Pursuing photography as a career - the pros & cons

[@joeymccallion]

What drew me towards photography as a hobby and what got me good at it was being an introvert. Marketing, dealing with clients, being the centre of attention in a portrait session, failure, are all things that induce huge anxiety!

[@stvdicorsa]

Passion is quite often a lonely game. If you pursue it with all your energy it can be difficult to share. This is why I like your channel. I can feel you have the same urge for sharing and you are facing very similar challenges.

[@KyleMcDougall]

Thank you Stefano.

[@zach_deloach]

I absolutely loved the topic you touched on of not needing to take everything you love and turn it into a business. I feel like it's something younger people are really being pressured with currently, ESPECIALLY in the realm of tik tok.. "Hey i made a jacket out of some old levi's jeans and people liked it, I guess i have to make an etsy shop and a shopify and scale a whole business now." People are struggling with doing and trying things simply out of curiosity and genuine interest in doing it and THAT reason being enough of a reason to try it in the first place. Really enjoyed this video, thanks for sharing Kyle.

[@KyleMcDougall]

Thanks Zach. Yeah, I’m not familiar with Tik Tok that much, but I hear what you’re saying. I think right now we have amazing opportunities with these platforms to share work, connect, and market ourselves better than ever, but that doesn’t mean that everything always has to be about growing/building something. Nothing wrong with pursuing a craft purely based around a love of doing it. Glad you enjoyed this one!

[@mr.oppenthunder2527]

Great video. Very honest and informative. I had the realization a few years ago that in order for me to be the kind of documentary photographer that I wanted to be that I could not be a photographer for a living. If I worked as a photographer I actually wouldn't be able to afford shooting my projects which involve extensive traveling and lots of film.

[@millerviz]

I, like you, have spent a lifetime making businesses of my passions. On the whole it sure beats a 9 to 5 day, but itkilled my passion in almost every case. A passion, especially a creative one, is not meant to sustain the pressures of making a living. It doesn't work unless you can make a living doing only what you want when you want. That's not easy!

[@lentitudes]

I needed to listen this, i was hoping to have this conversation with someone in the area, but it's difficult. I have been "quitting" since 2016, but always something appear and I decide to continue, but now I just let it go, it's so stressfull for me. I need to take care of the things that I love to do, to enjoy them even if I dont do money through them anymore. But it's sad. So, now I only dedicate myself to photography, most film photography and I really want to live/work doing that , but this times are like an experiment so I dont really know what to do. I really needed this video, it's all I think about lately. THANKS!

[@KyleMcDougall]

Glad you connected with this one. Cheers.

[@BenjoC8632]

Great video! I’m fortunate enough to have a great career, but I’ve certainly run into blockades personally with my film photography, almost like a sort of writer’s block. Trying to force myself to get back out there and shoot!

[@AdrianRankin]

Thanks Kyle for this very honest and transparent video, very helpful to hear your thoughts on photography as a career. Much appreciated.

[@thecrazyanchovy9218]

This is game changing for me. I'm DOP on some large scale Entertainment shows and I genuinely feel far less creatively fulfilled and photography has been my life saver in the Pandemic. I needed a small bit of guidance and thank you for your videos. Most wonderful . Thank you

[@KyleMcDougall]

Cheers Adam. Glad you connected with this!

[@camerachica73]

I'd also say where you're based is a big factor - the wedding and family photography market in the US is way different to Europe. In general, British people don't really care for having a pro photographer taking photographs of their family. We don't do holiday cards really and it's just not a thing for a lot of people. The weddings market is also very hard here. Travel photography has limited outlets and after spending a few thousand on a trip, you'll be lucky to make £250 back in sales. Probably the biggest travel magazine has used a lot of my images without payment, but any images they've struggled to source from individual photographers, they're happy to pay Getty Images for what they want. The most well known independent travel issue also doesn't pay unless it's commissioned. This is a real racket where they know photographers are desperate for some exposure, but don't want to reward them financially on any level. Phew! You can tell I'm burned out!

[@camerachica73]

By the way all my work is shot on film.

[@AlisterMalcolm]

That's an interesting take on the British public and wedding photography. Thinking about it i'd have to somewhat agree, most weddings I know have been shot by family friends for free to help their portfolio or by a student for cheap. A lot of people in the UK don't seem to want to spend that much on wedding photographers, I've been asked a few times despite it not being my thing, and I know the reason is because they know me and hope to get it cheaper.

[@mforfilm4833]

Thanks a lot for this Kyle! It’s like we tend to think that in order to be fully committed or even good at something, we need to go “pro”. As if we couldn’t be this beautiful photographer, this happily fulfilled filmmaker without the label of full time work/monetization. Enjoyed the video as always, hope the new UK life is good!

[@luissalazar2021]

Great job, that’s is why is called a passion and not a career , if we could make money with our passion it’s great. Making great images is good but is who you know. From my experience

[@fado605]

Thank you for the video and for your thoughts. I have been self employed for the last forty years, and I don't recommend trying to earn a living doing what you love. The stress and anxiety of earning a living takes too much of a toll, I think. I always tried to pursue what interests me on my free time.

[@morethanyoucaretosee]

I like no 🧢 Kyle

[@KyleMcDougall]

😁

[@floorprincess]

Thanks Kyle. Watching this really helped me think through some 'what should I do' struggles lately.

[@KylerSteele]

Photography business is 100% you get out what you put in. Can have flexible hours or get burnt out in a few weeks

[@Ry_Gordon]

I always really appreciate your insights Kyle! Thanks for keeping with this youtube stuff! This is basically everything I have struggled with for the last few years and I feel it still comes down to a fine juggle most of the time of being able to do the projects that keep me happy but also paying the bills.

[@KyleMcDougall]

For sure man. It’s an ever evolving process!

[@lukemerrill1272]

This was really helpful... food for thought... thanks Kyle!

[@KyleMcDougall]

You're welcome. Cheers.

[@Fuzzbrause]

A couple of years ago I came across a very interesting concept (whilst listening to NPR TED Radio hour): it is less about making your passion to your career/profession, it is rather about bringing your passion along with you into your career. When I was young I wanted to become a rock star. I was so passioned about music. But it is very complicated to make a living with music. Hence I studied chemistry. First of all you might think that it isn´t as fulfilling as music, but if you are really trained in chemistry you have to and you can be very creative to solve the problems that you are faced every day.

[@scruvydom]

Great video man! I’m a long term photographer and I’ve been preparing to start a KZbin channel, and thus really helped me refine my expectations put things in perspective. The idea that documenting the creative process is in some ways in opposition to the creative process itself, it’s so intuitive it not something I had considered. Keep up the good work!

[@KyleMcDougall]

Thanks Dominic! Glad you enjoyed this.

[@b3arodactyl]

Really insightful advice, thanks for the video. Can totally see how you enjoy giving advice and helping people with photo careers and stuff, your advice is clearly super heartfelt and wise.

[@KyleMcDougall]

I appreciate that. Thank you!

[@TheBigNegative-PhotoChannel]

Kyle without a shield cap? That feels criminal. 😄 Thanks for the video there were really good tips. A previous criminal hobby that becomes a profession can also quickly turn out to be a problem. Not everyone is made to be self-employed. I'm glad to have found film photography so that I can enjoy my job again. 😀

[@Brause_Market]

That was super helpful, I also liked your last thought posting in your insta story that was about "don't post stuff because of the fear what others think about it. - just do it". Keeps me motivated. Thanks.

[@KyleMcDougall]

Thanks. Glad you connected with that one.

[@fenoirmanachesco]

I completely agree with your point on not trying to work on a project and also think about how you're going to record your process to share a behind the scenes. I've been finding distracting lately having my phone with me when I go out to shoot, finding notifications and other alerts too easily pull my focus away. I can only imagine how hard it would be to even attempt the kind of project work you want to do and not lose focus while also giving some focus to some kind of BTS content too.

[@KyleMcDougall]

For sure. It’s a balance I’m still trying to figure out for the times when I am doing it for this channel. I have a few new things I’m going to try out for some future vids. Cheers, Matt.

[@labradorhund7769]

There's something I need to get off my chest about camera and roll reviews: Most KZbin Channels say that they don't really like doing it, but the thing is ... it's how I found most of the channels that I have now subscribed to for the other content. Found Jamie Windsor because he did a video on the Fujifilm 100s and I took mine to London and was looking for more info. I found Matt Day because I wanted an M6 and found his video. I found Evan Ranft because of the Fujifilm 100 series. I found your channel because of a video about a medium format camera. I found T. Hopper because she did a video on a Fuji film that I considered buying. The list goes on and on! It might not be the most interesting stuff (although I love talking about gear that I've used for a long time), but it's something people watch and I guess many - like me - stay for the other content then. I don't get why it gets so much hate. Is it because there are some people arguing talking about gear makes it more expensive?

[@KyleMcDougall]

I actually don’t mind doing gear reviews at all. For me, as mentioned in the video, it all comes down to not trying to put too much pressure to try and also create ‘portfolio’ work at the same time while I’m filming and using the camera.

[@clarhettcoalfield3616]

As always a great video Kyle, maybe this is something that doesn't need to be said - but, you are very concise with the information you share with us, and it's truly appreciated. Now, to add, I'm sort of coming at this from a completely amateur point of view, but film photography for me is a hobby, I've never had an interest in pursuing it as a monetary vehicle. Although I do make money from it, repairing, restoring and fixing old analogue film cameras, and I've been doing that as a side thing for more than 35 years. There can be found I believe many passions in varying facets of the same pursuit, I also tend to be creative in multiple areas of my life, and I think this is also a positive trait to develop in reaching the end goal, whatever that may be. Cheers, stay safe.

[@KyleMcDougall]

Thanks, Clarhett!

[@jchiodo]

Great to hear your thoughts on this Kyle, it's super important that stuff like this is talked about! I tried starting up my own Wedding Photography business and all-in-all it went great, but ultimately stopped doing it because it wasn't the kind of work I wanted to continue doing. I love making pictures selfishly, and taking photos for someone else felt off because I wasn't ever invested - which is unfair to everyone in the process. Instead now I've paired photography with a different idea - media management and I'm making an app for logging data. I'm really happy with this direction because this way I created a tool instead of using existing tools to make work. Thought I would share my experiences with photography so far. Keep up the good work Kyle, always enjoying listening to your thoughts!

[@KyleMcDougall]

Thanks for sharing your story Josh. Sounds like you got something great going that works for you. Cheers!

[@timothy-holt]

Such great insight coming from someone who is clearly passionate about the creative process. Thanks for sharing Kyle, you perspective is refreshing. Cheers, Tim

[@KyleMcDougall]

Thanks Tim, I appreciate that.

[@creativestation11]

thank you for making this video it really helps out.

[@johnmorgado8676]

oh so this is why you are so good at making these. Maybe one day you can do a video on "how to make a good youtube video"

[@sarahdippity]

Thanks for all this sage advice, Kyle. Funny thing is as a filmmaker I love your channel because I love your filmmaking skills and how beautiful your films are. I'm also a photographer and I do enjoy your photos as well. But the main reason I am a huge fan is that I admire your filmmaking skills so much. Your films on this channel and elsewhere are just amazing!! Even if you talk about things I have no interest in in your films, I still love watching them just to admire the process you go through to make these gorgeous, informative films!!! Whatever you make on KZbin Kyle, I will watch! You mentioned that your passion is to make documentary photography ... not documentary films? Just curious.

[@KyleMcDougall]

Thanks so much, Sarah! I really do appreciate the support. As for documentary photography, yes, I'd say that's what I'm most interested in on the still side of things. But documentary filmmaking is what interests me the most on the video side.

[@tylerhuttosmith]

I really enjoyed this. I worked at a video production house as a PA, set builder, grip, and AC. Not a big fan of net 30 pay, but I learned a lot. I now work in a completely unrelated industry in a 9-5 position. It’s a bizarre change from being freelance to 9-5 but I do like the security. All of that said, I do still like the idea of building up a photo or video brand hence my tiny channel. Anyway, thank you for all that you do!

[@KyleMcDougall]

Thanks, Tyler!

[@daryljohnson9010]

Real. Practical. Loved it.

[@KyleMcDougall]

🙏

[@morrisbagnall2690]

Really enjoyed this Kyle. Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts and experiences on this subject.

[@KyleMcDougall]

Thanks Morris. 🙏

[@perenadal1735]

Thanks for sharing it. Very helpful!

[@KyleMcDougall]

You're welcome.

[@Vexies]

I'm scared, socially to try and do photography as a job. Also taxes scare me when you're self employed. I also assume I'd eventually get bored, so changing things frequently is a must do for my workflow.

[@KyleMcDougall]

All of those are things that just come with the endeavour. It's important to step outside of your comfort zone and embrace the 'what ifs'.

[@nathanwabre]

Great points, couldn’t agree more! As a professional photographer and filmmaker I definitely keep my professional and personal work separate. I also think that if you wanna go an live of your passion you should be prepared to work 8 days a week haha 😅

[@KyleMcDougall]

For sure. Especially in the early years it can be crazy as you figure things out.

[@ReimannPembroke]

Great video as always man! It was really interesting hearing a little bit of your backstory in the beginning. It can be a little bit of a nuisance having to make videos about that thing that you really need all of your brain power and creative juice to create or do. I think the real goal should be doing something you enjoy and being your own boss. Maybe don't try to do your favorite thing as your job. Use the career to give you the time a resources to do what you really love the most!

[@KyleMcDougall]

For sure. It’s going to be different for everyone and it’s an ever evolving process.

[@jakesteurrys4225]

Great video Kyle awesome advice thank you

[@NunoAlmeidaPhotography]

Great chat, Kyle!

[@ThePresentMoment23]

I just bought a Canon EOS M50 Mark ii in 2023. I own an iPhone 12 Pro Max. I might have taken a better picture with the iPhone.

[@Pentax67]

Photography brought me sadness and depression. I have all the best gear .. gfx 50s , 6 Pentax 67 105mm 2.4, canon 85mm 1.2 , canon 50mm 1.0... models has no interest in me even though I’m taking really beautiful portraits. My Instagram never grew more than 800 followers. A lot of jealous people on Instagram having jealousy of my work and gear, not giving credits. A lot of models saying :” it’s your passion why I have to pay for you”. “Oh you have few followers I don’t wanna shoot with you” Basic point it’s better to shoot for yourself your own enjoyment and not for Instagram Ps; I’m professional and self employed

[@AlisterMalcolm]

I don't think I know any KZbinr that hasn't found making a video whilst taking photos extremely hard. It definitely can affect the quality of either the video or photo, it's very hard to get a good balance. Even myself, starting out in October, I've found I've just had to think less about the video-side and more about the photographs otherwise the quality drops. I think a video is much more salvageable and when you figure out an easy process of making one while you go and shoot, its okay to let the quality of it drop. But definitely never the photographs. They absolutely have to come first.

[@carlomac]

Such a great video, I think a lot about this as well, great just to hear your take on it. I love documentary work and my challenge has been getting traction in that from a commercial perspective, i’ve found it very difficult, but I’m just mindful that perhaps it’s something I do in my spare time away from my earning job, there are some advantages and disadvantages to that approach as you touched on.

[@KyleMcDougall]

Absolutely. For a lot of doc style work, unless you’re getting funding for something, it’s all going to be based on if you can find a client where that style works for them. And then there will always be some sort of limitations. But it’s doable.

[@rossawilson01]

Great advice. I've met so many filmmakers who got into the industry because it's related to what they love to do; make films. But usually what they really want to make is not profitable so they take corporate and wedding gigs. Either they end up hating filmmaking or they get locked into golden handcuffs. Which is where you earn a really nice living build a lifestyle and then can't possibly think about doing what you really want because you're way too busy and have massive business and financial commitments. If you love what you do, follow Kyle's advice; be honest about whether you can make money from it, if not you're better off doing something completely different to make money that leaves you enough time for art. That's a very modern and western privilege. Be grateful for it. All you have are memories at the end of the day, so make em good ones.

[@KyleMcDougall]

Well said. Cheers, Ross!

[@meyiwaaniretan]

I love your video (Pros and Cons). I anxiously need to connect with you.

[@ucevrim]

Whenever you’re failing at what you do, you teach it - Bill Burr

[@carlomac]

Rubbish, some of the greatest photographers in history have taught their craft.

[@tobywoolgar9517]

I don't want to make money persay but i like lots of different parts of photography from landscape, birds, street, macro etc. Now i want to do just one really but well theres my problem and i also like using film.

[@thenexthobby]

Side hustles are how to introduce enthusiasts to earning money from any endeavor. People actually in a place to enter photography as a career likely don’t watch YT videos about it, I’d wager.

[@iemwill9429]

love the mic! what is the brand of it? let me know

[@SkinnyWasHere]

The pop filter blocks that beautiful beard

[@musicdude1546]

It does hahaha!

[@KyleMcDougall]

😄

[@whowho8470]

Good thoughts. Thanks for sharing. This is definitely a common theme: photographers trying to make a living doing photography. But how? I often see small businesses where you think to yourself well that person prob really loves (whatever the business is) but prob not a very good business idea! Their passion will quickly turn into a burden. I actually own a business that I am not necessarily passionate about. It's a tire shop. But, it pays me well and I have good people working for me so I can go and do what I enjoy like overlanding, hiking and of course photography.

[@danielerdos3046]

I know it's an impossible question with so many variables...but what do you think is a ballpark number you can make only with photography (selling prints, zines, maybe a book, maybe do some workshops, maybe with competitions, maybe selling 1-2 to a magazine) that doesn't have a huge market (so street, docu, abstract, minimal, etc instead of wedding, portrait, interior) on avg in the first year when starting a business? I know it'll depend more on how well you're with marketing, sales, etc. And first 6 month you are lucky if you break even...is something like 300-500$ seems real in profit, or is likely way less?

[@xianluyi3146]

You are amazing

[@matthewpoburyny5147]

From your experience making short documentaries on people of interest to you, would you say there is a potential business to be had in creating these types of min docs? They are some of my favourite things consume and I absolutely loved yours, just curious about your thoughts on this.

[@KyleMcDougall]

For sure there is, but once a client is involved they’ll never be the same as passion project with no guidelines. Different for every one really.

[@wolz71]

Hey Kyle, super interesting video as always! Just one small suggestion: I know it might sound silly, but this blue volume light underneath your monitor has been driving me crazy since I first saw it😅 I try to look at your face, but once I noticed it, I found it very distracting. Do you think there is a way to cover it up? Keep up the great work💪🏻

[@KyleMcDougall]

Noted! 😁 I’ll tape it up just for you.

[@wolz71]

@@KyleMcDougall Oh no, now I feel bad haha

[@fyzd3r]

Nice hair Kyle!

[@KyleMcDougall]

😁

[@rafaeltavares6928]

Pros- Probably +- happy Cons- Very hungry

[@federicomuciaccia9191]

given the intimate topic of the video, the microphone is a big distractive factor: it partially hides your face, it's stealing the focus (literally) and it's in the very center of the frame. it's like the subject, but it shouldn't be... try to keep the microphone off the frame (and a bit more distant from your mouth, to avoid distracting sounds)

[@bc8715]

Shhhhhhh shhhhhh child

[@clarhettcoalfield3616]

@@bc8715 You beat me to it.......lol

[@Fuzzbrause]

every job has its monday

[@Bighomiezombo]

Any advice on pursuing it in area where the services aren’t “appreciated”? Moving isnt an option at the moment but 9 years of this and still getting beat out by the “family photographers” is getting disheartening.

[@nathanwabre]

From a business standpoint, you have to provide the client a solution or creat a desire that becomes something they wanna buy and pay you money for. What kind of images are you trying to do/sell and what do you mean by « non appreciated » ?

[@KyleMcDougall]

I’d echo what Nathan said and am also curious about the not appreciated part.

[@alexkane1]

curious what you would do if it wasnt photography/ videography?

[@KyleMcDougall]

That’s a great question... something based around travel possibly...

[@runninblue9415]

I never took it beyond a hobby as I want creative control. To take the pictures I want, for me. Not be under pressure to take the pictures someone else wants. For them. Also I'm rubbish at Capitalism. And photography 🤣

[@mymenare]

views were 1248, next time it will be 124816, seriously watch your videos often... and enjoy your content....

[@KyleMcDougall]

Thank you. 🙏

[@megzjr]

Kyle is the Godfather

[@KyleMcDougall]

🙏

[@northrouter]

Yeah... very vague man. Nothing new there, was hoping you would share YOUR experience not just abstract concepts everyone already know 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@KyleMcDougall]

Any specifics things you’d like to hear talked about?

[@MaxLamdin]

no hat = floofy hair

[@eccentricsmithy2746]

The most successful photographers business wise are doing it in the shadows with no KZbin or social media foolishness. You tubers think they are some sort of celebrity or famous person and will make their nest egg from it, they are sorely mistaken. You are not famous or a celebrity if you are on KZbin. Its fake famous. The most successful photographers that make money do not get their clients from KZbin or social media. Making these videos for pennies is pointless and a HUGE waste of time. Want to be successful in your passion? Stop wasting time trying to impress people on KZbin and social media and go out a literally get your clients and sales. I landed my largest sales(6 figures or more) in person, not over internet.

[@musicdude1546]

Am I first to comment? Yay!!!

[@JasonRenoux]

the audio creeped me out - sorry Kyle but it did put me off, I know you put a great deal of effort into it but hearing you breathe, swallow, and all kind of weird mouth noises is not my cuppa. Will wait for the next video :) cheers

[@KyleMcDougall]

Fair enough. Thanks for the feedback. Just a heads up, the large mic returns three episodes from now. I recorded it right after this one. 😁

[@JasonRenoux]

@@KyleMcDougall looking forward to your next upload ;) I like what you do. I am reading and watching as much info as I can about 4x5, watched your videos and still haven't taken the plunge. Any advice you would give to a 4x5 beginner? I shoot medium format and do my dev process. Thanks

[@tigerareyouthere]

Hehe hey a fellow misophoniac! 👋🏻