Queercoding in Disney Villain Songs | Dreamsounds

[@chaotic_one3758]

producers: We'll gay code our villains and baddies so the kids will think that the gays are bad!! gays: *thinks villain are cool, sexy and funny* producers: 0 . 0

[@miamafalda1118]

Producers: Let's make female villains sexy so the kids know that female sexuality is bad! Lesbians: *think female villains are hot* Producers: *suprised Pikachu face*

[@chaotic_one3758]

trust me there's some villains i really liked as a kid, but goddamn, little me loved jade from victorious, not that she's a villain, just a bit unlikeable

[@juliencastle2953]

I think even most straights thought all these positive things about queer-coded vilains so it was a big failure from producers wanting to associate it with negativity lol! :)

[@danatrick4868]

Honestly, a lot of Disney villians such as Hades and Ursla are more likeable personality-wise than the heroes and princesses.

[@alejandrainfante5388]

Honestly, as a kid I've never realized that they were gay-coded. I just cared about the story and their character in general.

[@roarasaurusrex3418]

I personally loved Ursula, I thought she was fabulous and likable, and many other share this sentiment. If Disney was using queercoding to make Ursula unlikable, they did a bad job, lol.

[@cascharles3838]

Considering Howard Ashman was on the job, I don't think his (and Alan Menkin's) intentions were bad, whatever the beliefs of the disney higher ups are

[@marshmallowvampire8503]

I personally think they added lots of movement and personality to the villains to #1) show they feel their in power (when one is in power and confident, they're mood is up, and that makes them both not so scary but still threatening... I mean, villains). 😏Also they have to seduce they're victims somehow (just saying), and #2) sometimes pure evil, anger, and seriousness is too boring. So, as he mentioned in his other queercoding vid, it could/couldn't be intentional😊. I'm not denying the theory, but I think crafting a villain is an art all on its own, so there could've been lots of thought, lots of elements, and many different intentions coming together here.😊 It's cool to think about

[@marshmallowvampire8503]

I don't even know if they were trying to make her unlikable.🤔 It's a good theory and everything, but the parallels could easily be chance.😊 I also think movie producer know how to make a movie over all good, so making their villains not bland and boring, instead able to draw your ears and eyes is smart.

[@DiabloSandwich59]

To your point the only thing that makes Ursula seem inherently queer is how theatrical she is. Theatricality transcends orientation.

[@maxskellington910]

I really don't think Ursula's queercoding was done out of any malice or bad intent. Based on the origins on her queercoding, it was as a way to actively enhance her character and make her more likeable, or at least, enjoyable to watch. Ashman and Menkin were pretty creative w/ her. Also I'm pretty sure Menkin himself WAS queer.

[@e.nataliareyeshdez.3557]

Fun fact: Ursula's voice actor for the latinoamerican dub was a drag. They spotted this guy in a drag battle and once they heard his voice (can't remember if he was singing a Disney song or what) he was offered to voice Ursula. Instead of their real name, the VA's drag name appears on the credits

[@araxx020]

His Drag persona name was Serena Olvido and his real name was Angel Garza, he was also an actor in some telenovelas, he was mostly cast as the stereotype flamboyant gay man; It is said that the dubbing director for the film in Mexico offered him the role after seeing him in a musical performance in a bar in the Zona Rosa (queer people spot in Mexico city) as his drag persona, but he had to hide that he was gay from the American executives , so he used his drag name for the movie credits instead of his real name. Very little info is know about him sadly, some say he die form HIV in 2005 in los angeles.

[@TimidIzzy]

I'm going to be honest, I never read I've Got a Dream as feminizing the characters to make them less of a threat, but more of giving them relatable hobbies lots of the audience might have. Very few of the hobbies occurred to me as particularly feminine ones, but maybe that's because to me they don't have to seem feminine. Lots of interior designers, bakers and the like are men. To me it read less of "these men aren't threats because they're feminine" and more of "people might be scary, but they're just that. People. Just like you."

[@justsomeonepassingby408]

That's what I thought, too. Not sure what that song has to do with "femininity", in fact, I didn't think that at all when I watched the movie. It just shows that they are people who have dreams in life, and, like you said, are relatable and have hobbies the audience can relate with. To me, that makes them more human in my book.

[@leftoverlemons930]

I always thought it was comedy made “and then the opposite is true”. Think of it like a cute baby kitten with a gun. Those things aren’t really what you’d expect, so it can be shocking. The comedy is done with both how the characters react to it and how it’s set up. It’s not poking fun at the stereotypes themselves, more the contrast between the audiences expectations and the outcome that occurs.

[@qweed54]

Yeah no I’m pretty sure this is a both situation. Femininity makes them less threatening, also the majority of the audience is traditionally female.

[@miticaBEP07]

I always saw it as a display of nonviolence. “We aren’t murder machines, we have other ambitions and don’t like to hurt people”.

[@francescop.c.3298]

@@qweed54 Nah, that's reaching

[@prezdabeast6264]

i'm so glad you included "see how i glitter" as an example, i see you fellow lindsay ellis fan

[@YukiTheOkami]

But its not only the villans "When does my reflection Show who i am inside" Looking at the song from an trans perspective it is clear. Thats why i hated the originals mulan sequel because she was so overly feminine again.

[@DreamsoundsVideo]

That's actually the subject of my next video! Stay tuned :-)

[@partiya_vaginodictatury_Aliyi]

I always thought that their more flamboyant and extravagant behaviors make villains sexier and more sassy and cool, and I even sometimes forgived some of their wrong doing XD sorry Disney looks like it didn't worked on me :P

[@megatennepster3833]

Helps that "Evil is Sexy" is a thing

[@WillScarlet16]

Most Disney villain songs have this theme of self-love written into them, either explicitly or not. People love villain songs because they love watching someone proclaiming "I love myself even if all of you think I'm nasty" - I think everybody wants to be able to say that at some point. But especially LGBT people for the last hundred years. It's definitely there in the Divine/John Waters movies - "I don't care if you hate me, I'm going to do this number anyway"

[@MoaccyrK]

I like this. If I can add my own thoughts to this analysis, I always thought that the bandits' song from rapunzel was to show off that there's more to them than people know about, the point is not that their sensitive traits make them less treatening as much it is to make them more relatable and make them more tridimensional with the short time we have with those characters. At least that's what I could gather from just watching that scene a handful of times. I do, however, think that everybody displays "masculine" and "feminine" traits regardless of gender, so this belief of mine paints a bit of my own analysis, admitedly.

[@bird2034]

Yeah, personally I saw it as “they like the same things you might, they’re people too!”

[@jedispartan4066]

The bar song in Tangled shows them that they shouldn't judge someone because they're scary or rough. It parallels how Flyn Ryder isn't just a badguy because he's a thief. I don't think they trust them because they're effeminate, they trust them because the whole point of the movie is Rapunzle having an inner dream

[@adriencarver5722]

That bitch slap is the best part of Jafar's song

[@KidBohemia]

You probably know this, but Alan Menken wrote dozens of songs for Jafar. There was a song called “Humiliate the Boy,” and another song called “Why Me?” There was also a song called “Ends of the Earth.” The song was supposed to go near the end of the film, where Jafar now sings his reprise of “Prince Ali.” The filmmakers decided that it was just too weird to have Jafar sing a song after an entire movie in which he hadn’t sung a single lyric. So Alan Menken came up with a solution. It would make more sense if Jafar sang a reprise of a song that we already had heard. By taking this theme and inverting it for the sake of mocking Aladdin, it became more believable that Jafar was singing all of a sudden. Incidentally, the original song “Prince Ali” had lyrics by Howard Ashman. The reprise was written after Howard had died, so those lyrics were written by Tim Rice. This is the only case in that movie where both lyricists wrote words for the same piece of music.

[@DreamsoundsVideo]

All true - my video on the many changes made to Aladdin is coming soon!

[@KidBohemia]

I look forward to watching that!

[@lin_darrow]

Your videos are so great--both accessible and erudite, academic and culturally engaged. Just really excellent work all around. Can't wait to see your viewcounts go up as your channel grows!

[@tangent94]

how on earth did Europe manage to make *music* an antisemitic thing?

[@lichqueenmorri]

because it's Europe "if you have something make it antisemitic" was required to be recognized as a country until 1937

[@kaiyodei]

everything is antisemitic, being against circumcision is antisemitic

[@lillyb2230]

Credo nello Stato Laika While I have only been to a church once or twice, I do know that we sing a lot at my synagogue. There are even chanting marks, in the Torah.

[@timl1977]

I believe Divine became the inspiration for Ursula, in part because John Waters was obsessed with Captain Hook as a child, and lyricist Howard Ashman, being from Baltimore knew Waters and Divine, steered the Ursula character in that direction. Ashman did have a very particular idea about the "Poor Unfortunate Souls" song, her hired actress Elaine Stritch for the voice of Ursula then let her go because he didn't like how she was preforming it, before finally settling on Pat Carroll for the voice role. But when the movie was released Ursula ended up being one the most popular characters in the film, and... coincidentally... openly gay supervising animator Andreas Deja took over lead animation duties of Disney's next 3 villains, Gaston, Jafar, and Scar... So this became kind of a trend at Disney in the 90's, while they were technically the villains, they were still some of the most popular movie characters of the time along side the Tim Burton Batman villains, like Jack Nicholson's Joker and Michele Pfieffer as Catwoman... and while Tim Burton was an animator at Disney in the early 80's he shared a cubical with animator Andreas Deja, they worked on The Black Cauldron together

[@Jane155-x6d]

Only recently I started to noticed this stereotypes in animation. I guess I lived in a relativly sheltered and accepting enviorement so for example, I knew who jewish people were but wasn't aware of the stereotype (big nose, greddy, all that jazz) and never associated the two. So this is really interesting and enlighting! You make very informative and straight to the point videos!

[@soda_pop9446]

*Honestly I loved all the villains so Disney has failed-*

[@WillScarlet16]

Honestly I think a lot of heroic Disney characters could be queercoded just as easily as the villains - take Genie, Sebastian or Lumiere for example. Hell, some of them even dressed in drag like Robin Hood, who, incidentally, was voiced by a gay man who was known for his drag roles.

[@chewychibi03]

Ahhh I’m obsessed with your channel. It’s going to take off in no time ♥️

[@DreamsoundsVideo]

Thank you so much for your kind words 😻

[@casir.7407]

ive recently relistened almost all brecht-weill musical content from spotify as i could (the threepenny opera recording with raul julia is a particular gem) and i remember thinking, with piraty jenny, how similar it sounded to a disney song i couldnt place my finger on. it was "unfortunate souls", it seems -even the title seems like something from a brecht play. on another note -i dont know if you personally consider it disney -weill's musical influences are even more clear in "the nightmare before christmas". danny elfman himself mentioned kurt weills music as an inspiration to him

[@jdprettynails]

Oh my fiancé and I ADORE that performance of Gaston!

[@kerryannemacdonald8893]

Disney: Hate the villain Me: *Love the villain, got it*

[@ManubibiWalsh]

You forgot about Shiny.

[@peterbernhardt4429]

Read the original script and stage directions for "Peter Pan," The playwright includes a sentence that says something like "There is a touch of the effeminate in all pirates." Barrie queer coded Hook at least 40 years before Disney animated him. Isn't it likely that some of the people who made the movie had seen a stage version as children? Its production was often revived.

[@kaiyodei]

the song isn't that women are objects to Gaston? another trophy and conquest, but fellow men are for bonding and hanging out with? wasn't Jafar going to have a song? went though 3 songs before stealing Prince Ali?

[@SoundSpeed99]

Can't people be confidant without being plastered as gay. !? What's wrong with this world?!

[@ayoacatlcincinrojas829]

I read one of the patrons as selin Dion and was like omg no way🤔🤔 wait never mind

[@joshinese5548]

it's strange that your videos don't have as many comments. they're great!

[@juliewedam9826]

Such a great analysis and fun video! Thank you for your efforts! Fan from Belgium

[@JRAndrach]

Great video! Wish it were longer.

[@altarush]

Men who are gentle and sensitive aren’t gay. Or, women who are tough, muscular and good at sports aren’t gay.

[@DreamsoundsVideo]

I never said they had to be. When discussing sexuality and gender from a historical perspective, though, it's important to not ignore the stereotypes and prejudices that have largely informed the public's perception of LGBTQ individuals in many cultures.

[@HDcreature]

This is true in real life, but as a literary/story device the stereotypes are notably used to show "gay" characters

[@Cristina-Ortiz]

iilluminaughtii brought me here and I'm so glad she did 💜

[@axiopoenos3901]

The quote from Divine you edited out literally right before the similar posing to Ursula: "Kill everyone now! Condone first-degree murder! Advocate cannibalism! Eat shit! Filth are my politics! Filth is my life!" wow, what irrational latent "homophobia" could have possessed Disney to portray Ursula as a villain fashioned after Divine?

[@stevebarlowe6588]

Even as a child, i saw gaston with some kind of gay feeling/tension the musical number really pushed a bi or gay quality to gaston.

[@SoundSpeed99]

He's just full of his self... that's...literally it he thinks hes the best and only the best gets to marry bell.

[@AndromedaCripps]

I know Pirate Jenny from Judy Collins’ version!!

[@seren.a3633]

just stumbled over your channel and i like your videos and the amount of information you're giving us is incredible. but please stick to one medium at a time: please don't talk over something totally differently written. this makes my brain so fuzzy

[@hurududu29]

I really liked this video, and all the other content on your channel. It is well thought out, and impactful. However I had a difficult time reading the written slides while there was a different script being spoken. I can imagine that if I struggled and could not focus with this as some who is not dyslexic, or even a slow reader, this would be a limiting factor for many. In the future, might I recommend reading the content that is written, and including community generated subtitles on your videos?

[@felixflax19]

Sydney Lekei I pause the video to read the text and then keep watching

[@scar78217]

Kinda cringe that the first mention of Divine in this video calls him a drag queen. He totally was, but more importantly he was a fearless actor and very relevant dance music artist of the time whose music actually got radio play in some places, even here in South Texas.

[@StarLee_]

4:58 funny how me, a German Pansexual understands everything and finds nothing lgbtqia+ in the song

[@DreamsoundsVideo]

Admittedly, this video is pretty old and I don’t think I made my point as succinctly as I could. I did another video recently (The Lesbian Mickey Mouse Café) that talks more about how Pirate Jenny (and the whole Threepenny Opera) fit within Berlin LGBTQ culture. Long story short, it didn’t address LGBTQ issues directly, but there was a relationship between people taking agency over their bodies and LGBTQ culture of the time, in addition to the shared musical aesthetics to Threepenny Opera and what appeared in gay bars of the time

[@StarLee_]

@@DreamsoundsVideo oh ok

[@Diaryofawerewolvesbf]

Ursula does still scare me but, shes got style~

[@cooldaddyjames2814]

No villain song for Jafar? You’re only second rate SLAPS & you know it.

[@bexniccals3686]

When Did The Male Voice Over Guy Get Hacked And Stolen From By The Current Female Voice Over Girl Because It Doesn't Sound Like The Same Exact Person To Me All I Hear Is Two Very Distinctly Different People

[@bird2034]

gastonk

[@kaiyodei]

make vainglory greedy antics good again

[@ewout2763]

I don't know man, I found Jafar a bit farfetched

[@rebeccawest1912]

What was that sublininal message at 6 30? I didn't catch it. X

[@snailseer8275]

It reads "This tension is somewhat played with in the 2017 remake with LeFou being written (albeit vaguely) as gay"

[@rebeccawest1912]

@@snailseer8275 Thank you. x

[@Naiadryade]

Here's a KZbin trick: with a video paused, press the "," and "." keys to go back and forward frame by frame. This is how I read stuff like that.

[@claracorrell3130]

7:28

[@leeladebris2254]

I don't know if i agree with this