What If I Told You... Zovaal Is NOT The Jailer?

[@GustavoNoronha]

The main clue that this is the true story is how much descriptions of the Primus emphasize that he would never lose a battle, that his tactics are beyond anything - and then they feed you the most absurd story about him going alone to face Zovaal like a noob and becoming a prisonar. It is clear that the only way for the Primus to be defeated is if his being defeated is what he wants and advances his goals.

[@Pyromancer]

Yes! It's absolutely ridiculous!

[@ariex0a]

@@Pyromancer I personally think this is just a bad attempt at making the Zovaal look cosmically dangerous, in an attempt to validify their poor villain. They changed the concept art because of lack of planning, because they didn't have things put together yet. We see this in Dragonflight as well. It is just poor story work. And I would prefer to forget Shadowlands alltogether, let alone give it credit for being thought out and elaborate.

[@siutsun]

⁠@@Pyromancerdo you think they will wrap this up in the last titan expansion?

[@fosterbennington6405]

@@ariex0aThanos syndrome, hate to see it.

[@mewberthildimew9037]

Or it could just be, like... bad writing. Good lore, but bad writing. Writers who don't read a lot of related litterature, who refuse to admit they're simply not a good fit for WoW's setting. I mean, the lead narrative designer is on record saying the ending to Game of Thrones was brilliant. I don't know if I'll trust the writing acumen of someone who thinks like that.

[@ClessTheAngel]

Also, if you look at Zovaal's last cutscene, you don't see a shot of the Primus' face, unlike the other Eternal Ones.

[@chance1113]

100%, blizz were going in that direction, but likely ran out of time. I don't think they intended on his face not being shown in that scene for what we eventually got, but it ended up like that due to that particular scene likely originally planned to have been part of an earlier portion of the main quest chain, giving us more context early on during the expansion, but they changed up the story late because of time constraints and re-used (re-purposed more like) it for the final scene. Another hint at that was the 2nd to last cut scene where we see the soul forge clip being rendered differently to the rest of that cut scene...yet another clip that was probably originally intended to be used must earlier on in the expansion but clipped and mushed together for the pin-ultimate scene leading into the boss fight

[@Advon]

They don't just avoid showing the Primus's face. The Primus's shadow looms over and slowly envelops Zovaal.

[@orkunakman1541]

Because the end ing cinematic was probably not supposed to be the "ending" cinematic. It was probably repurposed from an earlier cinematic, in a patch where we don't know that the primus is the prisoned dude helping us.

[@orkunakman1541]

​@@chance1113oh yes exactly.

[@randomguy9236]

The Crown of Light part made me think of the N'zoth Quote: "The light has struck a bargain with the enemy of all." Most people thought it's about Lothraxion but it would be cool if it was about some bigger Light / Primus connection.

[@joshuakuhlman5603]

Well, the enemy of all is definitely death.

[@bl_ss]

You have to wonder what the hell that bargain even is now.

[@jtowensbyiii6018]

@joshuakuhlman5603 death is the friend of life, always has been, the cycle of life and death

[@calamity0.o]

All part of balance of existence. The chaos of life and peace of death. In this case, the Order of Death. Look at titans from a Dr Who brain and I see beings so intent on order meaning unchanging perfection that they have become zealots to their cause. They took the early life on azeroth and tried to shape it into unchanging forms.

[@georgealex4757]

and let's not forget the illgynoth quote "the golden one claims a vacant throne, the crown of light will bring only darkness", fits pelagos very well

[@RantechRadio]

Zovaal didn’t really give the vibes of somebody very smart or in control, more like a caricature puppet manipulated into being a generic bad guy for us to chase while the primus orchestrated events in the background. The dude was a tactician and archiver in the afterlife of battle. Being a master of manipulation magic, it makes far far more sense that the primus was the real architect for events that happened from lvl king to shadowlands. Zovaal even had a total tonal change as he was defeated as he went from Saturday morning cartoon villain to trying to warn us as the magic faded and he reverted to his proto form. He felt like a puppet because he was. And the primus walks off Scott free for now because we the agents of chaos have written it all off and went elsewhere thinking a job well done as we beat a big bad. The runes are all connected. All the art is usually done intentionally, so it all adds up. Question is will it come full circle or get dropped by the writers?

[@OmnusRubenn]

"The Light has struck a bargain with the enemy of all." i.e. the titans. Also, it's cool you can hear chains from the primus in Zovaal's death cinematic. I hadn't paid attention to hear that. Also: if Zereth is a name for what has been captured/ordered/claimed then Azeroth might literally mean "unclaimed" or "unclaimable" or "un-orderable"

[@So_Stupendous]

Duuuude A-zerith I thought of that too!!! Far out man. Was cool to see someone else think of that

[@khululyp]

Unclaimable... As in unobtainable wich makes Azerite... Unobtanium?

[@rebbeach3902]

Denathrius’s line in his memory feels like they tried getting zovaal in on the pan but he decided not to and in turn gets dominated

[@QQNola]

Exactly!!

[@TaliesinMyrddin]

This theory was one of my favourite articles on Wowhead of all time, even during Shadowlands. I hope it ends up panning out.

[@Finnboy-ml5jv]

Originally, he wasn’t. The early concept art hinted at Primus being the jailer.

[@xXLucromXx]

Maybe they leaked it on purpose showing ppl the real badguy

[@keithb6344]

@@xXLucromXxthey ran out of time and had to re-write a ton of crap repurposing stuff they already had.

[@xXLucromXx]

@@keithb6344 even if they rushed the story they left it open cause most ppl think we killed the jailer w/o questioning the vessel that was left behind and if the arbitor is being controlled now it would be very wierd if that goes unnoticed

[@backstabbath2690]

@@xXLucromXxI wouldn’t mind them revisiting this stuff if it’s handled better and if we don’t have to go into their realm again. Lore issues aside, I hated going into the afterlife though sire Denathrius stuff was dope

[@listenkids]

@@xXLucromXx Blizzard are absolutely not that smart

[@altervaas]

Man....This ACTUALLY made me want to reconsider lore and have some sense of hope. I may be a fool for doing so, but here's hoping.

[@xXLucromXx]

Keep in mind, sylvanas is still there w/o knowing we didnt kill the jailer

[@snazzydrew]

Yep! I get the feelings she's still working toward the ends of freeing us from this prison.

[@WitheringZealot]

@@snazzydrew riiiiiight

[@snazzydrew]

@@WitheringZealot still salty about things?

[@jakubcislak9246]

And to add, Metzen confirmed that the Titan's return to Azeroth in The Last Titan, and they land in Ulduar. This just so happens to be the closest titan facility to Ice Crown where the Forge of Souls is.

[@yucku]

i would actually accept the primus being behind everything, and not zovaal. just the way the primus was set up waaaay better than zovaal at being a mastermind planner.

[@Lewolf2716]

There was a leak 1 or 2 years ago on 4chan from a « former dev » that was talking about what was supposed to be shadowland story line, Andiun revealed to be arthas’s son, the capital was supposed to be tazavesh, drust and bwonsamdi were a huge threat, etc…And zovaal was in fact the jailer but the jailer was a different thing, just a jailer keeping the souls of the bad guy, and the big baddies were denathrius and the primus.But the development turn into a shitshow cuz of all the problems that blizzard got into at that time. I think bellular made a video of it if you want to check I oute

[@electricmayhem8147]

yeah it's crazy how people forgot about the things that really happened.

[@CLMJ86]

All those things would made sense yeah

[@H-D-D]

Denathrius is definitely working WITH primus though, therfore the titans as well. That is why he without even being dominated worked with zovaal, he knew primus was the one controlling zovaal. Zovaal most likely did not want to join the primus and denathrius, so they somehow framed him as a betrayer. That is why in the clip of the flashbacks that zovaal had, denathrius said "you could have sought another way brother. Imagine what we could have accomplished together"

[@TigernachVT]

Makes me wonder how much sylvanas knew of the Primus. Do we completely throw away the teaser cinematic where the Primus is behind her? Sylvanas always had an odd look on her face when she was interacting with zovaal. Like she was looking past him. We took it as her being conflicted but could there be more to it? She could have been sold with the truth about azeroth and it being a prison but the steps they the primus during SL didn't align with how she wanted to break azeroth free. Maybe?

[@Trygvar13]

The one thing that always bugged me in the cinematic was that we saw everyone EXCEPT the Primus. We heard him but we never saw him.

[@Akinon93]

lets also not forget that for some reason, the Primus seems to be a more detailed model overall than any of the other Archons. Blizzard doesn't usually put that kind of detail work in for a one off character that we only see for 1 or 2 patches only to never see or hear from again. I think we can also possibly see Danthrius working with Zovaal as a kind of proof. I mean, Denathrius was one of the ones that helped to imprison Zovaal, so why join him afterwards? Possibly, Zovaal got to him and told him of the truth, and was able to convince him, which is why Denathrius turned into the "bad guy". I do think that the Primus was meant to be the original big bad guy, but halfway through development they realized they didn't have the time to make it work, so they half assed a new bad guy in the jailer (Zovaal). I'll be honest though the idea of the Primus being the bad guy, whether he was controlling Zovaal or not, while it doesn't save the shadowlands story, it makes it way better. It immediately fills so many plot holes that the story has, including the shitty ending of "there's worse out there". I also just like the idea of one of our "allies" being our enemy without us realizing it, it's something I don't remember us having a whole lot of in WoW for a long while now, usually it's us either eliminating our enemies, or using talk no jutsu to win them over.

[@Engendroist]

Yeah, I've always been saying that the Primus should be the Jailer, instead of Zovaal (as originally intended before all the shitstorm on shadowlands). If Blizz could retcon that and pull a huge cliffhanger doing that, It would be awesome and cool, being this massive 10.000yo master tactician.

[@nathaliemlromer]

Saezurah, who you rescue and take to Exile's Hollow seems similar to Zovaal after he is de-runed. She is an Automa, but that's how Zovaal appears after he's de-runed. Almost, I would say, with an equivalent of the "curse of flesh" gone. Because that's something else to consider. Where did the curse of flesh come from in the first place. It states "from the Old Gods" did it come from them, or did someone "infect them" to spread it to all the realms of reality including the Shadowlands. There are creatures in Zereth Mortis that are "alive" but still automa is in appearance, like the effect of the curse of flesh was only PARTLY effective there. What wowpedia/warcraft wiki says: "The Curse originated from the Forge of Wills and slowly spread through the titan-forged, turning them from metal and stone to flesh beings." The Forge of Afterlives is likely linked to the Forge of Wills (for the world soul sentience) and Forge of Origination (for its shape) and the Forge of Afterlives is responsible for creating... I'd say "new realities" (rather than what it's explained as on the wiki). I'd argue that it takes the "dreams" (aka Emerald Dream) from Azeroth as she sleeps and creates a version of reality from that. I'm likely alone with the theory that Zovaal is a disposed leader, and was a good guy in a past "un-ordered" existence. I am, to this day, a rebellion happened, that had some of the lieutenants of the Primus FLEE afterwards, aka the Titans who assumed new identities and made out they were born in "reality" (our realm). If you study all aspects of Agthia's Repose, especially the details of the battle that apparently happened there, there are bits of stuff that support this idea. First question to ask... who gave the Void an entry into the Shadowlands. None other than the tactician known as the Primus, at that time still serving to true leader Zovaal. He captured Zovaal, maybe masqueraded as him, then got everyone to blame Zovaal for the attack. Got him disposed with his lieutenants, and took over. The Primus replaced all the portals that got the Void in with inert fake portals supposedly leading to many words (as you can see at The Crucible). We could assume then that at this point the First Ones all arrived. Or Second Ones as there were already people in the realms of Shadowlands if you go by what the mushroom NPC Marasmius says. There's truth in what you hear about Maldraxxus who are essentially the "reality police" but not in the way they want to. Also, if you look there there are these dead pillars that look suspiciously similar to Ardenweald's Tirneann (the tree people with Welsh names there) but all dead, burned to a crisp and now forever rotten away slowly. I think they were sent there to try to fight against the Primus and his rebellious forces. The Iron Trench is a likely perpetual battlefield still present from the battle these Tirneann were involved in. So, yes, I can buy the idea of the Primus being the villain. But all this is just head cannon at work. As in HOW I would have wanted the story to play out in the end...

[@rkramer5629]

There was so much lore potential in SL. What blizz crapped out was the greatest sin of all (ignoring the IRL shit of course)

[@Semmostaa]

Why the hell doesnt blizzard hire pyro to do some lore to this game? His analyzes and theories are so good

[@xSaDii]

This is not a new theory, it has been discussed since the end of shadowlands.

[@beeman4266]

@xSaDii I'm not massively into wow lore, mainly just raiding and m+. But I remember watching pyros theories on lore back in Legion (ohhh legion, better times) and I'm curious if any of it came true. Wasn't sure if you'd know.

[@Semmostaa]

@@xSaDii Yea, went to look youtube with this topic and saw many who said the same that Primus is true jailer. But they didnt mention the link primus have to titans

[@bobjones4469]

Bro, just do a Google search, people have been speculating about stuff like this for YEARS. Saying this now after the expansion has already been LONG over is hardly impressive.

[@Semmostaa]

@@bobjones4469 Like i said, i went search this topic and saw many speculating aboit this, BUT i said aswell that no one has said that primus may have connection to amanthul

[@Volithras]

Look at the 10.2 Demon Hunter tier set and tell me there isn't a Sargaras/Illidan/Domination hint there

[@lboutside]

I know hearthstone isn't canon but it's interesting that blizz made The Primus as a "titan" card for the DK class. While every other class (except Paladin who got a completely new titan called Amitus as their titan class card) had an existing Titan. If they create a brand new titan for Paladin why wouldn't they do the same for DK? Maybe because you are on the right lines, Primus works for the pantheon

[@duztysworld]

In Emerald Dream there is a quest where we seek one of the wild gods and he was us to answer riddles and one riddle is "What serves as protection and also a prison?" and the correct answer is "Stasis"

[@Menion98]

During the Rygelon fight he yells “through Death wil come Order” and “you fail to see what is coming”. How you so good?

[@gabrielseibeldev]

Dude you deserve to reach more people, if everyone had this info the game would be more respected

[@snazzydrew]

You know what... That's pretty on point because people like Pyro are why I even decided to give WoW a real chance. Only played for a second when I was a kid in BC... But being such a fantasy lore nerd, Pyro's videos really made me understand the appeal of the game.

[@Freyfry]

NO.

[@dennis20591]

this made so sad just to think of how good shadowlands could be

[@martinkjr3278]

I have expected the Primus to be "The Jailer" all the time and it's not even my original idea either. The part with the Light is news to me though and it makes perfect sense.

[@hallo-mt5tx]

my ideal scenario is that the shadowlands, the eternal ones and zereth mortis are made/ordered by the titans, who are called the first ones in the shadowlands thats why the eternal ones are these weird robots, similar to titan keepers through whatever means, zovaal realized or was made to turn against the order of the titans, similar to sargeras the shadowlands are like a microcosm of what the titans did to the cosmos as a whole

[@ezCat1337]

I'm so happy you are back with your WoW speculation. With your idea abou the Primus, you even rescued a lot of SL lore for me, something i thought impossible to do. Thank you for sharing for your brilliance and passion again!

[@ivanthespacebiker5390]

True man, I hate the lore of shadowlands a lot less now, just because this dude MIGHT be right.

[@MelloBear_]

It makes a ton of sense when you make a connection that order magic, light magic and domination magic are synonymous in the sense they are built around control and that the titans are trying to control everything. Makes total sense that the primus in league with amenthul did this to try to easily spread their influence across the universe

[@Varteras]

OMFG thank you. I just stumbled onto this video and I am so happy to know that I'm far from the only one who noticed so much of what you guys pointed out. I had been saying this even well before Shadowlands ended. That something didn't add up, the Primus was definitely more than what we thought, and highly unlikely for someone like him to make such a blunder as to be captured by someone he already imprisoned with his own magic. That Zovaal wasn't the real villain. At the end it made me believe even more. You guys collectively noticed even more than I did and put it all together. My hope is that by the end of The Last Titan it's revealed what the true story of Shadowlands was.

[@Ukobachful]

I'm reminded that The Primus is literally listed as a Titan within the TITANS hearthstone set. Sure, it's not truly canon to wow and might just be for the use of mechanics, but it does give thought atop all the rest of these ideas.

[@Ishtarded]

There was supposed to be a 2nd raid before sanctum in the Nightfae Zone where we fought Anduin Wrynn, but because of content cuts he got pushed to the last raid. Zovaal would’ve been in the Anduin slot, and the Primus in the Zovaal slot? Would kinda line up the story better. Instead of finishing the plot twist and actually making Shadowlands GOOD, they just punted everything and hit the GTFO button.

[@terronikus2995]

So interesting thing...in the Hearthstone Expansion about titans...the Death Knight is the Primus. although hearthstone is not cannon it did reveal what N'zoth looked like before we ever saw him in game.

[@Thromash]

The OJ art of "The Jailor" doesn't have Runes all over him, on his armor though but not his flesh. On the plus side, if there is one. Blizzard *could* later on take us back to the Shadowlands for some reason. And literally implement all of this. Continue the story of the Shadowlands by showing that the ENTIRE expansion was a part of The Primus' plan. We fell for it. At the end, Zovaal's last words could be used as a *freed* warning. Leave it for say roughly 10 years? - DF + World Soul Saga. Then go back to the Shadowlands with all of this.

[@lifeisoverated81]

Yeah, no....the Primus was 4 sure supposed to be the final boss/bad guy & Zovval was basically the "fall guy". Idk why that story line got dropped/changed, but it DEFINITELY didn't make any sense the way BLIZ did it.

[@Yroxcruk666]

This is kinda of a prime example of how wow has been treated through its entirety. They have some crazy wild ideas for world building and are incredible at developing backstories, but god DAMN they are bad at actually delivering with their stories and are incredibly bad at writing an actual story.

[@user-fv7jd4xj5n]

IMO that was the original idea for the expansion that was scrapped. Just like sargeras is shown to have jailer style armor in the 7.3 cinematic. The sword was probably gonna be used somehow.

[@beeman4266]

Or there's the whole Sargeras was the good guy and wasn't trying to kill azeroth. He was trying to free her from prison when he stabbed his sword into it. I'm partial to that one. Mainly because we need an Illidan/Sargeras team up. The ultimate redemption arc. The game is always better when Illidan is around.

[@reinoldi1097]

anyone remember SAW 1 when in the end one of the dead victims gets up and walked out (the actual badguy)? thats the primus xD its the same xD

[@AusRyno]

Isnt Maldraxus is alive and its the home of the Primus, right?..... could it be a world soul like entity, thats been experimented on in the shadowlands?

[@H-D-D]

What is up with the hole in zovaal's chest though? If you notice in the clip of his flashbacks he does not have it before he was punished and marked with domination runes, but then after he has the hole in his chest for that orb that the arbitor uses? Did the primus add that as well so he could open the way for him to get into the sepulcher?

[@timar6868]

The problem is blizzard isn’t smart enough to do a story like this yet the players see the potential and we can tell within an instant how the story should have been this is why they need to fire people like Steve D and their side quest story makers because they all suck

[@derekfrost7751]

you can even see in the original video of the jailer and sylvanas that the jailer has white hair and his eyebrows, its clearly the primus model (the video that came out with the first shadowlands cinematic)

[@archmagealodi]

The delay in releasing Sylvanas book and how story was after 9.0 supports the theory that they changed up many things last minute, makes sense.

[@archmagealodi]

Zovaal going from being The Arbiter to Jailer never made sense either.

[@Velshin1986]

What still confuses me when we did Revendreth questline in Shadowlands, it was clear that Denathrius was with Zovaal but then what we saw in the flashback during the final moments of Zovaal it was indicated as if Denathrius was against him there. Did he change his mind over the years or did he got dominated?

[@CLMJ86]

Damn thats a really good point, i never thought of this !

[@nyizaw8335]

I do hope Blizzard is reading this... This could help them cook up something... if they have no plan yet :P

[@snazzydrew]

Honestly, The Primus being the truth Jailer felt so INSANELY obvious... Then Shadowlands really dropped the ball on delivering one of the only good sets up they had for the expansion's original characters...... Sadly, things went differently in game. But Primus being the true Jailor is my main theory as well.

[@ayama7108]

Ah now the people dig it up finally. I called that shit during Shadowlands already. About time people actually see it now

[@Camps621]

I really wish that this was the actual story. Unfortunately, I don’t think blizz was able to put all that together.

[@Imorteus]

this could make what illidan is to demons, what sylvanas becomes to domination magic and "redeem" her???

[@EloquentTroll]

Pyromancer coming back to the game feels so good. My tinfoil hat is so comfy to put back on.

[@DiscordianKitty]

Wow what an interesting theory. I wonder who came up with it.

[@StefSanjatiOfficial]

I wanted to highlight this too! @Pyromancer I'm not sure if your source told you but Discordian Kitty here wrote this entire theory on WoWhead quite a while ago, before the end of Shadowlands. Might be a good idea to chat with her about lore too!

[@Monkey___]

This is so gigabrain Zovaal literally turns into a puppet at the end.

[@Percival-ig2ye]

i can't believe im geeking out over shadowlands lore right now. this is so sick

[@KiraNightV]

I wonder if Zovaal collecting the Covenant Sigils is a reflection of the Dragonflights' Aspect powers. 5 Sigils, 5 Aspects, 5 Keys. This also makes me consider that what if Xal wants to make a new Dragon Aspect using Galakrond's essence. Like how the Primus made a new Arbiter Sigil so that we can follow Zovaal.

[@DrBannanachips]

What if the ice crown citadel is a helm of domination being used on azeroth itself

[@Dreanos]

So basically Zovaal was the Janitor all along, no wonder why the Shadowlands was a mess, he was bad at his job.

[@overFZK]

damn man, I missed your lore/speculation videos, thanks for coming back to warcraft!

[@Deschained19]

This would make for a great shadowlands “redemption” expansion of sorts, or maybe a patch or two.

[@AusRyno]

shame about the twitch sounds, really takes you out of the moment

[@Cyboogie.the.Cyborg]

Imagine Sargeras and Illidan team up because he explains everything to Illy, omg.

[@vickimaroney800]

I really want this to happen!

[@ReyReyzzz]

I always had a feeling that there was WAY more to the primus that seems to be hidden or muted, but i could never put my finger on it until i watched this. He’s just way too smart to get captured by his own magic, especially since he’s the ‘tactician’ of the pantheon of death. That never made sense to me

[@ASIRA89]

Yes, the story of Shadowlands would make much more sense if the Primus was the one behind it. Even the lackluster portrail of Zovaal would make more sense if he himself turned out to be a puppet. I said it back then and I say it again. "You don't put much time and effort into a villain if you KNOW he is only a tool, that was never meant to become a big threat/thing in the story." Now the question is, did Blizzard drop the ball on this story, or will the Primus reveal himself at some point? I fear that we will never see this story in WoW. Even the end cinematic hinted at the Primus having a secret. We see all the eternal ones as they speak to Zovaal, but when the Primus speaks, we only see his shadow...

[@snazzydrew]

Also when the Primus speakers, it's happening in a different location at a different time. Before the runes were etched into Zovaal.

[@sfarsitulumi]

Did Pyro not... see this entire theory discussed on the entire internet during the shadowlands? This is nothing new lol it's been known for 1 or 2 years

[@Sindravora]

Dude, no one did. They just told themselves “huh, cool theory! Too bad shadowlands sucks” and they forget about it or never saw the theory in the first place. Its so perfect to be honest. Everyone believes they won but in reality they just killed a warlock pet, patted themselves on the back, and gave the warlock who was controlling the pet the Keyes to the kingdom. He’s the best villain because no one even knows he’s a villain. Primus means “first” or “best” for crying out loud.

[@bobbitsholiday]

I always believed the Primus was the Jailer, the wowhead article by Discordiankitty had me convinced

[@TaliesinMyrddin]

I remember it being a bit controversial at the time but it definitely would've made Shadowlands better received

[@cuzy215]

Yo this blew my mind for real!

[@snazzydrew]

Big head, Galaxy brain wishes here... But I hope that my bbygirl Sylvanas actually knew what was up and did everything she did to get her soul back (one of her main goals honestly and she accomplished it lol). Would be neat to see that she's still set on the goal of free us from the world's prison. I really want an awesome reunion with all the sisters at some point.

[@googoofeesmithersmits4536]

The last time that happened they nearly killed each other lol

[@snazzydrew]

@@googoofeesmithersmits4536 I live for the drama!

[@kronotic]

*COPIUM*

[@Jriedem]

Didn't the Titans prove to be a threat to Azeroth back in WotLK when Algalon threatened to re-originate the world during Ulduar? The Old God's corruption was his excuse and defeating Algalon was enough to change his mind, but still... If the Titans can just decide on a whim to wipe everyone out, that makes them a threat. And that should have been apparent since WotLK, at least. Right?

[@jtowensbyiii6018]

They also tried to wipe the planet again during bfa, but people are dumb and forget massive facts about the lore, they forget Arthas even ADMITS he is being controlled and people pretend it didn't happen for some reason 😂

[@Jriedem]

@@jtowensbyiii6018 Was that during the Uldir raid?

[@joaogro]

Omg. Been so long since pyro tinfoil hat theories. As crackpot they can be ate times, its still so amusing to watch haha

[@ulasseker1]

at Zovaal's last cutscene, when they captured him, there are no runes on him. So maybe Primus actually killed Zovaal and put a puppet that he made into the Maw.

[@fosterbennington6405]

I think the puppet body is just an arbiter thing

[@Dreyden-]

22:22 they don't show Primus

[@spindoggytheexplorer2915]

I’d love to get some answers from Blizz about all this, I just feel like the evidence of vast content cuts is everywhere, Korthia really does look like it was meant to be a Drust themed raid. I feel like what we got and what was meant to be were 2 entirely different stories. I highly doubt that they’ll ever go back and use this concept you’re pitching that the Primus is the real puppet master, especially after how poorly it was received that Zovaal was the puppet master. Everyone would flip dick.

[@snazzydrew]

This is one of those cases they shouldn't care about player opinion. This specific instance. Only because they did such a poor job with SL (they've come out saying they pretty much had to move on from it without developing it). The story of the Primus controlling the Jailer makes SL a much better story even with all the mess. If they focus on those elements of that story, I'm sure they could salvage something. They should at least because it ain't a bad story to tie into this conspiracy.

[@mariobrito427]

Man i love this theory! I really think it explains everything. Frankly the only flaw I can see is that it doesn't go far enough... Let me ask you: how many members are there on the Prototype Pantheon? Four. Not five. Zovaal is missing. So here's how i would amend this theory: At some point in the past, real Zovaal rebelled against the Primus. All the machinations of the Primus would be known if Zovaal was allowed to speak... so, the Primus imprisoned real Zovaal (somewhere, maybe even in Thorgast). At the same time the Primus got Prototype Zovaal, dominated it (maybe even gave it false memories that would serve his narrative better) and made it stand in for the real Zovaal in the Maw. So the real Zovaal i don't think we've even seen. Something to think about... 2 cents and all that :) Peace!

[@ProtoGJB]

Good to have you back Pyro, Good to have you back in the warcraft lore speculation that often turns out to be right on the nail.

[@NoticeThisMusic]

I think it would be cool is it was true. But I truly have zero confidence in Danuser and Golden to write something like that. They have proven over and over that they are hacks.

[@E.G.I.L.3D]

Asmon needs to see this

[@Belahl-fo4dh]

The Primus being the true villain theory has been around for a couple of years now. I think there was a big story about it on wowhead. I think it’s a better story than what we got and does answer a lot of questions and leaves the door open for a really good future villain in the Primus.

[@afishynado6812]

What will really bake your noodle is when you look back at the plot of Wrath of the Lich King and how we were working for the lich king all the way through the questing zones.

[@brybeyblade4163]

So maybe Sylvanas made a deal with the Primus and they are still working things out in Shadowlands, all according to plan?

[@azzazel_99]

dude im so glad you're back doing WoW content.

[@john1337gunit]

This is mind blowing! At the end of your video you say, "What a shame they couldn't get people to see that". Well wouldn't the Primus (and Blizzard) not want us to realize this? All part of the master plan. The people of Azeroth (the player base), we all got fooled until now if this is true. 🤔🤯

[@OkRoach]

Anyone has compared the Crown of Wills with the crown Eonar is wearing? Just sayin'. He's not called Primus for nothin'. No wonder there's a WoW episode of South Park. It's Primus guys. It always has been.

[@THEquaterx]

Hey, just wanted to point out the meaning of the names in WoW: Primus = the First One (Latin) Aman'Thul= either Safety/Peaceful/Wonder or per Google Translate: Shadow Safety/A Shadow of Safety (Arabic).

[@ogy19]

I love that theory it would be crazy if it was actually true. Sad thing is this lore if it ever happened would not be appreciated by all the meta wow players and streamers who would just make fun of it without even playing the game or getting deep into lore aside from UGHHHH HORDE BAD ALLIANCE GOOD, WARRIOR SMAAAAAASH

[@AzAlexzZ]

How many more times will the Adventurers of Azeroth be played like this until we realize that everything we did might be (or is) for the wrong party? This is baffling and it's like we are just puppets in a game THAT WE ARE UNKNOWINGLY PLAYING. And not just us, everyone else is too regardless of good or evil Arthas was used, Ner'Zhul was used, Gul'dan was used Khadgar, Sylvanas, Velen, Illidan, Malfurion, the Aspects, The Night elves, Turalyon, and a whole host of other powerful beings

[@ArlongSun]

I do like the theory that Primus is behind everything wrong in the Shadowlands. I agree with the theory because how the story always felt off and art assets did not match certain characters. Also, I never bought that Sylvannas would work with the "Jailer" as presented in game. The True Primus We never actually saw in game as a character. His model is the statue in Maldraxxus and in the art book. He still is the military tactician that wanted to expand Death's power. Working with Denathrius and the Brokers, he let the Light attack Revendreth as a pretense to expand the Shadowland reach. Zooval disagreed, and was imprisoned by the 5 for not protecting the Shadowlands. Believe he was the big bad we were supposed to defeat in Zerthi Mortis. He is "missing" because he is out doing his plans out of sight. Zooval, the Arbitor Was removed from his position for not mounting an offense after the Light attacked the Shadowlands. The Primus, Denatherius, and Brokers were in on the plan. The Winter Queen, The Archeon, and the Jailer, were convinced through manipulation. This is when Elune cuts off contact with the WQ- she knows something is wrong, but is powerless to act in the Shadowlands. Once imprisoned, Zooval was dominated and used as a pawn. We were supposed to restore him as the Arbitor. The Jailer of the Damned, aka the Rune Carver The guy from the leaked art (the Amun'thul looking guy). Since his role is to imprison the worst of the worst, he has the knowledge of rune carving to dominate minds. He is in charge of a secondary force, used to protect the Shadowlands. When Zooval is imprisoned, the Primus attends the rune carving of Zooval. Once Zooval is dominated, The Primus subdues the Jailer and locks him up in Torgasht. The Primus installs Zovaal as his general of Death Knights. This make sense that Sylvannas would want to free this guy. He knows death incursion on Azeroth is wrong. He has been slowly trying to turn the Primus' forced though those infected with his Runecarved Magic. Nerzul broke free, Arthas never fully succumb, Bolvar talks about a voice, and Sylvannas killed by Frostmourne is drawn to the Jailer. "There must always be a Lich King" is what saves Azeroth from being overrun by undead (aka the Primus forces of Plague and Lichs). The Jailer will is still stronger than The Primus. Arbitor- The gold and white robed figure we know was a construct made by the Brokers to replace Zooval after his imprisonment. A back door was put in, so the Primus could manipulate the flow of souls/anima without Archeon or Winter Queen noticing until it was too late. The Brokers, always wanting more, sent a team into the Maw to the knowledge of Runecarving. This is where Venari betrays her companions. She has put the piece together and see the betrayal plan of the Primus. The False Primus- I think the model we see in game was made at the last minute when production could not complete the story. He looks like a being from Ardenweald that they added the rune strips too. It has never made sense how his horns are not seen under the Runecarver Mask. Him being "good" while his plague forces still roam Azeroth is laughable. His "character" is a merging of plot element into one being that do not add up. It is also why we don't see him in the flashback- it because they replaced the True Primus model.

[@Iluvantir]

I think you're giving the current Blizzard writing staff way more credit than they are remotely due. They can't have thought this far ahead to make the Primus pop back up in a later expansion as the ultimate big bad... the talent that Blizzard once had in their story-telling has dribbled out of their severed dicks, so Leftist and Woke have they become. Says a LOT that it's the PLAYERS of WoW who are coming up with far better storylines than Bliz can do right now. Hell, I'd be happy if someone at Blizzard watches this and thinks: "Yes! We can FINALLY salvage our reputations and fix the god-awful mess we've made of WoW if we pretend this was our plan all along!" I'd be happy simply as the next few expansions will actually makes sense and might have some real weight in them. But with how they're currently having their characters talk and speak? DISNEY could do better, and Disney's at its best when focusing purely on films for 5 year olds. We have adult sized, 3 year old emotionally warped idiots who think their current story-telling is the bee's knees... and you think THIS was their plan all along? HA!

[@82gamerprincess31]

This will get complicated for a minute but hear me out. What if the Titans offer things to those who help them. Eonar gets her control over life and her biosphere called Azeroth. Sargaras gets his Legion army and home base but get’s sick of the titans gaslighting shit and rebels. Primus offers his knowledge and forging ability and in returns gets the realm of death as his own personal playground to fuck with people which they stole from someone else they exiled Argus the former “Titan of Death”. The Titans order things and then divvy up the goods to their loyalists. They are straight up colonizers and dictators. I 100% would not be surprised if Denathrius and his dreadlords are buddies with them as the Titans seem to love manipulating the hell out of everything. All of these “generals” and “friends” help cover up all the fucked up stuff the Titans have done and help them “order” whatever they want and return they get power. You could even argue the entire point of Zovaal the puppet of the Primus was to get Silvanas to become a general (to gain full control of the horde) in her trauma warped lust for survival and power (possibly even causing the death of vol’jin) but she was too chaotic. Anduin as a general manipulated with his free thinking and empathy to lead the army of the light and when it failed they dominated him, tried with Illidan (failed), now Turalyon sits on the throne...

[@ShadowTheHedgehogCZ]

I have two thoughts: Why did Primus dominate Zooval? Zooval allegadly committed unforgivable crimes, for which he was supposed to be tormented for eternity like any usual evil soul. He would be imprisoned by the very inescapable nature of the Maw. So why dominate him? In fact, if the torment of the Maw was the purpose behind his punishment... wouldn't domination go against this? They wanted him to experience 100% of his punishment, to make him suffer and drown in his supposed guilt. So why dominate him and take his agency and self control for him? That could reduce or nullify the severity of his punishment. Also, it's not like Primus always had Domination magic and decided to use it in this case. We are explicitly told that Primus created Domination magic for this purpose of dominating his brother. That is suspect. The other though is that if Primus was really behind this, why would he allow himself to be captured? So many things could go wrong, and he would never get free again. But I think the answer is that he never really risked anything. Zooval was supposedly dominated. So Zooval would not do anything Primus didn't want. And Primus's broken "Runecarver" state was very likely an illusion. I think he was never the Runecarver and he was never really imprisoned or dominated. He just presented this illusion to sell this story to us. Why do I think so? In the story, after you "free" the Primus, there is a gameplay problem - if the player progressed this far in the story, how will he craft his Legendaries when the Runecarver is no longer there? Well, I thought that's easy. Since the player has already progressed to this point, he has access to Korthia, and after he turns in the quest after freeing the Primus, the Primus conveniently stands in player base in Korthia. And it was the Primus who is the legendary crafter of this gear. So make Primus be the NPC you go to craft your Legendaries from now on. But no. Instead, Primus waves his hand and creates a literal illusion of his former broken self, the Runecarver... and let's it being chained in the original location in Thorgast. That's... Why? Even if you say it's purely for the gameplay reasons, because the players who never read the quest text and skip all cutscenes would never find the NPC to create Legendaries... It still means that Primus is capable of creating an illusion of himself in the Runecarver state chained in Thorgast.

[@ACarey89]

Here’s what I think they should have done with arthas in shadowlands in stead of disgracing his character and possibly could have lead to a new timeline / game based around classic. Let me know what you think! 1. The Soul’s Journey from Shadowlands: After the events in Shadowlands, the last fragment of Arthas Menethil’s soul is liberated. However, instead of moving on, this fragment gets caught in a cosmic anomaly, causing it to travel back in time. It’s drawn to a pivotal moment in Azeroth’s history - the classic era of the Wrath of the Lich King expansion. 2. The Convergence in Classic: In this timeline, players are engaged in the iconic battle against the Lich King atop Icecrown Citadel. As Classic Arthas is about to deliver the final blow to the heroes (the player characters), the soul fragment from the future arrives. This sliver of Arthas’s soul, imbued with memories and knowledge of its future self, merges with Classic Arthas. He experiences a flood of memories, witnessing his future actions, downfall, and the events unfolding in the Shadowlands. 3. A Change of Heart and a New Alliance: This revelation is overwhelming for Arthas. In a moment of clarity and remorse, he realizes the extent of the horror he’s about to unleash on the world. He removes the Helm of Domination, breaking free from its control. In a dramatic turn of events, he offers to aid the heroes. Arthas proposes a new mission: to utilize his knowledge of future events to prevent the catastrophic outcomes he’s just witnessed. The player characters, wary but recognizing the unique opportunity, form an uneasy alliance with Arthas. They embark on a quest to alter the course of history, armed with the knowledge of what might come to pass.

[@randomuserame]

Yeah... I'm thinkin' Pyro is back! 😁😁 *Ever since I learned that Primus/Runecarver is the source of the power of domination, I've always seen Zoval as more of a sr security guard than the actual Jailer. Also on the CE box that looks a lot closer to The Runecarver's face/mask than it does The Primus in wise old sage look.

[@brandonboss6868]

Oh my friend, we don't speak of shadowlands. Never....ever.....I still have PTSD from the awful story telling/writing of shadowlands.

[@ropika8154]

Dont You remember how the Light - X`era tried to force Illidan to accept the "gift" but Illidan already said he sacrificed his "FREEDOM" for power before, i think he`s is totally aware that Titans pretty much or at least Sargeras (or Amanthul but he probably dont know yet because focused on Sargeras) are the real threat to Azeroth. I also dare to risk that even though Illidan is not on Azeroth he might also feels/hear that calling from Azeroth itself. Also, Illidan had a conversation with Velen, saying to him the harsh truth what he obiously dislikes, and telling him that the "Light is holding you back, its time to forge your own path"

[@wolfsniper666]

Quick thought on the one who showed the Primus the timeways... It could be Aman'Thul, OR it could be that Infinite dragon we kill in the Shadowlands, Time Captain Hooktail. This might be the real reason why we kill them, and not because they were selling things. Think about it, WHY was an Infinite Dragon in cahoots with the Brokers..?

[@kimibimi7532]

Amen, I have yapped about the story be8ng farked sideways. In the quest where we see zoval in the maw with syls soul. And her sister comes to see her, we see zovals, coldness Anand compassion. Zoval also says Every soul has its place. That is not the sentiment of an evil entity. Mawshroom effect. I've been yelling this for ever. Just look at the fkd up choppy mis voiced lines and shadows, stitched into that botchedendof zoval cutscene end. I took so much shit for just calling out what is INTHE GAME.

[@SasukesDestiny]

I agree with this. Actually people give Shadowlands too much shit. Some argue they ruined Sylvanas and Arthas, sure, but they introduced a ton of new interesting lore and characters as well. I hope we return to the Shadowlands someday actually, to find out Pelagos mind controlled by the Primus/Aman'thul and that Denathrius has allied himself with Sargeras and is actually in opposition to the other Titans and Primus, thus pseudo-ally to us, enemy of my enemy is my friend, for now... Kind of deal Epic

[@kelborn40k84]

Isn't the purpose of Maldraxxus to protect the Shadowlands' borders? From outside threats? If you protect something like that, you keep it safe, under your control as it is living in the frame and space you're giving it. This conspiracy is the final nail in the coffin to also "order" the SL from the inside. Currently playing through Shadowlands for the first time. I'm digging the world thus far but with that theory in mind, it's ten times better, haha.

[@Zeergruush]

It never sat right with me that the "greatest tactician to ever exist" was captured by the Jailer. I kinda fault myself for being so fucking down on the story team that I just skipped over it. After how they did Sylvanas and Arthas dirty I didn't even wanna see that there could be any good storytelling in this expansion. But with all this in place, it makes perfect sense. And the plan from the perspective of the Titans is perfect. It's a fork. If we defeat Zovaal, they get to have the Shadowlands under their control and we leave triumphant thinking nothing more of it, and if we lose to Zovaal, they get Azeroth. We never win. God.damn. Thank you for this!