Razer's new keyboard isn't cheating; here's why

[@Tempie38]

Silence game dev, ideas guy is talking

[@nbshftr]

reminds me of how hypocritical minecraft pvp is. how people use broken mice with no debounce timer to get higher cps, but people with autoclickers to match the same cps get criticized

[@mmbasedgod]

if u knew anything about minecraft pvp before 2021 youd know a shit ton of people hated on butterfly clicking. the whole reason you used to get banned for butterfly clicking was because doubleclicks were a way of detecting people clicking over an autoclicker to randomize it, it was only legalized because of mad kids who bought model os to get higher cps. youre the mad kid demanding the minecraft server allow you to use your shitty broken mouse lol

[@unafflictedgaming]

Why the hell would anyone play Minecraft pvp lmao fucking cucks

[@unafflictedgaming]

Why in the world would anyone play Minecraft pvp lmao

[@nbshftr]

@@unafflictedgaming 1.8 is the only fast paced melee combat with movement.

[@unafflictedgaming]

@@nbshftr I'm assuming you're talking about a version but so what it's still Minecraft lmao. What u guys doing running in circles left clicking each other 🤣

[@sparda_]

“maybe you should play a more skilled title, like quake” probably the most based thing you’ve ever said on this channel, q3a/qlive is the highest skill ceiling fps, and that is a hill i will die on

[@Hikurac]

I think hardware cheating is going to move beyond simple exploits though. This keyboard has it's own CPU, ram, and memory. It's a computer in of itself. It's only a matter of time before you have things like monitors highlight enemies for you, mice that adjust your aim, etc. Of course, it all already exists in the form of software, but if you add a layer of hardware on top of that, suddenly it's questionable whether it's considered cheating. I completely agree though that the mentality on PVP tech (unintuitive exploits) in gaming is completely backwards. Devs don't have to patch exploits completely out, but at least make it into a normal feature, balance it, and provide something like a tutorial to learn it.

[@AmiciCherno]

I love the last line as you ended the video, because I play quake live and quake champions all the time and programs like SOCD and Snap Tap don't have the same level of effect as they would in other games due to the built-in momentum system within its movement and Quake already allows players to choose whether they want massive FOV, tiny FOV, a different larger or smaller FOV when they ADS, whether they want binds to overlap and cancel each other out, one to take precedent over the other or if they want to be able to press all directions at the same time and have the first or last output take precedent. It's also funny you brought up Quake's early stages of strafe jumping, because currently strafe jumping is simply just a core mechanic of Quake's movement system that you do way better using than ignoring and not learning, plus it's super simple to learn. Recently Valve banned input cancelling in CS2, but it's impossible to ban and the chaos ensued by banning it (people disliking the change and finding ways around it, people getting falsely kicked from games constantly) will force them to retract their ban on it. Eventually, this kind of hardware will become the normal just as increasingly better refresh rates, FPS and panel types became the normal for monitors.

[@cnber4558]

stouty is speaking, listen and learn

[@lakupandaakalakupanda1888]

It sounds like a smoothbrain take at first but if you compare cs2 counterstrafing to valorant, which doesnt need any counterstrafing it starts to make sense. Valorant doesnt have an exploit to counterstrafe to help with weapon accuracy and cs2 could very easily do the same thing by removing the effectiveness of counterstrafing/making players movement stop speed universal no matter the following input. "removes skill celling" yeah but atleast everyone would be at the same disadvantage rather than being forced to use macros/firmware to stay on the same ground.

[@AmiciCherno]

Or money.

[@El-Burrito]

Reminds me of all the people calling leverless controllers cheating in fighting games, even though most of the issues come from the software not handling a new style of input device very well.

[@Stouty]

Optimum's video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fJbRqmiYqJd9ecksi=wkDkAKqkA0DIMBp4

[@IB4theAIB]

“Just walk away from your PC” - great advice

[@FriskyMH]

Man when you mentioned John Carmack and quoted some of his wisdom, I got a nostalgia flash and downloaded Quake Live again. Thank you.

[@grahamflatme]

I've been trying to preach about Quake to TF2 gamers. I just discovered it last year, and I love how similar it is to TF2.

[@mmbasedgod]

lmao type in chat that "games should only reward you for reacting to new onscreen information" and see what they say. quake 3 arena was designed as a multiplayer focused quake game, and movement "exploits" were explicitly kept in. quake live was an online only reboot of q3 purpose built to appeal to the rising trend of competitive multiplayer games in the late 00's early 10's. if you love your "good game design" daddy so much youd play quake 2 or quake 4

[@AmiciCherno]

@@mmbasedgod Have you not tried Q2 and Q4?

[@mmbasedgod]

@@AmiciCherno i know they have multiplayer but theyre less popular bc they focused on singleplayer more

[@user-fk9ir1jv1v]

cant believe stouty died from a greasefire

[@vivious_]

i dont like how this is only available on expensive hardware so lower budget gamers dont have the ability to do this stuff, it almost feels pay to win

[@Stouty]

exactly why devs should incorporate it into the game

[@tomasiskooo]

buy a membrane keyboard. problem solved.

[@nbshftr]

if you're on a budget and you feel like your hardware is holding you back then you won't be facing against people with the good stuff anyway. simply overcome the medium

[@ghoulbuster1]

They'll add it to cheaper keyboards later, it just came out.

[@UmUs]

Life is pay to win

[@matt____]

I first disagree with your premise that game designers are the final authority on what's most healthy for a game's competitive scene. Rocket jumping has roots in unintentional game mechanics but is considered one of the most fun and interesting additions to games such as TF2. I think such a mechanic is healthy for games that utilize it well. I also think that trying to blanket apply the logic presented in the video to all "exploits" or further implying that all exploits are bad because exploit is a pejorative is also taking things too far to one extreme. I think these things should be taken on a case by case basis by the game's community. Counter strafing has been an important and respected skill for years upon years in the CS community and is clearly something they value. Games can't and shouldn't be designed to satisfy literally everyone that plays them, it is impossible everyone will enjoy the mechanics and have interest in playing long-term. For example, Melee players are an entire breed of select players that value all the jank the Melee engine has to offer, and is definitely a niche interest, which is OK, they can enjoy what they have. Meanwhile, forcing players in Mordhau to hit right click twice wasn't as popular as allowing the binds, so good for the Mordhau community that they were able to come to a popular consensus themselves. As for whether or not something is considered cheating, we can simply revisit the definition. Cheating is acting *dishonestly* to gain an advantage. In Mordhau it is socially accepted that you may set up your binds to make certain actions easier, so therefore it is not against any rules or dishonest to do so, and is therefore not cheating. In the highest levels of Counter Strike where such rules are enforceable, the use of null-movement scripts is against the rules, so getting easy access to perfect counter strafes is clearly considered cheating. The fact that there is a disparity right now where the keyboard hardware/firmware implementations of null movement are allowed while the script is not, is simply in my opinion, a complete oversight by tournament organizers at that level creating an inconsistency that will come back to bite them, probably in the near future. I will note that since the use of such a script and hardware is borderline unenforceable by Valve in the rest of the game, it is not considered cheating to run around in your regular ranked games using the script or the keyboard features. However it will likely continue to be considered socially unacceptable to admit to using in various circles. Meanwhile in Valorant, the keyboard feature is nowhere near as impactful because the very mechanic of counter strafing provides almost imperceptible benefit. I doubt people will be up in arms about SOCD use in that game. If we look at a game like TF2 where null-movement scripts are ubiquitously allowed and shared, because of its minimal effect on game play, it's not cheating because it's not against any rules or considered a dishonest advantage to use. On the other hand we can take a game like osu!, which has explicitly defined that only one input to the game may occur from a single physical action. That is, a single finger press = a single key down, a single finger release = a single key up. Wooting and Razer features such as snap tap, rappy snappy, SOCD, DKS, etc. where you can set up the keyboard to macro actions for you impossible on other keyboards is in fact considered bannable and players have been banned in high profile situations. I won't get into this much but the fighting game community has argued SOCD to death. The short of it is that opposite cardinal directional inputs must register as neutral (no movement) for pretty much all the relevant games. So TL;DR I think your blanket statements take things too far, and it is up to the game and its community to decide what they deem acceptable for them. I also want to point out that I think my logic will continue to apply as hardware becomes even more powerful. Maybe communities of the future will say it's OK for your mouse to have the ability to have an FPS game's spray patterns programmed in for you, while another will consider it wholly unacceptable. It will be very much cheating in one game but maybe it's common sense to use in another. IMO games should be fun, competitive, and appropriately fulfilling for skill expression for those who actually play it, not so much for those who were never the target demographic.

[@Stouty]

I agree that cheating is arbitrary and exploits should be looked at on a case by case basis. The only blanket statement I'm making is the following: if a macro grants a competitive advantage then there is a flaw with the game design. This can be addressed by either: making the macro available as an in game bind, or changing the mechanic (typically an exploit) that the macro is executing. For the recoil pattern example, I think Rust made the right call: randomise the spray pattern to render macros useless (which I believe also improves the game design)

[@OceanicManiac]

@@Stouty Errn said they didn't randomize the spray pattern to reduce macros, they did it to lower the skill gap

[@Stouty]

@@OceanicManiac either way it's a good change imo, playerbase has grown as well

[@madkingcesar]

Wow good video, would have liked you to talked about this more, very informative. Sad to see that this video doesn't have more views

[@theshagohod]

Glad I gave you the motivation to make a video...

[@sensei_whoop7970]

Interesting video, would you say that mouse macros for no recoil should then be allowed by extension?

[@Stouty]

Personally, I don't like the memorising spray pattern mechanic so I think this would be another example of a macro exposing poor game design (ideally should be replaced with semi randomised spray but that's a whole other debate). I would fall back to my Macro/Wacro argument where inputting new information can be considered cheating, whereas simply releasing a currently held bind is not. Someone on reddit made the point to me that technically this new update might not even be a macro because both keys are still being pressed, the software is telling the key how to act whilst pressed

[@gevix6384]

@@Stoutythis was a relatively big problem in RUST, there was a certain mouse you could buy that would remove recoil for you and was a huge problem in the game. The devs classified it as cheating and they changed to recoil in the game so it’s not much prevalent now

[@Stouty]

Didn't Rust remove recoil patterns altogether? IMO that's a good change (I don't play Rust though)

[@sensei_whoop7970]

@@Stouty Out of interest why do you dislike recoil patterns?

[@Stouty]

@@sensei_whoop7970 too much like homework; study and memorise this for hours just to have a chance to compete at the highest level. Good game design should be easily accessible and dynamic, not repeat X pattern over and over. E.g. aim, you can practice aim but it doesn't require a long string of memorisation, it's fluid. It also doesn't go out the window when you pick up a different spray pattern weapon

[@lucerne7537]

Finally, stouty uploads!

[@robowner]

he would really like this video, im just waiting for him to start his own, what if he has it

[@K0RT3K]

I am pretty sure that counter strafing in CS is intentional, otherwise they would remove it by now right? Thus, if I am not mistaken, the keyboard is not exploiting an exploit and thus there is nothing wrong with it as far as I am concerned as people are using it to preform the intended mechanic. Or am I missing something?

[@cdrcs7225]

Counter-strafing is not an exploit, it's a key mechanic of the game that relates to skill. Snap tap is obvious cheating, since the same desired could be achieve with null bind which are currently banned by tournament organizers. It's just doing the null binds by hardware.

[@Stouty]

Currently snap tap is allowed by tournament organisers so it's not cheating. See how this works?

[@alphaclam]

​@@Stoutyhe's right that counter strafing is not an exploit because it is not a flaw in the game.

[@Stouty]

@@alphaclam It's unintended (it could be unintentionally a good mechanic however)

[@cdrcs7225]

@@Stouty It will be banned very very soon, don't worry

[@alphaclam]

@@Stouty Before we get to that claim, are you admitting that it's not an exploit like bunny hopping is?

[@Dautar748]

Idk if I would consider adad an exploit

[@Stouty]

admittedly I'm operating under the assumption that counter strafing was originally unintended (given the similarities it possesses with other movement exploits like strafe jumping and bunny hopping). Open to being proven wrong

[@Dautar748]

@@Stouty I always thought that using opposite movement key to slow down faster was intended but yeah, only valve or quake devs could tell if thats intended or not

[@washamga898]

@@Stouty It wasn't unintended because how the source engine works is, every time your character moves, there's acceleration and deceleration until they get to full speed. pressing the opposite movement key to stop faster is intuitive, not an exploit.

[@JohnSmith-zk3kd]

@@Stouty Counter strafing was intended though, and It's intended to be a skill gap this keyboard/script kinda removes the skill gap for counter strafing. Riot Games made counter strafing much easier in Valorant, so It's not as much of a skill gap in that game compared to CSGO, but it is still a noticeable advantage. CSGO and Valorant are essentially built around counter strafing with how they design the maps and the core gun play, so it's not exactly a feature they can just patch out. I don't know if the keyboard should be banned, simply from a logistical standpoint it would be way too difficult to enforce, so I think Valve and Riot will have to bite the bullet and deal with it.

[@Stouty]

@@washamga898 all of that applies to bunny hopping/strafe jumping, a confirmed exploit

[@Champion_14]

Good fpm game when 😭😭😭 Stouty save us

[@Inaluogh]

Never. Everyone will think they have the perfect melee game in mind. Nobody will actually make a perfect melee game. It'll be just as janky as any other.

[@edman.]

Strafing is not an exploit and is intended by the devs in cs, the problem caused by the keyboard is more that it bypasses the restriction of the "null" script wich do the same. Money will always give an advantage with better pc, monitor, etc.. But here the problem is more with the fact that it makes an action wich require skill, done by a third party and it's something cs is against, the throw binds for example would've been a better comparison as it's a skill of mastering when releasing your grenade yet it's allowed to use script for it. Bhop is extremely nerfed in cs2, I think they saw it as too powerful and needed too much mastering so they made it almost unworthy, I understand your point tho but it's not because it's an exploit in Quake that it is one in cs. For me it should be either the "null" script is allowed and so is the keyboard or the script stays banned and the technology becomes so. If all the keyboard were by default with this technology it wouldn't be a problem, people see it as an unfair advantage as it cannot be done without it.

[@Stouty]

>it's not because it's an exploit in Quake that it is one in cs. It is, it's just an accepted exploit. >For me it should be either the "null" script is allowed and so is the keyboard or the script stays banned and the technology becomes so. Agreed

[@skade245]

@@Stouty But it very much is an intended feature in cs, just because it's derivative of a game where it wasn't doesn't mean it is not in cs. This "exploit" could have been patched out by the cs devs but was intentionally kept as a feature for their game.

[@Stouty]

@@skade245 Its history is still that of an exploit, meaning the mechanic is still unintuitive and janky

[@SonOfNel]

@@Stouty so your argument is "Once X, Always X, no matter what" what incredible bias. fl0m made a good point here, would you allow a mouse that could perfect bullet spray so that there was no recoil? What about a mouse with a trigger bot in it? a monitor that gave you wall hacks? NO you wouldn't.

[@Stouty]

@@SonOfNel >what incredible bias No, just following the definition as given on wikipedia. > would you allow a mouse that could perfect bullet spray so that there was no recoil I've already stated that yes I would and then I'd randomise spray patterns which are just bad game design >a monitor that gave you wall hacks Not a macro

[@vsnfudge]

bunny hopping could've been banned back then because it was using the hardware of your mouse to remove human error of pressing your spacebar at pixel perfect timings. they could've argued that it is skill to perfectly time your jumps the same way counter strafing is considered a skill nowadays, yet they allowed the use of a scrollwheel to make it easier. the difference now is that the movement this software enables is not even teachable on a regular keyboard, making it a little more difficult to defend than the bunny hopping analogy imo.

[@Stouty]

my argument is if people being able to bunny hop perfectly every time is a problem, either remove bunny hopping or let everyone do it consistently via a bind

[@vsnfudge]

@@Stouty i guess my argument is if it's humanly possible to replicate it, it should be allowed

[@whoUthank]

where are you dude, we need more videos from you, you gotta be playin somethin, upload it.

[@Stouty]

I've uploaded a few shorts

[@user-fk9ir1jv1v]

he died.. from a greasefire

[@Pughhead]

Not cheating. It's not fair, but it's not cheating.

[@kube410]

Isnt cheating by definition not fair

[@Pughhead]

@@kube410 So? All birds are by definition animals but not all animals are birds.

[@kube410]

@@Pughhead ah yes sorry i meant the other way around. How can something that gives advantage to some players over the others just because they bought a product that changes how the game plays be unfair but not be cheating?

[@Stouty]

@@kube410 Life's not fair. If I can afford a 500hz monitor and you can only afford 60hz I'm not cheating; I just have a pay 2 win advantage. An extremely skilled player can potentially overcome the obstacles that life presents

[@kube410]

@@Stouty good point

[@Rootzi]

snap tap mimics what null binds do in counter strike. null binds are legal for competitive play, but I think it’d be worth looking into what the rules are concerning tournament play. if null binds are banned in CS tournaments, snap tap should be banned too; the inverse if they are allowed at the end of the day, it should be down to the game developer/tournament organiser’s discretion. for a game in a different genre, like osu, this provides the same functionality as what the top 3 player was caught doing recently (and was banned for). by down one key during the entire time of playing, each tap and release of the second key would activate one click, and one hold, therefore simulating two inputs per key press. in many 2d fighting games, snap tap is just SCOD, which is banned in tournament play.

[@Stouty]

>in many 2d fighting games, snap tap is just SCOD, which is banned in tournament play. Probably because fighting games operate entirely with exploits. A well designed game should never be threatened by a macro

[@mevgayming]

null binds are not legal for competitive play

[@tohhi1565]

@@Stouty "A well designed game should never be threatened by a macro" theses games dont exist LMAO

[@Stouty]

@@tohhi1565 Tetris

[@NekousagiKorou]

@@Stouty youd play tetris for 5k hours like chiv and mordhau?

[@Anders-vl6kk]

interesting topic but watching lmb spam chivalry is hella boring ngl

[@BIDENS_HOG]

I recently watched the call of duty league champs or whatever it's called. As a PC player I was initially offended that controller is the imput method. Therefore aim assist is a huge part of the game. It made me think about how many people I've killed in FPS games who should have beaten me due to better positioning, tactics, etc. But lost because I just had more time in aim trainers. Are we proud of being good at shooters or being good with a mouse and keyboard? Taking technology to its limits and someday we may control games with our minds, who cares then if you can tap strafe or do 180 flicks with a mouse? We shouldn't ban everything just because we're used to having an advantage over others due to the imput method we all use.

[@Stouty]

You lost me with aim assist; in a fair setting you allow every input method but no handicaps. If people want separate controller lobbies then you can offer those as well

[@driphaylo2318]

@@Stouty you cannot play with a kbm in cod league tho, for some reason it's banned

[@poke9395]

So as an overwatch player I cannot disagree more. This keyboard removes all margin of error when a-d strafing. Being able to utilize ur movement is a SKILL that should not be given to all players at the skill floor. Your arguments with making mechanics accessible for anyone makes 0 sense. It's like saying aimbots are okay cause now everyone has the same accessibility to aim now, this keyboard feature removes skill expression which is quite literally the fundermental aspect of competitve gaming.

[@nicholasphillips5908]

exactly

[@Stouty]

>It's like saying aimbots are okay That's not a mechanic nor a macro. If a macro can remove all margin of error of a mechanic, it was never a mechanic worth idolising

[@Pughhead]

@@poke9395 Your getting confused with something that feels unfair and something that is actually cheating. It's not healthy for the game sure but it's not cheating.

[@AmiciCherno]

The skill floor has already inevitably raised, whether you like it or not. Which also means the skill ceiling has increased. Eventually you will have to follow the flow of improving technology. You can theoretically be a pro with a 60Hz monitor, but you won't have the same advantages as those with higher refresh rates. You can play a game on a crappy PC, but you won't have the same game performance as those with better PCs and you might even be unable to play at higher than 20-30 fps or maybe not even be able to boot up the game if your PC is dated enough.

[@BlueeCatss]

Ok so what you are saying is that just because strafing exists that this is justified? and that we need to remove strafing and counter strafing? lmao, never listening to a Chiv player give his take about cheating ever again, your whole argument is "Just because a pro can learn how to press buttons better that means that everyone else should be on the same level", like no dude, pros spends years mastering this shit, its not "just a series of inputs"

[@Stouty]

>and that we need to remove strafing and counter strafing? I never said that, rewatch the video

[@ghoulbuster1]

The keyboard ain't playing for you.

[@BlueeCatss]

​@@Stouty You literally said that if Mechanics exist that can be mastered with a bunch of inputs shouldn't exist

[@Stouty]

@@BlueeCatss They can exist, just make an official bind for them (e.g. put null binds into the game itself so players don't feel forced to buy a £162 keyboard)

[@tshouk1848]

if everyone who wanna do great have to use glitch or scripts to do conveniant things like bunny, switch ect. i agree with the video it's maybe dev problem to fix. is the mechanic bad? is it too bad UI experience for good players ? In the end it's on the devs and the community to agree what we all want, what is the direction devs want for the game ect. Also sometimes having to use macro for stupid setting like putting all OGCD in a macro in wow is such dumb. ok it's one cool thing for the skillcap but bruh... shouldnt be already 1 big spell officially made by devs? it's screw new player until they figure it out... skill should not be too much cared about the thing we do but more on what happen in the game. i don't want to do that garbage combo in Warzone to move faster, i know the combo but do i still have to be forced to spam it forever when it could be possible to jsut have 1 button to do what i want ?? can i focus maybe more brain on better positioning/aiming/shoutcalling which are cooler skill to improve imo ?

[@bonk2065]

this has to be rage bait

[@Stouty]

the best rage bait is facts and logic

[@Bodwaizer]

CS player with thousands of hours hard coping KEKW

[@bonk2065]

@@Bodwaizer I’m a siege player with thousands of hours. CS never scratched the itch I had

[@Bodwaizer]

@@bonk2065 I bet this makes no difference in Siege, because operators have some weight to them (never played Siege on PC).

[@casinoenjoyer2013]

have you tried dungeonborne its like dark and darker but less balanced and with chiv 1 animations but has an actual melee system and backed by a shadowy chinese conglomerate

[@Stouty]

would rather make video essays for esoteric keyboard updates

[@gevix6384]

I still don’t understand what this snap tapping is, what does it do? It just seems like regular strafing

[@Deguzavr]

If you hold both the "a" and "d" keys while moving to the right or left, they will cancel each other out, as if you were taking your hands off the keyboard. This will cause your model to slow down and stop, but it will happen gradually. If you input just "a", while moving to the right, your model will try to move left. However, since your model is still moving to the right, it quickly loses speed. As a result, you reach zero speed faster. This means you get accuracy faster. Basically, that snapthingwhatever eliminates the physical delay between pressing "a" and releasing "d," allowing you to achieve the shortest possible stopping time.

[@Deguzavr]

What im saying is, pros are strafing faster then you are, because they spent hours lowering the physical delay between pressing "a" and releasing "d". Actually, now that i thought through this mechanic i find it stupid and counterintuitive... If you are holding "a" and "d" you are clearly trying to stop, not cancel both inputs...

[@Stouty]

Whilst holding left you can input right and you instantly start moving right. Normally you'd have to release left first

[@gevix6384]

@@Deguzavr so this snaptapping thing is just like better brakes essentially? You can go high speeds but reach zero really fast with these “good brakes” also I’ve never done this before, but these inputs look really ez to do, seems like a pretty ez movement to do that new players can replicate in a couple mins

[@hhh-ch8ho]

this video can just be shortened to " tldr Stouty doesnt know what he's talking about"

[@Stouty]

silence weeb

[@hhh-ch8ho]

@@Stouty mordhau rodent thinking his opinion on games matter.

[@hhh-ch8ho]

@@Stouty mordhau rodent thinking his opinion on games matter, unlucky.

[@hhh-ch8ho]

@@Stouty silence larper.

[@Stouty]

ahha you triple posted CRINGE

[@nicholasphillips5908]

The keyboard eliminates human error, that's why it's such a problem, especially in something as precise as a counter-strike. Besides lag, servers, etc. The foundation of our mistakes is caused by our actions, both good and bad. Movement, Utility, Aim, IQ, this is how we learn and improve at any video game, especially in competitive shooters. Any CS players who have been around long enough have seen this before with the wooting-keyboards and it got shut down then. The fact that the door is still open about this feature in CS is disappointing, just learn counter-strafe like the rest of us. Movement is a skill, it's not some script that comes with a £200 keyboard. It's something you learn. Counter-strike has an almost infinite skill ceiling, that's why it's been around for 20+ years. Hopefully, Faceit, ESEA, and even Valve for that matter just disable this feature in CS and we can just carry on tapping heads with our God-like movement.

[@Stouty]

I could make the same argument about old ball style mice and laser mice. When we lost the ball, the potential human error of that input was removed, rendering the skill of ball mice control obsolete. Simplifying esoteric mechanics is a positive; the mechanic still exists and there's plenty of other skills to perfect

[@nicholasphillips5908]

​@@Stouty I dont understand, how could human error be removed with laser mice? You are still using your hands either way which accounts for human error, compared to this software which eliminates 100% of your errors. Stouty I've been watching you because of mordhau but when it comes to counter-strike you are wrong here. I don't hate the feature if your playing offline or anything non competitive, it just should not be added too CS just like how null-binds in the past are still banned. (this is literally null-binds in a £200 keyboard). Remember, this thing has been around for a while and you don't need a new Razer keyboards to access this, you can download it for free but you will get banned on ESEA etc. whats next? A new mouse that get released that has similar software so you don't need to move your mouse down when spraying and it just does it for you like the movement here. Is that really a stretch when you compare it to this keyboard that has null-binds built in?. All that practise and for what... Have you seen the gameplay in overwatch and how retarded it looks. How is it fun for the spectators when he sees this flying character strafing left-right 20 times a second. Just from a spectators point of view its bad, let alone the actual gameplay. No one in Counter-Strike has asked for this, and the people who have are probably just kids who need some hindsight. Thanks for replying.

[@Stouty]

@@nicholasphillips5908 > You are still using your hands either way which accounts for human error You are still using your hands on the snap tap keyboard, you can still mess up (I often do) >How is it fun for the spectators when he sees this flying character strafing left-right 20 times a second Game design issue, valorant seemingly doesn't have this. If a+d spam is OP, nerf it in the design

[@nicholasphillips5908]

​@@Stouty So your blaming the game design of any game rather than the built in Null-Binds that have been banned in competitive games and tournaments for years? For Counter-Strike Its got nothing to do with game design. A+D spam isn't flawed / OP unless you add null-binds, otherwise this would have been changed 10+ years ago. what a surprise that's its not allowed in tier 1-2 tournaments. You don't get punshished for clicking the movement key to early/late, you actually get rewarded! make it make sense. Just listen to what the pro's are saying about this aka the most experienced players. (Im sure you played CS in the past but you must be really inexperienced if you think this is a good idea for CS). The reason why Valorant does not have this issue is because the movement is fundamentality different, let alone spraying. you cant wide swing as far, jiggle etc, because your movement is a snails pace. Its far better to hold the angle in that game compared to swinging as its way easier to get headshots in Val. You can argue that is the whole point but no, that's why its so bad for CS as it effects this game in a negative way, its a broken mechanic and it looks plain stupid. People will die in a milisecond when getting swung and complain that its the games fault, when in reality this keyboard feature is better than the shit that is already banned in pro-play. Everyone agrees including Valorant players that CS has the superior movement, without a doubt. I have almost 8k hours in both CS and val combined. (Immortal 3 / Level 10 faceit, played multiple seasons of ESEA for teams / LAN. Im not trying to swing my dick in saying any of this, Ive given CS2 a negative review so far as it needs improvement. if i was younger aka a Noob, i would think this a cool feature but anyone with a common sense knows this would be the most brain-dead feature ever implemented in CS. (if it was free download to all keyboards) If you still think this is a good Idea for Counter-Strike, that's fine, its your opinion we can agree to disagree however, you cant deny that its built in Null-binds.

[@Stouty]

>So your blaming the game design of any game rather than the built in Null-Binds that have been banned in competitive games and tournaments for years? Yes. >For Counter-Strike Its got nothing to do with game design. A+D spam isn't flawed / OP unless you add null-binds, otherwise this would have been changed 10+ years ago. Game design issue. >what a surprise that's its not allowed in tier 1-2 tournaments. The keyboards are allowed. >Just listen to what the pro's are saying about this aka the most experienced players. Being good at game =/= being good at designing game (just look at my Mordhau health regen debate video where top players all thought health regen was good game design in ranked lol) >The reason why Valorant does not have this issue is because the movement is fundamentality different, let alone spraying. you cant wide swing as far, jiggle etc, because your movement is a snails pace. So you don't want no counter strafing and you seemingly don't like counter strafing when everyone can do it easily, so which is it? If the mechanic was good, it wouldn't matter if a macro made it easier to perform (see: feint to parry bind) >you cant deny that its built in Null-binds. I don't, I think they should just make null-binds legal (as was the case in TF2 decades ago, or so I'm told)

[@alwaysangry2958]

Ugh, kind of agree. I think animation exploits caused by multiple inputs are fine to use (stuff like bxr in halo 2) I do think that having them bound to a macro in actual comp play is pretty cringe, but not due to any question of fairness etc, its just kinda lame. That said it should be up to TOs. If everyone has access to hall effect keyboards, then it just isn't a fairness issue.

[@mmbasedgod]

if youve ever played a fighting game youd know that optimizing your inputs is a massive part of gameplay. this mentality just shows a disrespect for the game and mechanics as you yourself demonstrate with your disdain for what you see as "exploits" (even though the movement values in counter strike games have been deliberately tuned and designed over time, you can hardly say theyre "unintended"). "a game should only reward players for reacting to new on screen information" is such a stupid thing to say, you just don't believe in mechanical ability at all. just because you're unguarded, doesnt mean you should be able to score from the 3 point line, you need to be good enough to make the shot. with this mentality whos to say recoil patterns shouldnt be removed because they can also be "brainlessly automated". aimbots exist, so let's remove aiming entirely! most normal people should be able to see how that's ridiculous, but for some reason people have a different attitude towards movement. the inputs required of you are how you interact with the game, they change how you play on a fundamental level because you are using some level of focus on them. it's not just about players having an advantage, it's about how the game feels to control. airstrafing is a great example that you yourself brought up, the unique inputs required make quake/source games feel fundamentally different, even to games like valorant that imitate them. airstrafing is just as "brainless" and "exploitative" as counterstrafing, and in the same vein gives a unique feel to the input of the game. you can even see this reflected in real life sports with things like dribbling a basketball. if travelling was legal, the strategy of the game would be entirely preserved, but how the players would interact with the ball would feel very different "good game design" doest push players, it doesnt test their ability to adapt to new control schemes or unfamiliar inputs. for a story based game, or one focused more on puzzle solving and tactics, this makes sense, because you don't want the player to be distracted by difficult inputs. for a competitive esport, a game that is explicitly designed to evoke the same sensations as a real life physical sport, streamlining inputs is arguably one of the worst things you can do.

[@Stouty]

>if youve ever played a fighting game Why would I play a dead genre filled with exploits? >with this mentality whos to say recoil patterns shouldnt be removed because they can also be "brainlessly automated" Agreed, it's bad game design >aimbots exist Not a macro >for a competitive esport, a game that is explicitly designed to evoke the same sensations as a real life physical sport, streamlining inputs is arguably one of the worst things you can do. And yet, Mordhau improved when its inputs were streamlined

[@mmbasedgod]

> And yet, Mordhau improved when its inputs were streamlined One game? A game that has relatively low mechanical skill involved? Obviously a melee combat game that relies on mindgames for depth will be different from an fps game that relies on real life mechanics for depth. This is the exact thing i said where you just dont respect mechanics as an actual thing in games which proves you have no idea what youre talking about and should stay in your lane

[@Stouty]

@@mmbasedgod >One game? A game that has relatively low mechanical skill involved? LOL you would get 10-0'd by a C tier player

[@jakeball9548]

to begin i love your voice its very nice you are very well spoken, secondly i agree with pretty much everything you said. they should either remove esoteric moves such as combo feint to parry in mordhau or make it easy to do (which they did)]. if people can buy new shit that makes stuff like this easier then making it easily doable (and informing how to do it in a tutorial) should be the norm.

[@Cre4tor.]

They just banned if from cs2 anyways

[@grahamflatme]

What players were asking for this though? It's seeming like everyone is kinda on the same page, where this is just kinda unneeded and lopsidedly advantageous. Why are they creating the market need for these keyboards? I honestly don't want to require a specific actuator just to be on the same playing field.

[@Stouty]

you could say that of any technical innovation

[@grahamflatme]

@@Stouty Except the players are not the one asking for this. Companies developed this tech to market to us, and we are just accepting it

[@Stouty]

@@grahamflatme because it hadn't been invented yet (in hardware form anyway)

[@AmiciCherno]

You're completely wrong. I've been following hall effect keyboards for at least 8-9 years now and have wanted to see features like these added to the innovation of keyboards since then, it used to be old and forgotten technology on keyboard from decades ago, now we are finally getting these keyboards into the main stream and no-brainer software improvements like "Snap Tap" have finally been implemented when it was one of the first things I thought about when I first heard of Wooting keyboards, it just took them forever to add it. On top of that, I see plenty of people arguing this topic from my side of the fence as well. It's not just a market need being created from thin air, it's a market need that has been in the air and has finally been given to the general population of users of these keyboards. Now, we will fight to keep features like this in our hands, because it's literally an improvement on a tool we have used for decades that has hardly had any innovation or increase in responsiveness to our ability to use them until now.

[@gaerildpog5897]

here now because cs has banned the use of snaptap/socd/null binds in valve official servers.

[@Stouty]

A reactionary decision but one they're probably forced to make given how readily CS's poor game design is exposed by macros (namely recoil)

[@AmiciCherno]

@@Stouty They will retract the decision eventually. It's impossible to keep up the ban unless they want to face increasing backlash and issues that come with it that will make them look worse as a company.

[@Stouty]

@@AmiciCherno hopefully, will be interesting to see this debacle play out

[@gaerildpog5897]

@@AmiciChernovalve is not the kind of company to give a shit about backlash and i doubt theyll revert this change - maybe revert jump bind but thats as far as i imagine itll go.

[@gaerildpog5897]

@@Stoutyi genuinely believe youre baiting with your spray pattern take, its such silly reasoning.

[@mmat796]

2:50 "macros aren't the problem" like what? macros are absolutely the problem. A macro utilizing a mechanic, no matter how unintended it was by the devs originally, is unquestionably cheating Saying that you think that it should be changed and that this "mechanic" shouldn't be a thing is perfectly fine. But saying that its not cheating based on the fact that it was not originally intended like say bunny hopping is idiotic Also what does it even mean that its "leveling the playing field between pros and new players"? So does aimbot like holy shit

[@Stouty]

Depending on the rules, anything can be cheating, including mice and keyboards. >So does aimbot like holy shit That's not a macro

[@tshouk1848]

tho if the mechanic is coded to be use the hard way for no reason or must be fast and constant repetitive move like slide cancel on cod. Let's be honest let everyone just go faster or change the mechanic to get a middle ground with the vision about mobility in a game should be or not then fix or allow the use officialy by patching the game. Same game when u look at it at the end u just don't end with pain in the hand end of the day =D

[@hunterbarlow1621]

You should release a public Gold rush server that will be so much fun😅

[@Stouty]

doesn't work without 2 full teams

[@BlueLightningSky]

Let's also build in aimbots so that we can close skill gap between pro players if that's the only thing this product is guilty of. Why not make recoil scripts part of the game as well? You act like the devs decide how the game should be played. It's always the players. People liked bunnyhopping, it elevated the skill ceiling, if you didn't like it and didn't want to learn you played something easier called CS.

[@Stouty]

>Let's also build in aimbots not a macro >Why not make recoil scripts part of the game as well or they could randomise recoil partially like Rust >You act like the devs decide how the game should be played. It's always the players No, the devs could fix the exploits, forcing players to play properly (or play something else)

[@BOPAmicro]

Remove recoil. Only good players know how to control it and it makes it harder for new players.

[@Stouty]

correct, recoil should be randomised rather than having spray patterns that a macro could perform

[@epitome89]

By this logic, recoil is an exploit because a macro can remove it. Therefore, by your logic, all recoil should either be removed or the game developers should all players perfect recoil control via macro. This is plain stupid, for real.

[@Stouty]

>By this logic, recoil is an exploit because a macro can remove it Wrong, recoil was clearly intended by the game's designers from the very beginning. However the macro being able to perform it perfectly exposes recoil as bad game design -- Rust actually replaced spray patterns with randomised recoil due to macros (a good change) and it's as popular as ever

[@MrSkollll]

@@Stouty Do agree about Valorant's solution to a null build and your general attitude about macros, but introducing rng to a core mechanic is a terrible soltuion, see also critical hit in tf2

[@Stouty]

@@MrSkollll As I see it, recoil punishes players for moving/spraying. If a player can bypass this punishment by spending 1k hours memorising a spray pattern (basically a chore) then why even bother adding recoil?

[@hamicestormgladiator]

Counterstrafing isn't an exploit in the first place.. thats like saying nade line-ups are exploits - there isn't a bug there to be exploited. I think the better argument is that this was achieveable with an autoexec script but that script was banned from tournaments, yet this keyboard isn't even though it does the same thing just built into the hardware. Imagine a smash tournament. Obviously macros are disallowed. Now imagine that same tournament allows a controller that has a macro built into it to get perfect ice climber wobbles. Its completely inconsistent.

[@Stouty]

>imagine a smash tournament I can smell it already If you think the original designer of recoil spread thought players would tap the opposite movement direction whilst releasing the opposite input to instantly gain a perfect spread then I have a bridge to sell you

[@hamicestormgladiator]

​@@Stouty The argument isn't about whether or not counter strafing is an intended mechanic, its in the game regardless. I think its weird to argue that it isn't given that it would probably be one of the first things a dev tested to make sure the aim bloom implementation is working as intended plus its been in the game for tens of years, but thats besides the point. The argument is that, in tournaments specifically, they ban the null movement script (which allows someone to do what this keyboard does with an autoexec script) but allow this keyboard. The smash analogy was to illustrate how illogical it is to ban one but not the other, its the exact same thing just software vs. hardware. Either they should allow both or neither.

[@Stouty]

@@hamicestormgladiator I agree, they should allow both

[@arthurg.calixto3338]

I used to cheat in WW2 games like Day of Defeat because my razer mouse had an autoclick button on it, basically turning any semi-auto weapon full auto. Nothing to do with the video I just remember having fun with it

[@Stouty]

it's a good example; sensible design would restrict how quickly you can fire semi auto

[@mmbasedgod]

sensible design would make all semi auto guns full auto with lower fire rate. forcing players to click individually would be considered "bad game design" according to armchair experts

[@Stouty]

@@mmbasedgod >full auto with lower fire rate Oxymoron

[@mmbasedgod]

how is that an oxymoron? a gun can have a 300 rpm and still be automatic if the devs allow it. you only think that because on some level you recognize weapons are semi auto as a way to limit your firerate

[@arthurg.calixto3338]

99% of mouses can't even process the in-game highest possible fire rates for semi-auto guns because the devs don't expect most players to even have the trigger finger for it.

[@LuvuLk]

stoutlord do u still do coaching? my level 200 friend is not cutting it

[@Stouty]

yup

[@LuvuLk]

@@Stouty how pay for dat shit i’m frmdao gotta give me coaching yk wat i mean

[@Stouty]

@@LuvuLk no I don't

[@faredelisi1601]

Stouty how do you watch over attacks that you possibly can’t see while playing first person. I want to go back to first person but after i got used to third person its pretty hard to go back. Any tips?

[@Stouty]

Idk practice which leads to game sense

[@BIDENS_HOG]

I don't think there's really an easy way to practice situational awareness besides time played. Being in the right place at the right time has a, probably, infinite skill ceiling.

[@nbshftr]

you will often see other good players schizophrenically turn to try and block/attack someone who isn't there. comes with time

[@longhappyfrog]

Idk I think when you start removing human input from keyboards its a problem especially when the outcome is you turning into 100% robotic actions that software is helping you do. Remove keyboard software from tournaments and were fine. At the end of the day whats the difference between me running some python script that does the exact same thing verse this doing the same thing masked behind "keyboard software"?

[@Stouty]

the issue is an unresponsive script can perform better than someone with access to the latest frame data, why is that the case in a video game? It's poor game design

[@longhappyfrog]

@@Stouty Games are designed around how a keyboard works and humans not being able to do certain things perfectly. Its not poor design that you choose to cheat that

[@Stouty]

bunny hopping and counter strafing weren't designed at all

[@hhh-ch8ho]

@@Stouty but they objectively were in CS2. maybe not in 1.6, but in CS2 they were.

[@Stouty]

@@hhh-ch8ho not really, they were copied from the original design

[@Tonykid7]

This is such a bad take, you're basically saying everyone should just get null scripts which have already been banned for so long in Counter strike.

[@Stouty]

And the keyboards are currently unbanned; cancelling out the authority of the null bind ban. So yeah let's unban both

[@dimoronen]

Valve just banned it lol. 10 years of cheating but this is what gets banned. :D They should just have accepted that their game design is shit and done the Valorant solution where you have no benefit from it in the first place, instead we are gonna see a LOT of false kicks.

[@Stouty]

yup seeing a lot of false positive clips already lol

[@Lemontarts01]

Nobody would ever use this keyboard with a 2 dollar mouse. Yet everyone would use a mouse worth the keyboard with a 2$ keyboard. Argument over

[@Stouty]

I've read this 3 times and still have no idea what you're trying to convey

[@Jelley0]

Counter-strafing is intended and a skill, and removing it deliberately fits the literal definition of cheating--regardless of how the game is programmed--and your down-syndrome enforced opinion is irrelevant too.

[@Stouty]

>Counter-strafing is intended Source needed >and removing it Never said that >fits the literal definition of cheating Except at the time of uploading it was *literally* allowed in competitive play. Nice post, shame I dismantled it in 10 minutes :')

[@thejhonnie]

I can't get behind this idea. I feel like you're arbitrarily against select emergent gameplay. Are you against a macro for maximum feint timing?

[@Stouty]

>Are you against a macro for maximum feint timing? I am not, however an external macro would likely not work due to ping

[@NitroSperg]

GEEKED UP PLAYIN XBOX ALL DAY

[@tearsien]

Is ANYONE actually arguing it's cheating? It's just unfair and not very smart to allow niche hardware to have an advantage over all others. I realized you're coming at this entirely wrong when you started comparing bunny hoping to a hardware device that allows for someone to achieve what others can't? Sorry, but this doesn't make sense.. If everyone had a keyboard with this function, there would be no problem. The reason bunny hopping wasn't a problem is because everyone with good timing could perform it. What's happening now is you're allowing players with specific hardware to have an advantage over others on a large scale..

[@Stouty]

you realise bunny hopping binds exist?

[@tearsien]

@@Stouty but no one cares about bunny hopping binds, because if you have enough skill you can replicate it.

[@Stouty]

@@tearsien now apply that same logic to counter strafing

[@tearsien]

@@Stouty It doesn't exist, because no matter how much "skill" you have, you cannot counter strafe remotely similar to someone with the keyboard.

[@Stouty]

Except players literally get kicked from the game by the snap-tap detection even when not using the keyboard

[@merkeva1841]

global elite in wingman heheheh

[@CptWhit3y]

Wooting rules!

[@illegalmeats114]

There’s a good reason why the devs made counter strafing a legitimate feature in CSGO and CS2. It’s skill expression and it encourages players who want to level up their game to commit more time to the game. I’m silver and I’m trash at counter strafing, but if I see someone who’s doing it perfectly then I’m assuming they’re using snaptap, SOCD, or null binding. It’s all scripting to me. I’m not trying to buy a certain keyboard just to compete. If you want to level the playing field then null binding would have to become a feature

[@mmbasedgod]

this guy didnt respond to you because he has no argument against this. his whole point rests on the idea that input is not something deserving of his respect, that the time and effort people put into being faster and more precise with their keystrokes is worthless because it is "brainless" (very objective criterea). the fact is csgo is on some level trying to recreate the sensation of real life sports, and part of that means training your body to perform motions quickly and accurately. remove the requirement to train your body and the game loses its audience

[@Breakinwords]

You need to fix your audio, massive static throughout the video.

[@Stouty]

bluds an audiophile 💀

[@Dogwater420]

As long as scripts that do this stay banned, and i can just use my excessive wealth to buy expensive keyboards giving me the same advantage in a legal way, im happy

[@Ellivlok23]

Tell me you've never competed in a single FPS without telling me you've never competed in a single FPS. If this keyboard is doing the same thing as a null bind, which is banned, then this keyboard needs to be BANNED. if you are taking HUMAN ERROR out of the equation than it is cheating. You can learn to do these inputs with much practice, now people won't need to practice this and everyone's on a level playing field in a game that has a huge part of it's gameplay revolving around player mechanical ability. Players, Teams, and Orgs need to boycott events that allow this keyboard. If we are going to allow these sorts of programs into our hardware then I should just load up a mouse with auto aim and a trigger bot.

[@Stouty]

>Tell me you've never competed in a single FPS without telling me you've never competed in a single FPS. Rank 1 in Mordhau, a game with a much higher skill ceiling than CS >If this keyboard is doing the same thing as a null bind, which is banned, then this keyboard needs to be BANNED I could just argue that because the keyboard is currently allowed, so should null binds >if you are taking HUMAN ERROR out of the equation than it is cheating Could say the same of any technical innovation "I learnt to use my mouseball better than others so laser mice should be illegal" >I should just load up a mouse with auto aim and a trigger bot Auto aim isn't a macro so that's a terrible comparison. A trigger bot is interesting which I believe is a macro to control spray. Rust actually randomised their spray patterns to address such macros (which fits my argument of correct issues with the game design rather than trying to ban macros)

[@poke9395]

@@Stouty a laser mouse doesn't remove human error so that statement is invalid

[@Stouty]

@@poke9395 A player that has 1000 hours in controlling a ball mouse is presumably more skilled in operating it than a player with 1000 hours on a laser mouse. Therefore, the transition from ball to laser mice removed the human error of operating the ball mouse. All the nuances of ball mouse control are now gone

[@mmbasedgod]

@@Stouty a laser is a more direct way of measuring the distance a mouse is moved, if anything it adds the opportunity for human error by more effectively measuring it. the skills required to move a ball mouse are not 1:1 to the skills required to move a laser. the laser mouse doesnt "remove human error", it is just a different skillset

[@Stouty]

@@mmbasedgod exact same applies to this keyboard

[@TheVocoderGuy]

"If a player benefits from a string of inputs being made brainlessly by a script, then the issue is with the game which should ideally only reward players reacting to new onscreen information" Preach brother!

[@ad0m_]

The title says it isn't cheating, but you only argue that there shouldn't be game mechanics overcome by simple macros. It IS still cheating. Also, John Carmack is an brainlet.

[@Stouty]

Ultimately what's "cheating" is at the whim of the organiser of a specific match and Carmack would 10-0 you in a brain off

[@zomloader]

"global elite... In wingman"

[@quaz1moto241]

You've got a point. They might as well implement nullbind or make CS counter strafing have a delay like Valorant rather than banning a feature that's only going to be more and more prevalent.

[@LuizDahoraavida]

2 minute aah ahk script

[@m1l22]

fort, night

[@laeyak6550]

Banging content ngl

[@zosfero]

Somewhat agree, basically more games need to level the playing field by giving players more control over these technicalities

[@manmansgotmans]

Kinda sad I got a blackwidow instead of a huntsman, dunno the exact difference between these two kb's but it kinda sucks to miss out on it before they remove it. Also, props for the entertaining gameplay, had to go back a few times because I stopped paying atention to what was being said. And the quake statement will hold up for years to come

[@grahamflatme]

Yeah sadly this just feels like big keyboard innovating where we truly had no need. Now everyone has to get new keyboards to keep up ;(. RIP 2014 Blackwidow, you had a good run.

[@Stouty]

@@grahamflatme Wooting already did that with the analogue keyboard stuff

[@ToLazy4Name]

stouty

[@bigfunny3463]

Can I have free coaching I keep dying

[@Stouty]

OK kzbin.info/www/bejne/q2HCooitmLZnaZYsi=f9YKS-pEFrpglOmG

[@skade245]

Silence faceit 10, wingman global is talking

[@tougeadventures2076]

"play a more skill title like quake" haha as a Quake Live sweat... I approve this message

[@clubsodaed]

Wtf is this keyboard shit, play Dark and Darker bruh

[@MoonLyteV2]

agree 100%

[@lavenderlolxd]

Good thumbnail lol

[@samoy694]

One could argue its similar to changing DPI or resolutions or graphics 😅

[@SolvedNC]

Funniest fact is that this has been available as a script like AHK for decades, since 1.6 Its called Null binds, nothing innovative, its just brought to a broad audience and they dont like that (also only on very expensive hardware for some reason, maybe to force ppl to buy it)

[@eduj]

When is contingent

[@NHZC]

Based as usual.

[@cfvb6736]

W opinions from stouty always. mount and blade combat is the ideal for competitive melee, mordcels will never understand

[@Serega-tankist]

Gf

[@mattman24]

Hm, I’m a bit stumped on your point here. Maybe I’ve misunderstood. Do you not think, even if a mechanic is unintended, and even if game dev is against using it, if the general consensus is that it’s good and people actually like it, it shouldn’t remain? I fail to see why a game should stay rigid to what a developer intends. With bhopping that has become a major part of Quake and its descendants - what are you insinuating about it, that it should be removed?

[@Stouty]

Ideally emergent mechanics should either be removed or adopted into actual mechanics (that don't require esoteric button combinations to execute)

[@mattman24]

@@Stouty So just to mould a solution to your viewpoints. If bhopping had to stay, do you think that it should just be accessible, whether that's just having like an auto bhop toggle or being able to hold space and it will time it perfectly, sort of thing?

[@Stouty]

@@mattman24 correct and if that was deemed broken, then bhopping could be nerfed or removed

[@mattman24]

@@Stouty originally I disagreed with this but a game I really enjoy is called Cocaine Diesel, running off a Quake-derived engine, and that has auto bhop holding space, and that game is still skilful as ever, so yeah this is probably valid. Anyway imo for the counter stafing thing I think that if your buttons pressed does not actually reflect what should happen then that should not be allowed. Regardless if counter stafing wasn't a useful mechanic I still do think that if you are holding A+D and the intended consequence (of standing completely still) does not occur, then this does not fall under how the game is meant to be played (or how the devs intended, if you want to see it that way). I don't really think it is ""cheating"" per se just more 'disingenuous' for lack of a better word. My bottom line is I think if you hold some keys, those keys should register, and having the same behaviour for every player. but I mean I am not good at CS or know much about the game at all, so my opinion doesn't really have much weighting, especially if CS esport organisers think its fine or whatnot. but just my thoughts.

[@Stouty]

@@mattman24 Again my argument would be "why does spamming a + d provide such an advantage? Would a SWAT team really clear a room by jiggling around on the spot?" It just highlights the issue with the game design. Interestingly, Valorant has already addressed this (whether or not it's better is a different debate)

[@alphaclam]

Not true. Unlike bunny hopping, counter strafing in counter strike isn't an exploit. This is an intentional part of the game design: players are less accurate when moving than standing still. Even though your argument doesn't make sense, the keyboards shouldn't be banned and players should choose how they want to play individually.

[@Stouty]

Except counter strafing lets players retain stationary accuracy whilst moving, there's absolutely no way the original designer of recoil spread foresaw that emerging. Feel free to prove me wrong

[@alphaclam]

@@Stouty that's straight up wrong. you don't know what counter strafing is. counter strafing cancels the effects of prior movement inputs to quickly regain accuracy lost from moving. it doesn't allow players to retain accuracy while moving at all.

[@Stouty]

you can then continue to move after taking your stationary shot (that you got to faster than simply stopping to move) I worded my first comment poorly but essentially counter strafing lets players avoid the penalties of movement (clearly unintended in its initial iteration)

[@alphaclam]

@@Stouty incorrect. that's not "retaining stationary accuracy whilst moving." If you continue to strafe in the opposite direction, you will incur penalties to accuracy. And that's not counter strafing. Again, counter strafing cancels strafing momentum to bring the character to a halt. It doesn't mean strafing back and forth. Not only do you not understand counter strafing, you seem to not understand what the keyboard is doing and why it is controversial. The player is able to hold down one direction on the keyboard and then tap the other direction without letting go of the first input. He doesn't "continue to move" until he makes another input.

[@Stouty]

@alphaclam You will occur penalties until you counter strafe again, retaining stationary accuracy. In essence, you can move at a high velocity for longer than a player who does not counter strafe whilst retaining stationary accuracy (via counter strafing) for the brief taps that you take. I'm aware the player is stationary at the time of the tap Do you think the original designer of this mechanic intended that 20~ years ago?

[@ilovewizard]

good take. w idea guy