What If I Told You... Zovaal Is NOT The Jailer?

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[@GustavoNoronha]

The main clue that this is the true story is how much descriptions of the Primus emphasize that he would never lose a battle, that his tactics are beyond anything - and then they feed you the most absurd story about him going alone to face Zovaal like a noob and becoming a prisonar. It is clear that the only way for the Primus to be defeated is if his being defeated is what he wants and advances his goals.

[@Pyromancer]

Yes! It's absolutely ridiculous!

[@ariex0a]

@@Pyromancer I personally think this is just a bad attempt at making the Zovaal look cosmically dangerous, in an attempt to validify their poor villain. They changed the concept art because of lack of planning, because they didn't have things put together yet. We see this in Dragonflight as well. It is just poor story work. And I would prefer to forget Shadowlands alltogether, let alone give it credit for being thought out and elaborate.

[@siutsun]

⁠@@Pyromancerdo you think they will wrap this up in the last titan expansion?

[@fosterbennington6405]

@@ariex0aThanos syndrome, hate to see it.

[@mewberthildimew9037]

Or it could just be, like... bad writing. Good lore, but bad writing. Writers who don't read a lot of related litterature, who refuse to admit they're simply not a good fit for WoW's setting. I mean, the lead narrative designer is on record saying the ending to Game of Thrones was brilliant. I don't know if I'll trust the writing acumen of someone who thinks like that.

[@ClessTheAngel]

Also, if you look at Zovaal's last cutscene, you don't see a shot of the Primus' face, unlike the other Eternal Ones.

[@chance1113]

100%, blizz were going in that direction, but likely ran out of time. I don't think they intended on his face not being shown in that scene for what we eventually got, but it ended up like that due to that particular scene likely originally planned to have been part of an earlier portion of the main quest chain, giving us more context early on during the expansion, but they changed up the story late because of time constraints and re-used (re-purposed more like) it for the final scene. Another hint at that was the 2nd to last cut scene where we see the soul forge clip being rendered differently to the rest of that cut scene...yet another clip that was probably originally intended to be used must earlier on in the expansion but clipped and mushed together for the pin-ultimate scene leading into the boss fight

[@Advon]

They don't just avoid showing the Primus's face. The Primus's shadow looms over and slowly envelops Zovaal.

[@orkunakman1541]

Because the end ing cinematic was probably not supposed to be the "ending" cinematic. It was probably repurposed from an earlier cinematic, in a patch where we don't know that the primus is the prisoned dude helping us.

[@orkunakman1541]

​@@chance1113oh yes exactly.

[@RantechRadio]

Zovaal didn’t really give the vibes of somebody very smart or in control, more like a caricature puppet manipulated into being a generic bad guy for us to chase while the primus orchestrated events in the background. The dude was a tactician and archiver in the afterlife of battle. Being a master of manipulation magic, it makes far far more sense that the primus was the real architect for events that happened from lvl king to shadowlands. Zovaal even had a total tonal change as he was defeated as he went from Saturday morning cartoon villain to trying to warn us as the magic faded and he reverted to his proto form. He felt like a puppet because he was. And the primus walks off Scott free for now because we the agents of chaos have written it all off and went elsewhere thinking a job well done as we beat a big bad. The runes are all connected. All the art is usually done intentionally, so it all adds up. Question is will it come full circle or get dropped by the writers?

[@OmnusRubenn]

"The Light has struck a bargain with the enemy of all." i.e. the titans. Also, it's cool you can hear chains from the primus in Zovaal's death cinematic. I hadn't paid attention to hear that. Also: if Zereth is a name for what has been captured/ordered/claimed then Azeroth might literally mean "unclaimed" or "unclaimable" or "un-orderable"

[@So_Stupendous]

Duuuude A-zerith I thought of that too!!! Far out man. Was cool to see someone else think of that

[@khululyp]

Unclaimable... As in unobtainable wich makes Azerite... Unobtanium?

[@rebbeach3902]

Denathrius’s line in his memory feels like they tried getting zovaal in on the pan but he decided not to and in turn gets dominated

[@TonksV1]

Exactly!!

[@randomguy9236]

The Crown of Light part made me think of the N'zoth Quote: "The light has struck a bargain with the enemy of all." Most people thought it's about Lothraxion but it would be cool if it was about some bigger Light / Primus connection.

[@joshuakuhlman5603]

Well, the enemy of all is definitely death.

[@bl_ss]

You have to wonder what the hell that bargain even is now.

[@jtowensbyiii6018]

@joshuakuhlman5603 death is the friend of life, always has been, the cycle of life and death

[@calamity0.o]

All part of balance of existence. The chaos of life and peace of death. In this case, the Order of Death. Look at titans from a Dr Who brain and I see beings so intent on order meaning unchanging perfection that they have become zealots to their cause. They took the early life on azeroth and tried to shape it into unchanging forms.

[@georgealex4757]

and let's not forget the illgynoth quote "the golden one claims a vacant throne, the crown of light will bring only darkness", fits pelagos very well

[@jakubcislak9246]

And to add, Metzen confirmed that the Titan's return to Azeroth in The Last Titan, and they land in Ulduar. This just so happens to be the closest titan facility to Ice Crown where the Forge of Souls is.

[@TaliesinMyrddin]

This theory was one of my favourite articles on Wowhead of all time, even during Shadowlands. I hope it ends up panning out.

[@Varteras]

OMFG thank you. I just stumbled onto this video and I am so happy to know that I'm far from the only one who noticed so much of what you guys pointed out. I had been saying this even well before Shadowlands ended. That something didn't add up, the Primus was definitely more than what we thought, and highly unlikely for someone like him to make such a blunder as to be captured by someone he already imprisoned with his own magic. That Zovaal wasn't the real villain. At the end it made me believe even more. You guys collectively noticed even more than I did and put it all together. My hope is that by the end of The Last Titan it's revealed what the true story of Shadowlands was.

[@Finnboy-ml5jv]

Originally, he wasn’t. The early concept art hinted at Primus being the jailer.

[@xXLucromXx]

Maybe they leaked it on purpose showing ppl the real badguy

[@keithb6344]

@@xXLucromXxthey ran out of time and had to re-write a ton of crap repurposing stuff they already had.

[@xXLucromXx]

@@keithb6344 even if they rushed the story they left it open cause most ppl think we killed the jailer w/o questioning the vessel that was left behind and if the arbitor is being controlled now it would be very wierd if that goes unnoticed

[@backstabbath2690]

@@xXLucromXxI wouldn’t mind them revisiting this stuff if it’s handled better and if we don’t have to go into their realm again. Lore issues aside, I hated going into the afterlife though sire Denathrius stuff was dope

[@listenkids]

@@xXLucromXx Blizzard are absolutely not that smart

[@altervaas]

Man....This ACTUALLY made me want to reconsider lore and have some sense of hope. I may be a fool for doing so, but here's hoping.

[@Trygvar13]

The one thing that always bugged me in the cinematic was that we saw everyone EXCEPT the Primus. We heard him but we never saw him.

[@xXLucromXx]

Keep in mind, sylvanas is still there w/o knowing we didnt kill the jailer

[@snazzydrew]

Yep! I get the feelings she's still working toward the ends of freeing us from this prison.

[@WitheringZealot]

@@snazzydrew riiiiiight

[@snazzydrew]

@@WitheringZealot still salty about things?

[@H-D-D]

Denathrius is definitely working WITH primus though, therfore the titans as well. That is why he without even being dominated worked with zovaal, he knew primus was the one controlling zovaal. Zovaal most likely did not want to join the primus and denathrius, so they somehow framed him as a betrayer. That is why in the clip of the flashbacks that zovaal had, denathrius said "you could have sought another way brother. Imagine what we could have accomplished together"

[@Akinon93]

lets also not forget that for some reason, the Primus seems to be a more detailed model overall than any of the other Archons. Blizzard doesn't usually put that kind of detail work in for a one off character that we only see for 1 or 2 patches only to never see or hear from again. I think we can also possibly see Danthrius working with Zovaal as a kind of proof. I mean, Denathrius was one of the ones that helped to imprison Zovaal, so why join him afterwards? Possibly, Zovaal got to him and told him of the truth, and was able to convince him, which is why Denathrius turned into the "bad guy". I do think that the Primus was meant to be the original big bad guy, but halfway through development they realized they didn't have the time to make it work, so they half assed a new bad guy in the jailer (Zovaal). I'll be honest though the idea of the Primus being the bad guy, whether he was controlling Zovaal or not, while it doesn't save the shadowlands story, it makes it way better. It immediately fills so many plot holes that the story has, including the shitty ending of "there's worse out there". I also just like the idea of one of our "allies" being our enemy without us realizing it, it's something I don't remember us having a whole lot of in WoW for a long while now, usually it's us either eliminating our enemies, or using talk no jutsu to win them over.

[@Thromash]

The OJ art of "The Jailor" doesn't have Runes all over him, on his armor though but not his flesh. On the plus side, if there is one. Blizzard *could* later on take us back to the Shadowlands for some reason. And literally implement all of this. Continue the story of the Shadowlands by showing that the ENTIRE expansion was a part of The Primus' plan. We fell for it. At the end, Zovaal's last words could be used as a *freed* warning. Leave it for say roughly 10 years? - DF + World Soul Saga. Then go back to the Shadowlands with all of this.

[@duztysworld]

In Emerald Dream there is a quest where we seek one of the wild gods and he was us to answer riddles and one riddle is "What serves as protection and also a prison?" and the correct answer is "Stasis"

[@Lewolf2716]

There was a leak 1 or 2 years ago on 4chan from a « former dev » that was talking about what was supposed to be shadowland story line, Andiun revealed to be arthas’s son, the capital was supposed to be tazavesh, drust and bwonsamdi were a huge threat, etc…And zovaal was in fact the jailer but the jailer was a different thing, just a jailer keeping the souls of the bad guy, and the big baddies were denathrius and the primus.But the development turn into a shitshow cuz of all the problems that blizzard got into at that time. I think bellular made a video of it if you want to check I oute

[@electricmayhem8147]

yeah it's crazy how people forgot about the things that really happened.

[@Karina-108]

All those things would made sense yeah

[@TigernachVT]

Makes me wonder how much sylvanas knew of the Primus. Do we completely throw away the teaser cinematic where the Primus is behind her? Sylvanas always had an odd look on her face when she was interacting with zovaal. Like she was looking past him. We took it as her being conflicted but could there be more to it? She could have been sold with the truth about azeroth and it being a prison but the steps they the primus during SL didn't align with how she wanted to break azeroth free. Maybe?

[@MelloBear_]

It makes a ton of sense when you make a connection that order magic, light magic and domination magic are synonymous in the sense they are built around control and that the titans are trying to control everything. Makes total sense that the primus in league with amenthul did this to try to easily spread their influence across the universe

[@yucku]

i would actually accept the primus being behind everything, and not zovaal. just the way the primus was set up waaaay better than zovaal at being a mastermind planner.

[@Monkey___]

This is so gigabrain Zovaal literally turns into a puppet at the end.

[@Engendroist]

Yeah, I've always been saying that the Primus should be the Jailer, instead of Zovaal (as originally intended before all the shitstorm on shadowlands). If Blizz could retcon that and pull a huge cliffhanger doing that, It would be awesome and cool, being this massive 10.000yo master tactician.

[@ProtoGJB]

Good to have you back Pyro, Good to have you back in the warcraft lore speculation that often turns out to be right on the nail.

[@afishynado6812]

What will really bake your noodle is when you look back at the plot of Wrath of the Lich King and how we were working for the lich king all the way through the questing zones.

[@DiscordianKitty]

Wow what an interesting theory. I wonder who came up with it.

[@StefSanjatiOfficial]

I wanted to highlight this too! @Pyromancer I'm not sure if your source told you but Discordian Kitty here wrote this entire theory on WoWhead quite a while ago, before the end of Shadowlands. Might be a good idea to chat with her about lore too!

[@derekfrost7751]

you can even see in the original video of the jailer and sylvanas that the jailer has white hair and his eyebrows, its clearly the primus model (the video that came out with the first shadowlands cinematic)

[@hallo-mt5tx]

my ideal scenario is that the shadowlands, the eternal ones and zereth mortis are made/ordered by the titans, who are called the first ones in the shadowlands thats why the eternal ones are these weird robots, similar to titan keepers through whatever means, zovaal realized or was made to turn against the order of the titans, similar to sargeras the shadowlands are like a microcosm of what the titans did to the cosmos as a whole

[@Ukobachful]

I'm reminded that The Primus is literally listed as a Titan within the TITANS hearthstone set. Sure, it's not truly canon to wow and might just be for the use of mechanics, but it does give thought atop all the rest of these ideas.

[@rkramer5629]

There was so much lore potential in SL. What blizz crapped out was the greatest sin of all (ignoring the IRL shit of course)

[@KiraNightV]

I wonder if Zovaal collecting the Covenant Sigils is a reflection of the Dragonflights' Aspect powers. 5 Sigils, 5 Aspects, 5 Keys. This also makes me consider that what if Xal wants to make a new Dragon Aspect using Galakrond's essence. Like how the Primus made a new Arbiter Sigil so that we can follow Zovaal.

[@lboutside]

I know hearthstone isn't canon but it's interesting that blizz made The Primus as a "titan" card for the DK class. While every other class (except Paladin who got a completely new titan called Amitus as their titan class card) had an existing Titan. If they create a brand new titan for Paladin why wouldn't they do the same for DK? Maybe because you are on the right lines, Primus works for the pantheon

[@Velshin1986]

What still confuses me when we did Revendreth questline in Shadowlands, it was clear that Denathrius was with Zovaal but then what we saw in the flashback during the final moments of Zovaal it was indicated as if Denathrius was against him there. Did he change his mind over the years or did he got dominated?

[@Karina-108]

Damn thats a really good point, i never thought of this !

[@derekrichardson7853]

Primus sitting down there “chained up “ for the same reason Jigsaw was laying there pretending to be dead in SAW. Want to have front row seats to watch what you set in motion.

[@Volithras]

Look at the 10.2 Demon Hunter tier set and tell me there isn't a Sargaras/Illidan/Domination hint there

[@TheGrey08]

Hell yeah dude. Love this shit! It's so huge having you back in the lore.

[@ezCat1337]

I'm so happy you are back with your WoW speculation. With your idea abou the Primus, you even rescued a lot of SL lore for me, something i thought impossible to do. Thank you for sharing for your brilliance and passion again!

[@ivanthespacebiker5390]

True man, I hate the lore of shadowlands a lot less now, just because this dude MIGHT be right.

[@archmagealodi]

The delay in releasing Sylvanas book and how story was after 9.0 supports the theory that they changed up many things last minute, makes sense.

[@archmagealodi]

Zovaal going from being The Arbiter to Jailer never made sense either.

[@gabrielseibeldev]

Dude you deserve to reach more people, if everyone had this info the game would be more respected

[@snazzydrew]

You know what... That's pretty on point because people like Pyro are why I even decided to give WoW a real chance. Only played for a second when I was a kid in BC... But being such a fantasy lore nerd, Pyro's videos really made me understand the appeal of the game.

[@Freyfry]

NO.

[@Yroxcruk666]

This is kinda of a prime example of how wow has been treated through its entirety. They have some crazy wild ideas for world building and are incredible at developing backstories, but god DAMN they are bad at actually delivering with their stories and are incredibly bad at writing an actual story.

[@user-fv7jd4xj5n]

IMO that was the original idea for the expansion that was scrapped. Just like sargeras is shown to have jailer style armor in the 7.3 cinematic. The sword was probably gonna be used somehow.

[@beeman4266]

Or there's the whole Sargeras was the good guy and wasn't trying to kill azeroth. He was trying to free her from prison when he stabbed his sword into it. I'm partial to that one. Mainly because we need an Illidan/Sargeras team up. The ultimate redemption arc. The game is always better when Illidan is around.

[@terronikus2995]

So interesting thing...in the Hearthstone Expansion about titans...the Death Knight is the Primus. although hearthstone is not cannon it did reveal what N'zoth looked like before we ever saw him in game.

[@Percival-ig2ye]

i can't believe im geeking out over shadowlands lore right now. this is so sick

[@samara_1990]

I love you, hun! Keep up the awesome work and community growth!

[@cuzy215]

Yo this blew my mind for real!

[@ReyReyzzz]

I always had a feeling that there was WAY more to the primus that seems to be hidden or muted, but i could never put my finger on it until i watched this. He’s just way too smart to get captured by his own magic, especially since he’s the ‘tactician’ of the pantheon of death. That never made sense to me

[@H-D-D]

What is up with the hole in zovaal's chest though? If you notice in the clip of his flashbacks he does not have it before he was punished and marked with domination runes, but then after he has the hole in his chest for that orb that the arbitor uses? Did the primus add that as well so he could open the way for him to get into the sepulcher?

[@Foxtrot-jr5qu]

During Legion, the Death Knights have hidden dialogues around the Broken Shores if they wear the Blades of the Fallen King and they can see and hear the Lich King saying in one of the zones - "You believe that you are in control, that your will is your own... Yet you do as He commands. You exist by His whim alone. You imagine yourself to be free, but you will always be His instrument."

[@QueenOfKoopas]

I'm new to your vids and just mind blown by all of this. Amazing stuff! A lot of Shadowlands I never put much thought or notice into because of the rough storytelling. This however is truly gigabrain. A not obvious cliche/twist villain is a welcome one.

[@c-eagle]

I'm thankful that you are back - bind-blowing discoveries & theory! Maybe eye-glow-colors have a certain meaning after all, depending on color - bright-blueish glowing eyes might secretly imply mind-control. The eye glow just before Zovaals deactivation completed became equal to the eye glow of the Primus. Other colors might imply other specific influences/powers. Aman'thul yellow, Denathrius red, etc - the Archon seems to even have the same color as Zovaal did. Maybe she is being mind-controlled as well? As a fallback-option?

[@roberti1290]

"A cosmos divided will not succeed" this is now a hint that makes a lot more sense now that we hear it.

[@gregjennings91]

They even had a tag line on their webpage saying "unravel the conspiracy of the shadowlands". We never even saw it coming!

[@Cyboogie.the.Cyborg]

Imagine Sargeras and Illidan team up because he explains everything to Illy, omg.

[@vickimaroney800]

I really want this to happen!

[@Imorteus]

this could make what illidan is to demons, what sylvanas becomes to domination magic and "redeem" her???

[@martinkjr3278]

I have expected the Primus to be "The Jailer" all the time and it's not even my original idea either. The part with the Light is news to me though and it makes perfect sense.

[@EloquentTroll]

Pyromancer coming back to the game feels so good. My tinfoil hat is so comfy to put back on.

[@souflikar6702]

This blew my mind. Such a good video!!

[@TheBroThatSurvived]

Wow... That revelation, and the implications therein, is wild. I'll see this exact theory on Taliesin and Bellular next week, I'm sure of it.

[@shilohlee4332]

Not sure if I'm just forgetting if you mentioned it, but Domination seems like something the Titans would love to have access to, and would be willing to trade considerable services for.

[@Belahl-fo4dh]

The Primus being the true villain theory has been around for a couple of years now. I think there was a big story about it on wowhead. I think it’s a better story than what we got and does answer a lot of questions and leaves the door open for a really good future villain in the Primus.

[@FyreFry]

There's an article on WoWhead that covers this same speculation and theory that further supports your theory in the same way. I'm glad to see you doing your Tin Foil discussions again. Welcome back, Pyromancer. :D

[@catterin7815]

I just wanted to say, Thanks for the Great video! I really missed this.

[@Jriedem]

Didn't the Titans prove to be a threat to Azeroth back in WotLK when Algalon threatened to re-originate the world during Ulduar? The Old God's corruption was his excuse and defeating Algalon was enough to change his mind, but still... If the Titans can just decide on a whim to wipe everyone out, that makes them a threat. And that should have been apparent since WotLK, at least. Right?

[@jtowensbyiii6018]

They also tried to wipe the planet again during bfa, but people are dumb and forget massive facts about the lore, they forget Arthas even ADMITS he is being controlled and people pretend it didn't happen for some reason 😂

[@Jriedem]

@@jtowensbyiii6018 Was that during the Uldir raid?

[@Menion98]

During the Rygelon fight he yells “through Death wil come Order” and “you fail to see what is coming”. How you so good?

[@Logikalx01]

If I saw a future where all my plans were shattered by neckbeards lampooning as champions of Azeroth over and over again, I would also trick the would be heroes into working for me

[@ulasseker1]

at Zovaal's last cutscene, when they captured him, there are no runes on him. So maybe Primus actually killed Zovaal and put a puppet that he made into the Maw.

[@fosterbennington6405]

I think the puppet body is just an arbiter thing

[@silentstephi]

In regards to the question of pumping power into the maw- the prior power structure divided power evenly. Break that to super charge one area, boom, all the power you need to do whatever you need.

[@azazel_jv1636]

@pyromancer “The golden one (Pelagos the new arbiter) claims a vacant throne. The crown of light (crown of wills) will bring only darkness”

[@AusRyno]

Isnt Maldraxus is alive and its the home of the Primus, right?..... could it be a world soul like entity, thats been experimented on in the shadowlands?

[@mactassio21]

I think this wasn't what blizzard had in mind but they will watch this and think "hey that's not a bad idea, maybe we should do this"

[@Humanrunna]

What i notice and no one has mentioned this. But Arthas and Zovaal (when defeated) have that moment of clarity as the domination magic breaks before actually dying. Also given that he is a just a construct he has potential to be revived and tell the real story of what happened.

[@vickimaroney800]

I don't know if anyone's said this already, but the name "Primus" contains a clue as the Latin for "first". Prime Mover = the one who puts a plan into action although not necessarily in overall charge.

[@adremal1840]

Titans used Primus's chains of domination magic to imprison Old Gods , Titans involuntary created the Void by creating the "false" Light (artificial one , the one they can control)

[@timurartas]

immagine. the words " A Cosmos divided will not survive" zooval means, that a cosmos where the Order is pressed, where there is only order or Death. means that the cosmos like that will never survive. I mean.. ithought abt that somewhat in beginning of shadowlands.. where i asked myself, why they changed the jailers concept art, since clearly The Primus was the jailer all along.... he burned the runes of domination into zoovals flesh to make him obey... god this gives me goosebumbs

[@Semmostaa]

Why the hell doesnt blizzard hire pyro to do some lore to this game? His analyzes and theories are so good

[@xSaDii]

This is not a new theory, it has been discussed since the end of shadowlands.

[@beeman4266]

@xSaDii I'm not massively into wow lore, mainly just raiding and m+. But I remember watching pyros theories on lore back in Legion (ohhh legion, better times) and I'm curious if any of it came true. Wasn't sure if you'd know.

[@Semmostaa]

@@xSaDii Yea, went to look youtube with this topic and saw many who said the same that Primus is true jailer. But they didnt mention the link primus have to titans

[@bobjones4469]

Bro, just do a Google search, people have been speculating about stuff like this for YEARS. Saying this now after the expansion has already been LONG over is hardly impressive.

[@Semmostaa]

@@bobjones4469 Like i said, i went search this topic and saw many speculating aboit this, BUT i said aswell that no one has said that primus may have connection to amanthul

[@DrBannanachips]

What if the ice crown citadel is a helm of domination being used on azeroth itself

[@Camps621]

I really wish that this was the actual story. Unfortunately, I don’t think blizz was able to put all that together.

[@legendofmirr]

Reminds me of Saw 1 when the guy from the middle of the room just gets up at the end and was there alive the whole time.

[@snazzydrew]

Honestly, The Primus being the truth Jailer felt so INSANELY obvious... Then Shadowlands really dropped the ball on delivering one of the only good sets up they had for the expansion's original characters...... Sadly, things went differently in game. But Primus being the true Jailor is my main theory as well.

[@derekrichardson7853]

The Primus being the actual bad guy makes sense for why the Lich King’s forces resemble the military forces of Maldraxxus.

[@ka0snz85]

I tried to tell you about this in youtube comments years ago... oh well glad you are on board now. Also notice in the cinematic you watch at 26 mins of Zovaal dying. That they show every other Eternal one... but when it's the Primus turn to speak they show only Zovaal... another clue that the Primus was infact dominating Zovaal.

[@mariobrito427]

Man i love this theory! I really think it explains everything. Frankly the only flaw I can see is that it doesn't go far enough... Let me ask you: how many members are there on the Prototype Pantheon? Four. Not five. Zovaal is missing. So here's how i would amend this theory: At some point in the past, real Zovaal rebelled against the Primus. All the machinations of the Primus would be known if Zovaal was allowed to speak... so, the Primus imprisoned real Zovaal (somewhere, maybe even in Thorgast). At the same time the Primus got Prototype Zovaal, dominated it (maybe even gave it false memories that would serve his narrative better) and made it stand in for the real Zovaal in the Maw. So the real Zovaal i don't think we've even seen. Something to think about... 2 cents and all that :) Peace!

[@michaelnavarro309]

I believe I remember a warbringer cinematic of Guldan talking to Sargeras and Sargeras saying “everyone has a master, even me”. Maybe he was talking about Aman’thul

[@Boss-ot1iy]

That was Kil'Jaeden that said that. Not Sargeras

[@michaelnavarro309]

@@Boss-ot1iy Ohhh, my bad! Thank you for correct me

[@ez6791]

This is mind-blowing. People need to know about this

[@reinoldi1097]

anyone remember SAW 1 when in the end one of the dead victims gets up and walked out (the actual badguy)? thats the primus xD its the same xD

[@matithesnappy2787]

I thought when The Last Titan (3rd part of the Worldsoul Saga) was revealed I thought we might see an event where all the Titans except Azeroth are defeated, but now I think we might have to fight them to keep them from dominating Azeroth.

[@kylehofmeister6906]

In those flashback scenes, the primus is the only eternal you don't see either.

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

Worth noting that the Shadowlands and Emerald Dream are supposed to parallel one another, so the Titans using one to run a test to see if it can be done with the other would make sense.

[@ronie619linas]

Pyro is back in the f*cking kitchen, running the stove on all 4 and am all here for it.

[@hamednabati]

1.Remember the titan artifact that Deathwing was using to control those drakthyr. Primus and Amanthul work together and shared the time and domination knowledge. 2. It could be that Sargeras broke free from the domination just like Anduin did and that's why he was being vengeful on them. 3. Remember the final cinematic of Zuval. He was already imprisoned without having the runes. So the reason for inventing domination was not imprisoning Zuval just like it was said in the game. 4. Domination magic by itself is evil. The one who invents it is definitely having evil intentions.

[@Alexiully]

There is an item that drops from Argus back in Legion's Antorus raid, called the Aman'Thul's Vision. It is the legendary linked to the "Path of the Titans'. The story is set up since Legion to go into this direction and Dragonflight was in the strings as well, with the former tower of the aspects in Northrend and the cracked road in Dragonblight named the same. This is the Light's plan of taking over Azeroth within their ranks of 'order'. I am pretty sure that either in the War Within we will pave the way of turning Sargeras good and help out with the Void or the Last One expansion, when we will face the Primus and Amanthul, with the conflict resetting reality and we become the 'First Ones'. This is a stretch but I consider it the following way, the First Ones created light and dark as a simulation to let it play out, as we've seen in Zereth Mortis they have a scientist mindset of creating and allowing things to run to X outcome in order for their creations to evolve. Once we are dealt with Legion's story remains and the voidlords, pretty much everything is cleared to reach the closing chapter of the given reality in WoW. We will face the Primus and Amanthul in the Last Titan expansion, and the conflict will bring a reset to WoW's reality which could have happened in the Shadowlands. Once that is done we will basically be the reincarnation of the First Ones, as the observers of their own experiment. I think that would be a fitting end to the game's lore. If this goes on and becomes a thing, Shadowlands will seem as a Wotlk 2.0 story wise looked back at it.

[@Boss-ot1iy]

The titans are the first ones

[@Alexiully]

@@Boss-ot1iy No, there is a reason they are named vaguely as the First Ones. The Titans are on equal par with the Voidlords, entities that rule over the Light, the same way the others rule over darkness. The First Ones ( and this is a stretch ) created the medium and the life energy that will bring about light vs dark entities, meaning they indirectly created the Titans and Voids. If the Titans were the first ones, they wouldn't have been named as such or even relevant to the story. with the titans ending whatever troubles the Voids were creating in a fingers snap.

[@Boss-ot1iy]

@@Alexiully Doesn't work like that since we saw the Jailer capable of using an actual titan to be able to remake all of reality using her power. You're assuming (if they are different than titans) they could just snap their fingers and end any threat. Thay isn't the case since you don't know anything about them

[@timar6868]

This actually makes a lot of sense especially if you think that the Primus might’ve been controlling of all the moment he put those runes on him, he could’ve actually framed him from the beginning making the others think he did something bad so that he could send them to the maw because he needed a place to put his puppet where his puppet could enact those years of plans that were really his own but he needed to do it somewhere where no one else could watch and see. So he frames zovaal so that he can put the domination runes on him, then he sent them to the maw so that he can use him in secret because no one can go there so I believe the Primus is the one who made all those plans the jailer said he had for Arthas for the Legion all of it I believe it was the Primus because he’s that smart and if it all makes sense.

[@timar6868]

It’s just a blizzard uses this type of storytelling for the future when they wanna go back to the Shadowlands and explain things

[@leinadhtims]

Also! Remember the big red evil soul that takes out the Arbiter in the beginning of Shadowlands? Wasn't that Argus' soul? From when we killed him? Where we died at first, but the Titans went "Naaaa," brought us back to life to kill him because they wanted his soul to go to our afterlife? Yeah....

[@rhysjones7856]

Ever since I saw the concept of the jailor, that’s gotta be the Primus, listen to what Zovaal says when he goes offline

[@dennis20591]

this made so sad just to think of how good shadowlands could be

[@Qprah]

Ok so within this theory where do the Dreadlords and Denathrius stand? In the final cutscene flashback to Zovaal first getting imprisoned; Denathrius says "You could have sought another way, brother. Imagine what we could have accomplished, together". Throughout the SL leveling and first raid tier Denathrius is shown to have been allied with Zovaal even after pretending to side against him when they first imprisoned him. Denathrius is the one who allows The Maw to expand far enough out to put it in range of Korthia, which is where the Primus had hidden his final memory and his sigil. Korthia was also where Fatescribe Roh-Kalo was hiding. Roh-Kalo was somehow involved in Zovaal being able to access Zereth Mortis if im not mistaken. The Dreadlords continue to serve Denathrius, including rescuing him from the Maw Walkers and their allies and serving Zovaal in Zereth Mortis/Sepulcher. They tricked the Legion to give them access to Argus' World Soul which they used to help Zovaal. Were they all under the Primus' influence as well? Or were they just unwitting chess pieces in his game? What about all of Zovaal's other allies? The Forsworn? The House of Rituals? The Drust? Mueh'zala? Helya? Sylvanas? What about the Brokers? How much did they know? What of Venari? Is the Primus on the same level as Aman'thul? Or is he also being used? Did Iridikron find out about all of this? Xal'atath? What about the Old Gods and the Black Empire? Elune? Why would Light be helping Order take over everything? Zovaal mentions the enemy of all and needing to stand united. Is that not what Order would be doing? Is Zovaal even really misalligned with the Primus? Or was he just a puppet that the Primus was willing to throw away? Or is Order itself the enemy of all? Why did the Pantheon allow themselves to be killed, captured and tortured by Sargaras? Was Sargaras not in favor of this plan either? What is Life's involvement? Elune? The Winter Queen? Eonar? Surely they aren't helping Order do this since Order has been shown to be rather hostile to Life and enforcing itself onto it. Was Zereth Mortis apart of the Ordered Death design? Did the Titans create it and the other Zereths in a distinctly different style to their regular Titan designs to cover up their own involvement? Are the First Ones just the Titans hiding their own secrets? This theory would answer a lot of questions but would also pose exponentially more questions itself.

[@ASIRA89]

Yes, the story of Shadowlands would make much more sense if the Primus was the one behind it. Even the lackluster portrail of Zovaal would make more sense if he himself turned out to be a puppet. I said it back then and I say it again. "You don't put much time and effort into a villain if you KNOW he is only a tool, that was never meant to become a big threat/thing in the story." Now the question is, did Blizzard drop the ball on this story, or will the Primus reveal himself at some point? I fear that we will never see this story in WoW. Even the end cinematic hinted at the Primus having a secret. We see all the eternal ones as they speak to Zovaal, but when the Primus speaks, we only see his shadow...

[@snazzydrew]

Also when the Primus speakers, it's happening in a different location at a different time. Before the runes were etched into Zovaal.

[@Dreanos]

So basically Zovaal was the Janitor all along, no wonder why the Shadowlands was a mess, he was bad at his job.

[@TheRedsquill]

Domination runes can also be found in almost every titan installation in WoW, the one that comes to mind is near the Sha of Pride is SoO

[@Deschained19]

This would make for a great shadowlands “redemption” expansion of sorts, or maybe a patch or two.