Psytrance Kick & Bass Phase Alignment - Is It a MUST?

[@psykick_music]

Hi all. I am aware that this topic is naturally more than a quick 10-minute demo. I would like this video to be the instigator of different ideas rather than being 'the guide to find the truth'. With that in mind, can't wait to see what you think!

[@maryankitsenko9694]

Can you imagine how we survived up until this point through 90s and 00s, when there was no phase alignment, drum tuning, sidechain, linear EQs or vst whatsover? We used to put kick and bass on the same step, while having them in different keys and we still danced to it. How ignorant we were.

[@johnymst]

Yes I was thinking the same but then thought on the other hand, with these tools these days now a lot more people are going to use them and fix their sound resulting in those who don't fall behind... People might not hear it but pros will notice one sound is better than another? I dunno just a thought I had while getting upset at this subject 😂

[@TakeOneRecordsOfficial]

compare 80-90s music quality with modern mixes and you will hear the difference... not sure what your point is 🧐

[@CrazzyJokerr]

One of the biggest mistakes is to think that people are listening like we do. They don't care about anything but good sound.

[@kingofdjembe]

Right? The choice of rhythm, melody, progression and transitions matters way way more than removing the fundamental or the compression ratio on low-mids, etc. I mean, yes we should work on those, but we should not lose sense of priorities.

[@BorisBarroso]

When you do a completely invert the phase you can listen the cancellation but in other cases I think we should not worry to much with phase cancellation, thanks for sharing

[@TreetyxD]

Well, for me the difference should be quite obvious. You can easily explain or wrap your mind around how this affects the lowend. In the end I think it doesn't matter that much tho, it is indeed something you can hear clearly but you could like both results. Phase aligned sounds more smooth, where unaligned sounds more bouncy/pumpy. :D I actually like both, but think the aligned one is still the better result, but it's really subbjective. And yes you might need a sub to hear the difference. Edit #1000: Yo, no shit, I just bypassed my sub, and gotta say phase aligned sounds so much better imho. Also on my AKG 240 it's also very noticeable. So for some reason, with my sub I really thought both results are kind of acceptable, for bypassed and headphones, it made a bigger difference... That I didn't really expect. Based on that observation, phase aligned sound so much better lmao... It just makes, the kick and bass blend A LOT better. Just my 2 cents. Edit #1001: Im changing my mind alot at this lol. I think it's completely subjective, there's definetely a "big" difference in how kick and bass interact with each other. Unaligned, the bass seems much more pronounced, aligned it's more like the kick is upfront and just "transitions" smoothly into the bass. It's actually quite logical... the bass, takes away some of that energy of the kicktail and results in another type of transition. :D Another thing, I'd love to see the sampled waveform of each alignment. Could be interesting ;P Might look into that myself laters.

[@CrazzyJokerr]

That's... an interesting comment but it's a good one for sure

[@davidpurple3698]

This depends on your genre, style, sound etc. The topic becomes more relevant when you're doing heavy EDM and you're on a club gear - then these things matters.

[@tabasri]

Hey man, thanks! I know now how phase issues can impact the lows. On my simple studio monitors it doesn't make a difference. But on my Audio Technica m50x's it really made a difference. And that makes me assume that on a proper sound system (club, festival) it does add that bit that makes the good stuff the good stuff :)

[@psykick_music]

That's what I feel too. The more you can hear the lows the the more you appreciate a well-aligned kick & bass phase :)

[@myriks6942]

I'm not a specialist, with studio headphones there is an audible difference. it's much better in phase, the kick / bass is more powerful. thanks for the comparison

[@psykick_music]

Thanks for the comment I am glad it helped :)

[@shivbhalla9780]

A good comparison would have been using similar kicks. Both kicks have different pitch and amp envelopes. The unaligned kick sounds better because of the character of the transient and punch (all which are happening before the fundamental interacts with the first bass note). If you were to recreate that same kick exactly in kick 2 and alter it to be in key and phase with your bass, it would sound much better in my opinion. Keep in mind that phase issues in the low end become exponentially more apparent the bigger the sound system

[@Psiger]

I'm also a bit on both sides, recently I went over to not tune kicks anymore to my bass but sometimes I still do. But as you say I guess in the end it counts most what it sounds like.

[@psykick_music]

I tend to agree. Most of the times I try to trust my ear first, then I check to see how the kick and bass are aligning. More so than not, if it sounds bad, the alignment turns out to be totally off.

[@DaddaPsy]

I'd like to think that if it's possible to get it in phase, then do it. Just mind that a perfect aligned K&B will amplify the volume of the first bass note so balance that with EQ or volume-shaping. The downside of me being meticulous about having it perfectly aligned is that I have a tendency to NOT change the first bass note when writing bass melodies which limits my options for creative choices. I stick to only changing the 2nd or 3rd one. Mostly because I'm too lazy to fix the phase miss-match a note change can give. Sure there are ways of side-chaining the lows but not the rest, but I aim for keeping it simple & stupid.

[@davidcarvalho891]

I think its smart to keep it simple, not stupid

[@psykick_music]

I think that was one of the reasons why eClip would have a separate channel for the first bass note. I would just try to edit it one time, then bounce it and copy the bounced wav file all throughout. But now I am leaning towards more flexibility. However, more flexibility generally means more work lol 😅

[@AnsolasDe]

It is also useful to open a second scope to observe the sum

[@MarcSprecher]

I refere to the end of the video @9:30 where the question is asked "can you hear a difference" and the answer is clearly YES. The alligned kick/bass is definitely sounding better. Do you need good gear to judge the sound.?... yes... of course you need good gear to hear the details in music production. Is it much? YES for a kick and bass in psytrance it is with my studio headphones pretty much and I suggest you keep it aligned.

[@psykick_music]

I think my point in that comparison was that 'it definitely sounds bad if its 100% out of phase'. However, it doesn't sound as bad if the phase is slightly mismatched with the other (second) kick.

[@MarcSprecher]

@@psykick_music Oh.... I obviously misunderstood that. Maybe I got confused by reading the written question "can you hear a difference"....

[@psykick_music]

@@MarcSprecher Probably I was thinking more of people who might be listening with headphones (or even earphones) when I wrote that lol

[@n3gi540]

Nice tutorial bro

[@Dramaki]

Thanks! Great examples indeed

[@psykick_music]

Thanks!

[@UmaRecordings]

Any free similar oscilloscope plugins for mac ? Need to be able to view kick and bass simultaniously like this one:-)

[@mira.spearfishing9868]

Hi! Cool video, thanks! :) That kick that you used from the sample pack, wich sample pack is it?

[@psider3239]

I’m a beginner. But may be this let’s me thing differently from you (the experienced producers) Let me ask this, is it possible to use the phase cancellation in your advantage? Instead of phase aligning and then trying to side chain and lower the volume of the first note, can we just use phase cancellation as a side chain effect?

[@psykick_music]

I honestly never heard of that idea and I wouldn't entertain it, just because it doesn't 'sound right' to me. I would love to hear from other producers who think otherwise and why!

[@TreetyxD]

You can use phase inversion to kind of isolate kicks from basses in some cases too! It's pretty interesting, you can use it like kind of a dynamic filter.

[@flueberly]

astronomical difference, wow thanks a lot

[@Mikomanus]

i see the point of this but kinda not sure what will happen if you change the bass note during the track (different chord). All your phase allignement is gone?

[@snook-official]

Just listening on Beyerdynamic's DT990s I can barely hear any difference between the inverted and non inverted, but then it's for 1/16 of a bar which is really fast. I'm thinking it's not something that you should spend too much time stressing over as you might actually prefer the way it sounds with cancellation, unless it's causing some inconsistancy or drift across the whole track. That said it would be great to check this while mixing, Psyscope isn't available on macOS, anyone know of an alternative that's free? I have no money for new plugins at the moment. I'm going have a listen through monitors and a sub as these headphone's may not be representing the low end enough.

[@core1985]

Licensed to Team R2R 2016

[@Philbrazil]

Being totally serious right now.....this works for me but I can't vouch for others. Close your eyes when listening to the changes he makes in the vid. you CAN hear a difference in the bass when it's phase aligned. there's a subtle amount of "oomf" that comes from the alignment. without it I noticed it's gone.

[@ParmaFulvio]

I think the same!

[@nrgenergy2353]

can you please tell me how to setup the osciloscope to work on bitwig?

[@psykick_music]

simply download this vst and install: fx23.net/psyscope/

[@psykick_music]

You can download the free version. That's what I have

[@sheshehang]

Sounds more punchy when in phase.

[@rmolag]

the G kick sounds way too much like a tennisball, change the baseline to G and this G kick will be tuned and still sound way too much like a tennisball :) . My wild guess; use theory to come close and then let your ears decide. Then sometimes you use a tuned kick and at other times not. Both will sound different and both can sound bad or good. theory for aproximation, ears to decide.

[@stevepoitras6747]

Was just wondering how you get both instruments into the same psyscope . Do you just group the vsts and then add psyscope To the group

[@psykick_music]

You can use the sidechain on the Psyscope plugin and it should display both channels in different colors.

[@stevepoitras6747]

@@psykick_music thank you

[@sb848]

Does this only matter if the kick and bass have the same fundamental/note

[@psykick_music]

There has been different theories but IMO, it does not really matter. The audibility of the kick at such low range is almost non-perceivable by human ears.

[@theunconciousmind7314]

it doesn't have to be perfect! just dont destroy it completlty. or get a plugin and destroy it so u can get a feel for it and find the opposite spot and its (almost) perfect, very easy concept

[@gughffhhghgghghgg1690]

Which plugin is this oscilloscope

[@psykick_music]

Psyscope

[@alexkid1]

You sound Iranian 😊

[@Thusila234]

Just always trow a linear eq on your channels. And if you use zero latency eq just use a 6 db shelf eq. So the phase would always remain unaffected.... the nerdy stuff of music just takes away your time to be creative. We wanna work fast. And besides. Most people listen to this when they are drugged. They would be still liking a track if you you'ld threw in a justin bieber remix

[@wesleywild-s9x]

Literally asking myself this question today . Cheers for the info

[@Thusila234]

Thats just for people trying to be cool that they know how to do it. So they can brag they can read analysis plugins and understand the physics behind the phase and stuff.... thats just for mandark type of scientists. Just always be a dexter (sound) scientist