Protein is Not Protein? What I've Learned Debunked

[@MictheVegan]

I had to reupload this video since it had an export glitch and when I pasted the description it messed the travel survey link up! BUT HERE IT IS!: my.trovatrip.com/public/l/poll/micthevegan

[@mitchelfranco5858]

What about anti-nutrient in legumes? Im not against vegans but I'm confused about it. Im vegetarian by the way.

[@RuberSocks]

The sources link got messed up in the description too

[@soilikasanen]

@@mitchelfranco5858 Check that out by NutritionFactsOrg 👍 Phytates have e.g. anti-cancerous abilities.

[@ErnieMayberry]

@@mitchelfranco5858 You just cook them. Or you can eat canned beans which have been pre-cooked.

[@ripcity-7104]

See you at the campout bro!

[@makingapoint]

Just reviewed that study. Its basically vegetariens patting eachother on the shoulder by peer reviewing each others pro plant epidemiological studies. It referal to referal and three referals into studies in you end up at epidemiological studies. Statistical analysis after another from epidemiological studies. They refer eachother in hopes no one looks into it. I only reviewed the dutch people in the study. Niels and Trusy who are/claim also to be both vegetarian but don't disclose their bias in their papers. Once you see it, it takes so little time to look into more of this bs they pull. It is kind of a big finger to the people who died during the low fat studies in the past in the asylums. Very immoral.

[@asdfhgjkl9]

Uric scale is not excess protein being "peed out", if you have protein in your urine, you have kidney damage. So why are stadium urinals caked in uric scale? Uric acid is made when the body breaks down purines. Beer contains very high levels of Purine. When you drink alcohol and no water you become dehydrated. The concentration of Purines is higher in urine when people become dehydrated. That is why.

[@sux666]

Thanks. Mic tends to be "not correct" from time to time :)

[@Elomaniac]

I know right. Urine should NOT have protein, unless your kidney is damaged

[@anagheorghita9548]

Hey Mic, when you said 'excess protein being peed out' at the 3:36 mark, you can't pee out protein unless you have kidney damage/failure as protein in urine is a very bad sign that the kidneys aren't doing their best. That's just a little bit I caught though!

[@khaliffoster3777]

So, the peed out which causes the color to the toilet is a sign of kidney problem so will lead to kidney stone and kidney disease? So, ya are saying it does not pee out since protein is still inside but the process of kidney cause repel of water which causes color comes out as lower water so there is a block of water within as need higher absorb of water to decrease the color of pee, so still, a problem since you are drinking more to counterbalance the color which a marker of a problem with kidney so a block in the kidney?

[@paulo0e]

He says it’s an uric coating on the urinals, so I suppose he’s just shortening his comment and he knows proteinuria is the bad way for the body to eliminate proteins, otherwise such protein excess will always become urea, right? Uric compounds

[@shakaama]

of course, the entire video is a lie.

[@absolutezeromusicofficial]

​@@shakaama What I've Learned's video is, yep.

[@Kuato]

@@absolutezeromusicofficial no, this vegan one is all lies. All you vegans will be changing your tune one day when you reach your health crisis. it’s just weird to see how stubborn you are now, not listening to anyone. Will you remember the voices of reason sounding now when you’re forced to change your ways in the future? Nope, because if you aren’t listening now, how can you be forming a memory of if for later. Your ego is too strong to allow the rest of your brain to listen to reason. That or you’re so mad at how humans treat animals you’d rather slowly off yourselves nutritionally. I don’t even know why we try to tell you. There’s too many humans on the planet anyways, veganism drastically shortening lifespans is a good thing. I suppose it’s just out of avoiding future guilt that we warn you now. Good luck vegans 👍

[@jad3415]

This guy gust proved that a balanced diet of meat, vegetables and carbs is better than a vegan diet alone LOL.

[@dosomestuff1949]

So if I’m a vegetarian, what the fuck Do I do, I just CANNOT build muslcd?

[@jad3415]

@@dosomestuff1949 Sorry, can't help you, since your question is not related to my comment.

[@rampaginwalrus]

@@dosomestuff1949 Just be a pescatarian. Eating intelligent animals is weird as fuck, but eating moving vegetables isn't a big deal. Chickens and fish are basically brain dead, eggs literally are just meat fruit, and they all happen to be incomparably healthier to eat than mammals are. Also, the carbon footprint of all three is also incomparably smaller than for pigs and cows. Octopus might be super healthy, but eating them is still weird.

[@dosomestuff1949]

@@rampaginwalrus I cant eat chicken and fish. Am i just doomed to be skinny?

[@rampaginwalrus]

@@dosomestuff1949 no, just eat a lot of beans, nuts, seeds, whey protein, creatine, and greek yogurt. Even if you're lactose intolerant, you can still eat greek yogurt and whey protein. There's also special "bulk up" powder you can buy at places like GNC, but it's pretty expensive.

[@aidankelley2696]

he didnt say the vegan diet was bad, he just said, its much harder and is not very effective at hitting the amino acids required to break down the protein properly since plants lack a lot of the amino acids required, so it requires a lot of mixing around of other different proteins to hit those metrics, which for the average person, they arent doing that

[@Quincycle]

He's said it's bad on many of his other videos

[@michakrzyzanowski8554]

@@Quincycle why does that matter? He's discussing this video, not the other ones

[@CorolaImperial]

Plants dont lack of those amino acids, they have different levels of them, that's why in a well diverse diet, all the aminoacids are in the levels we need.

[@mythicaltyrant7476]

It's literally doesn't

[@maverick5335]

​@@CorolaImperialCompared to meat they're absolutely lacking. I lack the strength to lift 1000 pounds like Eddie Hall, that don't mean I don't have strength. Lack and without are entirely different my friend.

[@thedebatehitman]

Protein: a topic that is seemingly most relevant to any discussion on veganism.

[@holmybeer]

I just would like to add something: For a lot of these studies about red meat and chronic diseases we have to put in perspective that some of them aren't just because of meat, but because of the hormones and heavy process used in the process. I'm not a nutritionist, but my family is almost 100% farmers, and we had a lot of talks showing how bad those things are for human health. And this includes non-organic plants too. You get a lot of heavy metals just by eating some fruit that was grown using agrochemicals. There's a hight correlation of mass usage of those chemicals and multiple disease like cancer. The early development of woman teenages you cited, a considerable amount of this is to blame artificial hormones. About renal disease, sugar is also water soluble, and cause renal problem. I'm not American, but I hear that they have a high carb diet and a sedentary lifestyle, if you don't burn this, some will go out in your urine. At the end of the day, nutrition is a complex thing, and no bold statements can be made. In multiple cultures, people have been eating meat and plants forever and they are doing just fine (me included). The best diet is the one that makes you feel better. I think the only thing we can say for sure is: organic food should be preferred

[@Sanderskc]

Wow. I love this! I wish more people got to see your comment. I found his video a little unprofessional in his assertions because the other video makes it clear that plant protein are a suitable option, you just have to eat more of it. its all about the individuals golas and what makes you feel best and this me vs them approach is very irritating. Nutrition is SO complex, and there cannot be one answer as humans are a diverse group of people. thanks for your opinion, a lot of people dont actually have exposure to people who are in food production.

[@CecyGzz]

Most vegans I've met, always tired despite eating big dishes of legumes and watching me going smooth with my meat protein. That alone speaks clearly to me.

[@reza310]

I am a pharmacist and a biotechnologist and not an expert in diet ! But you have to understand proteins are made of 20 amino acid out of these some are essential amino acids as we don’t produce them ourselves and some are more needed than others . Unfortunately to popular belief not all you eat is absorbed and as you might know plants amino acids absorb less as some are entrapped in fibers or they are glucoronized in away that utilizing them are not possible for humans . This is a different story for meat! Thats why you see animals eating plant have to eat multiple times more than a carnivore animal to get the nutrition they need . This applies to minerals as well . You can look up Iron absorption rate as an example . I am not saying being vegan is bad , i am just saying the fact that you are vegan doesn’t change the reality of science .

[@maverick5989]

Lol.. u see nobody is responding to you? Cuz it’s always feelings over facts. Good job pointing it out.

[@patrickracing1]

One small ship of sanity in an ocean of ignorance.

[@princedoge4586]

It is true not all you eat is absorbed. Its why the content of consumption is often reflected in stool samples and not uniformly standard. However, from what I'm aware of, the concepts behind fiber's function in the digestive tract is that it actually serves both to increase time spent in the intestines (by slowing traversal) as well as decreasing absorption speed. It is not actually as 'entrapped' as you suggest, as during processing it is chewed. A more accurate depiction is that fiber proportionally reduces absorption, not necessarily reducing absorbtion heavily in specific amino acids which is likely how people are interpreting your statement. An argument can be made about how proteins can bind, and as you mention proteins being glucoronized (a relationship I am unfortunately not familiar with, so I will not contest), but this is not reflected by outcome data to effectively negate said dietary pattern. Furthermore, it is a very well known phenomenon within the vegan community in regards to bio-availibility and food pairings, such as in regards to iron, (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20226993/) where for in vivo studies with rats, " The presence of both garlic and iron led to a 2-fold increase in plasma iron and a 50% increase in liver iron as compared with iron alone". There is also the theory of pepper increasing overall absorption by agitating the intestinal wall, allowing easier passage through the intestinal barrier. Furthermore, the dietary pattern again does not reflect broad trends in literature reviews (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8003004/)--"In conclusion, although the participants were eating a plant-based diet, the majority had sufficient iron status. Female vegans and vegetarians of reproductive age are at risk of low iron status and should have their iron status monitored". I should mention however, that I have seen studies that do show an elevated risk among plant-based dieters. The common trend however is that they are fruitarians or raw food dieters. Secondly, yes carnivores often do not need to put in the work of metabolizing plants, and often in pure volume require higher levels of consumption. However, this is because they process plants, and must break down cell walls through manual grinding in addition to lengthy gastro-intestinal processing. Being facetious here, humans cook food. I only stumbled across this video from KZbin recommendations, and am surprised people are still disagreeing years later.

[@princedoge4586]

@@maverick5989 unfortunately dear maverick, nobody responds because this is an old video that covers a topic that vegans have had to rebuke time and time again. Again, I urge you to review the literature on this issue and understand the hierarchy of scientific evidence, which lists mechanism below epidemiological data in regards to outcomes. That is to say, understanding a small mechanism within the biochemical process does not in fact predict its final result.

[@speeddemonji9547]

@@maverick5989t. “ ha ha I’m totally not doing the same thing.”

[@albertfralinger2711]

Can you please provide details of who funds the studies you source just like you do for the studies you critique? Thanks!

[@nizahe2731]

You can do that, boy. If you want to be that legit - go check it out for your own.

[@Quincycle]

He often cites conflicts of interest

[@gustach6167]

as all vegans he use "trust me bro" source about all topics in his life

[@janeslater8004]

Check out dr ecclestyn if you really want to know as he uses studies that he refers too also plantchompers is excellent at showing studies.

[@Darckfire43]

@@gustach6167 all vegans? have you checked all of them?

[@amitgupta25121993]

Potato has 2gm protein/ 100g. 100 gm potato is 77 calories. To get just 40 gm protein from potato one needs to eat 1500 calories. You wanna go obese, that’s how you go obese.

[@cydeYT]

Why are you cherry picking certain foods. Legumes are much higher in protein, vegan protein powder and other sources.

[@JustSomeGuy009]

@@cydeYT lol vegan protein powder. That's funny. Showing how you don't know what you are talking about.

[@cydeYT]

@@JustSomeGuy009 I’m talking about protein content in foods. Legumes and vegan protein powders are higher in protein than potato.

[@skatingsarah1996]

Will you talk about the weird “anti vegan ancestral eating” side of “holistic” eating and debunk all these people that are obsessed with raw milk and liver and organic meat? And think we “need” cholesterol and saturated fat so when you tell them animal foods are high in both they’re like “good” 💀💀💀

[@mizz308]

Yes I’m waiting for that one!! 😂😂

[@sierrahemp8682]

THIS. this community has gone off the rails

[@skatingsarah1996]

@@sierrahemp8682 “nooo you need liver for RETINOL vitamin a not BETA CAROTENE” 🤣🤣☹️

[@soilikasanen]

@@skatingsarah1996 Preformed vitamin A isn't even a vitamin by defenition of vitamin... Retinol causes oxidative stress and rises the risk for osteoporosis and ATTR, wild type amyloidosis. Carotinoids are vitamins by definition that we can't produce them ourselves.

[@fieldofreeds8581]

Yes the raw dairy thing in particular!!

[@thrrax]

Bottom line is: people's bodies do not respond the same to the same food. That being said, animal protein is still the best source of protein out there.

[@montycora]

@dyldabeast9176 - Brainwash by science??? In dietetics we learn that meat has 70% of its protein absorbed, legumes, 60% and the rest, 50%. You can say all you want that being vegan is more ethical, it is good for the planet, it is morally right, but claiming it is healthier, it is a bit of a stretch.. I am a dietician, it is not... it is a diet that I highly admire whoever follows it, because when you cut an important food group of food out, you remove a lot of important nutrients with it. We do not absorb plant nutrients as well as animal sources. You have to eat triple to hit the same target. I wish vegans would understand this. The vegan diet has one and only purpose, protect animal lives from suffering and pain. That alone is just enough. There is no need to mask everything with the "healthy" label, because it is not. A healthy diet comprises all food sources animal and plants, combined they are just perfect.

[@clyde1052]

Straw man arguments about hospital wings being full, false dichotomies, and Pokémon jokes, are not convincing.

[@michaels2208]

I recently decided to go to a plant based diet. I talked to a nutritionist at the VA. She was supportive and said as long as I knew about beans and soy products she wasn't worried about protein. Normally she said that was her concern.

[@Mare0912]

So... some people do not know that beans exist or what?

[@bstring3967]

@@Mare0912 I think she is being playful referring to vegans who eat seitan and mock meats almost like they don’t know soy and beans exist, at least I hope so because otherwise yes that would be almost insulting lol Veganism can be a hard sell so to encourage people what people do is they offer a sort of leniency, while in reality soy is shit(look into George Washington carver and it’s history) and beans in general are not good for humans. some may be able to get away with it while others like myself cannot at all. My Hindu friend finds that he can’t do vegan and he was born vegetarian, he says that ghee really helps the digestion and using a pressure cooker........ for someone who has a long lineage of vegetarians in his family this doesn’t sound very “natural”, I look exactly like mic the vegan and after 15 years of veganism my digestion became horrible, I stuck with it as long as I could...I tried a million things and learned so much but still couldn’t do it.

[@mattstiglic]

@@bstring3967 "beans in general are not good for humans"? Do explain.

[@artsomniacv-logcitybydanie1249]

A lot of beans give me problems and so does soy. seeds nuts and other forms of protein are availible

[@helenalovelock1030]

Beans and soy!!! 😂😂😂

[@GuacamoleKun]

Nearly on year 7 of doin my best to be out in the world advertising my muscles as a vegan... You know, the muscles that haven't shrunk at all even though I haven't eaten any animal products in 7 years.... I'm sure they'll melt off any day now. It's funny how people are still worried, still ask me about protein, still think they'll lose muscle. Like, use your eyes, I don't have body dysmorphia, I know my arms are nice. Anyway it's heartening to hear 40% of the US doesn't eat "enough" meat.

[@soilikasanen]

Muscles, bones and brains evolve by using them.

[@jasminejohnson8051]

@@soilikasanen no. Lol

[@soilikasanen]

@@jasminejohnson8051 Why do you think ppl go to gym then? To grow muscle. Weight bearing strenghtens bones. Brains loose their capacity if they are not put to work. Better move and think!

[@jasminejohnson8051]

@@soilikasanen my apologies, upon re reading I see now that I misunderstood your previous statement. I thought you were trying to say our muscles bones and brained evolved by using them(as in eating animal products). I apologize, and agree with what you said. Have a nice day

[@soilikasanen]

@@jasminejohnson8051 No worries 😊💚

[@thehealthofthematter1034]

Debunked? Debunked WHAT exactly? The only take away from WIL video is simple: omnivores have an easier time fulfilling their protein needs, as in, it's less complicated. Why get so damn pissy about this simple fact?

[@chimp09]

How about the very first claim from WIL as an example: about 40% of the US population doesn't meet the minimum protein requirement. That claim is completely false and debunked in this video.

[@heshamaldhahiry95]

Went full vegan for 2 months and felt great, in the end you'll feel great if you eliminate heavily processed foods. But in terms of weight lifting for me personally, meat and raw dairy products have proved dividend for my performance in the gym. To each their own.

[@fmartin59]

Sounds like you need more protein from grains and lentils.

[@DirectorHMAN]

​@@fmartin59grains are not good as a source of protein, their protein is gluten, you might have heard of it, 75% of people are gluten sensitive.

[@Keppie6]

Yes the amount of strong vegans is pretty telling.

[@TheSpecialJ11]

​@@fmartin59Grains have way less protein than people give them credit for. Legumes rock, though.

[@atomiclemon77]

It's so odd when I see you quote studies that are at odds with my personal experience. I eat alot of eggs and red meat. My CRP is as close to 0 as you can get and my LDL is lower than yours. I guess it just shows that different people tolerate different diets.

[@jingtroc23]

Literally it's stated everywhere that animal protein is better absorbed, better accepted etc.. it is superior. You only have to look it up, there's thousands and thousands of sites that site this fact.

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

"Literally it's stated everywhere that animal protein is better absorbed, better accepted etc.. it is superior. You only have to look it up, there's thousands and thousands of sites that site this fact." And speaking as a researcher who studies how people get fooled about healthy nutrition, those sites are misleading you/wrong. Research clearly shows that when you follow people for long periods of time, replacing animal protein for plant protein yields markedly better health outcomes--after controlling for other variables. This is well documented, whereas higher consumption of animal fat and protein ramps up virtually every known non-genetic disease. So how did researchers and pundits get it so wrong? In a nutshell, they made many of the same mistakes WILs' video did. First, you can't just judge the quality or healthfulness of this or that protein based on the bioavailability of EAAs. Animal foods on average have more harmful health effects and fewer beneficial health effects than do whole plant foods. Compared to eating whole plant foods instead, meat in particular ramps up rates of many different diseases. Second, judging the value of "eating plant proteins" cannot be done while just judging the global DIAAS score for an individual foods. One problem is that the way the DIAAS treats nitrogen means it underestimates the EAA value of plant foods and overestimates the EAA value of animal foods. Another problem is that people who eat plant based usually eats LOTS of different protein-containing foods, and the EAA strengths of one food counterbalance the EAA weakness of another plant food, rendering the already-strange DIAAS global score moot and useless/deeply misleading. I'm just eating lunch now and so far my vegan diet has included at least 15 different foods that contain protein. For every amino acid, there are multiple plant foods with DIAAS scores over 100, and for all but one amino acid there is at least one plant food with a DIAAS score over 110, so when you eat a variety of plant foods, it is quite easy to meet all your amino acid needs. If you just eat potato chips, candy, and beer, THEN you'd have a problem. Third, research clearly shows that it is the AMOUNT of protein you eat--not whether it came from plants or animals--that determines its effects for building muscle. Interestingly, those who don't eat meat have been found to have better endurance, FAR less toxic chemicals in their bodies, and to have arteries that dilate four times as well as those of meat eaters. One should focus on WHOLE plant foods to be truly healthy, but the case against eating lots of meat just keeps getting stronger and stronger. Take care.

[@paulmaxwell8851]

It's easy to trash DIASS, which is a sincere effort to understand and rank protein sources, many of which are less than ideal. It's certainly better than the old PDCAAS system we relied on for years. Unfortunately, it seems some people expect perfection from DIASS. There are obese Americans who protest that the BMI score is less than perfect too, but perfection isn't possible. BMI is still an excellent way to rank body weight, even if it doesn't work for fit, muscular people (sadly, a small minority).

[@paulmaxwell8851]

I've done more reading on DIASS scoring, and I was wrong. Mic is right. DIASS scoring is animal-protein biased, and appears to deliberately downplay the value of plant-based proteins. Unfortunately, the meat and dairy industries have a lot of clout and have been successful in distorting the true picture. I say that as a meat and dairy consumer. Mic is increasingly good at making me question my dietary choices.

[@mincelamon1680]

​@@paulmaxwell8851 ah yes, Because one thing is significantly more than another it must mean bias. I guess they have an anti-rice bias too because rice is downplayed in dciass scoring.

[@NiranjanBendre]

I have not heard of anyone having protein deficiency but many who have diabetes, obesity, heart disease etc.

[@NiranjanBendre]

@Aaron Loos which is not protein deficiency which is the topic of the video. Also causes might be same but the rate is quite different.

[@robertcohen8554]

Damn straight!

[@soilikasanen]

@@NiranjanBendre Well said - I guess you've seen Dr Michael Greger's lecture How Not To Die and read the studies 🤓👍

[@NiranjanBendre]

@@soilikasanen certainly! 😅

[@kyokoyumi]

Which is what carbohydrate consumption causes (diabetes, obesity, heart disease etc). As someone who is genetically insulin resistant, I can attest to the fact that I feel a whole lot better on a ketogenic/carnivore/zero carb diet than I ever did when I was eating the "standard american diet" (or when I was vegetarian/vegan because I did that, too). At the same time, something like that can be an individualistic situation and it can also be a food quality issue. There are a lot of plant based oils that are just straight up bad for you. I suppose the biggest thing I've learned from my weird journey is that if you eat nose to tail with animal foods and you make sure they're humanely sourced (i.e. directly from the farmers who love their animals) you can easily meet all of your dietary needs. A quarter of liver contains all of the vitamins and ammino acids you need for a week. That's one liver a month lol. The rest of the meat would follow, realistically. The biggest issue america has is that they throw away all of the "undesirable" parts of animals that can still be eaten. They are also squeamish about eating other sources of proteins in the form of insects and even other animals (like stray cats and dogs or shelter animals that have to be put down because they couldn't find a home). If people got over their weird aversion to eating insects, cats, and dogs, we could easily reduce the amount of factory farming done which would make everyone happy.

[@donniemoder1466]

Appreciate you doing this even though it is repetitive for you. Keep up the fight.

[@sardeegaming]

0.8-1.3G of protein is the best depending on your goals but 0.8g will ensure you keep muscles if you are trying to lose weight

[@fernandomorales4691]

You can`t say plant proteins are superior. when a 6 ounce steak has about 42 grams of protein with a complete amino acid chain. you got to eat about 50 ounces of broccoli to get the same amount. Plus you got to eat some other vegetable with it in order for you to get all essential amino acids. giving the only downside to eating meat is some inflammation and an increase risk of disease. Can`t be that bad considering you don`t need to eat as much since meat is so nutrient dense. It is safe to say most people eat way more meat and animal products then they truly need on a daily basis. It has been proven that diets like Mediterranean ones are very healthy and have low risk of any of these problems. As we are omnivores after all with similar digestive tracts to pigs, it quite eerily weird how similar our biology is to that of a pig. Cannibals have been known to claim humans taste like pork, one tribe calls humans long pig.

[@CollagenExpert]

This out of the blue, but do you think ppl who practiced Abrahamic religions knew something about pigs tasting eerily similar to that of a human. And that’s why they condemn it?

[@fernandomorales4691]

@@CollagenExpert I think it is highly possible. I have come to similiar conclusions as well.

[@spinachtriangle]

‘What I’ve learnt’ still stuck in his meaty universe. Am sure he has a couple of sponsored freezers filled with flesh. Love the word ‘meat-case’ classic. Always look forward to yours and PlantChompers’ debunks. Just facts no shit.

[@SuperKlode]

Don't know if it is just me, but the travel link doesn't work :( But with that said, nice work on debunking the claims that plant proteins are inferior, and as always, thx for sharing insights in how to better the vegan diet, which is indeed the best all-around diet, especially when you eat a variety of foods, as is natural but still nice to know ^_^

[@MictheVegan]

I FIXED IT! Thanks so much for letting me know: my.trovatrip.com/public/l/poll/micthevegan

[@CoachBriceWilliams]

Very nice. I enjoy coming to your page for updated bookmarks for lecture materials.

[@Sukidezu]

Seems like eat less meat is what i got out of this

[@E-Nigma_]

I don’t understand the extremism of both camps. Eat a variety of foods that aren’t processed and you’ll be fine. Meat doesn’t cause cancer, eating majority plants won’t cause malnutrition. Over indulgence of any food group will cause issues. Industrialization of food has made eating anything less healthy due to contamination (meats) and disruption of ecological processes (demineralization and bacterial disruption of soils [veggies]). Lastly, the science is clear, over consumption of carbohydrates WITHOUT adequate exercise will kill you through hyperglycemia. Eat a balanced diet and don’t overeat meats/carbs(grains). Fast occasionally. It’s good for the body. Extremism is always bad.

[@TheForbidden0ne]

If someone can convince me we are inferior to the animals we eat, I'll become vegan.

[@vidyamancer7135]

@Shimmy Shai Because that's how nature works.

[@TheHopefulOneMyBroA2C4]

@@vidyamancer7135 Interesting logic.

[@levmast]

Thank you for this video! WIL's videos teach me how easy it is to cherry-pick data for an argument, lol.

[@deepakhiranandani6488]

Very good, thanks. I commented with my other identity, but another point occurred to me: many people, perhaps slightly more so here in India, demonise potatoes. So it's good to hear your endorsement of them from the protein aspect. I make sure to eat some potato every day: I know they have their benefits and I like them. The famous study from Israel showed that of all foods studied potatoes were the most satiating. Of cpurse, they would be good in a mixed diet, though people have lived on just potatoes for long periods. Even here in India, simple delicious less costly plant foods like potatoes, bananas and legumes are feared and/or despised by many, considered inferior, fattening or gas causing. People are dazzled by animal food generally, chicken, paneer (cottage cheese), cheese, meat... sigh. So it goes. Anyhow thanks for another impressively researched and analysed video and a necessary one.

[@ooseven4696]

ayo mate, where in India, I live in Delhi and there seems to be a love for potatoes, Aloo-matar, aloo tamatar, and stuff, dum aloo, there is no shortage of potatoes, Also the potato is the perfect vegetable since it comes in the proportion that should be eated, a fist. It's like nature's most optimal vegetable. Potatoes and Pea with Wheat Roti, perfectly complete food, and cheap, very cheap

[@rob6144]

Potatoes are one of the healthiest foods on the planet! Look at Spud fit on youtube, he was fat and sick, after eating only potatoes for a year, he gets slim and healthy.

[@deepakhiranandani6488]

@@rob6144 yes, I've seen his videos, Australian person I think. Others too, subsisting on only or mainly potatoes.

[@elpretender1357]

Quick question, but the reason people in India don't eat potatoes is religious reasons? I recall some have religious reasons to not eat onion and garlic as well

[@MictheVegan]

Yeah I'm sad that Ayur Veda thinks they are tamasic or whatever.

[@unknown_feature]

I understand that those would be just claims of a random person. But I followed wfpb diet for an 8 months. I was very motivated and strict. Every day I was feeling mentally and physically worse. I was anxious and irritated. I wanted to eat all the time. Beans made me so bloated that it hurt. I lost one third of my hair. And I did my investigation. In order to get all the recommended Ca from kale, you’ll need to eat it as much as it will suppress the thyroid. And that’s what happened to me. I gained weight over these months. Even though I wasn’t eating refined sugars. Now I’m on keto. The only plant food that I eat is a few tbsp of almond flour and sunflower butter. My energy levels are higher, I sleep better, my waist line dropped to the level of the way it was when I was 25. My skin is glowing. I’m more focused. I do believe that vegan diet could be good for some people. Like keto. It’s a spectrum. Every person has to listen to their bodies.

[@Savantjazzcollective]

This is not debunking, you cannot sight a study then possit without évidence the faults in it. It is well established that meat protein is more "bio available" as the protein recepters are not out competed by a bunch of surperfluous molecules surounding the actual protien molécule as plant protein has.

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

No, this video quite methodically debunks the claims WIL made AND demonstrates the health problems caused by eating a lot of meat.

[@Savantjazzcollective]

@@HealingLifeKwikly nope, there are no studies that show meat is harmful, zéro. Observational studies have been done of people self reporting, that is it. There are zéro, let me repeat, zéro interventional studies that show meat is harmful in anyway. If there are any , i am happy to have a look.

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

@@Savantjazzcollective Speaking as a researcher, here is a point regarding quality research that confuses many people. Randomized controlled nutrition studies can usually only be three years long at most but major chronic diseases develop over 10-70 years. Thus, good observational studies are the correct and superior research design for studying nutrition and most aspects regarding rates of chronic diseases from different diets. Randomized controlled studies literally can't be conducted to answer those questions. And good observational studies clearly and repeatedly provide diets dominated by whole plant foods are healthier overall in the long run. RCTs DO show harmful effects of things like saturated animal fat in the short run (inflammation, insulin resistance, raising LDL levels), but it takes the longer term studies to tell us whether and how that translates into more disease. Take care.

[@Savantjazzcollective]

@@HealingLifeKwikly 1stly) many long term observational studies have been done in past years with varying results. For example European long term studies vs Asian long term studies. The result? Asian consumers of meat lived longer and European eaters of meat lived shorter lives. Why is this? What about healthy/unhealthy user bias? Do vegans eat often at fastfood joints? probably not, I think its because they are already cognisant of their physical health, where as typically overweight Europeans don't care. 2ndly) We have very few quality observational studies (self reporting) and the studies that might have quality data show that eating less has the biggest affect, not what we eat. I just cannot put my faith in the usual narrative, when people are only getting sicker not healthier as it relates to reducing meat consumption. Carbs and oils are the problem imo. all the best.

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

@@Savantjazzcollective When you control for other factors, including SES, high red and processed meat is consistently linked to poorer health and greater mortality. The only place you find the reverse is in places where people were literally malnourished, and the meat filled some gaps. However, that is not the situation in developed nations. "What about healthy/unhealthy user bias?" This is controlled along with lots of other background variables. Furthermore, experimental studies have revealed many of the mechanisms by which more meat and more animal fat causes more disease, including promoting inflammation, insulin resistance, raising LDL/promoting plaque formation, toxic chemicals found at high levels in animal fat, and so on. "We have very few quality observational studies" There are about a million nutrition studies a year, and plenty of excellent observational studies amongst them. "I just cannot put my faith in the usual narrative, when people are only getting sicker not healthier as it relates to reducing meat consumption. Carbs and oils are the problem imo" Unfortunately, the research is very clear that many factors drive disease, including more saturated animal fat, more added sugars, more animal protein, more refined carbs, more oils, and more chemicals the body didn't evolve to process. It is ALL of the above and we have excellent research showing that. But you have to differentiate between healthy and unhealthy carbs to have any shot at understanding healthy nutrition--eating lots of refined carbs make you get sicker but eating lots of whole food carbs (truly WHOLE foods) is super healthy. Take care.

[@Samuel-bu7xr]

Good video Mic! My issue with the protein comparison that's everyones favourite discussion point right now, isn't actually anything to do with protein, but the often made comparison between highly processed, plant based fake meats (impossible, beyond et all) and animal food sources. I don't touch those highly processed fake 'plant based' foods, and I'm not a fan of the continued expansion of plant based processed slop - it opens up a not so weak argument that animal foods are superior from a health stand point. Whole food plants for the win.

[@tamcon72]

Most of the plant-based analogues are not slop: They are carefully formulated to be higher in beneficial micro and macro nutrients, and lower in the less beneficial or harmful ones. They are _designed_ to be superior to animal proteins to directly compete with them. I think we are lucky to have so many different foods that can compete with dead animal.

[@Samuel-bu7xr]

@@tamcon72 are you serious? Or is that just what you've read and want to believe? Just for starters, research isolated proteins, pea, soy etc. I'd love to hear an argument for the health benefits of canola oil also. I'm not a nutritionist, I am however a doctor, and I don't recommend fake meat to patients. Whole foods are undeniable carriers of inherently better nutrition for your body. As for plant based fake meats being designed to be superior nutritionally, the CEO of Impossible has stated several times that the hierarchy of needs for their products is: Replicates the taste, texture and appearance of real meat. Go figure.

[@tamcon72]

@@Samuel-bu7xr I'm a trained cook and I am basing my estimation on the ingredients and nutrition profile of new gen analogues. Also, the CEO of Beyond Meat has stated what I did, as has the CEO of Impossible on other occasions. They are improvements on animal foods. Certainly, many analogs are high in sodium and saturated fat, so a doctor should not be recommending them, but they are almost without exception lower in these less beneficial components than the animal version, so a better choice than those. I am not comparing them to whole plant foods, which I favor.

[@Samuel-bu7xr]

@@tamcon72 agree to disagree. I'd recommend fish over Beyond or Impossible meat to a patient. Whole plant foods we agree are great

[@tamcon72]

@@Samuel-bu7xr You'd recommend an animal filled with pollutants, including neurotoxins, over an analogue product synthesized from whole plant foods? I'm beginning to doubt your earlier statement.

[@pedromiranda1000]

I am glad you made this video as I saw this video a day ago and it really anoyed me how he bends the "facts"

[@davidsgardell]

21:50 I was diagnosed with MS in 2002, at the time I was a vegetarian, eating a lot of eggs - and dairy products. I was vegetarian "for the animals", but calorie-wise, I just swapped the flesh for more eggs and more dairy products. I've been symptom free from around 2005, when I went vegan. I heard about the dairy / MS connection over a decade ago, at first I didn't think much of it, since my doctor told me "food has nothing to do with it"..... But I have since then read more and heard several stories from people with MS, that their symptoms are either gone or much better.

[@eulalia3446]

I had the opposite experience. After several years on a whole foods, home cooked vegan diet my previously benign MS became very aggressive (and I experienced numerous other health problems too). When I went back to eating animal foods, my health improved dramatically and I now have had no relapses for more than 10 years.

[@salsspar2132]

@@eulalia3446 it just goes to show we dont know much about the disease and if a diet works for you stick with it but dont preach to others the qmway you eat is the solution. autoimmine disease is complicated and the gut is complicated, where big portion of our immune sytem is at. even gut microbe experts dont evrrything about gut bacteria and they tell you otherwise they lieing. the one thing i hate about these diet studies is that people take them as fact. in science its hard to prove anything and that ia why academics usr words like association and etc. think math. x and y. x increasing doesnt mean y has to increase. and etc

[@kellyschlumberger1030]

Vitamin B-12 deficiency mimics MS symptoms. B-12 is only (naturally) available in animal sources, and long-term lack is fatal.

[@salsspar2132]

@@kellyschlumberger1030 true. but takes long time to deplete b12. this is what my doctor told me when i asked for my b12 levels checked. but i could be wrong. and your right b12 deficiencies do act like ms and i heard it puts you at risk of developing into ms as well if sucetiable

[@NikiLivi5]

Check out Dr. Brooke Goldner. She had lupus and has basically cured an incurable disease in herself. I have lupus and RA so I’m trying to change my eating to mostly vegan and do her green smoothies. I don’t know a lot about MS so I’m not sure how much it could help but I know it will help some. I can tell when I eat processed foods and when I eat healthy foods. I’m just trying to find ways to eat healthy and make it easy and convenient. When I don’t feel good I’m bad to just grab something to shut my stomach up. And that usually doesn’t end up being anything good for me. I also don’t enjoy cooking. I can cook I just don’t like to. So I relied on convenience foods a lot. Now I’m trying to find ways to make the healthy foods convenient. I wish you all the best with your health!!!

[@jollyjerr]

Fantastic rebuttal Mic! Thank you for putting in the work!

[@timaddison868]

4:39 Mic suggests that there are a "ton" of practical problems associated with DIASS. What he doesn't tell you is that DIASS was preceded by other measures, such as the protein efficiency ration (PER), the net protein retention ratio (NPR), and the protein digestibility corrected amino acid score (PDCAAS). So, the real question is - if DIAAS does actually have practical problems - are its problems characteristic of all such measures, or are its practical problems unique, and do they render it too impractical to use? 5:19 Mic says that DIAAS is "trash" - since Mic hasn't mentioned the other measures of protein quality, he couldn't mean that DIAAS is "trash" in comparison to those measures. So, what could it mean to say it is trash? The UN's FAO doesn't consider it trash, for example (and nor do the authors of the papers he cites, as we shall see). 5:49 The paper in question does not indicate that the results of applying DIAAS to whole diets and plant based diets are "atrocious". The paper actually acknowledges DIAAS' strengths. 5:57 "The digestibility figures come from animal models..." but so too do the figures for the PDCAAS, NPR and PER models. 6:02 "Often they're feeding raw, dry food inappropriately to these animals" The paper doesn't mention the appropriateness of feeding raw or dried food to the pigs - it does however point out that cooking food affects its digestibility, and hence, its DIASS. But that point is also made in the What I learned video. 6:05 "Digestibility depends on the size of the animal..." The paper does not mention animal size, age, or weight, or the effects of over-feeding. 6:16 "and from this paper in the vast majority of figures that they have, they have not prepared these samples in the way that humans would eat them so really they're saying they need new data entirely for human consumption figures." No, that's not at all what the paper says. The paper states in the introduction that "recent studies...do not inform to which extent a specific protein can be digested to meet the human body requirements;" the authors' objective, therefore, is to "broaden the comparison of DIAAS to more protein sources." The text quoted in the video is simply re-stating what was said in the introduction; it absolutely is not saying that all previous, animal research and its results need to be tossed; they are saying that existing data needs to be compared against data generated from human tests - of which there is very little (ileal tests require hooking a hose to one's lower-intestinal tract). 6:30 > 6:43 Mic doesn't say who the "they is" but the 6.25 figure can be found in the first paper he referenced. What the paper says exactly is: "Food-specific nitrogen-to-protein conversion factors have been determined for various foods and can be used for this calculation; however, the FAO does not recommend their use. Instead, it recommends that the generalized nitrogen-to-protein conversion factor be utilized. The generalized factor was set at 6.25 because all proteins were originally estimated to contain 16% nitrogen; however, this varies greatly between proteins." So, the authors' complaint is not with DIAAS; as a method but with the FAO which recommends using the 6.25 conversion factor. The authors do, after all, recognize that other "food specific nitrogen-to-protein conversion factors" exist (i.e., "have been determined"). Thus this is not an indictment against DIAAS; it is a suggestion for how it could be improved. 7:13 > 8:20 No other measure of protein quality, PER, NPR, PDCAAS, has been applied to "whole diets" - because that's not what they're designed to do. They're designed to determine the quality of protein from discrete sources. However, they all agree that the amount of protein that can be utilized can be increased by increasing the amount of the limiting amino acids. No nutritionist has ever said otherwise. The What I learned video even acknowledges this. 8:21 "While I think the scoring is trash..." Except your sources haven't shown that it is "trash" or that it "has a ton of practical problems." 8:27 > 8:34 "to further show how trash it actually is or at least how trashy this misapplication to a plant-based diet is..." Yes, the second paper does indeed say that. Just before it says that, it says: "Based on the 0.5- to 3-year-old scoring pattern, potato and most animal-derived proteins tend to reach the excellent protein quality category (DIAAS ≥100). Soy and whey proteins fall into the high-quality protein range (DIAAS = 75-99). Gelatin, corn, wheat, hemp, fava bean, oat, pea, canola, rapeseed, lupin, and rice proteins lie in the no quality claim category (DIAAS

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

With just a little thought it is pretty obvious that the DIAAS approach to scoring a food based on the EAA it has the least of is incredibly misleading and leads to ridiculous and counterproductive conclusions. Imagine if we rated the tools in your toolbox based on how good each was for the 9 most important handyman practices (hammering, screwing, painting, etc.). Every tool would be rated as having zero or near zero value, because paintbrushes can't drive screws and a hammer is lousy at painting walls. Similarly, imagine giving every food an omnibus rating based on which vitamin or mineral it provides the least of: Almost every or every plant and animal food would receive a score of zero. This is not to slam the scientists who designed the DIAAS, but using the global score for a food is unscientific and idiotic--unless your sole purpose was to design an animal feed using only the best all-round protein source (and for some strange reason you could only use one). Also, the scores for different EAAs are useful. "Watching Mic reminds me Christian apologists trying to explain away science that threatens their worldview" Your long detailed and defensive reply reminds me more of the Christian apologists. The WIL video Mike is referring to appears to have been designed out of either profound ignorance of the science of whole diets or out of an attempt to discredit plant foods and elevate animal foods (a trend also seen in WIL's absurdly misleading videos about the environmental impacts of beef). Yes, people eating just plant protein need to be aware of the EAA profiles of different plant foods, but in the real world, people get healthier when they replace animal fat and protein with whole food plant fat and protein.

[@realgems24]

I don't want my woman to have muscles

[@MegaYamato10]

Nutrition is a really annoying subject to learn about but if I learned anything from this video, it's that you can't trust anyone who compiles the information for you. I'm not vegan or even vegetarian and I only watched this to find out the truth from the other video. It always turns out to be far more complicated and people always leave out information. Even though this channel has highlighted mistakes in the original video, I wouldn't subscribe because I think it's more important that people just research things themselves instead of latching onto another youtuber for information on nutrition. Nevertheless, I'm thankful for this video to help me come to that realisation. I've seen debunks of debunks of debunks and it gets really tiring. Everyone is just looking for information supporting what they already believe to be true and everyone has an agenda. The meat industry is likely protected by a plethora of powerful things but I wouldn't believe for a second that the veganism industry doesn't or won't do the exact same thing. It's exhausting listening to and surrounding yourself with people who wouldn't admit they like feeling better than others. People in the comments joking about What I've Learned not really learning anything or "carnists" being people who jump to the next claim while entirely ignoring data. Finding amusement in a way that makes themselves feel superior or generalising entire groups as ignorant. Sorry for ranting but ultimately I'm buying science textbooks, reading published scientific papers and trusting how my own body feels and performs. I hope everyone eventually does the same or something similar.

[@hammy9800]

yes this is a major problem and a very difficult one too. I am trying to go vegan but I'm not actively looking for information to support my lifestyle. I want unbiased facts, which is hard to get when watching a video where someone obviously has a side. and it'll take alot longer to do all this research yourself

[@MegaYamato10]

@@hammy9800 It definitely is longer. I looked at the sources from the original video and if you want to be accurate and informative, it would take hours just to read it let alone compile it into a video. I suspect most KZbinrs who research things and compile them often skim or miss things because it's extremely difficult not to. The source about increasing the average protein intake from .8 to 1.2/3 was a study on OLD WOMEN. I'm not an old woman or even and old man yet but it's just so easy to misinform. Everyone needs to learn to think for themselves or we will just lap up information that we like to hear from smiling charismatic pseudo celebrities.

[@nusaibahibraheem8183]

@@hammy9800 Very difficult to get unbiased facts, everyone has an agenda unfortunately, including this video.

[@buzz10014]

thanks so much mike for all youve done and continue to do for us all

[@mikean7074]

Were you able to get the whole shaft in?

[@hampopper3150]

Live stock don't meet this daily intake of protein. We should feed them beef.

[@hampopper3150]

@Aaron Loos But plant protein is inferior to animal protein right?

[@hampopper3150]

Feed them beef! HAARRRRG!

[@hampopper3150]

My grandpa told me there's a beef tree he saw it with his own eye's.

[@hampopper3150]

I know right! Humans are weird they have a digestive system of the great apes but end up cooking most foods. Aarron loos cows may have 4 stomachs but its not for the protein its to get more energy out of cellulose.

[@hampopper3150]

@Aaron Loos aaaaaaa are you ok in the head. Feed a monkey only meat to prove me wrong. The only way to make meat mostly safe for monkeys to consume is to cook it. Bears are omnivores you can feed them plant foods and raw meat. To me you sound like someone that has never went to science class and decided to chew and smoke Tabaco in the bathrooms. Just because you can eat dirt dose not make you a dirtvore.

[@BradStelmach]

As an active 65 year old male, can I age healthfully with enough protein on my vegan diet? I believe I am consuming enough calories.

[@smedleyjefferson1450]

Even though I’m only a cyclical vegan, I appreciate Mic’s passion and intelligence. He makes some very good points, exaggerates others. My own take: veganism does tend to reduce muscle mass, but it does boost cancer inhibition and longevity, if done properly, for many, maybe most people

[@GaryHighFruit]

You're ignorant. I know of many long term fruitarians that are high-level athletes.

[@travismcgrath2403]

I love meat. I really disliked What I Learned video however it's equly hard to watch a debunk video from someone that has Vegan in their channel name. The bias is strong here.

[@MrRibbett454]

Great video. Would be good if what I've learnt could respond to your robust and comprehensive debunking, but I guess he is on to his next people pleaser video by now; no regard for the harm he causes in his wake.

[@MictheVegan]

He has done responses in the past but just written ones on his Patreon.

[@ChrisHow]

I was kinda concerned about this, but now I'm not. Thanks for addressing it Mic.

[@metaspherz]

I nearly died eating a vegan diet. Proteins aside, I have not felt this good at 75 in 15 years since I became a carnivore. After being on a strict diet for 5 years due to high blood pressure, diabetes, and high cholesterol (I am not nor ever have been a smoker, heavy drinker, or lazy couch potato) I was getting sicker and collecting more and more prescriptions...to get better. I love veggies, don't get me wrong when I say that I love to eat raw veggies, broccoli, carrots, cauliflower, radishes, leafy greens, etc. I also take vitamins and minerals. I still have most of my teeth so I can chew the raw veggies without pain or discomfort. So, I should have been as healthy as a horse, but I wasn't! So, if veggies, grains, and fruits are so great why was I getting sicker by the day, fatter, with a fatty liver? I exercise and ride a bike every day, and I do my 10,000 steps before 5 pm daily! Well, it's the carbs. Carbs, too many of them, are like poison they turn to sugar and are stored as fat. Despite exercising, I wasn't getting any thinner. I guess I wasn't getting enough activity at my senior age, to burn the carb sugars, so my gut got larger, I farted a lot and I had loose stools most of the time. My blood sugar was in the 300s! How many friggin' miles do I have to ride my bike to burn all that glucose? How much should I sweat? How much should I stop eating? Well, I did stop eating a lot of pasta, cereals, and potatoes. That helped a little but last Dec. 2023 my A1C was 10.7! My doctor wanted to give me a shot and I refused. Instead, I saw a carnivore video by Mr. Peterson about how his daughter cured herself of all sorts of maladies. It saved her life. But my doctor said no red meat, and my blood pressure was too high. Ha! I tried carnivore for two weeks and my nightly leg cramps stopped entirely! My blood pressure dropped to below 140 over 80 for the first time in two years! My blood glucose was below a hundred. What!!! Impossible. I weighed myself and I'd lost 10 pounds! What!!! So, I'd given up bread, cookies, donuts, pasta, potatoes, and milk -- all carbs! I was eating only meat...nothing else, and my body was responding positively. So, I continued for another month. A month after that and so forth. By 6 months I'd lost 50 pounds and got below 200 for the first time in 17 years! I celebrated by enjoying some veggies again, the good ones with maybe a potato, a few slices of Keto-approved bread an apple or two, and a banana. Almost immediately my blood sugar shot up to a spike of 190. My blood pressure was 155 over 92 for the first time in months! I had to take my Metformin too. I freaked. My blood sugar was high for two days but it came down to 110 after I went back to eating only meat again. I am sold! Veggies are poison and they are killing people. I also gained 5 pounds overnight! People need to know the truth that for tens of thousands of years humans have been carnivores first and veggie eaters second. Our bodies are not made for roughage that is undigestible and that is stored as fat. Only for a short time in our history have we been farming the poisons that have increased cancer, heart disease, and diabetes in our species! All the misinformation by vegans is killing us and people have got to know that there is no proof whatsoever that being a vegan will make you healthier! A new paradigm shift needs to happen. And that is to a healthy carnivore diet!

[@woodyoi4035]

I was also surprised to see my blood pressure drop only eating mostly red meat

[@noellecuisine8912]

Thank you 🙏🏻 for this one toooo ! Cheers from Netherlands 🇳🇱! WFPB tooo and we absolutely thrive and love ❤️ it !!! Good 😊 work Mic 🎤!

[@dayalsingh1000]

Great work bro, I am a vegan for 17yrs, a natural call, nobody inspired me or recommended it for me, I just turn vegan a day and that is my journey and never watched back. It's the best thing that happened to my life. Continue the great work, love from Ghana, a country where vegetarian are rare, and being even a vegetarian is tough, so guess been vegan? But I still go on!

[@Amshatelia88]

You are inspiring!

[@Big_Dai]

I don't think you can call an unnatural approach to living (having an unbalanced diet) a "natural call"

[@dayalsingh1000]

@@Big_Dai that's your own cup of tea, I have been doing this for 19yrs, never been rushed to the hospital in this 19yrs, don't get regularly headaches, stomachaches, body pains and all various I see people suffer from over here because of their diet. And it is absolute nonsense to think that eating a plant based diet is not balanced diet, there are so many varieties of plants to mix up correctly to get all that you need for your body, guess you are missing a lot. In 19yrs this crap you just said, shows how lazy and inexorable you are to do your research and it easy for you to comment without any evidence.

[@PvtParts14]

This video was good and bad. I certainly think it's valuable to have counterarguments that appraise (and challenge) the available research. However Mic's arrogance and ad hominens dampen this. I also think he's guilty of some fallacies of his own - for example: - Demonising leucine as a trigger of IGF-1 expression without much further context around either of those substrates (other than "IGF-1 = cancer, therefore leucine bad!"). - Asserting that the impacts of vegan diets on things like inflammation are the result of "plant proteins being superior" when animal and plant proteins exist in a soup of other biological molecules, all with their own intricate physiological effects, and the initial argument was specifically about protein quality and not necessarily the healthiness of plants or meat more generally. - Countering criticisms of vegan diets (and their protein levels) by upholding 'ideal' vegan diets as the standard... as though every vegan eats a well-balanced whole-food diet, which is almost as fallacious as saying carnivores all eat lean, additive-free, grass-fed, unprocessed meat products (because that's what's 'recommended' to them). - Dismissing links between meat consumption and childhood physical development with anecdotes about his Iowan classmates, or ignoring the clear correlations between protein consumption (overall and meat-derived) and size... or attributing it to hormones in animal products while ignoring the presence of endocrine disruptors like phytoestrogens in soy/plant products, which can certainly reduce overall lean mass and height. I'm not saying that meat is healthier than plants. For the record, I try to follow a Mediterranean diet comprised predominantly of vegetables. But let's try to be a little less snarky and judgemental, and to acknowledge both sides of every argument rather than coming across as biased ideologues. Plant-based diets are beneficial for humans in many ways, but they don't win EVERY fight. And that's okay. They don't need to.

[@Namena33]

Yes finally! I did ask for this response a couple video back. I’m glad the most credible vegan KZbinr is doing a response to this😁 thank you Mic

[@mikean7074]

Most credible?

[@11235Aodh]

@@mikean7074 Pretty darn credible though, or do you see many "debunking this Mic the Vegan guy" around? ;)

[@DragonKingNasis]

Idk, this dude's video looked like it had the same level of research as the last one. In the end neither is convincing to me. So I'm gonna keep on eating plants and animals.

[@WeissM89]

Them: hUManS aRE OmNIvOreS Also them: Use the digestive system of a herbivore to establish the digestibility of different foods in humans.

[@veniqer]

Pigs are omnivores, though.

[@jwc7215]

Pigs are omnivores

[@d.bcooper2271]

You kept silent

[@UTF016]

I’ve been looking into this topic for quite some time and what I found out is that the protein source doesn’t matter at all. "Digestibility" scores are are misnomer, because they do not calculate any digestibility, only amino-acid content. We digest and absorb protein from plants and meats pretty much the same: if you cook, you digest and absorb more; if not, you digest and absorb less. No professional protein guidelines specify different protein requirements depending on the source. If you’re a professional athlete, you can possibly - maybe - potentially - consider adding some 10 grams of vegan protein more to your shake if you care so much about every gram of protein, because who knows, you might benefit from it. It’s a waste of money, time and effort for everyone else.

[@GarudaLegends]

that is a lie. just accept meat has the best source of protein and nutrients. no need to sound like a vegan religious zealot

[@UTF016]

@@GarudaLegends If you want ME to even remotely consider what you’re saying (let alone "accept" this religious mantra "eat meat or else!"), you better have good credentials and reliable sources. Otherwise you’re just a random kid online wasting your own and everybody else’s time.

[@MrFreeGman]

Any bodybuilder or professional athlete would laugh in your face for saying something so ridiculous. You ever wonder why a vegan has never won a gold medal at any olympic sport?

[@UTF016]

@@MrFreeGman Track and field athlete David Verburg is a three-time Olympic gold medalist. He started his journey into veganism in 2018, which was inspired by his advocacy and love for animals. Carl Lewis is one of only four athletes to have won nine Olympic gold medals during his career as a runner. He’s been fueled by a plant-based diet for over 25 years now. Trained figure skater and Olympic gold medalist Meagan Duhamel has lived a plant-based lifestyle since 2008. Soccer star and Olympic gold medalist Alex Morgan adopted a vegan lifestyle in 2017 and has not looked back ever since. It’s ok to admit you don’t know something, but spreading obvious misinformation is very unhelpful to your cause.

[@MrFreeGman]

@@UTF016 All of those athletes were eating meat while building their foundations. They became vegans after they were already at the highest level. It's like men who put on a wig and convert to being a woman a week before the event and then claim that they represent women. No one's buying it other than the cultists.

[@LouisGedo]

*Create a Better 🌎 and a Better You by..................Living Vegan* 💜

[@Meathead-10810]

You are 100% correct, I got the following benefits from meat protein No more loose teeth, bleeding gums, sensitive teeth, blocked sinuses, mouth breathing, left eye twitches, heartburn, calf cramps, yellow stool, blood in stool, edema below the knees, pain in feet when walking, I can stay out in the sun longer without burning or peeling, lower back has recently started feeling stronger.

[@aljdr]

Industry-paid bots now, with "arguments" that don't explain sh*t but point out a lot of things in an attempt to appear meaningful. Fck off. What goes on next? Industry-paid processed vegan foods which harm the health as much as cruelty-based foods? Oh, right, they already did that. Not to mention mass-use of pesticides in every single kind of crop. Much worse for those who choose cruelty-based, as they don't only stain themselves with the blood of innocents, they also get a concentrate of those chems, proportional to the amount of feed necessary to raise those poor babies. Sure thing, I'm vegan too. Been for almost 5 years now and my health has improved a great deal. I even stopped using glasses. My muscles grow by themselves; I'm in a fine shape and don't do a lot of exercise; I also got increased resistance. Mind's been getting sharper, also. It's important to make sure we choose adequate sourcing for everything we consume, as it Is literally what builds us up and what determines our overall wellbeing. Preferring organic will always do best, even better if you grow yourself. Please, stop this attempt to mask up this horrific nightmare, this slaughterhouse, with "innocent-health-claims from a shady inconnue". It is an insult to our planet as it also is to our health. Just stop it; and go vegan, btw. Do so in a conscious, wholesome manner, and you'll heal from even more things than those you are aware of.

[@Meathead-10810]

@@aljdr Good for you. I tried a vegan diet for two years, that is what screwed up my health so much. Two years of vegan diet was worse for me than twenty five years of the standard diet.

[@pikapi6993]

this is why it is so dangerous that these people are promoting veganism for everybody claiming that "everybody can be vegan". It is simply not true. To each their own, but why do they have to spread lies and put other people in danger? Are they so insecure about their diet, that they have to make themselves feel better by putting other diets down?

[@belevitt1]

Mocking a researcher's name doesn't diminish the quality of his work

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

This is a channel that takes a light-hearted tone all the time: Don't take it so seriously.

[@belevitt1]

@@HealingLifeKwikly I can appreciate that! This channel seems like it deals with tables and figures from scientific literature. Cards on the table, I'm a medical researcher myself (maybe with a silly name) and I've had my work misconstrued and tortured by well meaning amateurs who will use any excuse to ignore my results. This hit a nerve bc the author complained that results aren't important bc they were funded by grants from industrial partners

[@betzib8021]

Yeah...those plant based countries need to rev up their protein consumption so they can rev up their cardiovascular and cancer percentages to be more like us. They are lagging behind.

[@annala2956]

Where is What I've Learned's video about how meager the US population's fiber intake? Great video! And thanks for mentioning Ethiopian food...my favorite cuisine, hands-down.

[@ZaasKenar]

A sickly looking vegan "debunking" a video about proteins. Like clockwork.

[@patrickbeger3615]

An animal abuser accusing a vegan of being sickly for literally no reason - like clockwork lol

[@KK-lg8uz]

An arrogant vegan thinking veganism is a cruelty free diet, but actually has no idea what they’re talking about.. like clockwork.

[@patrickbeger8166]

​​@@KK-lg8uz Harvesting crops is not cruel. Torturing animals in factories and slitting their throats in slaughterhouses is... If you have an issue with crop deaths, go vegan because guess what. Farm. Animals. Eat. Crops. Too 😅 Your childish defensiveness is predictable and pathetic 👍

[@abhayagarwal5097]

Typical moronic carnist thinking vegans don't understand that it isn't completely cruelty free like most of the things we contribute to unintentionally (walking , paying taxes ,child labour and buying medicine's likely tested on animals ) but that doesn't means just because there is unintentional /needed suffering caused by our presence and acts ,justifies intentionally raping ,exploiting and killing an innocent sentient being (that can said to be far better than human animals ) when we clearly have a choice that is better for humans and earth in every way ,also causes less non-human animals suffering fortunately and even if it didn't, wouldn't have made it justifiable to do the horrible thing to our non-human friends . We could have then instead collectively push for practices that causes minimum suffering for non-human animals but rn we are stuck in middle because carnists can't give up on their convenience and taste. But vegans already doing much more by beyond contributing to less non-human animal suffering even if it isn't completely cruelty free.

[@abhayagarwal5097]

Much more *beyond

[@Normie_Normalson]

you cannot 'debunk' anything with associative, self-reported, and adjusted data. you cannot even reliably establish correlation in most cases. but since the video you're debunking is apparently relying on the same sort of pseudoscientific 'research', it's really just two clowns talking in circles.

[@chloe2264]

Lol, the “shorter” vegan children. I’m 5’, my partner was 6’1” and my (almost) 8 year old daughter (vegan from womb/birth) is the tallest girl in her class, 2nd tallest overall. Was the tallest in her previous classes too. My 10 year old son is almost as tall as me, officially vegan from 1 year on (although only tried a couple non-vegan things by then anyway). He’s not super tall, but he’s no shrimp either. Just anecdotal, I know, but thought I’d add anyway! Love your videos :)

[@demoskunk]

She'd be dead if "vegan from birth". Stop lying

[@AtarGG]

I never thought Id subscribe to a vegan guy. 😮 I love the depth of your research.

[@hampopper3150]

Arguing with a pro meat eater is like arguing with a person from idiocracy about Brawndo.

[@PetarKaurin]

Hi Mic, I watch your videos regularly. I would like to see a video about protein usability in general. I have lots of questions, when I speak to my friends they don't know the answers as well, I think many people don't. Although there is hype around it. When protein gives you energy? Could protein ends up as fat in your belly? When its "complete" that is irrelevant because it needs to be broken down to Amino acids and than build from scratch every time (with different amino acids profile)? If protein is not used for energy why we count it in calories? I have more questions if anybody is interested about topic. (English not native, sorry)

[@picgmr1575]

complete means having all of the essential amino acids at relative concentration, essential amino acids cannot be made by the body.

[@helojoe92]

Thanks, stranger from KZbin! I've cut down on my meat intake in the past, but was fooled by WIL's video and went back to being a full time meat-eater. Finding out that I'm a gullible person hurt, but I also attribute part of that to wanting the easy way out (thinking about nutrition and learning new recipes feels like hard work and a lot of effort to me, because pretty much every meal in my childhood contained some form of animal protein), now I feel like a fool. WIL preyed on my confirmation bias and he got me good... I see myself as a man of science though, and the evidence and arguments you've provided made it unmistakenly clear, that I need to dive deeper into the mess of nutrition science and change my diet once again! So thanks, for setting me straight and showing me my bias, even though it hurt to accept it. Subscribed!

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

@KZbin Account Well, WIL DOES get the science wrong on plant vs. animal protein AND on the ecological impacts of beef.

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

@KZbin Account Plant protein is bioavailable enough that anyone eating ample amounts of a variety of different plant foods will be covered. For every EAA, there are multiple plant foods with DIAAS scores of 100 or higher, and for all but one, there is at least one plant food with a score over 110. Furthermore, getting protein from plants is healthier in other ways. Take care.

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

​@KZbin Account Two thoughts. First, it's a little more complicated than your first line: Some plant proteins DO have excellent bioavailability, including soy, mycoprotein, and potatoes. However, the QUANTITY of protein most people get from soy will be higher than the other two. Second, yes, this shouldn't be a problem if you are getting enough protein from a variety of plant foods. And everyone eating plant-based eats a variety of plant-protein-containing foods (I get 20 g of protein every day just from the kale I eat). Also, different plant foods actually have excellent scores for one or more essential amino acids, so once you combine them together, it covers the bases well (lysine is the hardest base to cover, and some people eating plant-based could fall short on lysine if they aren't getting enough legumes, potatoes, soy, etc.) But before I even get to lunch, I will have eaten maybe 15 different protein-containing foods across the morning (including a 7-grain cereal), and will be somewhere in this ballpark: 2 cups soy milk: 14 g protein 2 thick slices homemade bread: ~16 g Spicy bean dip on the bread: 5 g protein 3 cups kale: 6.6 g protein Big bowl of heritage flakes: 8 g protein Bowl steel cut oats: 7.5 g protein Banana: 1.3 g protein OK, so I’m not yet to my spicy rice & beans lunch, and I’m around 58.4 g of protein already, and have gotten in good carb-loading to give me energy for the day. I’ll end the day at around 100 g of protein, which is more than 1 g/kg of bodyweight. (and I'm clearly not starving!) Take care.

[@JohnMoseley]

If it makes you feel any better, I also had a phase of eating a lot of meat due to a WIL video, and also felt like an idiot at the end of it when Plant Chompers showed me the error of my ways. Am vegan now and, so far, not suffering from kwashiorkor.

[@donovangunther4538]

"Wow, I can't believe a KZbinr would influence my diet decisions. Thank you for teaching me to change my diet decisions mr. KZbinr!"

[@chiefpriestmalakyaahlahada6748]

Just because it's protein don't mean it's essential and complete.However.you.can get protein from plants.

[@JeriDro]

I know one thing, the more food is processed, the worse it is for you. Also, cooking certain foods diminishes the nutritional value.

[@Antione-Gallagos]

Thank you for all of your hard work in debunking these meat-based myths! However, could you address the Polish study bone density issue?

[@FoolyCooly99]

I noticed he made no attempt to debunk the actual nutritionist or Doctor in the original video as well as he quotes a lot of Chinese and European studies which i bet are funded by the World Economic Forum and other Soros interest groups. The Chinese are also not reducing their animal protein consumption but instead increasing it. He also says that the video doesn't mention having a variety of plant proteins to get enough essential amino acids when in fact he does, he just points out that you have to consume twice as many calories to get all the amino acids necessary to make the plant proteins absorbable. The other thing he forgets to mention even though he loves to talk about hormone effect is the amount of phytoestrogen vegans get with their diet. Too much estrogen for both men and women is a bad thing. He also claims that high meat diets cause inflammation and cancer when in reality it's probably all the sugar and carbs people consume with the meat that causes these issues. I bet if his studies compared clean animal protein diets to clean vegan diets you'd see a significant difference in the positive towards animal protein. The initial comment i made about the WEF and Soros is that it's easier to control people when they're fattened up or made stupid. Also leucine contributes to cancer growth but not it's creation. Inflammation and hormones like estrogen create cancer mutations. I see a higher link to vegans who subsist on carbs having poor health and high cancer rates compared to omnivores who eat clean. www.foodnavigator-asia.com/Article/2019/04/29/Protein-powerhouse-Asia-the-key-protein-market-by-2025-with-China-and-India-leading-the-charge www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet-could-affect-your-intelligence www.healthline.com/nutrition/sugar-and-inflammation#TOC_TITLE_HDR_8

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

" he quotes a lot of Chinese and European studies which i bet are funded by the World Economic Forum and other Soros interest groups. " That's a strange conspiracy theory. Peer-reviewed studies have to pass peer review, and the Chinese are doing amazing things in science, so doubting the validity of Chinese studies just because they are from China is both unscientific and racist. "he just points out that you have to consume twice as many calories to get all the amino acids necessary to make the plant proteins absorbable." That's simply not true: Vegans can get all the protein they need without overconsuming calories. Vegans on average are the slimmest group--the only one with a normal average BMI in some studies. "The other thing he forgets to mention even though he loves to talk about hormone effect is the amount of phytoestrogen vegans get with their diet. Too much estrogen for both men and women is a bad thing. " You just mixed up phytoestrogens with estrogens. Eating phytoestrogens BLOCKS the estrogen receptors, so it LOWERS estrogen levels for both women and men (thus lowering cancer risk), without lowering levels of testosterone. "I bet if his studies compared clean animal protein diets to clean vegan diets you'd see a significant difference in the positive towards animal protein." NO. There are a wide variety of mechanisms by which eating more animal protein simply promotes more disease--he walked through some of them in the video. Mic already made a video debunking the story you linked to on vegan diets and IQ. And the research clearly shows that WHOLE food carbs--which is what Mic promotes--REDUCE inflammation and disease.

[@FoolyCooly99]

@@HealingLifeKwikly Oh man taking a classic page out of the SJW playbook by claiming racism and conspiracy theory to discredit an argument super logical. China the Communist country we're potentially going to war with if they invade Taiwan as well as the one that developed a virus that allowed almost every first world nation to turn into a tyrannical police state. That China funds Chinese and European scientists to do a plethora of immoral science. Like weaponizing viruses, cloning humans and trying to push a diet that will enfeeble their enemies to make them easier to conquer and control while making sure their people stay strong and brainwashed into believing they are the chosen race. This rhymes like WW2 Japan. I'm sorry if that's too conspiracy for your liberal idealism. He never proves that in his video because he never shows the part with the Doctor saying that. Also you saying them being the slimmest totally contradicts his comments that vegans aren't malnourished as well as BMI is bull. Show me a body composition study if you want any weight to your argument there. Being slim doesn't equate to better health, way to body shame. Phytoestrogen acts just like regular estrogen except not as potent. Which means you need to consume a lot more to get the same affects which happens in a vegan diet. Look up how much phytoestrogen is in soy. Then you'll know how soy boys happen. As well as there are studies that too much soy can increase breast cancer risk. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fIW2p3-Bjpx7e80 www.breastcancer.org/research-news/soy-may-turn-on-genes-linked-to-cancer www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074428/ His mechanism don't account for carbs, sugars, or vegetable oils. Also the animal protein diet has the benefit of history behind it. Humans have consumed animals since they were created and have survived this long. Please tell me again how your hippie dippie 1970s diet will make humans healthier. Herbivores are herbivores for a reason and the same with us omnivores. You're going to use the guy that we are debating about being legitimate to prove one of my points wrong that's like using a word in a definition. What research? You've provided nothing. Don't link him either as his research is already questionable at best. Just a last question here. Where's a link to his little amino acid calculator that shows the vegan diet works and DIAAS is useless? Which I point out he never actually disproved how the lack of amino acids required more food aka the statement from the Doctor.

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

@@FoolyCooly99 "Like weaponizing viruses, cloning humans and trying to push a diet that will enfeeble their enemies to make them easier to conquer and control while making sure their people stay strong and brainwashed into believing they are the chosen race." If you are serious in believing that nations are weaponizing diets, then your conspiracy theory should focus on the U.S. and European countries because it it the exporting of the "Standard American Diet" that is driving increases in disease all over the world. The best recent research clearly indicates that people are healthier when they replace more of the meat and dairy in their diets with whole plant foods. Mic reviewed some of that research in this video, and none of this is relying on Mic's judgment: Peer-reviewed studies clearly show that replacing meat/animal foods with whole plant foods reduces rates of disease and mortality. For example, “Consuming meat increases the risk of developing heart disease, diabetes, pneumonia, and several other conditions, according to a study published in BMC Medicine. Researchers compared meat intake with adverse health outcomes, including hospitalization and mortality, using data from the UK Biobank study. Those who ate meat three times a week or more had worse health outcomes when compared to those who ate less meat. Results showed higher risks for ischemic heart disease, pneumonia, diverticular disease, colon polyps, and diabetes for every 70 grams of red and processed meat consumed per day. Higher intake of poultry was associated with increased risk for gastroesophageal reflux disease, gastritis and duodenitis, diverticular disease, gallbladder disease, and diabetes. Possible mechanisms for the increased risk for disease include higher intakes of sodium, iron, nitrates and nitrites, bacteria, and saturated fat from consuming meat and higher LDL cholesterol levels and changes in gut microbiota associated with meat consumption. The authors call for additional research on the effects of disease incidence with decreased meat consumption.” Papier K, Fensom GK, Knuppel A, et al. Meat consumption and risk of 25 common conditions: Outcome-wide analyses in 475,000 men and women in the UK Biobank study. BMC Med. 2021;19(1):53-67. doi: 10.1186/s12916-021-01922-9 “Egg consumption increases risk for all-cause and cardiovascular disease mortality, according to a study published in the European Journal of Nutrition. Researchers compared egg intake with mortality risk in 20,562 participants with no cancer or heart disease diagnoses from the Moli-sani Study cohort. After a median 8.2 years, those who consumed more than four eggs per week increased their risk of death from all causes, heart disease, and cancer when compared to those who consumed zero eggs or one egg per week. A more moderate intake of two to four eggs per week increased the risk for cancer mortality and all-cause and heart disease mortality by 22% and 43%, respectively. For participants with hypertension and hyperlipidemia, an increase of one egg per week increased mortality risk. Higher dietary cholesterol and total cholesterol from egg intake accounted for the increased mortality risk. These results suggest that dietary guidelines discourage egg consumption, especially for high-risk individuals with hypertension and hyperlipidemia.” Ruggiero E, Di Castelnuovo A, Costanzo S, et al. Egg consumption and risk of all cause and cause specific mortality in an Italian adult population. Eur J Nutr. Published online March 24, 2021. doi: 10.1007/s00394-021-02536-w “Eating plant-based protein instead of animal protein reduces the risk for early death, according to a study published in JAMA Internal Medicine. Researchers compared protein intake and mortality rates of participants in the US National Institutes of Health-AARP Diet and Health Study. Those who ate more plant-based protein reduced their overall risk for death when compared to those who ate less plant-based protein. Results showed replacing 3% of animal protein with plant-based protein from foods such as bread, cereal, and pasta reduced the risk of death from heart disease by up to 12%. These associations were strongest when it came to replacing protein from eggs and red meat with plant protein. These findings support previous research that shows that plant-based protein sources promote better health and longevity.” Huang J, Liao LM, Weinstein SJ, Sinha R, Graubard BI, Albanes D. Association between plant and animal protein intake and overall and cause-specific mortality. JAMA Inter Med. Published online July 13, 2020. “Consuming red and processed meat increases the risk for chronic kidney disease, according to a study published in the Journal of Renal Nutrition. Researchers followed diet records for participants from the Tehran Lipid and Glucose Study and tracked protein sources and chronic kidney disease incidence rates. Results showed that those who consumed the most red and processed meat increased their risk for disease by 73% and 99%, respectively, when compared to those who ate the least. Substituting one serving of red or processed meat with a serving of a different protein source such as legumes or grains lowered the risk for disease by up to 30%. Possible protective mechanisms associated with replacing meat with plants include the lower dietary acid load, lower intake of advanced glycation end products, and increased intake of nutrients associated with improved kidney function.” Mirmiran P, Yuzbashian E, Aghayan M, Mahdavi M, Asghari G, Azizi F. A prospective study of dietary meat intake and risk of incident chronic kidney disease. J Ren Nutr. 2020;30:111-118.

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

@@FoolyCooly99 "BMI is bull. Show me a body composition study if you want any weight to your argument there. Being slim doesn't equate to better health, way to body shame." I didn't body shame anyone and don't intend to, I am just reporting empirical facts. Older research that created the idea of "healthy overweight" made the mistake of lumping together people who had become slim due to the diseases they had with people who were normal BMI without disease. However, more recent research that corrects for that error finds that the healthiest BMI is 21-22, and disease and mortality climb steadily above that. I can send the link later if you want it, but I have it on one of my other computers. "Where's a link to his little amino acid calculator that shows the vegan diet works and DIAAS is useless?" Mic laid out the argument pretty clearly: The DIAAS assigns an overall score based on the amino acid for which the food meets the least of the RDA, which totally leaves out the greater satisfaction of other amino acids by that food. Imagine if we similarly reported the micronutrient benefits of foods by simply reporting the vitamin of mineral for which the food provides the least. Almost every food would be rated as a zero if we used that logic, even if it is terrific for providing some micronutrients. Furthermore, as Mic pointed out, people who eat plant foods generally eat a variety of foods, and once you put together common combinations of those foods, the DIAAS score for the combination soars and reaches the "quality protein" range. Mic showed a chart in the video that clearly demonstrated that. "His mechanism don't account for carbs, sugars, or vegetable oils." It appears we agree that added sugars and oils are unhealthy. Good. As for carbs, there is enormous confusion about this because a) westerners mostly eat highly processed carb foods that contains junk (oils, added sugars, chemicals), b) most research is mostly on the effects of processed carbs or does a poor job of distinguishing between refined carbs, whole but milled carbs, and truly whole food carbs (intact grains), c) commentators and doctors and researchers routinely conflate the different types of carbs, so low-carb gurus virtually always report results of studies that were on processed/refined carbs then turn around and claim all carbs are bad. In reality, the best evidence clearly indicates that whole food carbs are very healthy, and even healthier if you eat the intact forms (e.g., intact grains). "Also the animal protein diet has the benefit of history behind it. Humans have consumed animals since they were created and have survived this long." There are multiple problems with appealing to the fact we have historically eaten meat, eggs, etc. First, our bodies have changed, and so have the foods. One of the serious problems for animal foods in this regard is that humans have dumped into the environment tens of thousands of toxic chemicals, and these naturally accumulate at high levels in the fat of animals. That reduces the healthfulness of meat compared to pre-industrial times. Second, just because we can live long enough to reproduce and raise our young while eating lots of meat doesn't prove it is the healthiest diet for us. Third, we now have good research proving that eating less meat and more whole plant foods is healthier. That DOESN'T prove a vegan diet is healthiest for you or me or this or that group. But the trend is that better health outcomes come from very low animal food consumption compared to what westerners consider "normal."

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

@@FoolyCooly99 "Phytoestrogen acts just like regular estrogen except not as potent." Absolutely false. Phytoestrogens BLOCK the estrogen receptors and reduce estrogen levels in men and women alike. Experimental studies prove that. "Then you'll know how soy boys happen." Soy boys is largely a myth: Unless you consume truly massive amounts, soy doesn't change testosterone levels at all, and again, it REDUCES estrogen levels. "As well as there are studies that too much soy can increase breast cancer risk." The research generally and consistently shows that consuming soy LOWERS breast cancer rates and lowers them significantly. The only risks seem to appear in studies where unreasonable/ outlier amounts of soy were consumed.

[@BiggieCheese45]

Man who cherry picks data tries to debunk man with cherry picked data. Lmao.

[@man4437]

But then who is correct? I'm eating nothing at this rate

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

No, Mic didn't cherry-pick any data he. He dismantled WIL's misuse of DIAAS data and cited a whole bunch of data proving plant protein is decisively healthier than animal protein.

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

@KZbin Account I'm a university-based researcher, and I study nutrition and how people get confused about it. That is just what the facts show. Plant protein is generally healthier, and diets dominated by whole plant foods result in the best overall long-term health outcomes. And we know lots of reasons that explain that pattern of results. Take care.

[@BiggieCheese45]

@@HealingLifeKwikly Mic cherry-picked data just like anyone else would to prove their point. Can't wait for someone else to make a video to dismantle Mic's misuse of data and citing a whole bunch of data proving animal protein is decisively better than plant protein. Thus, the cycle continues and nothing gets solved. No one who truly cares is conceding or reaching a middle ground, it is just tribalism and it enriches these grifters.

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

@KZbin Account I just checked my email, don't see anything from you.

[@amitgupta25121993]

Getting protein from plants needs more caloric consumption. Plus RDA recommendation for protein is just to survive and not thrive.

[@KwizzyDaAwesome]

I was halfway through that video before I was like “something doesn’t smell right here” and I stumbled on this in my search (yes, I know). raised, pasture-raised chickens. Don’t really tolerate red meat well anymore, and I didn’t realize that protein powder isn’t disgusting after two weeks of use until I tried plant based instead of whey.

[@mattmcdonnell2239]

Youre the man. I saw the video you de-bunked and i was seriously debating on if i should stick with the plant based lifestyle and safe to say now i will not make the change lol. Keep doing the amazing work you do we really appreciate it!!

[@mintofoods1179]

Try carnivorous diet, than decide. Don't listen to scammers, especially vegans.

[@humangrowthfactor]

you should definitely make the change lol you can “debunk” anything with enough cherry picking research..carnivore diet + fruit all the way

[@LoreCraft]

I'm considering wading into this mess after watching a few videos. My conclusion is simply being omnivorous is the obvious choice, with a predominant selection of plant based foods. Eggs, for example, have such a high biological value and extremely nutritious, that if you can find a supplier and deal with humane concerns, there's literally no reason to not eat them. Super efficient, free (the chickens will lay them anyways), easily digestible, immensely versatile. Too useful and healthy not to use. The only reason not to is harm to the chickens, but if you control for that, then eating them everyday is a massive boost to high quality protein intake.

[@mravisserieux6162]

To be fair though, meat has so much more protein per calorie than plants so if you're into bodybuilding, it'll be a lot harder to do so as a vegan. Maybe with a lot of protein powder.

[@АртёмСавостин-н9щ]

That is one of the points from the video that he conveniently skipped. I don't care for vegan/keto diets, I'm omnivore and I just want to eat healthy, but all these lies from people backed by meat industry(carnivores/keto) or big pharma(vegans) are making it much harder than it needs to be.

[@mravisserieux6162]

@@АртёмСавостин-н9щ Yeah, if you look at the centenarians of Sardinia they have no particular restrictive diet but everything thet eat is local and organic+lots of wine and dancing. That's what I learned from my family in Greece, good food, low stress levels and a realtively active lifestyle=long life.

[@rainymg]

Never has being on the extreme side of the matter been the best to opt for! A balanced choice is always better.

[@nathanmitchell7961]

Came to this video as a fan of What I've Learned expecting a decent rebuttal but this has been a bit of a dumpster fire of a response. Protein Adequacy in Americans; Weirdly enough, I'm not sure why WIL had to provide this statistic as claim is wrong but still points in support of his argument. As Mic says at 2:58 "intakes of protein (as grams/ day) are adequate across the population" You know why? Because the American diet is highly based on a huge amount of animal products. Which actually proves WIL point on protein being completely adequate in the animal products consumed on a mass scale by most Americans, as these findings make a good point of evidence for that claim. Black Beans Nutrition; Firstly, you are accounting for two foods to reach those amino acids numbers compared to one animal product. Secondly, Black Beans do NOT have the same amount of protein and is lacking in linoleic acid beef has more linoleic acid than black bean per 100 grams. Black bean has more thiamin and folate, however, beef contains more niacin, pantothenic acid, Vitamin B6 and Vitamin B12. These vitamins are seen as mostly deficient in vegan diets. Just like the onion offering increased digestibility for Phtyic acid, meat eaten with vergatbles and grain largely reduces any cancer risk asocated with red meat. Remember, Meat eaters aren't just eating meat like exclusionary vegans who eat no animal products, ominvors had intended, befits from the continuity of both meat and plant based options. DIAAS Validity While it is true that the DIAAS suffers from some limitations it is a useful tool for protein analysis, especially compared with the PDCAAS. A study from 2022 "Protein Quality Changes of Vegan Day Menus with Different Plant Protein Source Compositions" finds the crucial amino acid lysine to be lacking in the diets analzyed by the case study. They ran the case study on the the EAT-Lancet diet which even found lower protein sources in planet based diets were even effected by which the proccess if refined or not. Most studies anylzing recomneded prtoein and emino acids scores for vegans dont include digestibility. Muscle Mass in Animal vs Plant Proteins There is a reason you're using a single community based cohort study based on middle age and elderly Chinese adults and not any of the overwhelming evidence to support lean muscle mass , and i think you know why. I dont believe after this research you didnt come across the "Animal Protein versus Plant Protein in Supporting Lean Mass and Muscle Strength: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis of Randomized Controlled Trials" study in 2021 that, even though found no absolute lean mass or muscle strength. It did find "Quantitatively, the meta-analysis revealed a favoring effect of animal protein specifically for percent lean mass. There was a significant gain in both absolute and percent lean mass with animal protein intake among adults

[@kimscheuer8023]

EXCELLENT VIDEO... thank you!... oh and you forgot the increased COVID mortality risk with eating more animal protein and a less plant slanted diet!

[@turnertrey]

Mic, thank you so much for this. I had no reference point for processing the video until you showed the way the studies were conducted and the ag funding of the information.

[@tallisholowka3946]

My POV: A person can find research that supports their beliefs or ideas about food. The bottom line is that the human body is extremely adaptable and can survive and grow on a variety of diets. My criticism is that to be a healthy vegan, one needs to consume x amounts of x, y & z daily to equal eating a steak AND most vegans I know don't actually eat much vegetables, they mostly survive on pasta breads and cereals, i.e., processed grains. I think that factory processed foods is what typically makes us sick-- not eating or eliminating specific food groups.

[@michelecammareri1464]

The fact that you use "stained public toilets" as an evidence that there is an over-consumption of protein is quite silly and completely irrelevant, you know that right?

[@jimpossidente5004]

How did the Vikings get fresh vegetables from all over the world?

[@masher1042]

What I have learned is that there are a lot of misinformation out there. Crazy world that we lived in. Thank you Mic.

[@Normie_Normalson]

yeah and this video is a prime example.

[@hiking1388]

I know there's always people willing to tell people what they want to hear so that they can make a quick buck, but......I've only just got to Mic's first point, where the guy is trying to claim the average american is protein deficient and you know this Fox News-level twisting of the truth. It's just so disheartening - firstly that so many people are willing to manipulate facts like this, but more importantly, that there are so many eager for the "alternative facts" :(

[@s.nikolic497]

he bases his clips on research, I don't know how you think he's misleading, he's not making things up

[@addre113]

No disrespect but this debunks nothing. DIAAS studies show bluntly that animal protein is superior over plant protein. Yes, its possible to have full amino spectrum on plant diet but you'd have to eat SIGNIFICANTLY more calories to do it(the autor mentions that as well) - meat is a better bang for your buck, you eat less and get more nutrition(not only protein but vitamins and minerals). People, don't kid yourself or try to rationolize your diet choices - if you want to be vegan that's absolutely fine, but don't buy into its superiority over "mixed" diet(animal + plants).

[@GaryHighFruit]

"you'd have to eat SIGNIFICANTLY more calories to do it" More than what? Do you wanna eat as little as possible? And lack energy? bang for your buck is wrong. Meat is expensive. On my vegan diet, I get 1800 calories a day at a cost of $6. (yeah, I eat less calories than the average Omni.

[@addre113]

@@GaryHighFruit Everyone is different and their lifestyles are different. I used to exploit my body a lot physically - I was unable to regenerate enough being on a vegeterian (no meat) diet. I took supplements etc etc. But it did not work for me. My body was weak and skinny. It just took one weekend off - visiting my mom and grandmother eating a pork-chop or two to see that I'm getting stronger and bigger (not big). I think the smartest way is just to listen to your body and observe it. If you look skinny and unhealthy, get cold easily, tire easily, get sick 4+ times a year, have skin problems, then yeah.. maybe there is something wrong with your diet. You need to have balance. Fruit, veg, meat and dairy its all good if you keep balance.

[@GaryHighFruit]

@@addre113 I was with you until the end when you claimed you had a turnaround in 2 days. 1. Mic DID debunk WIL's biased half-truth video, just like I did and other experts did. 2. you don't have to eat SIGNIFICANTLY more calories to get enough protein. This has been proven not only by both halves of the science, but by fruitarians winning marathons against omni's. Now that I think about it, your story could be true, in that you felt stronger. Now that doesn't mean you WERE stronger or the meat gave you something plants didn't. It could mean the meat took you out of a level of detox. When the body is in detox, it will take energy from your own use to use for the detoxing. Or there could be other things happening. But the problem was not protein.

[@jj-bp3fr]

What? U get more nutrition w meat? No way, I almost died eating dead rotten carcasses!

[@jj-bp3fr]

I think you need to get better educated on meat protein by a biochemist such as Dr. Milton Mills in this excellent video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZmbTlmCar9yphMksi=-IXFrm2BnmhSDCJP

[@Andy_Arkadata]

I was vegan for 2 years. I had horrible health. My skin worsened, I look older, my libido dropped, had numerous gut problems due to the gut irritants and inflammatory ingredients in plants. As soon as I went more carnivore, they virtually all went away in a week

[@moonman2051]

I'm vegan since I was a kid. I feel fine and had no skin problems. Debunked?

[@endlessnameless7004]

@@moonman2051 How do you "debunk" something like that, without knowing the individual's body chemistry?

[@moonman2051]

@@endlessnameless7004 you can't. Op used fear tactics about veganism. I simply provided my own experience.

[@TheHopefulOneMyBroA2C4]

@@moonman2051 His problems sound mostly like bad gut bacteria/super low calorie diet. Low libido is a big sign of low calorie intake.

[@mattstiglic]

No you didnt

[@RockStock6]

"He said it out of context" Literally says the same thing WIL said

[@joannabettman2123]

i loved when Colin Campbell wrote in "the China Study" that "the protien that is the MOST similar to human muscle is of course, human flesh" lol. I'm paraphrasing. Its like saying you have to eat brains if you really want to be smart

[@Veriv213]

So you just replaced questionable researches by the same, but matching your own opinion. You literally made the same error.

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

No, he literally showed that a) protein intake is not a concern for Americans, and in fact, we eat too much animal protein, b) the DIAAS global protein score IS totally misleading, c) a lot of research shows that plant protein is healthier overall, as are diets dominated by whole plant foods. Speaking as someone who teaches and researches nutrition, this is well-established in the field.

[@Veriv213]

@@HealingLifeKwikly ​ I was not so intrested by researches pertaining US as I am not from US, but 17:39 example disturbed me. Author no doubt doesnt seem to see difference between HDL nad LDL cholesterol, where vegan an vegetarian children had biggest difference, not mentioned about B12 defficiency, vitamine D defficiency. Also no word that researchers stated : "The vegetarians’ nutrient intake suggests a more processed type of PBD, which might explain their worse CVD risk profile". Is that responsible approach?

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

@@Veriv213 "Author no doubt doesnt seem to see difference between HDL nad LDL cholesterol, " I don't see what you are talking about: The chart shown on the screen clearly creates one tier that includes too high on LDL AND too low on HDL (although HDL under 45 actually isn't necessarily a problem if you have healthy LDL of 35-70). "not mentioned about B12 defficiency, vitamine D defficiency. " Mic has made other videos clearly addressing the nutrients that vegans and vegetarians need to be sure to get (including B12 and D). However, the focus here is de-bunking the SPECIFIC claims WIL noted, so this whole segment focuses on de-bunking the idea that plant-based diets are unnaturally "stunting" children. "Also no word that researchers stated : "The vegetarians’ nutrient intake suggests a more processed type of PBD, which might explain their worse CVD risk profile". Is that responsible approach?" You CAN create heart disease either by eating lots of saturated animal fat and cholesterol OR by eating lots of highly-processed carbs and added sugars. Again, in this segment, Mic's focus is just on debunking the stunting claim, so there's no reason to expect him to wander off and discuss other aspects of a study that WIL brought up. The vegans had better LDL numbers, which is the main causal risk factor for heart disease. More generally, the diets that have achieved the very best results for preventing, stopping, and reversing heart disease are very low fat plant-based and vegan diets. So again, I don't see reasonable grounds for complaining about what Mic did here, nor for claiming he did just what WIL did. He didn't. Take care.

[@Veriv213]

@@HealingLifeKwiklySorry I missed our answer. I dont see chart related to lower HDL and is is some kind of news to me that too low HDL is good in growth phase under some circumstances. Can you provide source? Also is good that you mentioned that there is a possibility of increasing CVD risk related to non-balanced diet, not to strictly eating meat. Researchers did not provide any comment stating that actually eating meet is related to risk increase. Cultural context also should not be missed as in Poland all kids attempting to kindergarten and almost all in elementary school are covered by public catering. At least 2 meals a day provided by school. Meat is not considered as allegren. It means if you want your kid to follow vegan/vegetarian diet, you have put lot of effort to provide it on your own. It brings us to another issue, as have been compared random groups of omnivoron kids and kids following probably more expensive(better quality) diet. Despite it those kids were shorter and had lower BMI. So yes, it is reasonable to compain what he did here. Neophic zeal.

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

@@Veriv213 "and is is some kind of news to me that too low HDL is good in growth phase under some circumstances." It is not "too low" HDL, it is simply lower HDL, and it is perfectly healthy if you have a healthy (lower) LDL level because if you have less LDL< you don't need as much HDL to clear the excess LDL away. So, in America, if you doctor if caught up on the research, and they see your LDL is 65, they are not going to think it is a problem that your HDL is in the 40s. The whole Polish study is ridiculous because 1) kids who are taller at one point in childhood may wind up shorter later, as Mic pointed out from the research, 2) being taller earlier has been linked to more health problems later, 3) there is no reason to think that being an inch of two taller is healthier or better than being an inch or two shorter. Shorter people live longer. We have lots of research that shows that after adjusting for other variables, plant protein is healthier overall, and that people should eat less meat and more whole plant foods. Take care.

[@DrFarazHarsini]

Literally did my entire PhD on (mainly muscle) protein structure/function and I'm now a protein expression and characterization scientist. So this protein myth annoys me so much! What bothers me the most is plant proteins are actually much better in quality than animal protein!

[@A.K.00]

​@KZbin Account oh look we got an esteemed student of KZbin University trying to be smartass in front of an actual researcher . I think you should engage with your types and leave real stuff to educated people. Btw, how is YOUR research going? did you do enough google searches and watch enough propaganda videos today?

[@jawdatatasi279]

Ditch the plants, you'll get rid of the forehead acne mic. For real.

[@rebekahblesi7526]

This thumbnail made me really crave lentils. Guess dinner is decided for me today. 😂

[@ericdahl2915]

What I've learned is a money making enterprise that tells their viewers what they want to hear not what they need to hear

[@DoodlesMcpooh]

This channel only exists to make money too.

[@kindcounselor]

I want to stress how impressed I am with your research and analysis. The WFPB health movement is so benefited by your videos where you do the research for us. Thank you so much.

[@purple0795]

that's our brother love ya'll

[@Meekuuh]

Having seen both videos and read a lot of literature about nutrition and dietary guidelines in several countries, I can honestly conclude that there IS a lack of proper nutrition in the US - Period. I personally ate a lot of meat products about 2 years ago, multiple times a day. I have done my meat-eating part, and I can honestly conclude that we all need better nutrition sources in general - and that goes for both vegans and carnivores. In the video he concludes that Soy and Pea Protein isolate is the best plant-based protein form, that you can consume on a Vegetarian/Vegan diet. (Is it wrong? - NO!) But WIL has an agenda, he wants to info-bomb with positive meat-information, and that's okay - That is for his audience! Tell me if I am wrong, but in the world of plant-based diet, there has always been a lack of nutrition coming from natural sources. Like B12 vitamin, and Heme-Iron! (Non-heme iron coming from plants) The amino acid profile in plant-based food is also problematic, but it is doable. My conclusion is then: YOU CAN HAVE A FUNCTIONAL PLANT BASED DIET! But you need to supplement with proper vitamins and minerals - Period! And you need to read up on amino acid profiles, and make sure you eat balanced. Of course, meat is easier on the amino acid profile, B12 vitamins and Heme-iron. (You can't deny that) But you don't have to eat meat to fully function as a human being. Note: I am a flexitarian (I eat plants and dairy products everywhere I can, but if meat is being served, and I have no other options, I will eat meat)

[@Ghost-Toast819]

You seem just as biased, if not more, than this original KZbinr. Not to mention you sound very triggered. Which wouldn’t be a surprise since you are a vegan, so probably super against anything that would suggest meat as being acceptable let alone supierior

[@dalmadominguez4310]

Just so you know the next time you make a video, you don't make a hole in the side of pigs because that is a technique used on ruminants. You would have to reanalyze the sources of your information.

[@Arnond35]

dietary cholesterol ≠ serum cholesterol

[@MarlonS-gj5tb]

finally said.