Practical Kata Bunkai: The Common Origin Myth

www.iainaberne...
In this video, I discuss “the common origin myth”. It’s widespread throughout the martial arts and the myth is essentially the false assumption that common methods must have a common origin. In truth, common methods most often evolve independently due to common combative problems and common physiology.
This issue is also complicated by the fact that, over time, many arts have evolved from being holistic in nature to being highly specialised in one area. Modern practitioners therefore incorrectly assume that the specialised art - the one that has developed a given method to the highest level - has sole ownership of those methods and such methods therefore have their unique origins in that system. This leads to a great deal of historical confusion.
Based on such misunderstanding, people often ask questions like “how did those judo throws get in the karate kata (and old texts)?”, “how did that kung-fu joint-lock find its way into jujutsu?”, “how did karate’s knife-hand strike find its way into aikido?”, etc. The false assumption is that any given method can only originate in one place. The truth is that these arts developed common methods independently of each other.
By way of example, the hip throw is found in wrestling, old school boxing, karate, judo, jujutsu, various styles of kung fu, pankration, and so on. The throw did not originate in one place / one art to be exported to all other arts from there. All these systems developed variations on the method independently.
The common origins myth can cause people to misunderstand the development of the martial arts, and it can cause people to posit false historical connections based on common methods. It therefore needs to be identified and challenged whenever it arises.
All the best,
Iain

[@EAmeda7]

Man again we need more teachers like you promoting karate! The exact issue I have with most of the "Do" arts vs the "jutsu" arts

[@mrshawnpp]

My father's style of Tae kwon do, ji do Kwan, had half based in shotokan karate and half in judo and that's how he taught it to me. Ian, you are so correct. Good job.

[@namonaishi]

Love this video. Totally agree. Had an off-topic thought: You use the term holistic a lot and I like that. It lead my thoughts down the rabbit hole to the use of the terms "ship" and "家(ka)". Both are used in their respective languages to indicate an all-encompassing and continuous knowledge and practice of a skill or state of being. The term ship referred to sailing in ancient time when every man on board had to know a little of everything in order for the ship as a whole to make the journey successfully. Sailing, fighting, cooking, cleaning, sewing, carpentry, blacksmithing, fishing, hunting, foraging. In this way terms like swordsmanship, leadership, sportsmanship, friendship all imply an understanding of and ability to do the multitude of different skills necessary in each field or relationship. The Japanese term 家 holds the same meaning by way of usage. It means house or family and refers to old farming-village houses made of wood and thatch. Everyone living in the house needed to know farming, cooking, cleaning, carpentry, thatchwork, sewing, weaving, fishing, hunting, foraging, herbal remedies, wound dressing, etc. Being a karateka 空手家 doesn't simply mean one trains in karate but rather that they are learned in the multitude of skills required in combat via karate. Another important point is that those wooden ships and wooden houses required daily care and maintenance by their occupants. So the terms ship and 家 imply not only knowledge and ability but also daily upkeep, maintenance and repair for the entire life of the practitioner.

[@southpawmoose]

I was always under the impression the karate had knees and elbows as well as kicks and I'm surprised how many people say they barrow TKD kicks for karate or Knees from Muy thai, I'm blown away because, those tools exist in the Karate-do sphere they just are used with a different frequency.

[@AndoMierzwa]

Well said, sir!

[@thomasharrison6367]

Love this... ive been a karateka since 1972 to date and your rational common sense and critical thinking are much needed... necessity is the mother of all invention. Parallel thinking when faced with the same problem leads to the same outcome.. Thomas Edison said I have not failed, I’ve just found 10,000 ways of not how to do it..

[@TonyqTNT]

In maritime transport where seamanship skills were necessary people in diverse regions of the world developed rope tying knot methods that were extremely similar without group interactional contact.

[@alessandrocattaneo4810]

Actually, it's one of the most meaningful things i've heard from Ian, and i don't always agree with him. In fact, there's such a number of misconceptions around "wich moves" are from "wich martial arts" out there it's mind-blowing. First and foremost, people used (and still uses) to think each martial art is specialized, as Ian said. Like, Karate has kicks and punches, and those "weird" blocks; muay thai "adds" elbows and knees; boxe specializes in, and is better at, punches; judo has excellent throws, jujitsu makes joint locks; BJJ has the best ground game (and is seemingly the only thing in the world that does that according to people), ecc Hence, it derives the idea to "cross-train", or to cover the supposed holes each martial art has. Idea first popularized by bruce lee, who DIDN'T KNOW THAT MUCH about martial arts as people believe. MMA comes from here, also. Some other people knows more. They know karate had originally all types of fighting, they know almost all kung fu styles have all, silat has all, ecc. Some pushes this to the point of thinking at a "common origin", again, contrasted by Ian, because it's too much of a stretch of logic. Some stuff have been developed separated but simultaneously, originally, by different styles. People believes all styles are related because they still don't truly believe there can be overlapping in them. Somewhat, they still believe in specialization. Those are all misconceptions very common to hear and that only generates confusion

[@Schoolhousefilms121]

old boxing also had some kicks

[@BelloBudo007]

Well that's something I never knew. thanks for that. I'm guessing that's where & why the Marquess of Queensberry Rules entered the scene?

[@Sandbeck-gp3sd]

Thank you sensei :) Right now I am reading Legend of the Fist by Hanshi Patrick McCarthy. And I am going to read his translations of Motobu Choki. When I lived in Copenhagen I practiced Koryu Uchinadi under Sensei Lennart Kevan and Sensei Jim. R. Sindt :) Now live in Horsens, and practice Shima ha Shorin Ryu and Yamanni Ryu Kobudo in Århus (And I also do Katori Shinto Ryu). In order to get better in the grapling, locking, throwing deparment of Bunkai (and because it is a hell of fun), I want to do jiu jutsu as well. What is your take on that? One of my friends she used to do Ju Jutsu, and now she does Koryu Uchinadi and she clearly has an advantage in my eyes when it comes to bunkai.

[@NaihanchinKempo]

In my case i studied RyuKyu Kempo and the joint locks in Tuite Jitsu To me the Spice and silk trade and other trade,allowed some sharing of Tech. But i do agree. Humans are Built the same minus stocky vs lanky. So techniques will be similar. But i think differences happen based on Body type and landscape. If you fight in wide open area's vs tight area's technique might be looser vs compact. Okinawan style vs TKD etc

[@Outrider74]

Well said. As we humans are all created with the same traits, we will inevitably utilize the same methods in different camps. I'm keeping my ear to the ground for any school in Michigan that's listening to you on the techniques.

[@mark11145]

J. Dean welcome to Original Okinawan Karate. With locations in Grand Rapids, East Lansing and Detroit. I am at the Grand Rapids location.

[@Highlander88]

I am studying now martial arts for about 25 years. Archery, Judo, Karate, Jiu Jitsu, Wing Tsun etc. and you are absolutely right. Everything is not decicated to a special person or culture. I think that the only reason for different stiles is the preference a teacher has. Some like more long distance, other mid distance or grabbling. For a real fight you need all of them. I am a big fan of your bunkai, but please talk a bit slower. That would make it easier to understand your explanations. Thx Willy

[@testianer]

There are only so many different ways of throwing a punch. The wheel has been invented and reinvented many times (not that there is anything wrong with that).

[@raymondfrye5017]

@Mr. Abernathy: What you say is true.Now,there is an alternate theory that fighting arts experts were part of the Ancient Sumerian Empire's priestly class. There is evidence there were cultural,military and commercial exchanges of Sumeria with the Chinese and the Hindus. Military arts included all forms of warfare including preparation of the troops in what is today's hand-to-hand combat. Thus, began the similarities. It wasn't so much boxing and fistic arts like the Greek Pankration (no holds barred), but included weapons training for a complete martial preparation. When I began training in the Okinawan Goju Ryu Shoreikan System in the late '60s many of the bone-breaking, muscle-tearing techniques used hand weapons like knuckledusters with spikes. These brutal maiming and killing methods were only taught to upperclassmen with the required body conditioning and mastery of technique. They had to be carefully vetted to avoid becoming 'mercenaries'. It was all this post-60's sport commercialization that has ruined everything. Kind Regards.

[@captainbeaver_man903]

Its the same reason 2 scientists studying the same thing but on opposite sides of the world can come to the same conclusion, independent of one another.

[@waaagh3203]

Look at wrestling styles that started in different areas. All of them have versions of double leg take downs :D From the Greeks and the Romans to old school Japanese Jujitsu and Chinese Shuai jiao. All have hip tosses, too. And probably a lot more, but I come from Greco and scholastic wrestling. So, I don't know enough about Judo and Shuai jiao, but I bet there are a TON of moves that are very similar and use similar mechanics but developed independently. This obviously comes from ancient ancestors who A. grappled and B. had to use leverage and find an advantage using only what the human body is capable of.

[@markdrewterry]

What the Chief Grand Master of my style of karate refers to as "parallel truths." There's only so many ways of doing things, so people developed similar things. I can easily see how somebody thousands of years ago were wrestling and fighting and somebody threw them over their shoulder and somebody said, "Huh, that looks handy. How'd he do that?" And weapons seems, from an anthropological POV, to be fairly straightforward. You start with a stick or a rock that you use as a club. Then you think, bigger stick. Or weighted stick. Or longer stick. Or, hey, sharpen the end and I can poke with it, or throw it. Then you get some version of the Atlatl to provide leverage for throwing the spear further. And it's a yet another set of evolution to the bow and arrow.

[@goodbuy7556]

love how general your approach is, karate is general, it is all ;D, one question, when someone is going forward with high guard and ready to counter (boxer) what ideally, should I do as a distance karate fighter (Machida, Thompson...)? thanks :D

[@MrMattias87]

This is true. I would also add that martial arts are also derivatives from each other. Eg judo and aikido came from jujutsu, shotokan came from shorin ryu & shuri te and TKD came from shotokan.

[@JuanAMota-pu5zx]

Bruce Lee said something like "as long as we have 2 legs and 2 arms, martial arts will share many techniques". Thank you sensei !

[@swatt70]

Iain, you mentioned old boxing texts. Would you be able to share links or details please? I have been karate-ka since the 80's, whilst my brother's path led him to boxing. We would be very interested in this material.

[@practicalkatabunkai]

There’s lots of old boxing books available via the likes of Amazon, but Kirk Lawson’s stuff is well worth checking out: www.lulu.com/spotlight/lawson Start with “Banned from Boxing”: www.lulu.com/shop/kirk-lawson/banned-from-boxing-the-forgotten-grappling-techniques-of-classic-pugilism-2nd-edition/paperback/product-18632709.html

[@swatt70]

@@practicalkatabunkai Thanks Iain. Love your work by the way. 😁

[@themasterofegal]

Couldnt agree more! Thanks for the video Iain

[@justind2899]

I thoroughly enjoy the premise of what you’re saying. Do you share the same thoughts on Taekwondo and Hapkido since the Japanese occupation of Korea heavily influenced/birthed those martial arts systems?

[@raymondfrye5017]

Rumor is TKD is 1930's Shotokan 2.0.

[@alanwood9822]

Great tutorial Iain, one mistake though you shoot an arrow not fire, no gunpowder involved. An English bowyer corrected myself 50 years ago. Just saying. 😃😃 Regards.

[@practicalkatabunkai]

Good to know! Thank you.

[@liasrvalleysmith7515]

A lot of martial arts did directly take from boxing for punches with big gloves.same with judo throws and trips.

[@nskfdarjeeling]

Nicely put up

[@streetninja81]

Brilliant video! Dispels the myth that all martial arts came from Pankration. I always had a problem with that belief. Thank you!

[@NotOrdinaryInGames]

What you said is true. However, chinese kung fu still had a lot of influence in nearby areas.

[@ruiseartalcorn]

Good stuff! I agree 100%

[@dwardo1066]

The common denominator is the human body, add to that the same brain and we all come to the same conclusions eventually. Happens in science and engineering all the time. Love your work. Now off for some ibuprofen and a pint to recover from an hours Kata and training. Keep em coming,

[@mrmushin1]

Thank you real life high level thinking. I have known this truth for awhile now. Not one country created the first martial arts

[@MarshOakDojoTimPruitt]

thanks Iain !!!

[@haffoc]

Iain, this is good.

[@jamescarlson5174]

Exactly.

[@SenseiEli]

True and very accurate.

[@witri9]

Violence amongst people is as organic as the need for self defense. Thank you Sensei.

[@albertopanza3430]

Makes always sense

[@yzodelgado6735]

,"unless some human beings 3 arms and 3 legs then we will have a different way of fighting"

[@1ばかぶた]

I have find this untrue. I find historical text from online source, from alexander the great era. they are talking about naked philosopers from india, most likely buddhists And based on the text, most likely gymnasium was made by buddhism originally. and in turn pankration boxing is also based on buddhism. also, christiany monastery most likely is based on buddhism too seeing the time frame and nothing like that is taught by jesus

[@practicalkatabunkai]

The idea that India is the sole source for martial arts is not one that stands up to even the slightest scrutiny. Even if all you wrote was right, we are left with the notion that the Greeks had no fighting system until the “philosophers from India” arrived. We also need to remember that the idea of Bodhidharma spreading martial arts to China from India has been roundly debunked by historians (sole source is a fake text from 1000 years later). Martial arts have existed since Tribe A bumped into Tribe B. People learned that their survival rate increased when fighting skills where imparted to other members of their tribe. Like the bow and arrow, different groups of people came to common solutions based on common needs. Common human anatomy means that isolated groups of people will have come to common martial solutions. There is no need to suppose one single group of people worked out how to punch and then it spread it to the rest of humanity who were ignorant of the notion. The idea of one common origan is a myth that can be debunked historically and logically.

[@SuperJamalShah]

Good general info, buddy. No offense, but I'm not a fan of Karate. I mostly like Kung Fu, esp. Shaolin, Silat, Filipino, Savate, Krav Maga, and JKD.

[@michaelspyrou1784]

Well. i think there is an export of knowledge and certain systems did not have to invent something that did work and it was in another system. by merely having a throw in your system it doesn't mean that it works as a judo player would do it. So its practical application might be only theoretical and only look nice. i love your videos.

[@DamKaKaDaNi]

Convergent evolution, yay :)