Rail expansion and it's effect on model railroads.

Railway tracks expand and contract by large amounts in the prototype, and, our model lines are no exception, especially if your layout is in a non controlled environment! My layout, the "Birdwood Sub'" is in the latter ,and , between summer and winter the temperature difference can be as much as 35 deg Cel. With this much change, rails expand and shrink by quite a bit, so leaving expansion joints and laying track on hot days is the best way to stop buckling and damage!

[@jefflizotte4758]

thank you.I will be constructing new layout in Florida,will probably have some questions for you.Surely will apply this screw and washer system to the layout.Love watching your progress,thanks again for shareing your knowledge with the you tube channel.

[@FishplateFilms]

Thank you Jeff, glad your enjoying the videos! Florida's climate is on the warm side I gather,so you'll have to provide some expansion for sure. I'd be happy to answer of your questions if I can! Cheers Gregg

[@ModelerManMike]

Excellent video Gregg, this was really helpful, something I havent considered. Thanks for taking the time to explain this in such detail.

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks Mike, your very welcome! Cheers Gregg

[@cedrickmoore5459]

Very nice scenery. Did a good job mate.

[@FishplateFilms]

LOL,, pine trees!!!

[@1tombensky]

Very informative. Thanks. Would love to see pictures or video of expansion damage on the prototype. Happy New Year!

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks and same to you!. Real life rail buckling can be dangerous if your near it, as the pressure builds it can let go in an instant throwing the track side ways.I'ts obviously no good for trains either..LOL. There are many videos of rail buckling on you -tube, it's crazy stuff! Cheers Gregg

[@FTLOT]

Looks great Gregg. My helix is breathing as well... it's alive! Stay cool my friend!

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks Tim!, I found your video while watching one of your updates . I like the term "breathing" as that what it does..LOL. Stay warm your end! Gregg;-)

[@chloelovesdavid09]

H

[@tjldoc65]

Gregg, great video. Happy New Year!! Cheers Tom

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks Tom ! Happy new year to you too! Gregg

[@rubber20021]

That's a lot of expansion (1/2") really quite enough to make a different at 100 degrees+ F. Thanks for showing this!

[@FishplateFilms]

Yes, it has to go somewhere Harry! Thanks for watching. Gregg:-)

[@TheGryxter]

Thanks for the great tip on expansion. My layout will be in a basement that is not temp. controlled. I will take your information very seriously when I start to lay track. Thanks Mate!

[@FishplateFilms]

Yoy're welcome! At least in the basement ,you will have less change in temp' beiing underground! Glad to be of help and thanks for watching! Cheers Gregg:-)

[@dancousineau72]

That heat makes me jealous . We are lucky to get that for a week in summer. I just finished shovelling for the second time in 3 days. Hanmer, Ontario , Canada! Cheers!!!

[@FishplateFilms]

Hi Dan, like a lot of things, it gets a bit much at times! The humidity is the killer, though it gets worse as you go north. Unlike the cold, you can only take so many clothes off..LOL I think I would prefer to have seasons, as you look forward to the change? Though I would like a bit more than a weeks worth! But Canada is a beautiful place and can't wait to get back there. Cheers Gregg.

[@Yecartish]

My track laying always has gaps in it. Now I have a valid reason to tell people it's deliberate! That storm has just passed and the temperature has dropped a lot in Logan. Nice tip about the screws. Will use it if I get up to having a helix.

[@FishplateFilms]

LOL, that's it Nick, it's all done on purpose! Wasn't the storm a beauty!, reminds me of storms 20 yrs ago that we got nearly every day! Cheers Gregg

[@chrisshoulders4066]

Great update Gregg'had not had that problem yet but I will keep a close I on it thanks.Can't wait for the next video.

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks Chris!, I worked yest in 35+ doing boned rail joins (fishplates) we did 40 and I'm stuffed today..LOL. Cheers Gregg

[@paulrounding5260]

I live in the UK, part of my layout was above a radiator which had the same issue, luckily it was my fiddle yard and only pinned down, so before I removed the pins I cut the track in several places, straightened it up and put extra droppers in and glued the track down, been good ever since.

[@grandparails8858]

Thanks Gregg,I was unaware that model rail would do that.That might explain some things on my old layout, just moved to garage for more expansion lol.

[@FishplateFilms]

Your welcome John. in the prototype , turnouts often are the weak link and get pushed together and fail due to rail expansion.. You'll need some gaps in the garage mate! Gregg:-)

[@grandparails8858]

I'll make sure to figure that in.

[@retrainrun]

Hi Greg! happy New Year. Sorry to hear you baking overthere. I live in Los Angeles and from time to time we get those high temperatures. And I had that track problem on the west side of my layout where the afternoon temperature gets up to 100 F. So I feel your heat LOL. Cheers RT. Love that trio of BNSFS at the end they look Great.

[@FishplateFilms]

Happy new year to you my friend!. It doesn't take much to cause problems,especially if the track was laid on a cooler day!. Glad you like the consist of GE's, I'll try to put a train in every video if I can from now on ! Cheers Gregg:-)

[@SyteCYer78]

I work for Metrolink in Southern California on the Signal Maintenance contract. The BNSF 5642 and 5615 you feature at 10:40 were leased to us over the last year. We outfitted them with PTC. Interesting coincidence. :)

[@FishplateFilms]

That is so cool Bryan! 5615 was the first Kato I bought and has been running now for about 10 years! Are you a signal electrician/maintainer? I rode a few of the Metrolink rains when I was there last August 14. You have a great place to work in and I miss the US and all my rel life models..LOL Hope to be back soon. Thanks for the comment! Cheers Gregg. :-)

[@SyteCYer78]

FishplateFilms I'm in the signal office, working hand in hand with the maintainers. It is a great place!

[@FishplateFilms]

Sounds , great Bryan! You should get some video of them if you can! Say "G'day" to all the signal crew from a fellow railroader down under. Cheers Gregg.

[@DGModelworks]

Hey Gregg. Thanks for the explanation and example of rail expansion, and Happy New year! Another great Fishplate Film! Now go grab a cold one...and have one for me too! LOL Deryk

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks Deryk, same to you!. I did have a few "cups of tea" plus a lot of water! Gregg:-)

[@CarmineRC]

Looks like I missed this wheen it came out... I live about 120 miles from Vinny, in Tucson. Temperatures here (in Celsius) have ranged from -12 to 52 degrees!! I could hardly imagine having a layout in an in climate controlled shed. Even if the cost makes it attractive... I am fortunate, that my landlord pays the Electric! I get to keep my layout at 70F *all year* !! Even still, there's some expansion/contraction. not much, but once, it ripped one rail right off its spikes on a turnout!! Fully soldered and ballasted, it was a royal pain in the ass to replace!! So yes, EVERYONE should heed your advice! BTW, I love your "floating rails" on your helix. What a brilliant idea!

[@charlesstevenson6122]

Good to see someone finally covered this topic. Its a huge constant problem with modular traveling /club layouts. It tends to be a PITA when it comes to setting up. As for a personal layout, if energy cost is a concern which for most is I recommend setting up the AC in the train room (if separate from the house) on solar power to keep your electric bill down and keep your train room and a consistent temperature so you are protecting your investment and your work saving you from having to come back and fix problems from expansion. Adding expansion gaps is fine but you have to make sure its done right and add an expansion gap every 5-10 feet other wise when the rail contracts it will create a huge gap that can cause derailing problems. Especially in curves and switches.

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks Charles! Having AC in the train room is not an option for me as it would negate the PV system entirely ( i get paid for power sold and haven't had a bill in 7 yrs!) as it would run 24/7 in summer. The shed is insulated in the walls with the roof getting done soon, so it's pretty good considering. As you say I leave a 1mm gap at every length of track on the straights (all curves are continuous) and have had no derailments in winter. Thanks for watching. Gregg

[@charlesstevenson6122]

Awesome brother. One thing about the curves though. I would watch them carefully because if they expand and contract and something is binding up it can cause either rail to warp (more common on the outter rail though) which can cause it to lean out in the future. We've had that problem before and it took forever to figure out the problem even with a track gauge. Myself and another stayed over night pulling and replacing track and ballast before the start of the show the next day which made for a really long day lol. We have two main lines one running passenger (outter) the other freight. Its taken around 12 years or so to take effect but it has happened slowly over time as the ties having weakened with age as they don't stand up to such harshness of being moving around or being in a train 70% of the year like G scale ties which are UV resistant. Just some useful things to pass along from experience. Keep up the good work!

[@FishplateFilms]

Charles Stevenson Thanks Charles! One reason I use Peco track is that it is made for outdoor use and the plastic stands up well to the conditions. I have some pieces from my first layout that are 30yrs old , not on the layout as they are code 100, but they are still in good condition. Other track I've used falls apart so I stick with Peco. The Helix "breaths" a lot and works a treat but I do have to have "large" gaps in the straight runs to accomodate the soldered curves! Thanks for the kind comments. Gregg

[@drumday]

And Happy New Year to you from the north coast of the US, where it's a balmy -24C.

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks Drumday, I'm seeing it on the news, doesn't look flash at all! Stay warm out there. Cheers Gregg.

[@QRoutback]

Thanks for the tips on expansion Cheers Glynn

[@FishplateFilms]

Your welcome Glynn, how'd you go in the storm?

[@QRoutback]

FishplateFilms Not good Gregg , wind rip off a flashing between house and train room , had water running out the plaster broad on ceiling all the ply for bench work is soaked, F***** now , lucky all train stuff in cupboard high and dry. big clean up in there tomorrow Cheers Glynn

[@FishplateFilms]

QRoutback Gees ,that's no good Glynn, it did blow like hell here as well,but down your way seems to cop it bad . Hope the insurance will cover it and lucky all the trains were kept dry. Makes my heat problem seem pretty small! Good luck with it mate. Gregg

[@BArailsystem]

Thanks for sharing Gregg. I hadn't given much thought to rail expansion. Luckily, my layout is in the basement which sees minimal changes in temperature throughout the year. It is good to know for future layouts I may build, especially that tip for floating track on your helix. That is a very clever idea. Happy New Year to you too! Sidenote: -41*C here in Alberta yesterday! Can you send a little bit of that heat our way? Ben

[@FishplateFilms]

Your welcome Ben, wish I had a basement the size of the house!! I'm glad the Helix worked as I was out of ideas!. I can't imagine how cold -41 is..LOL, I'm watching the snow storms on the news and it looks severe, Stay warm mate! Cheers Gregg

[@joeyoung19475]

thank you for the lesson, i would have never thought of it...

[@FishplateFilms]

Your welcome Mark. Gregg:-)

[@ATSF1317]

Hi Gregg, I'm in the same boat as you. I laid down most of my track in winter (left gaps where needed) only on the warmer days and come summer, I have had to cut more gaps and add more nails. What sucks the most is that I'm only renting a house and I'm not allowed to put any ventilation in the shed. Anyways, all the track is fixed now so its all good. Dan

[@FishplateFilms]

Glad you got it sorted Dan, I have had to go back to a few sections and leave more gaps as well. In winter I leave a gap at each length of track. Gregg:-)

[@jiminmichigan]

Great video. Thanx for sharing!

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks Jim! Glad you liked it. Cheers Gregg

[@Rarawer]

intresting ! Thanx for sharing, Gregg

[@FishplateFilms]

Your welcome Sir!, I hope your doing well and Happy new year to you. Cheers Gregg:-)

[@filmmakingiscool145]

Nice video! I am laying track now and outside it feels like -55F. Coldest day ever.

[@FishplateFilms]

Thankyou!, I see your having some bad weather up there, insides the place to be I reckon..LOL

[@rjl110919581]

THANKS FOR DETAIL VIDEO ON YOUR LAYOUT DUE HOT DAY AS LIVING SOUTH PART OF AUSTRALIA AND GET HOT DOWN HERE IN SUMMER TIME WITH TEMP

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks Robert! It does get hot here in Brisbane and it is important to make allowances for that. Cheers Gregg.

[@rjl110919581]

LIVING BROCKLESBY DOWN WHERE IS MURRY RIVER

[@neillooker6077]

41 degrees, above or below zero, I would be having a drink as well. Matter of fact I am now! Happy New Year. Same as Ben, not much concerns with expansion or contraction for my layout.

[@FishplateFilms]

Cheers Neil, there is a drink for both occasions!..LOL Gregg:-)

[@teddybeareleventeen]

Hi Gregg! I hope this finds you well! I may be doing a helix/balloon type setup in the near future. What size screws and washers did you use, if you can remember? I was thinking 6g c/sunk screws with 5/32 washers at 11mm O/D. Cheers! stew.

[@FishplateFilms]

Hi Stew , Nice to hear from you! I can't remember the sizes, but the head of the CS screw is just a bit bigger than the washer , which is smaller than 5/32. I went to a nut and bolt shop with a piece of track ....much better than Bunnings and way cheaper! Hope you're both well, ..I'm just getting over Covid.. have been better but was not too bad considering! Look out for an update video soon. Cheers Gregg

[@realmagicjon]

Happy new year Greg,great stuff as usuall,have a beer for me as well. Jon.

[@FishplateFilms]

Same to you Jon! No beer for me , I think it tastes like cat's piss..LOL Thanks for the comment. Cheers Gregg

[@upsd402]

Have you looked into a swamp cooler? We had them in Phoenix, if you don't have much humidity down under. Track is not the issue, it's the expansion of the wood her in Omaha. Nice video, stay cool, and Happy New year. Terry, the frozen chosen.....

[@FishplateFilms]

Hi Terry, the humidity is bad here as well so a evaporative (swamp) cooler is no good, we use them out west in the dry heat, but here it would give me real grass on the layout..LOL I can imagine wood moving in those temps as well. Thanks mate and stay warm. Gregg

[@billrundell2097]

What suggestions to you give to avoid track expansion? Lay track when the room is warmest at mid temp range of 80 degrees. Allow .005 of an inch space between each track length of 1 foot.? Use small diameter screws to allow track to move length wise.

[@FishplateFilms]

You can't avoid it Bill, but you can lay track that will help compensate for it . Exactly what you say , all of those tips will help you avoid buckling from expanding track. Cheers Gregg.

[@riogrande5761]

A very real problem. I had a garage layout in Bloomington Indiana US which experienced some pretty serious rail expansion and contraction. Temperatures could get to be as high as 100 F in the summer with humidity and 0 F in winter. I noticed Gregg didn't cool the layout room all the time. One concern I had was what would the effect be of such radical high and low temperatures on my expensive model trains, let alone the track and layout! Cheers, Jim

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks for watching Jim!. It would be too expensive to cool the shed in summer,and on really hot days I don't run the layout to help save the electronics .I've had no damage to anything so far and the good thing about a steel shed is that it cools very quickly and doesn't retain any heat. The walls are insulated as well so that helps, and I now have a fan system that comes on when the room reaches 28 deg C and removes the hot air. Cheers Gregg

[@arthurhouston3]

PS I glued mine down, not good had sections pop up. Removed glue and like you made section lose connection with track nails.

[@WEUSANDCORR]

Hey Greg Like that breathing. Had same issue and when I built my new train room which is on the western side, so it gets all the afternnoon sun I put a product called sound screen 2.5 in the walls from CSR .It comes precut to fit between studs. I could not touch the walls in summer or it would almost burn ya and its Hardyplank painted cream. The whole room is cool to the feel and a plus is it doesn't get that cold in winter either as we do get to the -1 or a bit more down here in Grafton Cheers Les

[@FishplateFilms]

Hi Les , the walls are insulated and the roof is getting done this winter I hope? On this day , the house inside was 38, so the shed wasn't much hotter!. The inverter puts a little heat out as well, but a fan will exhaust that soon. Cheers Gregg

[@coxsj]

Got down to -20C (-2F) here in Toronto this past week!

[@FishplateFilms]

Gees' I don't know if I'd survive that Coxy, but I do love the snow , only seen it once and can't wait to see some good Northern hemisphere stuff!. But I see how it could be a pain to get around and work! Gregg:-)

[@arthurhouston3]

All the foam roadbed is going to replaced Gregg covers this later. This happen on all model rr's every where. I forced it. On mine one cold day. Room was 32 f and forced it up to 78f that did it track went crazy. Put in expansion joints end of problem. MY helix was glued track you do not want to do that. Some came lose it is big problem to fix.

[@larryblaha]

I've experienced this on our club layout and we had soldered all the joints, took a lot of effort by the track crew to correct

[@FishplateFilms]

It sure does Larry! I only solder joints on curves. In the prototype, the welded rail is stretched depending on the temp, that way when it heats up, the stretch is removed and it should remain the same length? Doesn't always work!! Cheers Gregg

[@dacuzzz]

hey Gregg... great video on the effect of temps & track work... you know in live in AZ where the temps get to 110+ in summer & about 50 or less in winter.. my house is always at 78-82 degrees F and still had a problem with buckling...( on my previous layout) so what i am saying is... even though you are in a controlled environment.. you still need to leave gaps...just my 2 cents vinny

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks Vinny! We had a town down south that had 54 C the other day and they were frying eggs on shovels in the main street..LOL As you say , rails always move , even in mild temp' changes! ......one of the wonders of science!! Cheers Gregg

[@JohnAPrescott]

Try and stay cool mate. You were sweating bullets in the vid Remember to drink lots of water. Excellent vid as always.

[@FishplateFilms]

I'll try John..LOL, thanks mate. I was sweating more yest' out on track, plus we have to wear long pants and long sleeve shirt!!!! Drank nearly 10 litre's of water and was still thirsty. Cheers Gregg

[@ATSF1317]

Also, if I was you, I would be taking all your loco's and rolling stock inside in case they start melting due to the heat. I've had that happen and learnt my lesson lol Dan

[@FishplateFilms]

I haven't had any damage to rolling stock yet Dan, but I don't run on really hot days , just to save the decoders. I would do more damage picking up all the gear!, especially all those fine details..LOL Gregg:-)

[@Perfusionist01]

Happy New Year Gregg! Interesting video! I was watching this video of your 41C day while our Nebraska wind chill effect is rated as aboiut -20F. Care to trade mate? I'm guessing this track expansion will affect your choices of how to ballast the track? Excessive ballast or too much glue will reduce the tracks' ability to "slide". You made me glad that my display layout had the majority of its track laid at about 85-90F as it also lacks climate control.

[@FishplateFilms]

Same to you Gary! I'm looking forward to getting to the States for a real winter, but seeing ti on the news today it looks full on..At least with the heat, there's no mess and no shoveling involved...LOL. The helix won't be ballasted and the rail should expand at each end of a length, that's why I still leave gaps on the straights.. Cheers Gregg

[@timscorner657]

Great video and I love the idea for curve expansion! One question though... On areas where the curved track is ballasted, do you rely on the straight section gaps, or do you use the washer method there as well? Thanks for the advice and the great video! Tim

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks Tim! The washers are only used in the Helix due to there being no straight rail for a gap, and there will be no ballast in the Helix as it will be hidden. On other sections, all the curves are soldered joins with gaps in the first straight section of rail to allow for expansion.The Helix has 30m of rail in one length, so there was no way a gap at the end could allow for that ..LOL. Glad you enjoyed the video and thanks for watching. Cheers Gregg

[@timscorner657]

FishplateFilms Awesome, thanks for the info. Now time to go do it myself!

[@FishplateFilms]

Timdrum Off you go and remember the "6P's" Gregg:-)

[@arthurhouston3]

You should mention wood will dry out and is another factor that cause track movement either way.

[@FishplateFilms]

That's true Arthur, that's why I use seasoned timber and one reason for using the thick ply, and for building the layout like a tank..LOL .My house was renovated using rough cut hardwood and all the floor beams have shrunk huge amounts ! Thanks for watching mate. Cheers Gregg

[@teddybeareleventeen]

Good stuff Gregg! I've had a couple of spots on my layout do the same thing, but I'm also going to be laying in a few switches that will help fix that problem when I relay a length or two. I told a friend about how a helix is built and "breathes" but I'm not sure he believes me, so maybe this video will convince him! How did you fare at Ipswich? Stay cool! Stew.

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks Stew! The Helix has really impressed me with how well it works, especially with that much rail in one piece! I'll do a video in winter and show it contracted..LOL. We bonded 40 fishplates at Ipswich in about 35 deg, we gave up at 2.00 pm as we were all stuffed, I burnt my hand picking up my cold chisel.. and my knees were red from kneeling on the rail ..LOL. Lucky it was on O/ time! Cheers Gregg

[@vettebecker1]

Well engineered helix

[@FishplateFilms]

Thank you! I'm pretty happy for a first attempt at a Helix.! Cheers Gregg

[@wingshooter1967]

Great thing to know if myself and my layout get kicked out to the shed :)

[@FishplateFilms]

Or get kicked "into " a shed!!

[@STiGuy]

Oh yea, it's summer in Australia. It's Winter here, -15 degrees Fahrenheit in Northern US.

[@FishplateFilms]

I don't know what is worse, stinkin' heat or freezing snow?, snow certainly looks better but it's messy? I do like the change of seasons you get over there, evry7 day is about the same here, as far as scenery goes. Cheers Gregg

[@lodragan]

Even in climate controlled environment (inside a house) temperature variations occur; good to think about expansion/contraction even with that.

[@pokeyjourneys3984]

106 is nothing in Arizona encourage of 220 or more during the summer

[@geomodelrailroader]

if people say on the model rails don't flux they do temperature causes the rails to warp and the end result is dead spots on the prototype they take a blowtorch to the rails here we can't do that model rails are made of plastic and it will melt if heat is added the only way to fix it is replacing it.

[@bhallett721]

love u bro

[@vettebecker1]

A/C window unit please!!!

[@arthurhouston3]

We are experiencing some global warming over two day 1-6-7-2014 Houma, La. USA 30 f now going to 20f tonight. Have not been this cold in many years. I will put some in box send it to you.

[@FishplateFilms]

Yes Arthur, I see it on the news, you guys are copping it for sure! A bit of cool would be good!

[@peterb1543]

perhaps you should move to a colder climate like Great Britain.you wont have them problems with heat

[@FishplateFilms]

Peter B LOL, Then I'd have a problem with the cold Peter! In a basement would be the go I reckon?Gregg:-)

[@geraldstokes5661]

I like that, hotter than a virg, on the virg, Good vid , try to stay cool

[@FishplateFilms]

Thanks Gerald!, many people don't pick it up..LOL Cheers Gregg

[@geechievon]

I PAINTED MY BASE BOTTOM AND TOP NO EXPANDTION TRY IT