Rachel Reeves: Britain’s New Chancellor

Rachel Reeves is our new Chancellor of the Exchequer How would an incoming Labour government fund the NHS? How does Reeves and Starmer's relationship compare to Blair and Brown? What is the experience of being a woman in the world of banking and politics?
Recorded pre-election.
Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer Rachel Reeves joins Rory and Alastair as they discuss all this and more.
00:00 Pre-interview message
01:03 Intro
02:23 Let’s go back to the Labour win landslide in 1997
06:49 Upbringing and parents
10:45 Labour of the 1970s being apart of your DNA
14:18 What will you do differently from your predecessors?
18:55 How do you remain relatable during an election?
20:34 Does the outlook of the country not daunt you?
21:32 Decoupling from China
30:30 Relationship with Keir Starmer and why it works
34:00 (Not) Rejoining the Customs Union
39:08 What do you want your legacy to be?
41:20 How will you fund the NHS?
47:40 How would you grow the economy?
50:40 What is your medium to long term approach?
58:00 How can you persuade women that politics is a good place to be?
01:02:35 What do you want the public to know about you?
01:04:22 Rachel outro and exit
01:05:09 Debrief
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[@Josh-iw3md]

Big respect to both Rory for the heated challenge on customs union and health inflation, but also to Rachel for how she handled it. These kind of moments are exactly why this podcast is so interesting.

[@TheDandonian]

Finally, a proper debate. This is what I want from the leaders debates. Two people fighting over what possible.

[@Zazzri]

This was excellent. Too often media just give politicians an easy ride in interviews and by grilling her, it’s actually won me over to show her resilience and intelligence in a way a soft fluffy typical media interview wouldn’t.

[@alst4817]

Typical media interviews are sometimes soft, often adversarial, but almost always shallow as hell. This is less shallow which is a big improvement

[@adam7802]

I agree.

[@tristanp1983]

100% - whilst it got a bit tetchy at times, I'm glad the interview gave the space (and time) for Reeves to move away from some of the rehearsed lines and I found myself much more impressed with her than I had been previously when I'd only seen her using the same pre-written talking points again and again. All hail the longform interview.

[@billybullymore83]

It was a very easy ride. Why won't she increase taxes on wealth to pay for investment/public services. She's a committed right winger

[@tylerberks2756]

@@billybullymore83because wealth taxes in most its forms aren’t sustainable

[@amalia-thevoice]

I think as the future chancellor she should have been able to answer Rory's question better than having to resort to "I wont be lectured by you" defensive response followed by the scripted non-answers.

[@adamps16]

I’ve never voted labour. The reason being I just don’t trust them economically. This detailed interview and the way it was conducted with challenge but space to allow Rachel to speak has won me over. I think I just might vote labour this time. Rachel knows her brief.

[@lamarnolan6727]

Rory's honestly really makes this podcast such a refreshing listen.

[@George-gf6lx]

Although she was allowed to totally confuse the customs union vs the single market. She clearly didn’t know the difference and was allowed to brush over it.

[@Vandel96]

@@George-gf6lxJust playing devils advocate here, but she could have purposely responded that way because the general public doesn’t know the difference between them (and doesnt want misinformation to spread)

[@billybullymore83]

Soft ball questions, little probing of her very right wing policies. Very uninformative

[@henryburton6529]

@@billybullymore83 "very right wing" who are you? Karl Marx

[@billybullymore83]

@@henryburton6529 she's continuing austerity, not even ruling out further cuts whilst opposing tax rises on wealth.

[@InfernalPasquale]

God it is so lovely seeing a normal, intelligent person in politics

[@castlebell3275]

Its great to hear the chancellor having some idea what the job involves. Clearly a intelligent lady. A great debate.

[@isaacscott1832]

I can't believe there wasn't a joke about Rory importing pot from Holland.

[@DoriZuza]

The other type of pot 😅 It hadn’t crossed my mind

[@norarafferty4702]

Rachel…safe hands. But NOT boring. Actually very engaging.

[@david030491]

😂😂😂

[@kathchandler4919]

​@Millie.com232no Millicent YOU need to stop trolling 😅

[@paulkrugman359]

comments about her 'lack of personality' are irrelevant, she's the chancellor of the exchequer and it is her job to be an intelligent and competent economist, I couldn't care less about whether she talks in a manner that might be more appealing. I feel as though this requirement of 'personality' for cabinet minister is a bit American and presidential. People also don't seem to like her aggresiveness in the comments, she was getting grilled by Rory over multiple questions, it's a bit bewildering to see people be alienated by some combatitive debate in response.

[@georgesotiriou7051]

Not yet she's not

[@BCync]

@@georgesotiriou7051damn why you telling Paul krugman otherwise

[@dazzle4708]

I think that’s really being quite unfair. Maybe we’re looking at different comments but the fundamental issue people are catching onto is that frankly she just does not seem to be particularly intelligent or competent, which is a real concern when we’re talking about the position of Chancellor in a critical economic moment. It was all rehearsed, all simplistic, she displayed no ability to think on her feet or discuss the larger problems thoughtfully. She’s objectively in a bind - unable to raise taxes, unable to borrow, unable realistically to aim to grow the problem away, while public services, defence, and industrial investment demand more money than ever. Rory is completely right that she needs to be able to acknowledge this and take the line ‘it’s a mess we inherited and we’ll do what we can, but it will be tough and you have to bear with us’ - that however is not her message at all; her message is ‘growth, growth, growth and it will be fine’ and that’s not enough. She can avoid being nailed to the wall on this during the campaign if she wants I suppose, but if she doesn’t have a great plan that she’s secretly hiding somewhere, she’s going to get a reality check and it will be messy.

[@LRG246]

@@dazzle4708 great summary

[@SolarMumuns]

Well said

[@kicorse]

Of course Rory is right about health inflation, but any party leadership that publicly acknowledged that would take a huge electoral hit. The most he could hope for was that she would acknowledge that things are going to be tough for a while, and that Labour aren't going to wave a magic wand and make the country's problems go away. In fairness, she did that.

[@martinsalharriso2cou]

Totally agree. Unfortunately very few of the electorate are as intelligent as Rory so won't understand the detail. Also he doesn't have to worry about a tiny soundbite being played back by the opposition. Plus of course she cant blame a big chunk of the current mess on the true evil of Brexit. They've got to win first and then start rebuilding. So with that caveat that Labour cant currently be completely honest about what they really think about Brexit, I thought she came across as pretty trustworthy which is what the UK had been lacking for way too long!

[@astalavista_84]

If your “plan” is UK economic growth is going to be consistently better than the US, when historically that hasn’t happened since WW2, that is basically the same as waving a magic wand and making your problems disappear - its a fairy tale. Not only does she say that, which Rory is rightly incredulous about, she also doesn’t give any details about “how” a Labour government will make that happen.

[@DomCAFC]

Rachel Reeves… fair play 👏 Great interview this, robust exchanges but respectful and genuine.

[@iainmackenzieUK]

She's got balls to accept the invitation to sit with these two. I didn't know her that well before this but she now has my vote.

[@nickooooooohtj]

I look forward to her running the ship. I think she balanced giving off very competent and reassuring vibes whilst also not saying anything disasterous about NHS funding, EU relationship, or immigration that would be seized upon by labour critics. Hopefully she can do what needs to be done to tackle those major structural, inescapable issues in power.

[@Vidya_Swifty]

I've got completely hooked onto your podcasts. Right now I'm paused 22.55 mins into this episode and am riveted by the conversation going on mainly between Rory and Rachel and it already is the best interview done till now. I'll post again after watching the whole interview.

[@ChristianMilesOnLine]

I thought Rory was really good in this interview - asked the right questions and as ever well informed and knowledgeable

[@nickevans444]

It was very clear immediately from her eyes, and the way she looked at Rory Stewart, or rather didn’t and preferred to look at Alastair Campbell instead, that Rachel Reeves was on the defensive, and wary of Rory. Not surprising at all that she should feel vulnerable. Under the circumstances, I thought she handled herself reasonably well. But the contrast between her scarcely veiled hostility towards Rory and her obvious friendliness towards Alastair grated on me, nevertheless. But definitely, if achievable, the follow up should be a similar interview with Jeremy Hunt, current Chancellor and, prior to that, long term Secretary of State for Health (later “and Social Care”), to explore his suggested solutions. Quite apart from having been left an economy in a good and improving state, by the outgoing Major Government, last time there was an incoming Labour Government, wasn't the first thing that Gordon Brown did, at a time when prices were a good deal lower than they were not long afterwards, was to sell a good part of our gold reserves? And wasn't it true that, in their first term of office, Labour did very little, certainly on the Economy, to alter anything the previous Tory Government had done?

[@nlewin5072]

You weren't the only one to immediately notice how she wanted to talk to Alistair more than Rory.

[@haylauh643]

I wish Rory was like this with everyone refreshing some strong push back

[@Fontaine_de_Can]

Extremely impressed with our future Chancellor of the Exchequer!

[@georgesotiriou7051]

My prediction. Will not last a year.

[@Fontaine_de_Can]

@@georgesotiriou7051 That’s better than 49 days…

[@ANEEAMA]

@ georgesotiriou7051, I predict Gordon Brown May replace her after one year like David returned as foreign minister because there is no alternatives.

[@martinevans3863]

​@@georgesotiriou7051My prediction, will last at least 5 years, maybe 10 with a 2nd term. Watch and see!

[@My_Name_Is_Brian]

​@@ANEEAMAI am happy to make a wager with you that that won't happen! 😂

[@MrSpasticdancer]

fantastic long form discussion. i feel like i have to watch this podcast to be properly informed.

[@DavidBrown-ts2us]

I love that Rory picked up on her sounding scripted, it's the first thing I thought once the personal introduction was out the way. She even sounds like Starmer the way she pronounces certain words.

[@WS12658]

She was definitely on a script to a large degree, but you can't blame her for that in the lead up to a GE. Plus, you want your Chancellor to be a good economist, I couldn't care less if she's a great podcast guest and can tell funny, novel anecdotes.

[@DavidBrown-ts2us]

@WS12658 my issue is that when someone is scripted like that you don't feel like you're speaking to a person and it doesn't feel honest. And when he challenged her, she went into evasion/whataboutery

[@DavidBrown-ts2us]

@WS12658 the Angela Raynor interview on the other hand was much better, she didn't come off as scripted at all, she was very much shooting from the hip and she came off very well as a result

[@SplashTasty]

thats called being a shadow cabinet minister pre election, genius.

[@DavidBrown-ts2us]

@@SplashTasty it doesn't have to, Raynor sounded like an actual human with her own opinions.

[@richardhasler4795]

Still such a mature, incisive, intelligent and refreshing podcast!

[@UTubeSL]

Prediction: Alastair found the tussle amusing!

[@alexandertomlinson6618]

Fab interview. Rory excellent questions of the EU and growth! Good solid debate and exactly what voters need to listen too....

[@bitandbob1167]

Definitely a great interview. Really really enjoyed. I find it so interesting that politicians ARE willing to do these - why can’t things like this replace Sunday Kuennsberg rubbish etc

[@SandMan_86]

Because Labour would be polling better.

[@BillSeddon]

it's really interesting to hear about the new Chancellor's background and her thinking on some key issues. She clearly has a good grasp of her brief and whilst I have not found her to be up to now the most captivating of speech makers, it gives me confidence that she will perform her new role well. Great podcast.

[@geoffarnold8723]

The best place to see indepth interviews on British Politics.

[@scouseladybird5190]

I didn't feel she answered the questions at all well, if she answered them at all. Sadly, I was left feeling she was wishing and hoping for it all to turn out right rather than there being a clear plan. I'd heard such positive things about her and was left disappointed 😞

[@KarenGoddard-wp3ix]

I think these podcasts are fantastic. They give a greater insight to politicians as people, which I think is really important. I wish the mainstream media outlets would do something similar to reach more of the general public. With regards to this interview with Rachel Reeves, it is good to see someone with the right credentials taking on the role of chancellor. In terms of the ambitions for economic growth, which of course is the starting point for improving things for the whole country, I think that she doesn’t seem to have considered that the last Labour government was successful in growing the economy (until the global financial crisis) because it was able to take full advantage of the benefits from being in the single market which started in 1992. My biggest beef with the Labour Party policies is regarding the introduction of VAT on public school fees. In an ideal world, there would not be a requirement for private schools, as everyone would have access to excellent schools which enabled all young people to thrive. We should invest in education as one of our fundamental key policies, raising tax if necessary to do it. The labour policy for private education will make it most challenging for the middle income people who have worked hard and made great sacrifices to give their young people a better education. This generation of young people has been the hardest hit from austerity. Many middle income people, who already pay tax for state education and who save the country £6,000 per young person out of the state education system, will be forced to make very difficult decisions on whether they manage to pay the further increased fees. An influx of young people returning to state education will stretch the current resources even further, making things worse, not better. I really wish that they would rethink this policy.

[@elnumerounobohsman]

Really get the feeling that she agrees with Rory on customs union but the party line is no to that and she has to stick to it

[@drdreel5559]

Rory, with respect, I get your passion for customs union but this may be a rare field in which you might delve deeper. There are benefits and drawbacks. 1. Notably, the way the EU structures its customs unions with third countries differs from *the EU* customs union. The EU has never made the common commercial policy (its external trade deals) available to third countries and you appear to be labouring under a misapprehension on this point. It is held distinct by the EU, in third-country-EU customs unions, from the customs union itself. And it is unlikely that they would wish to do that with a competitor state. Why would they want to allow a large competing economy to piggyback on their trade deals and milk them dry because the competitor can undercut them on regulation? That is not in the member state interest. There has been discussion of looking into different arrangements with Andorra and San Marino on this front. But the UK is not a microstate. So a customs union means the UK is bound to apply the tariffs set by EU trade deals on imports into the UK (the defining feature of a customs union is a common external tariff on all imports into the customs union area), but is NOT guaranteed that British EXPORTS will be treated the same way as EU exports by the third countries. They may be, they may not be. That is up to the third country. This is a problem that has bedevilled Turkeys partial customs union with the EU, with some EU trade partners refusing to extend equivalent trade benefits to Turkey. Overall, would it be beneficial to the UK? It's hard to say without anyone doing serious analysis, including the political risk of third countries refusing to reciprocate. 2. There are alternatives to customs union, such as customs facilitation agreements, that with a degree of goods regulation alignment can provide substantially the same level of cross-border process smoothing as a customs union would, and your interest seems to be more on the processes than on the trade deal impacts of customs union. Switzerland, which does not have a customs union with the EU, has very deep customs facilitation agreements with the EU that allow for effectively seamless cross border goods transit. The tradeoff is in regulatory alignment. The level of coverage of this in UK media was staggeringly poor and effectively non-existent, so I'm not surprised it hasn't been featured in debates, but customs union IS NOT the only way to address border processes and alternatives have not been adequately and objectively explored. Reeves, incidentally, is correct on the veterinary agreement. It is one form of process that would appreciably affect cross border trade (not least because a non-food lorry waiting behind a food lorry is a delay for BOTH lorries). For you to dismiss the point out of hand suggests a lack of granular understanding of the issues. 3. As things stand, membership of a customs union with the EU would prevent the UK from ever joining the single market. Why? Because as things stand, the only mechanism to join the single market clearly available is the EEA Agreement. During the Brexit negotiations the EU did not offer any other route and actively declined to offer the UK the Swiss approach of partial/sectoral single market participation. But to join the EEA Agreement any country that is not a member state must join EFTA. To join EFTA, even if the EFTA member states were amenable, the EFTA agreement requires countries to sign up to EFTA'S trade deals with third countries. These are DIFFERENT trade deals than the EU'S. Accordingly, membership of a customs union with the EU is incompatible with leaving open the possibility of the UK joining the single market. You cannot sign up to completely different trade deals to the EU's AND have a common external tariff with the EU. And you might say that the UK could negotiate some different form of single market participation later on if it liked. And yes it might. But that is up to the member states to decide and, remember, they lose less than the UK does from the current arrangements. Essentially, I'm saying that if you want to commit to customs union as strongly as you do you need to explore more fully the impacts of doing so and the available alternatives. You also need to be careful of assuming that Labours sole reason for avoiding the point is political. It is also, potentially, economic. That customs union does not fit as a long term trading arrangement between the UK and the EU given the size and complexity of the British economy. Customs union was the right first arrangement after withdrawal (most especially because, for instance, the infrastructure to deal with a sudden switch from high speed cross border supply chains, such as adequate warehousing space, plain did not exist at the time the withdrawal agreement was being negotiated). That does not mean it is the right arrangement in perpetuity. The Tony Blair Institute a while back did a paper looking at the possible future relationships. It is well worth a read as one of the very few serious pieces of British research looking more objectively and what might work and looking, importantly, at relationships at a level of detail and understanding that was completely absent during the Brexit debates. The vast majority of British coverage has been seemingly completely ignorant of the mechanics of the different trading relationships beyond the headline issues, and the complexities of each. Looking to the future we need to be doing better than this. Trade is a complex subject. What works for EU-UK trade is also a complex subject. Discussion needs to get beyond executive-summary levels of analysis.

[@narenderkaur2942]

I love these really informative and educational podcasts, and all three participants here are brilliant. Rachel Reeves has a very capable background, speaks clearly and will learn on the job if the odd error happened as some comments below seem to suggest, and Rory is a good Conservative overall. Glad to see this quality of discussion as used to happen decades ago, not at all like the time-wasting broken record technique we hear on the news every day for so many years. Good luck to her.

[@frodofletcher]

I am a Labour supporter, and although it won’t change how I vote, I share those criticisms. The nervous energy, talking faster and faster, not waiting for the question to be finished but presuming to know what was going to be asked, and the defensiveness drove me mad. Shutting down questions with, “I simply don’t agree,” left the questioner with no option but to move on. I felt that she was someone who didn’t handle questioning or having her ideas challenged well.

[@Vandel96]

Another tory plant. You gonna wear a high vis jacket and ask the pm planted questions next?

[@veeday1146]

Rory did turn many of his questions into mini lectures and the one time I heard her intervene to get to the nub of his question while he was taking too long, was welcome and shows an astute mind. We all know and love Rorys bouts of teaching us the background of things but not really appropriate in a face to face interview. We’re not all as thick as he sometimes implies.

[@veeday1146]

Oh Rory how many times have we heard the same stuff and stories from you. I had no idea she came from a non political family. I voted for Kinnock and if my children announced they had voted the same it’s the sort of remark I would say to them. In fact after thirty years I still am.

[@edwardkenworthy7013]

This is pretty much the Left in a nutshell "I felt that she was someone who didn’t handle questioning or having her ideas challenged well." As a group they completely lack the necessary intellect to be able to construct coherent ideas and then to defend them without resorting to playground bullying.

[@goonies4616]

what on earth are you talking about?

[@davesy6969]

What Rory and Alastair forget is that you were both in government in the era of cheap money and that the pound has been drastically devalued since Brexit.

[@aboriginesdream]

BECAUSE OF THE BREXIT NO POLITICAN WILL TALK ABOUT NOW!

[@teresajohnson5265]

T. May and R. Reeves are TWO amazing women politicians. Thank you!!

[@Nomoreanons]

This interview shows the difference between a politican seeking to win an election vs one that is reflecting on the past (however recent). Labour's message discipline is very much on show.

[@WS12658]

Agreed. It's a very dangerous time for her to be making big statements and being very open and honest, so it's hard to blame her for being a bit cautious and sticking to the Labour messaging too much.

[@AnimefreakHQ]

@@WS12658 It doesn't make for an interesting interview nonetheless.

[@FireflyOnTheMoon]

" Labour's message discipline is very much on show." As it should be. They have to stick to it like glue for the next ten years. No ridiculous marriage scandals, dodgy expenses messes or taking odd gifts from odd people. Keep your noses clean, rely on ethics not ego and you will be ok.

[@DrAshaphim]

You can't guarantee growth. You can guarantee billions from a 1% wealth tax on over £10 million, and 2% on £1 billion. Do both! And change capital gains. Just do it and be honest.

[@flat6croc]

No you can't. You can probably guarantee some money from the quite wealthy. But the truly wealthy have the means to avoid almost any tax. Some will pay it. Many will not. It's hard to predict how it will pan out. But it's never going to be very much money in the broad scheme. The only reason to do it is for symbolic impact, which is fine. It's just dishonest to predtend anything else.

[@HKrules]

Great podcast, probably one of the best IMO. That's the first time I have really watched Rachel Reeves, and I was very impressed. I'm sure that she will be a great chancellor. Maybe not relevant, but NHS spending was the only topic that I tended to be unsure about. I'm 75YO (pushing 76). I'm on daily Losartan, Statins and Allopurinol. This would be free for an old man like me on NHS, but they have deducted me, probably because I spend most of each year in the Philippines. Three months supply of this medicine costs me about £15 in the Philippines. Whereas if I was paying for prescriptions in the UK it would be about £90 for three months. Something doesn't add up. Anyway, really good podcasts, Alistair and Rory, I watch regularly from the Philippines, keep up the good work.

[@crispybits3765]

Fair play to her. She knows her onions and pushed back well.

[@VinceLammas]

It was espacially interesting and informative to watch the "spiky" exchange between Rory and Rachel - two people who I think are really impressive and reasonable politicians. I'm not surprised they have such a different understanding about the nature and reality of the challenges and opportunities that might deliver growth in the UK. One is a disciple of Thatcher's neo-liberal economics and the other is a passionate rebel fighting against those concepts.

[@scapingby]

Rachel Reeves studied at LSE & worked at the central bank. i don't see how she's going to be much different. i don't see her regulating the mortgage market and decentralising/ breaking up the 5 big banks for example.

[@stephenwood2172]

I assume the latter is Rory?! Or are you being sarcastic? Impossible to know!

[@timsharp8233]

I want Labour to be in government. I think Rachel will be a good Chancellor. But the stupid red lines over EU relationships are a weak point - the EU referendum was not sold by the leave side as something that would impact the economy at all - that was a lie. If Labour continues to be stubborn about EU relationships there won’t be the growth they want.

[@edwardkenworthy7013]

It beggars belief that any real socialist would want to stay in the EU, which is the biggest institutionalized conspiracy against the working class that has ever existed. Punitive duties on imports, especially food, pushing up food prices for workers, free movement of labour pushing down workers' salaries and housing costs up.

[@astalavista_84]

Respectfully disagree - if Labour talk about stronger ties with Europe in the run up to the General Election, they will lose half the electorate. It’s a subject to broach once you are in power, not before.

[@edwardkenworthy7013]

I know The Left are not renowned for their intelligence, it takes a special kind of stupid to believe in a political creed with a 100% failure rate, but this is exceptional even for them. Leaving was never about the economy, it was about sovereignty and not being the vassals of a protectionist anti-worker racket. The problem is that our Remainer government and parliament have done nothing to take advantage of leaving.

[@Coolagreen16]

@@astalavista_84 Well said, sensible.

[@largesatsuma]

I didn't like her defensiveness. She was treating Rory as though he was still somebody in the Cabinet just trying to score political points off her.

[@kayess2634]

And Rory was treating her as if he was somebody in the cabinet trying to score points off her so no wonder she reacted as she did. But she came off very well, nevertheless.

[@xtxrx2349]

Rachel performed poorly. Very poorly. She answered the q by saying we will grow the economy. Get answer, Einstein. That's what EVERYONE says.

[@orall]

Hopefully she'll be cooler in office than in this interview

[@adamjackson6887]

​@kayess2634 no he wasn't, he asked her a genuine question. She was unnecessarily combative.

[@TerryJC1971]

She’s a politician she’s allowed to be combative- this isn’t school debating class. She’s passionate thank god.

[@izzyhawkins3631]

I really enjoyed how passionate she sounded when she was talking about more women in politics.

[@chichim2020]

Interestingly the so called bigoted side has given us 3 female PMs and the so called wonderful side Rachel is on has never given us a female PM and is awful on other points in the front benches.

[@edwardkenworthy7013]

@@chichim2020 Labour has never even had a female party leader, let alone PM.

[@edwardkenworthy7013]

She's probably getting all passionate about "trans-women" i.e. men in dresses.

[@davidgoddard3903]

I am encouraged that faced with the incredibly difficult situation that the incoming government will have to confront we will have such a strong, talented chancellor. I only hope the country will allow them the ten years they need

[@johnalbinson4641]

Rory's closing point on the funding of the NHS is on the nail but no politician can admit that given how politics works?

[@carl2488]

This little angry flurry here 42:29 comes out of nowhere and is quite funny. The noises Rory makes!

[@user-dp1mu2dv5v]

Rory was a slightly tough on Rachel especially in comparison to Kwasi Kwarteng who he was very kind and relaxed with. Kwasi of course trashed the economy with Liz Truss and is one of the reasons why British households have struggled in recent times due to their financial black holes. Rachel is not yet in Government but was treated as though she is whilst being pushed on her ‘chancellor strategy’ which will have been carefully structured in a sensitive way to support the mess the Conservatives have created of which she will likely inherit. Rachel was defensive at times, but I think it was because she felt as though she wasn’t being listened to as she answered the questions put to her. Yes, the solid detail was missing but she provided insights and let’s face it the opposition are never clear with their strategies or policies at fear of them being used by the acting Government. Great listen. Rachel definitely came across as a pair of safe hands who would act professionally with great efficiency and determination.

[@helicoptergunship]

I turned off the kwarteng interview once rory started going down memory lane as fellow etonians, gushing over how charismatic kwarteng is 🤮

[@OH-sq5mp]

In fairness I don't think Rory wanted to do the Kwarteng podcast because of their history.

[@helicoptergunship]

@@OH-sq5mp how do u know?

[@OH-sq5mp]

@@helicoptergunship He said it at the end of one of TRIPs podcasts that came out after that Alistair wanted the interview.

[@user-fv7lq1ur9p]

I think the reason Rory pushed back more against Rachel than Kwasi was because it was obvious how much Kwasi fucked up. Rachel impressed me here because of how well she responded to Rory’s tough questioning.

[@tomonetruth]

34:50 "I do think we have to accept the world the way it is, rather than the way we want it to be." Inspiring stuff.

[@Jons8ye1]

Haha

[@additionaddict5524]

yeah, that stuck a nerve with me too. why the hell is she in politics (the art of the possible) if she doesn't want to affect change

[@VinceLammas]

​@@additionaddict5524 If you want to deliver change, embracing facts about the world "as it is" should be the first and most vital stage of deciding what actions would really help reshape things in the manner that you want to acheive. You cant manage change based on social and political fantasies. Facing facts does not inhibit ambition or imagining and creating change. In relation to Brexit, I think Labour are probably right to rule out opening this debate again at a time there is no realistic prospect of reversing the decision .... probably until the EU can see the major political parties in the UK have a common agenda about seeking reentry to the Single Market!

[@user-bb6hg2rz5b]

@@additionaddict5524 you're missing the point by quite a bit lol

[@davegold]

It's more like 'I do think we have to accept the voters we have in Britian, rather than way that remoaners want voters to be.'

[@isaacmcareavey237]

I have to say I am completely with Rory on this, she came across as perfectly competent and somewhat realistic which is much appreciated considering the disaster that has been the tories for the last 14 years. However she didn't come across as very personable (which to be frank I'm not bothered if the chancellor of the exchequer is), nor did she seem to actually answer Rory's question about health inflation. This is a terrible comparison but it's the best I can think of, I thought she came across very slightly Liz Truss-esque, not particularly answering difficult questions, not personable and quite defensive when it was simply not necessary. That is of course not to compare their competence, I think Rachael Reeves is far more respectable, competent and intelligent than Truss but in interviews their demeanour is slightly similar.

[@limbothytimothy]

I'm inclined to agree. As others have pointed out though, her job as Chancellor isn't really to be personable or likeable. I think it's a bit of a symptom of the fiscal situation we are in now (high cost of borrowing, inflationary pressure, high taxes squeezing living standards) that she can't really afford as an incoming chancellor to commit to things. I got the impression that she has some big ideas but just can't really share them right now because of the situation in which she finds herself.

[@TerryJC1971]

We’ve had personable, who were totally incompetent and crashed it…

[@bweb6]

Have to say, I'm really impressed with Rachel Reeves here. I thought she was well-informed, detailed and handled herself really well, even when under a little pressure from Rory's line of questioning. £1000 for pots! Talk about out of touch with the masses.

[@brotherluify]

I LOVE it when Rory gets spicy. However he is right how will these things get funded? Labour said they won't do a whole lot of things and then things won't change that much. Where will this immense growth come from? There is only so much people can believe.

[@sonicwingnut]

One interesting thing is within Rory's questioning there at one point was a tacit admission that borrowing for investment in infrastructure and even nationalisation were valid routes to economic growth - very much in contrast to his consistent endorsement of austerity while in office - while Rory's history on the subject is largely irrelevant at this stage, Reeves' (and Labour's) avoidance of this point is putting me in the unenviable position of really really hoping that the politicians are lying.

[@Red1Green2Blue3]

No one asks "how will this get funded" when the Tories come up with their policies. Rory has been a part of the Tory party that gutted the country. He's very well mannered but is a hypocrite. All guff and no solutions.

[@user-gu1un7pb7k]

@@sonicwingnut I think they are lying. Starmer made out to his party that he would be more left wing in order to get elected, now he's making out to the public he's more right wing in order to get elected. I'm of the belief once he's in power common sense will prevail. Not saying I agree with this approach btw

[@martinevans3863]

Can you tell me one right wing policy Sir Keir Starmer and Labour have come up with to get elected? Wait until the manifesto has been released if you want to but I am eager to know!

[@sonicwingnut]

@@user-gu1un7pb7k Yeah it depends what he sees as "common sense" I suppose - it's not a term I'm particularly keen on since given the calibre of politician that tends to use the term "common sense", I suspect what we need is a level of sense that is in fact, very uncommon indeed.

[@killercarpcatcher]

Perhaps don't mention the struggle to import £1000 pots again, Rory. Very nice to hear Rachel discuss industrial policy and diversification. We should be building wind turbines.

[@hansgruber9093]

And the Tories wonder why they're seen as out of touch...

[@dmizzle73]

Defo should have spoken in percentage terms there!

[@richardbourn5896]

Rory arguing we should rejoin the customs union so he can cheaply import his £1000 pots is so tone deaf its unbelievable.

[@Fiiifiiiii786]

I totally agree with the tone deaf comments. The problem is we ask our leaders to be authentic as possible and we cringe when they try to be (I'm thinking of sunaks mcdonalds order). The reality is we want them to be more like us and lie convincingly to us about it.

[@killercarpcatcher]

@Fiiifiiiii786 fair point. My comment was more tongue in cheek than anything. I like Rory and how authentic he is. Of course he buys £1000 pots. Just made me chuckle that his experience of customs issues was so particular and like you say, not the typical experience of the common man.

[@rosalindgrxc0e]

you can see how rory’s diplomatic history came into real use here. he has a lot of compassion in what he believes albeit i disagree with him in some aspects but it was such a fantastic debate & i’m really interested into how rachel’s work will pan out. she’s a great debater and stands her ground, which is undeniably crucial especially as she is inheriting such a crippled environment. but she’s good, and i feel like she genuinely listened a lot and really stood her ground with rory whilst having an informative debate that allows the audience to form their own nuanced opinion. 👏

[@TerryJC1971]

What a great session, at last some authentic chats

[@MrMeneillos]

Actually she handled so well that actually won. She earned my respect and my intent.

[@georgesotiriou7051]

Exactly (the opposite)

[@KevenHutchinson-gt1nn]

Yep I would as well.

[@ranganramasamy6820]

Very knowledgeable shadow chancellor. Hope UK votes her to be Chancellor of the exchequer.

[@edwardkenworthy7013]

None of us will get to vote for her to be Chancellor. That's not how the system here works.

[@ranganramasamy6820]

It was not meant to be taken literally.

[@patrickjones8276]

Stewart and Alastair STILL don't get it. 8 years and they still won't accept it.

[@pandora8478]

Spiky? Rory? He’s a teddy bear!

[@RAF_FL_Staffs]

Rory towards the end came across as a pompous Tory, Reeves seems grounded and sensible and I support her views and her party. I don’t think any Tory is in the position to lecture about economy or anything, Tory incompetence has ruined this country,

[@JB27888]

@@RAF_FL_Staffs She is attacking the person, not the argument. Rory made a completely valid argument. in 1997, the fiscal position was far better. Instead of attacking Rory's argument, she begins to attack him.

[@Red1Green2Blue3]

@@JB27888 She should, given his voting record he's a hypocrite with valid points and no solutions. Rory is a well mannered Tory, but he IS a Tory.

[@Bruh-vp6qf]

Like reeves toure unable to separate the person asking the question from the argument they are making.

[@nelty0987654321]

Very enjoyable watch. The idea that you accept things as they are as opposed to challenging them is very concerning. We are fundamentally in a weaker position and being in Northern Ireland getting companies to ship is a lot harder and shipping has obviously went up.

[@propenomixwithadamlawrence]

Rory gets himself into a pickle by not knowing his figures quite enough here. Labour grew healthcare spending over the 1997-2010 period by 5.5% every year in real terms, well above the rate of GDP growth. Debt/GDP went from 37.2 to 64.8 - had the tories grown it in the same way it would be 112.9% of GDP right now. Reeves could only counter with the GFC and then Stewart would counter with Covid. Luckily RR is making different noises from Brown and MIGHT just be what we need. Beats the hell out of Kwasi and those efforts that much is very obvious - better than Jeremy Hunt? Let's see. Unlocking the international investment/co-investing with the private sector sounds absolutely great - will it work out that way?

[@KevenHutchinson-gt1nn]

No they didn't

[@LWME]

On multiple occasions, hearing leading and TRIP. The question of Jeremy Corbyn comes up and there seems to be an implication that everyone implicitly understands his negative impact on the labour party and the country. When it comes to quantifying this referring to policy or specific actions it all starts to get a bit vague. I would love to hear Jeremy on the show!! Or at least more in depth analysis of his leadership of the party.

[@ronanmcw]

Rachel was treating this like a televised politics show interview to plug her position, rather than as the podcast it is. I've actually turned off her after this, especially with how belligerent she got with Rory's very reasonable lines of question. I found it much less interesting to follow than a normal episode of leading as I can listen to election pitches anywhere else.

[@WeLoveGameMusic]

You're completely right. She came across like an automaton . Every question: look at how bad the Tories are. Look at what last labour govenement did. It's so boring

[@meatychunkz8875]

Great questioning, at last.

[@jonathanfell688]

Completely competent, realistic, practical, and driven to change the orthodoxies we have suffered from since Thatcher. I am a Leftie, I don't expect purity or instant heaven as some do. It's a process, grinding away, shifting balances. That I have absolute faith she will do.

[@micksmithson6724]

I was initially sceptical but I think she has an amazing life story. She seems to know her onions about the economy. She doesn't take any shit either.

[@RichardONeill11]

Found the defensiveness of Rachel and combativeness with Rory very off putting. Still would rather labour running the ship but health inflation and future funding of NHS and care are huge questions she should have thought about deeply and have a carefully constructed answer ready. Not jumping down Rory's throat about the tories...

[@Red1Green2Blue3]

To be honest I want a labour party, especially senior ministers, that is robust in their response to Tory criticism and hypocrisy. It's nauseating constantly having them beat on Labour and have labour roll over when Tories have consistently done poorly on the economy, and governance in general.

[@Typhin]

@@Red1Green2Blue3 I agree. She clearly has the confidence to stand by what she's said and if she's wrong she pays the usual political price. Here's hoping she is correct

[@NoOneAtAll666]

Well said

[@martinharvey3990]

This lady is a very serious individual. For years the UK had too many "look at me" characters running the country down in positions they were never qualified for, or have a complete lack of intelligence... She's earned the right to give it a go!

[@jonh2271]

Good to see Rory showing some passion and not being passive.

[@caoimhginmaceanraigh9255]

As someone who is not British, Rory Stewart is a breath of fresh air. He skillfully asked the right questions and I think Reeves did come across as a decent person. Her answers to both Brexit and growth leave a lot to be desired.

[@Jaaj2009]

Rory was 100% correct to challenge her on the NHS, Labour's legacy of PFI debt demonstrates the levels of borrowing. At the moment Labour want to promise a lot with no tax raises or borrowing, it's just not realistic. Her focus on private investment just sounds like more of those gold plated long term deals for the private sector in exchange for quick cash upfront. Rory's wasn't buying any of this, the pre-prepped stories etc its like being a magician and knowing how the trick works. His comment about it being a cunning ruse may have been a little too far though haha

[@SilentSzZ]

She said “We have to accept the world as it is, not how we want it to be”. She said this twice as well as if it was some kind of zinger quote. Isn’t the point of politics the complete opposite of this? It’s only one statement, and I imagine she means that you need to be realistic, which is fair enough. Just seemed a poor choice of words.

[@WeLoveGameMusic]

It's either correct or it isn't. You're not her campaign manager. Stop worrying about these trivialities. You make the whole thing dumber

[@SplashTasty]

If you cant grasp, contextually, why that sentence makes sense, you cant be helped.

[@LRG246]

She was graceful and in good form until the 30min- mark. Once the brexit and NHS questions came her answers got incredibly robotic, dull and uninspiring.

[@evonne_o]

She will care about Brexit when Ireland wants to get together again then she will stop acting like a tool about Brexit. Rory 's face shows how stupid she is.

[@SandMan_86]

Great interview. I liked her mettle under Rory's probing. She responded with focused and justified fire on Rory's lazy and tribal attack on New Labour's borrowing record. A bit disappointed by his dishonesty there, and his personal criticism afterwards which I felt veered on sneering, but otherwise some very incisive challenges. Looking forward to seeing if she can pull her growth target off. Under New Labour UK grew to become 4th largest economy in the world and largest in Europe. Can they do it again without the banking crisis this time.

[@elizabethfitzgibbon3908]

🎉every time l see Rory, am full of admiration. He is soooo articulate. Wld make such a brilliant P.M.

[@lukedaniels7750]

at 42.32 Oh Rachel, that was not an answer. You were asked a straightforward (but difficult) question and instead of trying to answer it, you created an argument instead. Exactly what we do NOT need in modern UK politics at the moment.

[@lukedaniels7750]

She even said afterwards, 'you asked a question', totally oblivious to the fact that she dodged the question that he asked.

[@astalavista_84]

Yeah, he asked a reasonable question. Pointing out in response that the debt has increased more under the Conservatives is irrelevant. Debt-to-GDP ratios of UK, France, US, etc, etc all shot up significantly in the decade after 2008 as a result of the financial crisis.

[@lukedaniels7750]

@@astalavista_84 I think that saying the Tories are BAD is a good argument for campaigning to be elected, however it is a terrible baseline for actual Government. Imagine going to the Americans or UN and saying,' Well, we're a bit rubbish, but the Tories were much worse.'

[@astalavista_84]

@@lukedaniels7750 I meant more that the cause of the Debt-to-GDP ratio increasing so much is (1) 2008 crisis and (2) Covid, rather than necessarily what the Conservatives have/haven’t done. The mess caused by Truss is something to criticise them for, but the aftermath of the 2008 crisis (which happened under a Labour Government’s watch) is more a people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones situation.

[@lukedaniels7750]

@@astalavista_84 Ok, I see where you are coming from now. I admit that I am pretty ignorant about economics, but I don't know how much blame you can put towards New Labour for the 2008 global financial crisis. (But as you say, it did happen under their watch.)

[@hailhydra7959]

I’d still vote for her but I agree with Rory’s challenges entirely. I don’t think she handled them well by attacking instead of answering. Perhaps the least likeable, imho, of the interviewees I’ve watched. Hopefully she’s still a good Chancellor.

[@MrTlawrence84]

I wonder if Alastair would have been as laid back about not butting in if he had known an election would be called a few days later! Great interview. Thank you.

[@lamarnolan6727]

can't wait for this one🤣

[@InsanitiesBrother]

I assume that the audio only listeners massively dwarf that of youtube. Buuut.... please can we get at least 1080p for these. It looks so bad in 720p on a larger screen.

[@jamieclarke321]

First I’ve heard of Rachel Reeves and very much like her

[@ethanroee]

Tbh I don't really care how robotic she is. Think of the idiots we've had in the last 14 years who aren't robots and the disaster of a country we live in now. A bit of boredom and dull politicians is what I want

[@georgesotiriou7051]

Some skill would be welcomed too

[@ethanroee]

@@georgesotiriou7051 I don’t want Ronaldinho I want someone to run the counties finances somewhat competently. If she can’t do that AND she has no charisma/skill/personality then I guess I hold my hands up

[@Red1Green2Blue3]

She wasn't even robotic lol, she spoke very comfortably.

[@user-gu1un7pb7k]

@@georgesotiriou7051 Why? David Cameron was extremely skilled at political interviews and yet was probably one of the most hollow PMs this country has ever seen

[@stevennorman3900]

Rory's question about the NHS and his statement about Brown was factually incorrect. Labour inherited a debt to GDP ratio of around 40%, which dropped to around 36% by the financial crisis. The uplift in NHS spending was paid for by a national campaign by Blair and Brown to raise NI.

[@henryburton6529]

My god - she sounds so intelligent and competent. I feel like i'm waking up from a fever dream

[@londonred8851]

I have been waiting for Labour to sieze power for a generation.. Wow Rachel is truly impressive ❤

[@Fiiifiiiii786]

What kind of pots is Rory buying for £1k each? #ImAskingForAFriend

[@Saunajallu]

Very posh pots

[@pt99810]

Very nice, classy pots!

[@WS12658]

Probably large, ceramic pots. I know people laughed at the expensive of them, but those sorts of things can get pricey very quickly. A little bit tone deaf though.

[@williamcorden2121]

I'm just reading Rory's book so I was very interested in the way he interviews current high profile politicians. I respect him a lot for his intellect but to be honest he belongs in the bubble of academia. His arguments are very statistical, detached from reality and dismissive. We must remember that ALL political arguments and projections are based on theory and conjecture so when someone comes along with another model it's easy to trash it. The proponents think that it will work in theory and so let the voters decide if it can work in practice. We must also remember that Rory is himself a marvelous example of undertaking projects/theories that everybody else predicted would end in disaster. By all expectations he should have been killed in his walk across Afghanistan but look what happened to him ... he became a minister😊😊

[@stephenwood2172]

Planning Reform + perceived competence = growth meaning we will be able to spend and fix everything. The problem is that this plan seems incredibly, simplistic, and ultimately unrealistic (apparently a problem the left have!!!). It's simplicity makes it easy to critique. If this is all she's got, we're in real trouble and the far right will be the beneficiaries.

[@FireflyOnTheMoon]

" His arguments are very statistical,". I take it you mean he is referring to an evidence base and facts, not making shit up? He is interested in history and learning. None of these are insults.

[@williamcorden2121]

@@FireflyOnTheMoon I don't really understand what you are trying to point out. I'm just passing a comment on what I see as his shortcomings ( and I have a lot of my own😊)

[@StuartDWright]

Ok, Alastair! We’re over here, mate. Really should talk to the camera in the intro.

[@redrev674]

Actually I’m a Tory voter but Reeves seems like a safe pair of hands. We need somebody who is boring but competent. People like Rory and Alastair are the problem - looking for big ideas all the time because it appeals to their sense of intellectual superiority. We need more practical people in politics and Rachel seems to be that. The challenge she and Starmer will face is that they will be surrounded by Labour colleagues who don’t think like her.

[@HazeyEd1ts]

100%

[@Owenalpe]

Wow so true

[@CarlisleTooner]

I’m a Labour voter but 💯 agree with this comment. Competence over radicalism everyday of the week for me. The problem with Rory is he thinks he is the he cleverest person in any room he walks into. He was my MP for 10 yrs and I can vouch this is certainly not the case.

[@redrev674]

@@CarlisleToonerlol. Yes Rory should have stayed wandering over Afghanistan. It’s what he does best!

[@Brit605]

I don’t think they were looking for big ideas at all, Rory simply asked a VERY reasonable question about future NHS funding which is a very very important

[@FireflyOnTheMoon]

One big decider in the fate of these interviewees is this: have they done any research at all on TRIP? Have they prepared, have they listened to *any* of the recordings before coming on the show? It's immediately striking when someone has taken the time to read R&A's books, knows something of their careers and life stories, has taken time to understand the point, objective and style of the podcast. Carney, Blunkett and Chalk had read the books and were asking their own questions back. All the people in the room were attending closely and were fizzing with mutual curioisity and interest. Dieter Helm clearly had no idea why he was being interviewed and had never heard of the podcast, let alone done any research or shown any interest before coming on. Pelosi was all over the place. Bill Gates was all ego and defensiveness. As an interviewee/listener it behoves you to be as interested in your opposite as they are in you.

[@andysothcott2336]

What a difference between a mature rounded politician like David Blunkett and Rachel who comes across aa defensive nieve and aggressive to scrutiny what a mess we are in...

[@FireflyOnTheMoon]

I think Blunkett had done a lot of research on TRIP and Reeves had no idea about the show, what is about, how it works or what it is interested in. She wasn't remotely interested in R&A and comes across as humourless

[@mattym8038]

I just hope they can find the growth in our economy to help fund better education, we need more teachers, longer school days and a more thorough curriculum, so our young people are ready for what will undoubtedly be a very difficult future for our country.

[@corincowley1351]

The Australian Labor government did not increase taxes, in fact they cut more taxes than they pledged on doing.

[@piernikowyloodek]

I'm disconcerted by the amount of magical thinking displayed by Rachel. There's no realistic chance in the universe the UK will turn into the fastest growing developed economy. She's right there's a lot of catching up to do... But it won't happen without a customs union which she vehemently rejects for ill-defined reasons. If that's supposed to be the biggest source of funding for the public services, I remain hopeless for the future of the UK.

[@astalavista_84]

This. UK has a historical problem of relatively low productivity and low investment and the latter has fallen off a cliff after the Brexit referendum. She gives zero details on how they’ll look to solve those two problems which is essential for the economic growth levels she’s aiming for, unless they borrow to fund govt spending, which she said they won’t

[@bitandbob1167]

I don’t agree. The global investment community are very fleet of foot - it’s a race remember, and by plucking the right strings they can very quickly turn their attention and get things moving. It is what investors do best, especially if the planning system is favourable. This is why things like the Docklands exploded in the 90s, and then life sciences in the Oxford - Cambridge arc.

[@shaneheff5244]

I agree. Even if the UK joined the customs union it would be a Hugh challenge to meet the NHS costs that Rory highlighted. Trying to do it outside the world biggest marker seems impossible.

[@kerrynewnham8946]

Can we just acknowledge that Jeremy Corbyn was in the same situation as Rishi Sunak is in now, in that he was fighting an election that was stacked against him, it was the Brexit election and he had as his adversary the most charismatic politician of our age who also had only just very recently got into power so he hadn’t been tarnished yet , Jeremy Corbyn had a huge uphill battle. And I don’t think Starmer would have won that election either. Jeremy Corbyn in desperation, when it became clear that they could not win easily via traditional labour policies , along with a less popular Brexit policy, as they had won a lot against Theresa May in 2017, they became desperate and started throwing out policies, which is Rishi Sunak doing now after a period of doing nothing but general basic governance. Sunak is finally having ideas and throwing them out there in the hope it will win back pockets of support. This does not mean that Jeremy Corbyn under normal circumstances would have been such a hapless spendhappy . I’ve been hearing a lot about How Theresa May had At the start a 20 point lead in the 2017 election and yet the results under Jeremy Corbyn was actually very close and I don’t think that that is reflected. enough. I do think that The staunchly Blairite factions of Labor Party basically spin against Jeremy Corbyn unfairly, by using the 19 election against him when I really don’t think Keir Starmer would’ve won the election at all. Let’s consider what Starmer is up against in this election which makes it so much easier: he’s up against a very very unpopular, disconnected leader who hasn’t got even any mandate from the public to start with, he’s up against a weary, crumbling and divided government that Has just had the crisis of Boris Johnson and Liz Truss and has failed in delivering any positivity since Brexit and he’s up against Scotland’s SNP at their weakest point for years... this is all massively in his favour rather than the whole country suddenly thinking that Centrist Blairism reheated is what they always wanted. .

[@elizabethfitzgibbon3908]

Alistair uninterrupted Rory too much! Frustrating! Want to hear what Rory has to say. He is a genius,

[@Beliefish]

being young and dreaming about being Chancellor of the Exchequer might sounded as a good idea, but UK is not a rich country that it was when Rachel was young things change in time, people should also

[@sararichardson737]

The country has hobbled itself withe Brexit debacle how on earth does the economy compensate for that loss if we insist on ignoring the single market? So many SMEs have hit the wall or rather fallen off the cliffs of Dover.

[@Beliefish]

@@sararichardson737 there is no theoretical way. so much time and money is permanently wasted. with so many "bulls*it jobs" that brexit has created it will be impossible to grow

[@FireflyOnTheMoon]

The UK has the world's fifth biggest economy

[@Beliefish]

@@FireflyOnTheMoon 6th biggest and even that can change tomorrow if Rachel will crush the pound by 10%

[@davidrobertson9271]

I am an electrical engineer designing and building data centres. I had no choice but to take permanent Danish residency when we had a legal right to do so. I now pay taxes in Denmark, where the health system works and university is free for students. What is the matter with Labour?

[@benocallaghan701]

Rory has never been so negative and argumentative,

[@gperch]

Rory's right, she didn't come across as very natural, but sadly most politicians these days aren't. They either seem to be job-interview-nervous and come across as rehearsed - or overly comfortable in their self importance. Alastair's right when he says you're very different when you're out of power to when you're about to go in power, but Rory was always more open, honest, comfortable and natural than most (more so now he's not an MP). Current politicians like Angela Rayner and Darren Jones are standout examples of the sort of straightforward, honest (as far as they're allowed to be) and logical politicians we need. They give the impression that they might actually get stuff done. Sadly they're a minority. Imagine if the majority were like that...