not about what the angel said at all, but it is about what the church can teach through a chant/prayer.

[@supertigerroadtrip5193]

Mary is the new Eve, it's in many many hymns of the Orthodox Church.

[@samcabrera2316]

​@@TheAtlarchy it matters at some point. Mary was a Jewish Galilean woman of Nazareth, and their language is Aramaic not Latin. Not everything that the church teaches is correct. The Catholic church along with other Christian churches appropriated most of the Jewish traditions.

[@12_xu]

I don't know if they're related but in Southern Italy the word "auè" (pronounced like you did), also contracted as "uè" is used to salute or to call the attention from someone.

[@Olly133mhz]

I was thinking exactly the same thing 🤓 - in the north of Italy especially, ‘uè’ is prevalent, and I have often wondered if indeed it descended from ave

[@aleee641]

I think the accent should be inverted, since the E is closed, not open. Isn't it "ué"?

[@12_xu]

@@aleee641 You're right, googling it "uè" is the baby's wailing in Italian, whilst "ué" is the salute

[@marce3893]

I don't think so because that would imply the existence of this word escaping the sound change W > V and I can't think of another word that does that

[@aleee641]

@@marce3893 I'm not educated on this theme but in Italian the letter U does exist and it's separate from V, also at the beginning of words, such as "umile", "urgere", "umbro". Despite we're ruling out "ué" coming directly from "aue", we wouldn't contradict your point if we assumed an intermediate phase, in which the A were dropped. If at certain point the initial A had been almost silent, it'd have been no room for the change from U to V. You must have either a vowel after the inital U, or a group with a vowel after U and one of some precise sound before, for example vowel-consonant-U-vowel, but I'm not sure if this is totally correct. For example (distinguishing V and U through modern sounds) "lvna" wouldn't work: in fact we say "luna"; on the other hand "uero" wouldn't sound Italian either, as we say "vero". Although "aue" turning to "ué" bypassing the V change in unlikely, I don't see why "aue" couldn't have got his form before, like from "àuē" to an eventual "*auèe" and then "uée".

[@lordsiomai]

That feel when exploring why "Ave Maria" might be wrong Latin made you realize how deep it really is and how it actually relates so well with the story of Mary in the Bible

[@xtusvincit5230]

In Catholic theology since the early second century Irenaeus, Mary is associated with Eve, as in the New Eve or Second Eve. Is there any chance that the use of Ave Maria might have been a conscious choice at some point in order to drive home the Eve connection with Maria? Stranger things have happened!

[@ludwigvanbeethoven8164]

Im sure they knew that. For Jesus called himself the new Adam, or referred to it. And its also mentioned the association in Revelations

[@xtusvincit5230]

@@ludwigvanbeethoven8164 It was Paul in the Letter to the Romans who called Jesus the New Adam. But is there any evidence for the choice of Ave instead of Salve being based on Eve?

[@IONATVS]

@@xtusvincit5230 I don’t know of any evidence for that being the original intention from when the prayer was composed, but it has certainly been a common observation by theologians since then that addressing Mary with “Ave” ought to remind us that Mary is the new “Eva” who through her sinlessness and the parallels between her life and her son’s in at least a symbolic sense counteracts the original sin of “Eva”.

[@ElizabethDMadison]

@@IONATVS "Ave [Maria] gratia plena, Dominus tecum" is a translation of the Greek from St Luke's Gospel of how the Angel Gabriel greets Mary. In Spanish by the way, for those who think Salve is better, the prayer begins "Dios te salve Maria, llena eres de gracia, el Senor es contigo". So, literally, Spanish speakers translate Latin into Spanish by translating Ave to Salve. I really like Luke's explanation of why early Christians would have actually seen [h]ave as the fittingest translation. And definitely since theologically the obedience of Mary is seen as undoing the disobedience of Eve, it's exactly true that EVA/AVE has always been appreciated by Christians, even though it wasn't necessarily the reason for the word choice.

[@dominiccasts]

@@ElizabethDMadison And then you have the Hail Holy Queen, or "Salvē Regīna", but AFAIK that prayer is a later invention by the Roman church, rather than a translation from biblical Aramaic or Greek

[@Nehmi]

Wait. But the source of the Hail Mary is the passage in the Gospel of Luke where Gabriel greets Mary to tell her she will bear the son of God. Gabriel uses the greeting "Hail!" or "Rejoice!" in Koiné Greek, which is "chaire" or "χαιρε". Wouldn't this be properly translated as "Avē"?

[@elenacurnis8858]

I was just asking the same.

[@TheLivingHeiromartyr]

Well, in editions of the Vulgate that I can find, it’s translated ‘have’. So there could be all sorts of reasons for the shift from the Vulgate’s ‘have’ to the liturgical ‘ave’.

[@Deerm3at]

Have you ever been to a Traditional Latin Mass? It is so beautiful and inspiring!

[@timurermolenko2013]

Pope wants to get rid of it...

[@johnemerson1363]

@@timurermolenko2013 They were working on that in the mid 1960's. I was in the US Navy then and stationed in Sicily and served Latin masses when the local English speaking priest wasn't available and an Italian priest would fill in. The Mass of the Vernacular was soon instituted and thee was soon a real revolt. I sort of joined one of the groups because I considered myself a Roman Catholic. Then one could go to any nation in the world and in a Roman Catholic Church the Mass would be in Latin. I might not understand the Sermon but I could participate in the service. Today, I don;t know what the status is but it really opened a can of worms.

[@timurermolenko2013]

@@johnemerson1363 yes, they had so called Council of Vatican II in 60s, where they limited traditional mass and made it more "fun and appealing to a modern man". I'm no catholic, but I like when each church stays true to its tradition. And now they want to get rid of it all together.

[@martiejude625]

@@timurermolenko2013 like your comment. Just to let you know though that the liturgical changes were never fully accepted by lay or clergy. Some bishops too. Thousands of priests left in its aftermath, lay people too. The Modernist bishops, including the pope are working hard to protestantise The Church today. More are standing up and fighting back. Watch this space. Lol

[@timurermolenko2013]

@@martiejude625 yeah, I myself attended a traditional Mass. Before I didn't even know it exists. T h o ugh a recently, the Pope has taken further steps to get rid of it

[@usayeed727]

Glad I discovered you. Always staying tuned for more!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks! welcome

[@yccmzimmy]

what a wonderful management of accents and pronunciations you have... hats off to you, tanto di cappello

[@SuperTommox]

Would you do more videos about the writing found in Pompeii and other sites? It's so fascinating reading words from common people of that time.

[@JustUsCrazyBoyz]

Magnificat anima mea dominum!

[@mik91_N8]

R: "Et exultavit spiritus meus in Deo."

[@th60of]

Fascinating! I had never heard of there being a Phoenician root. My old Georges dictionary postulates a homonymous aveo, meaning "be blessed", and I used to think the short e was just iambic shortening. So the (very) occasional plural (h)avete and the infinitive (h)avere are just secondary forms then?

[@billsmalley4911]

So it seems. Just making it into a verb. Though, given how language works, it's not wrong to say 'avete!', it simply is a very defective verb.

[@pietrufarrugia9617]

The overlay of Mary and 'Life' makes beautiful poetic sense. Thanks for the video!

[@rajasandiego9117]

Informative! Thank you ❤️

[@rafaelalexie2417]

This, like all of your videos, is pure gold!

[@aa-zz6328]

In Arabic, the word "تحية, ta7yah" means greetings, and comes from the root word for life (حية, H/7-y-h) in Arabic.

[@MrAbood900]

The 3 is usually a ع not a ح. Also the root is not حية but more likely أحيا or حيًا. I've never seen a feminine base form in my life. I won't say it's impossible because maybe there a few i don't know of but the root is almost always the singular male past form

[@aa-zz6328]

@@MrAbood900 it's "7" that represents the letter "ح", isn't it! I forgot what it was! I don't know, it sounded and looked like (حية) the minimum/default triconsonantal root that could be added on to create new words. If not, it would then be "حيي, H/7-y-y"? But it didn't seem right to me. I'm not that technical, I'm not well versed in language study, I just wanted to mention it as a "fun fact".

[@goodday2760]

@@aa-zz6328 If you search "matres lectiones", you'll find that Semitic languages are the source of the attitude that y and ou/w are 'semi-vowels', which people often have today. So that may be why H-y-y is an acceptable root, because the language probably treats it as a duplicated semivowel that just passes for a consonant. Some consonants of roots are extra-separated in Arabic (some plurals do not add a suffix but isolate the last two) while y-y and w-w are probably conjoined on the other hand. The way the feminine root just removes one y seems to support this, like it's been absorbed by the other y. But like you, I'm offering conjectures.

[@eyeballpapercut4400]

@@aa-zz6328 it actually would be "حيي", but surprise surprise you'd read it in noun form as حَيٌّ as in الحيّ القيّوم and in verb form as حَيَّ - يَحْيَى which comes from حَيِيَ but the second ي is combined to the second, giving it a tashdīd ّ Meanwhile, حَيَّةٌ means a snake. Keep it up there is more to learn about arabic word morphology.

[@viictor1309]

I thought the hebrew hawwa was connected to the arabic hawa meaning air

[@stefanodadamo6809]

Straordinario come sempre. Have magister Luke!

[@VictorLepanto]

it is interesting that the Biblical "Eve's" name is actually based on the Hebrew word for life. In the original Hebrew her name is Cheva (pronounce the C-H as in Chanukah or Bach) b/c she is the is the mother of "all the living."

[@NK-vd8xi]

The original Hebrew ch isn't the same as the ch in Bach. That is a more recent European and then Israeli innovation. Ch was originally like the Arabic equivalent, which is written in Maltese as Ħ. The original Hebrew vav was also a waw. So Cheva is actually Ħewa. Ħewa is more similar to HAVE /hawe/.

[@VictorLepanto]

@@NK-vd8xi The Hebrew primer I read said it was like Bach, that is a frequent analogy I've seen many times. As for the shift from waw to vav, if it is true that waw was the original pronunciation, it was a shift that occurred very early in Hebrew history. Certainly by the time of Jesus it had already occurred. it probably occurred sometime after the development of the Greek Septuagint scriptures had already begun. I understand that their are versions of the Septuagint which includes the name of King David spelled (in Greek letters) both Daoud & Dabid. Greeks did not have a letter w/ the vee sound. My guess is the beta was used to approximate the vee sound.

[@NK-vd8xi]

@@VictorLepanto yeah that's a Europeanism (for lack of a better term). Middle Eastern populations maintained the sound, as did Neo-Aramaic and Arabic. The sound you're describing is the same as khaf which wouldn't make sense to have as two separate letters. For vav/waw, there may have been dialects that were tending to /β/ in certain situations (as an allophone) but the sound was maintained by Middle Eastern Jews so it must have become a true "vav" a lot later. Most old Hebrew loans into other languages borrow it as a W sound as opposed to a V.

[@lowenzahn3976]

And Adamah (אדמה) means earth/ground. Adam and Eve are Earth and Life.

[@VictorLepanto]

@@lowenzahn3976 Adamah & Eve (Chevah) are analogized throughout the creation story. The Earth & Eve are treated a typological parallels. The Earth is Mother Earth & Eve is literally called the mother of all the living. A mist is described as rising up from the primeval Earth & the Hebrew word for mist is a rhyme for the Hebrew name of Abel. Abel is supposed to illustrate how man's life like an insubstantial mist. Arising for a brief & quickly vanishing. There are many ways in which the primeval Earth is treated like the mother of all life, both plant & animal & for man as well.

[@shellyharry8189]

great lesson! Luke, you always explain complex issues so they are both relatable and easy to understand! thank you!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks, Shelly!

[@vy1585]

Just came from Pompeii, wish I watched this first so I could look for the stuff you mentioned.

[@Ivan-ln3wh]

Excellent video. Incredibly well made. One of your best videos recently.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Very kind!

[@johnandrez]

There's a traditional Catholic hymn in Latin that puns on Ave and Eva: Ave, maris stella, Dei Mater alma, atque semper virgo, felix caeli porta, sumens illud "Ave" Gabrielis ore, funda nos in pace, mutans Hevae nomen. You can hear it here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g3-0eZ6fpdqeldU

[@geoffbakerhytch5623]

Thanks for yet another fascinating, informative, entertaining, erudite video…please keep up the good work😎!

[@gabrielsa9751]

For coincidence, AVE is translated to Portuguese as Viva, the imperative form of viver, that means "live"

[@Hoo88846]

And in Cantonese, we call Eve (the original woman) as Ha Wa 夏娃, from the same Hebrew origin 🤩

[@DimitriDeAlencar]

Suggestion for you: Sardinia has a language that is considered the closest Romance to Latin. What about an “Ecolinguist-style” experiment of Latin vs Sardinian? Great video as usual.

[@VeronicaBrandt]

This is so detailed and persnickety. I love it!

[@wolfedelasandia3109]

Mary comes from Hebrew Miriam, though, which means either bitter, sea/water, elevate, as well as other meanings which all appropriately apply to the Virgin Mary in respect to her titles (Our Lady of Sorrows [bitter]< Star of the Sea [water], Queen of Heaven/Theotokos/Mother of God [elevate]). Just shows the beauty and power behind the name

[@xmini-ul7je]

In hebrew "mara(h)" means "bitter", Miryam means "beloved by God", Maryam means "that with the beautiful face", this guy talks about the first word, not about these names nor about their meanings, why?. See ya.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Evidently it's not clear; the best guess seems to be that Hebrew took it from Aramaic to make Hebrew Miryam

[@craighughes536]

Once again..giving us nuggets of knowledge..🤠🙏

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

And thanks for your support, Craig!

[@MrCount84]

I love this channel. It makes the nerd in me squeal with excitement. Gratias tibi est Magister Lucius

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Grātiās et tibī!

[@erhert]

Sir, you are another level.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks

[@HarveyHaans]

Interesting! I have a Stuttgart Vulgate (Biblia Sacra iuxta vulgatam versionem) which is a critical edition of the Vulgate that claims to be the closest to Saint Jerome's original (the original is as it were extracted from the many manuscripts they studied). It uses "have" instead of "ave", but I wonder if, at the time of Saint Jerome in the 4th century, would this spelling even still have been around?

[@clydecessna737]

Thank you for Aleph with Beth - fantastic.

[@gayzion]

ok I made many attempts throughout my years in liceo classico to point out some of these hebrew/semitic loanwords in latin and greek but no-one cared lol - so happy to have found your video! :) thanks for the beautiful linguistic journey

[@gianlucarenzi7706]

8:48 prime minister Renzi. WTH! Absolutely fantastic dude! Non riesco a fermare le mie risate!!! Keep up the great work!

[@albizabm]

Difficile non notarlo😄(almeno per noi italiani)

[@redivivo]

Ciao Luke, sono uno studente italiano del liceo, ti volevo domandare se potresti qualche volta fare dei video prettamente educativi, in cui, ad esempio, spieghi la consecutio temporum o altri argomenti relativi all'analisi del periodo. Grazie e ita semper persevera perché amo guardare i tuoi video.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Grazie per l'idea!

[@baruch2511]

Oh.. maaaan.. I'm simply flashed. I speak Hebrew and understand Aramaic. When you started your Intro... I already knew where you would (or should) go to... =) I learned latin and koine greek a looooong time ago. What I preserved is the "instinct" for fine nuances of a language and especially its correct pronounciation - I've lerned modern Hebrew in 2 years, speaking it without any accent... though I grew up with Russian and have now German as my mother tongue. I admire the old, ancient languages.... and your extraordinary great work! Keep it on, pleace 🤩

[@Azoundo]

The connection between Have, Maria and bitter life is really beautiful. I’m just getting into classical Latin, and the historical context of what these words and names mean really create a sense of wonder for the ancient world.

[@ane7164]

Ave Maria in portuguese: Ave Maria cheia de graça O senhor é convosco Bendita sois vós entre as mulheres E bendito é o fruto do vosso ventre, Jesus. Santa Maria, Mãe de Deus Rogai por nós pecadores Agora e na hora da nossa morte. Amém! Abraços do Brasil! 🇧🇷

[@xibokamania]

Fascinating. In Portuguese you can still greet someone with "Viva!" which is the imperative form of the verb "viver" (to live)

[@ilgattoparddo]

Nunca tinha ouvido falar. Você é de Portugal?

[@xibokamania]

@@ilgattoparddo Sim comum em Portugal

[@viictor1309]

@@ilgattoparddo pode ser um equivalente ao típico "salve" brasileiro que é virtualmente identico ao "salvē" latino

[@matheuspaiva4995]

Meu Deus, não sabia que os Romano já mandava salve antes da gente 🇧🇷. Btw Salve!

[@ilVice]

Very interesting, thank you. (The Shish cameo was perfect)

[@orlogheen]

A wonderful video, thank you very much!By the way, a big like on the effort to try and pronounce the reconstructed spelling of חוה, the thing is the accent needs to fall on the last syllable(khaw-WA). I don't know if the Punics had the same imperative that we have in Hebrew but if so our imperative form is חיה(pronounced as kha-YE) for the infinitve form לחיות(Likhyot in Modern Hebrew, "to live") maybe this is the word the Romans heard and borrowed.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ah, well let's assume I have a Roman accent

[@somaisumsilva5965]

Sua explicação é muito boa e divertida! Parabéns!

[@PavelSedlak]

In the next video Luke can move to the next verse and explain the ablative after plēna. I'm aware that it had been used, but is that good Latin from classical grammarian point of view? During my Latin self-learning, I have always seen it used with the genitive.

[@michaelheliotis5279]

Classical grammarians likely would have found plēna + ablative of means to be grotty as it's a later innovation, though not "Late" as Quintilian (writing in the 1st Century) suggests that this use of the ablative was a relatively recent development in _Education of the Orator_ 9.3.1. Though it can't have sounded too hideous if people started using it in the first place.

[@lucafarina8601]

It is also interesting that the Te Deum says "Pleni sunt caeli et terra majestatis gloriæ tuae", while the Sanctus says "Pleni sunt caeli et terra gloriā tuā"

[@petermsiegel573]

Very informative video. BTW, Maryam, like Samson or Balaam, reflects standard Hebrew which was captured accurately in time in the Septuagint. Some time after the Greek and Latin translations were documented, under certain stress patterns, an -a- vowel shifted to -i-. This explains Balaam (Bal'am) > Bil'am in Masoretic Biblical Hebrew, as well as Maryam > Miryam, Samson (Shamshon) > Shimshon, magdal (Mary Magdalene) > migdal. People often make the assumption this was an innovation in the Greek or Latin or an issue of Aramaic, but indeed it is a simple, regular sound change documented between Late biblical Hebrew and the Masoretic Hebrew we have today. {Gary Rendsburg dates this "corollary to Philippi's Law" ca 400 CE or later!)

[@andrewcouto5620]

Thank-you so much!!! I love your videos

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Glad you like them!

[@user-kt5rv9ub2u]

Interesting. It would seem odd to great someone as important as Our Lady with a foreign expression, but I reason it would be akin to how "tchau" (ciao) has become the standard "bye" in Brazilian Portuguese, in a way that it would not be strange to say "tchau" to Our Lady Etymology and language use is an interesting subject! Do more on this topic someday, if you please 😊 thank you Luke

[@iain349]

Poly, you beard looks fierce. Oh and also another good video.

[@vulpes1610]

This use of _salvē_ as all ‘hello’, ‘goodbye’ and ‘bless you’ when it actually means ‘be well’ is still current in Catalan at least in the Northern Valencian dialect. We say _salut!_ which means ‘health!’ in the very same situations.

[@talkcommonsense]

Once again, brilliant!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks!

[@edoardotrabucchi1648]

Great video!

[@romancetv762]

На канале уже 116 тысяч! Поздравляю!

[@voxincaelo]

This is bugged me for years. Thanks Luke!

[@Lestoker]

Best channel in the mondo

[@adrianobildhauer5104]

you channel has good etimology work. thanks.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks for watching

[@dux657]

Excellent information, as usual. And there you have, another issue for your videos "Latin in music": requiems, medieval songs, even Hollywood (Preliator by Globus, Ave Satani by Jerry Goldsmith, etc.). SALVE!

[@hiberniancaveman8970]

I remember a Greek thinking that the “h” in Homer was English people getting it wrong, and similarly the conductor of a choir thinking similarly about the “h” in Hosanna.

[@Facconti]

Is it a coincidence that you post a video drawing a connection between the Virgin Mary and Eve (something that has been done since the Patristic Age) just on a Marian day? Today is the Feast Day of Our Lady of Mercies! Also, check the Medieval hymn Ave Maris Stella, which makes a word play with their names: "Ave Maris Stella/Dei Mater alma/Atque semper virgo/Felix caeli porta/Sumens illud AVE/Gabrielis ore/Funda nos in pace/Mutans EVAE nomen..."

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

A lovely coincidence!

[@luismarin739]

I love Ave Maria Stella , it is a beautiful song

[@HoratiusClementinus]

As far as I know "Avē" began to be used first by Romans speaking to Emperors and was used commonly as vocative regardless of a puritan view of the origin of the word. Nevertheless: Grammarians 0 - I Living Languages since ancient times hahahaha

[@faramund9865]

Incredible, thank you.

[@katam6471]

We actually had a discussion in my choir this week on pronouncing the 'h' or not when singing a song in latin and nobody really knew. Have I understood it correctly when I think the answer is that it depends on whether you are singing with the classical or ecclesiastical pronunciation?

[@malarobo]

Yes, the romans between the 1st century BC and the 2nd century AD pronounced the "h" with aspiration (classical pronounciation). Then they stopped to pronounce that sound. Thus it depends on the historical era. I think a song in latin, if it's a church song, should be sung in ecclesiastical pronounciation because it was certainly composed in medieval or more recent times and because the modern pronounciation of latin is ecclesiastical. It's a different matter if you want to read a classical poetry (for example a poetry of Catullus). Otherwise it would be like singing a Beatles song with the pronunciation rules of old english.

[@katam6471]

@@malarobo Thanks, no 'h' then! :-)

[@hiberniancaveman8970]

Saints Ambrose, Augustine and Jerome were three centuries or more after that inscription in Pompeii got covered by volcanic ash. So plenty of time for "h"s to have been dropped all over the Roman empire.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

In standard Ecclesiastical pronunciation h is silent as in Italian.

[@katam6471]

@@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks!

[@silviomp]

"Salve" in Portuguese is also slang, meaning basically "hi", and it's used just like when people say "I wanna give a shout-out to..." Here it's more like "I wanna say 'Hi' to.. "Quero mandar um salve para" (lit. I wanna send a "salve" to...) and then you mention the person's name who is probably watching/listening or maybe present at the show. Interesting how some words have somehow survived after centuries. Great video as always!!

[@gaiusmarius8628]

きれいな さよなら です

[@weirdlanguageguy]

Wow, fascinating! I had no idea ave was related to Eve. Great video!

[@jacktoth-egeto45]

Der Lingvist, is that German with Futhark? Cool man! 👍

[@weirdlanguageguy]

@@jacktoth-egeto45 yes, and thanks

[@betrisherninox2865]

Have we all read Catullus 84, in which he mocks a self-important civil servant called Arris (Harrius?) about aspirating his aitches? It was this, not his meanderings about Lesbia, that made me love Catullus!

[@MensHominis]

Not just aspirating the aitches (which, as Luke says, was correct at the time), but using hypercorrect h in words which should begin with a simple vowel, I'd say? (Sorry if I misunderstood your comment.) And even aspirating initial c as ch (probably like classical χ?) in one example ... now that's borderline Swiss. 😄

[@betrisherninox2865]

@@MensHominis Yes, that's right, of course. In our second year Latin class, we were all encouraged to rewrite the Arrius poem in fair English. Some of the results were hilarious, but not quite as hilarious (or biting) as our friend, Catullus. :)

[@saintburnsy2468]

It was Catullus 16 that did it for me, lol

[@betrisherninox2865]

@@saintburnsy2468 LOL! Did you know you can buy frilly ladies' sunfrocks with Catullus 16 embroidered daintily on them? What a lovely touch!

[@saintburnsy2468]

@@betrisherninox2865 😂 I want this now! Always fun to drop a casual "p*dīcābō..." into conversation when the topic turns to Latin or Classical poetry, amongst those who don't know about Catullus 😂 Edit: especially when the implication is that people back then were all "cultured" and above such explicit vulgarities hahaha Ahh yes, the noble Romans... _p*dīcābō ego vōs et irr*mābō_

[@AraboNormand]

I was going to write about how the few Hebrew words you use (and yhe effort is appreciated!) have a final accent, not a penultimate one-but i figure with the rage-commenting you're about to get, you can do without. Just glad you're getting back to Hebrew these days!

[@AraboNormand]

i just found out Brill published a grammar of Phenician in its Handbooks of Oriental Studies (HdO), you'd be interested

[@SickGypsy7]

it's remarkable how in some aspects Latin resembles Italian and in other aspects it's closer to Spanish and yet sometimes all together different , thank you for the detailed information about the origins and the correct pronunciations , when i first saw the word AVERE on the screen i immediately thought you were saying the verb TO HAVE in Italian , definitely a lot of food for thought here man

[@drkarmakid]

Ḥawē (stress on the last syllable) can also be used in Mishnaic Hebrew to mean "live!"; however, Ḥayē is the more common way of saying "live!" in Biblical Hebrew. /w/ and /y/ often shift around in Semitic languages... hence, the Jewish way of saying "cheers!" is lechayyim ("to life"), with the Hebrew word's root being identical to the Punic Ḥawē: ḤWY / חוי / 𐤇𐤅𐤉. Great video!

[@guillermorivas7819]

Few Mexican speakers sometimes make this error with placing a "h" where there shouldn't be any. For example, "yo hiba" instead of "yo iba" and "yo lo heche" instead of "yo lo eche". Crazy how we are finding out the true origins of Ave. In Spanish we say "salud" after some body sneezes which means "be well" or "health to you".

[@ruralsquirrel5158]

How do you solve a problem like Maria?...oh, wait...

[@Hoo88846]

Oh mine. I thought I knew languages until I see your channel. Wow. 🤩🤩

[@iberius9937]

Amazing!!! I would never have known such a prominent Latin greeting was of Phoenician/Hebrew origin.

[@cinemint]

All of those languages have a ton of cognates it seems, especially from Phoenician -- remember, all those nations were right next to each other and traded often

[@hexapodc.1973]

Great video as always bro Im just wondering where did you learn to pronounce or speak Punic, been interested in it for a while but I've always imagined due to the lack of Punic sources it'd be very difficult to reconstruct/find out about the language

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

I just used the IPA I found with the words in the etymology. It's probably not correct.

[@hexapodc.1973]

@@polyMATHY_Luke aight I gotcha

[@baerlauchstal]

As we Newcastle United fans say, _Have_ the lads.

[@maxion5109]

Ah, die zauberflöte as intro, a man of culture i see

[@erwinheinrichstromer1156]

8:47 I ain't Italian, but having seen Matteo Renzi's speech, I laughed at that

[@Brandon55638]

Me too. The meme is hilarious. 😂😂

[@cbrusharmy]

Can you do _gaudeamus igitur_ ?

[@DavidAmster]

Thanks! Really interesting! Catullus in Carmen 101 says: accipe fraterno multum manantia fletu, atque in perpetuum, frater, ave atque vale. But Martial (3.95) teases someone for not saying “have.” Numquam dicis have sed reddis, Naevole, semper, quod prior et corvus dicere saepe solet. …… Iam iam tu prior es, Naevole, vincis: have. Is it possible that in Catullus’ time AVE was common and later HAVE was considered correct? Or were both used at the same time? Perhaps a regional difference?

[@mjbalbo]

That may be more related to manuscript tradition than to how Catullus and Martial actually spoke Latin

[@daughter_of_eve04]

Interesting! English isn’t my mother language, so now I’m learning English, Latin, Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic at the sane time! And some other languages in the comments. I like etymology, because you see how much languages are connected with each other and how words develop and change.

[@Kolious_Thrace]

Fascinating! In Orthodoxy I don’t think that we have grammatical mistakes in our hymns and chants… Its curious but, like the video you did about how much can Italians understand Latin, I commented that it would be the same in Hellas if you talked to a stranger in ancient Hellenic! Even though we use a looot of archaic terms in our daily conversation we are not able to speak ancient Hellenic… My grandmother can understand more than 70% of the Divine Liturgy, which is in ancient Hellenic since the Byzantine era but she cannot understand a single individual word in ancient Hellenic if she hears it somewhere else…

[@aerosmithorlilbomber3076]

True Ave Maria is the faulty translation of Frankish latin from the original Greek Gospel in Luke 1:28 "Χαίρε Κεχαριτωμένη" (Rejoice Full of Grace) Note that the Orthodox Koine Greek never said hail but rejoice for the Ευαγγελία or the good news of Salvation of humanity is received with joy of heart. This is why our small Theotokia prayer Θεοτόκε Παρθένε (the original Hail Mary) prove to be superior par excellence compared to filioquist latin prayer.

[@hildegardnessie8438]

@@aerosmithorlilbomber3076”filioquist” lol. The Roman Catholic Church is the one true church.

[@deutschermichel5807]

​@@aerosmithorlilbomber3076imagine still not coping after 1.000 years to not having been asked to include the truth in the Credo. Every Christian all around the world believes in the Filioque because it makes sense and explains the relationship between Jesus and the Holy Spirit, which is missing in Orthodoxy. God is a triune God, he is three but always one. The three persons of God can not be seperated regarding their actions, but only in regards of the relationships they have with one another. Why shouldnʼt Jesus Christus and the Holy Spirit have a relationship? Is God the Father Almighty superior to the other? Orthodoxy in this regards sounds somewhat Arian...

[@oraetlabora1922]

​@@hildegardnessie8438 How? The doctrine has changed.

[@oraetlabora1922]

​@@deutschermichel5807 But the Holy Spirit cannot come from Jesus because Jesus is the result of the Holy Spirit entering Mary.

[@tristanholderness4223]

The name "mary" is often linked to the Aramaic for bitter, but the form really doesn't work out (the root for bitter is m-r-r and so cannot explain the yod in the Hebrew, the lack of gemination on the resh, or the second mem, the root m-r-y "to mutiny" solves the first two, but still can't explain the second mem). More likely, it's actually from an Egyptian name; likewise Moses, for which the supposed Semitic etymology given in the Bible is similarly far-fetched). In both cases, there are common elements of Egyptian theophoric names that match the phonetics pretty closely mry/mrj for Maria (seen in feminine names like Meritamen "beloved of Amun", likely pronounced something more like /mVˈɾaːjaʔjaˈmaːnuw/, a close match for Biblical /mir'ja:m/), and msj for Moses (seen in masculine names like Rameses "Ra is born", likely pronounced something more like /ˈɾiːʕaʔ məˈsiːˌsuw/ in Middle Egyptian, a close match to Biblical /mo'ʃe/, especially as Hebrew usually borrows foreign s as /ʃ/, likely reflecting a retracted pronunciation). Whilst undergoing ethnogenesis centred around a new henotheistic religion, the foreign deities' names would have been removed from these progenitors' names to make them more acceptable (for similar processes, cf Ish-Bosheth "man of shame" < Ish-Baal "man of Baal", and Beelzebub "lord of flies" < Ba'al-Zebul "Baal the Lord")

[@ajthebestguy9th]

Perhaps (M-R-R) and the root ('-M-M), meaning mother combined to mean bitter mother

[@tristanholderness4223]

@@ajthebestguy9th you've still got explain the lack of gemination in the resh, and the presence of the yod then, you'd just have swapped the problem of where the second mem comes from with a problem of where the aleph went

[@decimusausoniusmagnus5719]

Lucius, tocayo, resuelve mi incógnita por favor: en la oración del Ave María decimos ventris en lugar de ventricis Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventris tui Jesu. Es correcto eso? Yo antes creía que mi misal estaba mal y lo corregía a ventricis, y así lo digo hasta ahora, pero tengo la duda. Gracias.

[@mjbalbo]

Venter ventris, it's not wrong.

[@ironinquisitor3656]

Had no idea it was a borrowed word.

[@AndromedaCripps]

Interesting!! You do a lot on ecclesiastical vs Classical Latin but I’ve always been interested in you discussing Latin in music! Yes, the vast majority of Latin in music is in sacred music and is therefore likely written in and most properly pronounced in Ecclesiastical Latin, but at least as far back as the past century if not much further, there is a wealth of classical choral and other vocal music written in Latin not taken from biblical or ecclesiastical sources! I’ve always been curious to see you look into some of those!

[@b43xoit]

Can we have any stanza from the portion of the Carmina Burana that Carl Orff set to music, with proper length marks and reconstructed classical pronunciation?

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

The original poetry is stress based and imitates German, so it's just not possible. It would be a completely new poem.

[@b43xoit]

@@polyMATHY_Luke How about something from the ordinary of the mass?

[@Brandon55638]

​​​​​@@b43xoitWhen It comes to the Mass text, more often than not, composers used the stress rules of Italian for rhythmic consistency. You are totally allowed to use phonemic vowel length as a basis if you want to write an original piece based on the Mass text. The rhythm and the music will feel different, but that's the fundamental nature of Latin.

[@thespasm86]

Interesting note that Hawwah in Arabic (pronounced very similarly to Hawwah in biblical Hebrew) is the name of Eve in the bible.

[@LolTollhurst]

I really liked the Eva Wall-e part :3 A gentle thought for how wide communication is, depicted by two little robots who don't speak with words

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

I adore that movie

[@sameash3153]

Wow. I never even questioned whether ave was not an imperative.

[@Christian-ft1pt]

Hi Luke! I noticed in this video you transcribed the long e as the mid vowel /e̞/. If I remember correctly, in your video about the Calabrese pronunciation you transcribed the e vowel as the open /ɛ/ and o vowel as the open /ɔ/. I was wondering if your views on Classical pronunciation have changed and you think Latin had a 5-vowel system similar to Spanish or Modern Greek with true mid vowels. You might have a video addressing this that I don't know about. I have recently purchased Lingua Latina per se Illustrata and wanted to know what the best pronunciation to use would be. Thanks!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

No, my views are the same. These are phonetically identical; Italians for example can’t tell the difference at all. The best pronunciation I recommend you CMD hear in the new videos of the same in my LLPSI playlist on ScorpioMartianus

[@Christian-ft1pt]

@@polyMATHY_Luke That's very interesting. So, Italians can't tell the difference between the mid vowel and open vowel and the sounds are seen as the same? I was curious because I speak Spanish and I didn't know if I could use the same/similar vowels in my Latin pronunciation. Thanks for letting me know, that's helpful!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Yes, use the Spanish ones, as they are just fine. Thanks!