Puma Deviate Nitro 3 vs Saucony Endorphin Speed 4

[@AlaricDarconville]

Great comparison. I was about to pull the trigger on the Puma Nitro 3. Your video saved me.

[@SagasuRunning]

Someone had too… I’m glad I could help.

[@CMDV8N3]

Just FYI, I’ve been running 40 years, DV8 Nitro 3 is one of my fave shoes ever.

[@c510sony1]

Just found your channel, love the charts and graphs, makes it so much easier to understand rather than just talking about how the shoes feel! Subbed!

[@SagasuRunning]

I'm glad it's all helpful and am happy to have earned the sub. 🤙🏻

[@MyFatAdaptedLife]

I'm a huge fan of Boston shoes that get me to Boston each year (NB, Puma US, Reebok, Saucony, Topo). I've been enjoying both the DN2 and the Speed 3. Both are getting up in miles and will most likely replace the S3 with the S4. I can't say the same for the DN3. Thanks, Chris.

[@SagasuRunning]

The B12 wins for me in most cases. But the ES4 is a huge surprise for me this year. Very capable and fun to run in. Massive surprise.

[@MyFatAdaptedLife]

@SagasuRunning Not coincidentally, I recently picked up two pairs of the B12 at my local Adidas Outlet for $120 for both. Looking forward to trying it out. Thx, Chris.

[@SagasuRunning]

Enjoy them 🤙🏻

[@MyFatAdaptedLife]

@@SagasuRunning 👍

[@ondamixtape]

@@MyFatAdaptedLife is b12 better than ES4?

[@ernestmabaso9267]

After watching this video and listening to your arguments I'm looking to buy the speed 4. Thanks for your unbiased opinions which are well supported by thourough and comprehensive research. You leave no stone unturned. Thank you 🎉

[@SagasuRunning]

Enjoy them. They are a great shoe on foot.

[@TheValonquar]

I thoroughly enjoy my speed 4 for interval/track work. The turnover feels snappy. Stable platform yet nimble feeling.

[@SagasuRunning]

I find it capable of that type of work… but it’s not my first choice at all. However you could do worst.

[@TheValonquar]

@@SagasuRunning yea haha many of the track alternatives are too narrow for me. Fit issues. Pacer V2 might be solve this issue.

[@SagasuRunning]

True… the ES4, while not wide, is definitely wider (with a more generous fit) than the faster alternatives. The stability is unmatched as well.

[@Minionthesecond]

The endorphin speed series has never failed me since the 1st version. The 3rd and the current 4th version is in fact a little bit "slower" than the first 2 . The good news is, it becomes more versatile and become an everyday run rather than merely a tempo shoes

[@SagasuRunning]

I'm not an advocate of running 100% of the time in a plated shoe, even one as flexible as the ES4...but the shoe handles easy running well. Especially important in a fartlek or speed play workout where you have on/off phases. Excellent choice for that type of work.

[@pradeepmca]

Great explanation. I just found your channel and glad i did.

[@SagasuRunning]

Thank you for watching. I hope you find value here. 🤙🏻

[@skobodabaws8946]

I got DN2 n Speed 3 n both are doing very well but I feel more snapier in the Speed 3!

[@SagasuRunning]

I bet it will remain the same in this current generation. Enjoy them both though! 🤙🏻

[@st4331]

Same here. The ES3 is great for road running but the DN2 is a very good light trail shoe.

[@Ethanmmmmmm]

@@st4331agreed

[@TimGrose]

Funny that this is the 2nd comparison vid including these two have seen today and you seem to arrive at the same conclusion albeit by rather different means. I think you have certainly saved my cash on this regular Deviate Nitro 3 but the Elite one seems to be getting way more "love" so I wonder if you had considered trying it?

[@SagasuRunning]

Maybe the DNE3 is all that. Maybe its just the hype shoe of the moment and in 2 months no one will talk about it? I would be curious how it felt for you. Supposedly it has VF2 vibes...

[@TimGrose]

@@SagasuRunning yeah I think a shoe like the DNE3 is perhaps one where ShoeTubers get "excited" about it for the odd casual run with a bit of goal pace but come an actual race day other shoes might get the nod for an honest effort. Just watching the RunTesters vid on it and yeah it does seem to be good (for a Puma) "but" ...

[@SagasuRunning]

But…. That’s my thing… 😂

[@finproductions]

@@SagasuRunning I would really like to see a review of the DNE3 by you (I know you said you weren't going to based on your experience of the DN3) and a comparison vid of the DNE3 and TS10 specifically, as I'm not sure I'm going to be able to make the TS10 fit work for me and wonder if DNE3 is a good alternative to go with all the other Adizero shoes in a rotation.

[@SagasuRunning]

@@finproductions I'm not saying never but it's unlikely, unless Puma reaches out to me (with is even more unlikely). The DNE3 is more a VF3 than a TS10. I can't see where the geometry of the DNE3 would be able to touch the TS10 for workouts. a 5/10k race, is possible though. Between the VF3 and the TS10...I've got this type of shoe well covered.

[@subhi2698]

My experience is Speed 4 : At first 50k, i felt the rebound, the bounce and feel goods to run and I tot it will become natural for me. However I have to admit, since as I been running in Adidas shoe ALOT, this shoes started to feels like it mess with my form. It just felts like the forefoot theres nothing at all. Secondly I been running in narrow shoes like TS10 but something about Speed 4 toe felts unatural tapering, feels so roomy in the heels but tapering quite a lot in the forefoot, although the stretchy upper not really giving me any issues at all. Thirdly something about the PEBA foam in Speed 4 is not the same as LSP or even the light strike, I am comparing this to Adizero because thats the only shoes I keep running in. Four, the turn over of my leg in Speed 4 does feels akward maybe because I am mid to forefoot striker, but everytime I try to run faster, the heel gets in the way making me angry at times. Running slow or easy in this shoe NOT rewarding at all, yeah you can but your feet feels dead. One thing I love is the outsole pattern of the shoe making it grippy on the wet surface but it just that. Not to say I hate the shoe but if I were to pick a speed trainer to do tempo or threshold i wouldn't be using Speed 4. I felt that the plastic plate also kinda work againts me especially when I wanted to run fast, I have been putting long runs, workouts and then I stop doing that and just purely used this as my easy miles.shoes which turn out to be not as pleasant as well. If I were to put where does the Speed 4 goes in is like Im going to a hotel or somewhere far and I just find this shoe in the room suddenly, i would pick it, but if I had to bring this, no i would not. So yeah all of this factor making me putting it up for sale to anyone wanted, not sure why but yeah probably a heel striker.

[@SagasuRunning]

Interesting impressions. I agree that Adidas has a far better tech stack in materials and construction…. But the ES4 has really grown on me. I would pick the TS10 or B12 over it for anything… but for a solid shoe that works well in a range of paces and is fun to run in the ES4 is one of my big surprises for the year.

[@subhi2698]

@@SagasuRunning yea i agree, if i weren't running in any adizero shoes, i think this shoe will feels revolutionary but now its not. Going easy kms on Takumi Sen 10 feels easier and fun than Speed 4. Speed 4 might be the trainer that someone who might just wanna get the feels of super shoe and havent got anything like that before. I dont want to keep compare this to TS10 but just because the Pseudonarrow feeling in the Speed 4 makes me keep comparing it. Maybe bcos the shape of my foot or what but definitely does not feel natural, it taper too early i think for me. I feel like the insole itself has some like a weird feelings to the arch of my foot, i kinda need to warm up quite a bit to remove the feelings. Might be because I am getting use to the insole of adizero. Summary: If you ever has an adizero, this might not work with you unless you might wanna feels weird and work on your form for the different feelings and sensations.

[@theghostofpcs2391]

@@SagasuRunning I dislike the B12, but am madly in love with the AP3. I find the cushioning of the Speed 2 and 3 lacking at times, but the DN2 feels fine. Would I be able to like the TS10?

[@SagasuRunning]

It’s worth a try. It will be much closer in feel the the DN2 in feel and fit. PWRRUN PB definitely has its limits (around 15k for me) but up until then it feels fun.

[@subhi2698]

@@theghostofpcs2391 i think you will love more of the TS10 , since you like the AP3. For me any repeats 200, 400, 800, or some mix slow and fast workout, the TS10 fits well. The lower to the ground feeling making me in love with it more. Been using a soccer shoes and it definitely make me feels like im control my self rather than shoes control me.

[@Fozzee.1970]

The ride you describe in the deviate nitro 3 is the ride that I had in the deviate nitro 2

[@SagasuRunning]

Glad to know I'm not crazy here... also interesting to know that it does go back to the DN2 for some.

[@zero_given]

My pair of DN2 got donated after one run. Incredibly unstable shoe

[@SagasuRunning]

My DN3s made it three runs…

[@michaelcaricoo]

A comparison video that i didn't think we would see, I would have assumed the DN3 would be banished

[@SagasuRunning]

With a new shoe I often start “vs” videos with the initial impressions video, especially for shoe I think are important for the market. I had every expectation the DN3 would be good so I started this video early. However, I planed for two other “vs” videos for the DN3 and shelved them both. The DN3 is officially banished from this channel as of now. This is the last video it will ever be seen in. It’s in the donation box as we speak and I hope to never see it again.

[@michaelcaricoo]

@@SagasuRunning Rebel V4 versus DN3 comparison video is needed for sure

[@NeillyVille]

Loving my Speed 4 so far. Fit and lockdown is great and best outsole from the series so far. Midsole feels fast, snappy, stable and great for workouts and Long runs. I thought I was going to hate that Saucony made the platform wider but it's growing on me every run. Not a fair comparison to DN3 but Speed 4 miles better in every way.

[@SagasuRunning]

I’m glad someone finds the fit good. I just find it vague and sloppy…. But it really does do the job. But the midsole and the ride of rhetoric ES4 is really something else. Totally unexpected for me in 2024. Maybe this isn’t a fair comparison but I know it’s one people are looking for.

[@bobgibson1303]

The Puma Mangify Nitro 2 felt similar to me it was rigid with no rebound with all of that foam

[@SagasuRunning]

The thing is the VN3 is so very good. That’s what makes the DN3 even more baffling.

[@sschwen8050]

Agreed! The Magnify Nitro 2 is a brick. I got mine for free so I don’t feel too bad about them. On the other hand I loved the DN2 but the reviews of the DN3 have been so poor that now I won’t consider it. The VN3 felt too flimsy for me when I tried it on. I opted for the Adidas SL2 instead and love it.

[@SagasuRunning]

The VN3 felt more flimsy than the SL2 for you? Interesting. The VN3 feels like an overbuilt tank compared to the SL2. Both are outstanding though…. Just very different feels.

[@sschwen8050]

@@SagasuRunning In terms of cushioning yes but I agree that the rest is tank-like. I much prefer the SL2.

[@onesleepyboii]

with those forefoot and drop height, I kinda wondering is that really nitro elite foam? why it turns out to feels so stiff and unlively as you said? is that because pwr plate malfunction or the design doesn't fit as good as DN2?

[@onesleepyboii]

woops i commented before reach out 14:15 thanks for your deep explanation sir

[@SagasuRunning]

Ha, there you go.

[@SagasuRunning]

I think it's been tweaked to be less responsive in the DN3. To both differentiate the DN3 from the DNE3 and the new A-TPU Nitro Elite foam.

[@jamesjin8839]

Interesting, I find the exact opposite outcome to what many of you experienced. I returned my speed 4 and stick with my Nitro 3 easily. I find that Speed 4 feels less welcoming to me than the ES3 that I could use it to do everything with. Ver4 really requires me to open up the stride and step harder on landing to enjoy as opposite to the old ES3 where speed roll feel very dominant during a normal/low key daily milaging logging run. My ES3 would just roll along cruising smoothly for many days within a year. Not so much for me with ver4. I find the Ver4 being more accurate to Saucony's design, being more of an up tempo training companion to pick up the pace and less of an everyday shoe. Where as my deviate ver2/ver3 both are much more versatile. Especially the ver3 being more cushioning during low key run, but work similarly for days when I decided to pick up the pace. And another key thing on top of all is ES3 used to be a straight off the list for rainy days for me when I'd really have to grab my adidas/puma for outsole grip. With either adidas or puma grip, my feet and legs are completely relaxed as I could totally trust those shoes at the point of contact to the ground. Where as my old endorphin series feel like skating on ice and it easily tense up my leg muscles since I naturally trust it less and have to exercise a bit of caution and control. With puma I could mix half road and half trail. For saucony I'd worry about sprained ankle even on wet roads. It's hardly a contest for me.

[@SagasuRunning]

I never ran in the ES3, only tried a pair on and found them way too soft (the ES4 is borderline too soft for me). I’m honestly glad the DN3 works for you. It’s a beautifully made and excellent fitting shoe. It’s what made it even more frustrating for me. The fit was nearly perfect for me. But that midsole and the plate are just not for me.

[@jamesjin8839]

@@SagasuRunning I thought there could be a lot of variables among us, but were glad to find it common that you felt Speed series are soft to you as well. It was initially one of the main reason why I chose to train with that shoe as a main daily go to. It just really felt more like a very conventional/classic jack of all trade tool, in contrary to all the super trainers with a carbon plate these days. I've also just ran with Superblast 2 and I'm really glad that ver2 worked out extremely in contrary to gen1. That could be one of the closest hit to Speed 4 for every trainer so far for 2024. Give it a try, I sense you could end up liking it a lot.

[@SagasuRunning]

@@jamesjin8839 I'll have my initial impressions review of the SB2 up this weekend. Stay tuned. 🤙🏻

[@tkwasik]

Honestly haven't been considering any puma in 2024 for notorious bad fitting for me... - unnecessarily narow fit - such dn2 and suposedly velocity 3 - though very tempting sales on velocity .... or very bad ancle fitting / blisters on forever run - very wierd finish around ancles !!! Now i can sleep peacefuly knowing im not missing anything apart of bad fitting hahaha Very good reviews mate - and kudos for not being afraid of saying what you really think - not many good and in depth reviews which can be blindly trusted on top of everything - keep up good work !!!! TK

[@SagasuRunning]

You may still want to give the Velocity Nitro 3 a chance, especially if you find a deal on it you find acceptable. The upper is excellent and the ankle collar/heel counter is well constructed and padded. The shoe IS narrow, but has a generous fit due to the training upper. The fit and quality of the Deviate Nitro 3 is also excellent, for me. That is what makes the ride even more frustrating as the fit is so very good. I'm always going to call it like I see it on this channel and work from my own experience. This shoe was a struggle, it didn't need to be, but poor engineering choices led it here.

[@Fozzee.1970]

@@SagasuRunning we don't get half sizes after size 11 in the UK. I'm 11.5!

[@SagasuRunning]

I really feel for UK residents with large feet. So many frustrations!

[@LewisWilkins-sb6hv]

New subscriber! Love the channel. A bit off topic, but I usually run in a Brooks Launch GTS 8 (mild stability) and I’m looking to invest in a tempo shoe to rotate with this. What would you say is the most stable tempo shoe - Speed 4, Boston 12 or something else?

[@SagasuRunning]

You can't go wrong with Saucony and stable neutral shoes. They bake some level stability into all of their shoes. The Speed 4 is VERY stable. Does Brooks make a Hyperion GTS? If they do that would be an option too. Happy to have earned the sub. Thank you for watching!

[@justoutlaw6423]

So, DN3 a big downgrade from DN2. I like DN2 more then Boston 12. With so many option available, we should all choose to get the most for our money. Thanks.

[@SagasuRunning]

DN2s seem like they will be in demand this year. Get them before they are gone.

[@maswepe2409]

I have wide foot (2E), seems still more comfort to use DN-2 rather than DN-3. As visual DN-3 little bit thinner than DN-2. Isn't it?

[@SagasuRunning]

I never ran in the DN2, but the DN3 is definitely a tighter more race like fit.

[@jonathandougan5446]

Would any of those two shoes compliment my daily run novablast 4? For half marathon distance?

[@SagasuRunning]

The ES4 will be a better compliment. The geometry will feel much better and tie a better shoe overall.

[@brianreiter5572]

It must be so hard to design, engineer and produce a modern performance shoe. It has to have a ton of complex materials and design features that everyone just takes for granted. And they have to produce them in volume and distribute them worldwide at a relatively low price point.

[@SagasuRunning]

It is… and sometimes things get missed or overlooked. However, it’s a disconnect when the team is so “excited” about the product and yet the actual product falls flat. That means there is a disconnect somewhere. This happen and courses can be changed. Hopefully that happens…

[@brianreiter5572]

Maybe something changed from prototype to large scale production that they thought was de minimus but actually de-tuned the entire experience?

[@SagasuRunning]

Possibly. It does feel to me that Puma is VERY focused on the DNE3 and all their Olympic expectations…. Where the DN3 Nair feels like an afterthought. They definitely needed to get their race shoes into the super shoe conversation. They have been on the fringes of it. It feels like they have arrived with the DNE3 and Fast-R2… so maybe next year the trainers will get some attention.

[@jesustsa1]

Do you think break in would help the deviate? Or as you commented on Reddit? A heavier runner?

[@SagasuRunning]

It will loosen the Nitro layer under the plate but it won't fix the problems with the plate design or the Nitro Elite foam. (As I said on Reddit) A heavier runner who is a heel striker will do decently in this shoe.

[@MrCjben]

Good shoes to compare 👍👍Yep.. The Endorphin Speed 4 is great.. it has become more of a versatile, more stable, though i personally felt less snappier compared to its previous versions. nevertheless it is still a very fast and bouncy shoe, Haven't tried the Puma yet.. maybe soon.

[@SagasuRunning]

I can highly recommend the ES4…. But definitely not the DN3.

[@nickwalker8975]

Everyone has different mechanics, so shoes can be terrible for some and amazing for others. Puma has become my "go to" brand in recent years, so I had to try the DN3 for myself. Despite my bias towards Puma, I have to admit that I fully agree with your comments. They look amazing out of the box (I tried the black and white colourway with no NITRO logo), but to actually run in them, they're like the shoe equivalent of a black hole. I'm sending them back. I've only tried out the Speed 4 on a store's treadmill and they felt significantly better than the DN3. DN2 is more evenly matched with the Speed 4 in my limited opinion, although it depends on what you're using them for. Speed 4 seemed the slightly quicker shoe, but not as good offroad. I'm hoping that for the DN4, Puma effectively just brings back the DN2 with revised styling so people can make a distinction between the two models. On a more positive note, the DNE3 is brilliant...at least for me.

[@SagasuRunning]

I’m glad I’m not alone with my experience in the DN3! I’m not crazy. The ES4 is a shoe it never take off road/trails. It’s just too soft overall. The outsole will do ok, but all the holes exposing the foam will be rock and mud catchers. We will see what the DN4 is. Maybe the sales of the DN3 will be low enough that they go back to the roots of the series. If they do, I’ll definitely cover it.

[@MrEirik3000]

After using the Speed 3 for 800km on gravel I bought a pair of the Deviate 3. I agree with you 100% in the way you describe the foam in the Deviate 3. But this is something I wanted to build strong legs. I believe the combination of gravel and a low energy return workhorse of a shoe will make me stronger. The fast stuff I can do on the track in the On Cloudspike Amplius, Vaporfly or Alphafly. Hopefully the Deviate 3 will last as long as the Speed 3! @sagasurunning

[@SagasuRunning]

The Velocity Nitro 3 would be a better bet for how you are using the shoe. You don't need the plate in the DN3, not that it really does anything though. Plus the outsole on the VN3 is much better for more terrain. I'm glad you found a use for the DN3 though...

[@MrEirik3000]

@@SagasuRunning I see! Will keep the velocity in mind next time

[@videoforum4047]

Did you like the deviate 2?

[@SagasuRunning]

Never ran in it. So no opinion on it.

[@TheMirekp]

Given you dislike the puma shoe so much, what is the point of comparing it with anything?

[@SagasuRunning]

This is an important comparison people are looking for and need to know about…. So they can make en educated discussion. This will be the last time the DN3 is mentioned on this channel.

[@Fozzee.1970]

😂​@@SagasuRunning

[@27泓佑劉]

You destroyed the dn3😂 why humiliate it more

[@SagasuRunning]

This is an important comparison that I think alot of people are looking for and they need to know. (This is the last time you’ll see the DN3 mentioned on this channel)

[@dariusjs7]

@@SagasuRunningI remember asking for this comparison somewhere on Strava. Watching this impressions video it really reminds me of a show I own which belongs in the bin … ASICS gt2000 11 gtx. It has 0 compliancy and 0 resiliency. It’s just a brick. The only reason I still have it is its goretex, I’m in the Netherlands and it rains a lot here. I can probably ditch them now that I have a bigger collection.

[@philipppuchner1115]

@@dariusjs7 Jep! Best GT2000 eas #10. #11 is wider and much firmer. Too hard for me. And #12 is just a brickstone! There is ZERO roll and flex, it doesn't maztter how you land, it is infinately stiff and claps hard onto the ground. And I have 90kg/200lbs and cannot bend the shoe. Returned it after a shortended 5km run - worst experiance I have ever had! Looking at the shore hardnes rating at runrepeat, the new #13 should be softer again, somewhere between #10 and #11. Not that I was interestes in a GT2000 any more ;)

[@JoseJose-dm1iw]

👍

[@SagasuRunning]

🤙🏻

[@TrailJogger]

For me the TYR Valkyrie Speedworks is a better version of the Speeds

[@SagasuRunning]

I'm aware these exist, but they are not available here in Taiwan.

[@mylesgalos6465]

Prefer puma, saucony brands running shoes before others

[@SagasuRunning]

We all have our favorites. Part of running is figuring out what works best for you.

[@OSUCarol]

The "unlively" graphic took me out lol

[@SagasuRunning]

Out of?

[@OSUCarol]

@@SagasuRunning in a good way. I meant it made me laugh at how brutal a shoe the DN3 is

[@SagasuRunning]

@OSUCarol It’s rough… for sure. In such an odd way too. For a shoe as firm as it is, it’s really an odd mix.

[@brianreiter5572]

Why are only the Germans using supercritical TPEE?

[@SagasuRunning]

If I had to guess I bet it involves BASF somewhere. Though it seems Puma is moving away from it by next year. I hope Adidas doesn’t also abandon it for their PEBA LSPE…

[@brianreiter5572]

@@SagasuRunning BASF makes sense. Ostensibly BASF produced Boost TPU. I thought that the TPEE came from Shincell in China but from their website it appears that Shincell is specialized in supercritical foaming of plastics and their feed stock comes from BASF, Huntsman and DuPont. Maybe the source TPEE plastic is from BASF and Shincell are a subcontractor in the supply chain doing the supercritical foaming process to produce the midsoles. Presumably all of the shoes that use Lightstrike Pro are assembled in China so that would be convenient.

[@hernan0201]

For me, Speed 2 is still the better Speed😂😂

[@SagasuRunning]

I know that’s the fan favorite for sure. 🤙🏻

[@petros7531]

The speed 4 is totally bad shoe no any bounce, your body suffers for every mile and no forgiveness 😤 after 3 miles it gets flat

[@SagasuRunning]

I’ve not experienced that at all in the ES4. However, that was my experience with the DN3…

[@SpencerStonelights]

Only person I’ve heard say that.