Queen Charlotte & The Bridgerton Problem

[@brees3]

Bridgerton is peak frivolity. It doesn’t attempt realism in any other way, from the costumes to the dialogue to the music, so why it’s trying to clumsily make racial commentary is beyond me. I really don’t think a single person would question why they casted diversely so it’s weird they’re trying to explain it in-universe. Just let the pretty people eat their cake!

[@Tsuruchi_420]

I mean, yes, people would question it, but who gives a shit

[@trashcastle2503]

exactly, I think it would have been better for them to just do colorblind casting with no explanation. they don't need to invent an excuse to cast nonwhite characters, just cast them! I thought that's the direction they were going at first and I didn't question it. I just thought of it as an alternate universe where racism wasn't a thing

[@sarahwatts7152]

Plus it makes it weird to be so loud about racism...when the Colin season is going to have two white leads

[@girlgreenivy]

People did question it from the very first season. Some were even upset about it.

[@brees3]

@@girlgreenivy I guess I should clarify that no one with common sense would question it. The series from its very first trailer made it super well known they weren't aiming to be historically accurate.

[@kennedydudley6386]

Truly, if they wanted to be color blind with casting (which I have no qualms about and actually like) be color blind about everything, then there’s no ~realism~ needed at all. Especially when no other parts of the show have to deal with that. No one’s explaining why we’re listening to instrumental covers of Taylor Swift so why do you *need* to justify black and brown peoples existence 😭

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

Exactly!! And the costumes are honestly way off from any sort of historical fact and borderline fantastical themselves. But we need to explain the Queen's race? Why?

[@hopefederico8678]

HAHAHA THE WAY YOU PUT IT

[@ncz7]

True

[@MyHeartForBio]

Maybe Americans should just stop making shows about European history, cause this BS is offensive... just like Emily in Paris

[@novletmills9244]

And the world would be a better place if Black stories weren’t whitewashed.

[@emmabrister747]

I also think that it is important to recognize that love does not conquer all. Like just because a white person falls in love with a person of colour doesn’t make them magically no longer racist. Addressing your own personal biases requires additional work, time and commitment, not just love.

[@stepahead5944]

Yes, yes, and yes.

[@tamarleahh.2150]

I'm curious, how do you define racism in this example? An outward racist or someone with internalized racism?

[@trashcastle2503]

right. straight men fall in love with women all the time and misogyny still exists... what's even more unrealistic is that it somehow made everyone in-universe (many of whom were still very classist and sexist) stop being racist, not just King George.

[@stevenw4566]

Yes! People, especially white people, need to realize that dating and love outside your race is not inherently anti-racist. And it's important to realize that some people fall in love not despite their racism, but because of it.

[@mystii8134]

Yep, my dad literally married a latino woman and he's still racist he's always calling south-america and her home trash.

[@chantellwarren3581]

Bridgerton is a great example that many Hollywood writing rooms just don’t have the depth to talk about these issues. They can’t just include POC people without needing to explain and bend over backwards why they exist and it always falls flat. Like how Kate was from India. India. The same India that England raid for resources and bled dry. They don’t really acknowledge any of that in the second season, considering that the show wants be taken seriously. The atrocities that happened during that time are totally ignored because it doesn’t fit the romance plot. It’s so odd because Bridgerton would still work absolutely well if they didn’t try to talk about things that they do not give proper care. Just have people of color existing in these stories. You don’t need to explain their existence. That’s why 1997 Cinderella with Brandy is so beloved. Just a mix of people while keeping true to the original story.

[@CT_Phipps]

I mean I'd argue it wouldn't remotely work well because it's hard to focus on who is marrying who when massive atrocities are being done. Sort of like how the Lone Ranger was an absolutely crap Disney movie because it acknowledged the horrific side of the Old West while still trying to be a "Oh look at the funny horse."

[@chantellwarren3581]

@@CT_Phipps that’s why I said that they should just have POC exist and not have to over explain. Just use the aesthetics and not over explain. Just create a simple love story that people can enjoy.

[@Courtneybenson907]

Another foreign Queen hated by the people was Eleanor of Provence (Aliénor de Provence), the Queen of Henry III of England. She was attacked by people while on the Thames, they threw stones and rotten eggs at her.

[@wildcatste]

This! They told us that a black woman and a white man had a natural born Asian son and we said “awesome!” We’ll go with the fantasy when you just do it. don’t make it awkward

[@zaria6681]

"people of color people"

[@silvercheetah92]

The Bridgerton books are just regular bodice rippers they aren't particularly deep and the show keeps trying to make these silly stories deeper than they actually are. There are no POC in the books, there is only one LGBT character in book 8 and while he is a good guy he is super minor, and Book 5 has a character with depression that I thought was poorly written.

[@brees3]

I think this is where the video makes a really strong point. They wanted a diverse historical romance series. Why didn't they just adapt a better book series with source material they can actually lean on? Beverly Jenkins has been here the whole time.

[@steff6146]

@@brees3QUEEN BEVERLY JENKINS I HOPE SHE GETS HER FLOWERS!!!!

[@silvercheetah92]

@@brees3 Plus the royal family aren’t even characters in the books so yeah

[@TheSongwritingCat]

From what I've seen, this is an issue with Shonda shows. So now the Julia Quinn issues are being compounded with Shonda issues to make a mess.

[@khfan4life365]

@@TheSongwritingCatalso, Shonda Rhimes is a known diva. She is known to kill off characters if their actors disagree with her. For example, Patrick Dempsey (Derek Shepherd) voiced his discontent of his character cheating on Meredith. Instead of considering and addressing his concerns, Shonda preemptively ended Patrick’s contract and killed the character off. I have suspicions that if Julia Quinn voiced any objections, she would have been shut down as “racist”.

[@putts6225]

It’s not the worst thing by a long shot, but the way Lady Danbury’s line is written drives me nuts. She says “we were two separate societies divided by colour until a king fell in love with one of us”. When I first heard that, I thought that they had made up a black kingdom for the queen to be from. Like Germany was just black in this version of history and there was some Romeo and Juliet type feud going on. This would have been dumb but less dumb. The thing is SLAVERY ISNT TWO SOCIETIES DIVIDED BY COLOUR. It’s one society where white people are taking black people from their pre-existing society and forcing them into a sub-human caste of the white society. What’s the second society here? Like the way the line is constructed takes the actual blame off the white people and creates this “divide”, which I have always thought seems a bit both sides are wrong.

[@ameliaboivin6267]

Bridgerton (the show) even has introduced slavery into its universe which makes it even more problematic to the way it interacts with race. There is a scene where Lord Featherington slights Will Mondrich, He mentions Will's father as someone who fleed the colonies after the Dunmore rebellion---so here they make a character's father former slave in a very well-known slave rebellion where the British army freed slaves in exchange for fighting for the crown in the revolutionary war. I agree completely, its an impossible task for the show to maintain an idea of a color blind society but also canonically showing that it got there in one generation.

[@FoxxyFatima]

So, the TAST still exist, but they somehow have a Black/bi-racial woman a Queen of a European country??? Especially one that engaged in the TAST??? Make it make sense.

[@brees3]

Genuinely, I just wish they built a fantasy utopia where these nobles aren't actually in charge of anything and no wars have ever happened. The value of the show is how indulgent and beautiful it is. I wish they'd just let the hot people go to balls and make out in hedge mazes and leave the historical accuracy to people qualified to actually tackle it.

[@katgreer6113]

They felt pressure to do this because of the age and time they are in now. If beidgerton came out in 2012, they wouldn't feel the need to do this. But now with ppl getting canceled for not talking about slavery or smth they obviously thought the audience would better receive their low quality effort to squeeze some race talk in there.

[@DariaElGrellPozina]

@@katgreer6113 nah, you're scewing the narrative. People don't get canceled for just not talking about slavery, that would be ludicrous. People get cancelled for pretending it didn't happen, didn't affect people for generations or saying that children don't need to learn "all that negative stuff, that's anti-patriotic". Nobody needed that conversation here. You either tackle the racial issues explicitly or do the colourblind thing. Bridgerton wanted to have its cake and eat it too and instead just faceplanted into a pile of shit. Slavery didn't have to exist for Featherington to be an asshole to Mondrich- he's already a rich asshole and up until "we were different societies" monologue I just assumed there was no racial subtext. People can hate other people without the history of colonization and human rights violation, it could've been "yeah, we travel and trade with African countries, Asian countries and American countries just as we travel and trade with any other European country".

[@grandempressvicky6387]

​@@katgreer6113 Shut up. Please be quiet. This was 100% a choice purely made by the writers. No one asked them to talk about race. There are lots of media where mentioning the slave trade would be relevant i.e. The Handmaid's Tale. And yet, they don't say shit about race. So this was just the writer's fault.

[@azteclady]

I'm so glad you mentioned Julia Quinn's money grab. For decades she said, with her whole chest, that she 'couldn't' include Black characters (or Brown) in her books, because it wouldn't be 'historically accurate' to give Black people happy endings in historical settings. As recently as 2018, she was saying this in public, in panels with Black authors of Black historical romance. And now, she's making bank over Bridgerton and selling it as 'oh, but it's fantasy'. (edited out all the cursing going on in my head over this)

[@milolavander3563]

Wow. I had no idea she did that, that’s messed up.

[@eunbis_rubi]

Omg that’s messed up, ‘specially the part about her saying this at panels too.

[@gems3604]

Yeah, she's shameless. I can't wait for her comeuppance. For her it's all about the bag. Integrity be d*mned. I am thinking of her recent (2024) Instagram post where she urges everyone who is angry about the genderswapping of a major character to trust the showrunners. A lot of the people who are angry are/were her devoted fans. She threw them under the bus!

[@annaalessandrini9965]

You know, Bridgerton is more a “historic fantasy” in my opinion, it’s pure aesthetic/eye pleasing escapism , the colors, the costuming etc.. nothing is accurate. So if they’ve gone fully into this surreal/history fantasy world with the color-blind casting maybe could have been more ok. It’s the little tokenism of REALLY superficial and wishywashy addressing of race that doesn’t make sense in the contest. I don’t know, honestly feels really fake

[@annaalessandrini9965]

Exactly, I agree with what your saying in 7:45

[@Uhohlisa]

Yeah exactly. It's like, it's all fantasy, so a "colorblind" interpretation would have worked just as a fantasy, like "look at how we would have outshone them all at their own aesthetic/world/etc if we had been given the chance," but them talking about race in the show just makes it weird. Like, they treat race like it's 2023, whereas gender is treated historically accurate. It's so fucking strange!!

[@annaalessandrini9965]

@@Uhohlisa you put it so well, thank you. English isn’t my first language and I’m pretty much self-tought so I’m always afraid of misexplaining myself or what i’m trying to say

[@annaalessandrini9965]

Colorblindess can be a little step, at least POC can take a little more jobs in a very very white industry, and little kid can see someone like them, but it’s not enough, at all, they don’t see their cultures anyway. It is bare minum and kinda lazy in my opinion. And honestly sometimes don’t seems genuine, seems pretty much “model minority”/ you can be POC but only if your attitude/food/culture is flat out and whitewashed

[@annaalessandrini9965]

What do you think??

[@ddahlia3607]

i was so annoyed with the queen charlotte plot in bridgerton season 1. it was like i couldnt enjoy an escapist series where there were just black characters, they just Had to throw in that slavery existed but also they dont want to deal with actually unpacking that? its the worst of both and it made me so annoyed i quit the show

[@katgreer6113]

We want shoes where POC don't have to face their past. People come to TV to escape. Not to discuss what they face in the real world. We want our POC to just be happy on TV.

[@samanthasmith61]

@@katgreer6113 you mean you want your poc ( just black) to be Whitewashed and pretend to be their colonizer and act like white people in white culture?🙄 wow martin Luther King would be absolutely speechless if he was alive and he thought his people can't sink lower

[@samanthasmith61]

@@katgreer6113 be white = be happy 💀 what? this is idiotic, if you want to be happy then create something else instead of constantly trying to reach into the most racist culture and time.... 💀

[@ddahlia3607]

@@katgreer6113 i honesly don't mind media that deal with issues of poc if its written in a smart and interesting way that doesnt pidgeon hole us into suffering. one of my favorite authors is nk jeminin and she frequently writes about issues like racism and imperlism but its done from a well written black persepctive that showcases joy and hope. the writing of bridgerton is no where as good to have anything like that though :/

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

@@katgreer6113 I think there are shows that SHOULD deal with the facts of slavery and racism. I just think Bridgerton isn't that show. If you are gonna race bend the book, just do it with pride and enjoy that for what it is. Bridgerton was just a sexy period romp and doing a good job of being that, until the moment they introduced "the royal marriage that cured racism".

[@LaurasBookBlog]

JJ McAvoy, Erica Ridley, Alyssa Cole, Ms. Beverly Jenkins herself - we HAVE Black historical romance authors! We do not need to give Julia Quinn so much space!

[@magenta9757]

I'm not generally a romance reader, do you have any recos from these authors? :)

[@grimmandtonics]

@Magenta An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole was recommended to me recently and I loved it and I think it's a great starting point for her series if you're interested.

[@khfan4life365]

Especially since there were no POCs in the Bridgerton books. If Netflix wanted a diverse historical romance, they should have adapted the authors you mentioned rather than creating diversity where there was none in Bridgerton. Plus, the royal family wasn’t even featured in the books. Mentioned, yes. Shown, no.

[@_Fountain]

​@Magenta I thoroughly enjoyed 'Wild Sweet Love', 'Forbidden' and 'Before the Dawn' by Beverly Jenkins

[@TerryWalkerFrissonArt]

"We do not need to give Julia Quinn so much space!" So why did Shonda Rhimes do so? Why didn't she give these Black authors a slice of the enormous Netflix money pie?

[@PokhrajRoy.]

One of the biggest gripes about BRITISH media I have is that there’s this expectation for British Asian actors to sound like they came off the boat. This is for all minority representations in global media.

[@guacamojo]

now that you mention it, the only asians i can think of w uk accents are cho chang and caitlyn kirramman (i know that arcane is usa/french media and not british media). thats wild tho

[@EricChoiniere]

​@@guacamojo and they're played by the same actress!

[@mggardiner4066]

@@guacamojo Jessie Mei Li as well. But speaking of, that was another Netflix show that brought in racism idea along with the diverse casting but didn’t want to properly deal with racism as a systemic issue (or really exploring other cultures)

[@LILFOC1]

Brigerton is an American show. There are plenty of UK shows (those which do have POC) where the PoC definitely don't sound like they're fresh off the boat

[@Itcouldbebunnies]

Blinded by the Light, Yesterday, David Copperfield, and The Green Knight are the first movies that come to my mind where this is absolutely not the case. I also just finished watching the last season of Happy Valley where this is also not the case, as in many other modern British tv shows I've seen in the last decade or two. In short, I think your comment is incorrect.

[@heatherdupont6443]

I totally agree with you. The second they broke the fourth wall and had them acknowledge a racial power structure I was totally pulled out of the story and thrown off. Because, them trying to explain black folks being in positions of power undermines the decision to have a diverse cast on a historical drama

[@cakt1991]

While I’m open to seeing what Queen Charlotte offers, I admit to not being super interested in her character. I’m much more interested in anything we get about Lady Danbury, especially given the crumbs of backstory in her first monologue to Simon on first meeting him, when she said she used to be a frightened little girl, but learned to be “frightening.” And unlike Charlotte, Lady D is already a prominent supporting character from the books, and would have been much more exciting spin-off material, and would have further promoted the “fantasy” aspect, as opposed to bending over backwards to try to justify their weakly drawn alternate history.

[@Sun.Shine-]

Oh yes the -bad b**ch- lady in red. She's just awesome 🙌

[@romana34]

Shout out to Alexander Dumas, whose father was a black general I do believe in the French army, making him a man of color. Also, we all know he was one of the greatest French authors of the 19 century, long, live the musketeers. Also to Malik Ambar, who took on the Mughal empire , and won It drives me crazy that we have to keep inventing stories when there are so many wonderful and incredible stories in western and eastern culture about people of color. Why can’t we highlight some of these true and incredible stories

[@moustik31]

Alexander Dumas' father was biracial.

[@Nl0R]

​@@moustik31 he had a life worthy of screen adaptation. Would be so much better to acknowledge historical figures of color instead of color and gender swaping everything.

[@moustik31]

@@Nl0R Why not both?

[@malum9478]

@@moustik31 ....and biracial people are black. especially him, who was said to be extremely phenotypically black. what's your point?

[@malum9478]

thomas alexander dumas had a life that was like an epic novel protagonist. he was a slave born half prince who was trained by a master swordsman(another black aristocrat with a novel story of his own) and then enlisted in the military at the ground level despite his nobility and rose up through the ranks to become one of the greatest generals of the time. he was said to stand almost a foot taller than most other men, be dashingly handsome, and hold strength like a bull. he famously defeated a squadron of enemies on a bridge _singlehandedly_ with nothing but a musket and sabre. he was also a true believer in that chivalry shit, stopping looting and execution wherever he went, enforcing better behavior in his men, and raising morale all the while. it was this genuinely heroic nature that brought him in conflict with napoleon whom he hated because he saw through him. the fact that not ONE movie exists of this guy, to me, is fucking insane. napoleon, the pos who let him die in squalor despite all dumas did for him, gets remembered like this god-king, but the general that actually fought his wars gets nothing? a tragedy befitting such a heroic figure i guess.

[@BlackXSunlight]

“Love conquers all” she says as her white husband lets her mother-in-law perm her daughter’s hair while she’s at work

[@katehartley2333]

I feel like The Green Knight did this pretty well casting Dev Patel (and his sisters) as Gawain. There was no explanation given but there were subtle hints in the subtext of the film that hinted that many historical people in Europe were indeed POC

[@danaroth598]

I'm a big fan of Arthurian adaptations in particular being casually diverse without trying to explain it. Even setting aside that the diversity of Roman Britain probably had a lingering IRL impact, those specific stories have only survived because generations have adjusted them to suit their own societal needs.

[@Madeleinewith3Es]

One thing I loved in the Guy Richie King Arthur was Chinese George, who's running a dojo in an old Roman bath that's set up like a wuxia film and when someone brings up his being there they just shrug and go with it.

[@MrImastinker]

@@Madeleinewith3Es And Bedivere being played by the underrated badass there is Djimon Hounsou.

[@garrettnewell374]

Fate series has Artoria girl version of King Arthur turn into a man threw Merlin magic to have child.

[@lovelydia101]

Just reading the comments (which are valid) I have a real issue that I dont think gets mentioned enough. I love period dramas, but why the hell are they soooooo euro centric. When we say period drama what comes to mind right away is european history. This grinds my gears as it furthers this shit idea that history revolves around Europe. That poc identites become relevant in thier relationship to europe. This is not an attack at people that are fans of european history and want to see diversity within that media, you guys should get that. But i feel we ignore diversity in culture and instead of demanding new stories we get fed the same ones over and over again. This is getting better but I would like to see period dramas diversifying the setting. This also means bringing on board diverse groups behind the camera as well.

[@julio_is_coolio]

So true. Western period media only focuses on european-dominated settings (like 19th century USA) or on Europe itself. Plenty of Victorian, Medieval, even Roman shows, but I don't know a single piece of fiction media about, let's say, Pre-Columbian civilizations

[@Elora445]

I wouldn't say that they are euro-centric. Most are very western-European, at most. Kind regards, a Northern European who are tired of always being represented by, at most, vikings. Most historic films seem to center around England (sometimes Scotland or Ireland) and France. More interesting stories are truly needed. Films about the middle ages can stop now, though. Also, Northern Europe has been settled for thousands of years. There are lots of films one could write about that period. Or why not write a story about the time when the Americas first got settled (as in when the Asians walked over the neck of land)? One could go either full historic or full fantasy with that period of history.

[@andresanguianozuniga6798]

I absolutely agree... But ironically the left is the most anti-European but at the same time its litterally obsessed with us. Its... Sick. And try to litterally rewrite history or try to use Fiction and fantasy to do that... When, later than earlier, fantasy NEEDS to respect TRUTHS. And Anthropological facts are part of it. And specially Murica who is obsessed with injecting PoCs in white things in general... No Matter what.

[@eunbis_rubi]

While I do agree that in the west and the states especially we should expand the types of period pieces that are made, it’s not uncommon for different writers to just write period pieces based off the countries they are from. I would highly recommend checking out some Chinese and Korean period pieces (there are especially a TON of Korean period pieces made every year). That being said I do think that often times, the period pieces being pushed here in the west either revolve around Western Europe, either of the two world wars, or cowboys in the US. Realistic or not rarely ever do these shows have a poc focus and/or lead and if they do have a more realistic angle, I’d argue that often times they ignore how a lot of poc were treated in favor for a more “softened” view.

[@theman9048]

100 percent. we have so much European focus period piece people forget that the rest of the world exist with its own complex history that are rich for story. unfortunately Hollywood does not seem to believe in these films. this is especially true for black people who have very few historical films outside of slavery films.

[@Nohandle1125]

As for Julia Quinn, I’m glad she ultimately decided against writing non-white characters because if she can’t represent us in a positive light, then she shouldn’t be representing us at all. No representation is better than bad representation.

[@catmomchantel]

In some way, I can see where you're coming from, but like... She writes historical fiction. She attended Harvard for god's sake. I think it shouldn't be beyond her means as an author to do some research and consult with POC to be able to both add in representation and write the 'explanation' for their existence in the text like she says she ~needs (and to make it not suck). I primarily read fiction and I've read plenty of novels where there is, say, a character in a very specific career field or where there's a criminal trial, and the author, in their credits, thanks someone that works in the field they're writing about for helping them be accurate/helping with their research. I know her genre is romance and I've never read her novels but, because they are historical romance specifically, I find it hard to believe that she just writes them with no research/input whatsoever. She seems capable of doing the work but just doesn't want to.

[@Nohandle1125]

@@catmomchantelI 100% agree! Her “inability” to include non-white characters in her stories was more of an “unwillingness to”. Imo. As you said, she has the education, intellect, resourcefulness AND resources to create a world that included groups that are often excluded from these particular works of fiction. She simply chose not to. JQ literally chose to limit her imagination and restrict her story telling to the world she wanted to live in that excluded people of colour.

[@twiceshy9773]

Oooh- now I agree with all of you!!😂😭🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

[@tomboy2980]

I'm reminded of a post I once saw that said "Two people in the same minority group can want/need two completely opposite things in their representation and neither of them are necessarily invalid for it and can coexist." The example OP gave was trans rep, where some trans people really need stories about being rejected by your entire support network and having to claw your way to living freely because they feel seen by that, whereas another trans person may be tired of that and instead prefer stories where being trans isn't a societal transgression and you can just exist freely, and neither of those people are wrong for wanting that. I'd like to imagine Shonda and/or another person on the staff were looking into diverse casting and wanted to extend this romantic opulent tone into a world that not only had people who looked like them, but where a mixed race monarchal marriage really could end slavery and elevate POC socially with a snap of a finger. It's not an invalid fantasy, it comes from a very real place, but of course like you said the real Charlotte very much did not change the real British society like that, and if you're gonna point that out in the narrative, you have to go all the way with it. You're totally right that it wants to have its cake (ahistoricalish diverse cast) and eat it too (give an explanation for why they're there and create a fantasy around love fixing everything, even the atlantic slave trade apparently) but so far it does very little to actually engage with that reality to its logical end. I'm also super interested to see if Queen Charlotte does anything to change that pattern.

[@guardianofcreativity4860]

The best media in my opinion, knows what it is and owns it proudly. It picks a few things and goes all in on it. So Bridgerton being wish fulfillment has a place and purpose and is enjoyable, but go all in and BE wish fulfillment. Don’t undermine what you’ve created by poking holes in the fantasy for the sake of bringing “accuracy” into the narrative. A show/movie/book doesn’t need to be everything all at once, and I think trying to tackle too many things ends up diluting the character of the entire piece. If you want a narrative with diverse characters, not have it be wish fulfillment, and tackle some tough issues while still having a happy ending, I don’t think it’s impossible to write that story in a period setting. I’m sure with the right people it could be done fantastically. But it’s not easy, it doesn’t work well with people half heartedly depicting fantasy history, and for the time being might be better by committing to the history OR the fantasy of it.

[@corneliahanimann2173]

I didn't think of Bridgerton as a period drama because it doesn't understand that time period in the first place. I thought it is self aware that this is some reinterpretation in an alternate universe, they don't attempt to be accurate, I think the wholr appeal is the societal pressurento get married and make it a fantasy about a powerful traditional man. I would not be surprised if they all suddenly turned out to be werewolves. .

[@guardianofcreativity4860]

@@corneliahanimann2173 the werewolves idea made me giggle thank you for putting that image in my mind.

[@samanthasmith61]

@@corneliahanimann2173 we both know why they did it, i would even dare them to make them all black and poc don't use any white people! but they won't do that, they need white people to make it believable or fantasizable. that's why black ariel 2023 still has a white price instead of black prince 🙄 guess the reason

[@corneliahanimann2173]

@@guardianofcreativity4860 you are very welcome😂😂. Yea I might have a more controversial and unpopular take as a white person that does not have the appropriate history to voice an opinion on when black people should or should not be represented. But for a "hold my beer" moment: I feel like Bridgerton reads a lot like these smut novels, which is why I brought up that I would not be surprised if they all suddenly were werewolfs or vampires or any other reason a horny woman finds to write about dominant men and sex with those men. To me it is clear that the stories are about diving into sexfantasies much more than about making genuine commentary about a society that puts men on a pedestal, because in reality most of these societies have a high number of domestic abuse cases on women and systems that are ignorant towards these women. No this is just fiction, and if it's going to be glamourous fiction, why not cast black people all over the place? It would seem off to be fantastical and imaginative about every single aspect when it comes to the time period, but then suddenly insist on portraying black people only as slaves and such. In that sense, I think it does something very healthy to my brain that I have to look up to a queen that is black and makes the rules. That has not happened to me and in reality or in fiction. I do understand that the show should not try to have it both ways though, where it tries to discuss the past, but not really. It's a matter of time until they mess that up.

[@corneliahanimann2173]

@@samanthasmith61 oh no Injust wrote a lengthy comment that is actually more or less in favour of the choice to cast black people. I do recognize that your opinion is likely more valid than mine, but if you have the time and motivation to do so, feel free to read it and critisize me on why I might be wrong or where you maybe agree. I haven't seen the new ariel, is it out already?

[@KristenNicoleYT]

Julia could’ve summed it up pretty simply with “I don’t have the range“ when asked why her characters aren’t diverse

[@khfan4life365]

And her books are historical romances. England wasn’t diverse in the early 19th century. Until recently, the only race that occupied England was white European. Blacks didn’t start going to the UK until after WWII when travel became more convenient.

[@melowlw8638]

​​@@khfan4life365 im sure there were black ppl from like the 1700s onwards (using this century bc i assume england's history of slavery is somewhat similar to france's and that seeing black slaves in both those places in the 1700s makes sense) they were just forced to be in england what im saying is it sort of sounds like ure saying there were no black ppl in england until ww2 but there were probably some alread way before that just not in the same conditions as those coming over after/during the war since england has had colonies for a whole while before then

[@khfan4life365]

@@melowlw8638 yes, but they were only pockets. White people were the majority in that country. No matter how much people try to rewrite England’s history, 19th century England was overwhelmingly 99% white.

[@blackhawk8920]

@@melowlw8638 To mean it sounded like before WW2 the amount of blacks was insignificant compared to how many there are currently in England.

[@FromPointAtoMe]

I get what Shronda Rhines was trying to do, and I'm glad it introduced me to the Bridgeton books, but if she wanted diversity and color-blind cast, she could have chosen a great number of authors who deal with interracial period books. Like Vanessa Reiley for instance, she has a lot of good regency romance that already have a diverse cast built in.

[@LunaWitcherArt]

Please I just want to see people boning and developing relationships in gowns 😩 Even the more feminist-leaning plotline of Elodie still only served to me as a background for her to meet a man who drinks respect women juice that she could connect with. I just want good romance, Shonda stop trying to explain the entire political climate that allowed for mixed race couples, I BEG OF YOU

[@rosedalinevaletine6931]

That’s on period.

[@bushdenae]

Yea honestly I would prefer them to actually have a kind of colorblind society ironic as that is 😅

[@JustRaeesa]

I think they need to take a lesson from Whitney Houston's 1997 Cinderella. In that film, the king is white, the queen is Black and their son is East-Asian yet no one tries to explain any of it, it isn't a plot point, it just exists and we love it.

[@zainmudassir2964]

True. It adds to the charm that it was a passion project and everyone having a good time performing

[@katarinawikholm5873]

No, we don’t. The casting is stupid, whichever way it ends up.

[@yougotgamesonyourphone6947]

@@katarinawikholm5873 good thing literally no one cares Katarina. Don’t watch it.

[@katarinawikholm5873]

@@yougotgamesonyourphone6947 Good thing not everyone is clueless

[@gothicavictoria1341]

@@katarinawikholm5873 You must be so fun at parties. If a show or movie has color blind casting and people generally love it, why does it bother you? Why say "the casting is stupid", which isn't even constructive criticism, based on a show that already isn't interested in making something historically accurate? You're looking a little bit racist, or at the very least ignorant

[@ashahedwig97]

What’s annoying is that there are historical fiction writers who wrote about the British gentry who put POC characters into their stories because the world has been interconnected for a loooong time- Courtney Milan comes to mind for example. The world of romance is more diverse than putting a Black man on the cover of a book and then having the inside describe him an blond and blue eyed.

[@CT_Phipps]

I think the problem is insurmountable because the peak frivolity is due to the fact they belong to an upper class created from the exploitation of others. You either acknowledge the problem, which ruins any real enjoyment of "who is bedding who" when the empire is built on slavery or you turn your brain off. This is similar to Disney's The Lone Ranger which acknowledged JUST ENOUGH of the horrific lies of the Old West that you can't just enjoy the movie (and...sorta props for that?)

[@malum9478]

this. the problem is with the setting at it's core. stories about the past in britain and the us and france etc. are going to inevitably end up feeling off because these are time periods where human beings are property, and that dynamic is what ALLOWS for their riches--both in the period in question and in the present. the wounds are still open.

[@BananLord]

​@@malum9478 series about any time before the end of black slavery in the USA should show that there were slaves of all races. Everyone just ignores that the Vikings enslaved fellow whites bcs they belonged to a different ethnicity and country.

[@wildcatste]

Belle is a great example of a period romance that grapples with the historical context. Absolutely love that film. But as Princess says slavery race and class are a huge part of the plot. I mean as odd as it sounds the political awakening is part of the romance.

[@Lorenzogino]

the unfortunate truth is the majority of black members of the European upper class were the offspring of a white man and a black woman he enslaved. Chevalier de Saint-Georges was also the child of an enslaved woman. you can't tell these stories without that truth.

[@samanthasmith61]

Belle is not actually since Belle is the prototype Bridgerton... the real story of Dido Belle was 90% opposite than in the movie... which obviously correlated to her real circumstances and real historical context. but the movie Belle elevated Dido into near Bridgerton level of fantasy, suddenly she was an heiress, she was paraded among to find an Aristocrat husband and people fell for her etc... all lies John daviniere is a fing servant he cleans boots not this handsome abolitionist lawyer, not to mention Dido was 32 when she eventually married while Elizabeth had been married since beforr dido father even died

[@kahkah1986]

@@samanthasmith61 illegitimate children of the time often struggled in this way in comparison to their legitimate half-siblings, and marriage was much more of a financial thing for everyone. Like, the average age of a first-time marriage would be mid-20s, not 16 as we are led to believe. Similarly, illegitimate children were often raised to take on more prestigious servant/ estate work roles, not dissimilar to the whole 'house slave' thing.

[@samanthasmith61]

@@kahkah1986 that's not the point here lol, the point is black African directors wanting to make black fantasy where black people wearing fancy clothing and be in the Aristocratic world when that's not even the case, the closest example to that was Dido Belle which is real historical figure and she still was nowhere near that, but instead in the movie she was transformed into almost "Bridgerton" existence, she ironically wore all the pink gown, while her cousin elizabeth wore brown color lol... and they also changed the painting in that movie.. Dido was poor actually, her poor father died in 1788 leaving her nothing, Elizabeth already married and moved away in 1785, she stayed behind until Lord M died then she married but Lord M only gave her £500 and £100 annuity less than Bennet sisters got. while he gave lady Elizabeth £10,000. Eliza father gave Eliz £7000 and he invited Eliz to Royal ball with him, in which she would have prepared months before purchasing court dresses ( ironically 1770s style since it is preferred by Queen Charlotte.. lol), choosing family diamonds and necklace to wear, etc. it's a huge affair and this happened multiple times since her father was Aristocratic and Ambassador to Paris. Dido wasn't invited to any of these royal ball, not even ball thrown by Elizabeth's stepmom. again it's just insanely inaccurate even though it's actually about real historical poc, there are still so many changes that they make the opposite to real dido? why because they wanted to make her into a Bridgerton 💀 but this was 2013, now they succeeded even Queen Charlotte was black they never cared about black experience or black story, no! they just wanted to be their white fantasy... taste of being white queen or white duchess.

[@kahkah1986]

@@samanthasmith61 yup, although what I was trying to say was, historical Dido's treatment was not unique to the black experience, most illegitimate people at the time would have experienced some, if not all, of the things that set her apart from her legitimate family. Most people were poor too, only a tiny percentage of anyone ever experienced the Bridgerton lifestyle, so yup, as you say, it is a fantasy,

[@Madeleinewith3Es]

I wish it had just been like the Branaugh Much Ado About Nothing, where the most symmetrically perfect man Denzel Washington is the prince, and Keanu Reeves is his half brother with absolutely no explanation or comment. Or the BBC Merlin with Gwen and her family being black in early Medieval England (which is believable by them being descendants of Roman auxiliaries) but no one ever mentioned it. Sidenote but Alexandre Dumas biopic when?

[@Sam_on_YouTube]

For a long time I've wanted to see a movie of the story of William Lee, George Washington's slave and right hand man during the Revolution. He had a really interesting life that is great for commenting on the broken promises enshrined into America right from its start. And he should be played by Daveed Diggs. Diggs' association with the characters of Lafayette and Jefferson make the casting itself a commentary as both of those people had a really interesting relationship with Lee personally and with slavery overall. Lafayette last saw Lee when he was being honored with a parade. He saw Lee in the crowd and stopped the parade so he could honor him. He was horrified thay Lee was never treated as the war hero he was.

[@CatHasOpinions734]

OK, listening to Quinn talk about how difficult it would be to write "believable" white characters that are progressive in the context of their time is, as someone who's read better-written and more realistic historical romance, mind boggling. Emily Fairfield and Anjan Bhattacharya would like a word.

[@cruztastrophe]

I'm glad that she's admitting to that and adhering to it though. If she believes that she couldn't do a POC character justice with her writing, she shouldn't write one. Not everyone can be a great writer in all ways. I'd rather she not write a POC character at all than for her to write one in a way that feels like tokenism or plays on stereotypes.

[@CatHasOpinions734]

@@cruztastrophe that's true, but it seemed to me that she was implying that it couldn't be done or wasn't a realistic or fair thing for people to expect, and I don't think that's reasonable. If you're not up to it, that's fine, but don't suggest that it would be unrealistic to have some characters that are progressive within the context of their time. It's more unrealistic NOT to have some of those characters, because there have always been people objecting to the status quo.

[@cruztastrophe]

@@CatHasOpinions734 my interpretation of her quote was "that's not my story to tell. I'm a romance writer" which makes sense. If she can't write social and political intrigue, that's why she wouldn't have penned a book that's a prequel/back story to an interracial romance. Which sounds like a personal problem to me, but it is what it is.

[@selty]

@@cruztastrophe She could have said it way better though.

[@kahkah1986]

@@CatHasOpinions734 I think what she was trying to say is that if you were going to be historically accurate, what was considered progressive within the context of the time would not now be considered a worthy role-model. You can see this in historical characters who represented enslaved persons at legal trials to get them their freedom, who at the same time were sceptical that the trade could/ should be ended, for example. Or they might feel it only right that their wife have her own money etc., which would be progressive for the Regency times, but feel uncomfortable if they wanted a job. I think that would just be acceptable nuance, personally, but I can appreciate why she might feel she would get shot down in flames with other people feeling they couldn't accept characters with those views.

[@mmarrrow]

I've never seen Bridgerton, so up until literally this moment, I fr thought it was an original romantic drama set in an alt-history Europe where the transatlantic slave trade had straight-up never happened. Everything in this video is bewildering news

[@samanthasmith61]

if it never happened then Indian would be wearing indian clothing, black people would wearing african clothing.... but nope they were all whitewashed in Bridgerton and acting like those colonizer white people help

[@FoxxyFatima]

You’re not the only one. They can’t do anything right, our trauma always has to be included (it’s mentioned and never brought up again). Since the TAST does exist, I wonder if they’re making mono-racial or multiracial, like how slavery was during the ancient period?

[@kantakouzini]

we cant swirl our way out of racism, and to imply that somehow all things in society relaed to imperialism, assimilation, destruction of culture, slavery etc. can be dropped when people join in love is really just as silly as this whole series is. multigenerationally "mixed" race family , from the south - mississippi/louisiana - and i can guarantee it fixes nothing in context of race relations. im happy theres love shown between peoples, especially in these hateful times and im happy theres, as you said, non 6f people are featured and casted but this storyline?, nah

[@kantakouzini]

also, PHENOTYPE, our world and society is so consumed by it that i really dont see how this can play with this subject and really deny how featurism would become the law of the land.

[@JaiProdz]

Actually never watched bridgerton but I just love your takes and knowledge of history and the way you talk about media is so brilliant

[@KookiesNolly]

My take on BIPOC in historical dramas is either make the casting clearly color blind like in theater or create roles that make sense for BIPOC to play in that setting. I accept nothing other than that. Bridgerton bs about trying to explain why BIPOC could seamlessly be included in english imperialism (through the power of love no less) is insulting and actually contributes a lot to the racist idea that BIPOC didn't exist at the time, that you mentioned towards the end of the video. The only way in my opinion to affectively challenge that racist idea is by telling the stories of BIPOC of that time, or at least tell stories inspired by them. To turn historical figures that everyone knows to be white into a black person just leads to the conclusion that we weren't in fact around at that time and that's why they couldn't find any other way to include us. Bridgerton is frivolous crap so i find it silly to take it as seriously as the writers of the show themselves take it. But if we're talking representation in period pieces, tell our actual stories for a change! We were more than slaves but we were also not the english monarchy lol. But at the end of the day, Hollywood is just lazy and sticks to what sells to the white masses anyway, so it's not surprising that we see a billion stories about the imperialist inbreds of britain more than anyone else.

[@chikzdigmohawkz]

Brandy's Cinderella did it best, and it feels like no movie or TV show since has even *tried* to come close.

[@stephaniewilliams6756]

The G.O.A.T

[@shadowmaster1313]

Lady Danburys thing about the new black nobility in season 1 is completely undercut by Simon being still the 7th (i forget which number but definitely not 2nd) duke and his parents both being black.

[@o4ka47]

Golda Rosheuvel is a great actress, but queen Charlotte's character is only there to be used as a plot device when the writers have written themselves in a corner. Also the series is diverse but the producers chose to cast white actors to play the family at the centre of it and that says a lot.

[@chocotoasties2671]

This is why I don't like retroactive representation. We need more media made by people who always gave a damn

[@stephaniewilliams6756]

Octavia................Butler

[@BladeRedwind]

I grew up with Bridgerton in my early teens. I was reading The Duke and I when most people were reading Harry Potter. For me, the series was my HP. (Now they're both problematic; although at least JQ isn't a TERF x,X. So far.) When the series was announced I was elated. It'd been years since I'd read the series, but I had a real fondness for it. I binged the first season over Thanksgiving weekend and loved it---with one caveat: the race thing. When trailers were being shown and it was announced, I assumed they'd go more race blind with it the same way Shakespearean plays do. (I mean, otherwise how would people of color get to play in Hamlet?) And I thought was a good idea because the show was meant to be a fantasy version of Regency/Georgian London. And then Lady Danbury when on that whole speech about love and Queen Charlotte and I was like, "....what? WHY?" And let me say, of the JQ interview, I understand what she was trying to say, but it's fundamentally wrong and I would 100% argue that point with her. She's basically saying that her characters are racist and possibly also homophobic because historical accuracy is important to her and if she had to write that in she'd be exposing their racism and homophobia. Which makes zero sense when her books are far from historically accurate, much less culturally so. She could have just said, "I personally don't feel comfortable writing the experiences of people that I don't know much about, even in a not-100% historically accurate setting."

[@dorianr4770]

so basically... it can't just be the casting, and it can't be thoughtless. and there have to be Black and brown writers, directors, workers all across the table, as well as the actors themselves. p.s. I thought Lin Manuel-Miranda's Hamilton kinda threaded this needle pretty well.

[@radguurl]

A shame he failed on that in the movie version of The Heights, where he all but erased the Brown Latinos who exist in the real neighborhood the musical is based on 🙄

[@sunnyblossom_711]

except Hamilton is a good example of recasting historically white people as people of color to the detriment of POC. there's no reflection on why it's awful to cast POC as people who were slave owners and racists (including Hamilton himself through his wife's family). it's why Toni Morrison funded "The Haunting of Lin Manuel Miranda," a play by Ismael Reed about the errors in judgment LMM made in creating Hamilton, including basing it off the Chernow biography which is more fiction than non-fiction. it would have been better if it wasn't about the white people who founded the US and instead about some events of what BIPOC in the region were actually doing at the time (maroon societies, Indigenous revolt etc.).

[@gokellurseff8435]

Lin Manuel Miranda is the worst thing to come our of Puerto Rico since Hurricane Irma 😭😭😭

[@itowilltube]

@@gokellurseff8435 joder.

[@kantakouzini]

@@sunnyblossom_711 I was just about to say why are people still on this Hamilton thing, do they not understand how woefully wrong it is? The fact that Toni Morrison went in on funding says alot and I wish people would pay more attention to tht play bc it's really well done and a fine critic of lin

[@vodka9384]

I just want my 3 season+ period show set in Ancient Egypt, Ancient China, and literally any other European country that isn't England.

[@FuzzyKittenBoots]

I know there's at least one (I think several( about ancient China. Specifically following the concubines and all the insane drama around trying to become the emperors favourite. :)

[@skeletonflower_]

If you want to watch shows set in Ancient Chian, I recommend just watching Chinese historical dramas. There are many good ones and you can watch them easily online.

[@DaduaMaiga]

I'm also waiting for a King Taharqa movie, one of the black pharaohs during the 25th Dynasty from the Kingdom of Kush (modern-day Sudan)...also, as for Egypt you can watch the Tut Series that was released in Spike in 2015 and the A.D. The Bible Continues which was released in the same year.

[@FallenEpic]

To me Bridgerton is a fantasy and that's not a bad thing. It's just that suddenly they tried making the fun fantasy try to do the heavy lifting of Serious Alternative History Speculation.

[@zellalaing5439]

Yessss thank you for making the point on the Black Anne Boleyn series. When I saw it advertised my forst thought was "really, Boleyn AGAIN, why can't you do original stories about actual black aristocrats".

[@annaalessandrini9965]

We always expect a lot of emotional labor from minority to educate us. I don’t know shit, I was never educated properly on systemic racism, oppression, ableism etc.. I’m trying to do my best to challenge my privilege, study, and listen in the more humble way I can. Thank you, I really appreciate what you’re doing here

[@annaalessandrini9965]

My disability is not visible and I’m white, and I would feel very uncomfortable profiting from the story of someone who have to face discrimination because is visible on them, without even trying to make space for their voices and stories

[@steff6146]

I know you said you’re just learning but you’re already making great progress. This is good allyship. Keep reading! Even as a marginalized person in numerous ways , I’m privileged in others and keep learning!

[@annaalessandrini9965]

@@steff6146 I’m trying ❤️❤️ but thank you so much. I hope to be more nuance and supportive every time I heard a new voice

[@evildoesnotsleep-x2b]

Shonda Rhimes has actual done impeccable colourblind casting in her unknown series Still Star Crossed, where everyone was of different ethnicities, looked perfect and no one batted an eye. It launched Lashana Lynch's career. I'd much prefer this version than one that half-asses the political explanation. Too bad I was the only person watching this show 😂

[@ambre4144]

I started it a year ago ( For Lashana ) but I never finished it🤔. I should definitely go watch the whole thing now

[@KittyOfChess]

There’s a show? I love that book so much, it’s my canon for what happened after Romeo and Juliet.

[@LindsayHoliday]

Thanks for the shout-out! You make some great points

[@Princess_Weekes]

Thank you for making great stuff xx

[@jayla3282]

I think one of the novels that coulnt do race bending is wuthering heights, heathcliff being specifically the only non white (his race is really ambiguous, he is refered as black, indian, g*psy and even chinese) character is one of the main factors as to why he is seen as different and not in the same class as catherine

[@Ulaclarewrites]

I reccently learned a lot of academics think he’s SEA, of some kind, though I always pictured him to be a black man. There was a great 2017(18?) version that had a black heathcliff and they were played by really early 20s/teen actors so they look the part

[@tvbitchin]

I feel like casting heathcliff as a man of color is does not really count as racebending because regardless of whatever the fuck emily bronte's intentions were, the way the text itself is so blatant in constantly describing heathcliff as non white made it so impossible for me to make sense of any interpretation of the text in which he is just a white man that gets a lot of misdirected racism, it's actually so fucking insane to me that most movie and series adaptations of the book cast white actors for the role

[@jayla3282]

@@tvbitchin heathcliff is very explicitly non white in the text, I think its heavily implied he is roma and it makes sense if one studies the place he was brought from in that time, but the characters are intentionally made to be ignorant by bronte so they confuse him with several other ethnicities that they lump together, at least that was my impression. And yeah I agree its insane that so many adaptations just...ignore? The fact that he gets racially profiled by almost every other character in the novel lmao

[@Figgy5119]

I just am popping in the comments to say your makeup is gorgeous and you do indeed look fabulous in the crown. Glad to listen to your take and get some new recommendations to watch from you!

[@katherinealvarez9216]

Placeholder comment section Edit: Very much agreed to everything said in the video. And my unneeded opinion is why open that can of worms, why do the alternate history route and just not commit to it? The effort given to this world building is so superficial and half hearted and they want a medal for it. And they didn't have to. They didn't do this in Still Starcrossed. I hope that made sense. Also yes, watch Mr Malcolm's List, read Aphrodite and The Duke the sequel is coming out, Courtney Milan The Duke Who Didn't, and please add more.

[@eddyesdras]

Huahaha 😸

[@CaptainPeregrin]

I'm a white person who just so happens to have a set of fairly Asian-looking facial features (people sometimes ask me where I'm "from" when I'm hanging out with my Korean friends, especially when I have a mask on). But my actual blood is about as European as they come. Some people just randomly have facial features more commonly associated with a different gene pool.

[@sashhhaa4874]

Because race isn’t real, or should I say… based on genetics. It’s all phenotypical. Like you, people usually assume I’m a different race to the race I identify as, due to the shade of my skin. 😅

[@akwright4116]

Shoutout to Beverly Jenkins, a brilliant Black historical romance writer who has the skills Quinn does not. I never feel like the historical context overwhelms the romance and rather adds to it.

[@Ziggi_onthe_RISE]

I absolutely agree with your reasoning of not trying to change the narrative on how race was historically handled to “justify” the inclusion… I would stretch the importance further to note that (coming from a mostly white experience/perspective), for those who have lived in privilege outside the need to challenge their racial position in the world, my privilege of private education growing up especially treated racism like a done deal, a fixed flaw of the past that we ‘overcame’ and ‘set right’ along the way after a few hiccups. This is why it is so hard for many deeply conservative leaning folks to accept the fact that we have been getting it wrong all along and haven’t gotten close to resolving race issues in America. For many coming from a background like mine, where there has been no challenge to the existing privilege known as a member benefiting from white supremacy in the systematic hierarchy, a show like this, while it should be seen as obviously fictional, helps to reinforce the notion that the problem was resolved long ago if you write into a historical narrative a way of letting the viewers mind to work around the hard facts of the past. How the show interjects the social commentary makes the white characters seem centuries ahead of the facts, and allows those in the present, some ignorant or uniformed otherwise, to rewrite the past so far as they see it, because let’s face it, most people of privilege won’t and don’t do the work of deconstructing their internal racial dialogue to catch the nuance that the show’s bending of the truth sidesteps to entertain and capture viewers. Literally capitalism promotes historical rewrites to make a profit off an audience happy to overlook instead of learn and adapt to the truth. I believe that Shonda and the writers have to be aware of this on some level, but choose the path of least resistance because the show might not have done as well if race was handled accurately. But on the other hand, they might also have been equally as scathingly criticized for attempting to cast the conversation aside altogether to live in it purely as fantasy… I guess I’m stuck in this middle ground where I’m not appeased by the feeble attempts to coddle around any white guilt, but I’m at the same time glad we’re having a conversation about it here.

[@emilyrln]

This is a really good point. I can see the creators being criticized for going full escapist revisionist fantasy and "ignoring the problem" but also being equally panned for trying to tackle it head-on and likely falling short. Damned if you do, damned if you don't… and damned if you go the milquetoast middle road and half-assedly crowbar systemic racism into the fluffy romance plot.

[@gollum1ring]

I was hoping music from Six wouldn't get stuck in my head before the touring production comes to town next week, but here we are.

[@briefisbest]

Thank you for shouting out History Tea time! One of the most informative places for monarchy information.

[@wildcatste]

Yes! I love history tea time!

[@stephaniewilliams6756]

This is like a huge crossiver event for me yeah, live both channels. History is sort of hard to make relevant And interesting. Tea Time is a go-to

[@yishkabob]

Props to you for including that long clip of Julia Quinn in the video for context. Yeah, she didn't do the work, but you can see she had a decent ethical framework for why she made the writing decisions she did.

[@theforgetfulalchemist]

I know basically nothing about Bridgerton beyond people seemingly regarding it as a hot mess plus the arguments/discourse surrounding the historical accuracy or lack thereof in the costumes. This will be very interesting.

[@katharineeavan9705]

Funnily enough, similar criticisms hold true for both the racial politics and costumes: the show is pretty and fun and people like it on those terms, but do not want the show clumsily attempting to legitimize historical innacuracies that are better off left at "it's pretty and fun this way"

[@khfan4life365]

Funnily enough, the books are more accurate than the show, which makes me wonder why they adapted the books if they were going to deviate from the source material so much.

[@ArtichokeHunter]

I'm currently reading A Master of Djinn by P. Djeli Clark, and it's historical fantasy rather than historical romance, but I think it's notable in acknowledging the racism of its era and depicting characters who are blatantly racist in appropriate ways for the time. It seems like the Bridgerton author's point is really that if you're telling stories about white people in that time period, it's hard to justify them not being racist and it's hard to make modern readers care about racists, so her solution is just to... write racist characters who never encounter anyone or any conversation that would make their racism obvious? Idk man, if you center characters of color, you don't have to trick your readers into liking racist characters. You can let the racist characters be unlikeable.

[@raychelreed5565]

I think you pretty much nailed it by all those examples of POC in period shows vs Bridgeton. And it basically coming down to it that you can't have it both ways, have your cake and eat it too. You can't have frivolity of a color blind world where the main focus is the love story (following Julia Quinn's view), and then turn around and try and make a large social statement. True, people are more than their race, gender, age, etc, but it is still a part of who they are, the lives they've lived, and the people they become. Great video~ My friend and I were also talking about how to tackle color blind casting in a book, and I would love to hear what people have to say on the subject!~

[@Sara_TheFatCultureCritic]

I would love to hear more of your thoughts on Sanditon, maybe you've done that and I missed it. I struggle with Bridgerton for a bunch of reasons including as a mixed (though Nb) person, I bounce so hard off the "love conquers" thing. My parents love each other as much as anyone, but they still had to leave Britain because people didn't want to hire a Brown doctor with a White wife. And that was in the 1970s, never mind the 1870s.I wish I could suspend my disbelief enough to go with it.

[@justincheng5241]

The movie Belle (2013) is interesting in that it did depict an actual mixed race noble woman in regency Britain and it didn't hold back in depicting the absolute racism of the British aristocracy.

[@beckybyt]

Great vid! I'm also really looking forward to Chevalier bc the lead actor was great in Cyrano (another diverse period piece which was actually good)

[@eric2500]

You have a good point, Princess. Fantasy deserves its own space. History is what it was, we learn from it, but can't fix it, we can only fix the present.

[@nickywal]

A lot of people's issues with it were that the production team acted like they were trailblazers for putting a few black people in the first season and also having black people in Regency England at all. There had been a significant black population for centuries, even before they started the slave trade and the boxer dude is straight from history. But to claim colourblind casting, then somehow missing the huge South Asian population, was another issue and why Kate and co were changed. Which no issues with that Kate, Simon and Lady Danbury walk off the pages of the book other than ethnicity. Also most British shows, historical or otherwise, have a pretty diverse cast these days. You're talking the country that ruled a fifth of the world, a lot of immigrants came here, London is probably one of the most diverse cities on the planet. Although that they went to the effort of showing the henna ceremony, then had Edwina wear a white wedding dress was quite something. White wasn't the wedding colour until Queen Victoria and in India white is almost entirely reserved for funerals. But also to defend the casting as well the King fell in love with a black woman and so voila no more racism is ridiculous. The man was considered so insane, the whole period is named because his son ruled instead. I don't know that that's the woke statement they seemed to think it was. He wasn't insane and the poor man went through years of basically torture, when he actually had porphyria, we know that because his medical records talk about his urine turning blue in the sun. Which pretty much only porphyria does

[@kristinpeace6266]

I agree with many of your points! At first I wasn’t dying for this story. I was like “why do we need the Queen’s story?” It was very touching. But I found talking “the great experiment” and “your side, our side” talk very juvenile while alluding to their race. They should’ve just let them exist. I didn’t need an explantation of having this cast in this show. Mr Malcolm’s List is an excellent example! Just let them exist in this entertainment!

[@filelps1178]

i'm excited to watch this even though i had to stop watching the show after like 7 episodes. The acting bothered me at times and dear god..... the music broke my brain/ If i have to hear another pop song turned orchestral i'm gonna cry

[@Nohandle1125]

I think one of the reasons I greatly appreciated PBS Masterpieces is because they did often times make a conscious effort to be more inclusive. Perhaps to the degree that we expect today, but for the time i was really watching it, they included several non-white actors and actresses playing more than servant roles.

[@phoenixfrommars5832]

i wondered since this and the witcher color blind casting, why not make fantasy shows inspired by african folklore, or set in these regions, with a black cast and a backround rooted in these cultures, instead of making a white story more diverse. and i count Bridgerton to this, since it is barely Historical, it is fantasy but thats ok. i am from Europe and i rarely see my culture in Amerika based Media, but the witcher didn´t feel more diverse, just more Amerikan, it had taken the Slavic backround away that i identified with, but didn´t add anything. i would be intersted hearing POC feels about this.

[@JaiProdz]

American shows based on African folklore are not supported by the public, nor given budgets from studios. This is why the "next best thing" to answer calls for diversity, is to add it to something white/default. It's sad but true. I think it would be nice if we could have stories that were based on African folklore and historical figures. But I also don't think diversifying a period drama is the worst thing in the world especially since stage dramas are colorblind when it comes to race, age,gender often but when it's a tv show or film people tend to be up in arms more often.

[@michalovesanime]

What I understood is that none of the people writing for the Witcher show even really liked the source material. That's why they butchered it. The diverse cast really had nothing to do with it. The disregard for the cultural aspects to the Witcher, and broader, everything connected to the franchise, really ruined it and that by itself has nothing to do with having people of different skin colors. I am black myself but I dropped the show. Most of us really have no interest in diversity for diversity sake. And I won't watch something just because there are black people in it. I was interested in all of those aspects that the writters didn't respect or notice. We've been watching white people and their stories our entire lives ( those of us from the West at least), we also have taste and most of us enjoy watching all kinds of different stories and people. We'd love more media with stories from the continent or even about black people in the West outside of slavery, it's just not something that is supported by the people who decide what gets made.

[@PhotonBeast]

​@@michalovesanime Agreed; it's more than just "Make a show using X cultural aesthetic" since, at least in American discourse, an all-white or diverse cast with any fantasy trappings (even drawing from non-European aesthetics) is typically seen as neutral whereas a cast without any white actors with even a bog standard European aesthetic would be considered distinctly 'political' and 'about' race to one degree or another.

[@LadyAhro]

On a technical level Sapkowski has said many times that The Witcher isn't exclusively polish considering the other folklores he's included. Considering that all humans are non native to the world I never really minded the casting, since the portals humans are from could have come from any place. However I do think there was a fair bit of miscasting beyond the main Geralt, Yen and Ciri trio.

[@LadyAhro]

What we actually need is a good Wizard of Earthsea adaptation since 90% of that world is darker skinned.

[@tiberiusgracchi-gb6tf]

I think that the race blind casting in Bridgerton was really cool but what they should have done was either a) changed the setting to a fantasy time and place that has all of the aesthetics of the regency era without the baggage of being a real time and place which would have been fine because nothing in the books which I’ve read or the show is essentially regency beyond the aesthetics, the establishment of the regency or the wars against Napoleon or the changes that occurred to how British imperialism operated after the loss of the 13 colonies, the Industrial Revolution and birth of modern capitalism or the growth of the abolitionist movement in Britain or b) what I thought it was doing at first, making no pretenses about the fact that it’s a representation of an era and that these are actors playing people not the people themselves, just like in Hamilton Alexander Hamilton isn’t written to be non white or a rapper you’re supposed to understand that you’re seeing a representation and not the man himself. The way that they did it steals the escapist fantasy away from POC but also creates a lot of strange questions

[@leleprtk]

Princess, just wanna say that I've just read your article on Midge Maisel and it was such a great read! Her character always bothered me and I could never properly explain why and you took the words right out of my mouth! You're a great writer

[@crystalcastillo7575]

Woah I did not know the Elizabeth the 1st was the first monarch to fund ships full of enslaved people. You learn something new everyday

[@power1990]

Even more spot-on now than when it came out. Making up fake racial politics so they can be/have been trivially solved in less than a generation seems like the worst possible option. Like...the show does not have anything to say about race, and the fact that it keeps trying and failing is so weird. (Also me laughing my ass off that the reality of "love conquers all" was actually the King's mom going 'oh shit she's black, better elevate some black nobility an hour before the wedding.')

[@hannahwicks7197]

i would love bridgerton to produce spin off series for every single percieved historical inaccuracy. why are they all wearing white wedding dresses? spin off series about the fictional character who started the white wedding dress trend before queen victoria. why do they have sequins on their dresses? spin off series about the early invention of plastic but only for making sequins. why are they playing modern songs? spin off series about taylor swift and harry styles travelling back in time to teach their songs to string quartets.

[@CirceIsland]

My favorite thing about reading Austin is all of what I call polite shade that is thrown just so. An all Poc cast of P&P would be amazing.

[@Awakening_Sunshine]

I thought at first it was just colorblind casting (or even a fictionalized, color-blind version of the regency period), which would have been fine, but then they went on to make it a whole plot point

[@meowv34]

I would love to see the rise of period pieces in other parts of the world. I'm just so sick of British stories being the only historic stories being told. Thats why even though it had lots of issues I enjoyed the women king.

[@rochellerodriguez6431]

Mr. Malcolm's List is absolutely adorable it deserves more love. Zawea Ashton is magnetic and more people deserve to see that performance.

[@lauramcastro4897]

"You know what? A lot of people really didn't like [Jews]!" The books are about rich English people! They didn't like anyone! It is telling when an author is fine with downplaying all the nastiness that comes with Victorian characters in bodice reapers (the sexism, the classism, the fact their wealth is built on exploration and all the servants have shit working conditions) but we can't downplay racism. We need an explanation for THAT!

[@bettyp5669]

I mean would you really have wanted her to write about things she was not equipped to write about? I mean she literally says it.

[@outeremissary4438]

@@bettyp5669 I believe the point Laura is making is that she's already making passes that could be considered unrealistic and intensely ahistorical to craft her characters and her world, so her excuse winds up feeling thin. Racism was not the only bad thing in the world and sweet romance protagonists tend to be above a lot of other things they should realistically be in contact with/participating in. Singling out race as specifically the One Thing that is unrealistic or impossible to explain can come across as incredibly lacking in self-reflection at best and just kind of cruel at worst. Whether intentionally or not, it's the nature of a lot of these works to paper over historical issues in the name of a good story and it can become conspicuous what people think it isn't possible to include. I cannot speak to what is or isn't in books I haven't read, but my guess is that they skate over some ickiness if it's as light as the author represents it. By that logic it is absolutely possible to downplay more. The ethics of downplaying various things are a different conversation and one that I as a hater of historical fiction am not interested in getting into, but the possibility of glossing things one isn't interested in doing a heavy dramatic treatment of is there.

[@shadowmaster1313]

It's basically a joke about how many dukes there are in these stories that are young and hot vs historical reality (also I don't know what Quinn was talking about saying her characters aren't that lofty - of the four bridgerton girls alone there's only one marriage to a man without a title out of five).

[@bettyp5669]

@outeremissary i understand her point, and im sure the author is making excuses. I still think that telling someone to be more inclusive when they're making those excuses is a waste of time. She'll likely be disappointing in how she handles it anyway.

[@XxEvilTiggerxX]

You say that, but I read the Benedict book and oh boy is he downright horrible to Sophie. He infantilises, gaslights and blackmails her at every turn... Idk how we're meant to find it sexy, but I'm glad show Benedict is nothing like book Benedict because damn. And the book even manages to get around how unrealistic the Benedict/Sophie pairing would be due to classism by making her the (admittedly bastard) child of an earl who passes for a lady because she was brought up like one. So it's not like he's marrying the scullery maid from the east end of London so it's "ok".

[@saraaberdeen12]

Can you guys recommend historical TV shows with good black representation that isn't delusional.

[@tamarleahh.2150]

You might like Anne with an e

[@saraaberdeen12]

@@kennedythedford9102 thank you

[@booksvsmovies]

Interview with the Vampire (2022) is great

[@medealkemy]

​@@tamarleahh.2150 The storyline of Ka'kwet broke my heart though. Really put a damper on the last season and, by extension, the show.

[@samanthasmith61]

why are black people are so desperate and so obsessed with White culture of your oppressor and enslaver ? I don't get it

[@historydragonsandmagic]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. As I white person who enjoys period dramas and history I want to see more POC main characters but had also thought about the issues with portraying kings and queens who had a hand in the slave trade being portrayed in this way. You were able to give me the understanding of why I had a weird feeling about it. Your understanding of history and your thoughts on it are so important and I thought the Anne Boleyn show was really boring too. 😅

[@lets-all-love-lain]

I wish more people watched Harlots, if nothing else the music and dress is amazing

[@ぼじん-o5r]

please. the music and costumes are 100 times more jarring and tacky than bridgerton

[@lets-all-love-lain]

@@ぼじん-o5r at least it actually portrays the english working class

[@memorian8472]

@@lets-all-love-lain I guess beautiful costumes and attention to detail is tacky 🤣

[@mocotojam6767]

that's why i like the three musketeers by BBC, two of the main cast are mixed and that's where it ends. the show is great and they don't waste time trying to create some bs around it.

[@nataliacecyliarojas6219]

That show had some brilliant blind casting (although they give Porthos a solid background). As an Italian the fact that they casted Luke Pasqualino, confusing everyone when it was revealed that the actor was just...Italian was pretty funny.

[@mocotojam6767]

@@nataliacecyliarojas6219 lmao I didn't know that!!

[@kahkah1986]

The poc who were in Simon Basset's position were the children of slave owners in some way, and that is what makes the Bridgerton writers nervous to make it historically accurate. James Townsend, the Lord Mayor of London, was mixed race, descended from slave owners. Richard Beckford, who had a stutter and was probably closest to Simon Basset, was the child of a slave owner and an enslaved woman. Men were actively encouraged to marry Indian women of good families at this point as well, to cement the growth of the empire. Bridgerton just shows you the frothy side of all this, of course. The main problem, apart from this aspect, is that being a Duke or a Lord at this point was so intensely unequal; only a few property-owning men could vote, so few people had opportunities, I think it was gently addressed in the second season that only a tiny percentage of the population lived like the aristocrats in Bridgerton. Tbf, though, there were several royal families between Elizabeth I and the Georgian period as well, there were revolutions etc. which overthrew them and people of the time were horrified by Clive of India etc., they tried to reform the system to stop someone doing something like that again.

[@lichqueenmorri]

Dang I was just rewatching your Imperialism video with Star vs, She-Ra, and SU video and it's wild how much happier and healthier you look in this

[@idab9958]

All of this is exactly what's always bothered me about Bridgerton. Thank you for putting it into words.

[@ScenariosOfDrea]

I took an African American literature course taught by an excellent Professor who was also a black man, and I was surprised in that course I learned that lighter-skinned black people had owned darker blacks as slaves. So I think the idea of race-bending characters is fine; it might allow discussing of these issue of black aristocrats who were lighter skinned who owned darker blacks as slaves. So I think Queen Charlotte might deal with that possibly

[@jennymartin547]

My favourite thing about B is the hair! I love the mix of historical fashion and afro styles. I want more! Give me brads. Give me structures! Celebrated the beauty of natural hair techies and the ridiculous historical styles.

[@krow5099]

I’m so happy you are hitting the issues that I’ve felt for a long time now as a writer and a watcher of these shows

[@odettavonkasek358]

I’ve never seen Bridgerton, but I’m always here for your commentary on it. I’d also be interested to hear your opinion on Harlots. (Not Regency Era, but still a period piece set in England.)

[@alexandravalerious3274]

queen charlotte is speculated (based on court paintings of that era) to have african arab descent from her mother but this wouldve been in the 1400s so 300 years before she was born is when she possibly had a black ancestor

[@Blahgirl283]

I just feel like, we can choose to just enjoy the frivolity and fun of just seeing this Uber colorful period drama. As an audience member, I just choose to give them the benefit of the suspension of disbelief. It isn’t perfect, it’s aware it’s not perfect and while I agree focusing on the monarchy did make it a little distracting how British it was like “oh- these characters aren’t just fictional creations they’re fictions around historical figures?” I’m confident that most folks aren’t watching this show and now associating this with a history lesson. Clearly we just like seeing people of color look amazing in these costumes. It’s reminding me of the critiques around Hamilton and eventually the campaigns to have it cancelled in a way - and I don’t know at a certain point, what are we trying to accomplish… I wish success for the project, I agree they need to stop talking about the race thing and let it just be fun and exist bc they don’t do it well and it makes it harder to suspend disbelief. But for what it is, I’m glad to see these actors working and looking beautiful while doing it 🦋

[@Blahgirl283]

And getting to heal my relationship to romance by watching these sweeping romances that are just full of all the gooey and messy and sometimes beautiful things about love. I have to say, though some things didn’t hit, young charlotte and young George are the heart of this mini season- truly loved their commitment to their interpretations of these characters in youth and the best scenes were the ones we get of just them together. Those two actors absolutely rocked it.

[@Horus070]

I just finished Queen Charlotte yesterday… LOVED❤

[@dearyvettetn4489]

Keep coming back with that eye 👁️ 🎨 game plz! You look fabulous and the crown 👑 just took it all to another level 😍 Also, Colin Firth’s Pride & Prejudice being the best version…💯

[@kungawombabala9314]

This queen Charlotte show is way better than the main bridgerton show 😊❤

[@Itcouldbebunnies]

Like you, I'm also very excited to see Chevalier. Having said that, if Thomas-Alexandre Dumas Davy de la Pailleterie does not show up as a character in the show I will riot.🧐😄

[@julelune]

Trying to bring political commentary on race and racial inequality into this kind of show show feels like when strong female characters are written like if a generic male action movie protagonists was a pick me

[@captainoftheneverdie21]

Watched on Nebula, hearts

[@gabriellearrowood3210]

Sorry I'm late to the party, took me a while to get to the show. Now that I've watched both that and this amazing (as always) video, I'm POSITIVELY DYING to hear what you have to say about how "the great experiment" played out onscreen. I was frustrated before watching this spinoff for the exact same reasons you express here, and now... I'm more frustrated. 😅 So I'm wildly curious. And I can't thank you enough for articulating what I was trying and failing to explain to the gals at a bachelorette party last weekend - I am sharing this with them as soon as I save this comment. You're amazing. Truly the royalty of YouYube.

[@Lorenzogino]

people really slept on Iannucci's David Copperfield with Dev Patel.