Prophetic Proofs That Jesus is the Messiah w/Jonathan McLatchie

The argument from prophecy seems to have fallen out of favor in Christian apologetics circles. But should that truly be the case? My guest, Jonathan McLatchie, contends that the argument from Messianic Prophecy is much stronger than you might think.

[@ChildofGod98765]

I keep faith even though it’s been a tough three years. Faith will always defeat the enemy. Lord give me strength as a single mother I’m struggling to make ends meet. Both of my sons are special needs and require much from me. So Lord Jesus I turn to you as I struggle to buy groceries, and as I struggle to pay the rent every month. There are many different obstacles that I face. Sometimes I want to give up. But it’s great knowing I can turn to our Heavenly Father he is always there for us. God gives all of us strength to face another day.

[@mikeyant2445]

As someone who has studied this topic for years, I found this presentation to be the most coherent treatment of the subject. I would like a transcript if possible, or if Dr McClatchie has a book outlining these points I would like to buy a copy.

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

You can probably get an AI transcript put together. It won't be perfect, but even KZbin has an automatic transcript.

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

The description allows you to view and download the transcript generated by KZbin's algorithms

[@ConsideringPhlebas]

Good presentation. But the Greek word latrevo isn't used in the Septuagint of Daniel 7:13-14. The word there is doulevo, 'to serve.' That being said, it doesn't really matter because the Aramaic term palach does refer to the service and worship of gods in Daniel, exclusively, if I remember right.

[@ryanparris1021]

As I understand it, there are different renderings of the LXX, sometimes using latrevo , sometimes doulevo. Here’s a critical excerpt (What About the Greek? What about the LXX use of latreuo for pelach? Doesn’t this support the apologists’ assertion? I will admit that latreuo does seem to have attained a specialized meaning of service rendered to God. All 21 occurrences of the word in the NT are in reference to God, and in the LXX, all but one of the 89 uses of latreuo seem to be in reference to deity, unless, of course, Dan 7:14 be excepted. The one unambiguous exception in the LXX is Deut. 28:48…), which if you read the full article, attempts to refute the Diety of the Son of Man in Dan. 7, that uses latrevo. I agree with your summary though. I was just putting out there that the LXX has multiple renderings/words used in places.

[@fernandoperez8587]

Here are two more: 1) God told us Messiah's name would be Joshua/Yehoshua/Yeshua. Zechariah said that the High Priest Joshua (called both in scripture Yehoshua and Yeshua) represents the Branch, the Messiah and he shall do x, y and z. 2) God said Messiah would come during the time of the second temple. The latter glory of this house shall be greater than the former, says the LORD of hosts. And IN THIS PLACE I will give peace, declares the LORD of hosts.’”. - Haggai 2:8 And he [Messiah] shall be their peace.... - Micah 5:5 So when did God give peace at the second temple? There were multiple wars and battles seen during the second temple period in the land. Even the temple met it's end by war. But if the peace refered to here is the Prince of Peace, the Peace of Israel than certainly the coming of Christ to the temple does indeed fulfill the promise of God.

[@ryanparris1021]

This is great stuff. Erik you introduced me to Jonathan M. Some time ago. Thx for that I’m gonna watch this again it’s rich in knowledge.

[@moosechuckle]

This is like a two hour sermon!! Great information my guys. I always love hearing Johnathan’s insights on the Bible and theology . And, although I don’t have many doubts, it’s these types of videos squashes my doubts and feeds my hunger to know God more.

[@user-pe8gm3ht9p]

--- **Title: The Cosmic Genesis: An Ode to the Tree of Life and the Seed of Existence** **Abstract:** This paper is a synthesis of the profound dialogue between the cosmos and the Tree of Life, a narrative that marries the scientific genesis of the universe with the spiritual symbolism found in scripture. It is an artistic and poetic reflection on the origins of all that is, viewed through the lens of beauty and wisdom. **Introduction:** In the beginning, there was a seed-a singularity from which the vast universe sprang forth, much like the biblical Tree of Life, a source of boundless growth and eternal knowledge. This paper explores the parallels between the cosmic seed of the universe and the Tree of Life, interweaving the humility inherent in scientific discovery with the reverence prescribed by faith. **The Seed of the Cosmos:** Just as a seed contains the blueprint of the tree it will become, the singularity held within it the laws of physics that would govern the expansion and evolution of the cosmos. This moment of creation echoes the scriptural depiction of the Tree of Life, standing at the center of the Garden, a symbol of the interconnectedness of all life and knowledge. **The Sprouting of Existence:** From the cosmic seed, the universe unfurled its branches, reaching out across the void. Galaxies, stars, and planets blossomed like leaves and fruit, each a testament to the intricate design and purposeful unfolding of the Creator's plan-a plan that science seeks to understand and scripture seeks to celebrate. **The Virtue of Humility:** In the pursuit of knowledge, both scientific and spiritual, humility remains a guiding principle. It is the recognition that, like Newton standing on the shoulders of giants, we build upon the discoveries and insights of those who came before us. We must eschew the arrogance that leads to plagiarism and embrace the humility that fosters true innovation and reverence for the divine. **Conclusion:** The universe, in its majestic expanse, is a cosmic Tree of Life, with its roots in the primordial seed and its branches stretching into the heavens. As we seek to comprehend its origins and our place within it, we are reminded of the beauty and wisdom that emerge when science and scripture, knowledge and belief, humility and reverence, converge in a harmonious ode to existence. --- This paper serves as a reminder of the awe-inspiring nature of our universe and the humble pursuit of understanding it. It is a call to reflect on the beauty and wisdom that science and faith, together, can reveal about the tapestry of life and the origins of all that is.

[@ProselyteofYah]

My conclusion is that the Servant of Isaiah is 'both' Israel and the Messiah, because the Messiah Jesus 'is'the true Israel within himself as a whole. He called himself the Temple of God (the center of Israel's identity and worship) for that reason. In the NT, Christians are called the "body" of Christ, the New Jerusalem, and the Temple in which the spirit dwells. When we see the OT speak of Israel as a nation, it calls it "God's Firstborn son". As Paul says, the OT laws and institutions were "shadows of a greater reality in Christ". Isaiah often speaks of an individual coming 'from' Israel as to be the servant, this kingly figure of the root of Jesse (throne of David), 'and' Israel. And so both Jesus is the Suffering Servant in the ultimate respect, but his followers (who become New Jerusalem, Jew and Gentile), who also "suffer with him", also become suffering servants in their own right. In him, and with him. Especially the martyrs. So Jesus is Israel embodied, perfectly, and sinless, so that we may enter "his gates" ("I am the door"), and be a part of this great nation in him. As a tree with its vines. But it also means becoming suffering servants with him in the process, carrying our own crosses as he said. As Paul said in Romans 11, all of physical Israel will be saved by the faithful remnant of spiritual Israel, faithful Jews and the Gentile ingrafting, to make "Israel jealous", to that they may follow along with faith and be re-grafted into their own tree again, which is Christ, who is the "true Israel" along with all its conjoined citizens.

[@fernandoperez8587]

Yes, the servant of God of Isaiah 40 and beyond is the nation of Israel as a whole and Messiah Jesus. Righteous Israel within fallen Israel saves fallen Israel and the nations.

[@nathansimma1084]

Why does the Bayesian analysis only consider pieces of evidence in favor of the hypothesis that Christianity is true? This seems like a shaky argument. If you have 0 pieces of evidence that are more likely given that Jesus is NOT the Messiah, or 500 pieces of such evidence, the model given in the video will treat these two situations as the same. @Testify

[@JM-jj3eg]

It is useful because it gives you an estimate of how strong that evidence against Christianity has to be in order to ovecome the case for it. We need both, just like in a court case, you need a prosecutor and an defendant.

[@icosahedron7497]

So is Zechariah 9 only the first coming of Jesus or a mix between the first and the second? Cause if the former, the worldwide peace doesn't fit. And if the latter, then why is there another coming in Zechariah 14? Zechariah 14 prophecises that the Festival of Tabernacles (verses 16-19) and sacrifices of food (20-21) will continue in the future kingdom. How does that work since Christianity stopped those practices? I mean, I guess God could bring them back, but it seems really odd. The Catholic Church even teaches that "the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, (...) after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. (...) they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation." (Cantate Domino by pope Eugene IV)

[@nothingbutthetruth613]

Good question but you only have to point to Zachariah 14 and Christianity already has a huge problem. The "second coming" copout answer to everything Jesus didn't do won't work here obviously so how can they possibly explain this?

[@JM-jj3eg]

The Old Testament doesn't distinguish between the first and second coming of Christ - they are two stages of the establishment of God's Kingdom - the first stage and the last stage. But there are hints of a long time period between the two. So in Nebuchadnezzar's dream, the stone that smashed the statue becomes a large mountain, and fills the whole Earth. There is "growth" process involved, and that is the story of the Church age.

[@icosahedron7497]

@@JM-jj3eg If the OT doesn't tell us which prophecies are about the first coming and which are about the second, then, like, almost anyone can be the messiah! For example, I can say: "Abraham Lincoln is the messiah". You would then rightly point out that Lincoln didn't fulfil the prophecies - for example, he didn't enter Jerusalem on a donkey. But then I can be like "yeah, he's gonna do that when he comes back." So the prophecies become unusable to actually locate the messiah.

[@nothingbutthetruth613]

@@icosahedron7497 Not only are the clear prophecies about the Messiah useless in Christianity, even the ones they claim Jesus actually fulfilled are useless. If a prophecy is unverifiable, it is inherently useless since as you said, anyone could claim to be the fulfilment of it. I climbed a mountain and rode a donkey too. Does that mean I'm the Messiah? Riding on a donkey and being from Bethlehem are not signs to know who is the Messiah since this could be millions of people (nor does the text say this but that's besides the point). Every prophecy that the Messiah will fulfill is always verifiable and every person will look out the window and see the transformed world with his own eyes. There will be no need to have to believe something since it'll all be tangible and obvious

[@JM-jj3eg]

​@@icosahedron7497 Well, it's not so unfalsifiable as that. Suppose there are 200 prophecies, and Abraham Lincoln fulfilled only 20 of them, that would still be impressive, if the probability of their fulfillment by chance or human design is very, very low. Then if Abe says he will fulfill the rest at his second coming, you can't just dismiss it as a copout.

[@morlewen7218]

Isaiah 52/53 does not apply to Jesus. He came close. That's all. "Just as there were many who were appalled at him[c]- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness" Since Jesus could still walk and speak and was identified as Jesus. He did not fulfil the prophecy. The described injuries woul dloead to several brocken bones in the face and the rest of the body. That would even violate a second prophecy: “Not one of His bones will be broken.”

[@margaretrutherford5548]

Wouldn't he be identified as Jesus because he was the one carrying the cross? He could barely walk so Simon of cyrene had to be roped in to help. What has being able to speak for to do with being disfigured? Jesus had been scourged to such an extent it only took him three hours to die on the cross. The extent of the injuries is evidenced by the shroud of Turin.

[@icosahedron7497]

@@margaretrutherford5548 If you accept the Shroud of Turin as authentic, that undermines the prophecy in Psalm 22, because on the Shroud wrists are pierced instead of hands.

[@greenshirtiv4n211]

@@margaretrutherford5548wrists are part of hands btw

[@greenshirtiv4n211]

According to John, the bones were not broken after since he had died and it is said “they pierced my hands and feet”. Now the conversation begins as does crucifixion necessarily cause bones to be broken in half, not come out of place.

[@Wesstuntube]

@@icosahedron7497 I don't have an opinion on the Shroud of Turin, but regardless this point is bad. "My hands" in Hebrew (יָדַ֥י) can equally refer to hands, wrists and/or forearms. English offers more anatomical precision than the Hebrew does here.