Practical Tips For Overcoming Trauma & The Power Of Resilience | George Bonanno

[@doctor.duckworth]

As a trauma and PTSD researcher in cognitive neuroscience, this has been one of the most important and nuanced discussions on trauma I’ve seen among the pop culture discourse on trauma. It’s so important to distinguish between discomfort, and trauma, and PTSD (which all have different neurophysiological mechanisms & psychological manifestations). I would love to see an interview with Bessel Van der Kolk and also Gabor Mate about their theories on trauma vs what the evidence says. I also think it’s so important that the general public understand the difference between theory, hypothesis, and evidence based practice. The line of these are frequently blurred in the trauma space.

[@juliakeithweis]

Yes gabe mate and Bessel !

[@jordanhanson316]

100%, as someone who probably hasn’t seeked enough help with trauma, I’d like to know the lines in the sand, the clear as day symptoms that hey, I should probably go talk to someone. I know that’s not easy though.

[@raquelfantoni2812]

@@jordanhanson316I think a good rule of thumb is, if it, or the coping methods you use for it, negatively impacts your ability to live you day-to-day life, professional help should be sought.

[@jordanhanson316]

@@raquelfantoni2812 Thank you.. there's been times.

[@pdub707]

I wish Dr. Mike would consider the side of mental health in which it impacts the body and how mental health issues can essentially hijack your response to triggers. It happens so quickly that there is little to no involvement of consciously directed thought patterns. Talk around mental health is often very one-sided: change thought patterns (re-framing, redirecting, distracting, etc). The underlying message is that it is your fault for ruminating. So many people (not you, Dr. Duckworth) hear psychological and get this weird idea that it isn't a physical process, that it's all in their head as if the brain has this separate non-corporeal function of 'mental health'. And, that we have full control and can determine all that it does and it's our failure for not man-handling it into compliance and wellness. I think we need a different term than 'mental health'. It has transformed into this non-physical condition in which people are not trying hard enough into 'thinking' it better. And no, pills are not a fix all. The success rate of anti-depressants and anti-anxieties are abysmal, in my opinion.

[@eloisepharmacist]

My interpretation of the "body keeps the score" is in regards babies and children who experience abuse and trauma before they are forming cognitive memories they will remember into adulthood. They experience all the cortisol and body stress and learn to adapt to stay safe etc. They get to being older and can't remember, but then end up with hypervigilence, attachment disorde, anxiety etc.

[@KlaskeyProductions]

Yes, but if you remember the hysterectomy story, things happen to adults that can derail an otherwise healthy person’s visceral sense of safety too.

[@fff5572]

This was exactly my experience. I had signs and symptoms of childhood abuse all my life but because I didn't remember the event I never made the connection. The birth of my daughter triggered a lot of 'physical' memory. The feeling of it rather than the image. I still struggle to call myself a victim because I can't say for sure what even happened. I learned it's actually pretty common to lock away early childhood memories and for them to be triggered during major life events like having a child

[@PaulaRoederer]

Rape is extremely common, but that doesn't make it any less traumatic.

[@Evyyylovescupcakes]

I learned about traumatic amnesia as a result!

[@lucycarola]

I had this conversation w my kids just yesterday. How my siblings and I grew up in super abusive, dangerous and volatile environments and thus grew up around trauma, yet, learned resilience and learned on how to deal (lots of therapy). While today’s kids, self describe ‘traumas’ that should not be described as such. Not trying to minimize anyone’s traumas. But, it is concerning to see children not being able to handle any sort of stress at all. Our children will be much sicker than all of us in the future if they don’t learn these coping mechanisms.

[@Ntjidzi-Saviour]

I love when he answers Dr. Mike's questions with "I don't know" or when he states he's not familiar with a certain topic.

[@narratornate8841]

Or he spends multiple minutes dismissing something before saying he's not knowledgeable

[@genevievec.8002]

I feel like this is intended as a negative, but I'd prefer he say he doesn't know than pretend he does. He's not currently practicing, and it's not like mental health is the most concrete and perfected field of medicine. If he did have all the answers on these topics, with confidence, I'd immediately become suspicious of everything else he said, personally.

[@Kaye09MNchick]

@@genevievec.8002 I’m a licensed Social Worker and I agree that it’s okay to say we don’t know. However, I see him saying it for things that ARE explainable and HAVE been researched. Things he should know about if he was still actively seeing clients (and possibly learning more current research). It is VERY different to review theory than it is to actually work with clients. Plus, the research on trauma, while there needs to be more, is also vast. The Body Keeps the Score was one of the first larger research studies that studied the effects of trauma on the body and, how people can be affected long-term with health effects. There are other studies as well (and theories) that also back this up. The ACEs study is one that was one of the largest studies based on trauma effecting health that is out there. The ACEs study was also mentioned in The Body Keeps the Score and, it was done in the 90’s on mostly white, upper-wealth people who were privileged. And, the results showed that the higher the ACEs score is directly linked with less quality health and, more issues that cannot be explained anatomically. This is why I don’t think he should be saying “I don’t know” because he should know. So, the fact that he doesn’t, to me, disqualifies him from talking/teaching people about trauma. If he kept learning and kept up with the research, I would give him more credit for saying I don’t know.

[@chrispitio7177]

I find that it's a mark of an honest scientist to say when you don't know

[@georockstar09]

@@genevievec.8002 The thing that bugs me, though, is that he writes a book called "the end of trauma" that contradicts or diminishes "the body keeps the score", and then goes on to answer "I don't know" with regards to a lot of trauma questions that Dr Mike does know, and Dr Mike isn't even a psychologist but just knows basics in order to help his patients.

[@lilymoy2265]

First off, huge props to Dr. Mike for maintaining civil discourse and being able to respectfully challenge conflicting ideas. This was a provocative discussion and I really enjoyed hearing all the differing perspectives. I think the idea was there, but the words "personal responsibility" confused the point. One cannot necessarily "choose" to be better or feel a certain way, but overdiagnosing trauma and mental illness in general can potentially induce feelings of loss of control or personal autonomy. I like the obesity example Dr. Mike used; it is a true struggle, and what led you to become obese may be factors not entirely in your control, but it's important to maintain and foster a sense of autonomy--that your body is yours, and you can eventually rise past what is ailing you, perhaps with outside help. I think what he is trying to warn against here is a feeling that we are broken--that our thoughts and behaviours are irreparable, and that our negative experiences are something that we cannot escape or move beyond. Overdiagnosing trauma and creating a hypersensitivity around all negative experiences can potentially lead to feeling overwhelmed by such experiences, feeling permanently damaged by them rather than being able to grow from them. I have struggled with my own actual trauma, and am slowly learning to detach myself from it as an 'identity'. I don't deny what happened to me, but it does not define me, and I do not want it to control how I live and feel. On the other hand, I have also struggled with events that deeply affected me and left me with lingering thoughts and feelings, but labelling them as "traumatic" would be inappropriate. In the past, in my experience, overthinking and dwelling on such experiences has magnified feelings of stress and anxiety I've had regarding the events, when acknowledging them as normal life stressors often puts me more at ease in dealing with them. All that being said, some events go above and beyond being able to be called "normal life stressors", and his definition of what qualifies as a PTE is very nebulous. Recognizing that something had a lasting, negative effect on you is often the first step to learning to grow from it. We should not label everything negatively impactful as "traumatic", but we must also recognize that acknowledging trauma is an important first step before any growth can happen.

[@Jooshyb]

Thank you for your insight. Improving my mental health by bootstrapping can feel like trying to go to sleep by repeating "Go to sleep" over and over again. I've always viewed the personal responsibility thing as a two sided coin. One side is the side trying to go to sleep by yelling at your self, the other side involves preparing a good environment for you to succeed without forcing it. I think it's important to distinguish the two.

[@christopherbedford9897]

Yeah you can't read too much into terminology. Some professions / sectors / communities have adopted certain words to mean something specific which may be a very narrow subset of what the words mean to other people in a natural language, or even mean something quite different altogether, and mental health is very much one of those communities. Short version: you have a strong point, but don't overthink it.

[@imcarakins]

Dang bro, props to you! You wrote a whole essay!😅

[@sebastianstrom-helbekkmo7648]

This! I think he could have swapped "personal responsibility" with "autonomy" and the point would have come across better.

[@SarahDangerous]

Really great explanation! Totally agree, like everything in life there should be nuance!

[@kitnfall]

Thank you Dr. Mike for this calm, informative, and respectful conversation. Professor Bonanno brought lots of valid points that challenged some of my beliefs, and at the same time I don't agree with some of his opinions, which is very natural. Instead of a polarizing debate focusing on who's right and wrong, this was a interview focusing on sharing knowledge for the better good. Excited for more interviews.

[@APink176]

💯

[@elizabethheyenga9277]

Nobody should agree 100% because nobody knows 100%. We know what we know now but not in the future

[@Rechtauch]

My grandma had her father killed when she was 9 during the Spanish Civil War. She never got profesionnal support, of course, but she went on to live a normal life, with the occasional telling the story to the grandkids. She is turning 100 this year and her brain is not what it used to be: she spends her days crying for the father who was killed 90+ years ago and imagining his sons have been arrested. My grandpa (from the other side) spent three years in prison at 20, with 2 death sentences hanging on his head, suffering forced labour and not knowing if/when he would be killed. He was eventually freed and went on to live a full live: he died at 83 and the only thing he would talk about during his last days was prison. I have the feeling trauma does catch up 😞

[@no-ah3185]

I’m so sorry that your Grandma is reliving such painful parts of her life.

[@tybg111]

Much love to your family

[@tarajones7981]

This is so hard to read about.... I feel for your family and am glad that they were resilient enough to live normal lives at least until the last years. I am also very sorry that she is reliving that trauma now!

[@damnmamaa]

This sounds very familiar. My grandmother spent a year in a concentration camp during WW2, and suffered night terrors for some years afterwards. They eventually subsided and she went on to live a normal life, but in her last years (in her 90s) she developed dementia, which brought with it the return of night terrors. She also couldn't watch television any more as she was unable to distinguish television from reality and any scenes of war terrified her.

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

I think it is not about trauma. They would have talked about those same years whether they experienced “traumatic events” or not. I am sorry they went through that and relive those events in their last moments though

[@moodywrites]

I honestly think that pinning all of someone getting better on their personal responsibility is not acknowledging that humans are impacted by their environment. Effort alone cannot overcome everything. Someone can be actively taking responsibility and still struggling. Poverty is a huge example of that.

[@amazinggrapes3045]

Yeah it really doesn't matter whether you have the "coping skills" or whatever. If you don't have access to relationships with others that are healthy, feel safe and are characterized by mutual understanding and mutual respect, nothing is going to replace that. And those relationships are the difference between being traumatized for life and getting better.

[@juliaorpheus]

exactly! @@amazinggrapes3045

[@TrinityTheOnly]

Thank you for saying that. I 100% agree!

[@ottercai]

It feels like a very privileged perspective. Everyone is in a balance as to the amount of nature versus nurture that impacts their psychology and overall wellbeing.

[@andianderson3017]

Personal responsibility doesn’t mean an unrealistic expectation that people can superhumanly fix everything. It means the only person who has a chance is them, and that they can improve slowly over time. Between giving people enough hope that they improve, though not completely, and telling them that they are slaves to their problems and ensuring that they never get better at all-personal responsibility is better. It’s about outcomes. Believing it would be better to not give people responsibility for their own issues is deciding that feeling less bad is more important than experiencing less bad. Social improvement and social justice is still very valuable, but we don’t need to treat these things as mutually exclusive. Give people responsibility for themselves AND work to improve their context so that their efforts are more productive. I like the phrase “it’s not your fault but it is your responsibility.”

[@TheFluttershy97]

Hi CASA Volunteer here. I work with kids in the foster care system. The characterization of trauma informed care rings false. There is a strong focus on resilience and creating space for kids to talk about their experiences. Giving the kids agency is hugely important.

[@maryjack08]

I've worked in after school care, where it's not uncommon for traumatised kids to attend. I agree with you 100%. Everything we're being taught in modern, trauma informed practice is about capacity building, and strengths based support.

[@AnaArantes]

Yes! Thank you. I work with neurodivergent populations and trauma-informed care guidelines are not what he described at all! And we have good and strong evidence from both clinical and social validity measures that trauma-informed care strategies significantly improve treatment results.

[@sherryleeis]

Good to hear- my research on trauma informed care was geared towards learning what works and it all came up as the need for more authentic human interaction that comes from the need for a de-institutionializing of spaces where people dealing with trauma are served. Not to attempt to anticipate individual responses, but solely to foster real human interaction as opposed to the factory model we see too often in human services-- to incorporate opportunities for connection, to demonstrate goodwill, reduce bureaucracy, especially in populations struggling with language barriers or unfamiliarity with the system... These kinds of things take into account that trauma can be adding another layer of challenge but also sets the stage for a general environment of safety and an orientation toward engagement without pressuring people who aren't ready. Also asking more questions as opposed to prescribing Just some examples of trauma informed approaches that have nothing to do with 'getting into the heads' of people. All those engaging in these environments, including staff, benefit, regardless of whether active trauma responses are at hand. Our institutions can help foster healing and encourage growth if trauma awareness is incorporated into best practices

[@hopesloan5932]

Yes I was hoping someone else would say this because that wasn’t an accurate understanding of trauma informed care!

[@millirabbit4331]

I think it depends where you go. Trauma-informed care can be helpful when done the way it was done in research. I have worked places where trauma informed care just meant believing that everyone that comes in the door is traumatized somehow and to treat everything we do as traumatizing. This was good for specific things like restraints and seclusions but also useless generally as it was too vague and not specific enough to be actionable.

[@jsink964]

I really appreciate how informed this professor is regarding resilience and epidemiological research. These points (which are well documented among the scientific literature) are often overlooked by society and even the clinical world. However, as a clinician and budding trauma-researcher, I have to point out that many of these adjacent points about repression, trauma-informed care, and the subjective experience of trauma are ill-informed, fringe, or plainly wrong. Simultaneously, these are also the points where he does not interact with the scientific literature.

[@Jooshyb]

Well put. Thank you for your insight

[@DembaraLemoon]

Can you give some more specific examples of how he is wrong about these things and the literature? As a layperson in this regard it definitely felt like he was talking from a lot less expertise on those points, but I cannot say I know much about them to judge his statements.

[@jsink964]

@@DembaraLemoon yes I can do my best! On the subject of repressed memories, Dr. Bonanno seems to be suggesting that developing a repressed traumatic memory is not only uncommon, but nearly impossible. It gets a little bit slippery with the verbiage here, because technically “repression” is a dated Freudian concept that has not survived the test of modern science. *However* I think from the context that the professor and Dr. Mike are actually talking about traumatic amnesia. This is a really well grounded symptom of PTSD, even making it into the DSM: (paraphrasing) “inability to remember aspects of the traumatic event.” Although it’s a bit dated (2011) James Chu’s “Rebuilding Shattered Lives” has an excellent chapter on this concept titled “the memory wars.” If Dr. Bonanno was just saying that traumatic amnesia is uncommon enough in the general population that no one should assume they’ve been traumatized and “repressed” the event, that is a fine statement (Chu even agrees). But he seems to go further and suggest that traumatic amnesia is impossible-this latter statement is ludicrous. Shifting to a second topic, Dr. Bonanno seems uncomfortable with trauma being a “subjective experience” and wants people to rely on an internal locus of control rather than labeling an experience as traumatic. I understand this, in research we often struggle to operationalize concepts in an objective manner. The hard truth of the matter is that all stressors are extremely subjective. A really good example of this is Nisbett and Cohen, who (in one of the coolest and most famous psychological experiments) showed how blood levels of stress hormones differed based on the cultural ancestry of the participant when subjected to the same stressor. This is a subjective cultural experience impacting the internal response of the body-and the variable was completely outside the individual’s control (we can’t change our cultural heritage)! I know Dr. Bonanno caveats with a point about religion at times providing an external locus of control and relieving stress, but frankly he acts like this is cutting edge information when it is really something we’ve known about for a long time. Ken Pargament has been doing research on this topic since the 90s. Finally, I’m really unsatisfied by how this professor describes “trauma-informed care” (TIC) as something that allows the client to avoid speaking about a sensitive trauma. I don’t have any studies here, but i can tell you in my clinical experience i have never heard anyone use the term in this way. It usually refers to any counseling theory that is (self explanatory) informed by evidence based trauma research. TIC usually means granting psycheducation to the client about the impact of trauma and their options for treatment before allowing them to make their own decision. If a client elected to avoid talking about their trauma (as often happens, since avoidance is actually a symptom of PTSD) TIC might even involve telling the client that discussing their experiences more openly might reduce their symptoms-as is the case in exposure therapy. This is the *exact opposite* of what Dr. Bonanno is saying. I would hate for a client to watch this video, and then be suspicious of trauma informed care.

[@singerstorm29]

@@jsink964 thank you very much for this. You put into words what was frustrating me while watching this video as someone in treatment for cptsd who deals with regular dissociation and had experienced traumatic amnesia 🙏🏻

[@narratornate8841]

He also isn't well informed on modern presentations and effects of trauma, having not interacted with patients in over a decade

[@RatchelRach]

One of the big problems with everything being called trauma these days is that it can make actual trauma survivors question themselves. Like "oh I'm probably just over exaggerating, this isn't actually trauma" or "this trauma isn't as bad as I think it is". I speak from experience

[@Tesis]

That’s the problem of labels. Because I thought long-term negative effects can only be called trauma and trauma was only something like physical violence, experience in war, sexual abuse, etc. and as a result I thought I should be fine. Then I realized after I went to therapy due to inability to control my mood and dissociating so hard at times I would lose sense of time and forget chunks of a day - yes some events that are emotionally painful and stressful and scary and repeated, especially when experienced when I was growing up, screwed me and I wasn’t functioning at my best my whole life. I had to go through another major scary event for myself for my nervous and psychological systems just breaking down instead of “getting a grip” (the way I was functioning before). Then I went to - surprise - trauma therapist. It was a discovery for me. Basically labels really can screw us up.

[@nothingtoit142]

It can also downplay it when you try to talk about it or mention it. The idea that everyone has it, but not everyone is having a hard time, so you shouldn't. And unhelpful advice: get over it, just relax, etc. Not everything that's difficult is a trauma, and other people may not have been traumatized if they had experienced someone else's traumatic event.

[@zarathe1st]

Yes, I agree.

[@allexmussen9107]

Same. This also with my ocd and current language really downplaying intrusive thoughts. As people water down terms and phrases of serious things and it's an everyones "quirky" thing it pushes the people experiencing those things to the side. Cant explain my ptsd to family bc "everyone has a little ptsd from school" or explaining that I'm having trouble with intrusive thoughts bc "oh everyone gets those sometimes. Dont worry we won't judge you if you cut your hair" etc etc Sometimes it even makes it hard to explain to my psychologist because they think I'm talking about the watered down version and not the actual serious meaning of the words and terms of phrases

[@pdub707]

@@allexmussen9107 If they want to minimize, they will. Before all these terms were bandied about so easily, people were very comfortable dismissing OCD, trauma, PTSD, depression, anxiety, etc. as only happening to 'freaks'. Dismissing is the easiest way to respond because then they don't have to do anything. Regardless of how much these terms are used, as people with these issues, a lot of energy will go into explaining the reality of living with these conditions, unfortunately. A professional should be able to see through the casual use vs the clinical use. If they can't, might wanna rethink because, they too, seem content with minimizing or they are ill informed and not keeping up with their continuing education.

[@kristineharris1469]

I find it very odd that trauma informed care is seen this way by him. As an RN I have taken trauma informed care to be about avoiding triggers, speaking with therapist about their recommendations for patient care, and getting the patient involved! Definitely not avoiding the topic, but allowing the patient to have a voice, feel heard, and take steps to allow them to have informed choices in their care that supports their individual needs regarding triggers/trauma.

[@ashleyduckworthyt3224]

I would agree with your here. Trauma informed care in elementary schools (my previous area of work) usually requires what you listed above. Avoiding the trauma altogether can cause the patient to feel unheard and swept under the rug bc no one wants to acknowledge the issue…. Not good for anyone involved

[@JAMaddict]

Yeah, I feel like a lot of this is very vague, or using definitions inaccurately, or just framing things in a way that misrepresents the things he's arguing against. I keep seeing comments about how insightful and nuanced this video is, but it just isn't ringing true to me at all. I keep thinking "that's not what that means" or "that's not what other people believe." All the while, there's nothing to nail down. What does he consider trauma? Apparently your life has to literally be in danger for it to be trauma? That's.... certainly an opinion. 😂

[@782dolly]

What he describes as distraction is actually tools in trauma informed care called a safety plan and self care plan. Not doing destructive activities but things that can make you less stressed and take you out of your current state of mind.

[@splendidcolors]

I was surprised he suggested "getting drunk" because I've heard so, so often that this is a good way to start depending on alcohol to relieve your mental pain.

[@xmascookies97]

@@splendidcolors I think he meant getting drunk to force yourself to relax, as in it is a possibility for overworked or workaholics who never takes brakes for fun or anything. Not mental pain.

[@JaneAustenAteMyCat]

But then that's not relevant to trauma and the discussion was framed around trauma

[@xmascookies97]

@@JaneAustenAteMyCat But they were talking about stress specifically in when he said that anyways. So even if it wasnt relevant to the whole theme, he still talked about stress right then and there, and it was included.

[@amandaforrester7636]

​@@xmascookies97 I don't think he knows anything about real trauma. He said that sexual abuse survivors don't want to talk about their experiences because it makes OTHER PEOPLE uncomfortable. No dude. It makes ME UNCOMFORTABLE and TRIGGERS ME DEEPLY to share that story. He's mixing up highly stressful situations with trauma.

[@nadineo1983]

As a severe trauma survivor, and my fellow cptsd survivors in my groups hate this book and this guy. He said people can't suppress the memory and then have symptoms later. I have experienced this exact thing he said doesn't exist. I have cptsd. I am legally disabled from it. I suppressed memories...so many. I had a memory resurface during IFS therapy. The body keeps the score explains what happens soooooo well. I kept getting severe anxiety while laying down. Nothing around me would be happening and then all of a sudden I would have a freeze response caused by severe anxiety. I would feel like I was being smothered like something really big. I had a suspicion all my life that my dad was a bad person but I didn't have any of those memories.... It was just a feeling. Then I told my mom about my suspicion about my dad and then told her about this crushing sensation I would get physically and it would send me into a trauma response. She told me that when I was a little toddler, my dad would lay right on top of me when I was a toddler when kissing me goodnight. I started connecting the dots and memories started coming back that I can't talk about and my body would have physical reactions. I literally dissociate to this day. The stuff this guy is saying is giving me anxiety because it feels like he is denying my experience.

[@lorigbasmajian3843]

It's a wite male telling us what trauma and discomfort is ...he doesn't understand what patriarchy can do to women. Doesn't understand the power patriarchy gives to men

[@thomascalcott1659]

Wondered if anyone else picked up on that. I know some one who has experienced similar things to you and they are seeing a highly qualified trauma therapist who is bringing the repressed memories back to help process them properly and it's really incredible stuff. So to hear this guy saying it doesn't exist was shocking. I wasn't sure about him from the start as i noticed in the first 15 minutes he contradicted himself several times but I stopped after he said that. I'm definitely more on the side of Dr Gabor Maté. Good luck on your therapy journey, keep fitting, you're not alone

[@danaappendino7818]

I have lived the same. I recovered my memory past year when I was able to scape from my home. I always had the symptoms but as I lived with them I couldn't remember. When I was safe, I started remembering. It takes a strong mind to repress this type of memories in order to survive, but hey we exist.

[@counterintuitivepanda4555]

Yes. I feel the same way as you. I think Gabor said it best when he said "trauma isnt what happens to you but your reaction to what happened". Because the main factor that decides the impact of trauma is how it becomes stored in peoples nervous systems. And CPTSD is stored the same as PTSD. I really do dislike what he is pushing. I watched some of this guys clips. I believe he doesnt have a nuanced views about things.

[@OpinionatedLittleBrat-qr2kb]

I experienced prolonged trauma (child SA age 9-13) and remember so many people trying to sympathise with me over the *fact* my life was ruined. But, my life isn't ruined. I've been affected by what happened and some things are still being affected, but many parts of my life are good. Survivors shouldn't be told their life is over or won't ever be the same. You can regain the trust and wonder and innocence and decide to pursue good.

[@AndrewFriedberg]

I went through severe physical trauma when I was very young. I was in a car accident where my mother died beside me. I was in the hospital for a few days, but largely my trauma is/was emotional. "The Body Keeps the Score" was instrumental in me finding EMDR treatment which helped lead me to some real recovery. I would be curious what traumas professor Bonanno has overcome and how easily he did it. But without any context, he seems to look at trauma as some sort of weakness and himself as some sort of gatekeeper for it.

[@Xplreli]

I too found a lot of insight in that book. Nothing is perfect but from a research perspective there’s a lot of good stuff in there.

[@Kaye09MNchick]

I agree. I think discrediting "The Body Keeps the Score" would be unethical without evidence to back it up. It has helped soooo many people and, the science and research is still somewhat newer and should be continued to be researched. However, I don't think it would be wise to discredit the book and work just to get his point across without any evidence/research to back his claims up that "The Body Keeps the Score" is not creditable or factual. Also, it's just a good book to read if someone is struggling with their own traumas. It's a good read and, very interesting. It also doesn't mean that "The Body Keeps the Score" is the end all be all. It's just one person's/organization's research into trauma and traumatization with evidence to back it up. However, there was quite a bit of anecdotal evidence used so I do think we need even more research into trauma and what causes people to become traumatized.

[@njmusica]

That right there is trauma

[@HisSecretSmile]

@@Kaye09MNchick Well he was also talking about the author's other professional opinions as well. for example he was talking about how the author believes that trauma has nothing whatsoever to do with cognition and their idea that there is a malfuction that happens that prevents memory from being processed and formed in the 1st place. He is also completely against CBT dispite the empirical evidence in support of it. I personally don't think they said anything unethical. its nothing that the author hasn't said about other things like CBT and he has also said them without dragging evidence into things cause its not like these professionals prep for podcasts and interviews like they are presenting evidence and an argument for or against something. its just a conversation.

[@Mia-her8ii]

I disagree. He seems very knowledgeable about the subject and showed no fear in correcting some misunderstandings about it.

[@milomoon1374]

I absolutely love this take on post traumatic growth! It is very pressuring. Like no. I am not responsible to be a better human than the average just because I overcame trauma. I’m already incredible for surviving.

[@Jooshyb]

As someone with Autism and C-PTSD... I'm very disappointed in the lack of depth in this psych professors perspective. He needs to address how people with Dissociative Disorders don't experience repression! Also I'm glad epigenetics were brought up in this conversation. Of course trauma from a single event would be less likely to cause epigenetic changes than an everyday experience, because the everyday experience gets reinforced daily. But what happens if the environment a child consistently exists in is conducive to trauma, and high alert is always required. Glossing over developmental psychology as being complicated is cop-out. I appreciate conversations about how damaging pop-psych has been. I appreciate researching fact-checking and giving insight as to what the evidence is. I'd love for a future guest with clinical experience to come on and discuss trauma

[@annawood8912]

Thank you for this comment. I’m not diagnosed with autism or adhd but I do have many of those traits, and mainstream psychology is not working well at all for me. This podcast made me feel like there’s something wrong with me, and that I’m alone 😞

[@splendidcolors]

I agree. I'd love to see someone who is working with patients. Also, if you like discussions debunking pop-psych there are a couple of podcasts that analyze pop-psych best sellers (such as "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus") as well as other subject material. "If Books Could Kill" is one, and one of the hosts has a different podcast with a different co-host focusing on diet culture (which includes some pop-psych content) called "Maintenance Phase."

[@catsmom129]

I think some of the problem may be the term “repressed memory.” It’s tied up with Freudian analysis. It seemed like he was rejecting the Freudian concept, while ignoring that there may be *other mechanisms* that effect memory! I know I’ve had traumatic amnesia. I clearly remember one morning, when I was 12, waking up confused and disoriented. I couldn’t remember *anything* about the previous day. I wasn’t sure how much time I had lost, days or weeks? It turned out to be a school day. When I got on the school bus, I told my friends, “I can’t remember anything.” They told me I had been acting weird lately, but couldn’t explain it further. I may never put all the pieces together, but I strongly suspect that they were describing some type of dissociative behavior. I know I was in an abusive environment-I’ve never forgotten the routine violence and sexual coercion I was dealing with. I think that an extreme incident set off the amnesia. (I’ve remembered some fragments, but not the whole event.) Anyway, I don’t know the exact mechanism that happened in my brain. The neurologists can study brain mechanisms. I don’t have to know *how* it happened to know that my experience is real. I don’t care about Freudian whatever. I’m sick of people dismissing the idea of dissociative amnesia just because they don’t like some outdated theoretical concept.

[@Hey_Damj]

Ok, let me offer you something to think about as a fellow neurodivergent. We experience certain types of events that most people would experience as an adverse or simply annoying. We experience it as traumatic because we have not learned how to see the difference between these two types of events. What I have observed since we have been able to find community with other ASD and ADHD people is our propensity to wallow in our “trauma” and swallow each other’s adversity by constantly retelling stories of difficult or adverse events. The best thing you can do is learn to tell the difference between adversity and real trauma like SA, losing your home or adversity like getting a bad grade or being ignored by a cashier at Starbucks.

[@michellemariejanewalsh5302]

What happens to a child well you adapt to your situation to survive in the basic illogical form. This build resilience in the child that others wouldn't have however they will grow up to be dysfunctional and an adverse childhood lead to having to over come more disadvantages that's other have however it can lead to to face further adversities in adulthood. At that point how much can resilience get you through and how much is too much straw on the camels back before it breaks.

[@benzeboy5]

Hey Dr. Mike, I'm a new grad RN and long-time fan. I hear you say your definitions of Trauma Informed Care (TIC), and I believe you both were exposed to an uncharitable view of TIC that isn't widespread, and I agree would be unworkable. In my understanding, education, and the general culture in the hospital field of Trauma Informed Care, I'd summarize it as: "Anyone may hold trauma, and in the intimate and vulnerable context of healthcare, that trauma may cause a variety of types of inflammation. Therefore, avoid engaging in conduct that is unnecessarily likely to be inflammatory, and be sure to watch for signs of that type of inflammation, and reconsider your approach if you do." That is much more workable and true to the theory as I've experience/learned/used it, as opposed to the theory we are all may have trauma we "don't know about or don't want to talk about" which would lead to a sort of "walking on egg-shells" approach to care. Good discussion otherwise, thanks!

[@splendidcolors]

Thank you, this is consistent with what I have heard as a patient. He really reminded me of old conservative dudes complaining about "college students are snowflakes these days, demanding safe spaces and participation trophies."

[@benzeboy5]

Thanks. For what it's worth, I'll offer that I broadly agree with slices of that sentiment. Having just finished many years of college, there is a huge lack in opportunities to be wrong about sensitive issues, to fail milestones, and to be challenged to grow. It's a lot of going through motions and hearing affirmations. I got lots of participation trophies I earned but aren't meaningful, and many people shun push-back on critical conversations because friction and conflict of any type is shunned broadly. There's absolutely a culture that anything difficult is traumatic in many students and that's a problem of environment and opportunity and experience. I don't believe the answer is to say "kids are too sensitive these days" and add more pointless "toss 'em in, sink or swim" moments. But there's a lot of truth that students over react to any degree of pushback and friction they'll meet in a fulfilling life and career, which is an unhealthy trend worth addressing. @@splendidcolors

[@roecocoa]

​@@benzeboy5 Extreme aversion to conflict sometimes develops as a response to stress or trauma. Sometimes I wonder if the perceived oversensitivity of younger people comes from growing up with constant awareness of things like school shootings and climate change.

[@TrinityTheOnly]

👍🏼

[@elusivecamel]

I don't want to come off like I'm being dismissive of TIC and how you described it but is it not just general common sense and manners? Most people will generally avoid topics of trauma in everyday conversations without needing to think about it because A: it's not a common topic to discuss, and B: People don't really want to have unpleasant conversations unless there is a need to have them. Also someone who has been physically assaulted shouldn't be having trauma responses because people shouldn't just be grabbing people for no reason ( I understand some people do touch others when they shouldn't but most people seem to know not to do it).

[@juliaorpheus]

People who experienced childhood trauma are far more vulnerable to PTSD as adults. So, if six people witness a car crash and two experience PTSD from the crash and three do not, a major factor to determine who will develop PTSD is "did you have a traumatic childhood". Also, a strong social support network impacts recovery from a potentially traumatizing event.' A safe childhood and a strong support network isn't something that can be "taught" to the 1/3 of people who develop PTSD. The danger in the arguments presented here is that it overemphasizes the term "resilience" in PTSD when "resilience" is simply having the privilege of having a solid support system and a childhood that wasn't shaped by persistent and ongoing traumatic events. I think people get angry about the kinds of arguments presented here because it implies that there's something morally inferior in people who succumb to PTSD and their lack of resilience is shameful and even voluntary to some extent. I agree that the overuse of the term "trauma" is harmful, but I think more harm comes from conversations like this that lack nuance and reinforce the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" method of recovery which isn't possible a large percentage of people who experience potentially traumatic events. Also what about the ACES study? I don't see how a medical doctor can have a discussion about trauma without mentioning this research that links childhood trauma to adult onset illness regardless of lifestyle choices. That research is solid, with a HUGE sample size studies over the course of 20 years. I'm very happy to listen to critical takes on trauma, but I don't think this conversation was very helpful.

[@aurelianlauer2638]

Yes I was also surprised ACES weren't mentioned at all

[@leanned9251]

Well, this conversation definitely helped me as a mental health nurse working with patients and clients that had experience a traumatic event and that had developed PTSD from it. Your statement above is separating an individual who have PTSD and saying that they are not as resilient, when indeed there many people suffering from PTSD AND is resilient in their own terms on what a successful life means for them. I believe the issue that you are highlighting is victim blaming, and this is an area that people need to be educated on and show more empathy towards the individuals that had experienced a traumatic event. And not once in this podcast that they denied that childhood trauma does not carry on onto adulthood, instead they mentioned how humans are more than capable to overcome a tragic happening with coping tools, and not denying that those events ever happened.

[@anamembrives3411]

Thank you🥲

[@diya-hn2wy]

i’m coming into this with good faith and not to argue but here goes-i’m not sure where the implication that having PTSD is morally inferior? to me it felt like an academic mentioning data that finds that 2/3rd of people are able to bounce back from a potentially traumatic event on average while 1/3rd are not. why that 1/3rd are not was never discussed as a personal failing but rather just a thing that happens. That data adds up and I do think it’s important information as it tells us more about why people bounce back vs why people don’t (not something we need to be telling someone with PTSD though, as he said). I do think this is a psych academic thing to give reasons such as ‘belief in oneself’ and ‘social support’ which we in sociology would track down to things like class privilege. I personally feel that some of the comments are doing that thing where they take data to be a personal insult, rather than just a statistic. But that was just my feeling, open to hear yours!

[@lostintranslation286]

Yess

[@zarathe1st]

The people I know who truly are suffering because of their trauma do take responsibility for their healing, but still get told they're "playing the victim" or that their trauma isn't "real trauma". This is such a complicated issue.

[@goop847]

Thank you

[@annaleckiemusic]

Im so glad you had this guy on, I don’t know if I fully agree with him though. I think there are so many factors to what dictates a “trauma” and it’s impacts on health, epigentics, lifestyle factors, community support at the time, and community support afterwards. I honestly think this guy has a rather narrow view of trauma

[@kainengonzales]

In opinion, does that mean we can also have too broad an interpretation of a trauma?

[@AA-qt1hi]

Yes. We are definitely overusing the the word trauma. I myself have found myself using "traumatized" in situations that have merely made me socially uncomfortable. Pulling back from that. I feel like it actually downplays people who truly have an intense negative impact . I remain self aware and I continue to make a conscious effort to be more authentic with articulating myself.

[@MeganMurphey-og3kk]

I’m in your same position here

[@Tracymmo]

As someone who grew up with violence, I appreciate that. It's been disheartening to hear people misuse these terms.

[@Jason-fp7vi]

Thanks, that is cool of you, really it is. When it's been decades since something happened, and you can still see and hear it when you close your eyes at night. Every single day you can hear it replay. And there's such a divide, who you once were, and who you became the second it happened. It becomes frustrating when every negative event is termed "trauma" now. I understand language morphs and for some people words are just words. It is appreciated when people try to scale back over using the term. Thank you

[@Ruby_33]

I have been through a lot of trauma but sometimes I like to joke about situations that aren't traumatizing at all to test the waters to see how people feel about talking about certain mental health things. To me its more so a tool of just testing the waters with people rather than having the intention of purely wanting to use it as a joke.

[@kimsdharma]

If people had access to mental healthcare they wouldn't have to rely on books and Youtrube. I'm 4 months in to an intensive PHP for trauma and some of the treatment is based on the same concepts as The Body Keeps The Score. Complex PTSD isn't recognized in the DSM, and this is a DSM guy. It's saving my life. Important to note though this that isn't something we can self diagnose. CPTSD, ADHD, and BPD (now conceptualized by some as a form of CPTSD) have a lot of overlap. It takes time and expertise. People need more access to Psychiatrists and licensed therapists, not "my book is better than that book". Look to the reasons people are turning to books in the first place.. For many it's the only help available.

[@JaneAustenAteMyCat]

Well said. Also, CPTSD is recognised outside the US. It does make me wonder if there's a vested interest, given that the US healthcare system is profit driven, rather than outcome driven, in keeping the status quo.

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

But… if I understood correctly his book is not at all about diagnose, it is about the normotypical experience of trauma, that is all. It is not for people experiencing real disorders.

[@kimsdharma]

@@anainesgonzalez8868 He doesn't recognize CPTSD as a "real disorder" because it's not in the DSM. Untreated PTSD / CPTSD can be mistaken for many things, only a Psychiatrist / licensed therapist can make a diagnosis over time. It's not for anyone else to assume and dismissing it can be lethal. This doctor in particular seems to have issues around trauma informed care and current treatment modalities which is too bad,, because they work. Everyone in my PHP is making massive strides.

[@AIHumanEquality]

That's why universal healthcare is so important. It gives everyone access.

[@amazinggrapes3045]

I'm actually gonna argue in his favor in this point because he explains that the "diagnosis" is just a collection of problems that they lump together and call "symptoms". He pointed out that there's a good reason why we replay the event over and over, for example. Most alleged "mental disorders" are features, not bugs, and he actually acknowledges that. That doesn't sound like a "DSM guy" to me.

[@physicianskitchen]

I think this is a perfect example why therapy can't be replaced with AI. There's the research and numbers and statistics which are incredibly valuable and then there is a real individual human being in front of the therapist for whom not all of it may apply. Our med schools professors used to tell us the illness does not read the medical books lol.

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

Exactly! That does not mean the research has less value. Both things are important

[@amazinggrapes3045]

In my personal experience, chatbots make me feel better, therapists make me feel worse

[@FoxenASMR]

34:02 this conversation is wonderful, right here I can’t help but thinking about my mother, who’s extremely rare mast cell immune disease was only triggered due to stress and utterly changed her life. She doesn’t see this as a trauma, she was intensely stressed out to the point where her body started to interpret her own biology as a threat. But this was all self-induced, she didn’t need to overwork herself to that degree, she’d just been so obsessed with her job that she stopped caring for her well being. Now she can’t work, but hey let me tell you she’s happier than she’s ever been and after years of treatments and medications and meditation she’s thriving even with her incurable disease ❤

[@tanyap8838]

repression of traumatic events exists. people with complex PTSD remember old traumas after a year, two, three years of therapy. without therapy they would not remember these events. they are often surprised and say “how could I forget this?”

[@zoeyelh]

i agree. i've come across people who display very obvious trauma related behaviours and they don't know they went through trauma.

[@ScarletMarie0007]

Repression exists but isn't true of everyone. I and many others with CPTSD have never forgotten/repressed any of their major traumas and some (like myself) have almost photographic memory of what they went through since going through it and try to forget or ignore/deny it happened but never repess the memory.

[@PatronSilverWave]

@@ScarletMarie0007of course it isn’t true of everyone, but that doesn’t mean it should be ignored 🫶

[@ConejitoPequenito]

There's a group advocating for the scientific dismissal of repressed memories... almost entirely made up of parents accused of CSA. (A documentary on that is here on youtube.) C.A. cases include repression so commonly that many countries' laws are written to include them (f.e., the statue of limitations ends 10 years after the victim remembers) As multiple studies find, the number of mental health workers who believe in repressed memories differs depending on whether they actually talk to patients or do research. An example for this is Dr Mike believing in it, and the researcher being sceptical.

[@narratornate8841]

Just one of the multiple bad takes in the video

[@jamesben1]

I think it’s important to try encourage resilience whilst being mindful that some people are worse equipped to deal with life’s problems than others. Economically, mentally, socially etc. Tough love is definitely valuable and has helped me in the past. But the idea of tough love can be taken to extremes and used to justify horrible behaviour. Basically, balance is important.

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

Exactly!

[@EM-rm2xh]

So often how much money you have to have access to services to help gets left out of the conversation.

[@Mia-her8ii]

yes😊

[@amazinggrapes3045]

"tough love" is BS

[@catsmom129]

Good point. It’s one thing to challenge someone, and to hold them accountable. It’s another thing to abuse someone or violate their boundaries and call it “tough love.”

[@jessicareed]

I appreciate the discourse, but this feels a lot like an academic perspective vs. a real-life, hands-on perspective. For example, trauma informed care is NOT primarily about avoiding triggering unknown-by-the-client trauma. It's about being aware that people have life experiences that you, the clinician, may not know about, and then being sensitive to avoiding re-traumatizing some one by forcing them to discuss upsetting things outside of necessity. For example, I am a cancer patient of ten years. I HATE going to a new doctor of any kind, because they always want me to rehash years of cancer experiences that might not really be relevant to getting a cast on a broken arm, for example. Is this traumatizing? Maybe not, would it cause a severe mental health spiral if I were having a really rough day? Yeah - reliving my worst days is hard for me. Trauma informed care may acknowledge the background, ask if there's a connection, but not asking unnecessary questions or deep-diving into irrelevant histories. The CRUX of "trauma informed care" is to avoid re-traumatizing people when it is within your power. I think it's about being mental-health-aware, and considerate of your client's feelings and experiences. I agree that the word trauma has reached the point where it's like the word "Depression". People get depressed, they might experiences a depression in their mood - but that doesn't mean they have "clinical depression". People can go through upsetting or difficult things that are "traumatizing", without it causing PTSD. But then, would the world really be worse off if more people were kind and recognized that everyone is going through something. As some one who has had cancer twice, had a bone marrow transplant, and nearly died a few times - I am recognize that people can only understand the world through their own perspective and life experience, and your worst may be akin to my best day. Any thing that encourages others to be more empathetic, gracious, and kind is a good thing in my book.

[@steoderfragt1821]

What a great comment

[@felixhenson9926]

^ this this this

[@christianhayden231]

This is such an accurate description of trauma informed care 🙏🏾🙏🏾

[@KidarWolf]

Hm. I started watching this, as a person who actually was diagnosed with PTSD, under the stricter definitions in DSM IV, rather than DSM V, and I have to admit my initial reaction was "surely the only person who can define whether something was traumatic was the person who experienced the trauma". This is not to say that valid points are not being made, but a caution towards professionals in recognizing that not all minds work the same way, and that what is not traumatic to one person may be deeply so to another because of a difference in their particular resilience. I think it's still very important not to overlook that experience is subjective, and deeply influenced by the way a person's mind works, particularly around the time they experienced that trauma. Someone who is already struggling psychologically is likely to be less resilient against events than someone who is healthy psychologically at the time of a potentially traumatic event. I'll have to continue watching later, as unfortunately, I don't have the time to watch and listen to this in its entirety at the moment - I do look forward to revisiting this later, both as someone with, as I view it, now well-controlled PTSD (but not cured, there are still some difficulties to work through, but it's within the realm of possibility, something which wasn't possible for me some even just six years ago), and as someone who took psychology as part of an International Baccalaureate program.

[@abunlover]

I agree and disagree. There are differences in how people react to traumatic situations. One situation can lead someone to have PTSD while another person comes away without it. My therapist explained it to me (when I was diagnosed with CPTSD to my surprise) because I was having trouble reconciling that my mental and physical reactions were a result of situations that I was minimizing by trying to use logic to overcome it (aka: that situation should not have caused me trauma, it wasn't objectively bad enough). My point being, that people do not experience traumatic situations the same, but there are still mental and physical symptoms of trauma that can be diagnosed by an external expert to help someone, like me, who has separated themselves from the traumatic events as an attempt to cope.

[@jparrish6360]

Agreed

[@JubrieI]

I've been diagnosed with C-PTSD and a dissociative disorder(also well-controlled through lots of therapy), but it was a massive struggle figuring it all out because it was so complex and the dissociation got in the way all the time. So thanks for commenting this. I really dislike it when health professionals are too fixated on the written rules. I mean, psychology as a whole needs some flexibility of mind because as you say it is highly subjective. Besides that, I think a lot of people experience things in their life that create mechanisms for how they cope and how healthy they are emotionally. We live in a highly repressive society. That is not something to just dismiss. It's good that we're so much more open about these topics so we can learn from them, big or small. So in my opinion 'gatekeeping' trauma is not necessarily constructive. It is serving a purpose, and I'd never want to dismiss someone else's experience or pain, measuring it's severity when you can never truly see or know where someone stands - because it truly caused me so much hurt and halted my recovery when this would be done to me. It wasn't until I found people who truly had insight and empathy and respect that I started to heal the huge gaping hole of mistrust and absolute fear of sharing bits about myself, without instantly dissociating and forgetting why I have all those mental issues 😅

[@dilemmaleary]

I think this is a good point, however, when I was diagnosed with PTSD (DSM V), because I was in love with my abuser and didn’t fear him I didn’t consider myself traumatized. In essence, some battered women don’t consider themselves traumatized or battered a lot of the time even when they are because they feel love and not fear towards their partner. It took me years of therapy to undo the “love” I had for him and to recognize my autonomy, so I don’t think it’s best to solely rely on if a person THINKS they’re traumatized since trauma can really show up in weird forms: like stockholm syndrome-like (outdated term but the general situation) reactions.

[@lemmyorleans]

This is how you end up with an over diagnosis of trauma. You end up with all the doctor diagnosed cases of trauma plus all the self diagnosed cases. As the author talks about, the definition of trauma has been popularly expanded, so when any individual says I have trauma, you need to first ask, what's your definition of trauma?

[@nancyferguson6011]

There is so much invalidating and dismissing trauma

[@SgtLion]

I appreciate the candid chat, but I think a lot of this talk comes from an odd place. There's a lot of talk of "we should take responsibility for our actions" and "we can control our lives". But what does that really mean? You're either saying people could just decide to feel better and more able to do things and they're willingly not, or you admit that people need intervention in some form to feel that way (even if that intervention is simply in the form of "you could consider doing this"). The idea of having responsibility for yourself is a very meaningless concept when you dig into it - Your actions are wholly determined by your environment.

[@EvanBear]

Just comes across as victim blaming. Imagine someone saying that to you about a broken leg. "You have to take responsibility of your action and control your leg breaking". "I was hit by a car." "You should've looked both ways." "I did, the driver was asleep" "You're just avoiding responsibility and pretending like things aren't your fault". IMAGINE. Any doctor saying something like that would be fired.

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

MOST people have control and can deal with bad things that happen to them. The important part is MOST

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

@@EvanBearhe is not a doctor

[@Xplreli]

@@EvanBearalthough you are right, think of it another way. It’s not that persons fault that they got hit by a car, but it is their responsibility too show up to physical therapy and take their pain meds and work on healing.

[@old_grey_cat]

A little extra info: several studies, including a great New Zealand one, have shown that there are genetic bases for personality tendencies (which influence actions) and for the behavioural patterns after experiencing a harsh childhood environment compared with patterns after a comfortable one. It seems that support for families affects the rate of violence and imprisonment for some genetic lines more than others.

[@lyngirllove]

Doctor Mike having the important and difficult conversations in a respectful way is something I am absolutely here for 🔥❤️

[@WorldsOkayestSorcerer]

Thank you, Dr. Mike, for having this conversation with someone who is honest about what so many people get wrong about trauma. From a licensed trauma therapist who is beyond tired of the sloganization of something that never needed to be sloganized.

[@annabelapurva-madhuri4861]

Therapist (mental health social worker) here. I appreciate the intention to have a nuanced discussion and he did make some good points, however many of them are point blank flawed and even out of touch

[@lucie03]

I'd say the most horrific feeling I've ever experienced was being reminded of traumatic events I had completely blocked out of my memory. I would just be enjoying my day, casually say something about "how I luckily never experienced sexual assault" in a conversation and then get weird looks by the people around me, telling me they know I have been SA'd. I would deny it but as they would give details, the memories would flood back, and it was like I was in the shoes of that 9 year old girl again. I've had to relive that trauma and other trauma's multiple times this way, and it's terrible. You're reminded that you're a control freak because of the lack of control you had over your own body and over the situation back then, and now you can't even control your own memories. You remember again why you recoil the moment someone touches you; it's not because you're "weird" like you always believed, it was because of your experiences. As a child, I struggled with major depression because "Why was I sad? I have the perfect life, no trauma, perfect parents, etc." Having to keep finding out and forgetting again why I behaved the way I did was so so painful, but not knowing and still displaying all the symptoms of trauma was even worse. It made me feel like I was insane, weak, dramatic.. Repression is real, and it's very very harmful to leave it unaddressed from my experience. And that's why I'm gonna stop watching this video because I'm used to people not relating or understanding this struggle, but hearing a professional say he thinks my experiences are "not real" goes too far.

[@nadiariggs5110]

That’s exactly how I feel as well❤.

[@lisarodriguez6966]

I'm sorry and you shouldn't watch if it's too upsetting. You said you initially had no memory until others told you it happened, and how it happened and what was done? Have you wondered if you're experiencing implanted/suggested memories?

[@lucie03]

@@lisarodriguez6966 no I know for sure it happened, the guy that SA'd me was a known creep and I'm the one that got the evidence to get him locked up, so there are police reports and a lot of people who knew the guy and 100% believed that he'd be capable. I've also never had anyone bring it up in the first few years after it happened because I was a kid and my parents were happy to see it didn't affect me (they had no idea I completely blocked it out). Despite no one talking to me about it I still had developed an unhealthy fear of men, fear of sudden touch/noises, and a sense of shame/guilt I couldn't shake off (he told me "not to tell anyone" and I promised him I wouldn't but I did it anyway and got him locked up, which really f*cked with my preteen brain). So it's not like I only showed signs after I remembered again, it actually got a better when I remembered! The idea of implanted memories sounds scary though-

[@msguineapigsrus]

@@lisarodriguez6966 seriously gtfo. Do not ask trauma survivors if they have implanted/suggested memories. Those are extremely rare and very different. You are being incredibly insensitive and callous.

[@lisarodriguez6966]

@@msguineapigsrus I didn't mean to be. Given the circumstances shared, it seemed possible. I would think a psychiatrist/therapist/psychologist etc would explore it, too.

[@denieceb2766]

I just wrote my psych paper on parental PTSD the effect it has on children. I’m so glad this is being addressed because so many of us have experienced trauma growing up and just in general.

[@Mmcay]

I love Dr. Mike’s interviews and his thoughtful style of questioning, but I found this “expert” to be uninformative. The way he dismissed development and trauma as something he can’t speak to, had me over the video.

[@Alice-si8uz]

@@Mmcay Yeah he has no idea about how trauma affects people... the reason people block out traumatic memories is because its not safe for the person to have access to them. If they can't escape or avoid (fight, flight freeze or fawn which is a known biological response) the trauma in any way then the only thing they can do is shut down and try and minimize the pain of the event. That becomes a pattern and if trauma happens from a young age then it becomes how the person has learnt to cope with difficult events. It might not be safe to remember for years or even decades but once away from the events that trauma has to be dealt with at some point. I do like the idea of "distraction" in trauma in that it is just part of response to difficult events to want to distract yourself. It's not healthy to be thinking of painful events all the time, that just wears a person down over time. I also like the glass of water analogy I've seen. At different stages of our lives we have different sized cups we can use to hold stress. If we experience traumatic events or general struggle some water is put in the glass. As we get older our glass gets bigger (we can cope with more stress) but the thing is if the last cups from when we were younger is still full due to an excess of stress then what we can handle then the next glass is already full after 'barely anything' happens...

[@Kaye09MNchick]

@@Alice-si8uz Yes! I'm a licensed social worker and this is exactly how I was taught to view trauma and, how I see trauma as someone who has also lived through it. I literally watched videos of therapy sessions and how (especially children) can react after a traumatic event/events. Especially when there is long-term stress/choas, etc.

[@rorydonaldson2794]

@@Alice-si8uz that was a fantastic way to view things. I really like that glass of water analogy I am absolutely remembering that

[@hasnaindev]

@@Alice-si8uz I went through extreme amount of stressors as a teen for about half a decade. I didn't consciously repress anything but I have had stomach problems and recently got diagnosed with Peptic Ulcers. I knew that I wouldn't live beyond 40. I barely talk and cannot talk properly either. I don't feel sad but rather super empty and my memory is EXTREMELY weak. What I have been doing for the past month has been to just close my eyes and try to FEEL. I let one emotion out that would take me to a certain memory that I never thought about. I kept doing it and one day after I offered Salah (Muslim prayer/meditation), I felt extremely calm for the first time in a decade!! I had like neutral memories come up that I seem to have forgotten. The more I experience the repressed emotions, the more I seem to open up certain memories. My memory is also a little better now and I can open up to people and communicate. I'm no psychologist but the expert above seem to avoiding something by focusing too much on resilience in order to hide from his shadow, he did say he works too much, maybe he never went through anything or maybe I don't know western culture and language. I do know "depressed" and "trauma" is through around a lot. Although, as a Muslim, I can't drink and I HIGHLY disagree with these methods. Spirituality is a deep human need. Nothing has helped me as much as Allah, remembering Him constantly and asking Him for help. I can't say the same about other religions but each teaching of Islam is there to help you on a mental, psychological, physiological and neurological levels. I hope we can some day drop our stigmas and study its effect on people. I might just do that myself.

[@gijoe918]

I love that he describes glove amnesia, literally a form of repressed memory, in the same interview that he says repressed memories don't exist

[@JAMaddict]

Honestly, when he's not contradicting himself he's talking in such vague generalities that it's nearly impossible to critique or support his arguments. It was an hour and a half of hard to pin down ideas. I listened to the whole thing and I have no idea what he considers trauma to be. And that feels like an incredibly important thing to nail down. It's hard to evaluate or refute the things he's so unclear about what qualifies as trauma or not. He also talks about trauma as if it's a monolith. It's not. There are so many factors that determine whether people will be resilient or not. Childhood trauma vs adult trauma, for instance. And even among childhood trauma survivors- their outcomes vary WILDLY based on things like was their environment overall supportive and nurturing? Children who experience a traumatic event but otherwise have a support and stability are going to fare better than kids who don't. IDK. This didn't teach me anything, and it certainly didn't convince me to read his book.

[@gijoe918]

@@JAMaddict yea I honestly wish Dr. Mike would have been more critical of him and call him on several things

[@Coco-572]

Why did this episode not get a ton of views . It’s ok. It’s still trickling out into human knowledge to broaden our views . We can remain in the position of being open to the various perspectives . Love it. Thank you young man for being a pioneer helping to enhance young people to think critically and bring all the experiences and thoughts together .

[@amazinggrapes3045]

I think what the guy is missing is that if you are traumatized by something but you are told repeatedly "that wasn't that bad (if it was bad at all)" most people will start to believe that and that creates the disconnect between their symptoms and the traumatic events. If people are told it was insignificant they're going to be at a loss when it comes to understanding themselves because they won't understand how it shaped them. And when you tell someone that they're not experiencing trauma because your body wouldn't be kicked into fight or flight mode from a looming deadline or a person being verbally aggressive to you, you're trying to cause that represssion, and you're not realizing that you are damned lucky that you haven't been conditioned to react that way. Pavlov's dogs weren't making the decision to salivate. Their bodies kept the score for them. All his arguments stem from a simple lack of empathy (and an illusion of control. No, people don't control their own lives and situations. People are not tha individually powerful. Some of them don't suffer enough misfortune to have that revelation, that's all, or they feel powerful by being in a position of power over others--like a teacher or professor deciding the fates of his students). This guy is arguing that waterboarding isn't torture because you're not at risk of severe injury or death. He doesn't realize that the body doesn't know and doesn't care. He doesn't realize that no one would call something torture if no one had been tortured by it.

[@counterintuitivepanda4555]

Very outdated view imo and totally not nuanced at all.

[@gijoe918]

I have had clients who have extremely strong trauma response to a stimuli, with zero knowledge of what is causing it, which flies in the face of his statement that, "people who have gone through events sever enough to cause a change in their physical being are very aware of these events"

[@hawleyolsen170]

I can add my experience to that, too. I had an emotional flashback once, years ago, and ended up crying through a martial arts class. It felt like the crying wasn't me. What was me, was the total confusion as to why I was crying and the dismay that I couldn't make it stop. Now that I've read a little bit about emotional flashbacks, it's easy to connect the dots. If that sudden upswell of fear and sadness was left over from my childhood, then I immediately know what first made the feeling as well as what triggered it. It's so very obvious, once I factor in the possibility of trauma. Strange, though, that in the moment I couldn't find any way to account for what I was feeling or why it was coming up like this.

[@stretchkitty21]

Not saying it's not possible, but there are physical conditions that greatly increase anxiety and stress. Like many forms of dysautonomia.. Messed up autonomic nerves system being messed up can definitely mimic a trauma response.. I have POTS (type of dysautonomia that effects the heart rate especially) . They're times I have a high heart rate and feel so incredibly anxious... Thoughts about what could go wrong (what might already be wrong) often come after the tachycardia... But if I recognize it and take a beta blocker to reduce my heart rate then the stress and stressful thoughts go down with the lower heart rate.

[@raquelfantoni2812]

How do you know the response is caused by a forgotten or repressed trauma?

[@gijoe918]

@@stretchkitty21 o absolutely medical conditions should always be considered and rulled out

[@gijoe918]

@@raquelfantoni2812 because after a bit of therapy the memory resurfaced and after it was worked through the trauma response lessened greatly or ended completely

[@DianaMarie23051]

Honestly, I think it’s quite dangerous to tell someone who is not coping well to go get drunk. Some people do not handle alcohol well. You have your happy drunks. Your angry drunks. And then you have your sad drunks. I am a twice suicide survivor, 10 years apart, immediate family. And alcohol made it worse for the both of them. And I am left behind to suffer from it forever.

[@TheIndigoSystem]

Yet I developed BPD and DID. The window of tolerance is a thing. Some can experience extreme trauma and be okay, some can experience milder trauma but to that person is broke them. No need to dismiss or diminish people’s trauma.

[@JaneAustenAteMyCat]

It did come across as victim blaming in parts

[@wmdkitty]

DID is not real, you just have a maladaptive fantasy liife.

[@Minaverse24]

The crew is here...yet we dont want to be🙃 its sad how even if you are diagnosed you have to teach yourself a lot of things bc doctors are either like this or a lot worse. And its "shocking" how messed up the world is. Sending hugs to anyone who is ok with them❤

[@Lovequalpeace]

I did not get that vibe at all. I feel so bad for these medical professionals nowadays people are so senstitive. they can hardly do their jobs without being called dismissive, or gaslighting. Such a sad place we come when feelings rule over logic and common sense.

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

I also have BPD and I do not find this professor to be dismissive. He just said that the most common path is resilience, which is plainly obvious really. Not all people who experience what I experienced develop metal pathologies. That doesnt mean I didn’t or that I am at fault because I did.

[@emmsy_san]

The fact that he learned about trauma informed care through his daughter when, as an RN BSN, trauma informed care was a key point in our education… he’s the psych I would rather die than be treated by. I’m an ER nurse and our emergency department has an acute care behavioral health unit, the only of its kind in the large city I live/work in. So we see sooo many BHAC patients. Against my best wishes I’m sometimes the “psych nurse” that patients have when being screened, held for placement, despite not being “properly” trained. I’m an ER nurse, my priorities are very different from a trained psych nurse and yet even I understand how to address patients who are in a vulnerable position. His ignorance is aggravating and honestly mind blowing that he’s a professor, teaching others to address trauma in such a way. Maybe us younger individuals are redefining medicine and questioning diagnostic criteria, asking more questions in general? I’m excited for how medicine will change in the years to come as our generation becomes the majority and these older medical professionals retire. Bye beech 👋

[@lollybirdy]

I have complex PTSD. I literally dont remember my entire life. Im in therapy for it but it's scary sometimes. You dont remember anything that makes you who you are.

[@KeroseneSkies]

I'm kinda the opposite to you! I have CPTSD but I remember practically EVERYTHING and a lot of the times the flashbacks are random and when I least expect them. I had a memory I suddenly remembered years after it happened that did surprise me though! It was like I had forgotten I was holding onto it because so much other stuff had happened for me to process. I hope you have some good progress with your therapy :)

[@shane_rm1025]

I believe the term for that is amnesia

[@karethap8827]

41:23 "I'm talking about it but I barely know about this stuff..." Sums up most of the interview. He's talking like an expert when he is sharing opinions, and he doesn't seem to care that his ignorance is really significant. Mike's pushback right before that is on point. This guy really comes across like an armchair psychiatrist who, while he's thought and read some stuff, has never actually gotten into the field and done the work. I hate that he's a professor. Students tend to trust and elevate the opinions of those who are instructing them and this guy thinks he's got the facts when there is soooo much he gets wrong.

[@ruthhorowitz7625]

That book helped me so much. I have been asking myself why do bad things always happen to me my entire life. In 2022,at age 57, I was diagnosed with autism. Now I have my answer.

[@no-ah3185]

Someone should please tell him that there is a distinction between the expression of “that exam was so traumatic” and its usage as a lived disorder. A bit like when people say “oh my goodness I’m dying” and a patient with no pulse.

[@c.j.r.02]

I think he knows that and it was his point. He was saying that the vernacular over use has negatively affected our culture.

[@no-ah3185]

@@c.j.r.02 the examples he gave of over-usage were of arbitrary colloquialisms. Over-usage can be applied to most words where the clinical definition differs to its social connotations.

[@c.j.r.02]

@@no-ah3185 that’s your opinion

[@AlienZizi]

@@c.j.r.02 yeah no he took it further than just "we shouldnt misuse and trivialize these words and concepts"

[@Tracymmo]

I would be glad if people stopped misusing these terms. "Triggering" seems to mean something unpleasant. That's not what a trauma response looks like.

[@jessiscrafty8592]

This is very dangerous. The second we start gatekeeping what can be called traumatic, we will have fewer people accessing the help that they need. Similarly, when I was at my lowest with depression and an eating disorder, I was convinced I wasn’t “sick enough” to deserve help, because I didn’t meet the BMI requirement that was in the DSM at the time. The criteria has since changed, and there has been an increase in people accessing life saving help. Even perpetuating his over-used phrase of “most people are resilient” sounds incredibly demeaning. Those that have a harder time getting through adversity would,with that in mind, likely question “what is wrong with me?” Which seems to epitomize the problem with the circular thinking that is often blamed for many mental illnesses. Some things really aren’t in our control. Brain chemistry, genetics, mental illness, physiological illnesses, etc. I like to think of trauma vs PTSD as similar to the difference between disordered eating vs an eating disorder, or occasionally drinking to cope vs. alcoholism. Just as anyone can have a drink and not become an alcoholic and anyone can diet and not end up with an eating disorder, anyone can experience trauma and not have PTSD. Many people are predisposed to mental illness or addiction. Genetics can load the gun, environment and lifestyle pull the trigger. None of those are fully within our control, and one of them is 100% NOT within our control.

[@chrystianaw8256]

It's not dangerous. It's true. The term trauma is being overused.

[@rvdb7363]

There is also danger in overusing the term. Most people are able to recover from potentially traumatic events without help. If you start calling every painful event trauma, they might feel worse because you made it a medical issue in need of treatment. Calling everything a trauma also makes that people who've developed PTSD are taken less seriously. People will say that you should just get over it because everyone has had traumas. While not realising that there is a big difference between you being shaken up for two days after a near accident and constantly reliving the memory of abuse, a severe car crash or seeing someone being killed. Similar to how too many people say to clinically depressed people that they should just go out more, because that helped them when they felt a bit blue. Also, that someone wasn't resilient in one situation (and developed PTSD) doesn't mean that they won't be resilient in a different situation. I was diagnosed with PTSD over a traumatic event I went through as a kid. Took me a lot of time, therapy and effort, but I can now lead a normal life. Last year, I almost died because of my allergy. My primary care doctor was worried because of my past. The first two weeks it did affect me. I had trouble sleeping and I had a few panic attacks and trouble trusting food. But these symptoms quickly subsided and life returned to normal.

[@amazinggrapes3045]

​@@chrystianaw8256it is not. It is being used enough by people who are suffering more than you are, and that annoys you because you can't empathize with them

[@justanotherjessica]

I gave it a fair shot but I cannot finish this video. This man doesn't even understand trauma-informed care. Why didn't he GOOGLE it instead of asking a freaking teenager? The simple explanation is that it's being sensitive to how trauma can affect someone and changing the way you provide care to avoid hurting someone. A big example is gynecologists. A LOT of people have sexual assault in their past which IS traumatic (although I bet this man thinks that it's not) so assuming that someone *might* have a history of assault and being very gentle when performing pelvic exams and pap smears is a good idea. How is being sensitive to the needs of others harmful?

[@JamieR]

I find Dr. Aimie Apigians way of presenting what trauma is---is solid. Trauma is not what happened to us, but our capacity to tolerate the event. Lets take a car crash. Two people involved. Both come out relatively unscathed, but it was a scary crash. One come out feelling fine and go on without any further issues. The other end up traumatized.

[@pdub707]

And we can't figure out why. We don't know, yet, what causes one person to be resilient and the other to not be. We are making guestimates on what influences it, but we don't know. One thing we can do is stop blaming people who aren't 'resilient'.

[@TheLixan]

I am not an expert by any means, but the more I listen to this man, the more convinced I am that he has never experienced real trauma. Not to mention how much he disregards the sheer subjectivity of a traumatic experience.

[@dumbdonny4824]

I felt the same. He never accurately describes actually experiences trauma or the aftermath so I was extremely put off.

[@dumbdonny4824]

@cuzIjust mostly just ignorant to the topic but I see what you meant

[@jungkooks_microwavephobia]

I think its weird he tries to gatekeep PTSD to the rarer type caused by life-threatening/near death experiences when on a general population level most PTSD patients have it from sexual assault or child abuse. Also again he considers trauma only worth considering if a patient is completely unable to function in their daily life, which is like saying you only have heart problems if you’re going into cardiac arrest. Oh you‘re heart is only working 30%? You‘re moving on with your life!

[@anthonyrispo1229]

That is untrue. He has quite the story. It isn’t my place to explain it.

[@22Tantrums]

As a licensed psychologist that specializes in PTSD, this discussion was invaluable. Dr. Bonanno's observations are spot-on! We need to normalize that life can be hard but that hard doesn't always equate with psychologically "traumatizing". I learned more from this than from most of my recent continuing ed 🤣

[@rmeehan93]

‘You don’t know suffering until you’ve suffered’. I think there’s a big difference between someone who has studied trauma and mental health versus someone who has experienced trauma personally. ‘We’re the expert in our own illness’ essentially. We just need safety and understanding, and to be seen and heard 💛

[@amazinggrapes3045]

There's also the phenomenon of people being less sympathetic to others who have gone through something that they have. Which explains a lot but is horrible

[@rmeehan93]

@@amazinggrapes3045 how do you mean ? Like a person that hasn’t fully healed isn’t sympathetic towards others ?

[@KristinaBauer-o6i]

I agree ❤

[@colamity_5000]

It's also very important for dispassionate experts to research how our conceptions of trauma influence the experience of trauma which is what this guy is doing.

[@narratornate8841]

​@@colamity_5000he's claiming to. He has only done it on a surface level with information from teenagers, and information that has changed in ten years.

[@Barbara.Rothman]

Why so few views? This is great work, a conversation with two smart people, it was very interesting to hear about the trauma itself. Thank you, I'm watching you from Ukraine.

[@ParaTara]

The model of trauma informed care isn’t about pushing ideas of repression lol.

[@eveathome]

I highly recommend “The Body Keeps the Score” to anyone who has experienced trauma of any kind. Because in the book he deals with a huge range of different types of trauma and how it can affect you and real practical tips for helping overcome it. The book helped me with the severe abuse i experienced as a kid and growing up with a narcissist parent as well. I’ve read it many times and it’s the first book where I felt like “oh so there is finally a name for the thing I’m feeling, or the thing that happened” it’s truly life changing and don’t let this podcast make you feel weird or abnormal.

[@eladpeleg745]

I don't think I experienced childhood trauma but I was going through the hardest period of my life when I chanced upon it and it was as though it were my only friend in the whole world. It just understood me. The guy can call it unscientific all he wants but this book changes lives. Being snide about it is kind of disgusting.

[@amazinggrapes3045]

There is something to be said with Mike's example of feeling bad for feeling good. Growing up I never blamed myself for things adults did to me, but most of what I find about childhood trauma just takes it as a given that everyone does, which is alienating.

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Facts

[@trayolphia5756]

I don’t usually have the time to devote to listening to the long form discussion podcast - but this one I most definitely DID - as it directly relates to my PTSD diagnosis after an event at my former job as a truck driver…where a pedestrian jumped in front of my truck to end themselves…so I have to live with the memory of ending someone’s life

[@drruthannharpur]

So so happy to see this - as a clinical psychologist who works with a lot of people who are suffering as a result of traumatic experiences. We need this kind of nuance. Thank you Dr Mike and George Bonanno!

[@chirondawn2966]

i disagree with the point he made about suppression, i am 36, when I was about 4-7 years old I was sexually abused, my whole life went on normal and at 27 years old, i had a sudden and impactful memory of that event as if it happened all over again and no triggers, no emotional situation that opened up this memory, i was totally relaxed playing solitare laying down then BOOM the memory smacked me in the face, now i CANT forget it, been in therapy since and working on forgiveness but now I cant speak or talk to my abuser but it has not affected me in any other relationships or daily life. my dad died right before my 3rd bday and that loss and grief has been labeled as " complicated grief disorder" but that hasnt impacted me too harshly in my life its affecting me yes, but no anxiety no ptsd no abandonment issues so am I just that resilient??

[@narratornate8841]

Agreed, there are actually a number of points and flaws throughout the video that I really disagree with. I made a comment going through and listing them, and I am still adding to it as I watch the video, but some of the things he says just...really aren't good. And seem to undercut his credibility at certain points.

[@jj96432]

@@narratornate8841 i think the contrary actually. I feel that the fact that he is confident to say stuff that can be rather controversial in today's internet age speaks to his research and knowledge on the matter. And if today's population is so receptive to differing opinions, we shouldnt discredit him just because he holds a different view from most

[@narratornate8841]

@@jj96432 no, but he is claiming to be a professional and saying a lot of modern issues are invalid without having treated anyone in over a decade. As he says at the beginning of the video, he hasn't seen a patient in 10 - 15 years, over a decade.

[@TheGoodContent37]

​@@jj96432The problem is that you call "different opinions" to wildly against evidence claims. It's like saying that the earth is flat and you saying that it is healthy to listen to different opinions. Keep your mind open but not as open to let your brain fall out your head.

[@andreavanda5402]

@@jj96432It's not a matter of holding "different views". Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, one of the most eminent researchers of trauma and PTSD, would seriously disagree with the professor who, as he admits, hasn't had clinical contact with patients in over 10 years.

[@scretladyspider]

This is not a defense of Body Keeps the Score, I don’t love that book, but: It is extremely disconcerting to see someone who has studied trauma for years not understand that dissociative episodes and disorders happen, and that physical stimuli can cause flashbacks. Dissociation is a real thing. Dissociative identity disorder and complete flashbacks causing black outs are real things. I have witnessed the second one. I obviously don’t know and it’s not my business, but this strikes me as someone who has not actually experienced severe trauma, or studied trauma in individuals who have ADHD, autism, OCD, and other neurodevelopmental disorders. Additionally, many survivors of SA tell themselves for YEARS that it didn’t happen or wasn’t that bad because the reality of confronting something that traumatic is utterly crushing. I think we do over use the word trauma, but to say people who have been through trauma always want to talk about it, or that every trauma is remembered when complete dissociation is a real phenomenon… it’s heartbreaking. Because this man is teaching people that that’s how trauma manifests and then those students are going to move forward and dismiss trauma that doesn’t present in the way he taught them it would. Again, I think we over use the word trauma when we really mean stressful, and the mind and body are absolutely connected, but this is such a narrow, privileged way to view trauma, especially complex trauma.

[@wmdkitty]

No. DID is not real, it's an overactive imagination.

[@avee2056]

Other people have said it better, but I really didn't appreciate the way this man articulated his point. It felt very pedantic and dismissve. He tried to couch his words to not minimize trauma, but at the same time minimized the importance of our societal conversation around trauma because he thinks we're not using it right?

[@AnxietyRaptor]

I will disclose, I was diagnosed with cptsd at 16 in 2013. This man through the interview and the question doctor Mike asks sounds rather frustrated with the ability of others. A few times he dances around the idea of, “get up, get it done, and move on.” He sounds exasperated with those who are affected by events he wouldn’t find qualifying as trauma.

[@sparksmcgee6641]

No he clearly states 2/3rd of people aren't "traumatized" by an event but 1/3 is.

[@AnxietyRaptor]

@@sparksmcgee6641 and? That has to do with my commentary how?

[@c.j.r.02]

Well it is frustrating because so many young people are “traumatized” by little life things.

[@imapandaperson]

@@c.j.r.02 no they aren't. Young people are willing to admit they were affected by something stressful instead of normalizing their dysfunction like older generations have. They aren't more sensitive, they are more self aware. The number of older people who drink/smoke heavily to drown out their trauma, "parent" their children by hitting/yelling or being conditional and manipulative because they never had kindness or healthy communication modeled to them, and who dig their heels in and refuse to go to therapy when their kid mentions a behavior is harming their relationship, and yet insist they somehow don't have trauma, is astounding.

[@c.j.r.02]

@@imapandaperson I see what you are saying. I agree that older generations deal with stress in negative ways such as drinking etc. But, I disagree with your stance over all. Stress can be a powerful and positive thing, and the younger generation overall doesn’t know what real stress is and how to get over and through it. Also, older generations may have many people that deal with situations negatively, but so does the younger generations. If not more.

[@eddiehayes1523]

I agree that the word trauma is overused. However, I disagree regarding some of his criticisms of Bessel van Kolk's work. We are biological creatures - we experience trauma via our bodies because we can't disconnect our mind (via our brain) from our bodies. The mind/body dichotomy is false because we are biological beings and can't get away from that. Yes, humans are resilient. To experience suffering and react to it by feeling hurt/sad etc. is normal. It doesn't mean you have to get PTSD. I'd like you to interview Bessel van Kolk and get his take on this too please.

[@Xython88]

I’m going through a very difficult time right now due to experiencing an armed holdup. Talks like this really help. Thankyou for this.

[@HelloAdna]

It’s really bold of him to say that people don’t want to talk about sexual abuse and trauma because it’ll make OTHER people uncomfortable. Looking back I don’t know if he meant that it makes the victim uncomfortable or if he is referring to other people in the conversation uncomfortable. But this made me feel icky. Anecdotally, it’s difficult to talk about sexual trauma because of how stressed it makes the victim feel to revisit those occurrences and remember what happened to them. Even with people they trust. It’s not a good feeling to revisit things like that but it’s weird of this psychologist to simplify it in such a way.

[@Tracymmo]

A lot of people who haven't been through it don't know how to respond to the topic. I deal with a version of that when I mention that I grew up with domestic violence. People ask "did you get hit?", which is a typical misunderstanding of how abuse works.

[@tea-wo2yr]

I would have to agree with him tho people don’t want to talk about their sexual abuse or trauma bc they think it will make other people uncomfortable which is understandable

[@maryjack08]

In my experience it's absolutely true. I'm comfortable (as much as possible) talking about my trauma but other people don't want to hear it. We don't teach society as a whole how to cope when someone discloses abuse to you. Training exists, but it's only really offered if you work in social services or seek it out

[@JAMaddict]

Yeah. Something people don't understand about sexual trauma is it truly ISN'T like talking about other traumas. My sexuality and what goes on in my bedroom are extremely private topics. I don't talk about them in general. But when it comes to sexual trauma, it's not JUST trauma, but it's trauma about my naked body, trauma about something that is intensely personal and private. It's not the same as talking about a car accident or a parent dying or something. I mean, it's like asking someone to talk about how their sister died, but also talk about your nipples, too. It's private, but when it comes to sexual trauma so many people seem to strip it of that privacy. People think they have the right to casual answers about EXTREMELY private questions. "Well, did he r-pe you? Did he do (this particular sex act)?" One of the ways I have taken my power back is by NOT talking about those things. Those topics don't belong to other people. They don't have the right to know, even if they are brazen enough to ask. If I asked people to give me similar details on their happy, healthy, married sex life they would be aghast, but they don't hesitate to ask me those questions about my childhood assault. But what really bothers me is he didn't explain trauma. I still have no idea what this man considers "trauma," outside of a couple of times he says that it has to include danger to your life. He hints at what he thinks trauma *isn't* but never tells us what his definitely of trauma is, which makes any critique of what he's saying extremely difficult. I was very, very underwhelmed by this video. Kind of disappointed in Dr. Mike for hyping him up so much and praising him so heavily.

[@AlexiasPlaylist]

I mean I literally didn't talk about it for 20 years for that exact reason

[@imcarakins]

Can i just say that i am very impressed with how civil this conversation was, and how respectful they were when talking about religion. And, more surprisingly, how civil this comment section is! Everybody is sharing their ideas in a respectful and open minded way. No hate towards the opposite side, just a good space to share your beleifs on the topic. I really appreciate all these good tempered people in the comments! ❤😊

[@Fluff-gl6yr]

10:45 I think his answer to this question basically sums up everything he believes. He basically holds a collection of old-fashioned values and is educated enough to dress them up as fresh and original. The unfortunate fact is that if people were truly capable of helping themselves to the extent he suggests, they would be doing so.

[@Fluff-gl6yr]

Ok he loves Frank Zappa so I’m letting him off the hook, we’re best friends now

[@klauskeller6380]

thats the thing though. they are doing so. most people are okay after a bad experience

[@Cardboardruna]

It's as we haven't known for decades that there's a clear correlation between childhood adversity and both physical and psychological illnesses in adulthood. This is evidenced by a MASSIVE study over a long time period. I gave up on the conversation when he told the audience that trauma can't be forgotten. Empirical evidence shows otherwise in cases where the trauma is severe and occurs early in life. For the severely traumatized, forgetting is literally a survival skill to survive childhood. Which very strongly suggests that the ability to forget is selected for evolutionarily.

[@dappostamin]

Are people resilient and find ways to survive? Yes. Does trauma (or many mental health problems) prevents these resilient people from leading a fulfilling functional lives? Also yes.

[@sgtsongbird]

I have PTSD. Last spring I was held hostage, beaten, and almost strangled to death. I know I have PTSD. Multiple doctors have individually diagnosed me, and they all agree that I definitely have PTSD. This video and a lot of the things Prof. Bonanno is saying make me feel like maybe I actually don't have PTSD and I'm just way overreacting. He makes me feel like I'm doing something bad or somehow malicious, just by existing as a traumatized person. It's bad enough I have to live inside the nightmares and flashbacks, but to then be told to just stop having them because "we are in control of our own thoughts/feelings" is repugnant, not to mention flat out impossible. The uncontrollable nature of nightmares and flashbacks are literally what defines them. People with this "It's not really that bad, just get over it already" mindset are extremely dangerous to those with a fragile psyche and emotions due to PTSD, and I don't think this professor has any business teaching about trauma. Please don't invite him back, Doctor Mike. I love your content but I can't expose myself to any more of his mindset, it's too damaging to me

[@sugoish9461]

I really respect and appreciate that you shared your perspective, and I think you worded it very well. Please know that if the doctor actually working with you says one thing, and a stranger online says something else while talking about people broadly... You're not wrong for believing your physician first and foremost. I hope you will continue to trust them first and foremost, since they are the one who has been witnessing and working with you and your specific situation. What happened to you was awful and I hope you find relief from the worst of the symptoms with time. I have CPTSD which works a little differently, but when I started taking Sertraline as an antidepressant for my depression, it actually in my case dampened my PTSD symptoms like 80% or so. Completely mind-blowing difference (didn't work on the depression though haha, but I've found a different med that does, thankfully). I know that experience is a bit rare, but I hope you can find something like that for yourself, too. Your pain is real. It exists and it deserves to be taken seriously. I wish you all the best.

[@sgtsongbird]

@user-vp4cq8mt4f My therapist has mentioned the term but we haven't covered it in the workbook yet. I'm still in the "acutely traumatized" stage, I imagine we won't start work on post-traumatic growth til after that passes

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

I am really sorry about what you experienced and are going through right now. Your pain is absolutely real and as valid as any other feeling you might experience. Have you ever come across therapist in social media that give relationship advice? They always will put a warning in their content: “this doesn’t apply to abuse” . I think it is the same here. The data he talked about here does not apply to your case specifically or does not help it. As someone said in another comment I hope you are able to find relief soon.

[@sgtsongbird]

@@anainesgonzalez8868 thank you very much, I appreciate you saying so

[@JubrieI]

I totally agree with you that health professionals with this mindset are counter productive for recovery, even in a setting such as this on the internet they can do a lot of damage to traumatized people that are still searching and fragile, as it kind of latches on to you and can take a long time to shake off.

[@Luu-LyMAI]

So happy that mental health and mind-body discussions are here. Mike, you know we need more on this, esp anxiety and adult ADHD, these are usually misdiagnosed, understated, overstated, overgeneralized and really disturbing in such way. Doctor Mike, we need this.

[@willbe3043]

The vibes are off with this man but we appreciate you putting on all kinds of people with all kinds of opinions on our feeds Dr. Mike!

[@lonelylama5222]

Vibes are wrong? What do you mean? That’s rude

[@Fanniemilia1]

I am so happy to see a doctor who is willing to discuss, learn, debate and create valuable information from many differend perspectives. This is truly interesting and helpful expesially for us who work in the healthcare field around the world. Most of all I hope people learnfrom this healthy ways to critic, evaluate and discuss treatment lines and science. Doctors are people too and the best ones are humble and on a life long learning trip. Thank you Dr. Mike!

[@Maeshalanadae]

Trauma is the the resulting condition of fear and avoidance the mind sets up as a defensive mechanism against an experience so darkly negative and impactful that it changes the very view of the world the sufferer experiences. Trauma is the lesson a previously carefree or superficially cautious mind learns when it discovers that true harm can occur to it.

[@karynstouffer3562]

I understand what you're saying, but I believe what you're describing is actually the trauma reaction. Trauma is the actual thing that happens. The reaction is what you do afterwards, such as avoidance, dissociation, fawning, etc.

[@Maeshalanadae]

@@karynstouffer3562 Yeah, you are right there. I suppose I should more clearly state that what trauma is, is the point during said damaging experience, when the mind actually snaps and switches from the former state to the latter. The moment of realization that intense damage has been done and the stress can’t be handled any longer.

[@pdub707]

@@Maeshalanadae what you originally said was well-spoken and you got your point across. Sometimes it is not necessary to quibble over semantics. Sure, if you are in academics, clinical care or research the specifics are necessary, not here.

[@rquaidpro]

"It takes the responsibility away from how we feel and how we react in life." /*chef's kiss/*

[@amazinggrapes3045]

Free will is an illusion you cling to because you are not strong enough to handle the truth

[@victoriamerlo7559]

That’s not the definition of trauma informed care. Also trauma repression is real, although many individuals do remember their traumatic experiences. You can’t have a spectrum in only the areas that make sense to you or fit your opinion. I do like your change of language around potentially traumatic experiences.

[@irinashapiro9192]

Dr Bonanno! One of my favorite professor!!! So nice to hear him discuss this topic!

[@MandyR0116]

To those with childhood trauma, please remember this man is just an academic who’s postulating/gatekeeping to try to sell his book. Your story is your story and doesn’t change because this man doesn’t know if there’s a mechanism to compartmentalize your early trauma. It seems similar to the fact that we don’t know how lithium works, but it absolutely works in those who can tolerate it. You’re valid and your trauma is valid. Keep going :) I’ve come out the other end after 10 years of therapy and treatment and it’s absolutely worth it. You’re worth it ❤

[@EmperorPenguinXRemas]

Bessel's theory is just wrong. Current evidence regarding brain evolution does not support his theory, neither are most assumptions in Porges theory. Most body work is at best moderately effective without a proper theory.

[@ScarletNo-tu9uv]

YESSS TY

[@michaelm9710]

I don’t see the issue you’re concerned about. I was abused as a child and then abandoned to foster care when the state stepped in. I didn’t hear anything in what he said that made me feel he was saying that my experience wasn’t traumatic. He even noted that sexual abuse is one of the types of trauma people don’t want to talk about - he acknowledged stigma is a problem in addressing trauma responses. If you heard him saying that the experience has to be life threatening and interpreted that as meaning child abuse doesn’t count, I disagree. Any child abuse is life threatening and I am confident he would agree. Ok - so I can tell you’re a good hearted person. What’s your concern here? With care

[@ghostratsarah]

Thank you for this. Seeing your comment definitely calmed me down.

[@carliemecque]

Yes!! This! Thank you!! Xo

[@Nerdychicka1]

Love this conversation. I love that you guys talked about what Is our level of control over situations like this. I’ve had moments of depression in my life like I’m sure most people would relate to. It was hard and took longer than I expected to get better, but what I found seemed to make sense in my recovery was that we can’t always control how we feel (so don’t judge yourself on emotions), but we can control how we act. Sometimes doing the actions to look after ourselves (eating healthy, staying in touch with loved ones, exercising) often results in our slow progression towards feeling better. And sometimes the healing process is two steps forward one step back. But I felt like there was always light at the end even when I thought there never would be

[@Nerdychicka1]

In saying this please don’t assume I don’t support further medical help if people find after doing what they can and the situation isn’t improving. I 100% support medication/ therapy if the individual feels they want/ need it

[@Lindsoiderf]

Yeah, very obvious he doesn't actually work with people and just studies things. Which is great but it puts you behind.

[@gabriellamanley9779]

What makes you think that

[@laciebohlen3559]

"I'm talking about it, but I barely know about this stuff." Clearly.

[@TheLlaura90]

right? I don't understand how this book even happened because he doesn't seem to have a strong understanding on the subject

[@davidblack9071]

He was talking specifically about epigenetics.

[@rmeehan93]

Our resilience depends on how balanced our nervous system is. If we’re off balance and have a lot of anxiety our tolerance for stress will likely be low and everything will most likely be overwhelming and too much for us.

[@EM-rm2xh]

I'd also argue resilience is based on how much money you have.

[@e.k.4508]

​@@EM-rm2xha lot of money will certainly provide access to good therapy. And shield you from getting other trauma's

[@eininw]

​@@EM-rm2xh Having strong set of healthy social bonds before a traumatic event happens is a stronger predictor of resilience. You do have a point though. More access to resources and being further from danger of starvation, disease, or homelessness (i.e. having more money) helps. Like the saying, "Money doesn't make you happy, but it makes it a lot easier.'

[@catsmom129]

@@eininwYes, social bonds help create resilience. I’ve heard that a child having one supportive adult in their life can help them get through a rough period. It bugged me that he just said, “Resilience is the norm,” without talking about which factors actually support it. Otherwise it could imply that if you’re not resilient, you’re just broken. When really, you may have been isolated and dealing with constant trauma.

[@scottkidder9046]

I think it’s also worth noting that resilience has nothing to do with character. The only reason some people can go through traumatic events and not be traumatized to the point of dysfunction is because they got lucky. There’s nothing better about them in the sense that they have more will power or better character. They just happen to have a brain that’s more resilient. It was dumb luck. There are things we can do to try to help people be more resilient, but your inherent resilience was never up to you. So if you are more sensitive to traumatic events than others, don’t think that you are worse than other people. There are advantages to being sensitive to trauma and there are disadvantages. If you are more sensitive, you are probably way less likely to commit acts that are traumatic to others, and you probably physically care more about things and other people than your more resilient counterparts, or at least, you have more access to emotions that allow you to communicate your care for others much more effectively than your more resilient counterparts. And of course the downside is that you will have an extremely difficult time handling the realities of life. You should not be putting yourself into potentially traumatic situations. And when something traumatic happens to you, it will wreck you. So don’t feel bad whether you are more or less resilient. It has nothing to do with your value as a human being or your character. People aren’t better than you for being more resilient and they are not better than you if they are less resilient. So just don’t play that game. Do what you need to do to function and maybe even thrive despite what life throws at you.

[@shakeyj4523]

The other thing people don't realize is that you can experience a trauma once, and be resilient, and later experience the exact same trauma and suffer PTSD. But your point is a very good one.

[@AlienZizi]

i totally agree and want to add another consideration! support systems. they are mostly down to luck too, starting with the family youre born into. after that you have more power to build your own support network but its pretty hard to replace a family, especially when you dont know what a healthy one should feel like.. experiencing a bad life event is much easier when you have someone in your corner to comfort and help you.

[@sierraramrattan5164]

I agree, I also think resilience looks different for different people. someone struggling with cooccurring depression or anxiety may be more sensitive to events, others may not be. for these people, just pushing through the day and fulfilling their responsibilities takes a lot of resilience and strength.

[@missrobinhoodie]

Learning about the traumatic events my dad went through in his childhood (emotional neglect by his parents and death of his sister) is a key for me to understand my own personality as his trauma shaped the way I grew up and our family functioned. When I went through depression and divorce I came out stronger on the other side because I had ressources and support. Meanwhile he‘s still struggling with his „fate“ being in his 60s. Back in the day there was no psychological care for children who lost a sibling. And it still shows in my dad over 50 years later.

[@missrobinhoodie]

So maybe „trauma“ is experiencing traumatic events without proper support or „aftercare“?

[@Nastasiati]

This is one of the most interesting conversations I’ve heard. Very respectful debate and makes you somewhat uncomfortable with what being said at times, but also makes you question your own views

[@SarahCunha007]

Loved Dr. Mike's interviewing and questioning, did not love how little it seems the interviewee actually understands about trauma outside of his biased and outdated ideals.

[@raquelfantoni2812]

A great conversation. It’s NORMAL to forget childhood. The traumatic portions are unfortunately more, not less, likely to be remembered. There are exceptions of course, but not being able to remember any, or much of, childhood is not a sign of a traumatic childhood

[@daniellegraber9755]

Thank you dr mike for pushing back on him around his ideas on repressed memories. His approach there sounds a bit old school and not in keeping with our current understanding of complex trauma and developmental trauma especially.

[@Ashleyyy414]

Dr. Mike, I started off by watching a lot of your reaction videos and whatnot, but I must say, you're actually a fantastic interviewer too. I'm so glad you ventured out to youtube with your profession and ability to present this type of information to us all. ❤

[@Inhumantics]

Trauma informed care isn't about tiptoeing around speaking points. I've been privvy to it in jobs working with kids before, as I have worked with kids diagnosed with mental disorders, some of whom experienced traumatic things like house burning down, a relative touching them, drug use in the home . It has to do with knowing when you are working with a vulnerable population that is more susceptible to trauma or less likely to be able to cope with it. It's learning what may bring up a stress response in the brain and how to respond with compassionate care. It's learning what trauma responses are, and how to professionally approach it when they do come up. Essentially, it's not just a cultural term to throw around- it's a way of approaching psychological care that is informed and alert (but not panicked or misconceiving...). I don't think a trauma "expert" would be against trauma informed care. People not understanding what it is? Sure, but it is a clinically validated approach.

[@narratornate8841]

Yeah, dude didn't research it. He spoke to a teenager about it one time.

[@Feranorr2526]

I love the "resilient springs" bit. Springs are designed to absorb things and then return to their original state, but if you overextend them, they break and don't come back from it. I.e. overextending a string is traumatizing it.

[@NicoleLilian-v2g]

Whether or not you agree with everything that's been said, it's still an important debate. We're using the term "trauma" more because it wasn't talked about in the past, but that doesn't mean that the term is also being used incorrectly on social media and that can have consequences on our opinions of events in our lives and how we deal with them. It's never black and white and I'm glad for this podcast.

[@Anonymous-m9f9j]

This discussion is important. You might not agree but having these words and thoughts discussed, no matter how upsetting is important for all of us to be free to civilly talk respectfully

[@alfombra1054]

"I haven't seen patients in many years". Yeah, checks out.

[@Minaverse24]

👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@davidblack9071]

Medical researchers typically don’t see patients when conducting research.

[@frickfrickfrickfrickfrickfrick]

yep

[@morganryen2881]

I understand that the term trauma is over used. Yet, I don't appreciate the idea that someone saying being yelled at is traumatizing to them is an overstretch. If you have PTSD or CPTSD (not yet in the DSM). Someone yelling at you can be a retramatization for many people. Not everyone with trauma is aware the difference of an active trama in the moment and retramatization in one's self.

[@msguineapigsrus]

Being yelled at absolutely can cause trauma. Verbal abuse is still abuse and can lead to PTSD (in particular CPTSD).

[@EsoteriaHealing]

I absolutely have trauma of being yelled at, or talked to in a demeaning manner. It defined my whole existence to be this tiny, small woman who won't speak or do anything to attract attention which resulted in no career, lost family, and so much more.

[@Anonymousbutnotthatone]

I don't even have to be the one getting yelled at and I have to step away. I have a couple of hot headed coworkers who have thrown fits and put me off my work for the rest of the day because I had to re-regulate myself.

[@VioletEmerald]

Imagine being a child and being yelled at in full rage by a parent who you need to rely on for survival. A lot of us, myself included, don't have to imagine. It could absolutely be traumatic even once but an ongoing dynamic with that kind of rage full abuser certainly triggers the primitive fight, flight, or freeze responses in our brains and certainly can be experienced as a trauma. It is upsetting Dr Mike is endorsing a guy who doesn't get such a basic thing. Doesn't believe it.

[@c.j.r.02]

I think he is trying to say that young people on campus often over use “trauma” as a crutch. I think he would agree that people can definitely experience trauma from being yelled at if they have ptsd from being yelled at.

[@niniemecanik]

I've always seen "trauma informed" as just a crucial piece every therapist and certainly the medical field should implement. Too many often victims of abuse feel like the doctor or therapist they confided in wasn't equiped to know how to respond to the situation. And neuro diverse people can have trauma like responses to "normal" situations where professionals have no clue what to do to calm them down. (I'm thinking about autism here, as even "high functioning" autistic people can have their triggers and are already more at risk of being let down by the Healthcare system than an alistic person) The subject of CPTSD is so important to keep in mind too

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

Knowing how to deal with the condition of autism (which I do for work) is not “trauma informed” is knowing about that population and what works for that population particularly, and specially in autism that particular individual. We can not base our standards for interaction with people in a minority

[@msguineapigsrus]

@@anainesgonzalez8868 as an autistic adult.... i highly disagree with your statement. The vast majority of "outward" symptoms of autism are actually the trauma response to living in a world not accommodating to us. Being trauma informed is essential to working with autistics, who are also more susceptible to having trauma conditions like PTSD, as well as being subjected to abuse. Heck, many autistics still get sent through autistic conversion therapy (you may know it as ABA), which is itself directly linked to PTSD. @niniemecanik is absolutely correct here. Also, based on their use of the term allistic, i suspect they are themselves autistic or ND as few people outside of the ND community use that term. Please don't talk over neurodivergent people and autistics about their own experiences.

[@splendidcolors]

And I guess we can't change infrastructure like curbs for a minority... but we did and now everyone with a stroller or shopping cart uses them. There are few things you would do for an Autistic person that wouldn't be helpful to non-Autistic people too. Nobody likes crowded, noisy waiting rooms, nobody wants to have unnecessary equipment beeping in a brightly lighted exam room while they are waiting to see the doctor and in pain, and it's always good to make sure to explain what you are going to do in an exam or procedure.@@anainesgonzalez8868

[@ashleyduckworthyt3224]

Repression completely exists, in my opinion. I’ve seen (and experienced) those who have pushed out entire traumatic memories. Folks with DID have brains that do this on purpose for them… giving an alter the trauma memories and blanking it from their host to protect them.

[@MrChazzels]

OPINION: I think there is a lack of acknowledgement of compounded stress that then creates trauma. I'll use myself as an example. I was 17 when my father died, that same year my mom lost her job, we were forced to move, BOTH of grandparents passed, and three of my friends were killed in car crashes all in one year. NOW based on the conversation that was had, all of these events are "part of life" and wasn't life threatening. NOW compare that to having my spine fully fused at 13 for scoliosis because my ribcage was caving in on my heart and then being thrown out of my house for being gay at 14, both have been clinically diagnosed as traumas, YET the year of loss i experienced has manifested just as much pain, and triggers my anxiety, as much as the two "clinical" traumas in my life. I think im missing part of the conversation because it almost sounds like he's insinuating that trauma cant be overcome to be considered trauma? I appreciate the conversation because we need to move forward with our understanding of mental health. And i think that speaks on why we are seeing an uptick of trauma phrases being thrown around in the younger generations because they are not being heard. From the gun violence, global warming, the pandemic they are all overwhelmed and under supported with their mental health. Self-diagnosing might be there way of rationalizing what they are feeling. I mean I cant imagine being forced to go to school and fear for my life everyday because of mass shootings then having to take a test on the civil war or a subject that presses on those fight or flight triggers. *my two cents*

[@LK-tp2le]

I agree with this compound effect. I've experienced life threatening incidents where I've been in resus and nearly lost my life, yet I was actually more traumatised (left with flashbacks) by a series of less life threatening awful events that occurred within a short space of time. I think when multiple events occur in quick succession our resilience is lowered so we're more vulnerable to being traumatised.

[@amazinggrapes3045]

In school we were shown a documentary for a psychology class. There was a man in it who, on his wedding day, received news that a friend was in a car accident on the way to the wedding. He went for a walk to try to calm down... And didn't come back, because he'd developed dissociative amnesia with fugue. One of the most severe cases of amnesia imaginable, too. He didn't remember what music was. He actually had to ask "what's music?" There is only so much a person can take

[@julia1996.]

Fortunately I have never gone through real loss, but I think in the sense of thinking of the person that is gone I think is very healing the way Irish people do funerals where they do not focus on crying the people their lost but celebrate that they got to meet them, retell the good memories they had with them. I think is a very beautiful way of appreciating the person instead of staying on this space of constant sadness.

[@AmyTheSpiritSinger]

I have ptsd and constantly think why bad things always happen to me and also think that things are never going to get better. I have struggled with this for many, many years...

[@gilbertalvarado5101]

With a severe depression for over 25 years I learned every coping skill imaginable. They were essentially ineffective because of the depression. Now that I’ve got a treatment that worked I still have all of those skills but i know them more intrinsically now and they are useful. Some people just can’t cope without medical intervention. It’s anecdotal, but at the same time I’m sure my experience isn’t THAT unique.

[@gilbertalvarado5101]

Side note: very normal upbringing and no trauma to speak of.