RE: Aziz Ansari and the Politics of Politeness (Content Warning)

Let's clear up some misconceptions surrounding the anonymous article published about Aziz Ansari and what consent actually means.
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[@jeremyodwyer9232]

Great video. One of the best things I saw to come out of this was Samantha Bee saying how it doesn't have to be rape to ruin your life, and it doesn't have to ruin your life for it to be something worth talking about.

[@entertain7us148]

Sam got so much hate for that video, which I find hilarious because that one statement sounds so reasonable and uncontroversial to me. People just hate to ever consider nuance. If it's a feminist talking about something that makes them feel uncomfortable because it suggests you might need to change their behaviour, they'll stick their fingers in their ears and pray they don't hear a good argument that could change their outlook.

[@cjaquilino]

That Samantha Bee segment was the best ever. I think it's called something like "Samantha Bee: Aziz Anasari and the #MeToo Backlash".

[@RickNelsonMn]

I loved Sam for that response. She's one of my heroines.

[@firstlast9916]

No hitting on each other in the workplace people. Ignore all signals from women. And get HR to Strictly enforce dress codes.

[@jeremyodwyer9232]

Rudy C What do you mean when you say ignore all signals from women?

[@eleanorweston4850]

I think the things people need to remember is sometimes. ... things that are still legal.... are bad

[@entertain7us148]

many forms of emotional and sexual manipulation and coercion cannot be classified as crimes. But they're still signs of a fucking psychopath.

[@alyssalakey]

this is my new favorite thing please let’s make this the new hot meme

[@thefierce4324]

Sure they're bad. Like adultery. But then it's none of my fuckin business and the parties involved need to resolve it on their own.

[@TheSaidame]

@@thefierce4324 Yup , i think moral of the story is woman should not blame man after sex cuz they regret it ... if they dnt know the man well , dont feel confortable or whatever dont put yourself naked and go have sex , and stop going hamester mind about it to blame the man .... or he forced the woman or th woman simply made a bad decision for god´s sake...

[@mrd4518]

Great video. I think a key aspect about the negative/aggressive response to the article is that Aziz Ansari is branded as a "likable, cute, harmless guy". So people think that they know him and are more likely to excuse behaviour that is considered to be in the grey area of sexual assault. If Grace had accused a public figure who is already thought of as a creepy old guy or someone who plays villains in film/TV, I think that people would have been quicker to believe it and not immediately attack her.

[@cjaquilino]

There's literally a hashtag called #TeamAziz. It's really cynical when you think about it. Is it really intelligent to reduce a conversation about sex and consent to one about which side is right on a "team"? I don't think so. It's a black and white, with him/against him, and stannish way of thinking.

[@RickNelsonMn]

The story notes, one of the reasons for Grace to tell her story was that Aziz had worn a pin "times up" to the Golden Globes and then, he acted like a hound dog. I think Aziz was deplorable and assaulted her.

[@iluvsakuraandsyaoran]

I can't actually go back and read the article again myself, it was really hard even getting through it that first time. But one thing she said that stuck with me was, after she came out of the bathroom, she told him she 'didn't want to hate you [Ansari] in the morning'. I think it's real fucking obtuse to read that and think she never made her position clear. In *what* situation do you tell someone 'hey we're on a track that will lead me to despise you' and not immediately stop and go 'woah what's going on '.

[@mainahgruau6631]

When I first heard about this controversy, it was from my dad who had read an article about it, and he was so pissed, like the woman had personally offended him? And this troubles me because I don't think he's the only man to have that kind of reaction and in their anger they forget to correctly contextualize the issues. My father was complaining that now with the #metoo movement, everything is concidered sexual assault and you can't be sure what is consentual or not , but I think that it's great that we are talking about these issues so that people can communicate better with their partnerns and pay more attention to how they feel . As you said, the discussion is not about whether or not this should be concidered rape, but rather about boundaries, which are often very hard to define and can be confusing.

[@alyssalakey]

But I’m genuinely baffled by how anyone could not be SURE of what’s consensual?? Yes = CONSENT, literally anything else but an enthusiastic yes = NO. Why would you want to have to TALK someone into having sex with you??? Why would you keep pushing if someone seems hesitant or unsure?? Idk. It’s just really strange to me that like... okay, example: if you ask someone if they’d like a piece of cake and they answer something like “that’s okay” or they just shake their head no or something, but don’t specifically say no, people still take that as a no, and they let it go. But when it comes to intimacy, men suddenly can’t understand anything that isn’t an explicit “NO I don’t want this” and sometimes don’t even take that for an answer??? Boundaries just seem pretty simple to me. We adhere to them in so many ways in everyday life. This isn’t against you at all btw!! This just like confuses and bothers me so much and I don’t get it.

[@alyssalakey]

K LaCoste you know, it’s funny you say that because I literally just scripted a video about this very thing recently. I get this, and when I was a teenager, I sort of felt that way too. It’s because women are taught to see men as the aggressors in relationships-men are supposed to make all the moves. They’re supposed to sweep you off your feet & be “romantic” and like you said, asking kills the mood because it’s not as spontaneous or whatever. It shouldn’t be that way. I got older and now I find the idea of a man asking endearing and don’t think it’s weird at all, but so many adult women never come around to thinking that. And it does happen in movies sometimes, however rare, that a man will ask. But still, despite that, kissing in comparison to trying to have sex is relatively innocuous. If someone doesn’t want or like it, no harm done. But if the person you’re with seems uncomfortable and keeps making excuses to not keep going, they’re saying no without firmly saying it. Some people, women especially, have problems being assertive because it comes across as “bitchy” so they say no in more polite ways. It just seems like if someone is not like 100% super enthusiastically into what you’re doing, why would you even want to continue??

[@CyberusSuper]

@@alyssalakey Is it that hard to just say, "Sorry, but I'm not interested?" Why should i have to do research for something that should be clean cut?

[@alyssalakey]

@@CyberusSuper is it that hard to read someone’s body language? You should be able to clearly tell if someone isn’t into it and is just doing it because they’re afraid to say no. If they don’t seem eager or they make excuses, it’s a no. Not to mention that a lot of women do say they aren’t interested and either get manipulated (“come on, please? you’ll give me blue balls. you’d do it if you liked me/loved me”, etc) or outright forced. It’d be wonderful if we lived in a world where women (and men, frankly, because it happens to them too) could feel safe to communicate that easily, but we don’t. No one said you had to do research. It IS clean cut-if they don’t seem that into it, back off. Anything that isn’t a “hell yes” is a “hell no”. It’s that simple. If you’re that worried about it or bothered by it, don’t be intimate with people. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@isa0ber]

i'm so thankful that grace spoke out about this. i've said "CAN YOU TAKE A HINT FROM MY BODY LANGUAGE" to men before and got completely ignored. i still don't know what to call my traumatic experience but i finally feel entitled to my feelings about it and that's a huge step for me

[@saffodils]

Sabine you're talking to a person for whom something like this happened, can you maybe pick a different debate partner?

[@RickNelsonMn]

I agree, and I've read and heard too much about this. Marina, you, up thread Neanderthal are all correct about consent was mistepped here to the point that Aziz went very near rape, and a long discussion can conclude assault. I'm tired of the long discussion. Rape would have occurred if he had actually penetrated her with his fingers, and he tried. That he put them in her mouth... well, there I go... and I want to step back to consent. She had an expectation during the date, and in retrospect noticed Aziz's rush during dinner meant he had horndog on the brain, or his dick was leading him that night. She relates that they barely got in and he was making his play. I want to insert the idea of the human response of acquiesce, or FAWN, by Pete Walker in here. Look it up if you're interested. The mind has response mechanisms to stress, Fight, Flight, Freeze, Fawn, Submit, or Attach play their roles and hybrids exist according to Pete Walker. This aside is to segue to how Grace basically froze, and then acquiesced to please Aziz because Fawn response is what some people do. Being codependent can explain Fawn response, and in many ways how we give of ourselves at our expense. In some situations where the expectations are different, Aziz vs Grace, and they were, Aziz set up his hound dog act and went all out for sex with Grace. She was put upon and the reality is that the power dynamic was mismatched. Not just age, but it's Aziz!! She would be excited for his attention, but when he got all hands and pushy, things went very fast. Yes, assault can happen that fast, and consent not asked, consent of some act of a BJ, does not mean that the person is ready, comfortable, nor wanting what's happening to continue. Aziz pushed her where she did finally say no, and tried to end the sexual encounter, to just relax and chill, but his dick brain kept him at her. She had to get up and leave, cry and then realize with support from friends that he took advantage, pushed and doubled efforts, many times, and acted like the dick brained idiot that he is. Well, I went much farther than I expected, but this vid by Marina is the first that's agreed with my view wholly and then there are those here concurring. I feel it's safe enough that support for my writing is maybe 50/50? I expect the dregs of illogic and time wasters might lash out, f-it. I really like these videos and support those who demand consent with body language and just respecting boundaries. Rape culture is a huge problem. Best wishes and blessings to Fem Friday crowd. Thanks if you read all this, and get it.

[@jj78791]

Body language is subject to interpretation. It may not be picked up, not everyone is perceptive. Those on the autism spectrum would more than likely miss it. Words however dont have these problems. Use them.

[@melli2110]

Thanks for raising awareness for #JusticeForJane, I actually did not know about this issue 😳 Also: your sick voice is so adorbs omg ❤

[@greenghost2008]

What should aspergers men do who know they are bad at verbal cues?

[@LettersAndLeaves]

Ask! (I'm an autistic woman)

[@marinashutup]

That's a great question! I think if you're on the autism spectrum it's really important to be upfront and say you need explicit verbal communication and make sure to keep asking how your partner is doing.

[@TheSaidame]

​@@marinashutup Does that apply for the woman ? to ask the man if he is feeling confortable and for permission ?

[@mikailagray]

I get what you are saying and I have also been in a situation where I didnt specifically say no and said other things like 'oh i gotta go" to get out of the situation i was not comfortable but i didn't blame the guy for not knowing I was uncomfortable, I also didn't blame myself, instead I learned that me being straight forwards is the most important thing and I've carried that knowledge through various situations. I think it is unfair to place all of your hesitation on a person, the person in my situation had no power over me, we were both in high school, i didn't feel intimidated by him etc, it was mostly just that I was/am a go with the flow type of person and sometimes thats bad and sometimes its not but i had to reflect on my own character think about how I can effectively communicate better with others when the flow thats going is not the one I wanna be on.

[@abdvilliers222]

The reaction to the Aziz Ansari piece made me realize how hypocritical liberals can be about such issues. So much of the rationalizations and dismissing of this situation came from people who think Aziz is woke bae and therefore can't exhibit problematic behavior. If we're going to show that we really care about this issue, we can't just be critical when the perpetrator is someone we don't like.

[@Melizande]

Hi Marina! Thanks for making this video. I wanted to focus on one really petty, minute detail and get your/others’ opinion on it. You mentioned that a lot of the scrutiny was focused around whether or not the experience constitutes a crime, to which you rightfully pointed out that she isn’t pressing charges and isn’t even using her real name in publishing her story. It’s makes me wonder: is it fair then that she specifically called out Aziz by name and published his name in her article, versus preserving his anonymity and just having the conversation for its own sake? From a libel/slander standpoint, that’s a pretty messy situation. I guess my point is, I can understand that people are taking a legal/criminal approach to dissecting the situation because whether or not she’s pressing charges, she is firing across the bow in a way that could have tangible impact on his life/livelihood if embraced with similar fervor to other stories surfacing with the #metoo movement. In a sense, she’s “pressing charges”, just not in a courtroom.

[@XenaSophia]

The way you talked about body language and consent in this video is troubling to me, as an autistic person, because I know that I often can't understand the types of cues you described. I try to tell people that I need direct, clear, verbal cues from them in order to understand what they are communicating in most social contexts, and when those cues are not given, it is frustrating and upsetting to be told that I did something wrong by not understanding a type of communication that I had already disclosed as being confusing at best and incomprehensible at worst to me. As an AFAB person I understand the tendency towards worrying that direct, verbal communication will be taken badly, but in cases where someone has explicitly asked for that type of communication, not providing it is inconsiderate at best and dangerous at worst. While I have yet to engage in intimate sexual or romantic relationships, I am terrified that I might miss the types of cues you described and hurt someone because of it. Is there anything I can do other than ask for verbal cues and hope for the best?

[@eli6343]

You can also ask questions as you go. 'Can I do x?' 'Is this ok?' 'Do you want to y?' etc

[@marinashutup]

That's a great point! Yeah, I think all you can really do is be upfront and say you have trouble understanding non-verbal cues and continually ask how your partner is doing. Aziz isn't on the spectrum, but yeah it gets really complicated though if the other person won't communicate verbally after you've told them you need that. If they're not saying a lot though, I would be honest and say that you're confused if they're into it or not. If they continue not to communicate, I would just stop because it seems like your communication styles might be at odds.

[@XenaSophia]

marinashutup Communication is quite complicated, that's for sure. Thank you for responding!

[@poisoncontrol4488]

marinashutup How do you know he isn't on the spectrum? He actually might be.

[@jessicatroup923]

Hi there, not explicitly related to this video but would you ever consider doing a Reading List/Book Recommendations video? Like feminist/women, gender, sexuality studies book favorites? From your time in school or otherwise

[@miraclesage8622]

The fact that so many men think Aziz's behavior was okay is crazy

[@left4deadR]

Cry

[@carolsimpson4422]

I'm pretty sure that these types of men are reading the cues perfectly.

[@remedywithin]

Happy to be in your online class of feminism. I’ll never receive this in my own state. Thank You!

[@alejandrotorves6483]

She turned the situation of not being able to back any negative response with actions, she stained the reputation of a person by allowing a social media tell a story that has too much obscure and contradictory details. He didn't commit rape, and some here are saying that giving oral sex is not the same as consent, come on. She could have left the place, it is simple as that.

[@shadybiz434]

I appreciate your perspective. Thank you for posting, even though I'm late watching. Lots to think about and consider

[@zeromega4541]

This is so foreign to me. Maybe because I grew up in a culture were women aren't shy about speaking up but it boggles my mind that someone especially a woman would except a violation in order to save face.

[@NoCommonSense9]

Zero Mega it's super common, yeah! i mean, whenever i get catcalled or anything like that, i just freeze up- i can't imagine how i would handle full-on sexual assault. it's great that women in your community seem to feel secure in being more assertive!

[@katiestolealltheunicorns9309]

Zero Mega It's not to save face though, women have different instincts in stressful or frightening situations, 'tend and mend' rather than 'fight or flight', which makes it instinctively more difficult to act assertively in situations where you might feel unsafe.

[@poisoncontrol4488]

I would not accept a violation either. I would vote with my feet and simply walk out the door and call a uber. I would not stay and give a blowjob.

[@PogieJoe]

Excellent analysis of the whole situation!

[@snakesnoteyes]

I’m a lesbian, and I’m still trying to unpack and grow away the idea that I “owe” dudes sex, especially in situations that are already dodgy.

[@moustik31]

Candace Sanders good for you and good luck on your journey :-)

[@LettersAndLeaves]

I agree with everything you've said but what this comment section needs more of is acknowledgement of how adorable your cat is. Also, drink something hot with honey in it!

[@marinashutup]

I agree! Stewart needs more appreciation! And yes, currently drinking chamomile tea with honey :)

[@Lamia-666]

I'm a completely off topic person, so I apologize.Your cat is soooooo cute, they were blinking sooooo much!!!!! Good video!

[@ericfranks3736]

I agree that men should endeavor to be more cognizant of the body language(and verbal language) of their partners when engaging or attempting to engage in sexual activity. But we also have to realize that (generally speaking) men are less able to make fine distinctions about partner intent when in a state of sexual arousal. Even less so when they don't really know the person they are with. I think that is the biggest problem. It sounds old fashion but really getting to know someone before having sex with them is an excellent way to get familiar with their signaling, thereby avoiding miscommunication which I think was culprit here.

[@RickNelsonMn]

Which is why, hound dogging from the moment the door closed is sick-sad-world BS. Aziz went all in the moment they entered his place. Not cool, no finesse, she wasn't given time to think and I'm not giving him a pass on this one. He's f'ed up this, and I wish more men wanted to take time, that's cool of you to note. I agree men have the testosterone hitting down cognitive over animal impulse problem. But, the cool thing to do is see if there's a mood. Man, mood, and a bit of time to explore it the mood is right, that just seems so enjoyable. I'm a bit old, not just old fashioned.

[@sarahmultimedia]

I think that people just seemed to compare here story to other stories that have been coming out. For example saying it's not as bad as stuff that happened with Harvey Weinstein. Even if it isn't..its still awful. If something like that happened to me I would not feel like "this isn't as bad as other experiences people have had so I shouldn't feel terrible". We shouldn't be comparing the stories to dictate how victims should feel. Sure, if she was pressing charges I don't think Aziz should be punished as much as someone like Harvey. But she isn't so it's nothing to do with it. I also think there was a lot of bad takes because what Aziz did is super common.

[@PumpkinMozie]

Excellent video and super important/usually ignored topic! Thank you

[@artemismeow]

Appreciate the 1 in 3 shout-out. I'll look into that x(

[@cubetita]

It made me sick all the victim blaming surrounding this, especially when we're doing #metoo now... like seriously made me feel ill. I even saw other "feminists" bashing her and saying it was just a bad date and blah blah blah. It was shocking and scary how many people felt this way when it was CLEARLY harassment and assault. I'm glad you brought up the whole legality part, because there's been a lot of fucked up shit that's been technically legal before... just because something is legal doesn't always mean it's right.Thank you for making this video! It's nice to see other people who saw the situation for what it really was.

[@agirlwithdreams15]

I ignored this story for a while, but man I'm glad I eventually did because I had an experience with an ex. I told him to stop and went silent, and he continued. I said stop again and he stopped. It tramuatized me so much and throught out our relationship that I could not have sex again with him. I struggled a lot with deciding whether it wasnt rape or it was. So thank you so much.

[@carmenliz22]

You said it so perfectly!

[@CD-ru1ep]

A little late to the party but your comment on politeness as a method of deescalation in a situation massively stood out to me. This continuously comes up in conversation with other woman after encounters of harassment. So many woman speak about how they are frustrated that they didn't stand up for themselves and do the 'feminist thing', but it always comes down to personal safety. It easy to look back at things in hindsight, but when you are living in the moment it is Russian roulette. Hell, sometimes it simply comes down to convenience. Woman have lives to live, and can't always take the time to educate those around them. I think this is actually one of the biggest reasons for the continuation of gender inequality. Also, just a secondary point of the whole checking in with consent. Obviously the most important point is to check for consent, but this is also just about being a good sexual partner. Maybe your partner is down to party, but you need to check in with them to make sure they're having an equally good time.

[@saffodils]

i see a lot of comments about misreading body language, but i wonder if this phenomenon is more about not knowing what to do with what signals you're getting. like, he probably could tell that she was uncomfortable, but his idea was to keep going and convince her when it should have been to stop. so this should be about what you do when your partner is uncomfortable or unsure; i think that's what our culture needs to work on.

[@NoWuvDeep]

They just met each other so they can easily misread each other. When you are in a long term relationship, you can tell if your partner is not in the mood even if they don't verbalize it. We have a lot of sexual assault cases because of the hookup culture doesn't seem to have clear cut rules. It has a lot grey areas. If someone wants to hook up with someone they just met, open communication is important. To me they both failed at that.

[@Randomstuffs261]

Marina, what's that in that watery jar next to your lamp bro?

[@marinashutup]

They're moss balls! I love them.

[@Randomstuffs261]

Fuck, you're cool dude

[@jchannel3033]

this article really hit home for me thank u for talking about this

[@medtle1]

Marina, have you seen how this story about Aziz and Grace split the Asian community? I wasn't shocked by the reactions, but I saw a TON of cis, straight Asian men (and typically cis, straight Asian women that try way too hard to prove to that they aren't anti-Asian-male) defending Aziz and claiming that Grace is trying to "ruin" his career after he won an award. The only Asians that are on Grace's side are Asian feminists (like the ones on Reappropriate and Everyday Feminism) and LGBTQ+ Asians.

[@marinashutup]

Yeah, I got a few messages from people saying that I was being discriminatory towards Asians and I was like...dude I'm Asian. (I'm not South Asian though which may have been what they meant.)

[@medtle1]

Ouch. Unfortunately, I am not surprised by that. Interesting thing is, a lot of Asian feminists (typically female and the ones that don't subscribe to the Laci-Green-way of thinking coughcoughlikeElizacoughRomerocoughcough; not just the South Asian feminists but East and Southeast Asian feminists as well) and black feminists have been complaining about Aziz Ansari WAY before the Aziz and Grace story has been brought to light. Interesting that a lot of cis, straight Asian men would rather listen to someone like Heather B. Johnson Yu (who isn't Asian but is married to one and has made several ignorant comments about Asian women and shown her white privilege several times when it comes to interacting with Asian men coughcoughlikeJcoughTcoughTrancoughcough) or an Asian woman that tries way too hard to prove she's "one of the guys" coughcoughElizacoughcoughcoughRomerocoughcoughcoughRoamingcoughcoughcoughMillenialcoughcoughcoughcough than a female Asian feminist when it comes to issues that concern Asian women. (Interestingly, a lot of these guys were crushing on Tila Tequila before she was exposed as a Trump supporter while a lot of Asian women have been critical of her for years. They also tend to be the same guys who LOVE spouting anti-feminist, misogynistic myths like "Asian women are more privileged than Asian men" and "cis, straight Asian men are one of the least privileged people in society; lowest on the totem pole" while they conveniently forget that cis, straight Asian men are joining misogynistic movements like MRA, PUA, incel, MGTOW, Red Pill, and the alt-right at very high rates and out of all of the Asian Trump supporters and sympathizers, majority of them were cis, straight, and male.) Similar scenarios have happened when it was about Eddie Huang and Ryan Higa. After the reactions from die-hard Linsanity fans when Jeremy defended a white basketball player that said a racist slur, Jeremy Lin might be next based on the controversial events he has been involved in. A lot of LGBTQ+ people (not just the Asian ones) were on Grace's side as well; even noting how cis, straight people seem to have issues when it comes to consent and boundaries within relationships. This is something I have noticed for a while and based on people's reactions to stories like this, it seems to ring true. People like Aziz Ansari, Eddie Huang, Ryan Higa, and Jeremy Lin are for cis, straight men. (I don't typically see guys like this praised in LGBTQ+ communities or feminist spaces.)

[@oof-rr5nf]

I am Indian. The culture around rape here is unbelievably toxic. So it does not surprise me that Asians refused to support the victim in this situation! Just goes to show the non-resident Indians still remember their culture's "roots" :D :D :D (Sarcasm, sarcasm. That was heavily sarcastic.)

[@satanshameer690]

@@oof-rr5nf Yet you are proud of being a filthy brahmin

[@oof-rr5nf]

@@satanshameer690 . . . No? I am not. I do not even identify as one. Want nothing to do with the caste and religion I was born into. There is no need to demean the group with the word "filthy" though. I do not see how that helps.

[@andiehernandez1995]

As always, a great analysis Marina. I have South Asian ancestry and I really hope this incident doesn't unchain racism or fear (in sexual scenarios or others) towards South Asian men. When white cis straight men are accused of sexual assault society doesn't blink, but when (cis straight) men of color, (cis straight) women or LGBTQIA+ people are accused... OMG society blows up. I saw this with the Melanie Martinez situation where she was accused of having non consensual sex after a female friend of hers published something in social media saying Melanie insisted so much with "sexual exploration" that after getting tired of it she finally "acceded" (non-consensually). A lot of people said stuff like "feminists aren't talking about this because it's a woman who had non consensual sex with another woman". And there were of course a lot of people who didn't believe this girl because of victim blaming and the inability to see non-heterosexual women as sexual assault perpetrators.

[@RickNelsonMn]

I don't think this goes beyond what two people had to deal with. Adding the nuance though, the concern you have is understood in our current Trump climate, but I'm trying to convey there are level heads out here in the real world.

[@MrThankeesai]

I'd just say to understand that the lack of "being sure" and maybe lack of clarity is completely not gender specific. Miscommunication of this sort can occur with both. I think, personally, that this might be a case where neither person is a monster. The failure to communicate is the antagonist, and hopefully both learned something to assist them in better navigating the world.

[@entertain7us148]

I think the backlash to the original story was not so much that the girl didn't deserve to feel upset or violated, but rather that she came forward at a time when other women were coming forward with stories of sexual assault, harassment or rape. Most people felt it was unfairly being lumped into those categories. i think anyone could accept that, while Aziz didn't do anything criminal, his lack of communication and empathy was just extremely shitty. As a society we just need to be clear about where sexual misconduct falls on a pyramid: on the first tier you would have lack of communication or empathy, on the second you would have harassment, on the third you would have sexual assault, and on the top you would have rape.

[@missylarsson3517]

Yeah, I feel like a lot of people are confused about criminal sexual behaviour and shitty sexual behaviour. All shitty behaviour is not criminal but we should still be able to speak about it and critisize it anyways. However, since people obviously can’t tell the difference I disagree with Marina. it is important to point out when we speak about crime and when we talk about grey areas, miscommunication etc. That is my opinion.

[@entertain7us148]

I completely agree. My problems with the Aziz situation is not the girl's feeling of upset and violation. I have total sympathy for her. And I think it is important to talk about the issues she raised. My issue is the sheer *timing* of her decision to come out with this story! When the national dialogue currently focusses on criminal behaviour, you coming out with a story about shitty sexual conduct, you do huge damage to the movement as a whole, because you make outsiders less likely to take actual criminal charges seriously, you discredit the face of feminism in general (already a very fragile thing in the eyes of most Americans), and you simply cause confusion among people who would otherwise be on board with the MeToo movement, because now they either believe that criminal and shitty sexual conduct are the same thing, or they believe that that is what feminists believe.

[@jackyoh971]

Thank you ! you seem you are the only one I agree in the comment. Even I feel sorry for what happen to her. The timing punish him too much for something he already apologize to her also.

[@entertain7us148]

because now the vast majority of conversations that took place about the Aziz situation (disregarding the obnoxious, snide remarks about how Grace needed to get over herself and how men aren't mind readers and she should feel ashamed of herself) went like this: was it sexual assault or just a bad date? Here's the thing: no one, not Grace, not her publisher, not the people defending her, EVER said that it was sexual assault. The tone of the entire article was one of describing a date that went very poorly and made her feel awful. That doesn't HAVE to mean sexual assault! I hate it when the mainstream dialogue perpetuates the attitude that if it's not criminal behaviour, it's not worth talking about. The main dialogue on the Aziz ish turned into "it's not sexual assault so what the hell are you upset about". The timing totally prevented having any serious conversation about the things that can happen during sexual activity that aren't necessarily illegal but do broach the lines of consent and can traumatise a person.

[@mizinhas]

The cat ❤❤❤❤❤

[@courtney7422]

This is kind of operating under the assumption that everyone has the same level of social awareness when it comes to other people. And that’s not true, there are many people, both men and women, who don’t understand some social cues. I really think that it’s down to the individual to express with words whether they are comfortable or not. And saying women are socialized to not be vocal in these situations is something to be considered, but so is acknowledging that progress isn’t going to be made when people act passively. No one in this situation was ‘wrong’ but a person did leave it feeling powerless, and how could it be changed so that she didn’t? Either he could have been more aware or she could have been more vocal. I only see you advocating for one of those options, when we should be encouraging both.

[@courtney7422]

Hayley X Which is what I’m saying. However, I wanted to point out that the video doesn’t say this. Every party, is responsible for communication, both in delivering and in understanding; there are circumstances in which one might fail in one, or both, of these areas, which doesn’t make them a bad person nor does it put them at fault for a situation. I just feel that body language is a terrible standard to set for communication. It’s a passive language which can easily be misinterpreted. And in the heat of the moment, people won’t be paying as much attention to details as they would in another situation. My point is body language isn’t a reliable language, to communicate or understand, and it’s going to keep leading to situations like this because there an array of people who don’t have these skills. Making a video, and putting the responsibility of communicate solely on one party isn’t going to really lead anywhere. Sadly, it’s not going to fix the problem.

[@courtney7422]

Hayley X It does make sense, yes. And I do see your side, I agree with it. We are on the same page; it is up to the active party to get enthusiastic consent, and accept a lack of enthusiasm as a substitute for a no. My issue is with how the video discusses certain things and how it doesn’t. Using a form of communication like body language, which is really passive, runs the risk of a delayed reaction or of being misinterpreted. And saying that, body language is an acceptable form of communication to express distress, implying that it is easily understood, and that communicate essentially falls to one person, makes me feel like this video looked at part of a picture without looking at the whole. It is easier for the active part to stop, but it’s also faster for the distressed party to make their distress known. There is always going to be situations where one works better than the other. Where a person may be more attentive, or situations where body language can be observed more and where it can’t. I just feel like the video makes a blanket statement where only one person is responsible for communication.

[@TheSaidame]

6:49 " it just means the person is not comfortable around you to speak up" But was comfortable enough around the person to take of her cloths ? Cmon ... I am trying to agree with this video but i am having a hard time ....

[@PristianoPenaldoSUIIII]

Excellent video, as usual.

[@ruaoneill9050]

I think it's completely fucked up that we live in a society where people are completely ok with having sex with someone who is clearly not into having sex with them, like, all they need is to think that they can get away with it, not caring AT ALL about the other person's experience. I am firmly of the belief that if it's not an enthusiastic, uncoerced yes, stay away because otherwise it's rape

[@pseudonamed]

it is disturbing that many men can enjoy having sex with a partner who's clearly not into it. I don't understand how that works.

[@bonjouritsizzy3405]

Men should be held accountable bottom line, famous men (regardless if you are a poc) should ALSO be held accountable.

[@ramywiles]

This conversation has died down now, but I've just come back to this, and I have a few (a lot of) things to get off my chest. Thanks for your patience with the incoming novel, lol. It was honestly *really* hard not to internalize the backlash to this story and take it as justification for staying largely quiet about what happened to me. My former boyfriend coerced me into several of my first sexual experiences and manipulated me sexually and emotionally throughout and past the end of our relationship, and I haven't publicized it because I'm still Facebook friends with some of our mutual friends, and I don't want questions. I don't want to open myself up to "objectivity" and doubt from people I know, especially because I spent so much time doubting myself when I started seeing these conversations about sexual abuse, and also because I know I don't remember absolutely everything that happened anymore; it's been five years since the end of it. I remember enough, though. I said no at the start of the first experience, he told me that I "might as well lose it to someone who cares about [me]" and then sulked until I caved, and I had a genuine walk of shame (and disgust with myself) afterward... but I didn't say no in the moment. I didn't really say anything in the moment. For a while I was just laying there, bewildered that something sexual was happening to me. When I actually had p-in-v sex for the first time, I wasn't enthusiastically giving my consent. It felt very clinical. I was just thinking that I might as well get it over with. He also gradually introduced me to some of the more vanilla BDSM practices he was into, and the expectation was very much that I would go along and try it out, because that's how sexual exploration works?? Now that I'm in a healthy relationship with a man who loves me dearly and actually respects me, being in this situation has fully opened my eyes to just how uneven and how wrong those first times were. My first sexual experiences weren't about mutual pleasure, but rather about bringing me up to speed, and it took me five years, a differently unhealthy relationship in between, a lot of self-doubt, a lot of self-exploration, and a far more up close and personal understanding of what love should look like to articulate that. But would I say I was raped or even assaulted? Talking it through has made me more comfortable with calling the behavior manipulative and the experience traumatic, but I can barely make the leap to "abusive", let alone jumping to terms that have such fraught conversations surrounding them. I've seen the argument that coerced sex is rape because it's still sex that occurs in the absence of actual consent, and I think that's one hundred percent reasonable, but it's hard to make that connection in my own case. I've paid attention to the conversations surrounding rape and assault... what happened to me doesn't seem to qualify. And, what's more, I'm absolutely not looking to press charges. I never want to see him again in my life.

[@Mastikator]

When Grace said no Aziz backed off. What more can you ask of Aziz?

[@marinashutup]

Reread the article cause that’s not what happened.

[@Mastikator]

You're right that's not true. He didn't give her an opportunity to (not) consent.

[@TheFrustratedHistorian]

Another great video. Hit the nail on the head perfectly regarding the Aziz Ansari situation.

[@Avrysatos]

I hit play on the video and the first thing I saw was the most adorable cat ever. I understand this is completely irrelevant but that is an adorable cat. I might leave a more relevant comment after I watch the video if I have thoughts I want to share.

[@ireallyreallyhategoogle]

Great take on it. If only people could learn what consent is. Basic respectful human interactions should be thought from a young age, but obviously they aren't.

[@zweck4629]

I got one question though, how many women would apply the same standart of positive consent when they are with a guy? I dont think many would even consider that he feels pressured or not into it and stop when theyre horny. This seems quite connected to the old patriarchal "women must protected like children" standart. That said teaching people to properly say "no" when they feel uncomfortable and trying not to pressure people into things they dont want could help with many situations.

[@dd1987x]

Video is all serious and then Stewart pops up 6 minutes in, making love eyes behind you. lol.

[@phoebe543]

Ok but is there an ablist aspect to expecting all men to be able to pick up on non verbal communication.

[@NoCommonSense9]

Phoebe nah? if you have difficulties with that sort of thing then you should make clear to those around you that you need explicit verbal consent- if you aren't or can't be sure, then just asking "hey, do you definitely want to do this?" is enough. as long as you create a safe environment in which the other person feels safe in refusing. it's unfortunate, but being bad at picking up cues isn't an excuse- that should be something that you should bring into account in situations like this.

[@josephinegrant8941]

What a beautiful tuxedo cat

[@Laura-ku5fl]

That cat is creepin

[@kaleksykt]

thank u for making videos! love your human garbage disposal voice

[@guestuser7655]

Saddly ive been on dates like this. Recently I met a guy at a store. I was ordering things from. During the date he always tried to kiss me, which i said no. I deflected his advances at touching my body. He even told me i could touch him where ever. I did not. I was just worried to up set him. He had access to my personal info. I didn't want a stalker. So i told him, i felt sick then bolted out of there. He followed me to my car. Persisted on a kiss i finally offered my hand for a kiss. He pulled me in toching me everywhere while kissing me. I could feel the tears coming. When i got home he texted me if i got home safe. He asked for a second date. I would just delete his number. If he did not have access to my address. So replied as nice as possible that i just wanted to be friend. I had no intentions if being his friend. I gladly never heard from him again. Now i avoid that store. Im not blaming men. Don't take women as someone you have to conquer. Women should say yes clearly but men should wait for that clear yes.

[@Fallout2Forever]

Jesus, that last bit was os depressing, just like almost all aborite issues. Thanks for shaing it!

[@iansmart4158]

I feel as though Aziz was 90 percent wrong in that situation and don't wanna come off insensitive. I just have a question. I've heard the take that Grace going along with said sexual acts could be read as a nonverbal cue to Aziz that this girl was looking to get physical and that the need for definite yes of consent should also extend to a definite no as well, so what do you guys think of these perspectives and is there any way that a man misreading a situation would make him a victim of the moment as well. A man not so empathetic may not be so quick to pick up on nonverbal cues (although Aziz should have been the one to notice them). Also the idea of a "hook-up" is also something that exists; should men make expectations of only wanting something physical clear upfront instead of hinting at that through a "rushed dinner and sexually aggressive behavior". Again I don't mean to put the blame on this young lady I only wanna know how women may view these POVs in assessing the article.

[@sabrinagranger5468]

I'm sorry, Marina. I'm trying to listen to what you're saying but all I can focus on is the black cat ominously looming over your left shoulder. It's a really witchy aesthetic and I love it. Ok, now to rewatch and actually listen.

[@brookewinslow1364]

Thank you for this video!!

[@JoeMacStevens]

My issue with the whole thing is that it was a private affair. I know that men can be too aggressive and selfish when it comes to sex and they can put a lot of pressure on women. I think it’s a horrible thing to do, however I think that it should be dealt with between the man and the woman. There were no reason for her to report it to the news and call out Aziz by name. It’s a worthwhile conversation but it wasn’t a situation where Aziz needed to be embarrassed publicly like that.

[@seanmatthewking]

I don’t agree. I think this is the main way these conversations progress. If she didn’t say anything, we wouldn’t be talking about it in the first place. I think we all agree there is a line beyond which some things need to be public knowledge. It’s just a matter of what we think the line is. Yes, it’s a tough burden for Aziz, but he is at least in part responsible for getting himself into this situation. And it doesn’t make me think Aziz is a bad person, I think he made a mistake. The important thing in my mind is they we improve as individuals, improve as a society, and better educated the next generations. Sex-ed needs nuanced discussions of consent. And even though this stuff should be common sense for empathetic people, thinking is distorted by sex drive (and often alcohol). As we have more public conversations over time, everyone’s understanding of consent will become better and more nuanced.

[@Notorietypulp]

Men: If women wouldn't feel comfortable saying no because they feel in danger, they shouldn't have sex with that person! Also men: Why will no women have sex with me? Must be feminism or something

[@entertain7us148]

Honestly, it doesn't matter if they don't say no. It only matters if they don't say Yes! Whether they're actively rejecting you or passively accepting you without saying yes or no, in both situations you don't have their consent.

[@gloomy9728]

The only problem I really have with this situation is the fact that she made these accusations anonymously. The 6th Amendment clearly states that the person accused has the right to face their accuser. Many women are taking advantage of being anonymous in order to successfully accuse a man and not receive any backlash from the accused in the process. Don't get me wrong I'm not against her and her unfortunate situation, it's just that these things should still adhere to the current laws in place. If Aziz Ansari knows who's accusing him, then forget I said anything.

[@NoCommonSense9]

_EBG i'm pretty sure he does- he acknowledged the accusation and said that he remembered the incident. she described what happened- unless he's had multiple identical dates, i think that the man can put two and two together. he's a smart dude.

[@gloomy9728]

Fair enough. Forget I said anything.

[@kmaya1024]

Sick Marina sounds like Shailene Woodley?

[@marinashutup]

What do you mean?

[@TheSaidame]

If you dont know the person that well why are you having sex with them in the fist place ? ... 4:54

[@JoeyJ0J0]

I just gave up on sex and dating

[@TheSugarRay]

Sick marina sounds like the childvoice my conscience uses.

[@izzypearce6115]

the pattern of your shirt makes me cringe because my school skirt is the same and ew

[@Mxrlou]

The slogan of the anti-sexual harassment campaign at my university is « Without yes, it’s no! » I think it’s a good way to describe consent

[@chrisiousity]

Thanks for this.

[@NoWuvDeep]

It's because you see this woman as a victim by default. The rest of us don't know who the victim is. It could be her. It could be Aziz. It's a bunch of he said, she said with no proof. The slippery slope is when you choose to be anonymous and accuse someone of something big and if we consider this a norm, people can just come out anonymously and start throwing accusations and ruin someone else's career without any repercussions whatsoever. It's vigilante justice (if there's even any justice to be achieved) and should not be encouraged. We can still discuss about many women being nice and agreeable and that sometimes puts us in situations we didn't want to be without throwing others under the bus. Feminism encourages women to be strong, independent, outspoken, etc but yet this woman couldn't say no until the end. If she can't say a simple no, she shouldn't be dating alone. At least go on double dates with a friend to look after her because she is not independent.

[@NoCommonSense9]

No Wuv Deep 80808 if so, then shouldn't people not date if they're unable to read body language, or unwilling to give up on a sexual encounter without trying to pressure the other party? that would knock a lot of men out of the dating market. also- people don't know how they might act in a situation until they're in it. it's easy to imagine yourself as the assertive one who puts the other in their place- but it works differently in real life. i think it's more worrisome that she's expected to prepare for a potential sexual assault when just trying to go on a date with a guy she likes.

[@NoWuvDeep]

Body language is different from person to person. It's harder to read someone you just met especially if they gave you oral sex in between. That's why I said hookup culture has a lot of grey areas. Both should have been more vocal. Yes, I do think Aziz shouldn't been hooking up either if he couldn't ask a simple Q. Both of them sound like they are socially awkward. No, I've been in her position before as a teenager when I was shy and awkward but I always kept my friends around so nothing serious had happened.

[@Kaathe34]

For someone who has not heard this controversy or read the article. I just want to put my view out there that this does feel that the nature of this video is to state that he was in the wrong. There is no reference to what she said or his side of the argument or anything at all about him or her. The main reason I clicked on this video was beacuse I saw the cherry picked bad photo of him on the thumbnail taht sets the viewer up to go into the video against him with no natural view. I whole heartedly agree that this is a major problem especially with people in any power (in this case social) but he should be considered innocent till proven guilty and there is no context to the event apart from putting him in the wrong as a jump off point to a real issue. So yh... please don't put him on display as in the wrong if you arnt going to at least give evidence or reading for it other then the word of one person (and even then show reference to what they said when talking about it so people who have no idea like me just think the worst of him) thanks please don't attack me for this. Open to opinions :)

[@vyshious]

Honestly, the picture of him is fine. He's dressed up well and has no particular expression on his face. The discussion in the video isn't about him, it's about this woman's experience. The video isn't a trial or call to boycott his work at all, but primarily a discussion about what consent looks like in general and the lessons women have been taught about themselves that put them in jeopardy. This is a learning opportunity for everyone.

[@Kaathe34]

vyshious then I would ask why not just have a video on this topic and involve him at all? I mean his names in the title and the beginning of the thumb nail. And that is a bad picture of him. He looks weary and uncomfortable. I'm just saying this whole videos foundations are on this one man and not a bigger issue. I'm not sure if this is for views but I can't say it's relevant to what she's said as it is said with no context . And this is a man's livelihood

[@A2daM2daZ]

edd Gent you just said you didn't read the article and weren't aware of what happened. The way she made this video was responding to the issues brought up by the controversy not explaining it. She's not arguing either case rather taking a meta-textual look at what OTHER commenters and reactors have said about the situation.

[@marinashutup]

Also I just wanna point out that the pic was from the article and was taken on the night Grace was describing.

[@JohnDoe-tt6en]

Pressuring someone into unwanted sex is bad (I agree it doesn't have to be rape or sexual assault or something that should be illegal in order to be unethical) but it's not a violation of consent. Body language is subjective. I don't want to go into detail on this specific case (there's a lot I don't know) or the general worldview in the video. Many men are accused of sexual assault when they either 'reasonably' assumed there was consent (maybe it was clearly implied by the increasingly sexualized nature of the interaction initiated or tolerated by the women or the women feel they initially consented but later felt that their partners should have been perceptive to their changing attitude etc. - I don't want to go into detail or really think through my response) or consent that was given was viewed in retrospect as invalid because the women regret it for various reasons (and they have an ideological bias that influences how they interpret the interaction and the concept of consent) and maybe view themselves as having been 'manipulated' (which doesn't necessarily involve a violation of consent even if you think it's wrong for whatever reasons) etc. Nobody should be pressured into sex but you also have a responsibility to voice your disapproval if someone is touching you in a way that they assume is both wanted and consensual (they are two different things - you can consent to something you don't want and you can want something you don't consent to) -that may not apply to people who initiate first contact without explicit consent but it applies to most scenarios when feminist minded women deliberately put themselves in intimate situations but expect their partners to know whether or not they want to discontinue or to do this or that without having to voice their preferences after having initially consented.

[@NoCommonSense9]

An X bullshit. if one party has the responsibility to say "no", then the other 100% has the responsibility to create an environment in which they feel safe in doing so. besides, this is a moot point- she DID say "no". he ignored it and tried to pressure her. i don't think that it makes him satan or anything, but it was a shitty thing to do.

[@BNL07604]

I'm going to politely ;) disagree with you here... I think if she didn't like it she should've said no. Men are visual, yes, but also simple; (especially when their in the heat of a moment and everything seems ok) they're not going to get any nonverbal cues that doesn't involve directly looking at the girl's face.

[@nicksinjeans]

BNL07604 the point is we need to change how we establish consent. We need to make it okay for women to feel confident saying no. We need to teach men that just because she didn't say no, and just because it's the heat of the moment, he has the green light. She should have said no. And even though she didn't, he should have realized her body language was reluctant.

[@nicksinjeans]

BNL07604 also, it may be difficult to pick up on body language, so he still could have asked if it was okay, like marina suggested. If you know you have difficulty taking a hint, it is not hard to ask "is this okay? Do you want to keep going? Are you sure?"

[@nicksinjeans]

K LaCoste yep I've dated and been in a couple longer term relationships. I don't like being treated like a child but I don't think asking if I'm sure I want to have sex is childish, nor do I think asking my boyfriend that is childish. We always make sure it's what see want. Idk, seems like the normal thing to do.

[@nicksinjeans]

K LaCoste also 50 shades of grey is not as popular as you think lol. I've never met any woman in real life that likes it. We condemn it. It's not literature and it's disgusting how it ignores consent. Assuming all women want what 50 shades presents is a dangerous assumption to make.

[@nicksinjeans]

K LaCoste also, just had a thought! There's nothing wrong with making consent sexy. My boyfriend and I usually establish consent with "do you want me to fuck you?" "Do you want me?" Gives a good opportunity for the other person to say "fuck YES" or "....to be honest...I'm actually not feeling it."