Messana Radiant Heating & Cooling Finally Installed

A bit of a technical walk-through of our new radiant heating and cooling system. Big thanks to Messana Radiant Cooling for their support of this incredible system. Go check out their product line at radiantcooling...
More info on the system on our blog: positiveenergy...
Also thanks to Greg Cross for his installation support, SpacePak for their support of the mechanicals for this system, as well as all of the hard work and taco consumption by our Positive Energy team who took time out of their busy weekends to install.
Enjoy!

[@ML-lg4ky]

I think a follow up video explaining why this type of system saves you money would be awesome. Heat pump technology is very efficient and cost much less to operate than traditional equipment. Cheers

[@johnbecich9540]

I'm a southern Californian who lives in a "hot place" about 4 months of each year. We have some humidity in late August, but nuthin' like y'all have down there in Texas. I like your ideas immensely, and am considering a "cool ceiling" retrofit to my mid-century home, only upstairs in one notoriously hot room that happens to be my home office... on the sunny southwest side of the house. I have already implemented radiant barriers in the attic, by virtue of new roof... just recently. Next summer will tell, if that improves living conditions, by virtue of cooler attic. I might do more radiant barrier work; i.e., aluminum foil in the right places. I have new ventilation tactics employed in the attic. If you haven't figured out my preference yet, I'm definitely into projects that keep people cool while consuming the smallest possible amount of electricity. Passive tactics are the top priority. While your tactic isn't fully passive, it's excellent and tempting. I would like to know more about the "heat pump" you run ("3 ton") outdoors. Does that compress any freon, etc?? What is the wattage draw, when it runs? My SEER 10 4 ton air conditioner draws 5kW when running, which is rather horrible. I also have drop shades and upgraded windows, which KEEP THE SUN OUT of the rooms, in the first place. Actually, we rarely use the a/c but I run fans a lot at night, a rather tedious process that needs replacement.

[@calebpoirier751]

excellent description! really understand the system much better now! many thanks

[@TheoneandonlyRAH]

We need an update video please!

[@rrosario7735]

We are installing one of these systems for a client on the East Coast. So far... it's been a pain in the ass. They even sent a guy from California to help us out and we still arent running. Our set up is probably more complicated than most but... Scary stuff!

[@owenmcclave6457]

I live on the east coast and looking at installing this. Is there a way to get in contact to discuss your issues in more detail?

[@peterkotara]

Your explanation is excellent. I had radiant ceiling heating (electric membrane) installed in the bathrooms of my last house in Auckland and I absolutely loved it. Ever since I have wondered if chilled water tubing could be used to cool the space (or occupants as you have informed me). Since moving to Blenheim, I have access to 7-8 degrees c spring water (Blenheim floats on an enormous snow fed aquifer), I would love to incorporate something like this into the new house (Yet to be built).

[@mariusm3595]

The beauty of RADIANT. WOW

[@luisca92]

I love the way you explained things.

[@majbthrd]

I like the load-shedding potential: the chilling of the coolant is somewhat decoupled from when it is used, and this ought to allow some flexibility in managing such electrical loads.

[@DarrenD777]

+Peter Lawrence yeah, in a large scale commercial application they could have very large insulated tanks, and run the cooling fans at night during "cheap hours" (assuming the building is still grid-tied).

[@nicholasneuwirth]

Fantastic stuff. I'm amazed by the efficiency of these systems.

[@ryanj2007]

Very cool system, no pun intended. Very technically savvy, Love the concept. I do have a rather large list of concerns about this systems real world viability. Clearly this is a sophisticated system that I am sure is very efficient. What that means in layman‘s terms is expensive. I would imagine that if you didn’t have “the hook up“ which you clearly do. This system would easily be close to $20,000 installed, if not more. You must also factor in the cost of service and repair ,which this system will inevitably need. I would bet my left nut that a $1000 repair bill, anytime this system has a mechanical failure, would not be out of the ordinary. especially considering the specialized service technician required. Also you mentioned, in the video, that it was a 3 ton system. In the comments I noticed you said it was on a 2000 square-foot house. That equates to just over 650 ft.² per ton, which means this homes insulation and air tightness is really just barely above average. It would seem that, anyone considering spending this kind of money, on this type of a system, must consider if that money could be better spent improving the buildings envelope. With proper building techniques and today’s technology, it is not uncommon to have a home with a cooling load at 1000 ft.² per ton. At that point, a more traditional HVAC system, or hell even some strategically placed window units could adequately and efficiently heat and cool that home. With significantly less costs for initial installation, service over the years, and eventual replacement. I think it might be slightly misleading to put a video out about a system like this and insinuate that it somehow removes heat from a building more efficiently, with out first addressing the buildings ability to keep the heat from getting in in the first place. By the way if the system works so well, why do you need ducted systems also installed in the home? And you might want to tell your installers not to blow the discharge from one condensing unit straight into another condensing unit directly across from it. Sorry for The rant, but sometimes it’s hard to watch these smart guys think so dumb. P.S. also if cold water through the ceiling works so well, why not pump it straight down into the ground 250 feet or so which would cool it to55° ish for free and pump it up through your ceilings? Especially in Texas

[@akilfahd]

@ryanj2007 I would’ve love to have read a response

[@aundreoldacre6979]

Great system. How much does a full radiant heating/cooling system cost for a house of this size?

[@petermistelbacher8906]

What if you were to hang these panels from the wall? You could frame them and make them like a piece of art. That way they might be able to be used for both heating and cooling .? You could just use a heat pump that produces hot and cold water

[@PeterKimRealtor]

Just wondering, do you need to have a separate hot water system? Or, can it handle domestic hot water, too?

[@mariusm3595]

I hope this will be the future of cooling...

[@bonnierussell7824]

Heard you could run these things are pure solar energy. I don't suppose something like this could be scaled down to a class c motor home could it? There needs to be an alternative to those roof mounted ac units.

[@HowToEverything]

I am in South Carolina and have a radiant heat system only (70 years old original to house) and no central air. Had multiple mechanical contractors come out to see about modifying existing system to cool vs ripping everything out and putting central heat and air. No one even wants to mess with the boiler I have they don’t even want to take it out to put in the ac they want me to take it out. I feel as though modifying it if I found the right engineer would be cheaper and more efficient than an all electric hvac unit. Any suggestions?

[@amschind]

I assume that the system is heat pump agnostic so long as the thermal battery is sufficiently sized, such that one could utilize a ground source heat pump?

[@johnbeckman8916]

It seems like it would be easy enough to add a "hot tank" in addition to your "cold tank" and leverage "free" hot water in the warmer months for residential systems. This would also decrease the load on your external heat exchanger.

[@positiveenergy1565]

You're absolutely right. The interconnected potential of heat rejection and exchange is remarkable. In some parts of the world, this is already happening with appliances - toasters and ovens rejecting excess heat into hot water, etc.

[@Cesarini77]

How do you control humidity inside the house? What kind of climate or weather is needed (besides hot) to replace the traditional air conditioning system with a radiant cooling system?

[@kentaltobelli1840]

Radiant cooled systems require a separate dehumidification strategy to maintain a comfortable relative humidity. Then, the thermostat would also measure dew point and ensure that the cooling panels do not drop below the dew point of the space (to prevent condensation).

[@james10739]

I do work in Austin sometimes and we do low voltage stuff but generally when we install speakers we cut holes in the ceiling and I hope they tell us about this so we can install brackets

[@positiveenergy1565]

I highly doubt you'd see this system on a project and not know about it. The majority of the panels would be blank anyway and we'd strategize their placement around the lighting/speaker plan.

[@Martinko_Pcik]

Cool, it is an opposite of in-floor heating system. Both very pleasant for occupants.

[@OU8Aspark]

What are the extreme cases? Can you have it keep you cool to 60 degrees F when it is 150 degrees F outside?

[@IandiBoats]

Is it possible to use a geothermal Loop to cool a concrete slab without a heat pump? If the ground temperature is 55 to 65 degrees and we have a simple circulating pump will that transfer the you lower temperature to the slab? How do I calculate that efficiency?

[@coreyreitenaur5693]

3 questions 1. You say it has sheetrock covering it. The sheetrock must not have that paper backing to it just in case it were to sweat correct? 2. Air to water heat pump? What brand do you have there and it takes absolutely no freon like a central air unit would? 3. What fluid in the lines that is mixed with the water?

[@billyvnilly]

I enjoyed your discussion of the ceiling panels and am interested in radiant home heating and cooling with two sets of circuits, floor heating and ceiling cooling in a one store home. Main question is, how loud are those ceiling panels? Do you hear flowing water in the walls as if someone is constantly flushing a toilet? This is through 5/8 drywall or 3/8? Or since its mounted to the panel, perhaps the sturdier 5/8ths isn't needed for the ceiling. Do you design 300 ft circuits as with floors?

[@benveenema]

Would a house with radiant heating and cooling have less, more, or same insulation needs?

[@Hybridog]

So after a few months of miserable heat and extreme humidity (Harvey) here in Austin, what are your initial thoughts on the cooling aspects of the system?

[@positiveenergy1565]

It works well!

[@treystills]

Awesome video! Thank you so much for sharing. First learned about Messana from your podcast and knew its what I was going to do next. Could you please elaborate on how the system stays above the dew point? Thanks again!

[@positiveenergy1565]

Thanks! Glad to know you're enjoying the podcast. We had fun installing it. So the system actually has some pretty sophisticated controls and sensors that monitor the environmental conditions. This allows the system to ride the dew point and never condensate. Of course, in a hot humid climate like Austin, we always recommend dedicated dehumidification and we already had a ducted dehumidifier capable of dealing with the latent load in our office. All of this points to the need to have a really good design in place when pursuing this kind of system. Also, be sure you've got the budget for this! That's probably the most important first piece to figure out.

[@al-arafathossainhimel8428]

T Willey

[@graysonsmith7031]

Is there a limit to the radiant cooling. I imagine in a 90F room that you wouldn't feel comfortable, but if you can feel like its 70 if it's actually 75, than that could be very helpful.

[@59seank]

Would this system work in Chicago? Will the water going outside to the condenser freeze up?

[@positiveenergy1565]

Great question! Short answer is yes, it'll absolutely work. There are many examples of radiant systems all over Europe that deal with the freezing issue by supplementing the water with a glycol solution. We didn't do that here because as I type this at 9:30AM it's already pushing 80 degrees here in Austin.

[@59seank]

You don't get freezing temperatures in Austin during January?

[@positiveenergy1565]

Occasionally. The folks at Messana seemed to think we won't need glycol. This first year is a year for us to data log the entire system too, so we're looking at it like a big experiment for now. If things freeze, we'll then know for certain that glycol is necessary and we can add it to our system then.

[@59seank]

I look forward to your results. I like any system that heats and cools silently. I've always wondered why in the Chicago area, where the deeper ground temperature is cool, we couldn't just pump water directly through pipes in the ground to cool in us in the summer.

[@icanreachit]

Shouldn't glycol also alleviate any bacterial load that may be in the system? Alternatively you would need a 100% sterile environment and likely some form of silver coil to kill off anything wanting to live in the system. Any algae or bacteria would build up on the inner lining of the loops and create contact resistance.

[@tjam4229]

Would this work better in low humidity environment like phoenix? Seems like cooling would work well with geothermal ground temps

[@charliedevine6869]

Doesn't 90% of the heat in the room come from outside in through the window glass and walls? What do you do about dehumidification? Do you have a separate dehumidifier for that?

[@chrisE815]

Yes

[@siddharthbhopatrao5861]

You, Sir...are amazing!!! Made my day

[@Jedward108]

I got quotes from three contractors to install an air-to-water heat pump to heat water for our hydronic heating system as well as domestic hot water. They all recommend different heat pumps: Chilltrix, Spacepak and Sanden. Hard to compare quality and durability of these three. Anybody have suggestions?

[@DarrenD777]

I wonder how hot the air is coming from the air to water heat pump in the summer time when it's the hottest inside/outside (perhaps 3PM or 5PM)? What I'm driving at is: the fans are blowing hot air on the wall of the building - presumably adding heat to that wall. Am I wrong? Just curious. I mean, if I'm going to be as efficient as possible, then, I need to know if my observation makes any difference.

[@anthony01571]

OUTSTANDING : o ....

[@vijayakumarp7593]

Appreciate if you could highlight how this system will be adoptable and economically feasible/ advantageous in Indian scenario. For example here a conventional split AC of 1 ton will consume about 1.1 kilowat per hour ( 1.1 units an hour ) Ambient temperature in Kerala in hot summer days are around 35/ 40 Deg C. And humidity 75- 85% Please note Units I mentioned are in metric system. Please respond at your earliest convenience. Regards.

[@melanieaway]

You said you were shooting the heat to the pool - can you explain that or include a link to your white pages

[@DarrenD777]

Who is "shooting the heat to the pool" and what does it mean? Does it mean that the hot water would be used to heat a swimming pool? If so, that sounds like a good idea!

[@deadfred821]

He said he "could" have a loop that would absorb or "shed" heat into the pool. Not that he does...

[@d4mdcykey]

Very interesting system and setup, however please look into balancing out the sound levels and not using background music, it is not only counter-productive to your purposes but needlessly distracting.

[@shahsmerdis]

Hi there. Im considering adding a chiller to my home system which has ac rated fan coils. Do you guys do remote designs and sizing ? I have a rough idea but kinda not my trade so looking for pro to help me out . Thanks

[@positiveenergy1565]

We offer full HVAC engineering services for residential projects all over the world.

[@citizenenak]

Would this system be as effective if one was to have an equal amount of surface area on a vertical application? My design currently calls for a walnut flooring ceiling treatment which requires clear access to trusses. It would seem any ceiling treatment that requires fastening is out of the question with likely restrictions on any measurable material covering the drywall.

[@MustPassTruck]

Avant Arch Messana tech told me their panels can be installed vertically as well. But, quoted me over half my 2000sqft homes value for system materials.

[@daxdesai]

How would this work in Houston? Our tap water isn’t very cold in summer. Wondering about effectiveness if the differential isn’t high.

[@DarrenD777]

+Dax Desai It's a closed loop. No water is added once the sys is setup. The cooling happens at the outside radiator - *exactly like* your car's engine radiator. No matter the weather outside, the radiator can pull heat out of the pipe thus cooling the water in the closed loop.

[@dickhorner]

Wanted info. Couldn't understand much of the spoken words due to the mixing-in of the noise (aka muzak)!

[@melanieaway]

Game changer. Haptics in HVAC - cool (oh the pun)

[@mariusm3595]

This is simply amazing

[@ek9772]

By the way have you tried changing the one or two inch insulation styrofoam material for cork?

[@positiveenergy1565]

No we haven't. The panels are key turn and manufactured by Messana.

[@ek9772]

Hi Positive Energy - Integrated Mechanical Design, Show the following info to Messanna: www.onegreenplanet.org/news/world-health-organization-upgraded-human-cancer-risk-styrofoam/ www.thermacork.com/ceilings-and-other-apllications/ They might reevaluate their choice of materials without compromising their performance.

[@kuietjunkie9387]

How exactly that input cold water gets cooled? ("Oh, for that we use plain' ol refrigerator😂")

[@chrisgeary4624]

The Spacepak heat pump he ends with.

[@vincenta6440]

Not sure if I have commented on this video or not but I have gone through this video and saw a flaw in your system it's kind of major depending on how you look at it. If you use a propane freezer system for the outgoing water and coil the outgoing water inside the propane freezer it will circulate the warm water turning to be a chilled water for incoming water for the system to redo itself as you've already explained how the system works. Basically it is just cutting down on your extra materials by half, replacing the need of electricity for propane, and hopefully saving you some extra money and resources the only overhead is the price of a propane freezer is at about $1,000 and a connection of propane to the propane freezer. Essentially it would work much the same way as radiant heating but for primary cooling applications, it would be the use of propane that is the common element for both radiant heating and cooling homes needing to conserve electricity. I hope this all makes sense. But yeah a propane freezer with the pex tubing coiled inside to chill the water will greatly reduce electrical costs for customers looking to save and conserve money.

[@Develish31]

are you interested in doing work out in the Caribbean?

[@RebelStateSovereign]

Excellent

[@awesometopics1988]

wow seriously great idea ..good thinking ..be the change u want to see ..and cool or heat the people

[@avgStan1234]

Why not just add the heat to a hot water system?

[@tony39802]

So spend less keeping a house cool in warmer weather because cold sinks but in cold weather heat rising works against you for the same mechanism? To me it looks as though it would in theory work well with underfloor heating but instal costs would be significantly higher for two different systems?

[@draketheelf]

yes and no, if you are talking actual air temp yes the heat will rise and collect around the ceiling, but radiant systems are more focused on the radiation of IR to heat occupants, its like those heat lamps you see outdoors at bars and everything they dont focus on heating the air but instead emitting enough IR to heat the people around them. Also since the panels are in the ceiling not the floor they can handle temps alot higher than you could have running through the floor since there is no contact with people (bare feet) so they can be more efficient. Either way though I would like to see one of these systems heating in person and see how effective it is.

[@tomshaw661]

super genius!

[@RealityTrailers]

Interesting. But only use background music during introduction, using a tune during whole video isn't very professional.

[@ryanbrand3946]

I really want that thing sitting in the middle of my yard

[@chadparker8198]

I’m in Austin Texas and I want to store freeze dried food in my garage. If I built a well insulated box as high as a food bucket would there be a thermal exchange from the concrete cool enough to get food buckets to 75,76 F? …in the heat of summer? Thanks!

[@joecox9958]

no clear image on how system consistent, efficiency and limitation.

[@jonosterman2878]

Or cost

[@ek9772]

I have an idea for a source of heat and cold that works well with solar and battery storage, and which I think would be outstanding for PEX radiant cooling (on the ceiling) and heating (on a floor PEX or with radiators). kzbin.info/www/bejne/h3KVo6GtZbSAm6M multiaqua.com/index.php/chillers/mhrc-ae You can add solar hot water collectors to this unit and an ice storage tank as well as a hot water tank. www.calmac.com/icebank-energy-storage-model-c This will provide hot water year round (day and night) plus it will provide thermal energy for cooling and heating. COP is over 7. Works well with solar panels, and it is designed to slowly sip energy rather than gulp it. This will increase the life span of the investment in inverters and batteries. To make sense financially on this unit plus the tanks: 1- Deduct from it the normal cost of an existing or traditional HVAC unit, then 2- Calculate the difference in energy consumption, and project it for the expected useful life. 3- If you are using solar panels, deduct the smaller amount of panels required vs. the amount required with a traditional or existing HVAC system. Let me know what you think.

[@denesdolor975]

i will follow your channel.. educational .... ill share my idea soon

[@landunlocked2423]

You’re doing feat work

[@JohnMark-bx1ks]

Wow...l

[@MustPassTruck]

Messana is too expensive for now.

[@noelohashirodriguez]

Waw

[@denniss1211]

Stop the blasted music!

[@pennyweigel2869]

SO wish you would lose the background music…takes away from your presentation and my focus.

[@positiveenergy1565]

Thanks for the feedback and your focus. :)

[@edwinandujar9099]

You need to fire your electrician

[@jonosterman2878]

You should box up that duct, man is it ugly sitting in the room like that.

[@positiveenergy1565]

Thanks for your feedback, Jon.

[@eugenes9751]

That will sweat.

[@mseadorf]

It has temperature sensors so the panel never drops below the dew point. This system only provides sensible cooling, you have to have a separate system to deal with latent cooling (dehumidification). The control sequence is more complicated but the energy consumption is minimal compared to a standard system.

[@eugenes9751]

@@mseadorf The dew point outside is different from inside, and different in every room, depending on local temperature and humidity...... So measuring it outside is a bit pointless unless you've got all the windows open. What happens when a tea kettle boils or someone opens a bathroom door that had high humidity? Air conditioners use defrosting coils and drain the condensate away, this can't do that since the moisture is now in your walls.

[@mseadorf]

@@eugenes9751 The temp sensors are measuring the interior dew point, increasing, decreasing radiant panel temps and or shutting off all together to avoid condensation. Yes as you state the temp and dew point can vary for each room, that is why a properly designed system has to have sensors and controls for each room. To employ a radiant cooling system you need a more complex control system, its not a singular system, you have to have a separate system to deal with the humidity. A high moisture room such as a bathroom needs to be managed, one way is a sealed shower system with exhaust fans on humidity sensors with controlled / conditioned make up air. A boiling tea kettle will produce moisture in the air but your dehumidifier should be able to manage this load. Overall, its a much more complex approach than just throwing in an air handler, however the energy reduction is huge especially if you use geothermal for your chilling unit.

[@mseadorf]

Here is a great radiant cooling design manual from Uponor that goes into tons of detail on how to design both radiant heating andf cooling systems, control strategies ect. www.uponorpro.com/~/media/extranet/files/manuals/nonoptimized/radiant%20cooling%20design%20manual%20-%20rcdm.ashx?version=070220180330

[@eugenes9751]

@@mseadorf Seems to me, like this is 20x more complicated than it needs to be, and you'd need to measure the temp/humidity inside the walls as well, not just the rooms. You can still use geothermal with an air handler and a heat pump. It's their way of distributing the cold air that's dumb. Geothermal is generally designed to cool and heat, so are they suggesting using radiant heating in the ceiling as well??? If the pipes start to sweat in the walls without anybody noticing, your house will be covered in mold relatively quickly. Who will warranty such a product flaw?

[@SuperFredAZ]

I am pretty sure you'd be dead at 290 K, that is 17 C or 62 F, you are much closer to 310 K

[@hayesm665]

Sell, sell sell....... ::) just get a plain air conditioning unit and it works in Chicago as well.

[@DarrenD777]

+Catalin M This should cost less, and you won't have 55 degree air blowing on your neck/cranium. Also, the temperature inside should be the same (+/- 1 degree Far) all the time, instead of increasing and then decreasing by 20 degrees (the HVAC is blowing uncomfortably COLD air on you).