How Cities: Skylines Makes You Plan Bad Cities

[@NotJustBikes]

Yes! This is the best C:S video I've ever seen. These are all the things I've complained about in the game, plus things I hadn't even thought of. I was amazed when I heard that C:S was designed by European because it encourages building very "American" cities, and every city I've built devolves into a (car) traffic management sim. You can't even build mixed-use walkable neighbourhoods (as you said). I stopped playing the game because I could never design "good" cities. People may say that it's just a game, but it's gone way beyond a game and it directly effects how laymen, who know nothing about urban planning, think about cities. That being said, if somebody makes the game you're suggesting, I hope there's still a "disable NIMBYs" checkbox. Because sometimes I'm going to want to just play the game without getting flashbacks to every painful community engagement meeting I've attended. 😂

[@PjXu98]

Just came to this video because of you😂 Love your channel btw

[@feyindecay912]

I litterally thought about all the stuff your channel has taught me throughout the video, you're doing a great job, alright!

[@jonarific8504]

I genuinely think the best thing they could do to reflect actual cities (and let's face it the whole game is God complex wish fulfilment so options o ln implementation benefit the player) would be to facilitate walkable neighbourhoods with mixed use zoning, pedestrianisation and values (I.e. the games measure of success) based on this with commercial demand reflecting footfall.

[@groundzero_-lm4md]

The developers are European but wanted to make a game more similar to SimCity. Remember Paradox only greenlit the project after SimCity 2013 failed. They wanted something that would be familiar to SimCity players.

[@PresCities]

*sits through 8 angry monologues in a row about “neighborhood character” in a video game*

[@Gingerxyz1]

As a European, lack of middle density and mixed use zoning are absolutely the things that frustrate me the most in the game. I want to build terraced housing and flats over local shops and city centres full of buildings with ground floor commercial units and five storeys of apartments on top. I want to build the world I know (but better!)

[@butterboi1503]

Ikrrr I really want to build small American towns with mixed-zone downtowns. Would definitely make the use of space much more efficient.

[@ekszentrik]

As a fellow Euro, it doesn't bother me because I re-adjusted my expectations of the game after the first play session I had that this is a McCity builder, and I would appreciate my cities only as the American McCities they were intended to be.

[@andrewjackson8845]

The car-focused nature of the cities in this game, as mentioned in the video, really bugs me as well as someone from the UK. Having those absurd interchanges in the middle of a city just seems absurd to me, as does all of those lanes.

[@jacksondice5435]

LAUGHS IN *BACKYARD* But no i agree diversity in building design

[@liesdamnlies3372]

I live in Canada, in one of the few nice places where we have mixed-use zoning and I couldn’t agree more. (Vancouver is even, finally, clawing it’s way back to sanity with its planning. Stroads and parking are disgusting blights to be excised.)

[@edwardmiessner6502]

The most humorous thing about Cities: Skylines is when a cim steps up out of the subway station (the metro entrances, stations, and vanilla trains are totally unrealistic imo) and realises, "I have a car in me pocket!" Then all of a sudden a car appears and off he goes, another piece of the traffic.

[@AY-hq4qz]

Yes I can buy the foldable backpack bicycle which apparently sold tremendously well in the C:S universe, but the car out of the pocket is where my imagination comes up short. 🤣

[@FreeSalesTips]

You don't even have a pocket car? What year are you living in, 2021? It's already 2132, pocket cars have been a thing for 80 years. 🚗☁☁

[@edwardmiessner6502]

@@FreeSalesTips 😁

[@oldvlognewtricks]

I miss Park and Ride from SC4

[@GordonSlamsay]

When you see like 1000 cims exit the metro and then click on the station to see 250 passangers/week

[@mimimurlough]

So essentially, Skylines is a modernist planning simulator, which is kinda funny. Shows just how much the field has evolved in the past 60+ years. I would like to see it updated for modern, more complex and collaborative planning, if only to give players something to do once all the mile stones have been passed and traffic is doing okay

[@ripred42]

If there's a cities skylines 2, one thing i would love is maps that start out with just rail connections, or dirt roads, and a few small settlements. I think that would be more realistic than creating an entirely new historical mode.

[@Zzrott1]

This tbh

[@Bigcountry4415]

Ya chapter 1 was kind of unrealistic since in my mind that is a different game (not that I wouldn’t want to play that game but I don’t think it’s very feasible). The rest of it seems great. New thought maybe you could add a mode where you can ask the government for money if your in enough debt (that is the only way North American cities including Canadian cities can exist).

[@Bigcountry4415]

I don’t know about Mexico’s cities.

[@makalejdo2]

thats why i always choose an island map with just one highway onto it. then i try to force myself into simulation of the organic/historical way of urban/rural development: 1st: destroying the highway, leaving it just at the end of the map 2nd: creating a small village with all the basic infrastructure (electricity, water, health...) 3rd: slowly expanding farms throughout the entire map 4th: slowly expanding the first village into a small rural town 5th: creating new villages throughout the map 6th: manually leveling buildings - destroying smaller houses to make room for bigger appartment buildings 7th: building new avenues and highways where they are actually needed my friends think im crazy because it takes ages to create something big...for instance it takes really really long to build your first skyscraper... i started a new city 3 weeks ago. im still at 2k population and barely made the first elementary school however there are two very positive points in this type of creating the city: 1st: the city or the map always looks finished (especially when the farms are done), anything else you build is just "extra" 2nd: when you have an entire map covered with something (villages, towns, farms) traffic management really gets challenging. it makes you think how to solve it and what is actually worth destroying not sure if OP was talking about this but one thing that really annoys me in this game is the price of building roads, especially highways, which in reality are very expensive

[@leshiimorph7933]

I'd want maps that start with just harbors too

[@deViant14]

Whatever you might think of these critiques, for sure the lack of historical, organic growth makes it hard to start cities, at least for me. I seek out really mountainous terrain instead to put some creative constraints and help me break the grid. I need to have a reason, an explanation for why my main roads go the way they do. Without the imperfections of terrain, I don't even know how I want to start. So then I don't play.

[@gadsdenflag5218]

For real, if the city had actual history it would be so much better. Like, starting your city in the 19th century America. A small town evolving into a massive city naturally and historically would be so much better

[@seriphyn8935]

Making me think if people made use of the scenario feature on the workshop. People could make historical cities using the European vanilla set then you start with that.

[@justanotheryoutubechannel]

@@gadsdenflag5218 Honestly that’s something I’ve always wanted from a city builder, but so far the closest I’ve found is starting Tropico 5 in the colonial era and progressing through the eras from there. SC2K came close to having this as some releases had multiple tile sets for eras, but no game has done it as well as Tropico 5 and no game has done it as well as I want.

[@Watchmanskey]

@@justanotheryoutubechannel Exactly. A Civilization style city building game. Start from the ancient era all the way to the modern age. On every architectural advancement, you should be making a choice on whether to demolish the old buildings and replacing them with new ones, or maintain it to get a historic value bonus. By the end of the game you would end up witha modern city filled with a time-spanning history. The only way to do this in the current game is by progressively adding more futuristic modded buildings

[@magscorner]

@@justanotheryoutubechannel don't remember the right name of it but one of the simcities for the DS makes you develop cities tru time

[@johngaudet7363]

The lack of medium density zoning has always struck me as an odd choice, since it was always a thing in the SimCity games so it's strange the devs would omit it

[@geryhabul8923]

Aren’t the low level high density buildings medium density tho?

[@johngaudet7363]

@@geryhabul8923 technically yes but I would still prefer the option to zone only med density if i wanted to

[@clnetrooper]

@@johngaudet7363 you can set a high density zone and ban high raise. It'll keep to those smaller medium density buildings. Or go full mods with plop the growables and place yourself those buildings.

[@johngaudet7363]

@@clnetrooper It's more complicated than it needs to be imo. Because then you have to make sure the districts are drawn correctly and that the right policies are enacted

[@ChemySh]

@@johngaudet7363 not to the extent you may be thinking. I usually just enact a blanket highrise ban for the whole city, and plop the highrises myself since there's not many of them if you're going for a realistic skyline. I do agree that this could be easier if building plopper is in the base game instead of a mod

[@caio5987]

😂 can you imagine?: “I want to build a road here… oh what? The game won’t let me?”

[@CityPlannerPlays]

Excellent video! That said, I have mixed emotions about the message. At the most basic level, it's a game, so it needs to have systems and mechanics that are easy to grasp and fun to play. That's why I like Stardew Valley, for instance - it has easy to understand mechanics but it obviously isn't a representation of what it takes to actually start a farm. Most of what urban planners do wouldn't be fun to most people and the level of detail in designing a city is infinite. I think the quote from the SimCity designer sums it up well. On the other hand, there are significant issues with some of the omissions in the game - ped streets and transit streets DO exist and are wonderful. Vertical mixed use is present in nearly every community - regardless of size, and is missing from the game. And you're right - horizontal mixed us is penalized (though it's arguable if this is a problem or not - there is some truth to the nuisance some commercial uses can have). Parking is omnipresent, expensive, and with current planning practice, absolutely necessary to consider. Safety drives so many transportation network decisions. And I could go on. All of that said, Cities Skylines causes players to think about their environments - something so many people don't do. They think about their home, their job, where their friends are, where they shop... and don't consider the impacts of their individual choices on the collective. And it get's people interested in planning, which is my main reason for loving the game. While I agree that many of the suggestions you make would make the game stronger as a simulator, I would hope that any of these advanced options would be just that - options. Not everyone wants a hardcore real-life simulator and I'm not sure that it would be fun to 95% of players. Wouldn't want the game to become a job, you know?

[@davidsdesign543]

You might have mixed emotions, but you are subscribing to Pres' theory with your content. Even you have to play pretend with Clearwater County. It's just fantasy roleplaying at this point - you're trying to tell a story, but there is no game mechanic that supports how you and others (Pres, Lee, Two Dollars Twenty, etc.) are playing the game in the only meaningful way possible this long after it's release. I'm only saying that because you're contradicting yourself here to your own detriment and as a Patreon supporter I clearly admire your content. So make it an additional game mode, as Pres starts out with. No obligations: One game, two massively different ways of playing it (think CS meets Transport Fever 2). The CS story mode is notoriously lacking and that could fix it. Could theoretically even be DLC, doesn't have to be C:S 2. The current game-engine should be able handle a 'historical mode' with a few mods and tweaks. "Not everyone wants a hardcore real-life simulator and I'm not sure that it would be fun to 95% of players" If that were true you wouldn't have experienced the (more than deserved) spectacular growth and success that you have over that past year. You, Lee, Pres and others fill a void in the game with your roleplaying builds that is clearly broadly shared within the community.

[@safe-keeper1042]

Yeah, I'm not on board with *all* the proposed features, but I do really agree with the general idea. CS2 needs to get out of the North American city planning philosophy. My theory is that CO saw that Sim City ruled the roost and didn't dare depart too heavily from their approach. So they made their own take on a North American-style city builder, instead of going their own way. Now that they've made a name for themselves and are being published by PDX, I hope they dare go their own way.

[@deathdealer312]

@@davidsdesign543 "Not everyone wants a hardcore real-life simulator and I'm not sure that it would be fun to 95% of players" If that were true you wouldn't have experienced the (more than deserved) spectacular growth and success that you have over that past year." Come on, you really think everyone who plays this game wants to be forced into something that detailed and difficult? You think they want to be forced to consider political consequences and difficulties of building cities in real life, just because people watch youtube channels? Speak for yourself only please.

[@davidsdesign543]

​@@deathdealer312 That's really misconstruing what I was saying. I'm not saying 'everyone' nor 'forced' anywhere in my argument. I am saying 'additional' and 'no obligations'

[@deathdealer312]

@@davidsdesign543 You talked past my point, man

[@ignemuton5500]

the point about cities with no history is something i constantly felt without realizing, sure the game was fun but every time i reached a certain city size it felt super boring, there was no context to these cities, and sure i could make up my own lore and history but that required too much time for any single person, so you end up just not playing it because there is no real connection, it's unlike a real city where almost every square meter of land has some sort of history to one person or another.

[@Watchmanskey]

To add a sense of history I just download progressively more futuristic buildings from the workshop. Starting from vanilla into sustainable smart cities (or a corporate cyberpunk dystopia, if I like) into adding giant arcologies and habitats complete with flying cars etc.

[@tobydissel]

One thing about the lack of parking: in cities skylines the scales of population are way off. An 15 story would normally take in hundreds of workers/visitors, while in the game maybe 20 people go to a dense place. Therefore in the game not a lot of parking is required. So if parking has to be "fixed", population scale should too. Great video pres!

[@walmartian]

right, 10k ppl looks like a 1/2 a million city

[@avert_bs]

So that's why it takes almost an entire map to reach 300 000 citizens

[@carstarsarstenstesenn]

yeah I can't play the game without the realistic population mod

[@krabgrass]

That’s why I like using the RICO mod to edit the number of households & manually plop middle class houses.

[@cakeisyummy5755]

Or you could just bring in Temporary Workers from Eastern Europe, India, Bangladesh, or Pakistan.

[@devononair]

For point one, I suggest having a mode where you take over a historical city (real or fictional) and have historical monuments and neighbourhoods that you can't or shouldn't destroy. I feel that would really get round the 'placeless cities' problem.

[@AlexGoldhill]

I would love to have a scenario where you play in a city in the aftetmath of a revolution or massive political upheaval where you have to deal with repairing the damage and addressing the impact and legacy of the decades of the pre-revolutionary city government's misrule, whilst weathering the upheavals and challenges that your new government faces.

[@rzingg209]

That would be cool.. I like to make historical maps of real places.. I'll take a topographic map of, say Oakland CA, from some random year (usually pre 1960) and make it to scale and go from there.. I really enjoy making historical maps

[@danielbishop1863]

I know that SimCity 3000 included some historical scenarios like that. For example, Berlin 1989, where the goals included tearing down the wall, reconnecting the transit lines that were severed by it, and replacing the East's heavily-polluting coal power plants with something cleaner.

[@BiffaPlaysCitiesSkylines]

Walkability video challenge....accepted?!? Some great points made, enjoyed the video a lot. Just getting more into the actual details of city planning myself, its a learning curve for sure but very interesting 😁👍

[@PresCities]

Do it!! If anyone could pull off a walkability challenge, it would be you!

[@3dmaster205]

Add proper bicycle infrastructure, and traffic safety and calming to build a fantastically working city... and hey, make it the next season of 5b1c, invite Pres over as well... look in the City Planner Plays started thread.

[@colonelcampbellsoup6318]

Was going to say something along the lines of "oh biffa would make a video with that kind of title"

[@moxxy3565]

Biffa! Love your work

[@Dudezonid]

Please make a walkable challange! I love to play the game with walkability in focus. I makes it a whole different game with different challanges

[@royvandermarel3953]

While I agree with half the issues you've adressed, I do feel that there needs to be significant distance from reality to keep the game fun. I'm glad I don't need to do the debrief and paperwork after a mission in Call of Duty. Or deal with environmentalists when chopping down forrests is Age of Empires. Or have to watch replays of my tactical choices after each game in FIFA

[@pushingboundariesyt]

Sums it up perfectly! All I need to make the game perfect is mixed use zoning and medium density.

[@royvandermarel3953]

@@pushingboundariesyt Two great additions, if implemented. And I would add 5x5 and up for industry plots (especially farming) to that list

[@TheofficialDropthatbeat]

He's gotta make a longer video somehow so might as well preach about stuff that makes the game not realistic

[@alejandrocambraherrera8242]

You are (or were, two years ago lol) talking about chores, but the video is not about chores: it is about depth. The thing is what we understand as the videogame themes and what we understand as unnecessary extras, which of course is coloured by how we see the real referents of these themes. If you are from a European city, for example, maybe it is the limited-access freeway systems that seem secondary to you.

[@maiihew3808]

As someone about to begin a career in city planning and has over 700 hours on city skylines, this was what I yearned for in the game and drove me to use as many mods my pc could handle. The concept and creation of the game is wondereful and the best city builder we have, but I agree with you that there is no real realism in the game.

[@jamesbedford7327]

Im in a very similar boat. I have close to 6000 hours in the game and I'm just starting a urban planning degree

[@ashleyhamman]

Same, I graduated with my bachelors in Geography with a focus on urban planning this spring, and for a few years now have found Cities Skylines borderline unplayable both because of the insane numbers of mods and because I've been unable to build cities that I consider to be "correct". Other citybuilders set in modern times have pretty much all of the same issues. It's rather strange to say that Workers and Resources: Soviet Republic, a country tycoon more than anything, seems to capture aspects of realistic urban planning better than games focused solely on the cities, despite having its own meriod of problems and focus differences.

[@editoron]

Same.

[@firstnamelastname7003]

@Maiihew What mods did you use to simulate this stuff, out of interest?

[@carstarsarstenstesenn]

@@firstnamelastname7003 Network extensions 2 provides zonable pedestrian streets--I recommend it for sure. Realistic population mod makes the city feel more realistic in some ways.

[@Gamesational1]

I agree with all of the points presented in the video. City Skylines does not pay attention to the walkability of cities. It does not pay attention to parking within those cities and disregards the politics of demolishing neighborhoods and displacing people. Many improvements are required in order for this simulation to be remotely realistic.

[@alehaim]

You forgot one very important thing, the amount of households/workplaces that buildings hold, which also plays a part in making car centric design seem like a good idea. The fact that suburban houses can have 5 households when they in real life hold one, while high rise buildings holding only 20-30 households when in reality they could hold hundreds is just ridiculous. Most especially this is a problem due to being an integral part to the milestone part with growing population. It really makes a disservice to just how much space is actually required for suburbs to have so few people. The difference is really stark when using the realistic population mod, as suburbs of low density housing become extremely empty, while high rise housing in high density area holds thousands upon thousands of people in a few blocks, compared to how it would take several neighborhoods of suburbs. Also realistic traffic cycle theoughout the day, due to the fact that the base game just doesn't simulate the difference of traffic over the day that well.

[@flyingpiggie979]

The suburb houses hold several households because the game is way off in scale. If it were scaled properly, the best you could realistically build would be a large town. You’d need maps several orders of magnitude larger to come anywhere close to the status of a moderate city. Let alone the likes of London, New York and so on.

[@Orinslayer]

@@flyingpiggie979 Exactly. the map is only like 17 kilometers across. I'd need about 49 times more land area to even fit Phoenix and its suburbs into the map in real scale.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

@@Orinslayer 17? I thought it was only 9 km across, about the size of a standard American township 6 miles, squared. You could fit Paris proper in it but not the suburbs

[@Orinslayer]

@@edwardmiessner6502 nonono, its 9 tiles across, but 17km across.

[@AY-hq4qz]

So if it’s that much out of scale do you guys even use the realistic population mod? I’ve always thought about turning it on, but never really knew how it would turn out.

[@furrydreamer4443]

I unironically play Cities Skylines as a corporate town dystopia sort of game. The player represents a ruling power, people in the city are rightsless workers who's happyness is considered as a metric to be factored to encourage growth and profit, ultimately without any say in regards to their community or municipality because the entirety of the city is in fact private property. If you live in the city, the city owns you. Your only means of 'voting' is moving out, which is also your only recourse during 'urban renewal', and is only effective if it happens en-masse without sufficient replacements shipping themselves in. The people voice their concerns through chirpr, which is only regarded at 'head office's' whim and leisure. With all that being said, I think a cool addition would be a 'riot' disaster type, and have riots triggered by a variety of things. Players going a police state direction can up their police budgets and coverage, players going a more political route can focus on appeasements or taking care not to trigger it.

[@artyoz]

Some of the problems might be right there in the name of the genre: "City Builder," rather than "City Manager." The actual joy of making your dream city is basically already doable with mods, and if there is to be a Cities: Skylines 2, I'd love to see it embrace the sandbox/Lego set side of things and embrace the "builder." I think you'd need almost a completely different game for a good "city manager," or an actual "mayor simulator." Both could make for very good games, but trying to mash these two, often-conflicting game design goals into a single game is, you're right, an increasingly-noticeable problem with Cities: Skylines. On the other hand, at least it ain't SimCity. I swear that game was designed for real estate scammers.

[@144teebone]

I think that your comment captures the essence of the issue perfectly. Almost 7 years on now, a lot of people forget that many of the design decisions that Colossal Order made for Cities Skylines were seemingly direct responses to criticisms and frustrations that people had for SimCity 2013. That game was a massive let down to just about everyone who played it; to the point where for a while it seemed like the city-building genre was just going to die, but then along came Cities Skylines, directly addressing just about every major criticism that SimCity had. Where SimCity restricted city sizes, Cities offered 9-times larger play areas (81-times with mods). Where SimCity was always online (even if playing alone) Cities was a purely single player experience (with no DRM). Mods themselves were discarded by SimCity, but Cities baked them directly into the UI and UX of the game. SimCity had few (if any) meaningful transit options, but Cities had many options in the base game, added more in expansions, and based a lot of the simulation around how these transit networks all interacted with each other (helped in part by Colossal Order's experience with Cities In Motion). The list goes on. In Cities Skylines, emphasis was put on player expression. The game did everything it could to allow players to build exactly the kinds of cities that they wanted, unhindered. It was a building game first, and a management game second. It's more like a toy than a game with no real win-state; a creative outlet that happens to have some simulation systems to flesh out the world that you create. And for a while this was very successful! Many of the great Cities Let's Plays are just long form art projects where the player is creating the exact kind of city that they envision whether its a perpetually burning version of Miami, a loving tribute to Western Australia, an idealized trans-European metropolis, a 1:1 re-creation of Osaka Japan, an oppressive cyberpunk hellscape, a martian colony, or just a remake of one's own hometown. The focus was always on creation more than simulation, and the result was the most successful city-building game of all time. That's not to say that a potential sequel shouldn't improve its simulation, but I do think it's important to recognize that the reason this game exploded in the way that it did is because it never forced players to get bogged down by systems that would impede your ability to craft the city that you want (often with help from mods).

[@artyoz]

@@144teebone Yeah I think there's really something to the fact that C:S doesn't go to any trouble at all to hide the "infinite money" option, and they don't even call it a cheat, it's just a pre-loaded mod. For that matter, I don't know for sure if CO/Paradox went out of their way to make the game easily moddable, but they sure didn't put up any barriers to it. But as far as the funding thing goes, it's so nice to be able to see that as more of a "metric" than any kind of limitation. Again, lookin' at you, SimCity 2013. I've often thought of Skylines as a toy, like you said, like the world's greatest Lego set. When you're playing it as a game, it's so easy to make the "win conditions" things that are set by the player, even if the game does kinda nudge you towards outward expansion. Sometimes I'll sit down to a project with the express intent of "I'm gonna make the nicest metro loop I can," or "I'm gonna imagine what a modern-day streetcar suburb might look like," or something like that. The simulation is necessary to make those kinds of things "work," and maybe the conversation should be about optimizing the simulation for "play" rather than optimizing it for "goals." And to Pres' point about the game being a good intro to urbanism and related topics, like a lot of good "toys" much of the play is self-educational. And, obviously, when you "play in public" it's socially educational, too. And yet, I still *do* desire a really management-focused city game. Something I've been thinking about: SimCity and Skylines tell you that you're playing as the "mayor," and Pres already ripped that metaphor to shreds, but I think the thing is you're actually "playing as the city." You're pretending to be the city planner, city council, neighborhood groups, universities, local industry, and all these other things, all at the same time. Whereas I can't really think of a game that exists where you're actually playing as a mayor. Just for the fun of it (full disclosure, I'm a tabletop game designer but not a video game designer or programmer, so a lot of what follows is going to be pie-in-the-sky spitballing with NO IDEA as to implementation) here's an idea: a TURN-BASED city management game. You're managing the city from, let's say, month to month. One month you approve plans for a freeway (to use an example brought up in the video) which will take, let's say, nine months to complete (even that feels pretty optimistic, but for the sake of having some numbers). In any event, there's no "plopping," freeways, water treatment plants, sports stadiums, whatever, there is only "planning." The "problem" is, around Month Three you start hearing protests from the community you're building the freeway through/near, and they're threatening to block further construction. Now, you can push construction through, but you're gambling on the community backing down, and maybe they do but maybe they don't... you'll just have to hit the "end turn" button and see what Month Four brings. Or, cancel the freeway, and see what happens then (industry gets mad, inevitably). The point is, make the player have to think months in advance, make plans that might or might not come to fruition, adapt to unforseen disasters, and always live under the possibility that if they push the envelope too far, well... elections are a thing. That game sounds stressful and exhausting and downright anxiety-inducing. That game also sounds a lot like XCOM. And that wasn't exactly a flop. I dunno, like I said, spitballing ideas. I don't know if Pres is right in that Skylines needs to be more of a city management game, but I think he's identified an unfulfilled niche in video games, that only LOOKED like it had been filled by SimCity and Cities Skylines. I'd love to play both games, depending on how I'm feeling on any particular day. Some days I might want to seriously dig into urban politics and city management. Some days, I might just wanna chill and make my dream streetcar suburb. There should be room in video games for both. Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED Talk

[@3dmaster205]

@@144teebone More simulation while keeping simple could easily be implemented with difficulty settings. Standard is Cities Skylines, and then higher levels of difficulty more and more simulation and agent AI features get turned on; much better than now; exact same game, no more difficulty, everything just costs more and you get less.

[@Latriise]

@@144teebone You make some great points. And I'm glad CS came along and kept the city game genre from dying. However, I wish that both franchises were still thriving. And I wish a new SimCity game would come out. There was a fun and whimsy to SC that doesn't fit with the more realistic style of CS. For example, in SC 2013, my sims once asked for permission to throw a city wide block party. And if I accepted the challenge, and my city services were good enough to keep the city from being overrun with the extra trash during a set time limit, I could make a nice chunk of bonus money. It was fun to randomly challenge my city in that way. Like a nice mini game. Another time, there was a zombie outbreak. And I could visually see glowing green zombies come out at night and roam through certain neighborhoods. The only major downfall, for me, of SC 2013 was/is the map size. If they could have doubled the current size of the city squares I think the game would've been a hit with players. But even without that, I still find it fun to play. To me, CS and SC are different styles. CS is a city builder, where the goal is mostly aesthetic. While SC 2013 focuses a bit more on being a city simulator. I think there's room for both approaches. Which is why I wish a new SC would be released.

[@144teebone]

@@Latriise I actually 100% agree with you Latriise. I know my comment came off as harsh, but SimCity was one of my favorite series in gaming. You can't be disappointed unless you're expecting something good... As you said, it had a specific charm that is very difficult to replicate. All of Maxis' games had this great "game-feel"; their secret sauce that made everything a joy to play. And there were certainly things in SimCity 2013 that were enjoyable. I personally loved the system that allowed you to build extensions to city buildings. Being able to add new wings to hospitals, new floors to schools, etc. added a wonderful sense of personalization to the assets. It was possible to have dozens of the same building, and all of them look and even function differently based on how/where you placed their extensions. And also as you said, there were good parts of the (rather broken) simulation that they were doing. The zombie apocalypse disaster is, in my opinion, one of the coolest events ever in a city-builder. Seeing your citizens turning into green blobs, flooding your streets, and watching the emergency services trying to respond was an inspired gaming moment that I haven't seen repeated since. I honestly miss SimCity (and Maxis) terribly. Even though it was frustrating dealing with EA's broken servers, I still had well over 100 hours played on that game, and I bought the Cities of Tomorrow Expansion as well. I absolutely hear what you're saying. My comment wasn't meant to say that a more simulation focused game is worse, or even that I didn't want it added, just that C:S has defined its place in the genre by removing all of the shackles that SimCity 2013 arbitrarily added. It was catering to particular audience that had specific desires for the next big city builder, namely, freedom to create a large complex city in a 3D space, which was frustratingly difficult to find until Colossal Order arrived on the scene. Arguably, C:S is a like a successor to SimCity 4, the last great SimCity game, which also thrived as a creative outlet for well over a decade thanks in large part to its huge passionate modding community on Simtropolis that kept the game alive and relevant well past its shelf life. I wouldn't say that the simulation in that game was particularly robust, but there was a lot of that Maxis charm which made "painting" or "sculpting" your dream city nonetheless very enjoyable. I think that's the hole that SimCity 2013 left and which C:S was trying to fill. Honestly though, if as you said, SimCity could make a comeback, and compete with this new standard, adding its own (hopefully better) ideas into the mix, I think that would be great! I love this genre, and I want to see it get better. I just hope that a potential sequel to C:S doesn't alienate the player base in the same way that SimCity 2013 did to the fans of SimCity.

[@Baleur]

The problem is that you dont recognize that your idea about community / neighbourhood advocacy groups, will in the end, if implemented in a game, just be distilled down to the core FEELING of playing a game where the game randomly opposes what you're trying to do. It wont feel like "real people" having their say, because its a game, none of them are real people, and we will NEVER feel true empathy with npc's in a game. Unless its an extremely up-close story focused game, which a city builder can never be (in order to ALSO be good at the macro stuff). It will only feel as if a random number generator decides to ruin your plans for no reason. Want to build a new highway that is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL to preventing the city's industrial area from suffocating and thus collapsing the ENTIRE city in the long run? Sorry, randomly generated dice roll decided that this neighbourhood rolled a Green Party who opposes it, and their votes won by 62% to stop the project, again by a random dice roll. Why random dice roll, because its a game, it HAS TO BE.. There are no real people making informed decisions, it HAS to be a random dice roll at some level of abstraction, even if weighted by circumstances. Real people DONT make logical decisions, real people prevent GOOD projects because they dont understand the long term benefits. So in the actual game, you would only feel like the random dice roll abstraction ruins everything you want to do, and need to do. It will NOT be fun, not engaging, not feel realistic. In a game, the player has to have the most authority, otherwise there's no game to play. You'll end up watching a hundred different dice rolls make the decisions for you. Realistic in a democratic society? Yes. Good for a game? No. Because the player is ONE PERSON, we are not an entire senate.

[@flyingpiggie979]

Difficult to translate such complex political and social dilemmas into a game like this. Because at best you’d simply be faced with a financial cost, maybe decline in population. This is a passing inconvenience for players who don’t care, and an underwhelming pop up for those that do. Maybe it could work, but the idea will be forever mired by the reality that you as the player, are basically God. The feelings and lives of the simulated citizens are intangibles imo. That said, the simulation still has miles of room for improvement.

[@michgeeson278]

Just imagine a city builder that wont let you build a city because it would turn a small town into a city.... no? or is this just to provoke the argument that everyone wants the city to have an airport so they can go on holiday, but no one wants to live under the flight path...

[@ildesu789]

I absolutely want more walkability. Wider sidewalks, fully pedestrianized streets and maps that start with train and regional bus access. Aldo due to the way traffic works, bike roads are really effective, cims love them if you make an integrated system of bike lanes and bike roads.

[@StarcrossTV]

All of those points except the transit start all exist in the game now! CS has grown a lot over the past year and has introduced a lot of new features and QOL improvements as development for CS1 winds down

[@storytellerdavis]

It's a model builder, not a real life city builder. This is like complaining that my uncle can build his train set however he wants, instead of having to let his wife vote on new stops. It's also nice having a place that isn't slapping me in the face with "real life" issues for a bit now and then. I get reminded of auto accidents from billboards on the highway. I don't need it in a game I'm using to relax. If I want tense political city building that fills me with dread, I'll go play Frostpunk.

[@sharpless]

While I certainly agree with the problems you bring up, I'm thinking that there is a fine line between making the game more realistic, and making it too complex and intricate for most to enjoy.

[@gfasterOS]

It is perfectly doable to introduce players to more advanced mechanics over time. You’re not going to have major advocacy groups in a tiny town.

[@liquidlethe]

Game Devs solved this a long time ago: Choose Difficulty! >Easy >Normal >Hard >Realistic

[@gfasterOS]

@@liquidlethe Difficulty selection at the start of games is endlessly flawed, but having ways to turn on and off mechanics could absolutely be valuable

[@liquidlethe]

@@gfasterOS I was just pointing out that there a definitely solutions to the problem and no need for worry. Having a customize button for each gamemode where you can turn off and on specific mechanics for a new game is nothing crazy. Something like this would work well Gamemodes: >Standard City Builder -(customize) >Historical mode >Free build

[@minxhozx5113]

I think there are ideas like he suggested being proposed so its either its hard to code so it needs a long time to blend such mechanics to game or its just not their priority orrr they are releasing it for 2.

[@bonumonu5534]

The more I play this game the more I realise how "American" the way its been developed. with literally the same infrastructural problems that US has. same mindset(

[@matthiasmay1977]

It has so many modes of transportation and is actually derived from Cities in Motion a transit planning game. You can build an European or Asian style city even in vanilla.

[@midgetwars1]

Finnish company too. Odd

[@bly4t]

@@matthiasmay1977 its easy to create and asian city tho

[@Liggliluff]

@@midgetwars1 That's what confuses me. While it is European road signs, the whole planning style feels so American. You can build curved roads and such, but the zoning requires straight roads. - While European cities tend to be more compact than American cities with curved roads; the game requires you to build straight roads like American cities to make it more compact. It's backwards.

[@alienngl]

@@Liggliluff How are building straight roads backwards, like seriously, they are easier to build on and are more efficient. I'm not saying they should be everywhere but don't antagonize straight roads Makes no sense at all

[@Kleavers]

I'm sorry but that displacement thing is just not something this game is. It's like wanting The Sims to deal with cancer or other major health problems, psychological/anxiety issues, trauma, unemployment, famine, pandemics etc. If they were to include that stuff I'd be the first to turn off those features or just not play at all. The game is fun because it allows you to be free in how you want your city to look and run. However, more walkability options is definitely required. It's silly how people just have a car in their back pocket, and it is difficult to make proper European cities.

[@firstnamelastname7003]

That's just like, your opinion, man. The game has adjacent features such as worker education, building abandonment, pollution. Plus the game's spiritual predecessors had things like environmental protests. Why would homelessness be so different and unsuited to this game?

[@euricoaw1535]

as simple as citizen limit of 67.500

[@ColtsMan2005]

@@firstnamelastname7003 because its an opinion doesent mean it should be discounted wtf

[@firstnamelastname7003]

@@ColtsMan2005 it's a Big Lebowski reference. Also, that's why I respected their opinion by laying out my argument against it rather than dismissing it.

[@akorn9943]

I mean, that’s kind of the point he’s making, no? That the game is fun but it encourages you to accept practices that are absolutely terrible in real world city planning. It definitely gave me a lot to think about.

[@ColorfulHalo]

You're making some very good points. I always wondered how it could be that a commercial block could send cims to the hospital because of the noise but streets have no significant impact at all.

[@safe-keeper1042]

Oh, and I love that mod that gives you an actual day-night cycle, with most cims sleeping at night, rush hour in the morning and evening, and events around town sometimes like concerts and football games. Just makes the town you're building feel so much more alive and immersing.

[@BluePieNinjaTV]

Love that mod, just wished it extended to public transport too. I'm sick of losing money during the night solely because the evening rush hour is at the same time the night network gets turned off or there is no people using it at lunch time.

[@CultOfAlan]

The strange thing about points 1 & 2 is that tropico actually does a really good job of tackling these things.

[@raheem201231]

They do but don’t. Tropico falls at being a city builder

[@Dave_Albright]

@@raheem201231 Tropico isn't a city builder and never was and never will. And I'm a Tropico Fanboy

[@MaticTheProto]

@@raheem201231 long live el presidente! To the guillotine with you!

[@spartan117zm]

I think the issue is, so many players want this game to be so many things. You want it to be super realistic and tackle hard political issues, meanwhile I want it to exist almost as a 3D model maker for an ideal city, or to show off how a project in the real world might look. I don’t think these things are incompatible, but I think you’d need a lot of toggle switches built into the game. For example when I’m trying to build a model of something I’d like to see, I don’t want to deal with a neighborhood that “resists demolition.” So there should be a toggle switch for that, or perhaps a different overall mode within the game. Like having the sandbox mode stay what it is, but then making an almost “campaign” mode that goes through history starting from old times to new times, with a more political simulation and such. Also, I think you’re taking this a little too seriously. I appreciate your opinion on it, and it’s interesting to hear this take, but please do remember the context around the time and place of this game’s release: SimCity was failing, and these devs wanted to take a shot at making something fun. They never imagined it would get this much interest. Do I think they should take some of these things into consideration for their next game? Sure, why not. But again, I think it must be in a clearly distinguished, wholly separate mode, because this level of stuff would kill the game for likely 75% of players. It wasn’t designed to be an urban planning simulator, and I would argue most players wouldn’t want it to be. But I think it can exist as a psuedo-version of one, just, as a stand-alone mode. What’s more, I appreciate this game for the blank canvas that it is, the ability to let your creativity run wild with whatever you want to build, and I think it serves a great purpose as a creative outlet. If you’re growing tired of it from that perspective, perhaps you should try some other games for awhile and come back to Cities later; there are certainly games which account for some of what you’re looking for, because they were built with it in mind from the beginning. Not every game needs to cover everything, and I think if the devs choose to keep Cities as a sandbox, then that’s their choice, and we should respect it. Certainly there are other groups of devs who would fill the gap.

[@AY-hq4qz]

I feel like the Trópico series is the game to go to if you wake up feeling this way one day about C:S. And I do occasionally! That game is all about focusing on the cims.

[@RuukuLada]

Ideal cities don't feature cars to the extent in C:S

[@nonec384]

i wouldn't want a politicts focus game , thats just too complex so it either a pain to undertand the basic or realy simplifidy

[@emptycloud8669]

Really great comment friend, expressed how i feel about the video and the game

[@ScottDaniels1977]

I disagree in this regard, you can have too many features in a game. All of these features need development time and Cities is the game is mainly because of the community. The base game has a lot of issues that have been solved by the community, I can only imagine how many more issues there would be in the base game if they had to have more city management features or building design features. I agree with the mix-use, medium density, parking, and less auto depended, but all of these are changes to the city builder gameplay. I'd like to see more options for industry zones such as the ability to build light and heavy types of industrial zones.

[@nattdx846]

literally half the things he just mentioned is in transport fever 2 and i use to play cities skylines and i always felt like something was missing and when i played transport fever 2 i was able to scratch that itch of what was missing in cities skylines

[@MateodeJovel]

I'm so glad you brought up these critiques. The reason I almost always started with infinite money was so that I could start with rail infrastructure only, sometimes waiting until my population was 40,000 before connecting to freeways, but at the cost of perpetual bankruptcy. I also agree that the lack of solid cycling, walking, and other transit demands could be better. Hopefully they take these thoughts into consideration for Cities:Skylines 2

[@SJITZ]

YES, the freeway fetish thing! I've been binging city design channels on YT for a couple of months and when I fired up C:S again yesterday I was so disappointed that I could barely put what I learned into practice.

[@murk_yo]

Most of these would turn CS from a game into a chore. Or at the very least, into a different kind of game (example: Democracy series). While such deep simulation would be cool af, I play games to have a fun challenge and relax. Not having to slog through a second job. I'm especially into the idea of iterative historical building though. The game's unlockables is probably an attempt at this, but doesn't make much sense past giving players goals and milestones to work towards. A historical village-to-metropolis mode would be very interesting and make for more in-depth and living cities, while still not reducing the game to some gray social science pet project.

[@joshflynn2173]

Yeah, I think the guy is asking for a completely different type of game tbh. I understand his points but I personally want to build roads, and expand my city. Not dealing with city politics and stuff. That's why I play fifa's career mode and not football manager. Football manager is way more realistic but its overwhelming and difficult, compared to fifa

[@Lankpants]

I think there would be a good way to implement this sort of political sim into the game in a way that wouldn't be absurdly obtrusive personally. What I'd do is just have a singular "opinion" bar, or possibly one for each zone you can place (low density res, industrial etc). When you do bad things like rip down a neighbourhood or pollute an area that bar should decrease. When you do good things such as build a new heavily used metro or significantly increase traffic flow in an area it should increase. Then open up a simple quest system where your citizens can give you simple requests such as expanding a metro line, increasing walkability in an area or reducing congestion on a road or intersection and have completing this give you a boost to opinion. Finally scale the amount the player is allowed to tax citizens based on opinion rather than just being a flat 12% (this mechanic feels like they wanted to do something then just didn't). It could work if you think about how to implement it using game mechanics like quests and stats rather than trying to make it a perfect simulation, at least in my opinion. It also still lets you rip everything down and rebuild if you want, but that would cost tax revenue, which to me feels like it wouldn't be to big of a cost to pay, it would just force the player to think about when they destroy housing.

[@wiraydh]

Most of his points will not gonna make sense for beginners, But they will be cool features to be included on Hard Mode mod that you get on the content manager since that mod doesn't feel like adding anything to the game at all.

[@BitchspotBlog]

The problem here is that he doesn't seem to recognize that this is a GAME. It's not a reality simulator, it's a video game. Regardless, it is not, nor will it ever be a political simulator. If that's what CO tried to make it, I'd stop playing. Now it might be cool to see a game try that but CS isn't it. As others have pointed out, that's not the game that he's playing. It would entirely destroy game balance and make the game basically unplayable by the target audience. I really wish that people would learn that the game is the game and if you don't like the game, go play something else. It's like trying to play Skyrim and then complaining that there are dragons because that's unrealistic.

[@tcniatcniatcnia]

I watched this video when it first came out and now I'm watching it again after Zoe Bee recommended watching it in their latest video. Miss your content, hope you're doing ok

[@another131]

In Hardcore Mode NIMBY's stop every transit and high density project

[@HarishChouhan]

I hope these suggestions are taken by the developers. As a kid I used to draw slums on a large piece of paper based on the places I knew in Mumbai, India nd then erased it to plan the city better. I dropped out of Architecture and recently when I got into playing this game, I had hoped this would have some ways to replicate planning in real cities but sadly no such feature yet. I presume it would be very difficult to make it but I hope someone works on it.

[@adhdegrees]

New game name “Political gridlock the simulator”

[@osets2117]

Or just "boring"

[@cooldude2251]

Hey can I build this 10 meter connection ? Its not displacing anyone and it would help improve traffic. *3 in game years later "No"

[@agrofindastation]

Yeah, the game Pres wants would be played by pretty much nobody. Well, maybe a few self righteous people for a minute, but then they'd quit because it would suck so hard.

[@andrewzcolvin]

There could be two parties that argue and get nothing done and the player just sits around watching nothing happen. What a fun game!

[@blindovermatter3054]

As a blind guy, I just wanted to say thank you for highlighting the fact that accessibility and disability are something that aren’t covered in the game, I think it would be really neat to actually be a feature that is worked on by paradox in collaboration with people with disabilities to talk about some features, policies, and that sort of thing, well said and keep up the great work

[@kaiserteddie9564]

maybe instead of cities skylines having that, or that being put on a sequel, maybe there should be an entirely new citybuilder based on those concepts. liking it or not, cities skylines is a game made for mass apeal, a lot of these ideas would be either too complicated to code in or balance or too complex for the average player. maybe a more scalled down city builder would be better to demostrate those and more concepts.

[@aaronsutter1155]

There is city state 2 which actually came out a couple weeks ago. It’s a city builder game that is definitely more political based than cities skylines. It gives you different political decisions and laws to pass and even keeps track of your political leaning throughout the game.

[@kaiserteddie9564]

@@aaronsutter1155 its more about politics in general rather than municipal politics though, it also doesnt simulate parking and walkability

[@aaronsutter1155]

@@kaiserteddie9564 yeah that’s fair

[@kaiserteddie9564]

@@aaronsutter1155 looks like a really good game though, its a shame that my pc sucks

[@aaronsutter1155]

@@kaiserteddie9564 I don’t have a pc so unfortunately I have to settle for watching people play. I wish it was on PlayStation

[@Sigismund-von-Luxembourg]

I remember in Sim City 3000 when you would hold the bulldoze marker over a residential area for a prolonged period you could see the sims holding a protest.

[@moxxy3565]

This is why I like biffa so much. He makes up stories and reasons for what he's doing instead of just doing stuff.

[@osets2117]

Exactly, half of the stuff he's suggesting is pointless to have since you, the player, has the final say. It doesn't matter what my Sims want in the end I decide what happens

[@ghastlyghandi4301]

The thing about games, especially strategy games, or city builder games, or games where you have to accumulate wealth. The game is always mostly about maximising efficiency, and therefore getting more money from that efficiency to win easier. while managing the people’s happiness is a secondary interest.

[@pilotox3]

@@Nexamexahexaflexai feel like it’s commonly used only as negative motivation or treated as an annoyance, as in “I can’t do this because the people will get mad”

[@davidjohnson1691]

In reality the developer has to balance level of simulation with fun. I agree with some of your points, but I don’t think the game you would make would have been a hit like C:S. You’re describing something niche and, frankly, in my opinion, boring.

[@jeremymason8081]

Yes frankly I agree 100%. This is more like dlc. A social justice dlc to go along with the environment one, where the riots are changed to peaceful protests. I’d buy it

[@RuukuLada]

Car dependence does suck though, and shouldn't be the default

[@Kiwi2703]

I agree. I wanna build a nice city, not have a political-economic existential crisis. I have enough of that in real life.

[@RuukuLada]

@@Kiwi2703 Regardless of whether there's a political system in the game, the lack of bike/pedestrian street options in this game is embarrassing, and mods struggle to get it right. These street types should at least exist.

[@rahulsujan3699]

While I agree that it’s just a game and that it would difficult to build what he is describing, I completely agree with chapter 3 of this video. The lack of mixed use zoning, walkable neighbourhood and mid density building makes this game quite unappealing to me as a non-American. You can’t really build unique European style cities or plan for walkability and sustainability in this game. It just prioritises car-oriented development. Developers of this game could at least implement these and incentivise these things, it’s kinda crazy how they’re actually de-incentivised like from the example he gave with putting commercial shops next to houses.

[@matthewparker9276]

It's also interesting to see some of the flaws CS inherits from its predecessors, even though they might not be inherently present in the game itself. I was confused why so many cities you see on channels where KZbinrs fix traffic in their viewers cities had oversized roads everywhere with lanes coming out of your ears on every single road, until I remembered that SimCity bases the density you can develop on the size of the road you are developing, so new players approach the game with that mentality. Of course there are also many flaws from the SimCity games that cities skylines includes as part of the mechanics, not just in player assumptions.

[@illinest]

I really appreciate this type of discussion. I really think you need to appreciate this game for what it is rather than hyperfocus on what it's not. Some of the fixes that you want would hurt my enjoyment. I don't want to have realistic costs of redeveloping. I don't want more realistic road maintenance costs. I don't want to spend all my time building parking lots. As an electrician I'm capable of conceptualizing a more interesting method of gamifying the electric grid, but just because it's something that could be interesting to me that doesn't make it appropriate for a game. You seem to be more simulation-motivated than I am. I see the game as an infrastructure traffic simulator with detailing, and the main thing I want more of is more detailing. All of your simulation concerns - especially if carelessly implemented - have the potential to reduce the fun of detailing. The last thing I want to have to deal with when I'm attempting to beautify an office district is the political ramifications.

[@andrewtucker94]

The problem is that all you can make are horrendous American auto dystopias, which we should all be trying to move away from for multiple reasons.

[@hi_im_sota]

Hit the nail on the head!

[@ComradePhoenix]

I mean, there's a lot of great points here (especially accessibility), but like, solving them inherently will increase the minimum system requirements for the game. Even someone running a system with a high-end CPU (and GPU) would likely barely crack 10 fps with the kinds of changes you're suggesting.

[@Xankill3r]

I'm actually surprised that the costs for demolishing neighbourhoods in C:S are basically non-existant. Even the Impression Games city-builders did a decent job of that. Mostly because those neighbourhoods would improve over time as you provided more amenities and demolishing housing in one part to create it elsewhere would take time. You would have to provide all those amenities in the other section that you were creating and that would take time and resources.

[@Dave_Albright]

i would like to have a blueprint mode. You plan your project. People will relized it and demonstrate against your project (big highway through a old neighbourhood). If you start your project. Houses will demolished, it doesn't just vanished... and your whole blueprint area will turn into a big construction site. I hate just vanished and plop up buildings. It needs chaos

[@devvydoesstuff]

25:46 Natural disasters dlc : am i joke to you?

[@Xenro66]

16:00 I was actually thinking about this recently... I live in Europe, so I just assumed walkability is just.... The norm. NotJustBikes opened my eyes to how car-dependent the US is with the multi-lane "stroads" that are death traps for pedestrians and push everything far apart, and encourage urban sprawl. I even looked at my long term CS save that I've had for aaaages, and it's... Just full of stroads and while there's loads of quality public transit, it's still all connected via roads, primarily. *There are no areas of my city that can't live without a car,* and that's wild. You joke about the walkability challenge, but before this vid was even recommended I wanted to try it. My dreams are shattered lol

[@jarskil8862]

I hate when people use "Europe" as some homogenic place where everything is perfect 😅 I'm also from Europe, but in my country it would be almost impossible to be without a car, if you planned to leave either of two big cities. Where I live nearby towns are 100km away and buses might go once a day and not on weekends. And on national scale, I'm living in medium size town. So for smaller towns and villages the situation is worse.

[@vacationbonerschool]

@@jarskil8862 Are there not trains? I’m in the UK and you can get pretty much anywhere with a combination of buses and trains, but we are a very small country compared to others so it’s different

[@alexanderlinderson2655]

The idea of a more hardcore sim kind of stresses me out. That's not why I love cities skylines.

[@SpudsCS]

Intresting vid, some very good points but if they implemented all off that it'd would become super hard and slow to play, theres a lot you can do with mods to adress some of the issues like parking & mixed use zoneing. For me personaly as a player I want all the power I dont want peskey cims telling me no I can't put this or that where I want, but it would be nice to have that in a hard mode or toggleable where you have to deal with the ocasional protest like the disasters dlc. The thing id most like to see is an overhaul of the weather systems to have seasons.

[@TonytheTaiwaneseTurtle]

It is not just the cost. The idea you can build a conventional power plant or other large projects overnight is also unrealistic. So things like energy conservation policies are not as worthwhile as they should be.

[@safe-keeper1042]

*Not Just Bikes has entered the chat.

[@samu-4k]

yes that’s so true especially the car-dependency aspect is annoying. You can, throughout DLCs like Mass Transit or Plazas and Promanades reduce that but the simulation isn’t changed by them. Nice Video

[@edwardkeirle4453]

The great thing about cities is that it doesn't require any in-depth knowledge of city planning to have fun. It's pick up and play. If you're bored of the current format of cities (which I wouldn't blame you for, considering the number of hours you've put in) then find something else that piques your interest

[@Jacob-yg7lz]

Why should city planning be considered less important than traffic engineering? You pretty much need to learn traffic engineering for this game otherwise your city will die when it gets too big,

[@3dmaster205]

@@Jacob-yg7lz Hell, that is the case in real life; a city stands and falls with proper road and traffic management, everything you want to do or see; traffic management. It's why most North American cities are insolvent, and most European cities aren't. Car dependent hellscapes are bad in pretty much every metric you can think of.

[@warmike]

the problem is that there is no such game yet

[@avert_bs]

That game doesn't exist

[@AsymmetricalCrimes]

Building accessibility is not what city builders are about. The game would not be fun if we had to manually place down elevators and ramps for every single building.... Not even the Sims franchise makes the player responsible for that. I agree with more pollution effects in game but I think you underestimated the intelligence of cities skylines players. Everyone knows mayors don't make all the decisions, we don't need a video game to preach that to us. One of my pet peeves is when game developers treat their audience like idiots. It's insulting.

[@TylerNeflas]

To your point about infrastructure removal, I think implementing something like Mini motorways does where the segments remain until all trips have completed is the way to go. Great video tho! And I really hope CS2 takes to heart a lot of modern city planning philosophy.

[@undercoverduck]

While watching this on my little phone screen I thought I was looking at drone footage rather than a videogame right until the moment I noticed how the cars moved

[@wildcraftone]

I’d love to see a game where you do “planning” and it builds it over time. Not instantly. So you have to do some very serious planning and sometimes your plan can’t go through in certain areas due to resistance or what have you.

[@alohatigers1199]

But is that the game want to play? From a casual FUN game to a more strategic management game. This is why I prefer to play FIFA > FM. I want to PLAY and control, not manage

[@charlesnew5834]

​@@alohatigers1199 I get what you mean but I think C:S's target demographic mostly leans towards the kinds of people that play FM or other management/strategy games. Right now it doesn't seem to be doing as much as it can in that area.

[@wildcraftone]

The point is I don’t want to play another City Skylines, I want to play a city building simulator with more dynamics you have to account for building.

[@eltontv2]

@@charlesnew5834 Not true at all. Where did you get that statistic?

[@anniehimself]

Fuck yeah

[@theknightstar8640]

The whole community and seeing the effects of your decisions really reminded me of another city development game called frostpunk. In that game each and every decision will have effects on people, and people will often bring up their problems. If you want a more down to earth human based city sim I highly reccomend it, though the game is definitely a brutal one so prepare to have a lot of tough learning

[@horatiohuskisson5471]

It’s very US style as the cities you can build are primarily car centric. No mixed use zoning

[@canorth]

Glad to see this. I wanted to build a European style city of my dreams and quit even playing before I understood the mechanics enough to explain why it was impossible.

[@andrewtucker94]

Exactly, the only cities you can build would be horrendous to live in, like Houston or something.

[@MDLC424]

You can very easily cause displacement and force more damage if your city is planned in just a way. If you build it so that you have every type of thing in an area, and use infrastructure to just… make cars go away. If they do need to leave, have a *robust* transportation network. Use airports, nearby ships and rail to have more points of distribution to reduce long trips.

[@Nerthus2010]

I want to play a game with cities skyline. Not have something that is only for someone who has studied city planing and wants a simulation to try different things out. If city planning need a simulation to try out reality, ok, what about developing such a program?

[@berneymark]

Some of this sounds amazing, but honestly a lot of it sounds awful. I don't come to this game for real realism, I come to this game to enjoy making one of their cities. I don't care if it doesn't work in real life. And making these cities doesn't make me forget about the real world issues of disabilities and accessibility; car crashes; parking and all of the these other things. That being said I don't want 100 things to micromanage, this game already has a lot to manage. And part of managing traffic in this game anyway IS adding trains, busses, ETC to get cars off the road. I don't understand how can say that isn't. Also walkable plazas are in this game. With buildings and everything. Maybe you want to only review without DLC which I can understand, I hate the old EA model too, but it's disingenuous to say this wasn't ever considered. And really, the biggest issue with this is people just forget what expectations even mean in a game anymore. This is ran on a computer. The game was made in 2015 (IIRC). And guess what happens when you sim a lot more things? That's right, it requires more resources, which means less people are able to play the game on release (back then). You cannot just disallow people from playing your game because you want to create something so advanced for your 2020+ audience that doesn't yet exist. Not all of your recommendations will necessarily be that taxing, but a lot would and when it's all combined together. This should be stuff you pushed for in the sequel not in a game that was made six years ago for six years ago hardware. EDIT: I also really hope they don't ever use American statistics on anything to develop in mind for this game. I'm not from America, and most people in the world are not from America. I don't want to develop some car centric American cities, and to further that point cities aren't just European or American. There are seven continents and over 100 countries. It may not seem like it but overall, love the video. It's just not all so realistic, the search for total realism in a video game because it's a piece of software that will always have a glass ceiling due to the hardware requirements of the time it's made in. But I can only hope CS2 can work on things like this (I personally love the idea of pollution you brought up as I really care about green things), and that it will be even better than the first once it's had more work done. :)

[@madao7865]

An idea would be to extend the level-up/level-down mechanics of campuses to city districts in general.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

Like residential districts should level up from single family residential to skyscraper apartments over a series of steps, not remain singles until you rezone to high density and half the homes become tall apartment houses or skycraper condos and the other half become abandoned and disappear for a bit.

[@madao7865]

@@edwardmiessner6502 I thought more of something like leveling up based on citizen happiness and their expectations. If yo build a huge apartment or office building in the middle of a low-rise residential neigbourhood (or allow it through your zoning codes) the current residents will not be too pleased with that. The tax income might increase but the neighborhood level as a whole may drop (regardless of the fact, that the service coverage is the same or better). On the other hand, if the player densifies the district center over time with an organic growth pattern, noone would really mid and the district could level up due to the added jobs and shopping opportunities.

[@Solus749]

@@madao7865 and how do you plan to code or simulate that? How would the quest tracker work and what would trigger x quest to be enabled etc. Understand that there are limitations in what you can code and how you code it. There is a reason pen and paper dungeons and dragons with a human dm have diffrent flair and reactivity than the one done in a computer simulation. The computer one can't invent new options out of thin air as it all have to be precoded and predicted and in a pen and paper setting that is HARD! Same thing with political simulation in a city builder, in a politcal simulator that is built around it however it is very possible.

[@madao7865]

@@Solus749 It's less about coding and more about game design. The idea is to incentivize and disincentivize certain behaviors and introducing interesting trade-off mechanics. What exactly those behaviors are is yet to be determined but the points in the video are a good starting point, imo.

[@Solus749]

@@madao7865 yea but still you need to be able to smoothly implement them within the general gameplay loop without them becoming intrusive. THAT is much harder than it seems and is one of the main reason why neither sim city or city skylines have large parking lot assets. Instead they either have roadside parking or the car just despawn. Because that DOESN'T break the gameplayloop. Political simulators have these simulations built in but they don't simulate 400 simultaniusly moving cars, trash disposial in EVERY house etc at the same time. Like I said there is a limit then it becomes more of a hazzle than it is worth to add that extra simulation and th ebest part is that both these simulations need to cross pollinate at the same time as the game tracks movement of 100 if not thousends of individual sims journey to and from work as well as shops/school etc. So it need to check this politcal mood while tracking location and current task they are on. There is a limit and these suggestions are very fast approaching it if not allready crossed it. There are politcal simulators where you just set policies and your sims react but they don't exist in a full on developed city builder.

[@sergiofreitas9368]

Something I never got about my city is: I made it walkable, I made the public transport excellent, and I reduced parking spots, but cims STILL prefer cars. Rather than going downstairs to a shop, they'd rather drive (or take a train) across the city to go to another random shop. That's the main issue to me, Cims need to have an "assigned place to live", and they should prefer jobs and shopping closer to their house, rather than driving across the city for no reason.

[@roqsteady5290]

I like the challenge of managing car parking and car parks give much more life to your cities and indicate where Cims want to be. Traffic manager (TMPE) has a realistic parking setting and the ability to stop traffic from despawning. That is good start already!

[@lucashm302]

People keep saying that 'it's just a game' but lots of stuff that you mentioned would make it even more fun to play as a game. I hope they take some of it into consideration if they make a sequel and continue to add it through the form of DLC like P&P in the meantime.

[@Ilikefire2793]

I want a transport fever style train/ subways planing system . I want complex train interchanges underground, rail yard simulations, airport zoning and planning, better and more complex industrial that don't require and create lots of truck traffic.

[@AY-hq4qz]

And traffic and transit pollution which Transport Fever also delivers on.

[@warmike]

Workers & Resources: Soviet Republic. Early access (so there are a lot of unrealistic elements for now), no subways yet (announced for the next update), but there is a very complex industry, trains and airport systems. You can either give it a try right now, or wait for more updates, they're pretty frequent.

[@firefox5926]

have you ever played a game called"democracy 3" it sounds liek what you want to do is have simcity 4 with democracy 3 but a a local rather than national lvl

[@A_Baguette_]

Your proposed game would be realistic but terrible. I think the misunderstanding is at 19:43, it's not supposed to model reality, it's supposed to be lighthearted fun. All your additions would make the game behave like reality, but where do we stop? How in-depth must the political system be? I would never play a game where I have to worry about realistic decision-making through collaboration with AI, climate change, and not being able to tear down that house that I accidentally zoned because of socio-economic repercussions on the unfortunate soul that bought it. My main issue here is the overuse of the word "should", framing this video as a critique of the system isn't right in my opinion because your "suggestions" aren't constructive. Making that proposed game fun would take a lot more effort, programing it all would be a nightmare. I think it's worse because some of your ideas are actually really good and implementable, but mixing those in with less fun and less implementable ideas cheapens the whole thing. Maybe put the informative stuff first and then realistic suggestions at the end? This video is super cool and absolutely informative but I just can't agree with most of it.

[@DestructiconSC]

Some of the things you've suggested are cool and could be made into individual features with some toggles. Such as higher maintenance and land acquisition costs, higher maintenance for elevated roads, more localized activities and more pedestrian happiness and management. However what you described as the beginning of the video with neighborhood politics being involved, and politics in general, I believe would require its own separate game. And to be honest I don't even want such a game, I play games to disconnect from day to day life, and if I play a city builder I want to be able to craft my ideal most beautiful city, I don't want to be bogged down in the drudgery of politics. I also think you argue too much on the topic of how the game shapes our perception. As much as we enjoy it, we can still realize this is ultimately a game. I know its a game form the moment I press delete on a building and it just magically disappears, leaving behind no rubble. I believe this is your weakest argument and suggestion. Again, this ties back into making it an even more accurate simulation, I don't want that. Its clear there is some niche of people that might enjoy a game like this, but its not for everyone, I think a lot of people just want to chill and make a beautiful city. I don't think City Skylines needs to go down that route, but another city maker can.

[@Mihai98]

Yeah the whole political thing from the begining is bothering me. This is a city builder game not a political one. It would be fun to add a mechanic where one neighberhood would demand something and if you don't offer they will protest in front of the City Hall. This way you can connect the player more with the cims (because now they can "communicate" with you only with the Chirp App). But the rest of the things he points out are nice things wich they could implement in the future game.

[@joeconner7490]

I have some things to say that I want you to read Chapter 1: It sounds very American-centric, as in its an issue very important to your country but to me and others abroad, we never really had to worry about those specific issues. I have always found your videos informative and relevant to the US. However, as someone from Australia, it's hard to relate as we haven't screwed up our cities in the same way as yours. There are other ways apart from the American way to destroy cities. I do agree with the lack of demolition and land acquisition costs as they are extremely relevant. Chapter 2: I agree with you but remember it's just a game. Again, different cities around the world have very different government structures, I don't think it would be fair to just include an American-style planning department, (as it I defiantly not the best). Chapter 3: Pretty spot on 99% correct. The lack of mixed-use and medium-density zoning is killing me. I have very extensive urban planning knowledge and I see where you are coming from. But, it's just a game. And I feel like honestly the game was created mainly for people with the freeway fetish and that is partially why it's so popular, people have really turned freeway building into a form of art. Overall, many of these issues are currently being addressed with mods or the imagination of the player. But the game is due for an upgrade. The reason the game is so popular is not because of how realistic or unrealistic it is. Ist because everyone has a choice on what playing style they want to do with not many limitations. If the game becomes too realistic then it won't be fun or popular as people want to use it as an escape where they can build their perfect utopia, carefree. I want and agree with most of the things you are suggensting, but this game can barely run on standard computers currently because it just requires so much ram and CPU power and other stuff. City Planner Plays did a super amazing video on his wishlist for the future of the game which was very good. I would love a response please very much as I am a big fan and would like to see everyone's point of view

[@Doddibot]

I agree that it will be very hard to simulate politics in a game, because which politics? The politics of building cities varies substantially from Singapore to Dubai to Madrid to Toronto. Aside from doing all of them and giving the option for which to enable on your city, I don't know how you'd make it realistic without making it just be overly American.

[@DomovoiCookie]

Out of curiosity, whereabouts in Australia are you? I live on the west coast in Perth and it's very Americanised here - huge distances to cover, a stretched-thin bus system that nobody uses if they can avoid it as it can take two hours to travel across town, a train network that services the areas it reaches well but doesn't go everywhere it needs to (and also shuts off at night, leaving nightlifers to sleep on the street if they miss a train and can't afford an Uber), freeways cutting through suburban neighbourhoods that back up horribly at rush hour, and poorly designed collector roads with no bus lanes that are often lined with houses, traffic lights every second block, borderline restrictive speed limits that no-one follows anyway ... Driving here is miserable at best and dangerous at worst, and for many people there's no better option :/

[@shadeblackwolf1508]

Dutch guy here. I would love to build cities like the ones i know but it's just not possible... easiy my biggest complaint with the game

[@arthurdemelosa]

Have you guys played Frostpunk? That's a scaled down city builder, but heavily based on political decisions. E.g.: should children work on mining coal to increase production, since we will be having a storm in two days and need that extra coal stored? Obviously, cities in Frostpunk are comparatively small, and the game's atmosphere is murky. But it shows that it's possible for a city builder to address the political issues of... Building a city.

[@brytonheringer2611]

I love Frostpunk! The way the game mechanizes how one decision effects whether you are the mayor or not. Also, the fact that you choose which way you want your society to progress to is a great feature. However, Frostpunk is a post-apocalyptic game. The world has basically gone extinct, except for a few humans. The games aren’t the same. In my experience, the most people you can have in a Frostpunk city is around 600, while in Cities Skylines, it’s around a hundred thousand (with no mods). I hope that Cities Skylines could make an ability to create a game like Frostpunk, except not a post apocalyptic, but a in depth game of the now

[@AY-hq4qz]

Great game by 11 Bit Studios. I also really enjoyed their This War of Mine game which was a totally different spin on what a game about war could be like from the civilian’s perspective. Leave it up to those French developers…

[@andreaskurz7061]

Fair points made, but the first one with „cities develop over centuries“ completely discredit the achievements of cities like dubai or shenzhen who did in 40 years what others cant even do in 200

[@burgerkingofficialyoutubec2798]

I appreciate your thoughts on changing the game. I feel like for many people (myself included) would stop playing if the game becomes too complicated and political like that. But then again if cities skylines 2 comes out, that would be cool as like a second gamemode. For me this game is like a break from a real world where you can design your ideal city and not be stricken with consequences. I mainly play this game cause it’s relaxing and It just wouldn’t be as good with too much politics and realism in the game

[@purteatin]

the impact is exaactly what the Sim City Developers said why they made Sim City simple, Because civil engineers often get distracted by very strange and extravagant rules... when we all know that Citizens cannot obey their rules in real life. Also with the advent of the Ford Mustang marked the year that the speeds of cars are far too fast.

[@purteatin]

Apartments are not small towns and civil engineers should focus on creating small towns and not apartments.

[@Critical_Hit]

Good video, reminds me how much I miss Donoteat's Cities Skylines videos. Well he is too busy now with the podcast I guess.

[@Seriously_Unserious]

I'll add my 2 cents regarding your 6 solutions 1- Walkability and Livability - There is SOME of this in the form of parks improving happiness and Cims will gladly leave their cars at home and walk if they at all can, but the simulation could definitely do so much more and make this aspect much more prominent then it is. The fact you didn't notice the parks effect in this video says a lot about how easy to miss and ignore the current "livability" simulation is. 2- Mixed Use Zoning - not all all in Vanilla, but can be added with mods and assets. It's very challenging for your casual player to access however and I've not bothered with the mixed use assets and mods. This should be in the basic game or at least a DLC. 3- I think there is an option you can activate to turn car crashes on, but I'm not 100% sure as I've never used it, just seen it. It's buried in the settings and I doubt 99% of the CS players out there have even seen this setting. I attribute this to piss poor documentation to explain what the settings are, where they are, and how they affect gameplay, stuff that in the old days, would have been in an instruction manual, but is just left for "the players to figure out on their own" by lazy, cheap developers today. 4- I agree to a point. In Sim City from the original up to 4, infrastructure VS tax revenue was way too far the other way to the point it would become almost impossible to maintain a positive cashflow for larger cities, effectively capping growth and soft locking the more advanced infrastructure options as there was never any way to afford them. CS, however, went too far the other way, making maintaining a profitable city capable of growth too easy. There has to be a happy middle ground where infrastructure costs enough to be a challenge, but not so much that it becomes impossible to grow past a certain point. 5- Not in Vanilla, but is available through the mod Traffic Manager: President's Edition (TMPE). It's disabled by default, but in the TMPE settings, you can enable "advanced parking AI" which means all Cims who travel somewhere by car, must now find a parking space or they can't finish their trip. No more "pocket cars" with this turned on. This should be in the main game however, in fact all of TMPE should be in the vanilla game. 6- This is already in the game. Check your pollution overlays in a big city with lots of car traffic and you'll see lines of pollution along the major roads, in addition to your blobs of industrial and city services pollution (eg power plants, waste processing, etc). 7- Effects of Climate Change - some vestiges of this is added in via Natural Disasters DLC, but more attention to pollution could have been added in via this DLC too, something of a missed opportunity for Colossal Order here.

[@caydenmurray5971]

I think the game is amazing just the way it is. I completely agree with u however and I believe that the game is pretty unrealistic. However I still prefer the fun side of games and I think the game should stay the way it is. I respect ur opinion tho. Keep the good content coming bro.

[@glock4455]

Indeed. Besides, my interest in C:S lead me though a path of content in and out of youtube about real world urban development. I love the game just the way it is, to complicate it more would take the leisure off it IMO

[@Viljarms]

I'd take parking space planning actually.

[@cakeisyummy5755]

How about this;Let's have more than 1 City Simulator game. C:S shouldn't be the only one.

[@tbrown5657]

From the sounds of it, this game strays quite a ways from the strict definition of simulation and towards straight wish fulfilment, where the only wishes you get to fulfil are Robert Moses'.

[@jeffparker1617]

not really, you can absolutely focus your city on public transport, walking paths, bicycle lanes. At some point because sims and goods import/export from out of town either by train or car, you will need to have a connection to a freeway for some goods to leave the map.

[@andrewzcolvin]

Bro, you have awesome ideas and commentary. But it’s a GAME.

[@toogarooga8788]

"When we blasted freeways through existing low-income and minority neighborhoods..." oh my god it's a game shut upppppppppppp

[@arthurofalsen2110]

You know what the problem is with making games too real?? Is that the more complex they are, the more inaccessible they are. I mean, just look at Shadow Empire, I doubt you've heard of it, it is one of the most complex 4x games out there

[@youatemycheeto]

Awesome video. I really appreciate the chapter about parking. The simulation includes all the fun of roadbuilding with none of the costs and frustration of providing parking for cars your sims are apparently using to get around.

[@oxain88]

Well maybe thats why they didn't include it. They wanted to make a game that is fun, not frustrating. Like you said, road building is fun. So if you wanna build a city using nothing but roads, you'll get punished because 1/3 of your city is now parking. But I do agree to the point that you should be able to build a city without roads. But dont punish players that has the road fetish. I can watch hours of Overcharged Egg build a massive intersection, or Biffa fixing traffic with mods. With the displacement and massive cost increase suggested in the video, people would have to turn on infinite money, for every city build, if they wanna build something cool. Or spend three years irl building up the money to make 20km of highway.

[@KubicaMr]

@@oxain88 maybe just parking needs as another thing to compute and eat computer recources and CS has limited engine that can simulate only 65K for people and 16K for moving vehicles at once, so adding parking needs is another level to compute.

[@blanco7726]

All of what you said are things that real city planners take into consideration, so if you want to pay attention to all these factors, stop playing Cities skylines and get a role in city planning. Because this is essentially a sandbox game and barring a couple players here and there, no one wants to plan a real city, they want to plan an imaginary city.

[@safe-keeper1042]

Particularly agree with you about traffic, road use, and so on. Merely removing the ability for cims to spawn cars out of nothing, for then to just vanish them again, would make the game so much more enjoyable. Yes, I say enjoyable, because it'd encourage you to play with more parts of the game, primarily collective transportation.

[@Zyo117]

Huh. You know the connotation of the term "collective transport" and "public transport" seem different from a North American viewpoint. Politically, if you campaigned for 'more money towards collective transport', I feel like you'd get more supporters than saying 'more money to public transport'.

[@safe-keeper1042]

@@Zyo117 Hmm. I think I just translated a bit too dirtectly from my native Norwegian. I meant to say public transportation :p . But yeah, maybe :p.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

There is an option for Despawning Off, but no idea about spawning within the map. I think with Despawning Off, spawning should automatically be switched off too. No cars magically appearing at the vanilla metro stops.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

@@Zyo117 no, in North America, especially here in the USA, "collective" would be even worse because that word connotes Communism! 😒

[@dogameda]

TMPE does correct it if you allow the "realistic parking" on the opitions. It also helps to eliminate that non-sense bizarre traffic that occurs in front of metro stations and the aeroport when hundreds of people try to take their cars out of their pockets

[@djhagrid300]

Another comment: Cars don't make that much pollution. It's a common myth/misconception that gas powered automobiles of the current Era are pollution machines. Most air pollution comes from commercial transportation, industry, commercial buildings, offices, and most of all power and heat production. Despite what big business might have you believe, consumers are hardly responsible for basically every kind of pollution. "Don't use plastic." "Don't drive cars." "Turn off your lights when you're not using them." "Turn down the heat or AC when you aren't home." That's all a big scam... Consumers make up so little pollution its almost comical, and the whole way along we're being lied to, or at least not told the truth, about where pollution comes from. The only way to fix the pollution problem is to change our energy sources to renewable, greener solutions. Such as nuclear power, which is cleaner and safer than coal, oil, and natural gas combined.

[@Thehoeh]

All of these things are great points, but the option of being able to turn on (or off) a historical mode or a simulation mode would be nice for people who don't want to go that far into socioeconomic consequences and impacts

[@MrGalileo100]

I think cities skylines sorta exists as a fast forward version of what you are talking about like most simulation video games, like if you need to redesign a part of the city to fit certain needs in real life it could take months and months of approvals, meeting, legal stuff etc. which I think is why so many people enjoy games like this since all that mundane real life stuff is skipped over. I think if the game developers went for full realism the game would just become too complex with too many systems that have to function together and that you as a player have to keep up with such as politics, homelessness etc its almost like expecting a sims life to last real life years in the sims 4 it would make the game less of a game and more of a real life simulator Not to say that it couldn't be made fun but I think it would just take too much work to implement for a large portion of players to just turn it off since so many like myself play the game to forget about real life for a few hours and now imagine having to deal with fake AND real politics.

[@MrGalileo100]

Also I think the simulation you are proposing sounds extremely complex if the game had to simulate 100k lives of people with friends, preferred grocery locations etc all at the same time the performance might suffer a lot. I think it's just more practical for the game's performance to sorta "fake simulate" the lives of your citizens aka just making them numbers. but maybe in the future this could be possible

[@MrGalileo100]

Part of that performance drop would be largely caused by citizens actually having an opinion of what you are doing since every time u open the train tool for example and move you mouse across the map the game has to do a bunch of math in the background dynamically so it can calculate the new price based on each citizens individual issues

[@MrGalileo100]

Last thing it normally takes a full team of people to create, manage and maintain a city so I feel like trying to do it all in one game by yourself might be too much work if the game was very similar to real life

[@bahaasaleh191]

I understand where you are coming from pres, but this is like saying GTA encourages bad driving habits, for a lot of people the game is just a toy, something I want to mess around with to get my mind off the real world. Having all the features could be something like game-mode rather than the game it’s self. Either way, great video essay!

[@mrslagowhoreusrex6300]

Tis funny tho watchin this I’m like pressy boy it’s a video game it’s meant to be fun if we worried bout all political backlash we would never get anything built in a quick time not every wants to plan & spend 6 hours per city street

[@faragar1791]

25:44 Isn't that already in the game with the natural disasters DLC?

[@BeastModeTempo]

Welcome back Pres, great to see more content again! I love CS, and I love the way you play CS with realism and discussing urban planning topics, strategies, and historical prevalence to how cities get to where they are. Agreed in that the main metrics and objective of CS at the current state are unrealistic and all about quick and senseless (usually ugly and exaggerated) expansion. Add on the horribly cheesy Vanilla buildings (green cities buildings are better but, but I've yet to see a city where buildings are essentially covered in grass, thus making them.. sustainable?) and poor simulation mechanics make it so that mods and essentially turning off the games core aspects outside of being a sandbox feels essential to me. I can totally appreciate all the desires you mentioned for the game, and hope we see something that does take more into account in the future, but I would want all of this optional depending on how I'm wanting to play that given time/city. I think mixed-use buildings are a great first step towards realism since practically every place I've been to that's urban or non-suburban is mostly made of these. Think of pretty much any European City or US city, and smaller towns... the core is nothing but mixed use and duplex/2-5 story buildings until you reach the outskirts/suburbs.

[@shaun8269]

Interesting video, but I do disagree on a few points: The game does encourage walkability and good public transport as that reduces traffic flow significantly. Also, aesthetics choices of the in-game people are somewhat there as parks near homes increases happiness significantly. I would like to see pedestrianised streets tho. The progression of the game as population increases helps the player not get overwhelmed, but there should be an option for veteran players with everything unlocked and a higher starting budget.

[@PerryKleinhenz]

Great video! This expressed a lot of the feelings I was having with the shortcomings of City Skylines in a really nice way. I see a lot of comments raising points about how difficult it would be to have a political simulation as part of the game, which I think is a fair point. But I think it would be totally feasible to have more realistic infrastructure costs, parking requirements and mixed use zoning. The game is supposed to be fun, but it also becomes a representation of truth for many players. If someone only plays City Skylines and never reads "The High Cost of Free Parking," "Street Fight" or "The Geography of Nowhere" their understanding of city planning will be warped towards the car-dependent American status quo. It's fine to enjoy C:S as a game, Pres obviously does! But that doesn't mean you can't think critically about the game.

[@yoavmor9002]

Always put your best 2 chapters first. About chapter 1, I don't care about displacement, that's just not what the game is about. I don't care about people who no longer live in my city. It simply wouldn't be fun. I never cared for any individual citizen either, only that my city worked. If I wanted to root for some individuals I would have played the Sims. About chapter 2, I don't give a rat's ass for the city development process. City sims have always been quasi God Simulators. Pretty much all Paradox Interactive games are like that too (with an exception of Crusader Kings, and even that is pretty much a God sim). Having to get approval from the city council for every thing I do, even the big stuff, wouldn't be fun at all. I'm sorry if I misscharacterized the contents of Chapter 2, couldn't stand listening to it anymore after you brought up the city council. Should have started with walkability and mixed zoning, like I assume your video mentioned going by the fact Not Just Bikes has a pinned comment here. TL;DR when I play a city sim, I don't want to drown in bureaucracy and simulated outrage, I simply want to build a fun city that works like clockwork.

[@robmarney]

Just make demolition cost scale with the level of the building you're replacing and the number of squares demolished this week. Now it feels like the neighborhood is resisting massive changes, and you didn't have to add an entire game system.