Proving Calvinism in 45 Minutes w/ Tom Schreiner, Bruce Ware & Stephen Wellum

[@BradTrulove]

I must have missed the part where they proved Calvinism, was it before or after the hour of dodging all their questions?

[@philipjbenjamin]

@@wallywest001 If Calvinists could ESTABLISH their views from the bible - they would. Who doesn't like being right? To establish a doctrine using scripture involves doing more than showing that there are verses which read compatibly with Calvinism - it involves PROVING that obvious alternate interpretations are not viable. The reason why Calvinists don't establish their views from scripture is they cannot. Original sin - Deuteronomy 1:39, Isaiah 7:16 Total depravity - Mark 12:34, Acts 17:22-23 Unconditional election - 2 Peter 1:10, Hebrews 3:12-14 Limited atonement - Romans 5:18, Acts 10:34-35 Irresistible grace - 2 Corinthians 6:1 Perserverance of the saints - see the verses for Unconditional election and also Matthew 24:13. If anyone reading my post cannot see how the verses I present PROVE each Calvinist doctrine to be false - please reply to this post stating which doctrine for which you would like to have a more detailed explanation.

[@ChristisLord2023]

What were the specific questions you didn't hear an answer to, if you post them one at a time I may be able to help you find answers, let's discuss it.

[@DeletedShadowbanned-m5u]

What you have missed is the truth, the gospel, and the Christianity of the Bible. Repent of your false, manmade antichrist religion!

[@DeletedShadowbanned-m5u]

What you have missed is the truth, the gospel, and the Christianity of the Bible. Repent of your false, manmade antichrist religion!

[@IvanEck-h8u]

ChristisLord2023, With the Calvinistic definition of sovereignty, how can you receive the God breathed words found in Deuteronomy 11? I will quote them below. “Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, …”

[@FullCounsel12]

Proving Calvinism as true is like proving that Santa Claus is real. Not possible.

[@toddstevens9667]

What???? Santa isn’t real? Say it ain’t so!!!!

[@chuchucaa]

Santa is more real 😅 Saint Nicholas is santa. 🎅🏽

[@elmerfudd2402]

6:15 - "What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" Romans 9:22-24

[@DeletedShadowbanned-m5u]

The fact is, 99+% of the worlds, and 100% of the churches population were created as vessels of wrath made only to be destroyed.

[@JosephJacksonTV]

The double predestination question can be applied to the arminian viewpoint as well. We should discuss this sometime, fellas! Love the work you do though.

[@Metanoia235]

Same with the question regarding the children. Only in this case it is more troubling for the Arminians. And they usually think this is a gotcha.

[@jeremynethercutt206]

Great men of faith to speak with and speak theology, and being willful servants and slaves to the one true God Father Son and Spirit! thankful for the conversation 🙏

[@truthseeker5698]

Jeremy, your vacant platitudes and assuaging ascension of cult quippers , still did not merit a tulip sticker for your MacArthur study bible.

[@matts.6558]

Calvinists always start with philosophy and logic based on presuppositions. They rarely are capable of handling scripture in its correct context. They favour eisegesis over exegesis

[@user-ld3si9iy6s]

?? is this projection, it's the exact opposite lol

[@matts.6558]

@ give me a scripture and let’s test it. Or what about Eph 1:4, does the pure text and text alone say we are predestined and chosen “to be” in Christ, or days it say we are chosen and predestined “in Him”. Do you see how there could be a major difference as to what this means? Presupposition of the Calvinist adds the “to be” to prove their point when itv isn’t in the text. Let’s hear what you have to say about exegesis of this verse?

[@user-ld3si9iy6s]

@ Instead of asking me to explain what this verse means as if I'm a biblical scholar, why wouldn't you explain how it goes against the Calvinistic view? That's what this debate is about after all.

[@ChristisLord2023]

​@@matts.6558simply put He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. Since the choice was made before we existed to make choices there doesn't seem to be any other way to see it. Either way we weren't there making choices and He knew the choices before the foundation of the world, He doesn't learn from us what choice we will make. So either interpretation is His choosing as to who the 'us' is.

[@toddstevens9667]

I’m afraid every theological perspective relies on presuppositions and logic. Watch a debate between a covenant theologian and a dispensationalist, or between a credobaptist and a paedobaptist, or between a young earth creationist and a theistic evolutionist. They all revolve around different presuppositions and different logical premises.

[@titosantiago3694]

We are to love God with all our mind. God is the logos. We are to use our God given logic in understanding God and His Word not unbiblical man-made theologies like Augustinian-Calvinism.

[@jamestoo1517]

Which command from God says to use our logic

[@truthseeker5698]

@@jamestoo1517 James, ..........the mind................develop your EQ James, if you're willing.

[@jamestoo1517]

@@titosantiago3694 yes that’s what we are commanded.to do from God , not what you can do to understand him( with human logic) . So have you done that ? Have you loved him with your heart mind and soul perfectly?

[@titosantiago3694]

@jamestoo1517 "not with human logic?" Being that God (the logos) created humans in his image (meaning humans have been given logic), so we are image bearers of God who are human with reason and logic, and you're saying we're somehow not to use our God given human faculties to discern truth-but yet you want me to set my God-given human reason and logic aside and listen to some other man's human logic (like yours or others) of his/their man-made human theology, doctrines, and opinions and trust them as true is completely incoherent and self-implodes with contradiction.

[@titosantiago3694]

@jamestoo1517 The reality that God the Creator (Logos) created us in His image as image bearers with God-given reason and logic. Otherwise, He wouldn't command us to "Love Him with our our MIND." BDAG Lexicon mind-dionia-the faculty of thinking, comprehending, and reasoning, understanding, intelligence

[@DanielBShaw]

Calvinism gets it backwards when it comes to the salvation of infants. Jesus died for everyone including all infants. Salvation is by grace alone, but grace can be resisted. People go to hell because they resist God's grace. Infants are unable to resist God's grace. Therefore, children who die in infancy are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ.

[@Bibledingers]

@@DanielBShaw did u watch the video? We covered this

[@DanielBShaw]

@Bibledingers I watched the video. You covered the topic, but there were a lot of uncertainties and caveats.

[@josephconkle3947]

So, you therefore believe regeneration precedes faith. Since babies can't exercise faith.

[@DanielBShaw]

​@@josephconkle3947 I believe faith and regeneration occur simultaneously. Faith is a gift from God, not an act of the will.

[@josephconkle3947]

@DanielBShaw how can babies exercise faith to be regenerated?

[@jasonhed]

I can prove Calvinism is false in ten seconds. Because if Calvinism were true, the word “if” would not be in the Bible.

[@TwitchyTheologian]

😂

[@toddstevens9667]

That’s silly.

[@johnmott887]

"If" is our perspective because we aren't God. God's perspective tive is "since".

[@jasonhed]

@ That’s funny. The god of Calvinism, who is also the author of all evil, needs to put the word “if” in the Bible, even though this phoney religion posits that everything is predetermined, and we are too stupid to see why…. Yeah…. Nice religion. Keep these explanations coming! Great entertainment and demonstration of cognitive dissonance! Haha.

[@travismayselah]

Smack on and all these Calvinist don’t even know what your talking about, it’s like a cult man!

[@APercussionLife]

What a panel 🔥

[@seanvann1747]

Min 5:00 Why are we born under condemnation and fallen in such a way that we unable to respond positively to the Gospel appeal? Thanks 👍

[@Manofwar7]

Total depravity does not mean total inability. That's what "calvinist" pour into scripture yet it cannot be found. They do it to make thier theology work. IMO.

[@seanvann1747]

@Manofwar7 💯 in agreement 🤝

[@TwitchyTheologian]

Romans 5 teaches that Adam represented all of mankind. When Adam sinned we all sinned in him. Psalm 51:5 teaches that we are born sinners. Due to our slavery to sin(John8) Jesus teaches that we are unable to respond to the Gospel call (John 6:44). Now, as to why that is, the only answer is because God ordained it to be that way. God resigns all to sin so that He may receive 100 percent of the glory for the salvation of those that He has chosen, redeemed, and caused to be born again (Ephesians 1:4, 2:1-10).

[@seanvann1747]

@TwitchyTheologian So the nature that one is born with, one that is fallen, under condemnation, and will always reject God and on thier way to hell is one that God Himself decreed for man to be born with correct? So God makes all men sinners with an inability to respond positively to the Gospel call so that He can get glory for saving a few and sending the rest to hell correct? Nothing in John 6:44 says man is unable to respond positively to the Gospel call just that they need to be called 😉 Thanks 👍

[@truthseeker5698]

What an encouragement to see the growth of those who confront and call out calvinism. Jesus is smiling. Thank you for your post.👍👍

Stephen Wellum, author of the best book in Christology: God the Son Incarnate. Huge respect to him.

[@SethYoderMusic]

Honest question after reaching the 10:54 mark. I don't consider myself a Calvinist, but we agree that God will get glory from also displaying wrath and justice, and that He was not obligated to save even one man. With these two premises in mind, would Christ's crucifixion still have served its purpose of reconciling all things to God (like it says in Colossians 1) even if all men would have rejected His offer by their ability to freely choose? In other words, is there another purpose Christ's death/resurrection would have served even if all humanity rejected it? Hopefully that makes sense. It's a fairly complex question that I'm having trouble wording succinctly.

[@4jchan]

You're implying that Christ's atoning work on the cross can actually save no one. Matthew 7:13-14 13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. The problem with libertarian free will is that it makes people's choices or destinies completely uncertain. But we are told in Matt 7:13-14 that there will certainly be some who will be saved.

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

Why are you asking and concerned with such a non relevant question? What you need to be concerned with is your 100% fake antichrist christianity. You do not even know what the gospel is or what the Christianity of the Bible is. Get away from everything that claims to be the church and throw out all the unbiblical nonsense the 100% apostate church has indoctrinated you with and read the Bible yourself only! Do not ever listen to anyone from any church, not ever.

[@SethYoderMusic]

@@4jchan I agree that, in reality (non-hypothetically) there are people who will be saved by Christ's atoning work. (Thank God!!!) I've heard before that love cannot be pure or true if it is coerced, but that it must be freely given. I tend to agree, though I can't point to a biblical passage to prove such. But that idea makes sense to me. The Bible in various places describes our eternal reward with the qualifier that WE love Him. For example, Romans 8:28 - "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." Or James 1:12 - "Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him." But in Calvinism, nobody wants to positively respond to the Gospel, so God has to regenerate them first (against their will) so that they will love Him. It doesn't seem like true love if God has to alter their very nature so that they will then love Him.

[@4jchan]

@@SethYoderMusic I disagree. The claim that for love to be genuine it has to be free in the sense that it must be possible to reject God in order to be possible to love God. That is the free will defense which doesn't really explain WHY there is ACTUAL evil but only that evil must be POSSIBLE in order to have the possibility to love. But libertarian free will denies that motives exist. There is no reason as to why we choose what we choose. So you wouldn't be able to say that you take care of your wife BECAUSE you love her. You cannot be motivated by love if motives don't exist. Since God does regenerate people's heart to love him it is real love because the heart is what determines our choices or actions. This is genuine love because it's motivated by love. If you don't believe that God can change a person's heart then how do you explain the fact that in the next life we will love God perfectly without ever sinning? And it is due to the fact that we will be made perfect by the Holy Spirit. So not having the ability to reject God does not negate genuine love for God.

[@SethYoderMusic]

Ok, I see your point about being perfected by the HS so that we can love perfectly. That’s a good point. But I’m guessing that saying libertarian free will denies the existence of motives is on the level of saying Calvinism makes us all robots. That seems like a gross misrepresentation of what libertarian free will would teach, but I don’t actually know much at all about LFW, so maybe what you say regarding the motives thing is a fundamental component of their argument. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@John-Christchurch-NZ]

Why do Calvinists assume that understanding God starts with their presuppositions (TULIP)? The God they describe is vastly different from the Father that Jesus revealed and the narrative of the Bible does not align with the inquiries they make of it. It is not merely a philosophy; it concerns a Living, interactive God. Is God for humanity, desiring and yearning to restore fellowship with us, or is He indifferent to humanity, so angered by sin that we should feel fortunate He even acknowledges us? That is not my Jesus. That is not my God. Logical and theological reasoning is not incorrect, but there is nothing rational about Calvinism when it is detached from their theology. It is their premises that lack logic. Calvinism does not align with the Bible; it is so philosophical that they impose their philosophy onto the Scriptures. Regarding OSAS, Salvation is about a relationship, not a formula. You either have a relationship, in which case you are aware of it, or you do not. If a=b, then b must equal c. I doubt God would want us to interpret scripture in that manner, yet that is what I frequently hear from Calvinists. They must reinterpret scripture to conform to their presuppositions or established doctrines. Non-Calvinists do not need to address the questions (c) because the premise (a=b) is flawed from the outset.

[@Rhall6451]

The flesh profits nothing, but the Spirit is the one who gives life. Do not work for things that are perishable, but work for things eternal, which the son of Man will GIVE to you. The work of God is to BELIEVE in the one who He sent. No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him, and the Son will never not ever cast him out. You can't even see the kingdom of God unless you are born again. The wind blows, hear it but you don't know where it came from or where it's going; so is everyone is born of the Spirit. My sheep hear my voice and they follow, you don't believe because you are not of my sheepfold. God so loved the world that whoever BELIEVES in the Son shall be saved. I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation. You say a Calvinist brings philosophy into the biblical text. I just gave you the gospel with verses pieced together from various texts in John. (In every context Jesus is speaking of eternal salvation.) Show us the verse that says.. "Thou shalt have a relationship with God to be saved." Now if you were honest with yourself you'd admit that you are bringing your OWN philosophy into the text and interpreting from that lens. While the statement "Christianity is a relationship" isn't necessarily untrue, it's unable to capture the biblical expression of fellowship with God. What that is in the mind must be trained by the testimony of Scripture then lived out BY FAITH. Stick to the words of Scripture and you can't go wrong. We believe the Gospel, thus we are saved unto good works, living a life of spiritual sacrifices pleasing to our God who in His great mercy gave us what we did not deserve. Salvation is unmerited, always by GRACE, and without receiving a new heart from God Himself (Jer 31), we are totally unable to walk in His ways. In all this we have full confidence that our God is able to save us and bring the good work He started in us to completion. By faith, unified to Christ, evident by the Holy Spirit's dwelling in our hearts. I'll say it again, I AM NOT ASHAMED OF GOSPEL. So why are you? Is it wrong for God to choose who He saves? Do all go to heaven, or do many go to hell? Did God declare the beginning from the end of not? Do you not choose people in your life to receive a special kind of love reserved for no one else? Wrestle with the truth friend. God choosing us in Christ is the most personal act of love and acceptance EVER. If "your Jesus" didn't choose you from the foundation of the world, then you certainly don't have the Jesus of the Scriptures in your heart.

[@lewislibre]

Where does the Bible teach salvation is about relationship? Salvation is about being justified by faith which then brings us into relationship with God

[@ReformedRookie]

TULIP was a response to Jacob Arminius' 5 points....

[@truthseeker5698]

Calvinist introspection and questioning of themselves is more rare than a spotted unicorn.

[@mrupholsteryman]

I would say that Scripture interpreting Scripture does show that God does desire none perish and IS self sufficient and we don't need bodyguards to protect His glory from being tainted or to protect His people from Himself.... Bible does say that His people perish due to a lack of knowledge...this same knowledge can come from a proper fear of the Lord...beginning of wisdom. He desires that none perish. And that all would repent. He is not a robot and needs not force grace or belief. Love wouldn't be genuine and nor would obedience....if so....even satan would have claim to be given a crown of obedient follower of God ....😏🤪🙃 All that and still we have the sins being forgiven of the ignorant and God so loving the world and Jesus not condemning the world...but saving it through Him. Are these not also the character of God? How do you TULIP folks determine how God interprets those that are leading people to stray or sin or stumble ...if everyone is predetermined to go where they are going and how? TULIP seems to point all the problems back at God no different than Adam blamed God for the reason they were hiding...blamed the woman that God made listening to the serpent (that God made) that offered her the fruit that the tree (that God made) produced....and for His glory to be shown they hid from Him???? How do you interpret that part of Scripture that points out that nobody will die for another's sin? Like a father for their child's sin or a child for their father's sin....? Do you see God as a Wrathful God in a hurry and race to destroy His creation faster than satan? Or even ourselves? Seems as though the panel wasn't all that diverse... As far as the gov't goes... it IS placed by God...but (rightly dividing the truth) it became faulty like in Jeremiah where the clay BECAME corrupt....not forced that way to begin with) But this gov't has fallen in love with the mammon and it is a root of all kinds of evil...but the gov't is not the replacement Savior.... God's Only Son Permits Eternal Life! 😇🙏💪

[@DeletedShadowbanned-m5u]

You have spoken in total ignorance exposing your unsaved, spiritually dead, blind, lost, and deceived state, as well as to why you have been snared into the Godless worlds 100% false, manmade, antichrist, freewill gospel. God desires that none of his chosen ones that are less than 1% of the worlds population should not perish, not anyone else. God absolutely, 100% forces the very, very, very few who he has chosen to believe. The few who actually believe were all 100% forced to believe. Just like those like you are forced not to believe. God is the one in control here, not you or me. Who do you think you are to question God? God does not answer to you or to any other man. Go and read Job Ch. 38 and Ch. 40. The fact is, you know nothing and are nothing but a brute beast made only to be destroyed, and this is precisely why you have been snared into the Godless worlds antichrist freewill gospel. All you freewillers are all God haters and are all hated by God as you will all find out on judgement day.

[@EDCREVIEWS]

The Bible is clear that salvation is offered to all men, YET all men reject God and none will seek after Him. Therefore He graciously has mercy on some in spite of ourselves and gives us a new heart and put His Spirit within us.

[@matts.6558]

Romans 3 does NOT teach that all men outright reject and cannot even seek or choose the mercy of God. Rather in it’s correct context and quoting of the Psalms, it teaches nobody, whether Jew or Gentile, is righteous under the Law, which whether Jew or Gentile, all men know this because the Law is written on our conscience, so whether it is written down like it was for the Jews, or whether written intangibly in the case of gentiles, all men know of their sin. This flows perfectly from Romans 2, and Roman’s 1 where Paul states all men should know God exists because of physical creation and are without excuse. Romans 3 in no way teaches men are totally incapable of seeking after God and accepting the gospel. Acts 17 completely disagrees with the idea of total inability to seek God.

[@philipjbenjamin]

This cannot be so - without the conclusion having to be that God is not merciful. If a man is respectful to women on odd days of the year - but not on even days of the year - cannot be called respectful to women - then a 'god' who is merciful sometimes - but not at other times - cannot be called merciful. And therefore Calvinism is primary doctrinal failure. It's that simple. (Calvinists argue that no-one deserves mercy - but while this is true - it is irrelevant - we aren't talking about what people deserve - we are talking about the way God behaves).

[@EDCREVIEWS]

@matts.6558 it's not inability. It's unwillingness

[@EDCREVIEWS]

@philipjbenjamin " Who are you, oh man, who answers back to God?

[@TwitchyTheologian]

@@EDCREVIEWSwith respect, the phrase is total inability. They are unable because they are unwilling that is true. They are unwilling bc they have evil hearts. I’m a Calvinist. I’m just making sure people understand what you are saying.

[@GeeTee5.2]

as a calvinist they didnt prove calvinism but enjoyed the discussion on various topics. these are good, godly men. ptL.

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

That is because none of these guys are Christians. Just because someone claims to be a Calvinist or is willing to go along with it does NOT make them a Christian.

[@mariomene2051]

18:04 Since Jesus says the angels of the "little ones" daily behold the face of God, how could they be in a state of condemnation?

[@ChristisLord2023]

If you read from the beginning of chapter 18 it is actually clear from the context He is referring to believers being the children of God, not just little children. Verses 3 and 4 are where this comparison is made. Thank you for the question that was based in scripture and not just emotional opinion, that is how we should all approach these difficult topics.

[@mariomene2051]

@ChristisLord2023 Yeah, it really does seem to hand the baton off to believers, metaphorical little children, after having begun with the literal little children.

[@DeletedShadowbanned-m5u]

You simply do not at all understand the Bible. Same as ALL the other people snared into the church.

[@ChristisLord2023]

@DeletedShadowbanned-m5u snared? I think that requires an explanation, especially since the statement indicates that you understand better.

[@DeletedShadowbanned-m5u]

@@ChristisLord2023 ,..Yes, of course. All the people of ALL the churches have been snared into the church that is all 100% apostate. The church is a trap and no actual Christian is snared by it. Only those who do not belong to God can become snared into the apostate church and into its antichrist christianity. There are two Christianity's, one real and the other fake. What everything known as the church preaches/sells is the antichrist christianity of the Godless people of the Godless world. The other Christianity that is made up of the few who Jesus came to save all have nothing whatsoever to do with anything known as the church. The real church is a spiritual church, not a physical church.

[@elmerfudd2402]

2:26 - Is it really any different if God "knows that someone will choose to reject Christ", yet He creates them anyway knowing that He will send them to hell?

[@DeletedShadowbanned-m5u]

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the false manmade unbiblical idea that God knows who will choose him. God created 99% of the people of the world to be brute beasts made only to be destroyed. These are who fill all the apostate churches that all have no idea what the truth, the gospel, or the Christianity of the Bible actually is. 2 Peter 2:12 "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" Jude 1:10 "But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves." Romans 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

[@ReformedRookie]

this was great- thank you

[@paulsemakula8600]

I’m not a Calvinist and I think there were some more fundamental issues that needs to be addressed prior to even having the tulip conversation ie determinism vs libertarian freedom as that’s the interpretative grid that these conversations and reading of these texts seem to be had in. However, I appreciate this discussion 😊

[@chrisarmstrong3200]

I think its ok to defend Gods character in the face of an absence of scripture ,I would rather comfort a grieving mother by voicing the goodness and mercy of God than to say " nope ,burning in hell"since the scripture does not say babies are damned .

[@DigoryCavor]

This is really refreshing after listening to the queen of Analogesis, Leighton Flowers.

[@AgnelloAffonso-xp5gm]

Dave Hunts video WHAT LOVE IS THIS, book too,

[@toddstevens9667]

I read that book. I threw it away. Just plain nonsense.

[@FullCounsel12]

@@toddstevens9667 lol. If you think Dave hunts book is nonsense than you are beyond saving. Give me one example of something in his book that you think is nonsense

[@toddstevens9667]

I read it 20 years ago. And threw it away. So I don’t remember much. But what sticks out in my mind is his attack on Calvin himself. Since Calvin died before Calvinism was created by Beza, I thought he didn’t do much research before writing the book. Calvinism is a reaction to Arminius’s attacks that happened after Calvin died.

[@toddstevens9667]

But I will tell you that I’m not a Calvinist. I believe 1 of the five points. I completely deny the T, the U, the L, and the I of TULIP. And my understanding of P is probably very different than the Calvinist understanding of P. I just thought Hunt’s book was weak, shallow, and not well researched.

[@EdwardPhaneuf-v6u]

Calvinism is an insult to the character of God obscured by a focus on flaws of man.

[@mariomene2051]

23:38 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God” Deuteronomy 29:29

[@philipjbenjamin]

If there is any question mark over the cross in respect of God's character - all that it would take for there to be a question mark over the cross is if we could not identify which part of God's unchanging character (Mal 3:6, Heb 13:8) is responsible for both showing mercy and NOT showing mercy - this while God is supposedly unchanging in mercy - then all of Christianity falls.

[@mariomene2051]

Guys, include replies to comments when you tally comments up, and you'll see YT's comments tally is correct, and comments aren't being erased by the hosts. 🎉

[@Bibledingers]

@@mariomene2051 we don’t delete comments ever.

[@mariomene2051]

@Bibledingers Sometimes, when edited, an "edit not saved" (slt) error appears when submitting edit--it just got deleted (not by the host). 🎉

[@Bibledingers]

@@mariomene2051 we’re a page that welcomes debates and gracious conversations. Everyone has a bias BUT we welcome dialogue. We wouldn’t delete comments just because we don’t agree with their points.

[@toddstevens9667]

Actually, the KZbin AI removes comments too. Often, it doesn’t even allow comments to post.

[@DeletedShadowbanned-m5u]

@@Bibledingers ,.."we don’t delete comments ever." This is because I have not commented yet here. When I begin to comment, you will be doing a lot of deleting as when the actual truth of Gods word appears, you will all be offended by it.

[@toddstevens9667]

Looks like y’all knew how to title this video to get the most views. Lol. But I love these three theologians. I’m currently reading Ware’s The Man Christ Jesus. Excellent book. These scholars are so much more than just Calvinists. They are first-rate scholars.

[@Bibledingers]

@@toddstevens9667 absolutely! Lol

[@matts.6558]

Romans 3 does NOT teach that all men outright reject and cannot even choose the mercy of God. Rather in it’s correct context and quoting of the Psalms, it teaches nobody, whether Jew or Gentile, is righteous under the Law, which whether Jew or Gentile, all men one this because the Law is written in our conscience, so whether written it is written down like it was for the Jews, all men know of their sin. This flows perfectly from Romans 2, and Roman’s 1 where Paul states all men should know God exists because of physical creation and are without excuse. Romans 3 in no way teaches men are totally incapable of seeking after God and accepting the gospel. Acts 17 completely disagrees with the idea of total inability to seek God.

[@philipjbenjamin]

Extremely helpful.

[@josephconkle3947]

Romans 1 doesn't say everyone "should" know God exists, it says everyone "DOES" know. See, your philosophy lead you to the wrong interpretation of scripture. Which leads you to the wrong conclusion of Romans 3.

[@matts.6558]

@@josephconkle3947 I would actually be fine with somebody taking it further and saying Romans 1 says everyone "does know", that only strengthens my argument and aligns with what I already wrote.

[@matts.6558]

@@josephconkle3947 Mind exegeting and providing your interpretation of Acts 17:24-27 and how this jives with Calvinism? “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

[@josephconkle3947]

@matts.6558 actually it magnifies your error. Romans 3 says there are NONE who seek after God. You have to twist the meaning and tell us what it DOESN'T SAY to give it a different meaning. That's text book eisegesis.

[@saularana1169]

Hi guys

[@Bibledingers]

Hi Saul 💙

[@Ex-Cult2Exalt]

I believe Calvinism can be proven in Gods sovereignty alone. However I definitely understand the reasons for the debate.

[@paulsemakula8600]

Question. All Christian’s believe (or should believe) in God’s sovereignty. The question is how you are defining it? We all believe that God is sovereign like a king is sovereign over his land but I think what Calvinist mean is more than that God is ruler but rather in addition to that is that God is determining everything that occurs in space and time including all our thoughts and desires. This is where the difference is. So to say God’s sovereignty settles the question is to engage in assuming what is at debate.

[@SethYoderMusic]

I do not understand how even Calvinists cannot, with confidence, immediately shun the notion of infant damnation. Infant damnation is not supported in Scripture at all. At least not that I've seen. On the contrary, there are many passages that seem to praise children. Jesus said let the little children come to me. You must become like a child to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. David seemed to think he would eventually go to be with his deceased child who was born of Bathsheba. There is a passage in Numbers (?) that escapes me at the moment, but it suggests that young children do not hold the same level of accountability and responsibility, because they were not penalized in the wilderness like their rebellious parents. The son will not be punished for the sins of the father. Even in Romans 9, it says something like, "before Jacob or Esau did anything good OR bad," suggesting that total depravity cannot mean that infants are born immediately guilty of committing sin. At the very least, many Calvinists need to rethink what total depravity means, because it's disgusting and unbiblical (imo) to think that non-elect babies are going to hell, which would imply that they are going to be punished under God's wrath for sins they did not commit. It has also caused unnecessary distress to mothers who are afraid their babies might die and go to hell. This is not a hard question, but unfortunately, the Calvinistic framework does make it a hard question. At least we can agree that God will never commit an injustice against anyone.

[@toddstevens9667]

@@SethYoderMusic Calvinistic baptists almost universally reject the idea that dead infants are cast into hell. It’s mainly the Presbyterian versions of Calvinism that vacillate on the issue.

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

You, like everyone else here are completely wrong about everything you believe. None of you have any actual Biblical understanding. Here is the truth of the Bible for your edification, all babies are conceived and born 100% spiritually dead. All babies/children if they die will be thrown into the lake of fire. There is no case in the Bible of anyone being a Christian (saved person) until they were an adult. The 100% false unbiblical idea of babies/children not being thrown into the lake of fire only comes from the apostate church and from its antichrist chrtistianity. Again, the whole problem is, you are completely spiritually dead as are all children and this makes you Biblically illiterate, as are all the people of all the churches. If they were not totally Biblically illiterate, they would not have anything to do with anything known as the church. All those who reject "Calvinism" are all God haters, and are all hated by God. Repent!

[@thecrew777]

Let's start out with we're all fallen and headed for hell, okay? We're cockroaches, and God would have every right to send in Pest Control to fumigate. But - in His love, He has allowed us to have life on this earth. He actually saved Noah and his family. So here we are. Second, there is no earthly reason ANY ONE of us should go to heaven. Ever. None of us can earn our way there. So, that some are chosen to go is astounding. No one can say "Well, I wanted to choose..." because that shows that person DIDN'T choose. That's on each of us. Today is the day of salvation.

[@chuchucaa]

Good podcast. I will learn more about calvinism; so far I think they have good arguments but it's not the fullness of Truth.

[@Bibledingers]

@@chuchucaa brother, we are all learning. Keep reading the word. Let us know how we can pray for you

[@TwitchyTheologian]

You should bring me on to prove Calvinism. I’m basically a professional at it at this point lol 😂

[@philipjbenjamin]

Here are verses which show that each TULIP doctrine - and original sin - is false doctrine. Original sin - Deuteronomy 1:39, Isaiah 7:16 Total depravity - Mark 12:34, Acts 17:22-23 Unconditional election - 2 Peter 1:10, Hebrews 3:12-14 Limited atonement - Romans 5:18, Acts 10:34-35 Irresistible grace - 2 Corinthians 6:1 Perserverance of the saints - see the verses for Unconditional election and also Matthew 24:13. If anyone reading my post cannot see how the verses I present PROVE each Calvinist doctrine to be false - please reply to this post stating the doctrine for which you would like to have a more detailed explanation.

[@coreyblack5]

Still nope. I’d rather be dead than Calvinist.

[@user-ld3si9iy6s]

You'd rather be dead than believe the truth the bible brings? that's scary

[@chrisarmstrong3200]

actually Jesus did not say they committed miracles and did good works and cast out demons in his name ,they said that about themselves ,for they were deceived .this teaching really says"its not by works of righteousness which we have done but by his mercy that he saves us"this understanding will help you to teach others that think that those that are not saved can somehow do real miracles and really cast out demons,the demons probably laughed and played along just to keep up the deception.

[@Watchmanonthewall77]

your take on the Godhead sounds a lot like modalism.

[@DeletedShadowbanned-m5u]

The Bible clearly tells us, God absolutely "picks" people for hell, just as he picks a few for salvation. 2 Peter 2:12 "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" Jude 1:10 "But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves." Romans 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:" End of story!

[@paulring86]

The first 2 you posted clearly refute your initial statement. Romans 9 is very complex- but doesn't say what you think it says if you read it in context.

[@DeletedShadowbanned-m5u]

@@paulring86 ,...No, sorry, they do not! The Bible tells us God made two kinds of people, people with two different destiny's. He created 99+% of the people of the world as vessels of wrath and brute beasts made only to be destroyed, and the remaining few as his chosen ones, his elect, his bride, the remnant. You, (all freewillers) being completely spiritually dead and blind have no ability to understand the truths of the Bible. And you have no business telling the spiritually alive what the truths of the Bible are. Instead of listening to the spiritually alive (the actual Christians) you refuse to listen to them, you revile them, and accuse them because this is your destiny, what you were created to do. As I am sure you know, in the Bible those who accuse the actual Christians are called the devil, the accuser of the brethren (the actual Christians). There of course, is no such thing as the devil/satan and these words are only references to Godless mankind, and Godless mankind shows this clearly when they reject the truths of the Bible and accuse those who bring them the truth of Gods word as Clavin did, that they hate and accuse them as not being what they actually are. There are no people who are more Biblically illiterate, more willingly ignorant, and more opposed to the truth of the Bible than are those who claim to be Christians.

[@toddstevens9667]

@@paulring86 So what context do you think his comment is missing in Romans 9?

[@toddstevens9667]

How do you think he misinterpreted Romans 9?

[@hewhohasearstohearlethimhe9509]

@@paulring86 ,...No, sorry, they do not! The Bible tells us God made two kinds of people, people with two different destiny's. He created 99+% of the people of the world as vessels of wrath and brute beasts made only to be destroyed, and the remaining few as his chosen ones, his elect, his bride, the remnant. You, (all freewillers) being completely spiritually dead and blind have no ability to understand the truths of the Bible. And you have no business telling the spiritually alive what the truths of the Bible are. Instead of listening to the spiritually alive (the actual Christians) you refuse to listen to them, you revile them, and accuse them because this is your destiny, what you were created to do. As I am sure you know, in the Bible those who accuse the actual Christians are called the devil, the accuser of the brethren (the actual Christians). There of course, is no such thing as the devil/satan and these words are only references to Godless mankind, and Godless mankind shows this clearly when they reject the truths of the Bible and accuse those who bring them the truth of Gods word as Clavin did, that they hate and accuse them as not being what they actually are. There are no people who are more Biblically illiterate, more willingly ignorant, and more opposed to the truth of the Bible than are those who claim to be Christians.

[@jolookstothestars6358]

Proving calvinism can't be true in 1 second....the little big word....IF..... can't be in scripture. 😱

[@chrisarmstrong3200]

I think that there is an age of accountability that is different for all persons including the mentally impaired,for God does choose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

[@paulring86]

I heard a lot of philosophical contentions. Didn't hear any rational arguments for how the Bible teaches Calvinism- which should be at the heart of the argument. Sadly Calvinists know they can't take that approach because the Bible has to be bent to Calvinist philosophy, rather than bending their philosophy to match what the Bible teaches.

[@toddstevens9667]

I don’t think they were really trying to prove Calvinism. They were sort of assuming Calvinist perspective from the beginning.

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

That is because none of these guys are Christians. Just because someone claims to be a Calvinist or is willing to go along with it does NOT make them a Christian. Do not be deceived, there is no one who is a Christian that does not understand what Calvin understood! Repent of your fake, manmade, antichrist gospel/christianity!

[@GaryMeissner-h1f]

Calvinist is the most accurate

[@luisrafaelayala777]

You can never come to Calvinist conclusions by just reading the Bible. This is all after reading Calvinistic material.

[@TwitchyTheologian]

I have heard of many people coming to Calvinism by just reading Scripture

[@toddstevens9667]

That’s obviously untrue lol

I did. 🤷

[@Metanoia235]

So you can read Rom 8 without pondering predestination could be true? Or Eph 1?

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

Actually, the exact opposite of what you stated is the truth. The ONLY way anyone can come to the 100% unbiblical conclusion of the freewill gospel is to be a spiritually dead and blind person who has been deceived by spiritually dead and blind leaders the apostate church. What the spiritually dead and blind call "Calvinism" comes only from the Bible and from an actual understanding of the Bible. Your antichrist (another) gospel only comes from listening to and being deceived by the blind guides of the 100% apostate church. There is no one (an actual Christian) who understands what Calvin understood that came to that conclusion after reading Calvin. They all already understood it. Again, if you were not completely spiritually dead and accursed of God you would know this truth.

[@EdwardPhaneuf-v6u]

Calvinism is an insult to the character of God obscured by a focus on flaws of man.

[@matts.6558]

22:10, if God always does what is right and what is just, how exactly is it just to preprogram people (Calvinism’s non-elect) to sin WITHOUT any chance of accepting the gospel, yet still hold them accountable for their sin AND not accepting the gospel? That is completely unjust to hold someone accountable for what they cannot do. Worse off to hold them accountable for what they were designed to do in their default state. That’s based on straight facts not emotions. There has to be a decision proposition of either or in order for judgement to be just. Calvinists attempt to use emotional weakness as both a critique of their opponents and a suppression mechanism to its proponents to not think about the factual and logical implications of their system and the way it characterizes God.

[@toddstevens9667]

You clearly didn’t pay much attention to what they actually said.

[@truthseeker5698]

3:40-4:05 The unstable double minded appeal to tension compatibilism. I really hope all Calvinist move to northern Greenland.

[@luisrafaelayala777]

Calvinism is false! There are no bible verses that say Calvinist distinctives. Election, predestination, and chosen, it's never in regards to salvation but to a specific work. Therefore, what God is really choosing before the foundation of the world is exactly what the Bible says chosen to be holy, blameless, etcetera. Just keep reading.

[@toddstevens9667]

Lol

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

What you fail to understand is, you, and all those like you, are reading the Bible as a spiritually dead and blind person. You do not have the ability to understand the Bible. You only have the ability to misunderstand the Bible. And this is precisely why you are a freewiller and fail to understand the truth of the Bible that Calvin understood. You do not just have the gospel/salvation all wrong, everything you believe and hold to is Biblically incorrect. Your whole fake antichrist christianity is all a manmade fraud. Repent!

[@stephenweinhardt8794]

Nah, you’re making too much sense. You clearly haven’t watched enough Mcarthur sermons. You need to read more scripture (AKA Systematic Theology)

[@hewhohasearstohearlethimhe9509]

Actually, the exact opposite of what you stated is the truth. The ONLY way anyone can come to the 100% unbiblical conclusion of the freewill gospel is to be a spiritually dead and blind person who has been deceived by spiritually dead and blind leaders the apostate church. What the spiritually dead and blind call "Calvinism" comes only from the Bible and from an actual understanding of the Bible. Your antichrist (another) gospel only comes from listening to and being deceived by the blind guides of the 100% apostate church. There is no one (an actual Christian) who understands what Calvin understood that came to that conclusion after reading Calvin. They all already understood it. Again, if you were not completely spiritually dead and accursed of God you would know this truth.

[@hewhohasearstohearlethimhe9509]

What you fail to understand is, you, and all those like you, are reading the Bible as a spiritually dead and blind person. You do not have the ability to understand the Bible. You only have the ability to misunderstand the Bible. And this is precisely why you are a freewiller and fail to understand the truth of the Bible that Calvin understood. You do not just have the gospel/salvation all wrong, everything you believe and hold to is Biblically incorrect. Your whole fake antichrist christianity is all a manmade fraud. Repent!

[@PaDutchRunner]

Baptists don’t like 1 Cor 7:14 on the baby question.

[@toddstevens9667]

I don’t think that they don’t like it. I think they would say that it has nothing to do with baptism. Baptism isn’t mentioned or even inferred in the passage. They would suggest that baptism has a particular theological meaning that 1 Cor. 7:14 does not address.

[@PaDutchRunner]

@@toddstevens9667 Although I do believe it has application to baptism, I'm referring to their noticeable lack of reference to this text when address the never-easy pastoral question of "children who die at infancy saved"? I believe that, at least when the parents are believers (who are typically the only parents who ask this question) have this issue, 1 Corinthians 7:14 is the most straightforward answer; and yes, Voddie is wrong when he calls the children of believers "vipers in diapers"

[@toddstevens9667]

Your response isn’t showing up here, but I read it in my emails. But that verse says nothing whatsoever about salvation, baptism, or infants. So I’m very confused about what you see there. I’m a child of believers. Am I heaven-bound regardless of my relationship to Jesus?

[@PaDutchRunner]

@@toddstevens9667 The children of believers (or indeed, even children where only one parent is a believer) are "holy" - meaning, presumed to be regenerate covenant members until proven otherwise. As such, we can safely presume that a child who dies as a fully-fledged member of the covenant community of special grace is saved.

[@PaDutchRunner]

@@toddstevens9667 "Child" meaning so young that we must presume regeneration unless/until the child proves otherwise with a contrary confession.

[@BiblicalMuse]

I read with much profit from all of these men, but not on the subject of Calvinism. Such an absurd and misguided notion as divine determinism of all men’s choices is indefensible.

[@MrConsto]

Those in error trying to prove they are right about their error and self congratulating themselves about how much they know about their error No Calvinist can reject Calvinism because he is given ivermectin to Calvinism by God due to their intellectual pride or pride of false humility. First they must repent of their pride and then they can be led to the truth. It’s futile arguing with someone who doesn’t want to admit they have come to the table with presuppositions

[@gabrielcupsa5669]

I have a God who left His glory and came to earth, became one of us, so we can be saved. The God you describe is very narcissist; you speak a lot of "for his glory". He did not chose all humanity for his own glory. He leaves so many to go to hell just because is so narcissist. This doesn't looks like my God.

[@iglesiadedios.8816]

Disproving Calvinism you mean???

[@titosantiago3694]

Inconsisties and contradictions in the fest 5-10 minutes shows Calvinism is false.

[@fcastellanos57]

Many error are in this video. First, the Almighty God has reconciled the whole world to himself by the death of his son. Not only what Calvinist called “the elect” but everyone who responds in faith to the righteousness the Creator expect us to carry in our lives. God says in Ezekiel 18:23 “ Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?” To say that the Creator chooses some is no not understand that the Creator has forgiven mankind and wants everyone to repent and stop living wickedly. It is a complete error of Calvinism and a mischaracterization of the Creator to think that only some chosen without any involvement on their part, are actually saved. Also, in minute 30, a statement has been made which is false. No one is a christian for believing Jesus is God, nothing in the scripture says that, it is a pop culture error that unfortunately has gotten into christianity. Being a Christian was to accept Jesus as the Messiah, the son of God, not God. Also, Jesus is a human being born of a woman born under the Law as Paul states in Galatian 4:4, Jesus was conceived in Mary by the Father as stated in Luke 1:26-35, also in Matthew 16;16, Jesus agreed and commended Peter for saying that “ you are the Christ, the son of the living God”, which is the same that John says in John20:30-31. No Jesus is not God or has two natures that is false.

[@TwitchyTheologian]

So according to you, Jesus didn’t reconcile anyone. He merely made man reconcilable. Jesus didn’t redeem anyone. He just made them redeemable. Got it

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

Sorry, you are completely wrong with everything you stated and everything you have been deceived to believe. Jesus did NOT die for anyone other than the very, very, very few who are Gods chosen ones that make up less than 1% of the world. the remaining 99% are all vessels of wrath made only to be destroyed as the Bible clearly tells you. These are all those who fill and make up everything known as the church that is all 100% apostate. You are NOT a Christian! Nor is anyone snared into anything that claims to be a/the church. Just because people claim to be Calvinists does not make them Christians. Understanding what Calvin understood is only the correct understanding of one Biblical truth. Christians understand ALL of the Bibles truths, not just a few of them.

[@ThePreacherman9]

Calvinism is a false Gospel from the Pitts of Hell

[@travismayselah]

“God looks at who He wants to save”???? But God in His mercy, He chooses some to be saved.” You must not be able to hear yourself. It’s Glorious for God to CHOOSE who He wants to elect, but you have to admit He chooses who He doesn’t want… FACTs! You hide behind,” Well He’s God!”. But you’ve defined Gods attributes by making these claims… Don’t apply logic. Haha Run from these guys!

[@mrgrossism]

They tried. 😉

[@pdkonkol]

Video is 1hr long. Typical Calvinist

[@Bibledingers]

😂😂 favorite comment so far

[@ThePristineFaith]

Calvinists are greatly deceived.

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

There is no one who is a Christian that does not understand what Calvin understood! Repent of your fake, manmade, antichrist gospel/christianity!

[@thetruthcartel]

This was horrible. I would love to talk to you gentlemen about the text. Eternal security, Election So on...You up for it?

[@hudsontd7778]

Cringe Heaven.

[@tedroybal5231]

I don't need 45 minutes to show Calvinism is absolutely false. Acts 11 says that after Peter's testimony concerning the household of Cornelius, the apostles and beleivers glorified God saying. "Then to the Gentiles also God has* granted* repentance that leads to life.” We all know that repentance means to CHANGE YOUR MIND.

[@Joebob23-x4q]

Calvin crap

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

What the spiritually dead and blind call "Calvinism" is the truth, the gospel, and the Christianity of the Bible. Anything else is another gospel/christianity. Your manmade, freewill gospel is a fraud, the gospel of the accursed of God as you will all find out on judgement day. Repent!