QUEER SEDUCTION AS A GAME PLAN

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Күн бұрын

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@mrspreminger 4 ай бұрын

sapphic messy queer seduction as a game plan >>>>>> I just love the mess, drama, not knowing the line between sexual attraction and feelings, dubious morality, and all of the chaotic sapphicness. It’s just so much more fun than rooting for a goody-two-shoes character

@teacherCF Ай бұрын

You should definitely watch Fingersmith if you haven't yet

@dorkydancer 4 ай бұрын

I think queer subduction as a game plan is maybe a little cathartic because queerness is never really something that can be wielded to increase social standing or power.

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Amen! That's so true, and very interesting. Well put. Thank you!

@arthooboo2 4 ай бұрын

Thank you for this video! I'm glad you are back. My opinion about queer seduction as a game plan is not really an opinion. I like to watch it, clean or messy. And I very much agree with the predatory gay not being problematic: a character can be written as predatory or questionable or even just evil, and be at the same time gay. Unless they become the only queer character in media, that's fine.

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you!!

@HlumeloMatiwane 4 ай бұрын

My favourite is 'The Favourite'.

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

LOVE the Favorite

@XOISHTAR 4 ай бұрын

An interesting thing to consider with Gentleman Jack: yes, Lister was taking Walker’s wealth into account but not to clear any debts. The reason why Walker’s wealth is important is because it’s hers… meaning it’s not necessary for her to marry a man to not be impoverished (like Lister’s biggest and messiest ex was forced to do) and meant that Walker would be more likely to stay unattached legally which for Lister was a big deal because she didn’t want to be a mistress. It’s literally one of the biggest fights in season one and season two when Walker says something that makes it sound like she expects the relationship to be secretly transactional and Lister refuses the money because she doesn’t want it… she’d prefer to share their two separate wealth (because Lister doesn’t have debt at the start but goes into debt towards the middle/end and she’s more focused on getting out of trouble through shrewd business rather than Walker paying her as an aspect of their relationship) because her goal is having a wife… the way she talks about things at the beginning of season one is very similar to how marriage and courting was considered in Austen novels (look at how much they talk about their income and that makes them more or less eligible) but to Lister the reason why Walker’s money is attractive is because Walker wouldn’t be financially obligated to marry a man. They never outright lay it out like I did, but Lister hints at it throughout (especially when talking to or about her ex) and they attempt to use similar shorthand that would be familiar in something like Pride & Prejudice (where someone’s personal wealth makes them viewed more or less eligible, but isn’t the focus of the relationship that develops)

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Great point yeah! I went back and forth if I were to include Gentleman Jack or not. Since it is profoundly different and as you say - more like a "normal" costume drama, with courting, then Queer Seduction as a Game Plan. I chose to include it in the end cause I found so few contemporary sapphic examples I wanted to include the ones I found that had more layers than just love or desire. But its absolutely up for discussion. Thank you for your comment!

@annabeatrice19 4 ай бұрын

Honestly the point you made about gender and plausibility is interesting when you think about cultural differences. In french litterature, I can think of multiple famous stories of men seducing women for power. I wonder why...

@call_rickey 4 ай бұрын

5:02 it’s not even always establishing them as queer- I would argue that the idea of a man (presumably straight but doesn’t have to be) willingly having sex with another man is itself seen as the furthest, most perverse act one could engage in

@katarinasrose 4 ай бұрын

absolutely loved this video! i love that you touch on why morally dubious queer characters can be good representation ✨

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you!

@karolina5563 4 ай бұрын

I like my gays messy sue me!!! Amazing take as always, love the turtleneck as always

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Haha thank you so much

@ig5wp 4 ай бұрын

Love the video! One thought on White Lotus season 2: I am not sure we are supposed to think that Jack is actually Quentin’s nephew. There are clues in the show that Jack is actually sex worker hired by Quentin. I think Quentin calls him his nephew cover story to avoid raising suspicions about his plans/deceptions.

@obviouslyqueer 2 ай бұрын

No that's true! Thank you for pointing it out.

@teacherCF Ай бұрын

I think Fingersmith is one of the best sapphic seduction as game plan. The two main characters are both messy, imperfect queer women and the story has so many twists an turns. SPOILERS The fact that both women are seducing each other, and only one is aware of the other's intentions, makes it such an interesting examination of real feelings vs manufactured emotions

@justlimonika 4 ай бұрын

Read the title and immediately thought of Call my agent (french tv show) There's a messic sapphic seduction because of a tax audit- Anyway just a recommendation for whoever might be interested

@rosalial3869 4 ай бұрын

It was a great show. But I really didn’t like the way they treated the queer characters after season 1. I love Andrea’s personality but was completely confused over her sleeping with a man as she identified as a lesbian

@amyelizabeth1783 4 ай бұрын

LOVE that you have a lot of examples. I feel like so many video essayists just use one or two and assume their point is self-explanatory.

@miniaturephilosopher 4 ай бұрын

Always excited to see a new video from you! I'm not very far in, but I have to start my comment now because the idea of Nicola Coughlan is anything other than crazy hot makes me so mad. I know things have gotten a lot better in terms of how plus size women are perceived in media but there's still a long way to go. I love that you used this author's perception of plausibility to transition into talking about the misogyny inherent in the way women and men are portrayed in this sort of plotline. Women who use their sexuality as a tool are much less frequently portrayed as "likeable" (true even of straight women, even though that's outside the purview of this video.) Bringing up TV Tropes made me wish that we had a version of the site run by people who actually have the ability to read queer subtext. I find the site pretty interesting and amusing overall, but I agree that there is a baffling lack of media literacy when it comes to any queer tropes. Finally, I wanted to say about the inevitable discussion of "good representation," I completely agree with you. I love messy gays, I love gay drama and crime. The second season of Interview With the Vampire just ended, and I loved it. What shocks me is people online dissecting the plot and characters and relationships in a way that looks like they're trying to find the least problematic character so they know who to root for (or who to ship.) Like, girl, they eat people. They're evil monsters. Sit back and enjoy the mess. But I also love that you address the nuance of this issue-- whether or not representation is harmful to real people is dependent on so many contextual factors and can't be boiled down to "does this queer do bad things? bad representation." Thank you for always approaching these topics with nuanced analysis and without trying to determine the ultimate morally correct way everyone should feel about them. I love your videos!

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you so much for this well articulated and thoughtful comment! ❤️ Agreed on all points. It's wild that Nicola is spoken about that way, like she and Colin would be in different leagues? which is sooo out of touch with reality because actually Nicola is much hotter than him 😭 like that's not an analysis she made its just fatphobia

@shaym.1372 4 ай бұрын

@@obviouslyqueer She and Colin ARE in different leagues, as in she's way way out of his league

@miniaturephilosopher 4 ай бұрын

@@obviouslyqueer I didn't want to be mean but I also said to my partner when discussing this that she is way hotter than him!! Thank you for validating that 😂

@jacobandrewart 4 ай бұрын

I am genuinely grateful for the homepage algorithm bringing me to this channel. ❤

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you! The same! So glad to have you here!

@john2940 3 ай бұрын

I might be highly biased (I am literally rereading Six of Crows right now), but I didn’t read Jesper sleeping with the stableboy as transactional; I saw it as a distraction more than anything. He didn't do it to get access to a horse since he'd already gotten that through his lie. So, he didn't need to sleep with the stableboy and, if anything, it risked the mission. (I am 100% open to being wrong, though! This is an interesting discussion, and I am happy to participate.)

@obviouslyqueer 3 ай бұрын

In this video I only looked at the screen adaptation, in which the stealing is taking place directly after the hook-up, and clearly connected to it. I can't remember how the scene play out in the book, but I'm sure there's major differences!

@cathy9100 4 ай бұрын

the queen is back!

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

❤️

@leonis5664 3 ай бұрын

Very interesting video... Very recently i was searching for bisexual movies and i notice there's a lot of movies about a bisexual (mostly men) seducing their way to the top, and they're also usually lower class than their target and it got me thinking a lot about this, and your video pointing out how this is done for the sake of shocking the straight audience is very much a perfect explanation. As a bisexual tho, I can't help but notice this portrait is in line with the idea that bisexuality as a hedonistic, selfish manifestation of the morally gray characters is sometimes too close to many way ppl think about bisexuals irl (the too greedy untrustworthy bisexuals come to life). So while i do love to see messy bisexuals being calculating, im also a little bit tired of the trope, maybe because like it's not really for us bisexuals and the queer audience. Great video again! Made me think a lot

@adamnreader4599 3 ай бұрын

i was about to write this! thanks for putting my thoughts in words!

@JordanSullivanadventures 3 ай бұрын

I always love your videos! Been watching since your one on m/m shipping in queer women spaces. Your insight is really subtle and on-point. Totally agree with your pov about "problematic representation." I think calling something problematic is often a way of disengaging with the actual text and instead turning to sweeping moralizing.

@obviouslyqueer 3 ай бұрын

Thank you so much for this comment!

@henrylecoanet2160 3 ай бұрын

This has to be one of the best video essays I've watched on this platform. The rigour with which you analyse the material is astounding. The video is at once really dense and really clear. Thank you so much !

@obviouslyqueer 3 ай бұрын

God, thank you soo much for this comment

@albaniaalban 4 ай бұрын

Ey, a Swedish queer content creator? Awesome! Sometimes feel like the community gets a bit insular since acceptance is so high here (though the situation for transpeople is increasingly tenous). I feel that female desire - especially female sapphic desire - is generally sanitized. To me it seems that men, being seen as dominant/initiators, are allowed much greater freedom to express their desire - though gay men aren't allowed to express romantic longing to the same extent as their straight counterparts. I feel like these themes are maintained in queer culture as well to some extent in the u-haul lesbian/hopeless lesbian and the grindr boy stereotypes. You make some good points about what seems plausible to straight society. I do wonder if the comparatively high gay male rep might be related to how 'gay best friends' have been quite common in media targeted at straight women compared to lesbian women in media targeted at straight men?

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Yes! Är du svensk? Ett extra välkommen i så fall! Agreed on all of your points! If you are interested I've actually made two videos very connected to the thoughts you lifted. One on why gay men are so popular in mainstream media among women of all sexualities, and one of why lesbians are so unpopular in fandoms. They touch a lot on sanitation, history and other thoughts you mentioned! Just wanted to give a little ✨ self promo tip ✨ hehe. Thanks a lot for your comments and thoughts!

@albaniaalban 4 ай бұрын

@@obviouslyqueerTack, ska kolla in dem!

@altertopias 4 ай бұрын

My fav queer seduction as game plan is Dom and Darlene from Mr Robot. I would happily watch a whole spinoff of them.

@KckJohanna 4 ай бұрын

So happy to see a new video from you! Once again your analysis is spot on.

@jofridmar2844 4 ай бұрын

Finally another video from you! 😍

@ArtichokeHunter 4 ай бұрын

In terms of sapphic queer seduction, I wonder what you think of Delphine in Orphan Black. It does eventually play into the ~wlw are about love~ point you make, but initially Delphine is explicitly being used as a temptation (by a man she is also sleeping with) to seduce Cosima in order to gain her trust and access to her files. It definitely falls into the messy category, but has the additional factor of placing the agency of the seduction less on Delphine and more on Leekie, who is abusing his power over her both for his own sexual relationship with her and to use her sexuality to his benefit. I could see an argument that this is kind of infantilizing in the removal of agency, but I think it mostly serves to boost her likeability because the audience doesn't fully blame her for her actions. (Personally I still have trouble believing that this beginning can start a healthy relationship, and the opposing loyalties she has make her hard to trust, but I know a lot of other wlw love that pairing. I mean they are very attractive at the very least.)

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

I watched Orphan Black when the show aired, so... 11 years ago, so I did not remember this queer seduction as a game plan at all tbh. But I do remember really liking the show - and the queer rep in it. It sounds like a proper messy version, with a lot of different agencies and feelings involved. But I don't think having another person helping or orchestrating the seduction is infantilizing per se. In mentioned "Mary and George" this is absolutely the case as well. As long as the desire and sexuality of Cosima and/or Delphine is handling seriously I think it sounds "good". If one is to grade it haha. Thank you for your comment!

@ArtichokeHunter 4 ай бұрын

@@obviouslyqueer Yeah it definitely takes their desire seriously! I guess it's just an additional type of mess along the lines of the Angel Dust issue, where Delphine's initial "game plan" comes from her abuser.

@ArtichokeHunter 4 ай бұрын

Separate point, but it's kind of interesting to me that Orphan Black also has a straight version that's kind of inverted (it's the clone seducing the handler in the straight version, the handler seducing the clone in the sapphic version). Instead of the layer of abuse, though, there's pretending to be the person's partner. Which is maybe a whole other thing, like Frank in Rocky Horror (who doesn't seem to have a motive besides sex and fucking with people's heads). Anyway both of the Orphan Black ones are definitely the messy version and I do think the show views them differently; the woman seducing the man reads as very dominant and sexy and the man is like in awe of her, and feelings develop but it's focused initially on the sex. The sex is about control and pleasure, and it kinda continues that way even when there are feelings; sex is part of her gaining and controlling his loyalty. Whereas when it's two women, it's much gentler and there's a sense of feelings right away and it's not even obvious to the woman being seduced that she isn't the one doing the seducing. The loyalty is complicated, but there isn't any ongoing sense of control via sex.

@matze3974 4 ай бұрын

Finally you‘ve got over 10k subscribers and you actually bought a new microphone! Love it.

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Yes I promised I would at 10 K! 💕

@emilyjohnston7259 4 ай бұрын

I saw your video premiering and had to add to my list purely based on title I was not disappointed and and definitely subscribing very well put ❤️

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you so much! So glad to have you here!

@akisekurahara6678 3 ай бұрын

Another really insighful video and presented with timed humour. I really like the way you articulate or rather dissect this topic. It's really rare to have this kind of depth and still remain unbiased in the narrative. I'll be waiting for your next videos. Cheers. 🤗

@obviouslyqueer 3 ай бұрын

Thank you so much for this!

@RDawn 4 ай бұрын

Great video! Love how academic your vids feel compared to others'. No shade on them though!

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you! Exactly, everyone has different styles and I'm so glad you enjoy mine!

@HAVgiraffe 4 ай бұрын

i'm so glad I stumbled onto your video...youtube algorithm actually did its job. Subscribed and cant wait to see you later in the year with another banger!

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you and, well the same! Glad to have you here!

@opossumother 4 ай бұрын

i missed you! glad to see you again

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you!

@MythivarYaslana 4 ай бұрын

Just dicovered your channel. Caught your Premier. really enjoyed.

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

I'm so glad to have you here! Thank you!

@himignicest1571 4 ай бұрын

LETS GO im excited for this video omg i havent heard anyone talk about this before

@ajmalaika1287 4 ай бұрын

32:23 I feel like a reason for the pragmantic/ambigously bi label is a need for people to a)caterogires sexualities in clean neat boxes and so b) wanting to show, as you said, a character so ambitious that they are willing to sleep with people outside of their "box". But in that case why couldn't oliver just be a sex neutral ace who's not actually sexually attracted to anyone and just uses it as a tool (his "love" for Felix aside)

@Slaaverin 4 ай бұрын

I always love your videos they are so interesting and your personality is fun to watch thank you for all your hard work 💜

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you so much, that means a lot!

@drinkingcolaplayingfortnite 4 ай бұрын

honestly ur content so good scripted so interesting and having a high quality that I can wait as long as it need to produced. im already get a watch to all ur other videos. great work as always❤

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you so much :')

@dionis685 4 ай бұрын

Honestly, I was so hungry for your next take on things! This topic is fascinating! Wouldn’t have thought about it if not for your thorough analysis

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you!!!

@Jolezloba 4 ай бұрын

I loved the video, and you're a great video essayist!

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you :')

@stillyourgoth5841 4 ай бұрын

Wonderful video. Now to watch more...

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you!

@cajunlesbian61649 Ай бұрын

After finished boot camp, I went onto secondary training school. I had tried to get out of military and started processing, changed my mind and talked to new captain of school. She told me (and I was just 22 and naive) if I would become her gf, she would fix it so I could stay in. I couldn't even believe I said "Yes" but knowing I never would Bad me. Anyway, I never did, she got angry, put pressure on me to get caught being gay and eventually had me transferred to Ft. Monroe, VA, the toilet drain of military base. lol Oh, it happens. There *are* some women (and she was at least 10 years older) who will use their power to get a gf, which eventually means sex. Bad her. I never turned it in although years after I tried to find her location just to know where she ended up. Not successful. Ok, story over.

@ajmalaika1287 4 ай бұрын

I wonder if The Handmaiden/Fingersmith (movie/book) for a double messy category, without spoiling it, it is a beautiful sapphic mess but the main aim was to be friend the mistress and convince her to marry the gentlemen not to seduce/fall in love with her themselves

@moxigy 4 ай бұрын

i love your content sm

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you so much :')

@icaro_andstuff 4 ай бұрын

Yesss, love the video❤ and theme❤❤

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you!

@drinkingcolaplayingfortnite 4 ай бұрын

I have another example of this trope. im finally understood why I was so disgusted with "from the cold". DEAR QUEER PEOPLE DO NOT WATCH THIS I BEG U! IT IS FOR STRAIGHT AUDIENCE! I WAS BAITED😭😭😭 main character was spy-super hero thing. big part of the history was flashbacks from her first mission and first seduction plan. so hetero main character woman not only in final get what she wanted and killed father of that girl. she was playing with her feelings, other girl thought they were in relationships :). that girl was so happy and sweet about it OMYGOD I HATE IT. it was clearly mix of clean and messy queer seduction plan trope. it was like a split in a face. DON'T WATCH IT QUEERS. it traumatized me. I was not their audince. I don't think ill ever find something so horrible😂😂😂.

@nuxxy_ 2 ай бұрын

when breadtube says video essays are just wiki reads bruh ITS IS

@cocomuffin4666 4 ай бұрын

love this video!! please watch 'The Handmaiden' its my favourite film and the title of this video really reminded me of it ^^

@C.DWoods 4 ай бұрын

I don’t have anything to add. So here’s a comment for the algorithm.

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

Thank you, appreciate it!

@Zavob 2 ай бұрын

I'm like "where's killing eve in this?"

@hollo0o583 4 ай бұрын

Not sure if jasper fits.

@asterismos5451 3 ай бұрын

I love messy queer rep but 100% agree about how it has to be done carefully because like Hedwig and the Angry Inch is one of my favourite musicals but dear lord I hope the cis don't find it, it would fuel them way too much.

@JordanSullivanadventures 3 ай бұрын

Absolute comedic gold on your line "Are the viewers able to understand __by themselves__ that this character isn't a realistic portrayal of the everyday experience of the bisexual?" While playing Lestat on his family murder spree about to eat a woman he seduced 30 years prior. *Chefs kiss

@obviouslyqueer 3 ай бұрын

Hahah thank you thank you!

@lisi_ponurak 3 ай бұрын

“Us kids” are currently 22 years old 😅

@obviouslyqueer 3 ай бұрын

✨ youths ✨

@TheAnonymousuchiha1225 3 ай бұрын

As someone who was born in 2002, I’m stuck in 2020…

@violetjade64 4 ай бұрын

iwtv mention :D

@theorem7965 4 ай бұрын

"I want my gays in prison" should be a t shirt 💅🏽

@obviouslyqueer 4 ай бұрын

"I want my gays in prison (affectionate)"

@clumsyninja925 4 ай бұрын

Gay villains aren't new at all though.

@rebelkallus 4 ай бұрын

TYRELL??!

@ihartdiamonds 2 ай бұрын

One of the most interesting examples I've seen of queer seduction comes from the anime Banana Fish. The main character Ash seduces multiple other men throughout the story, including his love interest Eiji initially before starting to genuinely fall for him, in order to get what he wants. There's even one scene where he allows himself to be gang r*ped as part of a larger plan. The other characters describe him as being this sort of evil incubus/succubus. Because of this, as an audience we are primed to think that Ash is always in control of every situation and 10 steps ahead of everyone else. Later on in the show Ash is actually r*ped and at first we expect him to either use the situation to his advantage or escape from it, but he doesn't. He can't. He goes back to just being a scared little kid and a victim. It humanizes him in the most heartbreaking way. I really appreciate how subversive this use of the trope is; instead of showing sexuality as a weapon, it shows that it's a double-edged sword. People who seduce others are only able to do so because their body is oversexualized, and in order to use your body as a tool, you have to be detached from it. (It's also worth noting that in all of these scenes, except the one where he kisses Eiji, Ash takes a submissive role. And the reason he's sexualized so much is because of his feminine appearance. It's a good commentary on the more common trope of women as the 'honey trap' which is mentioned a few times in this video.)

@obviouslyqueer Ай бұрын

That's very interesting! Thanks for the addition!