Proper Sword Grip - "The living Hand"

[@madkappa4428]

Actually we Italians historically didn't had opposable thumbs, only Germans did. After ww2 we became mixed and created what we now call HEMA

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Ahahahahahah! I see you know history! Very good!

[@JunelieArthur111]

One thing that people don't realize, or maybe they don't put it into words, is how your own physiology should influence how you hold your sword. I've had a few coaches tell me that "you should hold the sword this way" or "that way" only because that's how they've been taught, and that is how it is comfortable for them. Since I come from a stick-fighting background, the "most optimal" way to grip your weapon is through the hammer grip. However, once you start handling live blades, you'd find that not all blades are agreeable to the hammer grip. Sure, the short, choppy ones are optimal for hammer grip, but other blade shapes react differently to the hand. One person may find the hammer grip suitable for the way their hand curls, but the same can't be said for everyone. You may have longer or shorter fingers. Your fingers may be wider or thinner. Your palms may have "more meat" than others. Your hands may be bigger or smaller. Many others. Finding the right grip for you can only come with experience, however. Sadly, some people may find instructors who tell them that only one way is correct before they can find what works for them. The correct concepts should be guidelines instead of unchanging rules. Learn how it is optimal to hold a sword, then adjust the said group to what works for you. Little adjustments can impact how comfortable it is to hold a sword.

[@fabricio-agrippa-zarate]

All amazing with your videos as always, but let's talk for a second about how aesthetically pleasant your backgrounds are always. Truly a beautiful show of North Italian landscape.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Thank you! I think nature and swordfighting fits well together ^^

[@swordpeople]

I started doing this a month back or so after watching a lot of your sparing footage, and I love it! Give so many options and keeps me well covered in posta longa. I don't see any reason for italian fencers not to do it since Fiore learned from both Italian and German masters, he was probably well aware of this technique.

[@corrugatedcavalier5266]

Great video as always! I always thought it was a bit silly to say you couldn't use thumb grip in Fiore. Especially when you have something like Bicorno which significantly changes the grip on the tool.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

I think the same

[@Davlavi]

Underestimated topic.

[@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing]

A good topic and information Federico. Specially for newer people.

[@flamezombie1]

I just made a video on this because people had been asking me and I hadn’t seen any on this particular detail haha! Great vid. The old masters don’t tend to talk specifically about what your hands should be doing.

[@KaVeikiaSimas]

Good video, thanks. Also you have the best backgrounds of all the people who make HEMA videos.

[@Gryndar1]

Well said Frederico, well said.

[@Tahllia]

My bad jokes aside. Thank you for this video. It puts into words something that I as an inexperienced fencer have slowly come to realize naturally. I haven’t been able to put these concepts into solid words, nor defend my point of view properly when questioned on it.

[@esgrimaxativa5175]

great video!

[@aaronaxel4760]

It's been a bit since I've watched your videos. You look like you've been putting on some muscle, Federico. Looking good, brother. Thanks for the videos.

[@PetrKavan]

What about the grips shown by Fiore himself? In first eight masters at the beginning of "Sword in two hands" section ... or rather masters 3-8 (the first two seem to be about footwork and posta variations). I mean, he did not differentiate between thumb grip and handshake, but he had shown several far different ways to hold a sword.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

While looking at them and considering them, after enough time I stopped looking this tiny particulars of the drawings, to an extent, drawings are one of the motivations why so many Fiore practitioners find hard to put into practice the master’s teachings, there’s too much focus on them, while the glossa is far more important. I keep looking at the images, but more as broad guidelines for the objective to reach, which I personally think is what they were meant for. I avoid looking at particulars, and while talking about application, I evaluate efficiency and effectiveness over other aspects, as a fighter should try to do. Other than that, if and when those grip happens during the weapon handling process, they are more then welcome if they reach the meant goal.

[@PetrKavan]

@@FedericoMalagutti I agree that there is no point in trying to distinguish, say, position of a thumb from the drawing. The drawing is not meant for such details, and can even be wrong. Yet it still shows several ways how to hold a sword, each for different purpose. Fiore does not elaborate on this much in Plays, but he certainly shows diffenet holds for different purposes. - For throwing (master 3) - One handed with better control (master 4) - One handed with extended reach (master 5) - Half swording (master 6) - Common hold (master 7 - maybe shown just for a contrast with master 8) - "Murder stroke" (master 8) - strangely he emphasises defensive features (stopping attack) instead of offensive ones (hard to block, breaking through armour) Also it seems to me that a lot is hidden in masters 1 and 2. That would be for another video, but I would be glad to see your take on this. - Every guard, except for central ones, will be a little different depending on which foot is in front, but all are called the same. - Concept of first guard being "counter" to the second guard. Does it mean that both are same, but with different leg in front? (that "counter" meaning rather something like "mirror image"). Or does it mean that second guard counters the first one, because it has better reach? - Footwork - passing or advancing steps, rotating. Funny that all complex footwork is finished in only several sentences. - What are "turns" of the sword, that should be similar to "turns" of footwork? I have no idea here. And finally - loving your content, Fiore started to make sense to me only after watching your videos.

[@alinvid6098]

Honestly I mostly use the hammer grip ( sort of... during the cut when I turn the longsword it transitions a bit into the handshake grip but not all the way ) using my right hand just below the crossguard and I keep the other hand on the Scent stopper pommel of my longsword... that gives me more explosiveness in my cuts and thrusts. I realise not everybody holds it like that and preffers the handshake grip but it is my opinion that for explosive fast cuts it is not the best grip... using the hammer grip below the crossguard makes you hold tye Longsword more secure and the other hand on the pommel using it as leverage let's you stop the cut abruptly...

[@edoardodalpra4742]

Ciao, sto iniziando a interessarmi di questa disciplina e volevo chiederti, quanto costa l'equipaggiamento e tutto? Mi interessa la spada da lato tanto che volevo prendermene una sintetica da Black Fencer per studiare un po' di tecnica solo

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Ciao! Ti consiglio di guardare questo video. Per quanto concerne le Spade da Lato nello specifico puoi visitare i siti dei Fabbri che cito in cerca di quello che più preferisci. Un saluto. kzbin.info/www/bejne/i3jPiI17aN6Xjq8

[@Stickyittoyou]

I'm thinking of changing from learning German to Italian Sword techniques due to how well your videos are. Thank you for the wealth of information you present in everything you do.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

You are welcome! :-)

[@HEMA_Koeln]

There is only one Grip... the one that works with our heavy, unmobile Gloves ;)

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Well actually inside my sparring gloves I almost move the fingers as I do without gloves. If you aren’t using them I would suggest to try them out

[@HEMA_Koeln]

@@FedericoMalagutti Thanks for the Advice, will try it out. Maybe I should buy larger Gloves!

[@Tahllia]

Great video, but not once did he talk about gorilla grip.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Uga buga!

[@madkappa4428]

Shout out to my favourite compagno d'arme that says only the thumb grip exists because some maestri in Dijon told him so

[@FedericoMalagutti]

lol

[@MartinGreywolf]

I both completely agree and vehemently disagree with this video. One one hand, thumb grip absolutely does make your fencing better if you do Fiore and adds options and tools into your toolbox, posta breva especially works a lot better with it. It's also true that this would be an arguably authentic thing to do, Lichtenauer and Fiore did, after all, live in the same country and there is a good chance at least some of their students were trained in both (although this depends a lot on how widespread their traditions were, which is hard to determine). On the other hand, the H in HEMA stands for historical, and that should mean our arguments are supported by primary evidence. If you are saying that the thumb grip is a part of Fiore's system, you need to have a better proof of than than just "it works better with it" - by that metric, a machinegun is a part of Fiore's system as well. I went and double-checked the illustrations in Fiore's unarmored sword, and there is no thumb grip there. There definitely isn't a mention of it (or any other sword holding detail) in the text. I don't think there is a single technique in the manuscripts that is impossible or impractical to do without the thumb grip either. Therefore, no, thumb grip isn't a part of Fiore any more than using a crossbow is - both exist at the time and are useful for killing people, neither appears in the actual manuscript. What one Federico Malagutti is using to smack people with swords is therefore not Fiore, but a version of Fiore that was altered and got bits added to it - this is nothing new after all, we have a hundred different traditions of karate for the same reason (not to mention Vadi doing the same thing). It is arguably still Fiore in the sense that modern karate and traditional Okinawan karate are both karate, but it isn't FIore in the "this is the best attempt at recreating at what Fiore the man had in mind when writing his book". And then there is the really interesting question: *why* is there no thumb grip in Fiore? Wasn't it widespread enough at that point to be seen by Fiore yet? Did armor get in the way so Fiore dropped it? Did Fiore teach it as a secret addition to his actual personal students?

[@FedericoMalagutti]

There’s isn’t rhumb grip in Fiore images, that’s what we can say for sure. While I understand the reasoning you make about the H, I also think you take this to an extreme with 0 nuances. Without what we personally put into interpretation, the manuals tend to be just a collection of tricks. Every medieval German Longsword manual would simply be a giant list of things to do against someone who delivers a right oberhau with 0 options against the unbelievably huge amount pf other attacking options the opponent can throw at you. To me, looking at the image in search of this refined bits of anatomy, is something which goes beyond interpretation. There’s not everything on the manual, there’s enough to understand the rest which is missing, but not everything.

[@sandozman6085]

Maybe the artist just didn’t notice the nuance ? The drawing’s really aren’t that great

[@catocall7323]

I would argue that the illustrator for Fiore's manual seems to have skipped the hand drawing class at art school. Seriously, his hands are uglier than medieval cat drawings.