Puff-Peach is 60-40, and that's okay

[@Faulheit]

the funniest bit about this is that toph was commentating a llod set and he said "medschool isn't that hard after all huh"

[@turndownforwalt]

LMAOOOOOOO

[@thescaletblur07]

Wow… *wheezes*

[@OfficialPlasticHands]

Llod is winning a mental battle most don’t by enjoying the War of Attrition that H-Box puts people through.

[@TheStrangeBloke]

This is the biggest thing. They're fundamentally both defense-focused attrition players. Every Llod set, win or lose, ends with the other player exhausted, something the you see a lot with Hbox too. (though Hbox sometimes plays aggro to mess people up.)

[@Wheatsolo]

The year is 2064. Every MU is 60/40 and johns are the leading factor in Melee's implosion. Games are no longer won with play but how well you tweet johns after the match. Fiction has been rank 1 for years while HBOX and Leffen take turns at no 2. Armada makes his living entirely off reaction videos and also holds WRs in BTTs. Mango hasn't been seen for years and rumor has it he's retired to the mountains of NC with PPMD preparing for the rumored return of the King.

[@Wheatsolo]

@Angelic What happened? The journey doesn't end. John's are just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it. One platform, and Mew2King, frame perfect nuetral and swift dash dance.

[@CreamyPesto505]

@@Wheatsolo This man made Tolkien sound like a sick Marth main.

[@sapphicvenusian9464]

Even if this wasn't Hbox's first peach loss ever, it was the first in over 10 years

[@johnmarkson1998]

him losing to Spark makes this way less special though. i dont think any peach stood a chance against the hbox youre talking about.

[@turndownforwalt]

Yep! I think regardless of the circumstance it’s still a massive accomplishment!

[@jasonkim3657]

“And that’s okay” just say that to anyone who is johnning their ass off

[@AutumnReel4444]

I would sign a petition to have Llod change his tag to Llod MD

[@0tf850]

Why llod anyways?

[@deltatin2758]

@@0tf850 it's Doll backwards-

[@312bigbeanburrito]

LLMD

[@dad4436]

hbox's loss to xelic was actually in 2008 at fast 1, at least according to their liquipedia

[@declanhearne5784]

Thanks, dad!

[@Supertaldo916]

Wtf are you doing here, Dad?! You'e embarrasing me. Trying to pick up the same hobbies as me won't bring back the 20+ years you were absent ffs.

[@JinkSSBM]

this just shows how talented llod really is.

[@MultiMadgeek]

and bad hbox is after not playing melee in 6 months

[@kingintox5743]

James Corn Yeah but that’s an excuse nearly anyone can use. Everyone’s been playing Melee less, and Llod’s been busy with Med school, so not that great of a John

[@MultiMadgeek]

@@kingintox5743 also online being different to offline

[@kingintox5743]

James Corn Yeah, that’s really the only “good” excuse someone can use really hahaha

[@MultiMadgeek]

@@kingintox5743 i mean... yea its not some break through set it was when every player wasnt at their peak hadnt played melee and in a setting they were unfamiliar with with very little practice little to none of these sets matters

[@icecreambone]

as soon as you said neutral i felt in my soul that he was going to talk about brawl

[@turndownforwalt]

Ah yes, the best Smash game

[@strange4107]

turndownforwalt pivot tech is goated in brawl

[@reisjames1]

I was one of the people on a few of your earlier videos who thought you might have gone too deep into simple situations, or not talked about the most interesting or complex interactions when analyzing a set, but this video is really sick and I love the stuff you talked about with Llod. The way you built up llods shielding strategy INTO subfloats and how they make his shields better, and finally led it into the analysis of the last stock on FD was really good. Clear through-line and really informative. Good video man 👍

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you so much!

[@jamiecal11]

Tweeting that it's been 9 years since you lost a single game vs Peach, then following up that tweet by calling the matchup 60/40 is absolutely peak Hbox.

[@jamiecal11]

Also, don't really care about online results. When tournies roll around again he won't be losing to Spark and Llod.

[@Quackra]

@@jamiecal11 well we won't see him for the rest of 2020 so who knows how things will go for Hbox

[@jamiecal11]

@@Quackra ok

[@mlalbaitero]

@@Quackra maybe unless a vaccine or something is made

[@Quackra]

@@mlalbaitero the vaccine last I had heard was estimated to be sometime next year

[@ButcherAM]

These videos are easily the best melee documentaries on youtube you deserve so much more popularity

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you so much! I think we’re definitely trending upwards and I’m happy to be growing with you guys!

[@neophyte_tpk]

That _was_ a good intro.

[@turndownforwalt]

Thanks!

[@gamingbros49]

I don’t play melee competitively but wow man I can’t stop watching these videos because of the amount of knowledge you give, the way you break down exchanges makes me think about smash as a whole differently, id kill for anyone to make a video like this about ultimate

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you so much!

[@strange4107]

It gets even crazier when you realize all the tech being used

[@andrewfirth9858]

This match up illustrates the idea that "puff dies early" isn't entirely true. Yes, she can die to stray hits much earlier, but there isn't the same amount of damage taken from 1 neutral loss, meaning it'll take more neutral interactions, meaning puff sorta dies later in a lot of cases. She doesn't get gimped early either, and she can run away so easily.

[@SSB_Seal]

Even though this set doesn’t *really* count in most people’s opinions, it’s still very impressive and definitely worth talking about. Nice vid as usual!

[@chanlennox8133]

Actually a lot of top players are calling out other players who say online wins are invalid. Just listen to the mango,Zain, and legend podcast

[@SSB_Seal]

+Chan Lennox I did listen to that and I don’t remember anyone saying that. Can you provide a timestamp of it? Online wins are not “invalid” per se, but they are undeniably a different thing and should be regarded with less significance.

[@turndownforwalt]

I completely agree! Thanks for the comment!

[@chanlennox8133]

SSB_Seal oh yeah I agree, I didn’t understand what you were saying lol

[@littlebigcommentary]

@@chanlennox8133 is there a time stamp for that, because i don't remember that being said either.

[@taylorallred6208]

Llod is clearly a very intelligent person/player. Mad respect.

[@turndownforwalt]

I was honestly blown away by some of his game knowledge he shared in our interview. He’s crazy good!

[@al3ph35]

Hungrybox is in need of a major comeback

[@heyzeuscreestow9394]

Not in melee lol

[@OGamelon]

Is that... hungrybox's mother!?

[@Neogears1312]

Well he won a major soooo…

[@lucagacy]

You know what would be an interesting video: if Zain's roy was considered seperate on the PG rankings, where would he be?

[@Kosmicd12]

80-20 lol Edit: Wrote this before the bit about Trif saying this. I agree with him :) I know the title is leffen meme reference, but in general people seem to refuse to say anything except 50-50 and 60-40.

[@zpushz]

Didn't know kosmic played melee

[@turndownforwalt]

It honestly depends on who you ask, but just based on the conversation I had with lloD I can absolutely see why he would think it’s closer to 60-40!

[@warp_skip]

Gotta say your voice is just perfect for this kind of video. You sound like a news reporter

[@turndownforwalt]

I appreciate that, thank you!

[@arJunebugSmash]

Well executed! Really liked the lloD commentary and breakdown in this one; lloD da god

[@turndownforwalt]

Thanks June! I had a lot of fun with this one!

[@yote3929]

Here after genesis 8 and hopefully Llod will continue to master the matchup, set was awesome to watch

[@SendoPLUS]

I came looking for this comment

[@TurbinationE]

Thanks for covering how powershield works. It's way too common of a misconception that powershielding attacks reduces shieldstun.

[@Omaga297]

Imagine beating Hbox and then seeing him post a video about quitting melee shortly after 😂 crazy stuff

[@TrickyRover]

That's not what the video was but ok.

[@Omaga297]

@@TrickyRover kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6nNcnyjqpt_prM&ab_channel=Hungrybox he posted this right after llod beat him on the same day. the loss made him publicly contemplate quitting melee. i dont get whats so hard to understand

[@TrickyRover]

@@Omaga297 Quitting *online* melee.

[@drewmetra]

Best melee content of 2020 so far. I LOVE IT!

[@turndownforwalt]

I really appreciate that, thanks!

[@diegocerecero]

lloD is such a lovely guy

[@turndownforwalt]

It was honestly a treat to talk with him in our full interview. He’s insanely knowledgeable!

[@DesTr069]

« But come on, that was a good intro » You know, maybe it wasn’t 100% accurate, as you’ve acknowledged, but I do agree that it was a great intro. I’ll let it slide this time Walt 😉

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you for your leniency good sir

[@danielfrydman1136]

This videos amazing, been really been loving this type of content. your work is appreciated, keep it up :)))

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you so much!

[@zaedis5629]

I've been saying for years that top melee neutral looks just like street fighter neutral and 13:53 highlights that perfectly

[@turndownforwalt]

That’s the most interesting part of the matchup for me!

[@grizzykuma5246]

As an ex Peach/Puff main in melee, this video is insanely interesting

[@turndownforwalt]

It was so great to get insight directly from lloD! He’s a beast at this matchup!

[@CreamyPesto505]

Dec 31, 2020... HE DID IT AGAIN BOYS!

[@roysrevengefgcofficial1508]

I'm so glad somebody sat down to discuss and dissect this set, it was very important and llod is a very intelligent player. Highly underrated

[@kennythekid130]

Love your videos, I hope you'll make one about Borp.

[@bluyu]

It has nearly been two decades and this game is still evolving

[@ColtorTheSavior]

I absolutely love the content you provide us Walt, some of the most informative and entertaining melee content on the platform hands down. Never stop creating these amazing videos for us

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you so much!

[@katepuddings2]

Awesome video. Love your stuff and I'm amazed by your super great production quality!

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you very much!

[@joshpeppers5061]

Your channel is one of my favorite on the platform. The analysis of melee is what drew me to the game. I’m a new Samus player, and I’m starting late to the game(I’m a freshman in college) but you’re channel keeps me motivated to be great one day. I hope to be indirectly criticized by one of your videos one day. Thank you

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you so much!

[@lambmaster27]

Great vid!

[@zyxflame]

mad respect on the honesty in the intro; you know damn well you could have lied on the internet and gotten away with it.

[@PERSONALEEMG]

great video learned a lot.

[@tenslein8977]

This loss is like Mango vs. Kage. Hungrybox must be so pissed lol.

[@Reminiscable]

5:57 Oh my god this is the deepest statement I've heard all year! Armada definitely taking notes.

[@syedbilalmir6945]

Love the content walt, very well edited

[@tba6]

I just realized that I love how banter this title is lol

[@DannEBae]

And that’s why I didn’t like HBox’s response to his loss in this tournament. The amount of effort and time from llod is instantly invalidated by HBox’s excuse.

[@MrAnonymoose]

But didn’t he say “he’s so good” at 4:55. It’s not like he’s saying LLOD is bad. Hbox’s argument is that he can’t bring himself to be 100% motivated at an online tournament. Maybe because there’s no crowd. Maybe because it’s not on a stage. Who knows. But llod came to win and Hbox didn’t. Is Hbox Johning? Yeah. He’s making an excuse for his underperformance. But I don’t think that invalidated llod’s time and effort.

[@CosmicHippopotamus]

Josh Tusaneza And didn’t his heart rate hit like 198 bpm in a different online tournament game (vs. cody iirc)? It’s hard to imagine he’s not taking them seriously if he is experiencing that much pressure.

[@dsquarehead0175]

@@CosmicHippopotamus he was taking that specific online tournament seriously, he just had not practiced at all. During the month leading up to that, he was really only playing Ultimate. If he had practiced, he would have won, not because llod wasn't playing well, but because the matchup isn't 60-40. Llod needs to outplay hbox 4 to 1, and if hbox was prepared, he wouldn't let that happen. It was similar to how Zain won Rona Rumbe. He needed to outwork his opponent like 5 to 1.

[@Appletank8]

Hbox had been losing passion for Melee for a while

[@Matthew.Morcos]

@@MrAnonymoose It kind of did invalidate it, because he tweeted about it before the torunement even ended. Llod never got his time to shine, and the spotlight was on hbox the whole time

[@jigglykarp]

I love your vids man I’m sure this is gonna be great!

[@amaterachu1]

Aw snap as always on these Walt videos time to make a Cartoon Network Punch Time Explosion XL comparison. Now I gotta cover a matchup. Vilgax vs Mojo Jojo This is an interesting match. Both characters have some notable range options. Vilgax however is just too bullshit for Mojo Jojo. First off Vilgax's down smash deals 21% uncharged, does heavy knockback, and the hitbox is so awkward and has more range than it looks like it should, it's like he was sized down but they forgot to size down this attack hitbox during the process. He can use this bullshit hitbox as an edge guard that completely denies ledge (ledge grabbing isn't as strong in this game because you only have two options. Getting up is slow and you can get hit easily, the other option is to press down just like in smash. guess what Vilgax is going to use and will definitely hit you with if you choose that option). Bascially Mojo Jojo does not want to get near Vilgax at all or he risks getting demolished by his might. Mojo Jojo will be zoning out the character with his neutral special, (which shoots two Samus projectiles, one higher and one lower. the strength Idk how to compare because I haven't played Smash in a while but maybe like a low-mid shot with little knockback scaling?) his down special, which drops a projectile below him, and use up special to get away/attack, which is stronger down special but he rockets upward and does almost heavy knockback (not as heavy as Vilgax's down smash). If he gets close he can use multiple aerial combos and has the best dash attack in the game at his disposal. If he wants to close in he'll have to use either dash attack because of how fast it is, or side special which has more range and is easier to follow up with. He can actually use his neutral special and then approach afterward with these attacks if he's close enough (and if Vilgax gets hit by them to begin with). Vilgax can do multiple pokes with his laser neutral special, and catch up to projectile focused characters like Mojo Jojo easily because of his massive Cloud Strife sword. His down special is a strong get off me move if he desires and grants him total invulnerability, which can neutralize projectiles like Mojo's coming his way. Hell, his down smash can even neutralize these projectiles easily. If Vilgax punishes you, it'll be brutal. You have to play against him very carefully. So yeah this was a simple overview but basically Vilgax is too strong and can deny Mojo Jojo's zoning making the matchup in Vilgax's favor. I'd say 65-35 maybe?

[@turndownforwalt]

Your dedication to Cartoon Network Punch Time Explosion XL always impresses me

[@kniives]

Aku vs Blossom?

[@amaterachu1]

@@kniives Let's start out by saying Blossom doesn't have an infinite. It's a popular misconception and anyone saying this hasn't played the game enough if at all, or has only played against the easy AI who let's such "infinites" happen. Ice breath is a great move but it doesn't lead to any infinites as the attack has knockback scaling, and has a fairly average startup and endlag not allowing any infinites to occur. Although Blossom can indeed chain ice breath, it won't go on forever. Blossom's problem is she isn't Aku. She has to move in to even land an attack because her range is a bit on the short side. Aku's laser straight up denies Blossom from getting any closer. Okay but say she does get close? Aku can just up special Blossom because that attack is straight bullshit. How bullshit? If Blossom freezes an Aku using up special the hitbox will still be active taking away any follow up Blossom may have planned. And this is just without Aku's techs. Diagonal laser tech denies Blossom even more and the goat tech gives him the best recovery in the game by a landslide. (His neutral special also demolishes shields) Aku's weakness however is what I said above. He really only has a few good attacks while the rest are just risky and not even worth it if you already have an easier, safer, and 10x more rewarding attack. Blossom has multiple good moves and a great combo game making her a little less predictable. Her down b is her best attack, as it kills a lot earlier than normal. It's basically Pikachu's down b range but it's Palutena's up smash so the projectile is more instant. Blossom is another contender for the best recovery, not for the distance but for being able to psyche out opponents with her free movement. But yeah overall another 65-35. I'm not good with numbers so I'll do the smash wiki equivalent. Aku's favor is "+2" against Blossom.

[@HughGRection]

damn walt you're really shining these days, awesome vid

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you man! Still hope to see a comeback from you some day!

[@GirlDotJpeg]

gigaschwab 3 really makes 60-40 seem wrong lmao

[@MA-ym8pl]

i love watching all of your videos, such high quality. keep it up please!

[@turndownforwalt]

Will do!

[@drakoz254]

Great video as always walt. Really liked the slightly deeper neutral breakdowns.

[@turndownforwalt]

Appreciate it!

[@B463L]

It's a shame Hbox is adapting poorly to online play, but congrats to llod. Hell of an accomplishment

[@tummhumm2727]

I honestly get this vibe that Hbox just doesn't care about melee anymore. Maybe it's because netplay tournaments don't count toward the ranking? Idk but he is pretty much an ultimate player at this point and he'll need to make a decision on which game he will prioritize cuz if IRL tourneys come back and if Hbox is still playing ultimate and not grinding enough melee, he will lose his rank 1 on the MPGR very soon.

[@B463L]

@@tummhumm2727 Even in February he went like 18-0 at smash summit. The pandemic & the realities of online play really threw him off. I feel like he would be the GOAT if he could overcome the Rona Blues and defend his title against Zain. It would be sad to see him leave now

[@tummhumm2727]

@@B463L He did mention that once IRL tournaments come back, he will compete in melee again so he definitely isn't quitting yet.

[@B463L]

@@tummhumm2727 I just hope he's sharp, that he tries his hardest & doesn't get tilted out of shape.

[@ShadowMark3_]

Idk why but I like Melee Peach's animations. Especially Up Air.

[@AdalHRivera]

I love your productions man

[@Chris_Staton]

Great work walt!

[@HarrisonWeber21]

“Slippi netplay buid”

[@itsyaboi1245]

This video already a classic

[@Diglett101]

In the words of Mang0 and Big Lef "Armada is malding"

[@ivanp8723]

insane as always walt 🔥🔥

[@ENTERTAINMENTSERVICE]

great video as always!! lets go walt!!

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you!

[@jackclifton5434]

The best part about this matchup is that they’re not even playing melee at this point. It’s just slow and brutal and it’s all mind games. I love it, it might be my new favorite matchup between two players. I’m excited to see if he can keep this up and how Hbox will adapt.

[@thirstyfajita4115]

So selfish that llod is going to med school, when he can be benefiting the health of the melee scene by pushing peach to the max.

[@rishabhanand4973]

the idea of llod winning cuz hbox choked is absurd. The reason choking happens is that you don't have enough juice in you down the stretch, making you more prone to mistakes. Hbox is a guy known for fighting the war of attrition, so he must have an _insane_ level of endurance. ergo, he didn't choke. The case that can be made is that he isn't used to facing a peach like llod's. The power-shielding tactic alone is enough to throw anyone off. Llod must have been preparing the puff matchup for a long time while hbox faced something he likely didn't prepare for in set. And a tournament set is not a good place to learn a matchup. So with hbox knowing what he's in for, I don't imagine future sets will be 3-1 in llod's favor. But as a peach main, I am looking forward to ground being broken in the puff matchup.

[@sutranitsua]

Still waiting for a salty response from armada

[@kkazual7932]

here after hbox lost to Polish in his first lan peach set loss ever

[@davidramos4707]

Do mang0 versus captain falcon

[@rakkatytam]

"...chances are, you're really lazy" Why do I feel personally attacked?

[@JDLupus]

I'd always found tournament matches involving HBox to be interesting, just in a different way to the usual crazy comboing on display. I'd never had a problem with them.

[@vinifox91]

1) pause at 13:57 2) cry

[@dovesoap5026]

great vid as always walt. melee is sickkkk

[@turndownforwalt]

Appreciate it!

[@enricuhl]

Turnipforwalt

[@thirstyfajita4115]

Melee is sick

[@namenamename390]

I wonder if HBox lost partly because he doesn't play top level peaches that often. Like, if even Armada doesn't even try to beat him with peach, then how many times does he run into really good peaches in bracket?

[@turndownforwalt]

I think most players find the matchup so lopsided for Puff that even a lack of experience wouldn’t make up for it. Like I said in the video, lloD is also just freakishly good at the Puff matchup, which is a huge contributor!

[@namenamename390]

@@turndownforwalt of course, I obviously didn't intend on playing down his skill, because he's really, REALLY good. That is without question the biggest contributor, but there are possibly some other factors.

[@200_MXP]

I play both theses characters, it's at least 70/30

[@turndownforwalt]

lloD did say he thinks the matchup shifts more in Puff’s favor if she has a lead!

[@salj.5459]

This just proves that Melee players refusing to play campy against Puff is their downfall

[@Riolupai]

its online tbf

[@turndownforwalt]

Still a very impressive win!

[@Riolupai]

@@turndownforwalt yep

[@darksyde3000]

I was today years old, after playing this game since '07, that I learned there is a third longer length of standing turnip throw wtffff

[@turndownforwalt]

lloD stays 2000 IQ

[@i_am_greymatter__7000]

This is why I don't take MU numbers seriously, just because one person struggles/can't use their character's tools properly doesn't mean that the other person will have that same struggle. Have a man make a tier list for a MU and I guarantee the next man will have something different.

[@emmbeesea]

lloD, MD A Medical Doctor from Maryland who kicks butt in Defensive Melee. The legendary Green Peach.

[@-eea32]

It was a good intro

[@neftaliadrian]

Llod is great!

[@Mildlyseasoned]

hey remember when slippi was cool and like totally not banned from being used in online tournaments

[@jaodizon3726]

Nice vid

[@pkyy9269]

6-4 is massively common in other FGs

[@skrill3348]

If only Hbox would just get the fuck off of Ultimate he wouldn’t be struggling so much. But after all, his heart is else where.

[@jigglykarp]

I loved it

[@mparagames]

Why do you have like 4 dolphin / slippi icons in your deskktop

[@turndownforwalt]

Don’t worry about it

[@kniives]

I was expecting to hear hanky panky's name

[@turndownforwalt]

Raise your Cane’s!

[@Athesies]

Gooch's tweet got into this vid? Thats hype

[@natefroggy3626]

ngooch out

[@jimtroeltsch5998]

I mean, I'm pretty f'n lazy, but that has nothing to do with the fact that I didn't go to med-school. That's just a coincidence and I could go at any time. I just don't want to right now, Llod.

[@tummhumm2727]

As a college student, I can tell you that the med school program is extremely competitive and people literally need a near-perfect GPA to get in lol.

[@officialanti-vaxxchristian6745]

peach puff games should have 3 stocks

[@shredder6969]

Nah they should only be played on Yoshi's or Fountain.

[@turndownforwalt]

I think it’s actually a very interesting matchup at this level!

[@blazeplazeyt182]

How do u only have 20k subs

[@turndownforwalt]

We’re definitely growing and I super appreciate all the support!

[@matt4193]

oooooooooooooooooooooo yeah

[@thomasstephenson4043]

based. im a peach player and ive been a firm believer that peach puff is doable for years, im glad this is more common knowledge now :)

[@tummhumm2727]

Many people just believe that peach puff is unwinnable for peach because they just listen to whatever Armada says.

[@turndownforwalt]

Doable for sure, but definitely still difficult!

[@thomasstephenson4043]

@@tummhumm2727 its funny bc armada has addressed this on his streaming saying "Its totally doable, except against Hungrybox"

[@thomasstephenson4043]

and yet people still say its undoable, and think their quoting armada

[@alexanderbateman5581]

saw this in my recommended again so I'm commenting again to say that puff peach is nowhere close to 60-40 and is so unfathomably bad as a matchup that every single person should be picking jigglypuff and putting a minimal amount of effort into learning this mu. it will pay 100x dividends over their main even if they have never touched puff in their life peach is a mid tier solely off of the existence of jigglypuff. if jigglypuff was not in the game peach would be better than sheik and falcon. because jigglypuff exists she falls down like 5 spots

[@dad4436]

and now llod beat him again

[@meweaz3]

Cool

[@Lagoa_real]

Fastest click of my life

[@turndownforwalt]

YEET

[@clueless3120]

But didn’t he win online? I don’t think that counts