King Henry IX: What if Fitzroy had lived?

[@ReadingthePast]

To explore "Ada Lovelace: Computing Pioneer" and more first-class history content subscribe to History Hit: access.historyhit.com/checkout/subscribe/receipt?code=readingthepast&plan=monthly for 50% off for your next three months!

[@marshaprice8226]

I tried to subscribe to History Hit using the link, but the “start subscription” button would not work.

[@mlbs4803]

I usually don't like the "what if" / "if only" ruminations in novels and histories. However, your presentation is highly knowledgeable and well thought out. I enjoyed this immensely. Thanks!

[@harrietyounger6118]

I agree however I think when doing a what if scenario you need to stick to one glitch as Dr kat refers to it and you need documentation to indicate that X y or z was planned before the glitch happened.

[@RobinGH]

I love "speculative" history when it's well researched and is as realistic as a flight of imagination can be. Well done, Dr. Kat, I enjoyed this very much.

[@jackieheidorn5875]

Another subject I am interested in regarding the "what if" in history is Arthur Tudor. If Henry was never king; what would have changed?

[@Rockieswoobie]

Same

[@beth7935]

That's my fave what-if! Literally ANYONE would be better than Henry VIII, but from reading a bio of Arthur, I think there's a fair chance he would've been a decent king. He was raised to be the exact opposite of how Henry VIII turned out, & he had a lot of responsibility from a young age, & seemed to be doing a pretty good job with it so far. And he would've had a great queen too.

[@jmacd9552]

this would be an interesting topic Dr. Kat.

[@dearashad]

Way too big a question. Interesting, but the only speculation I have is how Henry likely wouldn’t have been quite as obsessed with a son as he was and probably would have been the cheerful self he was prior to his tourney accident.

[@SuperBartles]

and would he have been Arthur the 2nd? Awkward question, heh

[@traceyu6213]

Oh my goodness. If only Henry and Bessie had married. So many lives may have been saved.

[@morrigan908]

"I am not a chaos fairy," with that expression may be one of the funniest things I've seen on YT.

[@NeoDarkling]

As an American living in the state of Virginia (which, of course, is named after Elizabeth I), it's truly fascinating to think about what life on this side of the pond could have been like if Henry Fitzroy had survived and been crowded Henry IX.

[@kooltom4]

Maybe speaking Spanish? Suspect Spain may have been most likely to invade, given presence in South America?

[@philroberts7238]

@@kooltom4 They already had quite a few toeholds in North America as well.

[@Chemist_mama]

@@chacesimmonds338 yes, but Henry VIII was never one that played by the rules…I think he would have absolutely found a way to bring him into the line of succession.

[@samanthafordyce5795]

@@chacesimmonds338 Henry VIII decreed both of his daughters to be illegitimate after his marriage to each of their mothers was annulled in turn. He put them back into the line of succession by an act of parliament before he died. I think he also put that into his will. So, if he could do that for his daughters, he'd be far more inclined to do it for a son -- male preference primogeniture.

[@marilynt9599]

@@chacesimmonds338 but you forget, at the time of Henry VIII's death, Mary and Elizabeth were ALSO illegitimate by decree. In Henry VIII's will they were reinstated to the line of succession but not made legitimate. Making herself 'legitimate' was one of Mary I's first acts as Queen.

[@reinadegrillos]

I'm no Historian but I think the succession after Edward's death would go, yes, to Henry Fitzroy, because of his gender and because, as you said, he already had been made a very powerful, politically important man at court. Probably Mary Tudor would had been happier as a more younguish wife with some children in a great manor. The fact she married so late and to a 26 years old uninterested Felipe was very unhappy.

[@Natalie_11188]

I agree. If Henry Fitzroy ascended after Edward VI died, and had Mary married off even 5 years earlier, it’s likely she could’ve conceived a child (or children) and led a very different life. Given Henry F was a grown man, he would’ve had more authority to (and interest in) marry off his sisters than Edward did (even though Edward was king he was still a child)

[@januarysson5633]

@@Natalie_11188 If “Henry IX” had no children of his own that would make Mary’s children next in line to the throne which presents more interesting possibilities.

[@Natalie_11188]

@@januarysson5633 so many!

[@carinafourie9119]

Perhaps after Anne and Catherine’s fall, his Howard marriage would have been annulled and he would have married Lady Jane Grey.

[@Chuck0856]

No. Mary Tudor fought hard for her place in the succession after Edward's death. She would never have stood idly by and allowed an illegitimate brother to usurp her place.

[@CharvonR]

American here🇺🇸. You my dear should have 1 million subs. Seriously, the history and research/knowledge you invest is way above most stuff on KZbin . I love history we can learn so much. Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge w us👍

[@maryanneslater9675]

Regarding the union of England and Scotland, if it is assumed Henry IX was widowed in 1557, he might still have been looking for a new wife when Mary Queen of Scots found herself widowed in 1560. And yes, he would have been 40 while she was still a teenager, but with no one to set her up with Darnley, she might have found him acceptable, if he was still a decent fellow. :)

[@beedowns4744]

Yeah it could work

[@mildlycornfield]

Fascinating! Alternate history is a route I usually shy away from, due to how easily it can stray into fiction. I really like the way you approached this!

[@randyking3057]

I'm not big on hypotheticals, but this was absolutely riveting. I couldn't tear myself away. Well done.

[@sauvignonblanc0]

FitzRoy's life has fascinated me for many years. I am so happy that you took this opportunity to discuss him and this hypothetical case. Being Irish, it's interesting that his death was a catalyst to the Crown of Ireland Act 1542 (which continues to have major constitutional implications).

[@SithLadyDarhVamp]

This was extremely interesting, frankly. You should do more of these alternate history musings, I think a lot of us viewers would be here for that.

[@jennierayner2152]

I think my favourite "what if" is...what if Edward IV had lived until his sons were adults? Only a few short years, after all. Then Richard wouldn't have been able to hijack the succession, the Battle of Bosworth would never have happened, and the Tudor line would - probably? - have remained in relative obscurity. That's a fun one to think about...

[@Natalie_11188]

Yes that’s a good one.

[@gidzmobug2323]

History would have looked considerably different. Richard might still have tried to hijack the succession--but it might have been harder to do against a grown man.

[@user-es8si3cv8b]

Me too

[@lulugigi9907]

Agree. Richard may have ended up drown in his own barrel of Malmsey like his brother, George. Or perhaps he would have continued to be loyal to his brother. We will never know. Several years ago, I came upon a website, whose author has since died and he had a conspiracy theory wherein Holbein’s artwork hinted that Edward the V and his brother, Richard, were placed in secure households and renamed and allowed to live only by agreeing to assume aliases.

[@conemadam]

Dr. Kat, this made my head explode, in a good way! You touched upon the main points I wondered about in your scenario: would Fitzroy have stood up to the Howards, the Seymours, and the Dudley’s? Most importantly for me, though, was the question concerning Fitzroy’s religious beliefs. As you ask, could he have tempered the reforming zeal of Edward VI ? To me, this is the most pivotal point and frustratingly unanswerable question. Your ideas are beautifully presented. However, as I listened to you, the whole time I wondered “what if Fitzroy became monstrous and power hungry?” We will never know, but your narrative is wonderful to think about. Thank you again!

[@jakual339]

It's such a shame that we know so little about him as a person! His religious tendencies would have been really important, as you mention, but also his personality and skills. A charming and diplomatic young man who won renown on the battlefield would have been a force to be reckoned with, but if he'd been short-tempered or easily manipulated, he might not have been able to make use of the position he would have been in.

[@amylin5062]

I think you’ve done a brilliant job working through the what-ifs regarding Henry Fitzroy. I do think there would have been some kind of clash between Henry and the ambitious Seymour brothers, especially during Edward’s reign. I do think Henry would have won that clash, being the king’s half-brother. Also, without being fully sure of his faith, I do agree with you that it’s likely England would’ve been spared the religious whiplash of Edward/Mary/Elizabeth’s reigns. Finally, “I am not a chaos fairy” is my new favorite sentence. 😂 Love your videos and insight! Signed, an Anglophile in the U.S.

[@ReadingthePast]

Thank you 😊

[@ameryek.9607]

What is the meaning of the way Fitzroy is dressed in the miniature portrait? Just going to bed? Just arising? In ill-heath? I don't think another portrait exists in this time period like this one.

[@ReadingthePast]

This is something that is debated, some suggest he was painted during his final illness - hence the casual / bed wear - but it isn’t explicitly stated anywhere.

[@meganferraro8145]

I always wonder how England would've been if Anne didn't miscarry her son...

[@rachellesch8681]

There’s a series of historical fiction novels that have a premise of “what if Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn had a son?” The main character is that son.

[@meganferraro8145]

@@rachellesch8681 what is the title of that series?

[@rachellesch8681]

@@meganferraro8145 I forget. It was something I came across while scrolling through Pinterest

[@gogreen7794]

I've wondered what would have happened if a son of Ann and Henry had lived to be a teenager and then died, like Prince Arthur or Edward VI, leaving Elizabeth as the heir, but without the lessons she learned and wisdom she gained growing up as she actually did. And what would Mary and her supporters do if Henry's male heir (or actual young king) died, leaving Elizabeth, his full sister, as the supposed heir to the throne?

[@deadpaul]

Well, for starters, Anne would have lived out her natural lifetime. That's fun to speculate on what she would have done.

[@timefoolery]

I think it was fairly obvious that Henry wanted a legitimate heir to take his throne so you have to presume that Henry would’ve continued to marry in pursuit of this elusive male child, but I think it’s also very obvious that Henry raised Fitzroy up and gave him titles as a sort of backup plan should he never make a legitimate male heir. I think it’s highly possible that, if Edward had never been born, Fitzroy would’ve been named Henry’s heir and be king. I believe Fitzroy had as much of a claim to the throne as his grandfather Henry VII when he claimed the throne.

[@Chuck0856]

No, an illegitimate son would not have been accepted as long as there was a popular, legitimate heiress presumptive.

[@georginamannor4373]

It's very possible that he could've been become King. William the conqueror was born out of wedlock and he became a powerful ruler.

[@MsFlamingFlamer]

@@Chuck0856Mary and Elizabeth were deemed “illegitimate” but both became Queens.

[@rogerfielding1117]

Only by conquest​@@georginamannor4373

[@leonieblah8806]

Very interesting. It all depends on his children and if they survived. You are right that it does reveal the anxieties they would have felt. We share their uncertainties about the future this way. I really enjoyed that exercise.

[@ReadingthePast]

Thank you ☺️

[@dale3404]

Alternative history is fascinating, and it takes real talent to imagine the changes to history and make it all work.

[@cherylhayden7363]

Absolutely fascinating and fun! Henry Fitzroy is little discussed on this side of the pond, because of his premature death. I can't help but think had this young man lived and continued his trajectory, European history, not just English history would be forever changed. If is and important word here. If Henry had lived, if his father made him legitimate and had named him "the spare", if he played an outsized role in curbing the access of religious reformists to Edward, well the suppositions are endless. Lady Jane Grey wouldn't be anything more than a footnote in history. Mary would possibly still married Phillip, but ruled with her husband as Queen of Spain. Elizabeth would not have been married off to a member of the English court, but married to one of her continental suitors, such as the King of Sweden or Charles, Archduke of Austria. If she had entered into a marriage with the Hapsburg Court, could both the sisters influence their half brother to have England join the 30 Year's War on the side of the Catholics?

[@ReadingthePast]

I suppose the sisters’ influence might depend on personal affection in addition to diplomatic promises. For example, I think Henry VIII would have done more to please Mary than Margaret.

[@cherylhayden7363]

Given her personality, Elizabeth would never gave been nothing...but she have never been a Protestant.

[@pedanticradiator]

The 30 years war started sftet the Tudors had all died

[@cherylhayden7363]

@@pedanticradiator The purpose of this video/exercise is what if. What if the 1932 assassination attempt of Hitler had been successful? In all likelihood a smaller Italian focused war could have occurred in WWII. No. In the 17th century under the "rules" of this is what if, what if certain Protestant monarchies had stepped back formally from the 30 Year's War. What would have happened?

[@pedanticradiator]

What I am saying is given that the 30 Years War started in 1618 its unlikely that any of Henry VIIIs children would have been still alive and had Fitzroy lived to be King it would probably be his son or daughter on the throne at that time.

[@martyal]

I must admit that I never wondered what might have changed if Fitzroy had lived a full lifetime. One thing that I considered is the changes that might have occurred if Arthur, Henry’s brother, had not died so young. I’d like to hear your take on that scenario if you can work it into your schedule.

[@diggerfan1936]

Best part of the week!

[@lisakilmer2667]

Well, that's a marvelous thought experiment. I agree that, had Fitzroy lived, Henry VIII would have added him into the succession. One really never thinks about "what if" Mary and Elizabeth had never reigned, but once that idea is broached - well, the ideas become endless. Since we know nothing of Fitzroy's personality, and we assume he was moderate in all issues, then questions of religion and Empire would have developed quite differently. Indeed, in my opinion, Elizabeth's reign as a single woman was crucial to the early development of the British Empire. Any other monarch who was more interested in forging ties with Europe rather than outshining Europe would have been much slower to colonize the American continent. What a thought!

[@roseg1333]

@FelisDomina interesting theories but didn’t Spain colonize most of the south East USA some parts of CA?

[@roseg1333]

@FelisDomina yes! Right on👌🏼

[@heliotropezzz333]

Illegitimate children never inherited the throne.

[@heliotropezzz333]

@FelisDomina I don't think so. It would never have been accepted. He might disinherit children, but changing status the other way around for someone born illegitimate would not have happened. One reason for this is that most Kings had mistresses and produced illegitimate children. Imagine the scope for war and chaos if they all tried to claim the throne. Henry VIII never tried to make Richmond his heir, even though the cost to him was all those marriages and a break with Rome. He knew he had to get a legitimate heir. Charles II had no legitimate children but his illegitimate son Monmouth was treated as a traitor when he tried to claim the throne by force.

[@easjer]

@@heliotropezzz333 Never say never. You are assuming that people would prefer an older woman with definite Catholic leanings (who may or may not have been married by this point and may or may not have had children) to a full-blooded English male who reminded them positively of the best of King Henry and who had been a part of public governance for decades and had been groomed for the role and had actually, you know, been running the damn country already for 6 years. To avoid the uncertainties of female (and depending on if Mary had been married and to whom, possibly foreign rule) I think plenty of people would have been perfectly fine with Fitzroy taking over. Particularly if his governance to that point had been positive. He was a sure bet at that point while a woman could only ever be a risky proposition and likely ruled by her husband. If married to an Englishman, maybe a particularly rich man with some ancient tie might try it on, but presumably Mary and Elizabeth would have been carefully married off in that regard to loyal retainers if not foreigners. And foreigners would have been carefully vetted to be careful of their ability to launch any sort of issue since Edward wasn't known for his strength and robustness.

[@sixeses]

Wolsey made him a vampire in one Canadian television series, 2007's Blood Ties. The lead actor later played another vampire in the US version of Being Human .

[@sunnygirl734]

This was brilliantly done. I really enjoyed this as I pictured in my mind everything you described. It would have been interesting to see how differently Elizabeth's and Mary's lives would have turned out, as well as Mary Stuart's and the fate of Scotland. I know some people like to stick with the reality of what actually happened instead of simply imagining the "What ifs", but it's fun to imagine and observe those scenarios and how they would have shaped our history and present day differently. This is how stories and novels are written. Don't ever shut down the gift of imagination. That alone can dampen the future of the world on many levels.

[@louisacosentino9543]

Thank you, Dr. Kat, for another great video! Have a blessed weekend! If this child was made heir, it might have saved everyone a lot of grief and pain. Proclaiming this child as heir, would not have been so bad compared to Henry VIII other misdeeds.

[@patricksymons1634]

Hey Louisa

[@AmericanOnTheLoose]

I was really looking forward to this topic and you certainly didn't disappoint, Dr Kat! Thank you!

[@OkieJammer2736]

Ohhh. So. Juicy! What knowledge and talent you have to fit the endless puzzle pieces together in this What If scenario. If nothing else, we know a lot more about Fitzroy and his life. Just a great segment, kid!

[@ReadingthePast]

Thank you, I’m glad you enjoyed 🌟

[@lyz7323]

Interesting video Dr Kat! I would love to see you discuss either the life of Catherine de Medici or Mary Queen of Scots. I’d love to hear your take on their interesting lives, and the problems they faced as female rulers!

[@j.a.m5083]

This has been so interesting. As someone who tends interest towards early tutor history. I’d love to see a what if Arthur had lived video. But otherwise absolutely fascinating food for thought.

[@mnorth1964]

Fascinating concept. I used to imagine similar possibilities with the young Henry, Prince of Wales, born in 1511.

[@jakual339]

A fascinating video, thank you! I find it interesting how often Fitzroy is quietly overlooked in the conversation about the Tudors. He was a married, (soon-to-be-)adult son of the King, however things play out, there's no way his mere *existence* wouldn't have completely changed the politics of the last years of Henry VIII's life. Yet, most retellings of the story just mention his birth for its role in harming the relationship between Henry and Catherine, and then forget about him (I don't think the Tudors tv show even mentions when he dies!)

[@TheMogregory]

There are many things Tudors tv didn't mention and even more things they did mention that never actually happened.

[@jakual339]

@@TheMogregory Most definitely! I just find it particularly amusing that they make a huge deal of him being *born*, and then someone watching the whole series without any other sources would be left at the end going "Hold on, didn't he have another kid at one point?"

[@Nightbird1914]

As I recall, in the Tudors TV show, Henry was shown dying as a little boy. I loved the show but that irritated me along with combining VIII’s two sisters into one they called Margaret but written as Mary!

[@jakual339]

@@Nightbird1914 I don't remember that at all, huh. Guess the scene must have not made much of an impression. Yeah, that's the most egregious (and unnecessary) change by far, imo.

[@Nightbird1914]

@@jakual339 kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXi1n6Cvm9SaoNE (Around 4:00 in)

[@naomiskilling1093]

My question would be what would Fitzroy's relationships with his other half-siblings look like. I think that their relationships and however friendly/adversarial they turned out would probably affect a lot especially after Edward's rule when there could be a succession crisis between Henry Fitzroy and Mary. Also wonder about the truth of what I've heard of that papal dispensation that was supposedly given to allow a potential marriage between Fitzroy and Mary. If say Mary Howard had died in childbirth could that have been resurrected as it looked more and more clear that England would be left with a boy king and the succession had to be shored up as it were?

[@ReadingthePast]

Apparently the idea a dispensation for a Mary/Fitzroy marriage was floated as something the Pope might agree to - according to the rumours the suggester was told that Henry wouldn’t be interested in that plan!

[@Wosiewose]

Wow, interesting thought. A dispensation might have been pretty difficult to get, though... cousins were one thing, but half-siblings? That doesn't seem terribly likely, especially given the fact made obvious by Henry VIII's "Great Matter", that an application to Rome was not necessarily a rubber stamp approval.

[@jakual339]

The question of relationships between the siblings is an important one! It seems like quite a bit of how things played out after Henry VIII's death was influenced by his three children having been able to become a bit of a real family through Catherine Parr (e.g. Mary seems to have felt much more fondly about Elizabeth than might be expected from who her mother was). I wonder how that dynamic might have been changed by the addition of another half-sibling.

[@naomiskilling1093]

@@ReadingthePast Ah okay. The information I've seen around that was conflicting as to whether it had even happened. Thanks for the clarification!

[@Natalie_11188]

@@jakual339 from what I know of the record, Mary was friendly with Fitzroy and had no problem calling him “brother” but I think he and Mary would’ve had a lot more conflict down the road than Mary and Elizabeth. Mary was old enough to be Elizabeth’s mother, and that created a nurturing dynamic between them in Elizabeth’s early life- they were both cast off and declared illegitimate, but there was a relief when Edward was born. With Fitzroy, he and Mary 3yrs a part (so peers), and Fitzroy was the longed for boy, after Catherine of Aragon was pushed aside they were “equal” in Henry’s eyes (although not in the eyes of Catholic Europe). I see them having many more conflicting ideologies and interests than Mary and Elizabeth ever had. I also wonder if here would’ve been sibling rivalry to influence Edward.

[@BlondieG63]

I really enjoyed this “counter factual” idea with Fitzroy. Very intriguing and presented with great detail in a conversational way! Quite well done!!

[@roodbennett]

You have done a fantastic job with this topic. I have always wondered about Henry Fitzroy ❤

[@casondrateresse2292]

You are truly delightful

[@bionicwomanlondon2004]

You've just blown my mind with this! Certainly the world as we know it would be markedly different from the Henry Fitzroy butterfly effect! Magnificent!

[@anngray9171]

Confess I have been a very casual viewer of this channel, but I this has stopped me in my tracks.. Henry Fitzroy, so glossed over, has been a shadowy figure in my private historic studies. My goodness, this brings the dynastic frenzy of Henry VIII 's reign into sharp focus. This channel is a serious must. Excellent serious program.

[@katpillar4131]

Brilliant analysis! I often consider the "what if's" in history. It is amazing how one small event can turn the outcome(s) of bigger events in history. There was a seemingly insignificant US Civil War Battle that I consider to be one of those "what if" moments surrounding the competence of one Major General. It would have made a great PhD thesis IMO. I felt vindicated when an entire book was written on the subject a few years later. :)

[@carriehandy4247]

Very interesting! I actually didn't know much about Fizroy's brief life and wasn't aware of how much he was being put forward in terms of titles and politics. Interesting thoughts about what might have been.

[@nichola607]

Hurray, you uploading videos at a time when I have to do other things is like having a meal at a lovely restaurant booked and looking forward to it. This one looks very interesting 🙂

[@ReadingthePast]

I hope you enjoy ☺️

[@nichola607]

@@ReadingthePast Great- very enjoyable. :) :)

[@jared1870]

You are not a chaos fairy, and as it is your channel, we play the game by your rules. Love it!!

[@ReadingthePast]

Thank you 😊

[@lizzsigmon]

What a fascinating game of "What if...?". I loved it! And thank you for only changing the one variable of keeping Fitzroy alive - otherwise, it's just chaos theory and not a truly academic experiment. I vote for more of these! :)

[@marshaprice8226]

Very interesting speculations which sound quite reasonable! I really appreciate your observation that doing such an exercise increases our awareness of the significance of the events that actually did happen! A friend and I once did this exercise asking how history would have been different if Henry and Catherine’s baby son, Henry Duke of Cornwall, had lived into adulthood and succeeded his father. All the differences we thought of - such as the security of Catherine’s position as queen and thus no divorce, no break from the papacy, no royal supremacy, no six wives, no Elizabeth, etc - the way in which the world - especially the English world and all it has affected - would have been different were really mind-boggling! Thanks so much for this thought-provoking video!

[@rosemarie9641]

So interesting lucubration, thank you so much! Your videos are always illustrative and are one of the most expected moments of the week for me. I love History and, as a Spaniard, I'm always interested in the richness of the European cultural heritage. Warm greetings from Madrid!😘😀⚘☀️

[@AdelaideBeemanWhite]

I know I’ve already made a suggestion for a future video, but I would also love to hear you cover what would’ve happened if The Spanish Armada had succeeded. That would be a fascinating dive!

[@dirgniflesuoh7950]

Harry Turtledove wrote a whole novel about that, with William Shakespear as the main character, "Ruled Brittania".

[@BeeKool__113]

As always, fantastic video! It is very fascinating to think on what could have been from a historical standpoint. Very interesting.

[@Donna230]

This post is two years old, of course, but I enjoyed it and I've signed up for History Hit. Thanks.

[@WrightFightConcepts]

This is a fantastic video. I always enjoy your content, but this was probably my favorite video to date. I’ve always wondered what would happen if Henry FitzRoy had lived.

[@ReadingthePast]

Thank you 😊

[@darlenefarmer5921]

Enjoyed this conversation. Thank you.

[@KourttneyL]

Your voice is so soothing. It is perfect for teaching us history!

[@glorialange6446]

Interesting and thought provoking. Especially those ending questions. I have also believed that Henry Fitzroy would have become King after Edward, at the least, and I saw him as possibly even made King INSTEAD of Edward, because of his young age, due to a coup Excellent video as always.

[@AdelaideBeemanWhite]

Could you make a video covering what would’ve happened if Queen Elizabeth had married the Duc d’Alencon?

[@neilchisholm8376]

Now that would be most interesting!

[@ReadingthePast]

I’m making a list of these suggestions for counter factual investigations for future videos! Thank you 😊

[@AdelaideBeemanWhite]

@@ReadingthePast - You’re welcome!

[@kateh2007]

I love your sponsor History Hits, but not as much as I love your channel Dr. Kat👍♥️. Thanks for this intriguing episode. I'm excited that you're so near to 100k subscribers and looking forward to the upcoming Live!!! Hope that you, Gabriel and Jamie are all well.

[@ReadingthePast]

Thank you 😊 the family are all doing well - Gabriel is very active, inquisitive and chatty (this is code for we are utterly exhausted 🤣🤣🤣) I hope you and yours are well too!

[@bushwickbaby]

Dr. Kat!!!!! This entire episode is so incredibly fascinating, but all I can think is: Thank God things happened as they did! HAHA!! Thank you so much for another thought-provoking episode. ❤

[@sskyles-mulligan5059]

Your videos have been a constant companion through the pandemic; I thank you for that. This one is among my favorites, as you deal frankly with a number of intriguing possibilities. Here is my take on this and related issues: Had he survived, Fitzroy likely would have become king if Edward died, or have become Morton/Wolsey/Cromwell if he had not. As you rightly noted, he shared the label "bastard" with Henry VIII's two actually legitimate daughters, but, as you didn't quite bluntly say, he was a male, which characteristic continues to stupidly dominate our sense of worth. You kept the best part for the end, though: more open questions, the butterfly wings: would England have had the greatest navy (I would guess that The Netherlands would probably have surpassed England, since their navy was born from many necessities); would the Stuarts have come to the English throne (maybe in a few generations, depending upon how things played out, or maybe some other odd descendant of John of Gaunt would have assumed the throne; and of course, that would mean that the UK would not have existed, although it now seems to be unraveling a bit, much as my homeland is trying to revert to its horrid Calvinist roots. It's somewhat intriguing to envision the Fates with their thread.

[@Starburst858]

Hey Dr Kat! Hope you are well. Just wanted to say I love your videos. I could listen to you talk about history all day! Lots of love from Canada xo

[@ReadingthePast]

That’s so kind of you, thank you ☺️

[@bellamamma767]

Let me tell you, your shows make my day. Thank you so much for all the effort you put into providing us with historical awesomeness! Blessings🥰

[@leesilm.4432]

Oh, I adore "What Ifs" of history! LOVED THIS VIDEO! As an American, I really am intrigued by that idea that there isn't the Roanoke/colonies, and that English isn't the primary language of the land. I'd guess perhaps Spanish, and a greater portion of the population speaking French and/or German? But that is really amazing, when you think if just this one particular child survives to be say 60, how that changes the shape of the whole world- not just Henry8th's. PS: Have you ever read about (or considered doing a video on) the idea of Catherine of Aragon having a son with Arthur, how that would have changed things? A friend of mine (I'm more into the 1850s-1920s for history I can rattle on about, my friend is more into the Tudors) and I were discussing that one day, how if Arthur/Catherine have a son, who survives Arthur, how that changes Tudor England.

[@QueenIsabella18]

"I am not a chaos fairy" is the best thing I've heard all year!😂😂😂

[@casson5651]

Hahahahahha chaos fairy! This level of approachability is why I keep coming back. Thank you!

[@frozenglaicericet-pose6104]

I like how you kept it pretty simple on this

[@GertiePants]

Thank you for the intriguing video, Dr. Kat! I love how you set the parameters at the start. It does prevent one from going down rabbit holes, does it not? I must admit, however, that all the what-if's have given me a headache. It's impossible to chase all the ramifications had Henry Fitzroy survived. It's astounding how one single person can be so pivotal.

[@BellaRenee7514]

This was just fabulous! And I do love/agree with where you stopped the timeline. The course of history could/would have been drastically different and quite impossible to even predict from this alternate timeline. In a way, I do wish this had been reality

[@lsjansen]

This would make for a fun alternate universe book to follow the changes that would occur with Fitzroy's kingship. Would the English Empire have actually happened as it did under Elizabeth's leadership?

[@coffeecloud]

So, can Dr Kat have her own podcast on HH? I already subscribe to most of their pods. I thinker's interesting to occasionally explore these 'what if' ideas... but not too often. Very interesting and thought provoking with well presented evidence. Brilliant, as per usual. Thank you Dr Kat.

[@roxyshow123]

Considering that Henry VIII was not a great king and Fitzroy was destined to be like his father, I hypothesize that England would not have entered its golden age, with art, discovery and empire as it did under Elizabeth. Upon Queen Mary's death did Elizabeth declare: "This is the Lord's doing and it is marvelous in our eyes." Whether it was the Lord's doing, providence or what have you, Elizabeth's ascension to the throne changed the world.

[@MichelleFaithLove]

Thank you. I'm a fan of English Tudor History. I read and learn something new everyday. I so enjoy your videos and I clicked play as soon as I read the title.

[@zwischenzug1]

Dr Kat, I appreciate all your presentations, but this one about King Henry IX is by far the most charming and stimulating. You have, in essence, just pitched your BBC series idea to us. It would make a great book. "The Other Tudor Son !!"

[@robbiemclaurin1852]

I have always wondered about this....he seemed to have been a intelligent young man with a lot of promise.He was the spitting image of his father....I watch you every night before turning in thank you for the many informative,questioning, topics that you bring to your channel.

[@ellaw356]

I must comment that this was probably my favorite video of yours! It's very fascinating to think about the "what if " situation. I would also like your thoughts on the fact that Prine Arthur, Prince Edward, and Henry Fitzroy die around 15. I wonder if this was a genetic pulmonary disease? 🤔

[@leanneho1543]

Discovered History Hit podcast through your video!! Thanks, Kat!!

[@MadameBijoux]

Another fantastically informative video, Dr. Kat! May I make a small suggestion? When you explain how much money the royals et al were granted, would it be possible to tell us what that would equate to in today’s money? I know £4,000 would be a lot in Henry VIII’s time- but how much would it be today? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?

[@sharonannc.3079]

I always look forward to your videos… Always enlightening 🤗🇺🇸

[@dorym8045]

I had also, similar to another commenter, not typically been interested in “what ifs” but yours was definitely different. In most “what ifs” regarding history timelines, I can’t really see a relevance to me personally. But you managed to do it. When I listen to English tudor history, it is interesting but remote for me as an American. But asking at the very end, what the impact of a Henry IX reign might have had on the discovery of America, really caught my attention. A previously unthought of point of view (to me). Very interesting. Thank you.

[@anitasimon7201]

I just discovered your channel and I LOVE it. I love your perspective on Fitzroy. Very interesting.

[@Aprilddn]

Excellent video , one of my favorites of yours, very thought provoking as an American .

[@karensilvera6694]

Another Wow moment for me! Everything in the world could have changed. All the influences they had on the globe. This is one heck of a rabbit hole. This is a head scratcher. Thank Dr. Kat. I love Fridays 😁

[@patricksymons1634]

Hello Karen

[@nancygarrett0000]

I am totally fascinated with British history...being from the USA we really dont have that much to talk about or explore!! Thank you for sharing!!! Love your KZbin channel!

[@rachelmarshall6384]

Fascinating and thought provoking

[@lindagreenwood4217]

Loved this Kat 🤓 thanks for keeping me entertained

[@saranonimus9211]

My favorite channel theme song!!

[@moyrakeatings7878]

How interesting! I do think it is possible that Fitzroy might have been named heir - unlikely but not impossible. I liked what you did with the timeline bringing him in on the demise of Edward VI, as a male he might have been very favoured by the Council and the populace. Enjoyed this and have now subscribed! Thank you.

[@sheriking4041]

I’m an American and you are my favorite historian. This was so fun to play ‘ what if’. Because if Elizabeth never felt the need to explore North America probably be speaking Spanish or French. And being that most of my ancestors came over to America in the early 1600’s from England or Ireland, I probably would be there in the UK with you.

[@marypatton5136]

More likely you wouldn’t exist at all.

[@sheriking4041]

@@marypatton5136 or I would be living in England somewhere

[@marypatton5136]

I’ve often wished that my ancestors had never left the UK, but I figured out, in my case anyway, that if they hadn’t come to the new world, the particular mix that makes up my ancestry never would have met and I wouldn’t exist.

[@Nightbird1914]

Thank you for this entertaining “what if”! I wonder if Fitzroy would have been a more religious tolerant ruler than either of his half sisters. I look forward to all your videos. Always informative and entertaining.

[@aj.a1845]

Definitely an interesting topic to write a historical fiction in this topic and explore all the "what if". As you said the implications would definitely have serious consequences on how history played out.

[@t.m.a.3665]

I loved this “what if” scenario” . Makes you think how just one event ( Fitzroy’s death or “life” ) could of changed the history of the British Monarchy. ( Also, America) you just never know! Thank you , Dr. Kat for making me love your history video’s .

[@emmahepburn2969]

I would absolutely love to see a -what if - episode on prince Arthur Tudor and Katherine of Aragon.

[@nicoleachilles8765]

That was masterfully done. As a hobbywriter I constantly play the what if game and history is a great playing field full of inspiration. However, while everyone can add a dragon and call it fantasy, it takes a love for details and research to make it believable without fantastic beasts. In my mind, you combined both aspects - the history and also the storytelling - perfectly. I certainly enjoyed the video.

[@user-ti5cw1ug6l]

No way he becomes King of England before his sisters. The Acts of Succession were pretty much always ignored because people had a much stronger affinity for the actual traditional rules of succession. The King couldn't get away with naming some random cousin or an illegitmate brother heir. This is why did and would always favor Mary even though she was catholic. She was the next legitimate child, and not just because of statute, but also because people always thought so despite Henry VIII making her illegitimate at one point.

[@hayleyreeves8938]

Really enjoyed this one Queen Kat

[@miccobgf1957]

Fascinating thought experiment. I wonder if Henry Fitzroy’s succession might not have led to a brief civil war: his partisans vs Mary’s Catholic backers vs Elizabeth’s Protestant camp. However, given the imputed bastardization of all three siblings, I think Henry would have likely come out on top, especially if he had already served as Lord Protector and had already produced male children of his own. I also enjoyed your comment that we tend to read history backward, so the value of this sort of experiment is to experience the anxiety that our forebearers did. Well done!

[@vickyrushton1783]

You made this absolutely fascinating ❤

[@Herries8325]

I think that this was a brilliantly balanced piece of conjecture Dr. Kat, at no point did I feel that it jarred with reallity. I had been following a Tudor interest a long time before I latched onto you. as a result I'm good at gaff spotting if not spelling. thanks I've just watched the summing up questions and you've shaken up my cosy little world !!

[@v_cluckie97]

this is my favourite episode ever, more hypothetical thought experiments of other events in history pls!!! & loving the videos about side characters of the monarchy i feel like I was there w them lol

[@ruthannemackinnon588]

England would have been a very different nation, arguable better, had a son survived between Henry & Katherine of Aragon, or EVEN better a son for her and Arthur. Down the line, how about a surviving son for Mary & Phillip? It's simply endless.

[@davidbrewer9030]

Very interesting. I also wonder what if Henry's older brother Arthur had lived, what differences would occur. Also, would he have been Arthur I or II, considering the belief in King Arthur.