Tearing Down a Pair of 351 Small Blocks: Windsor vs Cleveland - HorsePower S16, E10

[@PowerNationTV]

We'll continue to post these episodes here on KZbin. If you can't wait for the rest of the build, visit our site to binge-watch: www.powernationtv.com/shows/horsepower

[@hessxpress3016]

PowerNation thankyou for not stuffing in LS bullshit into a ford episode! been watching for years

[@hessxpress3016]

Chris J i respect the LS just wanna watch something different

[@Happyfacehotwheels]

@Rick 1776-1970 What's wrong with land yacht? A Yacht is big boat that can carry a lot of people in comfort and style. When you are on a yacht it makes you feel good! Just cruising through the water. A land yacht is a compliment. I enjoy the big cars! Cruising down the road, hitting potholes like they were nothing. It feels like you're riding a cloud. I had a 76 Cadillac coupe DeVille and it was one of my many landyachts over the years. I rather have a Yacht then a canoe !

[@matthewwilson5388]

@Rick 1776-1970 no it's called a mercury montego

[@dorfus71]

Sorry not going to subscribe to your paid site. Damn shame as this one of the better episodes produced. Too bad there is no way to watch it for free, I guess I'll have to wait to see if it gets uploaded to KZbin. Don't give me the line that I can watch it with commercials because I can't, completely locked out.

[@dsgp7835]

My oldest sister dated and eventually married a guy who owned a brand new 70 Torino GT with the 4 barrel 4 bolt main Cleveland. Dark blue, black interior, automatic trans. He would come to our house for Sunday dinner and would toss me the keys and a couple bucks and send me out for an eight pack of 16 oz Dr Peppers for the family. I was 16 years old with a lust for horsepower and that Torino was a monster. The store was just down the street but it would take 45 minutes for me to return. Every intersection with a stop sign had two black tire patches running through them. He knew what I was doing but never said a word. Fond fond memories.

[@mindeloman]

My dad had a 351C 4V 1970 Mach 1. It was a factory 4 speed car. I was about 6 years old when he brought it home for the first time. It had a blown engine but the car was cherry. He paid almost nothing for it. He took it to just south of wild on the engine build. 11:1 compression, Oversized the valves, sourced Ford's "lemans" rods, (could still get them at the ford dealer, balanced all the moving parts, big thumpy solid lift cam, ported and polished heads, ported and port matched aluminum high rise intake, massive 1050 dominator carb, full length headers to 3" exhaust. He built it to move some air. Man, my first ride in that car he nailed it. It wa like the hand of god pushing back in the seat. Stupid powerful. My best memory of that car: dad was out of town for work. Mom's thunderbird would not start to take us to school - battery dead. So, she grabbed the mustang's keys and loaded all three of us kids in the car. We were sitting at a red light and i guess she got distracted, probably by one of us. The car behind us honked. Mom looked up, and the light had turned green. She quickly slammed it into first gear and just dumped the clutch. She boiled the tires and it fishtailed all over the place going in to lane to lane. She finally got it hauled down and stopped just in time for the next red light. She was shaking so bad. Just scared the piss out of her. First and only time i ever heard my mom swear and it was the big one too. In exasperation she said, "FUCK!" The real Insult to injury - A camaro rolled up full of teenagers looking shocked, and the driver yelled, "Jesus Christ, lady." She never drove that car again. I always tell that story as "the greatest burnout i've ever seen."

[@guyletourneau6167]

Best mom story like forever

[@TH3C001]

Not matter how much it scared her and no matter how unprepared she was, your mom was a badass for that one lol!

[@davidlunsford6155]

Reminds me of my step mom when my Dad let her drive his 55 Chevy, with him in it with us. No way he'd ever let her take his baby alone. At a red light and a boy next to her I guess gave her that want a race look because my Dad said...No! Don't do it. 😂 She did. O he was upset..🤣 but she had the biggest smile.

[@rimaman8681]

lol go to spec savers

[@N8Catona]

Thats too funny

[@briandietrich1373]

I always loved the stock "Powered by Ford" valve covers on the 351/400 Cleveland and M engiens!

[@jedk9523]

the old 80s 302/351 cfi H.O. ford motors came with special aluminum valve covers that said that.

[@6226superhurricane]

6cyl and windsor had it long before cleveland

[@Terminxman]

The older style FE ones are cool too, there were two different FE valve covers that said Power By Ford

[@timmayer8723]

That is the MOST upscale wrecking yard I have ever seen. Organized and clean.

[@driver3025]

The way it SHOULD BE. They used to teach it. Cleanliness was STANDARD WORKSHOP PRACTICE.

[@jamesflores9456]

@@driver3025 you mean there always wasn't a pile of alternators and starters you had to sift though to find the one you need?

[@fawnlliebowitz1772]

Engine hoist!!!!

[@rockbay79]

I am no mechanic. The most labor I've ever performed on my vehicles is motor oil and filter change, check fluids, change air filter, all very minor stuff. Most of the stuff presented in this video is way over my head. However, I find it fascinating when these men rebuild these engines with performance parts. I love this channel.

[@stevereinhart4067]

Look at all them rust free cars, God I hate road salt.

[@paulhoskins7852]

Me too!!!! The salt belt SUCKS!!

[@tdrewman]

I live in South Florida when we take parts off they just fall off.

[@hank1556]

***laughes in Confederate***

[@todddenio3200]

I live in Minnesota so know exactly how you feel. Unfortunately states like Florida are bad as well because the salt is right in the air

[@baby-sharkgto4902]

I live in Vermont. Salt and or brine is put on the roads in the winter and automobiles definitely rust at an alarming rate.

[@stevenspaziani9159]

I had a 351 Cleveland in a 69 Torino fast back and my god was that thing a beast, it would eat Z28 camaros and it was stock with a 2 barrel, only thng it had was headers. The 351 Windsor is also a very goos motor put together right.

[@stevenspaziani9159]

@Steve Sosebee Of all the cars I've had over the years I miss that one the most. I'm in the process of doing a 351 Windsor for an 88 Bronco, new HP cam, roller lifters, roller rockers and GT40 heads. leaning towards an after market fuel injection instead of the 95 fuel injection that came out of the truck the motor came out of. Hoping it runs as good as the 302 in my 88 Bronco plow rat I did a similar rebuild to.

[@lewisdeclouette6342]

Seeing you guys tearing the motor down and improving them never gets old

[@gutz1981]

The 351 Cleveland is revered in Australia as one of the most legendary V8's.

[@ericouellette5293]

I had a 351w in my old 76 motorhome I had. For being over 10,000 pounds the 351 moved it pretty good. She did have a drinking problem she loved her gas. Had a 103,000 miles on it when I got it and she ran great.

[@Autojones]

You can get a 72 to 87 RV or truck by any of the big three for super cheap because those years they all had super low compression (typically below 8:1) to meet federal emissions standards. but it makes the engines feel very lazy and is not good for mileage. and when the feds mandated ethanol in gas that made it worse. Alcohol and low compression are death for millage (and it don't help the performance either) For those that want a cheap truck or RV (and can work on them) it's totally worth it to get a late 70's truck/RV , pull the engine, rebuild with flat top pistons, curve the distributor, upgrade exhaust, ignition set up, cam etc. it's very easy to wake up those engines and get better millage and way better performance.

[@moose45cal]

I can’t wait for the rest of this series! I have the Windsor in my daily driver with 212k miles and no problems. And I have a cleveland to drop into my 69 mustang... can’t wait for good build tips for both.

[@paulhoskins7852]

Sweet! What's your daily driver?

[@basshead.]

Fastback?

[@moose45cal]

Daily is a 1993 f150 4x4 extended cab. And yes the 69 is a fastback. Just an M code sportsroof that I’m doing a full resto on.

[@basshead.]

Noice

[@Iconhulk]

Windsor

[@BigEightiesNewWave]

My neighbor back in the day had a 351C/Mustang...never forget those intake ports when he built the motor.

[@NewtonWashinton]

In 1972 a friend of mine bought 2 new Mercury Cougars 1 was a basic cougar with 351 Windsor, the other was 351 Cleveland with dual exhaust and 4 bbl carb. Driving these 2 cars was like night and day, huge power difference with the 351 Cleveland way exceeding the Windsor 351.

[@fawnlliebowitz1772]

Cam and 4bbl was the major difference in his case. Clevelands had a nasty reputation of over heating.

[@scottcarr1534]

They were 100 times better than any of the Windsor's... the Windsor's had head issues, constantly... pretty much junk unless you reworked the heads and put, dare I say it, some Chevy parts in them...

[@scottcarr1534]

@@fawnlliebowitz1772 Not even close to true. I had SEVERAL 351 Cleveland's, NOT ONE, ever, over-heated. I think you're thinking of the junk Windsor...

[@fawnlliebowitz1772]

2 bbl, lower compression, vs 4bbl duels taller gears most likely, I would hope there would be a difference. Now if you had a Boss (which was a Windsor) you would see even a bigger difference.

[@scottcarr1534]

@@fawnlliebowitz1772 The BOSS engine was decent, true. But STILL had issues that the Cleveland simply didn't. Hell... I've forgotten more about building, than what most of these guys will ever know... Simple, as that.

[@UltraVert]

Those engines sounded incredible once finished.. you guys do some really great work.

[@waynesitarz424]

I worked in the Windsor foundry and engine plant each for 6 months around 1973 making 351s.(money for school)

[@steverussell6642]

Cool 👍

[@Ghostysti]

Wayne Sitarz ford falcons

[@alexstepanski]

Ford stuff. Finally something I’ll watch.

[@fordnut4914]

Yeah me too.they burn you out on LS gm stuff

[@donaldkinder6716]

Sounds like you like junk, Ford v8s nothing but junk. Blowed up many ford v8 engines, nothing but boat anchors...

[@randyostrander4861]

I'm a Mopar guy, but I did have a 78 f150 with the Cleveland in it by far the only ford motor I ever liked

[@CoyoteFTW]

Randy O - then you never drove the rest, just a brainwashed fool.

[@donaldkinder6716]

@@CoyoteFTW drove thousands of new ford super duty trucks, working for jct would never buy one, ford diesel engines nothing but junk....

[@midnightriderize]

My first glance was always at the valve covers, as they are so different. This still leaves the Cleveland vs Modified question, but from and old Ford rebuilder you guys covered every difference that I knew of, plus building a formidable street engine. Thanks for posting this!

[@jeffhead4632]

I love the delivery of high octane condensed information per minute.

[@ryanmcneill1919]

God love the Windsor. My grand pappy had a 1978 Ford F-150 Ranger with a 5.8 V8 Windsor. A truck that took a lot a hurt but always showed a lot of love. I still have that truck till today and keep her going.

[@markrounds6302]

Loved it. My dad had a 351w in his boat, and it was a solid engine.

[@Iconhulk]

What I've always heard.. Windsor > Cleveland

[@prushimush]

Cleveland was better than Windsor for power until aftermarket heads hit the scene in the 80s thanks to its canted valve heads. There are also 30 years of Windsor engines out there, compared to only 4 short years of Cleveland engines. Cleveland engines belong in restored 70-74 cars, a Windsor with aftermarket parts is a much better choice for anything else.

[@bryanhallman8183]

@@prushimush Jack Roush ran Mercury Capri's with 351W's in the early 80's. Ford's NASCAR teams were using 351-based engines, as well.

[@prushimush]

@@bryanhallman8183 Roush/Yates D3 heads are one of the big dollar heads you can get for a Windsor engine, they were ran in NASCAR as well. With so many good heads available these days I'm not sure why anyone would build a Cleveland, aside from originality.

[@brentboswell1294]

Suprised..boat engine manufacturers continued to get Cleveland blocks (from Australia) after they were discontinued in the 'states...almost always the 2V version though.

[@coupe662]

Love this. Proud owner of an oldschool Clevor 302 boss build in my 65 mustang. It has 351 Cleveland heads 2V, 302 windsor block. Holley double pumper 4bbl. Roller cam. Reinforced C4. It can really handle high RPM. Currie rear axle 31 splines. Was built and raced in Sanfran where I imported the 65 mustang the engine sits in. It had been sitting for 25+ years! Been driving it for 3 years now. Had to change the rear axle gears to 3:00 because I wanted to lover the rpm while doing over 60mph on the freeway. I love taking longer trips, and the mustang still ripps if I wanna get busy🤣. Again thanks. For this video🚀 Take care everybody watching this clip and make sure to do what you love, be kind, and make damn sure to drive your Ford mustangs.🕶🏴‍☠️🐎

[@shaunzimmerman661]

The real boss 302 used the 4v m code quenched chambered heads. But still a bad ass build always wanted to do this as they use to make the street boss intake to do so. Idk if it's still made haven't saw them in years but to find a actual boss 302 intake for the 4v heads I guess is unrealistic

[@coupe662]

@@shaunzimmerman661 yes. I have an intake made especially made for this option 302 block and 351 cleveland heads. Its called street boss i reckon.

[@texasinnovativeperformance6439]

Very informative the old sbf is under appreciated and I love how you make them shine

[@richardcarroll3973]

What do ya do about a filler on a 92 Ford Ranger that won't take the gas into the tank?

[@davidbasey8201]

W

[@jkepps]

Absolutely loved this!!! Keep the rest of this series coming please!

[@todddenio3200]

The 351 C 4V heads were mindblowing in how much different they were from the 2V heads

[@LacquerSniffer]

If i remember right the ports were almost too large

[@DriveCarToBar]

@@LacquerSniffer Clevelands with 4V heads will drink disgusting amounts of fuel if you let them. Give them a single plane manifold, a big carb and as much air as you can get in, and you'll be rewarded. Just don't go too crazy with the jets. They are high RPM heads for sure. Good motors for nitrous.

[@1mikewalsh]

And the 2v heads are more than enough to feed a 351! Best to port for a serious street motor.

[@duelde-consulting6403]

351 C, was only produced with a 4v carb. 351/400 M usually came with a 2v carb. It's a common mistake people make, but a 351 modified 400 was not the same engine as a Cleveland. The modified block was cast from lighter material and had smaller oil channels, where as the Cleveland block was a more dense cast and had much larger oil channels. The 2v heads were produced specifically for the modified block, where as the 4v heads were produced specifically for the Cleveland block. I know that people don't want or like to hear it, but there were major structural differences between the 351/400 modified and the 351 Cleveland engines, despite a side by side comparison of appearing to be the same engine, they were not.

[@todddenio3200]

@@duelde-consulting6403 you sir are incorrect. The 351 C was made as both a 2V and a 4V. I highly recommend that you take the 5 minutes to look into it before trying to argue that point and look foolish. Yes the M series engines were only available in the 2V configuration but were based on the Cleveland and had a raised deck height and the bellhousing was changed from the small block bolt pattern to the 385 series big block bellhousing bolt pattern.

[@sparkythedetroitdoggo8281]

My first car at 16 was a 73 Gran Torino with the Windsor . Blew the motor 2 weeks later doing a burn out ! Second car was a 70 Torino with the Cleveland . Burned off so many tires ! Bullet proof !!

[@davidwilker4795]

Another way check the block for 351C vs. 351/400M is a raised little wall of cast iron near the distributor.

[@skooby_doobie_doonkann3334]

Had a 1979 Ford thunderbird heritage with a 351 Windsor. What a sweet piece of machinery

[@chuckcrooks2114]

My 53 F-100 loves it's 351 Cleveland!

[@432b86ed]

I'm just trying to help here when I point out the misuse of the contraction "it's". That is for an abbreviation of "it is" - and it won't get picked out by auto-spellcheckers. I'm glad someone pointed it out to me not long ago. Ymmv. Regards

[@garyhaber333]

I have fond memories when I was in HS back in 82. I bought a 302 from a junkyard for 200 bucks, tore it down, rebuilt it, put it in my my 79 mustang fox body that had a puny 4 cyl, and turned that car into a sleeper!! Smoked the tires everytime I took off.... It was sweet...

[@robertdavis6708]

I've been to hundreds of salvage yards in my life. Funny thing though. It's always raining !

[@ChickenC0re]

Always overcast every time I ever went to my local one.

[@1mikewalsh]

Or snowing....

[@paulbeldenbush]

Same for me at the metal scrap yard!

[@zachsmith6898]

Thank You for the 351 video

[@Reaper4367]

the old 5.8 is every where here. Was put into everything.

[@tristandavis3294]

Reaper4367 I’ve got a 1995 F-150 and it’s got a 5.8 in it

[@dapsapsrp]

That salvage yard was one of the neatest and most well organized I have seen. Very well laid out. If I owed a yard that's how I would do it. I have not been to one in probably over 30 years but some had indoor stacked and sorted inventories of drivetrain and major body parts whole others were just piles scattered on hillsides. Funny though, the sloppy one always had what I needed. Not sure how the yard boss knew where stuff was but he did.

[@GearheadRob319]

Absolutely enjoy the ford engine builds! Thank you so much!👍

[@j.m.74]

When I was in high school, my (then) best friend had a white '77 Thunderbird powered by a 351M engine. That was an awesomely fun car.

[@edt6044]

Any problems with the M ? I had one Windsor and Cleveland much better motors just my opinion

[@j.m.74]

@@edt6044 Can't really think of any problems other than the car being able to pass pretty much anything except a gas station. It was a thirsty beast, to be sure. Then again, it was about a quarter century ago, so my memory may be a bit fuzzy on the details.

[@leonnygren9394]

Growing up in my dads successful repair business I did learn there was no comparison between the Windsor and Cleveland engines...hands down the Cleveland was superb quality and the Windsor...well my dad made a lot of money installing valve quides and seats on those junk Windsor early engines. I fact I still have the complete valve guide and seat tool kit by Lisle 59000 ...brings tears to my eyes cause I can still see dad installing those " guides"...what history!

[@conanthedestroyer7123]

What a voice this mechanic has. Well done!

[@sajedabanu97]

Always love power nations video keep the good work

[@Dr._Love]

Man I loved watching this show with me Dad.

[@ventura1893]

Boss 289 had hemispherical heads (built to complete with Mopar) the cleavland had not been built/ the boss 302 adopted the canted valve heads/ cleavland used the boss Windsor style heads / not the other way around / the readily available cleavland heads were adapted to Windsor motors later on / edelbrock make boss heads and manifold kits today .

[@Fickoch]

Wow you guys are so professional very cool to watch, and I’ve always wanted to see this particular comparison in such a detailed manner. Good job on the voiceover man LOL… Seriously professional work on all counts! God bless you guys

[@bobmarker6812]

3:55 - That was a 73 Cougar, not a 71 LTD.

[@karlsmith2570]

bob marker yeah that sure was a Mercury Cougar, my eldest sister actually owned one of those cars

[@grumpyoldman-21]

explains why the block was a 72-74 cast date then

[@JustALad]

Glad somebody else caught that. I’ve got a 73 xr7 with that same motor, thought I was loosing my mind!

[@BogattheMoon]

guy used to work for Tennessee Wildside on PBS, so doubtful he knows much about cars or turning wrenches, I kinda cringed when I saw he was the host

[@matthewwilson5388]

@@karlsmith2570 I thought it was a montego like mercury's version of the torino

[@charleysgarage]

you guys are awesome, love this video just like I love a trip through the salvage yard. Keep up the great videos!

[@michaelvandyke6715]

Ran both engines... Cleveland in my "70" Mach I... The others were Windsor... They did good also.. The best Windsor was in my "75" Thunderbird..

[@malefrmbk]

Had a 76 mercury cougar with the Windsor engine ran strong and comfortable..liked the dash..

[@toddbob55]

I love Ford engines...makes me wanna build a Ford small block!!!

[@johnhutsenpillerjr1785]

GREAT VIDEO! Brings back good memories ! Thanks a million.

[@jeh4138]

Anyone else notice the "71 LTD Land Yacht" was actually a 74 Mercury Cougar?

[@Stucifer]

Right off. Wasn't going to comment. I don't think these are Ford guys. They said that was a running engine in Cougar. I wonder what the rest of the car looked like? I've driven one of those.. It is a boat, but it's a dreamy ride. I wouldn't mind owning one

[@chesterolszowka1557]

Another minor thing, the oil pump shaft does not drive the distributor, it's driven by the distributor. 9:52

[@jeh4138]

The knee bone's connected to the thigh bone . . .Got me wondering if the inventor of the camshaft was an eccentric genius, or am I just profiling ?

[@buzzwaldron6195]

Flat top pistons and 79cc 2 bbl. C chambers doesn't give " 10:1 "... more like 9:1...

[@sasz2107]

Yes. Why even call it the wrong car? Do they think no one's going to notice?

[@larryarcher4502]

My dad had A 351 Cleveland In a 69 Fairlane Station wagon Very snappy engine. Knock the timing chain out At 75000 miles ,He just loved that passing Gear😊 He didn't even Know what he had, Until an excited mechanic told him What it was . He Just knew he liked the response, When he went to pass People on our short stretches Of Straight road!!

[@CuriousFord]

I love days i the salvage yard. Its the mechanics sandbox.

[@johndomoe3735]

Jo

[@monicaturner5984]

It`s good and educational too, to see and compare both of these great V8`s from FORD. Thanks!

[@gnarlytothemax]

would love to see a finished dyno comparison Cleveland vs Windsor.

[@danielwilson6665]

The Cleveland /Windsor dyno comparisons are always interesting but without fail also brings out the armchair builders and magazine educated experts. I was a little surprised to see the Horsepower TV Chevy specialists doing something worthwhile with both flavors of 351 Fords. The Cleveland heads are receiving the correct modifications for a respectable performance build ! Rocker pedestals machined for screw-in studs and pushrod guide plates suggests that someone calling the shots actually has a higher level of skill than what’s usually required for the SBC double hump heads with the obligatory three quarter race cam Bowtie mentality 😉. It should be interesting. My money is on the canted valve Cleveland’s vastly superior flow velocity over the asthmatic Windsor’s shortness of breath 😄.

[@narmale]

the Cleveland was the race engine, but the ports were to big for street use, it also had issues with oiling which is why so many times it's the best thing to hybridize the two in the infamous Cleav-or. Drill the block into the heads for cooling and bolt the Cleveland heads to the Windsor block. the Cleveland IS the more powerful from the factory. It's also more problematic, but does have smaller mains, but poor oiling. a 454 Cleav-or with aftermarket CHI block is a freakin beast with Kaase heads.... your looking at 750+ hp all motor and just begging for juice.

[@danielwilson6665]

@ Steve Blakley...if cars are any indication, your dad sounds pretty cool. I owned a couple of Mach 1’s back in the day. In ‘71 I had a ‘69 428 Cobra Jet with Ram Air and C6 automatic. For sheer tire smoking torque, it was awesome and won it’s share of street racing against the best of the day. But in all honesty, the current day Mustang GT and especially the modern Shelbys could out perform it in all categories. After I managed to blow up the 428 CJ by pushing it beyond its limits, I got another’69 Mach but with a more reasonable 351W 4-V. It ran good for a stock small block and I drove it a couple of years until a old drunk woman ran a stop sign and caused its destruction. Now I have a 1970 Mach 1, 351 Cleveland and Shaker Ram Air. I’ve been pretty lucky with this one because I’ve owned it 35 years without something tragic happening. I like the Cleveland best because it responds so well to modifications that I’ve done to it. That’s probably why Clevelands dominated Pro Stock Drag Racing during the seventies and Windsor based engines couldn’t make enough power to be competitive in Pro Stock. The guys stuck with running Windsors are quick to say how Clevelands suck but the record books tell it like it is 😉. I appreciate your reply 👍.

[@danielwilson6665]

@ narmale...The stock Cleveland four barrel intake port size is 2.500” H. x 1.750” W. The intake valve is 2.19” in diameter. That’s pretty big even for a big block engine. But not necessarily too big for a 351 street engine with a few basic modifications to take full advantage of the massive power potential that the Ford Engineers specifically designed this head for. In ‘70 and’71 before the combustion chambers were enlarged to work with lower octane fuel, the 4-V heads had quench (smaller) chambers and actually performed pretty well, especially at 3000 rpm’s up to redline. Throttle response felt a little soft at lower engine speeds but came on strong as rpm’s went up. Turning the Cleveland into a street terror only took a few basic upgrades. Headers to replace the restrictive cast iron manifolds along with a low restriction exhaust system. A Holley carb and aluminum 4-V intake manifold were the basic bolt-on components that made a huge difference. Next came a hotter solid lifter cam and roller rocker arms to take full advantage of the intake and exhaust upgrades. To optimize all of the other upgrades, a lower rear end gear ratio of 4.11:1 or lower, depending on what worked best with the new camshaft was next. Four speed cars worked great with cam swaps. Automatics usually needed a higher stall speed torque converter to work with the more radical cam grinds available at the time. Around 1971 was the first time that I got to ride in a ‘70 Mach 1 with the basic modifications just mentioned. It was totally awesome and hard to believe that much power could come from a stock bottom end 351 with a few basic modifications. With a balanced short block and higher compression pistons, even more power can be made. When it comes to the Cleveland block and its stock oiling system, it works fine for mild street builds. But thanks to the internet and all of the online experts spreading bullshit about something they heard, the problem got blown way out of proportion. The bean counters at Ford decided they could save a little money on each block from the Cleveland foundry by machining only two oil galleys instead of the usual three. As a result, the stock oiling system feeds the cam and heads first before being routed down to the crank and main bearings where a good supply of oil is required for high rpm situations. The problem became obvious early on when drag racers in Pro Stock started taking advantage of the tremendous power potential of the 4-V heads and radical camshafts by twisting the engines to 10,000 rpm’s and higher. Needless to say the bearings fried quickly without a good oil supply. NASCAR builders were having the same problem. But the fix is simple and relatively cost effective. By installing screw in oil restrictors in the passages that feed oil to the upper engine along with enlarging the lifter bores to accept brass restrictor bushings, more oil becomes available at the mains and bottom end. Problem solved. I use restrictors on my Cleveland and wouldn’t build one without them. The new aluminum alloy Cleveland blocks that are in production now in the United States are designed with priority main bearing oiling so no modifications are required. With the weight savings of aluminum and a bore and stroke capacity nearing 500 cubic inches, Clevelands are going to rock harder than ever thought possible !

[@fordlivinglegendstorinos9960]

@Steve Blakley c6's trannys wont work on a 351 Cleveland stamped 2v/4v(small block bell pattern "FMX/C4 , 4 spd top loader or a T-5 with sbf bell), c6 will work on the 351 modified which is basically a de~stroked 400

[@Softail77us]

My neighbor was always touting how superior the Cleveland was compared to a Windsor. Thanks for the video!

[@imright9957]

My friend and I put A 351W and a Pinto. It was like greased lightning on the drag strip

[@donsmith4894]

don smith the cleveland is a smallblock, it's smaller than the 351 windsor deck height for windsor is 9.5" cleveland is 9.2" windsor is .300 thousandths taller! now thats a fact and for the cat in florida that says the boss 351 didn't have a steel or forged crank he's right and i can tell you why. it's because you don't need one. i raced limited late model @ speed world (orlando) and new symrna Fl. for three years and i won the championship all three years with a 030 over flat tops, stock rods and stock crank. I turned it 72 to 7500 rpms and never blew an engine did bend 2 pushrods one night in heat race, pulled them out put 2 back in and won the feature i hold the track record for my class, and now you can't run a cleveland anymore I had the only ford in the field and I know a little bit about fords I only won about 60/65 trophies. 69 fastback mustang and 72 torino and 88t-bird I even took it to georgia and run it on a dirt track actually clay. (Golden Isles Speedway) it's says it's the fastest half-mile in the southeast and finished 3rd on asphalt tires!

[@Bricklinsv1970]

Best Channel on KZbin!

[@evangelist6277]

Back in the day I would have loved a compression gun and engine mount thing, Having stripped and rebuilt engines I know the fun of it all, and there is nothing better then putting an engine together and having it start without too much tweaking.

[@alexcorona]

On the Cheap? I've never been to a cheap junkyard. They always want 80% of the price the part costs brand new.

[@robbiefrentz9427]

ACPHOTO That’s no lie . Damn crooks all they are

[@zmanphx]

Seriously?

[@picklerix6162]

Junkyards are almost as bad as pawnshops. I found a used portable torch in a local pawnshop and they were asking more than a new torch.

[@fabiancrossland7133]

Going to the wrong ones 😂

[@icsivan]

I live in southern Cali, and they’re all expensive. I grabbed a sway bar and they were trying to charge me for some busted ass Bushings and links. I said no, let me just take them off.

[@peteh5862]

In 1975 I ordered a new 1976 Ford F150 with a 351 Cleveland. It was a great engine.

[@blackericdenice]

14:12 400 Hp is not coming from raising the compression. If the engine make that much. It’s because of the cam.

[@falconater68]

Compression and cam work together....

[@Autojones]

Well yeah, not just the compression but it takes very little to get 400 HP out of a Cleveland. here is a video where a guy rebuilt his 351 C stock and they put it on the Dyno. with a stock distributor with points, cast iron intake and exhaust ... they just put a holly in place of the smog Autolite carb and it produced 352 HP and 391 TQ. with just a cam intake and headers it's amazing the power those thing can produce. I'll never understand why those engines didn't become super popular. oh ..here's the video .. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nZjEoH56o5x-eqs

[@DriveCarToBar]

@@Autojones The Cleveland was intended as a stopgap. Once Windsor caught back up, they didn't really need the 335s anymore. But, the 351M and 400M are essentially just tall deck Clevelands. You can find them in huge numbers of F-trucks throughout the 70s. Bumping the compression and a hotter cam really helps the Cleveland and its M cousins. 400hp is nothing. And Holley used to make adapters to put a Cleveland intake manifold on the taller deck M blocks. A single plane manifold, Holley 750, hotter cam and Cleveland pistons with rods bushed to fit the Cleveland pins, 450hp was easy peasy. Seriously good motors and they are everywhere.

[@blackericdenice]

@@Autojones Yes I like Nick. I hope he don't start saying stupid stuff like these guys to make money.

[@blackericdenice]

@@falconater68 Why do people raise the compression when they install hotter cam?

[@ditherdather]

I must be the only one impressed by how beautifully clean and neat that junk yard was. Most I've been to are like a jungle full of weeds and mud pits everywhere.

[@kevinmccune682]

Pride and love for what they do.

[@ditherdather]

@@kevinmccune682 Agreed

[@socalltd]

The Cleveland came out of a 73 cougar, not a 71 LTD. The compression ratio in a D2AE block was 8.5:1. not 7.9 as mentioned.

[@351cobra_jetmustang9]

Maybe someone used 2 head gaskets instead of one?

[@socalltd]

77-79 M blocks were at 7.9:1 with the cam really backed of and a standard 2.5:1 in the rear end.

[@localcrew]

socalltd I thought that sounded ridiculously low. Like VW Beetle low.

[@socalltd]

thats the dark days of automotive known as the 70's. .

[@lincolnmaniac]

that was a 74 cougar.

[@blackfender100]

We built a 302 in the late 70's I'm really turning back the clock here but my buddy put 351 C heads on a 302 .I remember the bolt pattern being the same but the holes for the bolts in the heads were diff. sizes. My buddies dad got it running after we did all the bull work.It screamed on a 66 mustang.

[@creativetradesman6833]

No disrespect meant, but growing up watching this show I always wondered if Joe actually knew what he was talking about or not.

[@danthedingo]

I’d lean toward yes

[@jarredsmith8091]

I agree with you

[@chromolitho]

I was thinking the same thing except this is the first time I've seen this show. He does seem to try to look convincing. Which is why the question gets raised I guess.

[@numlockkilla]

He has lost more knowledge than you and I have learned. Cocaine will do that to you.

[@jarredsmith8091]

@@numlockkilla doubtful Joe doesn't know much lol

[@johnkropp3793]

Holy crap, that was a clean notch back fox body mustang!!!

[@fawnlliebowitz1772]

Fox body isn't a "real" Mustang IMO, then again I'm old and still own a like new 69.

[@2000cobraguy]

351C-4V engines had a valve clearance notch on top of the bore.

[@aaronlempka2198]

Also 4 bolt mains and if l remember right they also had better crank and rods.

[@2000cobraguy]

@@aaronlempka2198 4 bolt mains yes

[@danielwilson6665]

The only regular production line Clevelands that came with four bolt main bearing caps on all five main bearing positions were the ‘71 Boss 351 and its lower compression follow up, the ‘72 351 Cleveland “HO” meaning High Output. Both engines featured solid lifter camshafts and an aluminum 4-V intake manifold. The ‘73 and ‘74 Clevelands with 4-V induction were named Cobra Jets and almost always came with 4-bolt mains. The exceptions would be when the assembly plant production line ran out of 4-bolt blocks they used standard 2-bolt blocks instead. Sometimes 4-bolt blocks have been found in factory produced station wagons and regular sedans that were available with two barrel Cleveland engines. When in doubt the only way to know for sure is to pull the oil pan and check because there’s nothing in the block casting numbers or production date codes to indicate if it has 2 or 4 bolt main bearing caps. All 351 Cleveland production engines including the Boss used the same rods and cast nodular iron cranks. For durability verification, Ford used the Brinell testing method on nodular iron cranks to verify the level of surface hardness. Cranks with the highest level of hardness were used in the Boss 351 engines. There were a very limited number of steel cranks made for early testing in factory experimental engines but the chances of finding one now are slim to none.

[@RedactedFreePress]

I've seen both the Cleveland and the Windsor sit out for 30 years and still start. those Engines were built to last.

[@clint4004]

I'm in awe...😃 I'd really like to see someone take a 351M and go from mild to wild..

[@goober3463]

I think there was a build using stock parts from several on a modified with some changing of water ports that made killer hp.it was in a hot rod magazine fron the early 90s.

[@clint4004]

@@goober3463 I'd like to see it in this format where they do some low buck mods, say to a 351M Dyno it. Then pull it down put the 400 crank in it and flat tops aluminum heads ECT and make power...

[@JB-tb2qp]

I’ve got a mild build on my 351m. 750 4bbl, .519 lift hydraulic cam, decked and ported heads, dual valve springs, ported edelbrock 400 performer intake. Nothing crazy but enough

[@clint4004]

@@JB-tb2qp on the stock pistons ? Everyone tells me the compression is to low but many motors are 8:1 stock...

[@JB-tb2qp]

Clinton N yes, and yeah the compression is pretty low, I haven’t gotten the motor in my truck yet so I don’t know how she’ll do but I’m gonna see

[@workingshlub8861]

years ago the junkyard in my area use to have $100 saturdays where it would all go to charity......anything you could pull and walk out of there under your own power in one trip ...engines in wheelbarrows ..guys dragging out hoods and doors on plywood sleds you name it ...fun to watch..

[@shooter-vx7xy]

Is it just me or did he snap a bolt off in the block of the Windsor removing the timing cover at 9:47?

[@MrTheHillfolk]

Looked like it to me also.

[@brunotulliani]

Can not wait to visit scrap yards in the USA. So cool!

[@mohamedmohamed-fx8dg]

ilove these rebuild video's

[@ComputerLearning0]

Beautiful work.

[@413x398]

Oil pan put on Cleve shows Fox chassis as target.

[@kws1957]

Beautiful film, thank you !

[@TyyeahBStoo]

351 Cleveland damn good motor👍

[@dntlss]

Man killer video,Ive always only messed with Windsors but always wanted to know the difference between the Windsor and Cleveland,killer place too where you found the engines,i love diversity,businesses that dont diversify usually die, they have all kinds of things going on there and some rare cars, awesome. We have a couple of pull a parts in my hometown and i love going there,you can save some incredible amounts of money by pulling the stuff yourself,my buddy was with me and we found this Mustang (87 to 93) that came with a sunroof, somewhat of a rare option for those cars,he pulled it and the guy charged him 20 bucks for it,he sold it in market place for 200 and the guy that bought it said he would have paid 300 for it gladly,it was mint too, you got lucky finding that Cleveland,good day for everyone, Great tip on the cardboard, gonna have to remember that! Couldn't believe how clean that Cleveland was when you took that intake off, man whoever owned that engine changed the oil regularly, i took a 351 apart once and that whole valley was completely full to the top with sludge and carbon and it had a spun bearing on the crank,probably a fleet car that never saw service,lol

[@EvilSSP]

It's a shame the Boss 351 doesn't get more recognition. It could have been a sick engine with better factory tuning.

[@ColinsMarine]

1966 2 door New Yorker was probably a Newport. I had a 1965 with a 413, great old boat!

[@buckykattguitar]

I'm doing a 351c 4v motor for my 64 Mercury Comet Cyclone.

[@351cobra_jetmustang9]

Sounds like someone is going to be doing some shock tower clearancing

[@noway6852]

Get it on!

[@mlp-hot-rod5824]

Always wanted to see this comparison done between them. This will be interesting.

[@kenchorney2724]

Another "recycler" that intentionally damages usable parts when "draining all fluids".

[@kenchorney2724]

@@bigboreracing356 So the 5 seconds per vehicle that this destructive approach saves is worth scrapping every oil and trans pan out there?

[@noway6852]

@@bigboreracing356 right lol throw a grenade in the project and check it out tomorrow! 😂

@@bigboreracing356 .... yap yap yap... you'd think someof these turds^^^^ have a brain...

[@brentboswell1294]

If they didn't do it, the EPA would shut them down...some EPA superfund sites were junkyards!

[@liebherr11602]

@@bigboreracing356 a few plug welds. The gas tanks the same after filled with water. Plastic tanks can be patched with a piece of red hot sheet metal and a cup of water.

[@BigEightiesNewWave]

A guy up the street in 1970 had a Mustang Boss 429/4-speed ! Ran 12.2s stock and had a factory Holley 735 CFM.

[@billyjack8119]

Clevelands seemed like they ran better with the 2 barrel heads on the street. No velocity in the 4 barrel heads until you get past 5 grand.

[@prushimush]

Windsor heads suck. Even the best DO0E castings from 69-70 aren't great. Windsors really need aftermarket heads to make good power, but once you get some on it, it's a great engine.

[@dj4monie]

Yes and No. It's been solved in the aftermarket. No need to use 2V heads which even ported don't match a good set of Edelbrock heads. Best Cleveland heads for the street are CHI out of Aussieland.

[@billyjack8119]

@@dj4monie i had a 351 Windsor with ported 69 heads in a 79 notch back mustang. I had lunati cams take a chevy grind and put it on a 351 firing order cam for me. They said it wouldn't work. I ran low 12s high 11s with not much compression 87 octane and a tight converter at 117mph. Flat tappet hydraulic. A friend of mine had a built Cleveland with high compression 4v heads big cam running 13s. The closest street car at the time was a big block chevelle. I played around with an rpm air gap and victor intake but the car ran the same. 28 inch tire 4.10 gear

[@noway6852]

Stock 2 valve is poop

[@noway6852]

@@billyjack8119 all i hear in my head is a drag car going "Blub blub blub blub blub blub,"

[@T0tenkampf]

Great Video! I would note that the 351C "M" code blocks could also be 4 bolt mains and that there are reports of some "Q" code blocks being only 2 bolt. I have owned or still own a 67 Ranchero, 72 Ranchero, 72 Gran Torino Sport, and a 73 Ranchero GT Q Code all with the 351C...its a great engine.

[@GWAR1982]

As Chevy packs up and abandoned the us Ford is going to prevail. That’s why these guys aren’t building another abc!

[@FIREPHILSPENCER]

Walter Tomaszkiewicz No they'll be back to building the engine of choice SBC in no time, they did this for the few people who still use Ford engines.

[@Billybobaggins9]

Frig off randy

[@user-mt4zr5kp7h]

Had a 400m (Cleveland motor at heart) and everyone used to tell me, oh, you'll never get a hundred thousand miles out of it. Everyone around me seems to think those Motors were garbage. Well, I don't mind and that thing had tons of power, and just gobs of bottom end torque! I added a high volume oil pump, performer intake, cam and lifters, and an Edelbrock 600 four-barrel, ported and polished the heads, and that was about it. Still had the factory deep dish pistons in it, but because I ran out of money and had to be able to drive, I threw it in with what I had. I tell you, I couldn't keep tires on my vehicle after that! Very underrated engine. And parts availability, I found to be similar to a small block Chev! Love them old Cleveland engines!

[@CChan11]

9:43 Jesus Christ, didn't your dad ever teach you not to pry on sealing surfaces? How the hell did you make it on this show?

[@owentimo]

You're not going to hurt it, its cast iron, chill out.

[@jimtekkit]

​@@owentimo Ah yes, cast iron, highly valued for its immunity to damage.

[@Milkmans_Son]

@@jimtekkit I thought it was highly valued for it's repairability.

[@disfunctionalmorons1324]

Did you notice they snapped the water pump bolt off

[@CChan11]

@@owentimo Cast iron is soft and EXTREMELY brittle.

[@AB-ou8ve]

These vids are addictive.

[@indyrock8148]

This looked promising but in the second part they build the Cleveland stock and stroke the Windsor to 408" and make into a clevor. Not much of a comparison.

[@MrJak427]

Indy Rock also use the same cam for 2v and 4v heads 🙄 And those beehive springs aren’t going to cut the mustard with those big Cleveland valves

[@owentimo]

WHAT? seriously? Thats stupid.

[@TheCOWBOYRANCHER]

Love the 351/400 Cleveland on my fathers 78 f150 custom. Going strong at 385k miles after a mild rebuild.

[@brianbabb6666]

That was a 351 m modified 400 not the same as Cleveland.

[@brandonrobertson6327]

​@@brianbabb6666Hate to break it to you, Ford classified the 351C, 351M, and the 400M as the 335 Series of engines. The C difference from the M & 400 by 1.1 inches. The C is a small block pattern and the M & 400 are the 429/460 pattern. But all three are the 335 Series engine. There are differences, but the basic design are virtually identical. The 351M/400 are just scaled up version of the 351C. If you could stroke 351C over 400 cu in, the 351M/400 block, crank, and rods would be what you need. The 351C can only be reliably stroke to about 377 cu in (some have got 393 cu in with high side loading on the cylinder walls).

[@brianbabb6666]

@@brandonrobertson6327 why go through all that to say not the same?

[@brandonrobertson6327]

@@brianbabb6666 To give context. Ford claimed all three are of the same engine family because of the design. You are making a claim that they are not due to certain parts not interchanging. Yet some parts do. Ford was attempting to phase out the FE line of engines and possibly the 385 Series 429/460 line up to make a single line to do all. Due to the emissions war on American auto manufacturers, this is why the 351C was done away with because of the 351W and kept the 351M/400 was marketed for a middle ground between the Windsor and 385 Series. You can have the same engine design, yet scale up or down. Ever heard of the 5.9L and 8.3L Cummins? Virtually the same design, yet only about 50% interchange due to scaling up the 5.9L. You can still claim it is not a so call "Cleveland", but that is the name of the foundry plant where the molds was for the blocks and heads. The design is the same with a scaled up version. As a side note, the 302 and 351W are the same family class also, but as in the Cleveland/335 family, the deck is about 1 inch higher just as the 351M/400 to the 351C. Yet everyone will say the 302 and 351W are the same engine family.

[@brianbabb6666]

@@brandonrobertson6327 you sure are long winded but it still doesn't make the 351M /400 and 351C the same?

[@red1inerr113]

3:36 I wouldn't be going under there if old wheels are all thats holding it up

[@localcrew]

Red1ineRR The camera view made it look sketchy but those rims are actually welded firmly together if they’re anything like my local pull a part place.

[@Ulfstigandr]

Exactly. Every pick n pull ive been too used welded up rims for jack stands.

[@amethyst3762]

I enjoy watching this.

[@4thGloryMonday]

what if i needed a oil pan for my mustang, cant get one there they drilled a hole in it

[@tonyjones6689]

thread it and have two drain plugs lol

[@1stockcam]

Not worth your time. Rock auto sells them for like $50 brand new.

[@cvcoco]

Good video and explanation of the differences!

[@bige9830]

I'm sorry. I thought Ford's didn't have big blocks and small blocks. Just engine families.

[@alexcorona]

You were wrong, they even have small block and big block for their 6 cylinders….

[@alexcorona]

If you go to ford racing’s own website they have a section labeled “big block” and have 429/460 items. That’s Ford calling them big blocks themselves….

[@geauxtigers2911]

I took a 351w and stroked it to a 408, flat top pistons, cam and heads, makes great power

[@flamin5.833]

Do you remember any numbers? I've got a cleveland that i want to stroke to a 408 but i wanna make sure itll make the power that im looking for

[@geauxtigers2911]

@@flamin5.833 Dyno at 495 hp 515 ft lbs of torque

[@geauxtigers2911]

@@flamin5.833 learn from my experience tho, my motor is pushing 230 lbs of compression per cylinder, spend the extra money for steel head gaskets lol, I blew both head gaskets on my first start up because I was in a hurry to get it done and used auto zone gaskets

[@geauxtigers2911]

@@flamin5.833 I might can get you part numbers of all the stuff I put in it including the heads and intake if I can find my paper work

[@flamin5.833]

@@geauxtigers2911 sweet if you could that would be awesome

[@alexcorona]

A Cleveland is basically a small block with Big Block heads.

[@danielwilson6665]

@ ACPHOTO....No doubt the huge port and valve sizes on the 351C, 4-V heads are big enough to support the extra displacement of most any big block engine and make some impressive power numbers as well. But as you probably know, Cleveland heads won’t actually bolt on to any of the Ford big blocks. However, most people don’t know that Cleveland heads are a direct bolt-on for any 260, 289, 302 and 351 Windsor small block engine. The bolt patterns and bore spacing are the same

[@danielwilson6665]

A minor modification has to be done for proper coolant flow when using Cleveland heads on a Windsor block and there are only a few intake manifolds currently made for the Clevor combination because of the 0.300” taller deck height of the Windsor block but there are spacers available to adapt more intake manifolds to the Clevor engine. Companies like Edelbrock and Trick Flow Specialties make aluminum Cleveland head and intake manifold packages specifically for the taller deck Windsor blocks. It all raises a pretty good question....Why would people choose to trash their Windsor in-line valve heads to replace them with a pair of the aftermarket aluminum Cleveland heads currently available from at least 6 different manufacturers in the U.S. and Australia or even the factory cast iron canted valve 4-V heads that some people say are pretty good boat anchors ??? The answer is obvious but I would rather not go there because the topic causes reasonable minds to go totally ignorant and creates a massive traffic jam on the information superhighway 😉.

[@alexcorona]

@@danielwilson6665 yup! Ford even did it themselves on the Boss 302 mustang 😊 I wish they made a Cleveland head for the ford 240/300. I know racers have made DIY versions, but it would have been rad to have a factory one.

[@danielwilson6665]

@@alexcorona That’s for sure my friend. The big Ford straight six is impressive enough but the addition of one of the extensively chopped and rewelded Cleveland canted valve angle heads is the ultimate naturally aspirated modification possible. It has been proven many times over. The fairly big Flow volume requirements can use the Cleveland deep breathers with huge results. Keep on thinking positive. Ya never know when one of these heads magically drops from the sky and lands squarely on your six 👍🏁

[@philirwinskifortyfive1798]

The 351C had two different heads. 2v were two barrell carbs and 2.04 intakes valves. The 4v heads on four barrells were 2.19 intakes! I spent my high school years with a Torino 351C two barrel searching junk yards for four barrel heads.