[PROS vs. AMS] | Create LAG In Your Golf Swing

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Get your FREE distance injection here: freedrivedistance.com/

[@mariamark2166]

Awesome drill -- can't wait to try it this afternoon!!

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

@@mariamark2166 Let us know how it goes👍

[@mariamark2166]

Was definitely hitting the ball further and more solid -- great drill -- everyone needs to incorporate it in their swing. Can you also reply to my earlier comment about the video re abduction? Thanks!!

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

@@mariamark2166 Sorry, Maria, I must have missed that question. Could you ask it again here?

[@donaldeng88]

@@AthleticMotionGolf &lost4

[@229BlackHat]

Oh yes I loved this episode of weekend update joke swap

[@debaucheryscenes]

lmao

[@williamcranley3885]

I’m at the golf course parking lot watching the joke swap playlist and this pops up like a sign from god. Got the laughs in and also figured out how to get lag in my swing. Thought I accidentally added a golf vid in queue

[@charlesrosen1085]

HAHAHAHAH!

[@aprammus9580]

Me too, me too.

[@pbaviator]

Let me tell you what there is this narrative that youtube is bad for your golf game but this is probably the best video I have seen that has helped out tremendously. I went to a golf clinic where the instructor told me to take my backswing to the 10 o'clock position and rotate my upper body but didn't explain why that works. Fast forward to my next round and I'm slicing every ball as I think I'm doing what he taught me. After I watched this video everything clicked as I was able to correlate the action to the "why" and my next day at the range I had shot after shot that were just beautiful. I was able to correlate the angle to what he was trying to teach me, being the visual person that I am it just clicked. I believe this channel is the single most opening into improving my golf game.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

👊🤓

[@bensugg8327]

I can’t believe how much this video has helped my ball striking. First time on range after watching this, I was instantly more consistent with contact. The more comfortable I get with the slightly different motion at takeaway the more yardage I gain. Especially with mid irons. 5 iron went from consistent 185 to well over 200. I’m a single digit handicap and this is my first ever comment on a video. Thanks AMG

[@bigdumbanimal23]

What a gold mine of information. Right after watching this I went outside and noticed that my left arm was even further across my body than 44 degrees (not the 18 degree Pro limit). I correct this and I immediately felt my swing come together.correctly. I know you noticed this as well, but there is also a major difference in the head tilt between the Pro and the Amateur. The Pro's head tilts forward and the Amateurs head tilts backward! I made that change as well when I swung outside and noticed that I was making crisp, compressed contact! Thank you again!

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Awesome! Great work there👊

[@angeloc700]

These ‘explainer’ videos are amazing. Thanks for sharing!!

[@jgb6802]

So me. Plus my hands are also much higher at that delivery position. No wonder I can't get shaft lean and a bent right arm at impact. The recent Golftec discovery now starts to make sense as well, and/as it can only be done correctly with little left arm adduction. This is probably the most enlightening golf video I ever watched, and I've watched thousands and had hundreds of lessons with top pros and the robot- many, many thanks!

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

We really appreciate the kind words and glad it helped! What's the recent discovery they made?

[@maxcoomer1603]

Thanks guys this video has helped me more then anything I've found in many years I have been a fairly good golfer my whole life with my best handicap a 1. A few years ago I had some lessons and was hitting the ball further then ever. Pro saw in video my lag actually increased in the down swing. Quit the lessons and my distance dramatically decreased over the last 2 Summers. The Pro video my swing to see why the loss in distance about a couple of months ago. Lag was gone. Video looked exactly like the am in the video. He gave some suggestions to help create lag and nothing helped over the Summer. Watching your video I realized my left arm at address was connected to the front of chest rather then side. To get to the top of backswing this forced me to move the left arm independent of body turn to reach the top. I was forced to break triangle and center early in the swing, resulting in little lag Once I positioned the arm so it was connected to the side of the chest. I began to maintain triangle and center and was able to complete my backswing turning the shoulders rather then lifting the arms Bingo instant lag. My hands are arriving at the left knee in the downswing with the club head at 10:00. Previously it had been about 8:00 with the hands about 6 inches short of right knee I practiced the move at home and twice at the driving range. After that I have played 3 times. Let's just say it's a lot more fun hitting a 8 iron into a long par 4 then a 5 iron. It's helped my driving that much Keep the videos coming U

[@fit2yougolf926]

Mike, this was eye opening, and I appreciate the in-depth analysis you did here. I know this kind of detailed video is a lot of work, and maybe not as popular as the other format you and Shaun typically use, but I learn quite a bit from this delivery. Thanks for a really helpful video.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Thanks bud! These are a lot of work to do, but we always learn a lot just in compiling all the data for the videos. So definitely a labor of love🤓 We're glad others enjoy them too!

[@sirwojenheimthethird2268]

This is hands down the most informative golf video I have ever seen; by a mile. Simply brilliant demonstration of the fine lines between ‘OK’ and ‘Excellent’.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Wow, thanks bud!

[@braddiboy]

This video blowed my mind, the best golf video i have seen, and i have seen alott.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

thanks!!

[@MD20-20]

Awesome video. Went to the range yesterday and found, like most ams, that I was doing this exact same thing. After trying not to abduct my left arm, I think that’s what it called, my right elbow was in a better position so it was easier to shallow the club and I was getting better shaft lean. For just the first time concentrating on this I was very pleased. Going to take more reps because it felt like I was taking a half swing and had a lot of miss hits. The journey continues....

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Nice Steve! Let us know if we can help👍

[@62Sketch]

Maybe the most eye opening golf video I've ever seen. I've heard "keep your hands out in front of you" many times in the past, but to actually see just how little pros pull the left arm across the body is staggering. I was a scratch golfer for years with my left arm folded up against my chest and even rapped around my body a bit. Oh what could have been.

[@3rdmillenniumfuture607]

This site is stunning. Quite simply the best insights into the golf swing I have ever seen

[@chrisb594]

Wow! Such a good video, I had no idea how little they moved their arms across the body. On to the range.

[@MrGrease420]

Exactly what I needed. I was putting way to much effort into an extended backswing. Now have effortless power always knew I could produce. Thanks a lot

[@Jman-co7xw]

Because you didn’t give the muscles time to build up or you weren’t using the right ones this video is bs no pro looks like that in their swing their left arm almost reaches their right shoulder. Your never gonna get a 120 mph club head speed without extending your back swing

[@gmoneyyt]

Anyone else from the Michael Che Colin Jost joke swap playlist? lol

[@vincentbyrne3643]

Yes, I was so confused when this video came on

[@weskaplan6341]

AMG is hands down (no pun intended) the best instruction outh there...i have one suggestion...i have been able to implement and physically accomplish 99% of your key knowledge swing concepts (proper pressure and center of mass change, hands faster down from top vertically while simultaneously shallowing club, right arm depth, pelvic angle more descending, etc etc) by Decreasing my back swing by 30-40%!!!!! Just thought id share. It was an epiphany moment...maybe i can slowly add more shoulder turn little by little but today i was hitting my 6i 190 yards with beautiful lower penetrating ball flight and my finish was so controlled and balanced...thanks guys

[@gerardlongobardi7890]

Great analysis. I’ve watched 2 of your videos this morning, and quickly becoming a fan! You’ve got my swing analyzed perfectly…..hips move forward, lag disappears! Good thing I can get it up and down from the truck of my car. Now to fix it!

[@commane21]

Super interesting. Reals vs feels! I was instructed to keep my left arm pinned to my chest a bit longer on the downswing (couple years ago), and it transformed my ball striking. No more fats. Face to path more reliable. No loss in distance -- though probably due to better strike rather than club head speed. It might be, however, that what I feel -- longer connection in downswing -- might in fact result in better angles coming into impact. Will have to do some slow-mo vids face on to see. Thank you for your work and your analysis.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Try to get someone to hold the camera up looking down at about 90º to your shoulder tilt. That'll give a better view of what's happening in this department👍

[@bravo1224]

This is fantastic analysis - I had never even considered lead arm travel angles as a possible data point until now. Can’t wait to incorporate this on the range tomorrow. Thanks!

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Most golfers haven't, but it's made a huge difference to a lot of swings!

[@suntzuvii1154]

Hi there, great vids and great content! One thing I noted is that the Pros all have rotated more than the AM. All the Pros have their lead-shoulder further ahead than the AM, and thus all have rotted their hips more than the Am at arm parallel. Maybe something to look at for the creation of lag. Keep it rolling!

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

One thing we'll cover in a future episode is that most ams rotate more at the beginning of the downswing only to slow it as the downswing progresses, while the pros do the opposite.

[@suntzuvii1154]

@@AthleticMotionGolf Cool, looking forward to that! Thx

[@JonathanPoland]

I think is one of the best channels to watch for strong data analysis to sharpen your game.

[@raddpetersdc]

I really enjoy the gears comparisons you do. It's such an objective measure and like you showed, the more swings you can get, the greater the credibility for your teachings. I actually didn't know you had a paid site. The KZbin videos themselves have been a game changer! Thank you👍

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

We really appreciate that, Radd, we're glad you enjoy these. We always learn a ton during the process of doing them so it's cool to hear others enjoy them too!

[@OpaKnows]

Have played golf over 20 years now, have NEVER heard or seen this information before. I feel like I've just discovered something! That lead arm adduction for pros just blows my mind. What this is telling me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the arms/hands are dropping first, and then at a faster rate than the upper core. Is this correct? I've never downloaded anything off KZbin before, but this will be the first. Is there more great teaching like this on your website? If so, sign me up!

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

C'mon, we have an entire video series dedicated to this topic! You get immediate access when you sign up😊

[@paulweylandgolf]

Awesome video great explanation. And the flight fix series is pure gold

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Paul Weyland 👊🙏🏻

[@chipturner495]

Ok this content alone made me slam that subscribe button! Been looking for this type of detail

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Appreciate that slam, Chip!🙏👊

[@kbkesq]

Agreed. I’ve done k vest etc and came away thinking it was physical limits, yet we know many great strikers who aren’t all that flexible or strong- certainly way less than me. Seems like talent! But I’d love to see a video where you show a student go from before to after. That would sell a lot of subscriptions! I’ve got a 16yo who’s opposite of me- all talent and carries the ball 310 with 125mph clubspeed and carries 7i 190 smoothly but he jumps and does a lot of athletic things that he probably doesn’t need to do to hit it solid and close to his distances. But when someone has talent you don’t touch it. In my case, I need all the help I can get. I’ll buy your course and see if I can come close to these positions! I’m also trying to train impact with DST club and the Impact snap and do find it makes my body figure out what to do.

[@TrumpetBiz]

This video helped me fix my early extension. I had my left arm WAY across my chest. By keeping my hands more in front of my chest, it shortened my backswing, allowed me to release the club later, and get the shaft lean and compression I've been wanting. Thank you !

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

great!

[@FatDivotGolf]

AMG - Question for you about a comparison of the pros vs ams when transitioning from top into downswing. If you look at 9:45 ish here, we see the issue that pro's don't move their lead arms across their chests as much as the ams do - which I think I'm working on improving in my own swing. My question is in the transition - when they start the downswing in earnest - and the body starts to rotate down, does this angle increase for a brief moment before the hands start moving? Seems to me that (I know the sequencing is very tight) but if the hips move, then body, then arms, then its possible that the pros might allow that angle to increase just before the hands start moving down. Non-3D viewing makes it look that way at times, and it sorta seems like it might feel right - that softer arms at the top could mean that the body rotates and slightly increases that angle as the arms haven't moved yet. Thoughts?

[@Brian-wg9wk]

Outstanding discovery, never seen anything like this! Excellent graphical representations.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Glad you enjoyed it, Brian, we hope it helps. Thanks for checking it out🙏

[@bedfordlydon7001]

I really enjoyed your interesting observations and data on generating lag. Do you have any drills to achieve the ideal LAAs? Thanks!

[@robertstader2146]

I'd be VERY interested in that video, as well

[@lendzubow]

Your discussion of adduction and depth is excellent. Too much confusion follows the stress on left arm connection and synchronization in the backswing- having the left arm follow the rotation too far inside. Instructors spoke of "plugging" the left arm into the chest causing the problem you mention. You very quickly mentioned having the chest rotate away from the left arm- that's my next swing thought.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Yeah I don't recall a pro swing that doesn't do that - great catch! No way to get the hands deep early while doing that as well👍

[@Jus10wils]

Very interesting video! I do think it would be cool to do another video where you show the above view arm movement like this WITH body rotation also. It seems like the underlying reason the pros aren’t “working as hard” with their arms is because they are getting depth/energy/speed with more rotation of the body. The am probably is not rotating as much so the arms move more, then the locomotive energy of the arms cause them to flip pass the body. Love the channel!

[@brianfelder5878]

Great content, I'd been missing the old Gears Pro -vs- Am videos.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Brian Felder us too😊

[@andrewclark9556]

You have identified an important distinction between the two swings but have not identified the root cause of the problem . Why is the angle less ? You have to correct the root cause rather than try to correct a number arising as a result of another problem. Is this because the amateur a more arms swing then body and shoulder turn ? I believe that this should actually be referred to as an adduction angle (add... towards the midline)as opposed to an abduction angle (ab... away from the midline). Love all the pro vs am videos

[@m-4478]

Thank you guys for doing something that would cost us viewers so much money to get this kind of information. Tremendous help

[@markhoward1382]

Hi - great to see the ams vs pros comparisons back again! On the down the line shots though as well as the club face difference, the main thing for me and the mistake I fall into, is the the ams shoulders are still closed to target whereas the pro is at least square on at this point. So the am will end up with more of a flip to release as they have not cleared shoulders, hips etc?? Fixing that is the holy grail !!

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Both still have closed shoulders at that point. The big difference with rotation, and one we'll cover in a future episode, is that most ams rotate more out of the top slowing the rotation into impact. The pros tend to do the opposite. So what you're seeing in the frames you mentioned is that happening.

[@aquanautorange885]

why is this in the weekend update playlist lol

[@presidentjames9811]

Lmao same I was watching the playlist and then golf.

[@rickporrazzo2354]

I would love to see a video on LAA. How you obtain a better position! Awesome video,

[@rickmiller8893]

That pro left arm at delivery is deceptive...and amazing. Thanks guys!

[@ulilohrmann1951]

You mentioned there was a difference in ball speeds between the pro and am given similar swing speeds. Was curious how significant that difference in ball speeds is given similar swing speeds and why that is. Love your videos and your comparisons. You guys rock!

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

IIRC, it was 5mph in ball speed.

[@ulilohrmann1951]

@@AthleticMotionGolf thanks. That's significant. The quality of the contact somehow is better - You can hear the difference it's that "pro sound".

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

@@ulilohrmann1951Lohrmann undoubtedly the best sound in sports!😊

[@DerickPaulB]

Another brilliant video, with very detailed explanation! Watched all of their videos now and I'm putting them all together, so I can have the perfect swing - in about 30 years time!

[@colonelcamp]

Great video, guys! I've become a bit of a geek over the last 2 years or so when it comes to swing mechanics. I've learned a ton about this and why things need to happen the way they do (I know I still have tons and tons to learn :-), my buddies are sick and tired of me lol). In regards to the lead arm adduction section of the video, you don't mention much about how to create more shoulder turn by using your hips and legs in the back swing. Not a lot of us are nearly as flexible as Rory and his buddies :-). That might be out of scope for what you're talking about specifically in this video, but for those of us that might not realize how shoulder turn is allowing the pro to move his arm less across his chest, some of us are probably going nuts trying to figure out how the pro is doing this and the amateur is not. My guess is that because there is so much more shoulder turn from the pros (at least 90 degrees and in some cases a lot more) the lead arm doesn't have to move as much across the chest because the chest is rotating back (with the shoulders) along with that arm. Because we amateurs don't typically have that amount of shoulder turn, we tend to move our lead arm back across our chest more in an attempt to create a bigger back swing and get more club head speed (which, as I understand it, actually creates less speed). I suppose it's worth mentioning that a longer back swing, don'e correctly, has the added benefit of providing more time in the down swing to clear the lead side of the body allowing the hands to move in front of the ball. That creates shaft lean and a delofting of the club face, allowing for more compression and distance. There's more to it than that though! I know! It would be great to know your thoughts on my comments. I've learned a lot, but I'm sure I got something wrong here! Thanks guys and please keep these awesome videos coming. Instant subscribe and maybe more. Heading to the website now. :-)

[@JasonCrossno]

I was wondering the exact same thing. i sure wish they would have commented!!

[@1cleandude]

Can’t wait to get home and start working on this! Thanks so much for your time and expertise!🙏🙏🙏

[@ToddSchultzNC]

"You don't have to be fit, you don't have to be young, you don't have to be hyper flexible..." Are you trying to sweep me off my feet, Mike?

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

😂NO 😂

[@ukrobochips8817]

I know right!? They had me at "You don't have to be fit"!

[@philpfeiffer9449]

So this is VERY interesting and I totally get it but I'd like to ask something. I am somewhat of a rare animal. I'm a near-scratch player who survives and manages to hit a lot of decent shots with no lag whatsoever. However, when I "go bad" it's all the stuff you would associate with weak, flippy impact: fat, thin, pulled hooks, lack of power, etc. My instructor, a very good and prominent one, talks constantly about getting the hands up to the ball with the shaft still at parallel. This is exactly what you illustrate in your video, but my guy always talks about it from a RIGHT arm perspective. We're always talking about trying to drive the upper right arm in front of the body. We also talk a lot about other things in the swing that can make driving the right arm in front either easier or more difficult to do. So my questions are: when working on this do you advocate focusing on the left arm abduction instead of driving the right arm? Can you do either and get results? Or, is it something totally different? I understand your answer might be "you have to join the site to get the answer to that", and I may just do that, but I figured I'd ask anyway...

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Great questions! Not knowing exactly how you guys are working on this, I'll just say that aggressively getting the right arm in front is not something we see the best players doing. They're extending the right arm in the downswing. We also don't see this as something that is successfully fixed in the downswing. Anytime we see this issue in the swing, it's always because of how the arms reach the top of the swing. And yes, we do show you how to do it all in the lesson series inside the membership😊

[@itsneverfair]

Hey guys, awesome video. Another one I like to revisit every so often. I have a question about the LAA number at address. It looks like all players have the left arm angled towards the center of the body rather than straight out as would be expected with 90 degrees of LAA. You guys have also shown how the hands are more towards the right side or center of the body at impact, how can the left arm have over 90 degrees of LAA with the hands in that position? How is the LAA angle defined exactly?

[@ianhicken5325]

You guys are in a different league to everyone else,I’ve learned so much just by watching your channel,🖖👊

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Awesome, Ian, thanks so much for watching!🙏💯

[@markhuru]

I have a concept that creates the magic force at impact, I believe it’s all timing, it’s as if the very butt end of the club and left hand actually stops or slows up to let the right hand lever the club, the hands have to be out front , it’s the shaft flexing and springing toward ball. That’s why the best at impact have their hands so far past center as the club head catches up. It’s this spring lever effect culminated with fast delivery that increases speed.

[@kbkesq]

Fantastic study- comparing such similar looking, sized and clubspeed golfers.

[@taechung6498]

I'm confused by the part of the abduction. At the top of the golf swing, you state the left arm is 43 degrees across the chest for amateurs and 18 degrees for pros. But yet in videos of pros I have seen and in some other videos of yours, it appears to show that even with pros, their left arm is almost flat against their chest in the backswing but certainly more than 18 degrees. To only be 18 degrees, it seems to me that your left arm only goes back slightly on the backswing and to the right your stance at address by only 90 degrees. Can you clarify?

[@Jman-co7xw]

Exactly that’s why you can’t listen to a lot of this stuff most of it is made to keep you struggling so you keep coming back for lessons. Pros absolutely have there arm way more across the body than this video. It’s bullshit

[@savannahkorben7353]

@@Jman-co7xw they turn their shoulders/chest more, so the arm doesn't do as much independent movement it's just being carried back by the torso.

[@Ross_Trading]

Watch the shoulder turn video. It’s about shoulder protraction and retraction. Not arm rotation.

[@vonbraun8051]

Great video, but it got me to thinking of a question. Maybe I missed it but, club head speed about the same pro-am? So, if the ball is met with the same force, why it goes farther with the slightly different technical differences. Those differences don't seem to create better club speed but possibly create better contact? Is contact at the sweet spot of the club face be why the pros hit farther and could these technical differences between pros and ams (very good ams) be what creates better contact and better contact translates to farther distance and better accuracy? It's all so very interesting. I find your videos the most interesting and informative.

[@jenniferlee8701]

This was eye opening for me and it really shows why we as amateurs don't have good lag, because how can we possibly catch up if our lead arm abduction is so wide on backswing. Question: how can I get my lead arm in front of where it was ad address on the downswing so my hands are in front of my right leg and not behind it?

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Jennifer, the key is to not move it too far across in the backswing. It's not something that will be fixed in the downswing if that there's just too much ground to cover coming down.

[@jenniferlee8701]

@@AthleticMotionGolf would the proper backswing thought to be just keep the left arm pinned against the chest on the takeaway and just turn my chest back?

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

@@jenniferlee8701 Would definitely not recommend that thought. We've got some more stuff on the way to explain this in more detail, but pinning the left arm gets golfers in trouble on the downswing.

[@jenniferlee8701]

@@AthleticMotionGolf : this is Reggie Lee i'm actually using my wife's google account under Jennifer to reply to your videos. I'm in the Palm Springs (Indian Wells, La Quinta) area do you guys ever get out here? IF so I would love to get a lesson or if not, do you recommend someone in this area that teaches with the gear set up and similar methods as yours?

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

@@jenniferlee8701 Hi Reggie, we haven't been out that way yet, but we are talking to some folks about doing a school out there in 2020. I'll have to look and see who might have a GEARS out that way.

[@manuelfvacas]

This was great. Just went to play today after watching this video. I was trying to emulate the concepts (especially the left arm angle going back, and then cupping the wrists). I havent done any of the drills but my ball striking was a lot better. Thanks for the great content!

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Awesome way to go! Glad it helped👊

[@joythepparath2928]

You guys make the best videos. Love the detail in your explanations. Your videos helped improve my golf swing so much.

[@hirowagu2576]

another WoW! I liked your video about the HIPTURN, and this one. The most important part of the video for me is the fact that the Left shoulder protraction at the top of the swing is much smaller for the Pros. Yes, I think I know it through my experience, but didnt put that importance on. But as lons as the protraction is big, no one can hit like a Pro, then we need to fix it. Plz tell us "How to have smaller protraction at the top of swing"

[@OlleErikssonL]

An idea for another video if you haven't done it already: Given how little the pros adduct their arms, how do the pros still manage to get the club head on plane in the downswing? I suspect one reason a lot of amateurs get their arms way across the chest in the downswing is to shallow the club.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

That's precisely why the pros are able to plane the club - less adduction. And exactly why so many ams struggle planing it. The pros move the arms up and down, ams move them too behind them and in front of them.

[@andersmarthinsen7364]

Wow, now I understand more what lag is, thank you for great work.

[@wviti64]

Valuable insight into the framework of the swing and what it looks like, in comparison. Good stuff!

[@toddms41]

Awesome video, per usual. It's funny how complex analysis leads to simplifies answers. Thanks!

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

It starts with simple pros😄 Thanks bud!

[@zombiehunter1152]

Yeah a lot of people talk about hand position at address or at the top but I noticed Rory awhile ago how half way down his hands are over his right thigh . then the hands more forward of the ball and then the club head starts to release. Ever since then I’ve tried to do the sa,e thing in my swing.

[@anon8095]

Brilliant again. You guys should have the most subscribers for golf on KZbin.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Anon we will if you’ll just get 1 million of your closest friends to subscribe 😁

[@gtbzz85]

First off, excellent videos. I'm having trouble though at 9:01 accepting the angles you have shown for the pro. I've looked at multiple pro top of backswing photos, and the arm adduction angle is certainly greater than 18 degrees. I'm looking at photos of Mcilroy and I can't find one where the angle between his shoulders and left arm isn't at least 45 degrees, i see up to 60+ degrees frequently. Justin Thomas, same thing. Perhaps it's a problem with how the sensors are placed on the body? I have a similar problem at 13:32 - the blue animation certainly does not have a 23 degree angle between the shoulders and the left arm, more like a -10 degree angle. Please help me understand what I am missing. Thank you.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Trying to validate 3D with video is why this issue is such a problem for golfers. It is not possible to see what we're showing here with video. To do so, the camera would need to be positioned at 90 to the base of the neck, shoulder, elbow plane and then move with that plane at every inch of the backswing. Unless you're looking at video from that angle, you're not going to see what is actually happening. With 3D, we are able to do that. In fact, one of the players you mentioned is in this video. That is in fact a 23 angle. The one minute mark on a clock is 6 degrees, thinking that is 10 degrees is way off. More problems and poor concepts have come from looking at video from unknown camera angles as a benchmark for what happens in the swing. Thank goodness there is better technology available to see key elements of the swing as they actually occur.

[@v205]

With the 6 pro diagrams together at 15:20, is their left arm at the outside to the address position during the club at parallel to the ground or is that is that at ball strike? If it is during club parallel to ground, then what is the arm/shoulder angle during impact and after impact?

[@ashtonpaschall3424]

Mike, im wondering about the amateurs hands at club parallel. In the pro vs ams model it is unclear to me of the hand depth. Should we assume that both hand depths are the same distance away from the body? Do you often see the hands getting “stuck behind” the hips instead of out in-front of the body?

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Stuck behind has more to do with height than depth. When the trail arm doesn’t lower enough in the beginning of the downswing, it won’t be low enough late in the downswing. It’s the hands being too high at shaft parallel that has then stuck behind. We typically see ams lower their trail arm less than HALF of what we see the pros do from the top to left arm parallel.

[@BigOilerFan2011]

I would really like to see you demonstrate the left arm positions in the back swing between pro/am. I can't understand how the pro left arm can travel so much less than the amateur's lead arm. Is this because they are getting to the top because of greater chest turn?

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

It has more to do with shoulder rotation than chest rotation, Don. I think a lot of golfers see those as the same thing, but they are quite different. The shoulders can rotate a lot more because they move independently of one another.

[@juanmlarios]

great video. I play baseball and I find parallels in the swing motion. Lag, compact swing and efficiency in the strike zone. Preparing the club face early and maintaining a swing path (baseball) are very similar. It would be fascinating to see a similar breakdown of a baseball swing.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

We know a really good hitting coach who we're trying to get on GEARS and do some videos with. I think a lot of golfers like yourself would really be able to relate😉

[@wreckim]

Yes. It's interesting that it seems the baseball swing is easier to master, but the better you get at it, the better the competition and the pitcher throwing the ball at you. Hence, the speed of the ball in baseball as it approaches tests a different area of our anatomy and brain function: hitting a moving target. That's what makes golf so unique. The ball is just sitting there waiting to be hit. It seems so easy....Not.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

@@wreckim Probably the hardest part about the golf swing... hitting a stationary ball from a stationary start😬

[@johnmccreary1554]

I enjoyed the video. My question is this, the lead arm in pros is about 18 degrees and ams are 43 degrees. Great news only I need to know how to achieve this position. It makes sense that pros have less work to do on the downswing.

[@maxcoomer1603]

Sorry should have read club head at 10:00 when hands are at right knee. Have also found it much easier to get the weight fully shifted to the left front leg on the downswing with club head trailing still trailing at 10:00. Massive difference in driving distance 😀

[@jconner4326]

How do you actually get the angle of your lead arm forward of the address position ? Great video! My question is how do you physically go about doing this Thanks

[@mchristensen63]

Great stuff. I am a "numbers" guy and this very clearly illustrates the concept of lag. Nice work.

[@johnmichel2569]

Fantastic video and information. Do the pros get the same delivery position well into the trail leg thigh for driver as you have shown with the 7 iron?

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Yessir👍

[@Fakefake880]

Should show trailing hand angle (show "cupping" angle) using gears. Would be very interesting

[@povrtsux1]

This is so important. Would love you to explain or show in real swing the shoulder movement of the pro. It feels as a very minimal turn. Or from set-up, just turn till hands reach trailing leg or knee and then mostly arms to the top. Would that be about right? Thanks!

[@gregorysivik5044]

Great video and topic!!! Is the difference between the 18 deg lead arm across the chest for pros vs the 43 deg for armatures due to the pros getting a fuller turn WITH THEIR SHOULDERS and not needing more from their arms where the armatures need to make it up with more arm movement?

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Just the opposite. You can gain a significant amount of shoulder rotation (we see it all the time in lessons) when the lead arm doesn't move too far across the chest. We had a 74-year-old gentleman in the last week who gained 30º more shoulder rotation from only moving his left arm better.

[@chrisbyers1102]

This explained a lot about why I can get 115 to 120 MPH of driver club head speed and only 210 to 230 in carry! I always thought that almost regardless of how you get there,.... club head speed equals distance. Wrong, Wrong , Wrong!. Thank you for the education.

[@mcmilburn2]

Great video! Which iron are the players using in your video? What's the average LAA you see for pros using a driver at the top of their backswing? Looking at images of many pros at the top of their backswing with a driver their left arm appears to be almost pointing backwards. With a relatively low LAA that only seems possible if they're rotating their ribcages/shoulders significantly more than 90 degrees from address. Is that what you've observed when working with pros? Again, thanks for the great video. Very enlightening.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

All 7 irons. Yes, moving your lead arm like this allows for much more shoulder rotation.

[@djp3525]

I remember a video you guys did a few months ago where you split your hands on the grip, raise the the club to 45 degrees to set up, and then turn your chest. Can I assume this will help to get to the proper position of lead arm in the backswing?

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

yep that's a good one for this👍

[@ryanptheriault]

Any chance you remember what that video was called?

[@quaiss007]

Really interesting. Does this relate to some of the hand depth stuff you've talked about? Would be good to do a follow up on how to know if you're making this mistake and how to correct.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

This absolutely relates to "get your hands 45º inside the target line early" hand depth stuff we hear guys being told to do in lessons. That's bad news bears!

[@dukecienda2654]

seems like tilting shoulders on plane, and some right scapula retraction in the backswing will help...

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Rear scap retraction is a big part of it👍

[@swingeasyguy]

At the end of the day is this all about connection, and keeping that tight triangle in the backswing? Thanks. (or having simple short compact swing?)

[@loisbaron7960]

As someone who is technical, for better or worse, this is an interesting video despite perhaps an overload of information for an average golfer. I can handle it. Re the angle on the backswing, isn’t the difference in angles due to the fact that the pro has a greater shoulder turn than the amateur. Many amateurs “pick the club up” and don’t turn enough. You don’t describe what causes this difference in angles. That would be informative I think. BTW, as a woman (single digit but 70), do you have some analyzes of LPGA golfers’ swings? It would be very interesting to compare. With our slower swing speed, especially as a senior, I’m not sure I can get that same lead arm abduction as men might. It’s all about swing speed. No? What are your thoughts? Thank you!!

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Great questions, Lois. Doing what you see in this video is what allows golfers to rotate their shoulders better. We see it everyday in lessons with our senior golfers. They have should rotating because what their trying to do with the left arm and where they think it should be at the top is keeping them from more rotation. We've seen this change produce 30º more shoulder rotation from a 66 year old golfer. He felt like he won the lottery😊. Yes, over the past year we've been collecting more and more LPGA golfers. In fact, in our next Pros vs Ams video, you'll see one of them.

[@jathom21]

I like the video. Do you think this is tied to the feel of keeping the hands in front of the chest and pushing away? When that is my thought, I tend to keep the left arm from crossing over.

[@D-Allen]

Love your videos, but am really confused at the 9:00 mark. Address to top of back swing, to me brings both players arms well over 90 from address, not 18 vs. 31 degrees????

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Maybe I'm not understanding the question, but it wouldn't be physically possible to move the arm over 90 from address to the top.

[@D-Allen]

Athletic Motion Golf- I’m sure it’s they way I’m thinking, but to me, at address the left arm is at 6:00 (on a clock face) and on the back swing it’s at ~ 10:00.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

@@D-Allen I see what your point of reference is now... keep in mind though that that's not because of the arm, that's mainly from the body turn. The arms provide very little depth in good swings.

[@davidcarnicom5635]

@@D-Allen the referenced angle is between the chest and arm. The pro is trying to keep a right triangle between his lead arm chest and teail arm.

[@robsaxepga]

Lately, I've just been feeling my impact position before I start my swing then feel myself swinging my hands back through that location. Works pretty well actually

[@76MUTiger]

Mike, seems the left arm position for the pro MAY be due to a better turn? Is the turn an integral part of why pro's vs. am's have different left arm movement?

[@oahujuniorgolfassociationc6656]

As always awesome. And as always wondering how driver would be a bit different. With driver would the pros hands. W a little closer to where the ams hands are for irons. Therefore less shaft lean with driver for the pro?

[@jdw6580]

Mike, it seems like the amateur lead arm adduction angle is a symptom rather than a root cause. Would you say that the amateur's larger delivery adduction angle might be the result of the amateur's leaning a bit too much with the left shoulder? This might create a situation where the left arm can't "outrun" or release around the left shoulder. On the other hand, the pro has a more rotational motion that allows the lead arm to release better and thus for the left arm to open up past its impact position? Just wondering because I feel as though I sometimes lean too much with my left shoulder, which hampers rotation and results in a pulling across the ball and a weak slice/shank like the amateur pictured here. But if I try to rotate while "containing" the left shoulder, I can more easily release the club.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

We always like to ask the golfer to show how the left arm should move when we see this issue in a swing. We'll have the stand up straight with the chest remaining square so there isn't bias or lean in the equation. They will always take the left arm as far as possible across their chest. When they do that, they get that left shoulder lean. So from best we can tell with the players we see, it stems from what they think the left arm should do in the backswing.

[@KT-ed8hj]

10:00 I thought left arm is supposed to be pinned against chest at the top of the swing? How is this poissible with only 18 degrees?

[@hdanstead]

Hi. This lead arm adduction bit. Is the angle the pros achieve at the top so much less than the ams because they turn their shoulders much more - so their lead arm is much more connected to their torso?? Thanks v much for great content.

[@rickmiller8893]

Is the left arm adduction angle based on the upper arm only? Not to say to bend the elbow a lot, but not hyperextended.. Saying that this is why even with the gears stopped it doesn't appear as if it's past the address at delivery.. Well, that and the angle of the arm to camera.. Kinda like a 90* wrist angle looking like 120* from face on when it's flattened?

[@Concordeagle]

This Gears 3D technology is amazing, and I found a local pro in Houston that has it, but he said he only uses it for club fitting, that it's too much trouble for lessons and you have to put on a special jacket, etc. Do you teach using Gears or just club fitting?

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

We only use GEARS for teaching. It takes about 90 seconds longer to set up for teaching than it does for club fitting.

[@jamesboyce9186]

This is so hard to see on a static picture, do you have a second video showing a person from above swinging like this? for some reason, i have watched this 3 times, and I cant for the life of me get it...

[@danpianki5205]

What's missing in the overhead shots is torso rotation. In the video they're keeping the players' torsos stationary and showing how just the arms move in relation to the torso so you can easily see the movement of the arms IN RELATION TO THE TORSO (i.e. not necessarily in relation to the ball). @athleticmotiongolf Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[@tommoholub]

Great video, though im confused... i was only just watching one of your old myth buster videos regarding "arms in front of chest" and it showed the pro gets quiet a bit of lead arm abduction?

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

In that video around 1:30 Shaun says "he lets that angle contract a little bit." That's exactly right and what we covered in more detail here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you looking at the angle graphic in that video thinking it decreases quite a bit. That's why this has been misunderstood for so long. In order to see that angle correctly, or see the true angle, the camera (your POV) would have to rotate with the shoulder so it stays at 90 to the angle. Then that angle would look completely different. That video was done back in 2016, since then GEARS has updated that graphic and attached the actual real-time angle to it as it moves with the swing. The key point is that unless the camera is rotating with the angle, it will always look skewed from a single fixed camera angle. That making sense?

[@richardnorris7302]

Great tip, I've picked up about 10 yards with a 7 iron since trying this along with a flat left wrist.

[@davidmadras721]

Tip!?!? Umm, that’s what you call an ‘education’ - this isn’t golf magazine.

[@benjamin.kelley]

The LAA is with respect to the shoulders, correct? As the shoulders turn, the arms turn also, but the arms/hands are also translating with respect to the shoulders - from my understanding is that the AMs are "sliding" their arms too far back and as a result have to try and "slide" them past the position they were in at address (like the PROs) but can't because of how little time there is to do so without MORE work.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Yep. They're already doing more work and just running out of time.

[@tyrose24]

So, how do you get the pro angle numbers with the lead arm? Can you do a drill video?

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Yessir, those angles are the lead arm to shaft.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

Tyler Rosenow I’m sorry, I misunderstood you question. We have a whole step-by-step series how to do that (10-12 videos IIRC) along with all the drills inside our membership. Here’s a link if you are interested athleticmotiongolf.com/amg-all-access/?inf_contact_key=5397ad06bcae6e24007ee3618b34662c

[@kramerkt]

Interesting video. I'm curious how you got the lead arm angles to measure address, back swing angle, and impact angle? It is extremely rare to find videos from above the golfer.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

These numbers aren't taken from videos, Kyle. The players have to come in, wear a suit with 26 markers on it (6 more on the club), then make several swings in with 8 high-speed cameras capturing their movements in real-time 3D. You're seeing their actual swings with these images.

[@robertstader2146]

Something I think could be REALLY helpful here would be a comparison of the DTL views of Pro and Am at the top, showing the difference in LAA. And some recommendations on what to focus on, to achieve that. I'm one of probably MANY who've been reaching for too much adduction in pursuit of a "completed" backswing.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

OK great we will do that

[@lafreeway]

My left arm almost touches my chest on my back swing. I know I am an idiot but when I started playing golf, I read an article by Jimmy Ballard about staying connected and I came away with the idea that my left arm should be connected to my chest and I have never been able to change it. I can definitely see myself in the amateur in this video.

[@AthleticMotionGolf]

lafreeway that’s a very common interpretation and intent with “stay connected” unfortunately.