Practice DOESN'T Make Perfect in Mini Painting - S4E20

[@MalcolmPugh]

As a Guitarist, I interpret "Practice Makes Perminant" means if you practice poorly, you will retain poor technique in your muscle memory. So, "Perfect Practice makes Perfect" calls for making sure that when you sit down to practice you are not repeating bad habits and poor techniques for the sake of sitting down to practice.

[@ThomAshworth]

Came here to say exactly this. Really well expressed. Having been a musician and teacher for 20 years - practising bad technique can be worse than not practising at all.

[@echunia5960]

Same, I think this is what the asker meant as well. What would be examples of bad practice in miniature painting? I think maybe something like the directions of your brush strokes being wrong. I.e. not drawing the brush towards where you want the most amount of paint so that when you remove your brush you get that last bit of paint in a place that should actually have the least. I did this myself for many years and I still struggle to correct this habit.

[@Birdoggydog]

This is what I interpreted it as. The way you practice is the way you do things when it's 'real'. If you practice sloppy, you'll do it sloppy forever. See vincy v's claw hand paint brush holding 😂

[@clinch4402]

I'm a good example of practice makes permanent for playing guitar: - my first guitar was a flying V so I always seat my guitar almost vertically on my left leg - I hold my plectrum between my thumb and second finger - I tremolo strum with my wrist, not my arm - I neglected to use my little finger much so I subconsiously default to my ring finger to play notes further away And so much more.

[@4tooitous]

To expand on this from the perspective of someone who studied fine arts in college, I'd interpret "perfect practice" in painting as things like trying to be efficient with your brushstrokes, focusing on values before blending, etc...

[@benpothier1802]

Love both of you and your advice. A cool thing you can add to the podcast would be for people to send you pictures of their painted miniatures for you to critique.

[@TheMiniMadCat]

Gonna be a bunch of us Brits who once worked for GW, who maybe moderate their speech to avoid any litigious repercussions...

[@bunionsandcabbage6764]

Having not watched the video yet and only basing this on the title, this reminds me of something my old band director used to say. "Practice doesn't make perfect. It makes permanent." What we practice and how we practice it sticks with us, it doesn't always make us better. Update: I had no idea that this would actually be said in the video.

[@RoofusKit]

If you're ever in a situation where you forgot an additive or to remove some of the oil, heat and circulation are always key to drying things. You can use a fan, a space heater on the lowest setting at a safe distance, or a food dehydrator on a very low setting. Those last two you want to avoid softening the model and/or drying the paint too quickly.

[@BoardinNBrewin]

There are some decal tricks that might be a little overboard but will make sure it comes out perfect. Gloss varnish the shoulder pad first. Trim the decal as close as possible to the shape (unless you’re using GW decals that are already the exact shape) and lay it face up on a completely wet paper towel. Coat the surface with a fair bit of Decal Set so the decal will be applied to a wet area. This gives you 30-45 seconds to be able to move it around easily without it sticking, folding or tearing. It’s essentially “floating” on the shoulder pad while you position it (I use something rigid like a toothpick or exacto point). Once it’s in the perfect position, let the Decal Set evaporate until it’s almost dry and apply a coat of Decal Softener. Give that about 30 seconds to soften the decal, then take a Q-tip dipped in softener to roll out any wrinkles. You can press firmly and roll toward the edges of the decal to smooth it like a rolling pin. Hit the whole thing with Matte varnish and once that dries it will literally look like it’s painted on and integrated with the surface with zero lines.

[@mikewicked.x]

I like 2-part 5-minute epoxy for magnistising bases. Its a lot easier too if you just set up a bulk amount of bases and do them all before putting models on them.

[@isisnmagic1812]

This is my second KZbin trapped under plastic after listening to it on spotify and must say it's just as good, now that being said I just paint not p.ay and each miniature I try and push myself to do better than the one previously and I must say that has definitely helped me improve my brush control and see the colours differently.

[@darkayen27]

From a martial arts standpoint I look at the practice vs perfect practice differently. Practicing bad habits or incorrect technique ingrains those wrong ways of doing things. If you practice throwing a punch the wrong way over and over, when you get in fight you will throw that punch wrong and you can't undo it. Perfect practice in that context is practicing correctly: practicing correct technique and good habits. The saying is all about practicing isn't enough, you have to practice right. In mini-painting I am not sure it applies so much; the result matters more than the road you took to get there. Painting is an additive process, so if you do something wrong you can fix it, something not possible with real time arts like fighting or playing an instrument.

[@thomasmeglasson228]

For decals, decal softener will actually melt them a bit and thin them out, reducing that edge. Then with setter and varnish, it will generally make those edges disappear nicely. It is also good/necessary for when your decals are going on uneven surfaces, like over a panel line, or some surface that otherwise makes the decal want to wrinkle.

[@corybaird5012]

1:07:15 to answer Jon’s question to us goodiepp’s: yes I definitely try new things on every model, or try a BETTER way to do something I already know how to do. Better is obviously subjective, but usually for me it means using a color im not as confident in when using a specific technique or style. which I think is something people don’t like to admit. Feathering or glazing or any technique/style can be much harder or easier for someone, depending on the color. So I try to at least understand how different colors or shades of paint act. And then I feel like I can achieve greater results more consistently across different types of models/color schemes.

[@aroncheek5092]

I think the best example is that it's like riding a bike, becoming a race car driver is a good example of practice perfect, technique and timing , knowing the vehicles,tracks

[@OniSushi]

Welcome to trapped under plastic, It's like a miniature AA meeting, and everyone's drinking.

[@AkaIceBear]

Starting this Monday off nice now. 😎

[@AceEclipseRL]

1:02:00 to expand on this, your brain’s muscle memory comes from neural pathways in the brain. Whenever you do a new task you start to pave a new neural pathway. The more you sculpt that pathway, the more familiar and permanent it will become. To better set these pathways is to have a lot of sleep. You do almost all of your learning in REM sleep; as that’s when your brain transfers short term memory to long term. The most important thing is to get high quality reps consistently with a couple break days.

[@sourcedecay]

For decals, use water transfers and Mr Hobby Mark Setter and Mark Softer. Easy peasy

[@JamesLLucas]

Love that you’re getting into all the cool expanded Star Wars stuff! I hope to see some more of it on the channel!?👀

[@terrencemiltner1005]

Well, that's the bar set for introductions. Looking forward to listening to the rest of the episode.

[@QTRBlackGarrett]

Finally! I started watching TUP last episode and I’ve been watching the backlog.

[@PaintHandDan]

59:15 Practice makes permanent / reps create habits - 100% true for motor-skill learning, physiotherapy and muscle memory. Jon's point: To play a song on piano correctly - you need to learn notes PERFECTLY or the song sounds "wrong", 100% 'no mistakes' Scott's Point: Rehearsing ad nauseum until the habit is refined and skill is honed for a perfect result - like MLB Sluggers with "wack" batting stances that CRUSH +400ft homers. Any amount of practice/reps with a focus to improve help the cognitive aspects - which in turn assist application of the motor-skills (decision making & working efficiently)

[@julianhennig3579]

I think the first question about perfect practice boils down to consistently stay at it and overall improve and basically develop your hobby muscle memory and practice with intention. To improve more effectively it’s important to set yourself specific goals (outside your comfort zone) like “with this model I’m going for NMM” or osl or whatever. At least that would be my summary.

[@Baatosanabe]

What the first part of "practice makes permanent, perfect practice make permanent perfectly" in music, refers to the fact that if you practice something wrong, you are going to learn something wrong. So I think that the first question maybe was asking if there is a way to learn to paint wrong, and what is the way to avoid learning to paint the "wrong way".

[@Benjambles]

I met Poots many years ago at Salute in London, when KD was just the random minis, he was such a nice guy!

[@Winterydee]

Tip for magnets on bases: Use 5 minute 2 part epoxy. Personally I'll do this by lining up all of the bases im doing in rows upsidedown, then take a piece of flat metal rod and attach the magnets to that so they are centered in each base and setting inside of the base they are going to be used on. Lastly mix the 2 part epoxy and pour into the base next to the edge of each magnet. Wait about 10 to 15 minutes and then remove bases from the metal rod.

[@byronhowell2124]

Scott! Watch Andor - its my favorite star wars outside of the original trilogy

[@DeliciousCornbread]

Absolutely agree. So damned good and that speech by Stellan Skarsgard. Oof, amazing.

[@bacawaka2813]

To speed up the drying time for oils you want to use an alkyd medium such as galkyd, or liquin, or you can mix in a radiant oil paint which is a brighter oil paint used for highlights. Abteilung 502 oil paint isn't fast drying. It's just marketing. It is full of oil in comparison to radiant oils and will remain wet on a model for days where the radiant oils will be hard on the dry pallet overnight.

[@cassandracastro2759]

Thanks for the info. I've got one of those last year to try it, and it took like 7-9 days to dry, so I haven't used it since then.

[@bacawaka2813]

@@cassandracastro2759 Yeah I found out the hard way to on a bust. It took a week to dry and it was extremely glossy and still tacky to the touch. Which is a waste since I got many of the sets before I realized there was drying issue. I was under the impression that it takes weeks to dry but actually how much you use it should be a few hours to a day. I started to follow James Wappel and figured out that radiants are the way to go. I have a bunch of artist grade oils now and hardly touch the Abteilung 502. I think the consensus between the many mini oil painters is that the good brands are the pro or artist grade versions of the following brands: Williamsburg, Gamblin, Schmincke and Winsor & Newton. The hobby paints are kind of junk like Scale 75 FLOWW and Abteilung 502. They put too much oil in the paint to create a smooth finish which isnt needed.

[@oleww50]

40:22 put gloss varnish down first then the decal, also micro set and sol : the edges of the transfer can’t be seen. And looks painted on after a matt varnish or Matt medium final coat. 👍

[@JadeCatMinis]

Every paint job is a new experience for me. But mostly because I've only paint a handful of miniatures.

[@RoofusKit]

Jon, sanding the surface of the magnet and the surface of the base tends to help my superglue get extra grip it needs to stick.

[@jc7997aj]

Vincey's so cool his heart beats 5 times a minute. Hes like "stress? Never heard of it."

[@terrencemiltner1005]

Vince doesn't have to worry about stress, stress has to worry about Vince

[@jc7997aj]

@@terrencemiltner1005 he has a Gellar field around him that nullifies stress 😆.

[@markgnepper5636]

Great stuff friend 👏 👍

[@asuranshadow9491]

These days, find myself mainly experimenting on the colors side, but focused more on finishing projects than learning new techniques, and the need for speed.

[@zero-production-value]

I was much like Scott in the way that I had only seen the Star Wars movies and a few of the new series like Mandalorian. But at the beginning of the year some shit went down at work and I got stood down for a month, in that time I consumed all things star wars! The clone wars and rebels animated series are great and make the universe so much more alive. I highly recommend watching them.

[@LordKnaves]

GW is taking one step forward, then 3 steps backwards.

[@58elrond]

the practice makes permanent is my biggest fear, i see people who paint for 10 years and are happy/relaxed with themselves and get approval on social media for their "style", they don't improve their skillset its like they have reached their endgame, and often stop improving,,,,, but at the same time practice is like the most vital thing,,, arghhh

[@brandondollar]

Cobalt Keep has great magnets (even without the bases).

[@lcdrfish8633]

Here because poorhammer gave you a shout out. Don't think I've heard Jon mention this show on his normal vids.

[@OkieDokieCreations]

Scott. Us gearheads need the details on your ride.

[@gregoryhall4062]

Do it. Give into Star Wars Legion. Let the plastic flow into you.

[@starwarsgeekdotnet]

So is this intro related to the new Monument Hobbies commercial?

[@lanesteele240]

Perfect practice makes perfect

[@Tonylamar777]

Not gonna lie, I was just think F these edge highlights but then I seen this episode thanks for the inspiration

[@billdefranza4927]

Scott: seek out and enjoy Tag & Bink were here, and your Star Wars training will be complete. It is your dessstiny ....

[@aroncheek5092]

Oh boy am I in the thick of it , I've been in the process of stripping Nycaloth for a fair few months, I liked my colour combination but with most pre primed d&d ,there was no way I could carry on painting with all the mould lines and crevasses, epoxy putty is coming out once he's fully striped

[@aroncheek5092]

I play tacticus, I've seen competitions for painted miniatures on that

[@User-hp1px]

From football we were told perfect practice makes perfect, which meant if you continually half assed your reps and cut corners, you’d do it in a game. If you do it perfectly 100 times, when you have to do it, you’ll do it as you practiced. Practice creates habits.

[@christopherschlegel6412]

"find a competition that offers feedback" he says as I get multiple conflicting points of feedback between judges

[@evinoshea5215]

I'm working on my first competition piece. My goal - feel like I improved the model each session I work on it, and put in a lot of time (maybe ~100 hours).

[@RichardReads]

Decals were delivered to Sam at DF 😂

[@bacawaka2813]

The issue with complementary colors is that I ran into a blood golem that is all blood red. There is no way I can sneak in green to have the complementary color. I am better off doing a monochrome or a triad scheme with red, yellow, and blue.

[@Tarq242]

I'm always doing something a bit experimental for every mini... it kind of means my warbands/units/etc look a bit inconsistent when you look at them, but really... for 90% you'll not see it. If something really works though I'll integrate it into the rest of the guys.

[@Quazia]

Gochujang is actually pretty easy to make

[@davidhitchcock2495]

Gamer's Grass was not the s4e20 sponsor I was hoping for.

[@GTWellsStudios]

Long time listener. First time poster. Love the show. Always great. But I have to ask, how has no one mentioned the way John says decal?!

[@tedcogley1939]

I use gorilla superglue and then a super glue accelerant .. I glue 1 side then spray accelerent on the magnet then place it down works great for me

[@Ainar86]

I don't paint a lot at all so I kinda have to experiment on every model if I am to progress at all :D

[@MisterGeof]

I hate the saying practice makes perfect... But I exchange it for this real saying: Practice makes progress

[@JT-mg2if]

Always thought Ninjon looked a bit like the "what, what, what?" guy in pulp fiction (Frank Whaley).

[@samlivera4915]

Where's Scott's hoodie from, I really like it.

[@Miniac]

Appreciate that! I bought it at a maker fair in Minneapolis, was a small creator from California, strangely.

[@samlivera4915]

@Miniac Fairs it's nice. Being from the UK not likely to be in Minneapolis or California 😂

[@starwarsgeekdotnet]

I don't know if you can relate practice on a musical instrument like guitar with painting... I'm not sure I've ever "practiced" painting but I've spent hours upon hours of my life practicing on my guitar. If you want to equate every paintjob as "practice" then I guess you can equate that. But I'm not "practicing" every time I pick up my guitar.

[@Quazia]

Episode 4 20 🎉 wen yall cuties gotta do a video where you paint minis stoned out yer gourd

[@aroncheek5092]

I had to strip Nycaloth that came pre primed 😂 is that painter sure he wants to out source someone to prime his mini's

[@paintfrenchy4735]

Will watch this while painting this evening. While watching the title... I have to say .. Wut??! Are they mad?

[@sebastianwei7721]

That movie is from… probably Samurai Fiction 😂

[@komma8203]

Fulgrim is not released yet, i am waiting for that model, i am going to use him a a demon Prince in my 40k chaos army and my aos Slaanesh army

[@TylerProvick]

I would rather attempt a technique on a miniature for my army than waste time "practicing" on a different miniature. I don't agree with his politics, but I'm a big fan of "F&%k It! We're doing it live!" I also don't feel that the amount of mental anguish people suffer making sure they can perfectly match a colour across an entire army, and be able to recreate it when you come back years ago is warranted. I intentionally painted an army where I did random basing, and it's not that noticeable. I paint only with Kimera so every colour is a custom mix and definitely doesn't perfectly match between models. Heck, I've painted an Infinity Tag where each limb was spot-mixed by eye to match the existing paint, and probably doesn't perfectly match, but it's not not really apparent. I've painted, intentionally, a WWII Canadian army where the uniforms were slightly different shades of green because that's how it actually was, and you don't really notice looking at the group. This is why I just try new things as I feel like it on whatever miniature I happen to be painting at the time. It doesn't matter, and I'm only painting X models in my entire life, so I want to have X painted miniatures, not X painted - 200 "practice" miniatures.

[@greglohman6750]

I did wonder why you were like "so I threw my figs in the microwave on high for an hour"

[@juhbellz]

weirdest sunday school ever

[@aaron527]

It’s an actual bible verse, he just altered it to flow better. John getting something wrong? That nevvvvver happens.

[@cassandracastro2759]

To be fair, monochrome isn't monochrome either, so call it however you want hehe.

[@StiffBadger]

"British people don't like criticising GW" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣...you are joking right? It's almost the national sport.

[@Caedus2208]

Like for "real Marines eat crayons"

[@AzaMinis]

You guys have used that intro before D:

[@danielwilliams8183]

Warhammer 40Kobs of elotes

[@kikolokopo_toys]

My girlfriend knows that entire pulp fiction quote because of an ariana grande song

[@johnjulian5029]

Of the gw struggles new areas don't seem to be too much of an issue, but currently they seem so focused on new product, but not supporting their existing product. Almost always out of stock. It has been the worst time in my hobby time to get bits. Ebay feels like buying used cars atm

[@Anarcho420ism]

FOOOOOOOOOOOUR TWWWEEEEENTTTYYYYYYY

[@jason-sp8nb]

That's good then because my paint job is crap 😂😂😂😂😊

[@SleepyGhst]

Kingdom Death, my favorite game i cant fucking play.

[@green_manc]

Youre totally right about gw not utilising just look how peachy relates stories of dumb decisions on the painting phase

[@mikewicked.x]

Yep. But I think their biggest issue with their recent growth is that their supply chain is capping out. They're having so many issues keeping product in stock that it's becoming beyond a joke.

[@green_manc]

@@mikewicked.x i totally agree, problem is that you gotta speculate 18 months in advance how many to make, and the community is such a swing shift of hot and not that its hard to predict accuratelt

[@mikewicked.x]

@@green_manc yeah true, but it doesn't sound like they're investing in the infrastructure they need to fix it. Hopefully we see the change next year.

[@green_manc]

@@mikewicked.x they have this goal to run the whole street in nottingham, so any planned expansion means waiting till those business/warehouses become empty, id guess based on the info ive seen floating around

[@green_manc]

@@mikewicked.x i dont disagree with anything youre saying either.

[@Kelgrim]

You guys completely misinterpreted the practice makes permanent question. What it means is that whatever you practice, will become permanent. Say for instance if you practice the guitar but with a wrong grip or you do an exercise with poor form, you’ll keep doing that because it becomes ingrained. In this hobby for instance it could be that you keep painting with paint that is too thick and you never get corrected, you’ll never get past that hurdle or you hold the brush wrong (Vincy V style) it might reduce your skill ceiling due to poorer brush control. Whereas Perfect Practice makes Perfect, means that you get the technical stuff correct and then practice using that to achieve the closest we can to perfection. It is something I try to teach daily as a trainer.