RED DSMC2 8K VS URSA 12k!! - Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12k Review

In this video we talk about the Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K that we got in the mail less than two weeks ago. We go over some of our first impressions and opinions on how this camera compares to the RED DSMC2 cameras. We also do some side by side tests to see how these two sensor's images compare. What's your thoughts on the new URSA 12k? Let us know in the comments below!
PHFX Tools : phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/
0:00 Intro
1:21 Build Quality
2:00 Form Factor & Modularity
3:48 Boot Up Time
4:51 UI & Software
5:50 Fan Noise
7:00 Battery Life
7:54 Built In ND Filters
8:30 BRAW
9:56 Recording Media Options
12:50 Frame Rates
13:27 Sensor Size
13:50 Image Quality & Test Footage
16:49 Dynamic Range
17:18 3rd Party Support
17:37 Repairs & Support
18:24 Community & Forum
18:39 Final Thoughts
_______________________________
Our Favorite Storyboarding App:
boords.com?via=threefold
20% off your first payment with the code: BOORDS20
Gear we use!
Threefold Amazon: www.amazon.com/shop/threefold
Lighting Gear we use : www.amazon.com/shop/threefold...
Cameras & Lenses: www.amazon.com/shop/threefold...
Audio Gear: www.amazon.com/shop/threefold...
Miscellaneous gear (Drones, gimbals, tripods, monitors): www.amazon.com/shop/threefold...
Blackmagic Pocket 6k: amzn.to/2Lh19VL
Blackmagic Pocket 4k: amzn.to/3i5CK1f
Sigma Cine 18-35 EF: amzn.to/2Kb5hpG
Tokina Cine 11-20 EF: amzn.to/3qdGL6x
Aputure 300x: amzn.to/35yOHro
Aputure 300D II: amzn.to/2LIFy8m
Aputure 120D II: amzn.to/3iiilq1
Rode NTG3: amzn.to/2LtoV0L
DJI RS2: amzn.to/3bBStUv
DJI Mavic Pro: amzn.to/3oEhhyZ
_______________________________
Make sure to hit that subscribe button!
Instagram: / threefold
Website: www.threefold.tv

[@melankolikfilms]

BazookaCam™.

[@mrwayne8018]

2020 was like: Red Komodo 6K... Canon R5 8K... Blackmagic: Hold my beer...

[@threefoldtv]

The whole collective film world was shocked haha. Very nice to still be surprised in the world of everything getting leaked.

[@joenicklo]

Speaking of modular, I'm PRAYING that within the next few months Blackmagic announces a cube form factor BMPCC :D

[@8lec_R]

F***in' heck yea! That would be great!!!

[@joenicklo]

@@8lec_R I wouldn't hold your breath though. BM seems to go against the market when it comes to body design.

[@threefoldtv]

Maybe we gotta pray a little louder so they can hear us all the way down in Australia. 🙏🙏

[@joenicklo]

@@threefoldtv LOL c'mon Blackmagic! Listen to your users! PLEASE

[@8lec_R]

@@joenicklo tweeting them. Hopefully it reaches Australia 😜

[@jambononi]

RED create great looking images, but their overall business approach is creating fandom and then basically ripping people off with accessories and repairs etc. It's borderline a scam in my opinion. Blackmagic has proved that for a fraction of the price you can get nearly the same results. Which means surely RED could produce an SSD that's not $1500, or a top handle under $500 or maybe a UI that works properly. As much as large film companies can accept the downsides and buy 4 RED cameras because one will probably crash, the writing is on the wall, and I wonder if RED can stay alive as they bring the Komodo onto the market as an answer to the competition.

[@3AcesFilms]

Agree. RED seems to charge what they charge, simply because they can from all the hype around it. Strange since they were originally meant to be the affordable option

[@AL-lh2ht]

It’s interesting it’s a relative new thing being able to have true Cinema cameras at an realistic price point. This is very new and BlackMagic is one of the biggest components to this change.

[@OneTap__]

*Cant agree more. Its a fandom brand... In Holywood not more then 2% of feature Movies using RED.... So it's not a good product. It's just overrated hardware...*

[@TwatMcGee]

@@OneTap__ I dont think red is bad or overrated, just waaay overpriced. Hollywood is just kinda circlejerking over arri, so they use them, but in TV, commercials and music vids red seems to dominate right now. BM is getting more popular though.

[@NTKcinema]

TRUE

[@goodeggproductions]

My experience with BlackMagic repair and support was very good. Somehow, my DC input got blown out on my PCC4K and would only work with the battery. They responded to my repair questions the next day and all I had to do was send the camera to their U.S. service center. The repair was covered under warranty and was sent back to me within 7 days. I'd say that's pretty darn good customer service. So I bought a second camera! Can't see me ever needing a 12K, but I'm really glad that BlackMagic exists. They are putting real film making tools into the hands of average people. If the footage looks as good as a RED or an ALEXA, but for 1/2 to 1/10 of the price, that's good for everyone. Maybe next year, they'll bring out a LF sensor camera.

[@Kinoptico]

I had a similar experience with Black Magic design, after having the BMPCC 6K PRO for a few months, I found a little glitch with the built in ND filters, after contacting them they connected me with their canadian distributor (where I live) and within 8 days I got a brand new camera, no questions asked. That's what's important to me! Now I'm watching this video because I was seriously considering getting a RED KOMODO and after soooo much research and 10s of hours watching every comparizon and advantages possible, I got to a conclusion: RED has made a name over time, their marketing department is doing its job brilliantly, it's all about prestige and status. And the 2 questions you have to ask yourself are: -Will the public perception of the RED brand get you more jobs or better paid jobs? Probably yes. -Will you be able to shoot absolutely superior images with RED cameras than with lower priced URSA MINI G2 OR 12K? For me that's an absolute NO. and I think we all know the reasons why. We are all looking for that perfect, cinematic, magic shot that will finally take us to the next stage of our careers, the image quality that will finally put us on par with Hollywood productions. But believe me it's all about lighting. Yes, my Goal is an ARRI Alexa which for me is absolutely worth it in every aspect. (Tried to buy an older used Alexa XT for about $15k last week just to find out that the cost of a simple codex magazine transfer station (card reader to transfer the footage to my computer) is worth $9k 😅 and I'm not buying that stupid card reader under any circumstances, if you have a better solution please let me know). Keep dreaming guys!, that magic million dollar shot might be closer to be achieved than ever before!

[@Abdallah_yusuf]

this is all the info I really wanted to know about those cameras, thanks a million guys

[@travisminneapolis]

18:59 Crazy that Blackmagic now has a camera that is comparable or better than the 8k Red. Regardless of price.

[@unemployicus]

Better and for $14K+ less than the Red.

[@okachobired5856]

let's also not forget the Red 8k is a 4 year old camera

[@robertsaca3512]

@@okachobired5856 but right now it's comparable (and being compared) at it's available price which bonkers.

[@skybizvideomediaproduction6167]

Even better now that the 12k has dropped 40% overnight

[@travisminneapolis]

Competition is 👍 great in my opinion. Sure, Red is still leading but now they have to innovate (see the new Raptor V)

[@TylerEdwards]

The 12K looks to be a great camera. I ended up cancelling my pre-order and swinging for the G2. I like having a ProRes option for when that is needed and had a few extra pennies to allocate towards lights :)

[@threefoldtv]

Not a bad way to go. Lighting is more important than a 12k sensor haha

[@jamesepiclight]

Great comparison! Its pretty Amazing what Blackmagic has accomplished at this price point.

[@NickNCC]

Thank you, the review felt unbiased and educated with details where needed. Looking forward to seeing more.

[@threefoldtv]

Thanks Nick, we appreciate hearing that!

[@oktophlo9455]

Another great video, thanks guys!

[@Shauny_D]

That mustache is 12k...

[@threefoldtv]

Yes... Yes it is

[@jayel27]

😂

[@fodilmerbah8256]

hahahaha

[@ridinglow6732]

Lol

[@adrienpayet]

Excellent video, i had a good time watching a comparaison between two amazing cameras i can't affort 😂 Thanks !

[@threefoldtv]

haha Glad you still watched and enjoyed!

[@davidpichadze]

Subscribed! Thanks for a great quality content.

[@NathanMillerVisuals]

As both a RED and Blackmagic URSA Mini 4K user I have opinions based off experience. Comparing a $19K RED Epic MX DSMC 1 from 2014 to a $3K URSA Mini from 2016. Footage looks nearly identical in daylight and sunset. I like the options the URSA provides for recording media, I mainly use the SSD recorder for regular 2.5" SSD which is very nice for long productions. URSA is more reliable on a production for it's boot time alone, I have literally missed live shots because the RED errored out, battery was dead too fast, or even it's 1 minute boot time. And finally customer support.... I have had two products from Blackmagic repaired quickly and for reasonably cheap. My OG BMPCC and URSA Mini 4K from water damage. Now the RED is eternally fucked now because the audio no longer works at all and RED straight up refused to fix the camera because they dropped repair support for DSMC 1 in 2018. My 1996 4Runner gets support still!! There's no excuse RED.

[@trayneadjeifilms]

Great review and comparison!

[@greghuglin]

Thanks for the video! I've had a RED Epic since 2011 and now find that RED will not service it if it breaks. Kind of like buying a new Mercedes and having them stop repairing them after 9 years. It doesn't make me very loyal to RED even though I have paid about $55,000 for their equipment. I also managed to have paid for my RED a week before they dropped the price by 50%. I just got the BMCC 12k last week and while changing the mount from PL to EF, I was unable to remove the little black baffle. Called them up and they immediately allowed me (at my expense) to send the camera back to them (I now live in Australia). I only had the camera for 48 hours, but I was impressed that they responded so quiickly. A few years ago I got a small waterdrop on my RED sensor while changing lenses on a boat while filming surfing in Tahiti. Called my RED 'rep' and he told me I couldn't clean it myself, it had to be shipped back to California. Since I had to shoot the next morning, I breathed on the sensor and carefully wiped it with a lens tissue, problem solved. Just like everyone that ever operated 16 or 35mm film cameras did in the past. Yes, I'm that old and have operated cameras from Super8 to 35mm Arris. So I'm hoping that BlackMagic turns out to be better to deal with than RED..we'll see. And now I'm gonna look for some way to keep that USB-C cable from moving! On my RED Epic both the HDMI output doesn't work any longer and neither does the SDI output. And, of course if I was really stupid I'd send it all the way back to RED and wait until they fixed it. OH NO, they won't fix it....and I'm not going to ever buy a RED again.

[@lonniesshow]

thx for the comments.

[@nathandd8541]

Amazing Amazing Review Thanks Guys

[@funguy4900]

Excellent review. I’m thinking about buying this camera. Now I have the information I need in making my decision.

[@snowguy2006]

The older BM cameras I used had too many issues but I own the 6kPro now and love it, the 12k URSA is definitely my next purchase. It's amazing you can even try to compare a 5000 dollar camera and a 17000+ dollar camera.

[@thegospelcallTGC]

Thank you for an unbiased video and I appreciate your opinions about both cameras. Although ai am personally going to get an ursa myself. God bless you.

[@ashtonhealan]

I use the URSA as my A camera for almost every shoot and I would recommend it over a red any day. The form factor is absolutely limiting but it’s a trade off for price which tbh the Ursa saves you money from all the headaches you’ll have with a red.

[@jwflix2558]

Can the Ursa 12K shoot in autofocus?

[@ashtonhealan]

@@jwflix2558 Sadely no

[@jwflix2558]

@@ashtonhealan do any of the models underneath have anytype of autofocus? (4.6K G2)

[@ashtonhealan]

@@jwflix2558 Nope, I’ve owned every black magic camera and none of them have had auto focus. You can finally add auto focus to any lens that has gears with the DJI LiDAR tool. You’ll need to buy the wire harness as well so you can use it without the gimbal.

[@jwflix2558]

@@ashtonhealan thank you for your insight !🙏🏽whats your instagram!

[@ScottBalkum]

Overall, I’d say this was a pretty fair video. You could dive into nit-picks but it wouldn’t change the results at this point. Your gripes about the RED are all pretty accurate. Boot up time has always been one of my biggest gripes as well. To be fair, Helium is 4.years old, today. BM 12K is couple of months old now. When DSMC3 is launched, it will be a more fair comparison. In the end, the truth is, either camera will do an amazing job. I personally wouldn’t shoot at 12K on BM just because it just doesn’t look right to me (opinion). I feel like the 12K was design to shoot a beautiful 4K image and that’s what I tell people as well. With 12K worth of pixels and subsampling, it can make a beautiful 4K image. But over all, I think you did a fine job and I think the BM will serve you well. I also suspect you won’t be selling your Helium anytime soon either... well... until DSMC3 is announced. Nice job!

[@threefoldtv]

Thanks Scott!! Glad we have a few people who can relate to the boot up time haha

[@8lec_R]

Ok. I genuinely have no idea how I was subscribed to this channel because this is the first video I've seen from you, but I'm glad I'm subbed. This was a nice video and well presented If you would not mind I have 3 opinions/critiques on the video (the video was great, I just have some thoughts I think might help for the full review) 1. There's some firmware issues on the u12k cameras where they exhibit a bit of aliasing and moiré. If past experience is anything to go by then BMD will fix it very quickly. I didn't notice it much in this video, just in the grass when the camera was close to the ground. 2. The point you brought up about the m.2 nvme drives was pretty good and they should defenitely do it. But it is not the easiest thing to do as the actual drives can get quite hot and the communication between the processor and drive can be done in different ways. But as you've said others have done it and BMD should also try to do it 3. I think, imo, you should group size, weight, thermals and noise in one category. Because bigger cameras can fit in bigger heatsinks which means they can run fans slower and even fit in bigger fans which can push more air around. Smaller fans are always more noisy since they have to spin faster. It may be very obvious to us, but to the newer people, it may not be obvious so maybe grouping these sections together may help them see what they prefer more, smaller size or a quieter camera. Once again, really enjoyed the video. Thx for making it. Have a nice day and cheers m8 ☺️ Edit: oh yea I remember, Epic Light sent me here lol 🤣

[@kanthimathimagesh6411]

Same here 😂

[@pulppictures4215]

Great quality review guys ! Thx so much :) Is it possible to see more footage from the BM 12k ? I'm still hesitating between the 2... The price and the workflow seem to be in favour of BM. That's why I need to see more footage to be sure :) Keep goin' that good way you are on :) Thx

[@ndavies8]

Awesome straightforward review. When price is factored ; BMD is the smart and superior choice.

[@myiaelliott294]

great review:)

[@publictt4923]

Please make more videos about BMU12k, you guys are the best 👏👏👏

[@threefoldtv]

Thank you! Oh yeah more videos will be coming!

[@chrisetheredge6647]

great review dude, all the gems I was looking for including the nvme usbc tidbit. 1st thing I thought was to buy a 2tb 2700mbps drive and slap it to the side of this thing but the cable bump issue may be bigger than i thought.

[@StreamVirtual]

The form factor is why I would want it, a little box isn't really ready to shoot without adding a bunch of crazy rigging which can be expensive as well.

[@ethangeiger5880]

I have had great experience with the support of my black magic pocket cinema camera 4K. I screwed up my camera It was totally my fault and black magic design knew this but they fixed it under warranty for me anyway and I got it back within a week It was pretty epic.

[@threefoldtv]

That's awesome to hear!

[@TheToneWork]

Great comparison! What you didn't mention in the video is the price difference. For $15k you can be shooting with everything you need for the Ursa 12k. The body alone for the RED is $25k without a monitor or any rigging. For that reason alone, I can't imagine why someone would buy the RED now.

[@threefoldtv]

We absolutely agree, if we were in the position of purchasing an a new Helium 8k or the URSA 12k we would absolutely go with the URSA 12k.

[@buckwilde1511]

Name brand holds a LOTTA weight though. The Red brand is very trendy, right up there with Arri. Camera snobs like to BRAG about their cameras like they do about cars .... Red still has a certain prestige that goes along with it. No matter how great a Genesis G90 (a FANTASTIC car) is, it'll NEVER have the prestige a 7 Series BMW or S Class Mercedes has - it's still a Hyundai. And it's unfortunate. I think if Blackmagic WANTED to make a camera that'll BLOW away a Red DSMC2, they could - at the same price point - but no one would buy it if it cost the same as a Red or Arri no matter HOW good it was. Sad.

[@NickHey]

Great video!

[@threefoldtv]

Thanks Nick!

[@4thwalltvandfilm]

Thank you. Nice video. Would have loved to see more in the dynamic range dept? Did you push ISO at all? Any thoughts on that?

[@threefoldtv]

We'll be more comparison in the coming weeks, so stay tuned for that! We didn't do many tests over 1000 iso but from our bit of testing it looks like the iso performance is on par with any other camera out there with a native ISO of 800 (such as the Helium)

[@4thwalltvandfilm]

@@threefoldtv thank you. Please show more dynamic range situations if you have the helium still.

[@prayforpeace2204]

Been using the UMP and Pocket 4k for many months now and love the image. I will hold out for an LF camera. Hoping for 8k LF!

[@girafingo9280]

Hi guys, love your reviews - I ended up getting the Benro PVX tripod after your video. Had a quick question - 5 months later, how is the 12k holding up? I'm tempted to make it my A cam but would love to hear how you're finding it - would you recommend it as a commercial A cam?

[@Yoshfilmsllc]

Thank you for sharing this video with us. I really enjoyed it! Based on your test footage and others, it seems like the camera really shines at the lower resolutions. The footage from the internal down sampled resolutions, 8k, 6k and 4k, look so much better than the 12k. The colors are richer, dynamic range seems better and the image is cleaner. What are your thoughts on the difference between the resolutions? If you have the time, it would be nice to see a more in depth comparison between the 8k of both cameras. Enjoy your weekend!

[@threefoldtv]

Yeah we will be driving into more in depth comparisons as we use the camera more. 😃

[@reanetsemoleleki8219]

I think what people get wrong about BMD is that they are a resolution obsessed company. If you read about the 12k sensor in the URSA you realise that it was never about resolution. The resolution is a means to an end. That end is image quality. The idea is that you take a 12k file from a sensor specifically designed for BRAW put it through Resolve and out comes a great 8k or 4k file. That's the idea, anyway.

[@Mark10ProVideo]

Concerning the not super sharp 12K. Was your lens able to resolve 80MP? Nice Video guys! Thank a lot!

[@3AcesFilms]

I think people have this thing in their mind about Red being like a lambo of cameras, always thinking you really really want one, but in this day and age the images produced by low priced cameras are just as good. Changed my mind about purchasing the red komodo, going to either buy a BM pocket6k again or wait for their next small camera. I might get hate for this, but global shutter IMO isn't a good enough of a reason/difference to justify paying 3 times as much plus taxes and import duties. I'm not going to be recording guitar strings any time soon, despite what Jarred Land might think

[@JoeCnNd]

Gap is closing more and more everyday. Most people just need a mirrorless camera like the a7siii on the high end. C70 if you need the nd filters and a proper camera would be just fine for nearly all productions.

[@3AcesFilms]

@@JoeCnNd 100% I'm perfectly happy using a 5 yr old sony a6500 mirrorless for most things like KZbin and even short films. (Only time I miss a cinema cam and raw is when I forget to correctly set white balance, and it becomes a pain to match stuff up in post).

[@fungpercy3081]

Good fair review, thanks, any good recommendation for the solution of the Canon EF mount for URSA 12

[@threefoldtv]

Unfortunately there is no 3rd party mount so no permanent fix for right now. I posted about it in BM forum and there is a little adjustment you can make to help it a bit. You can check it out here forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=122836

[@StringerBell2002]

BMD support is solid. They have US offices in Burbank and north of San Jose in Fremont. Great phone support as well as repair support with speedy turnaround times.

[@MrAlwaysOnTen]

20k vs 10k is a no brainer for me tho, great video guys

[@threefoldtv]

FACTS. Thanks for the comment!

[@eliovisita]

6k now hahaha

[@wailshudar]

Thanks for the comparison! It would help if you upped the contrast of your edits. GL

[@ritikrana9418]

Please make a video on colour science of this camera!! I mean the final image we get ...is it better than G2 4.6k??

[@alexanderklose6942]

Thanks so much for the coparison. I´m in the same boat to either swap out the helium for the 12k or swap out the pocket 6k for a Komodo. What I like about Blackmagic system, after shooting a big project in 2020 exclusivly on the Pocket 6k and 4k is the menu and workflow. Also that one company does it all is so nice. We have a lot of BMD products and use Resolve too. Braw is great and flexible as Red Raw for me. BUT... What really gets me back to Red is the fact that both Pockets shut of from time to time with no reason. Maybe because I used them so much and they do not last that long. Red is not cheap indeed but I personally had better experiences on reliability than with blackmagic. Also with the Pockets there have been noticable differences in DR. Especially neon signs, bright lights and everything that glows gives these little cameras a hard time. Don´t know if thats the same for the 12k but that has never been an issue on Red footage for me. Overall image quality I can´t help it but the 4k extra will not make a big big difference on the end. Seems like the pixel density of the 12k is kind of blocking the sensor from being more detailed than the Helium. Recording options Recording on SSDs is a great option but can cause really big problems if you don´t watch out for your readings on screen. We had a lot of cable fails on both cameras. As you said inserting media is much saver than recording via cable and usbc as a connection. Worst cables were the ones with screws made by tilta. 5 cables and all stopped working over a year of use. Red media is extremly expensive and way way overpriced. BUT, I never had a single issue in 4 years of using mini mags. With the pockets we had write issues, dead clips and wrong formated media (DITs fault) on CFast, SSD and SD Cards. So I ask my self whats better? Reliable or cheap? Oh and as tip for swapping batterys on DSMC2 cameras without powering down simply attach the DC or a DTap power cable and detach the vmount from the I/O Expander. Now you can insert the new vmount and done. No time waisted.

[@robertniessner554]

Hi Alex - I am wondering why you got shut downs with the pockets - as I have never experienced that with mine (except when the battery runs too low). I am also monitoring the BMD forums very actively and can't remember anyone reporting this. By any chance - are you using Canon compatible third party batteries? I have found them to be quite unreliable because the Pockets draw a lot of power (compared to DSLRs) and only high-quality LP-E6 batteries are able to deliver. I often use V-Mount batteries to power my PCC4k and it runs for many hours without a problem. And regarding the DR with neon signs, bright lights and so on. It seems that color science gen 4 has been set too narrow. With gen 5 now (you can apply gen 5 in Resolve 16.3 beta to BRAW) this problem is gone. Alternatively you might try my free LBK neutral v10 LUT for the Pockets, which I have designed to work around that gen 4 problem a bit. You can find it in BMD user forum when searching for LBK neutral v10 LUT.

[@alexanderklose6942]

@@robertniessner554 Hey Robert, thanks for your answer. Definately cable and plug related issue with the shutdowns. We had cables from 15 to 80 bucks but that socket on the pockets is just not made for heavy use. Vmounts are my power distribution of choice because these LPE6 ones don´t make sense. On the one hand on the other when the 6k is running in either to warm or to hot conditions for several hours it seems to not liking that. Shot in the studio for a live session on a ronin s for 4 hours straight with no issues. after that time the camera went down constantly and the soccet seemed to get pretty warm. Same on the 4k. Also shot for a couple of hours on the "Ostsee" last week in colder conditions. Same behavior. With the gen5 color its pretty much gone indeed. Not a big fan of using luts if I can avoid it but I will give it a try.Thanks

[@TheToneWork]

I've never had any of my BlackMagic cameras shut down. Maybe you got a dud? Or have some power issues?

[@alexanderklose6942]

@@TheToneWork could be indeed. or maybe because we use them like 6 hours a day for weeks in all conditions from warm to cold. I don´t know but just had not that much of luck with reliability.

[@aarones4378]

Thank you for this review. It's like these two camera companies make up where the other falls short. The UI in BM cameras is so dope. But I hate how BM cameras handle moire. I've seen the 12K perform with small patterns like window mesh screens and shirts and it's noticeably bad. I pulled my preorder because I hope that there's a filter that comes out first, but there are also some fatal errors in the Ursa 12K that are really disappointing. I just want BM to release a quality camera with a quality sensor and preinstalled OLPF.

[@aleksykubiak5621]

dude, you know 12k sensor is rgbw so there is no debayering process?

[@loudandclearmedia]

Thanks for the comparison! My biggest reservation about the 12K Ursa would be it's low light capability or lack thereof. Yes, the Helium isn't exactly a great low light cam either, but I've seen Ursa 12K footage that was quite noisy even at low ISO values. That makes sense logically because of how tight the pixel pitch must be to have that resolution on a small sensor, but has it been an issue for you?

[@chefmonstro7411]

Had the same question I was going to pull the trigger in getting one then I saw the low light footage and also noticed it’s not dual native. I might just pick up a 6k and wait, unless they answer the issue with a firmware upgrade which I highly doubt.

[@threefoldtv]

If noise and low light sensitivity is a concern id definitely recommend the pocket 6k, or any camera with dual native isos. So far for us as long as you expose property noise really hasn't been an issue. In our mind noise is pretty comparible to the Helium 8k.

[@chefmonstro7411]

@@threefoldtv thank you unfortunately for what I do occasionally I’ll get shots where I can’t setup lighting and need to shoot before the sun sets. Can’t take a chance based on quality in low light.

[@BrendanRosen]

My Ursa 4.6K's ef mount stopped recognizing the iris function, when I called they asked me to ship it to them. I really wish there was a repair option that didn't involve shipping the core of my business across the country, but Blackmagic replaced the EF mount and shipped it back at no cost. I love my 4.6K and I'm definitely adding a 12K to my collection.

[@rothvisuals]

Thanks for sharing about the bazooka!

[@hanshut8124]

I am very interested but I am missing a pre record or cache record option this is a must have.

[@GarrettMusic1]

This quality is insane

[@s.o.s235]

Really good info. How many ppl have said you look like a young Walt Disney?

[@jadoon702]

If I already have a Ursa mini 4K and a Ursa mini 4.6k (G1) should I get the 4.6k G2? Or should I be contemplating growing into the 12K for future proofing reasons ? and if I do get the 12K what is the minimum specs I need to have for my IMac Pro?

[@LoKimLinProject]

What lens was used though have you seen the footage with the otus lens yet? Insane!

[@stu9000]

Rolling shutter and moire I’m interested in seeing tested. Thanks

[@threefoldtv]

So far we haven't had any issues with moire but we also haven't had any textures that would necessarily cause it. Well test it some more in the coming weeks and see if we can find any issues!

[@hassantoufik]

Hi, I'm planning to buy an Ursa mini pro 12k. I have a full series of Zeiss ze lenses. Which has an electrical Irish ring. If I convert the Ursa mini pro 12k to ef mount, Can I control the Irish through the camera? If yes is ursa 12k produce good quality image with ef glass? Thanks

[@whatsupdate]

Can I use vintage c-mount cine lenses with a c to ef adapter to shoot 6k in super 16 mode on the urea 12k?

[@reyvaz2951]

20 minute washing this to tell me at the end you still have to do more testing, thanks!!

[@EugeniaLoli]

Nice comparison, thanks. You didn't link to the guy about sensor size as you said you would. Would be nice to have 1 second of each camera, showing skintones too, to download so we can see how they grade, thx.

[@threefoldtv]

Hey totally forgot to do that, its in the description now! I'll upload a few of the clips to Gdrive and share a link once I have them uploaded!

[@n.r.2258]

How can you measure Dynamic range in a medium lighted room in which you just have 6 stops of reflected light (at it’s best case) ?

[@seppwaldspecht3793]

Regarding the resolution comparison....ist's pretty sure the glass in front of the sensor that's not capable of 12k. I had good experience with BMD support. They've even sent me a Loan unit while my camera was in repair (6 days, including shipping). Thankfully RED has no USP left!

[@river718]

I’m just a BMPCC4K user but I’m planning on buying URSA12K…

[@MilNik47]

RED was a leader, now it is BLACK MAGIC!

[@Rayhanurkabir]

No, red was never a leader, it was always a hype, they are not a 'hype' anymore. Everyone knows red is scamming their customers and making money out of it.

[@sherazbutt5803]

black magic can easily kill someone why cant it take lead in the world?!

[@FEROXED]

Great practical review, thanks Treefold. The one feature that I was wanting to find out about, Does the Ursa 12K have a pre-record feature. As wild life film makers, this is critical, so as not to miss the start of the action:-)

[@threefoldtv]

Thanks for watching! I don't believe there is a pre-record option unfortunately. There has been discussion about it in the BM forums though so I feel like its something they will add down the road.

[@FEROXED]

@@threefoldtv Many thanks for the info.

[@frasermacmannis614]

Wonder how they compare to the C500?

[@HANIRAQ]

blackmagic did an impressive job.

[@joenicklo]

After using the Z Cam E2-S6, I want every camera to have the active lock mount.

[@Gsoda35]

Can you modify a locking mount to fit it?

[@SaintProductions1]

Do you still on the red helium & or Ursa 12k? & if so, which one is your go to camera at this point?

[@jeromechiu]

What is the actual crop factor for Super16 4K 240P and 8K FF 120P? I'd assume it's 3x and 2x respectively, but I'd like to make sure. [Edit] To be clear, I take the crop factor of FF 36x24mm to be 1x, so the 12K has a 1.41x crop factor for 12K DCI.

[@Justin_Allen]

Good review. Maybe I missed it but what lenses were you using on each camera?

[@alexanderklose6942]

18-35 cine guess

[@threefoldtv]

Yep, the 18-35 Sigma Cine. We kept it the same for both cameras to keep the playing field equal.

[@threefoldtv]

We did also use the Sigma 35mm, Sigma 50mm and the Tokina 11-20 Cine for any of the super wide shots you saw. For any side by side comparisons with the RED the TStop and all settings were exactly the same.

[@Justin_Allen]

@@threefoldtv Thanks. I guessed the Sigma 18-35, just wanted to make sure it wasn't rehoused or anything. I have the 8K IRIX lenses and am looking forward to seeing how they work on the 12K. I do admit that the moire issues have me concerned.

[@mantenbrink]

Damn I've used artlist so much that I know recognize all the songs i've used including this one

[@threefoldtv]

Artlist for life. ♥️ Sponsor us Artlist

[@alessandrovalentino3406]

My 6k pro was purchased second hand. Customer service was a little strange when I needed my screen replaced. It seems like they have a third party doing the repairs on the camera. They were responsive but the emails didn't look legitimate because of their format. In the end everything went well but it took over a month to get my camera back which is not good. I asked for the original cracked screen returned to me since it still functioned but they wouldn't let me have it. Also the screen they installed seems less bright than the original screen. Overall decent customer support but if you are not under warranty you may have to wait a while before you get your camera back so make sure you have a backup camera for jobs.

[@thefieldoffice]

How’s the moire on this thing? I saw one video that mentioned it was a problem and it gave me the shivers.

[@threefoldtv]

We have had zero issues with it so far.

[@thefieldoffice]

@@threefoldtv Good to hear! Thanks.

[@tommypickles13]

As a working AC, Blackmagic gets a bad rap for it's cameras. They're great, affordable cameras for indie filmmakers who don't want to break the budget. They still have a ways to go as far as ergonomics go, but that will come with time. A few notes on some of your points: A- The bootup time on the RED can easily be fixed with a VCLX or sharkfin to keep it powered. B - The built in ND's are really convenient for run + gun shooting. Especially if you don't have the $$$ to buy or rent filters. But my experience on commercial or higher end professional work, DP's have their own favorite IRND's they like to use, or a new "flavor" has come out they want to try. If you're going to use a mattebox anyway with a BPM 1/4, you might as well use the IRND of your choosing. Plus, dirt and debris are known for getting into those in-camera trays and a headache to clean. C - If your final deliverable is 2k, why shoot in 12k? Most media is ultimately consumed on IG or our televisions. 6k is more then enough to readjust horizons/ crop/ reframe a little, but that can be done with a level or lens change. D - If you purchased a $35k camera, and don't have the money for AKS, then you should spend your $$$ more wisely. It's like buying a $35k car and not taking into account gas, insurance, and maintenance. If you don't have the money, rent until you save enough to buy your own! Personally, I like the Arri ergonomics and ability to use camera control on a WCU and such. but for someone starting to get serious in the cinema world, I'd pass on this camera.

[@threefoldtv]

Hey Thomas, Thanks for the notes, A - While a sharkfin is great (and we have one and used it quite frequently with our helium) it still doesn't change the fact that the bootup time is astronomically slow compared to the Blackmagic. It also adds more weight to the setup and sometimes just using a single battery is just easier. B - We've used multiple different brands of ND's and while they may have different flavors, its still nice to have built in ND's as backup. Even if you don't use them, they can still be used to audition and figure out what density of ND you need much quicker than using a light meter or manually inserting filters into a matte box. C - We finish everything in 4k. We also rarely shoot 12k. For most of our content we are shooting in 8k and for some stuff drop down to 4k. That's the beauty of this sensor is being able to record raw in multiple different resolutions without having to crop down on the sensor (which is currently the only camera capable of doing this). Blackmagic does a good job of explaining why they designed a 12k sensor. D - We purchased our Helium and all of the accessories outright. We don't take loans out to purchase equipment we can't afford. When we originally purchased the Helium we had no problem paying the premium of what a Red camera and its accessories cost. We didn't switch to the URSA 12k because we couldn't afford the additional costs of owning a Red. We switched to the URSA 12k for the reasons I pointed out in the video. Just because the camera costs less doesn't make it any less of a camera.

[@jlmcclendon5660]

when will the 12k be avaliable

[@305kubrick]

I prefer my UMP over RED any day. Way better menu’s and fantastic images for far less. I just shot a project with a RED Gemini and it’s bootup time was atrocious. Menu felt like I was using excel on windows. The fact that RED charges $2k-$3k for an audio breakout box is ridiculous. My URSA comes with built in xlr inputs and ND. If RED charges $1500 for rehoused standard media, imagine what their cameras are really worth. Blackmagic is the real disruptor in the industry (they ACTUALLY delivered 4k for $4k and LESS) Remember when Jarrod promised that the RED One would be $4k then launched it at $17k? Screw that guy,.

[@ChrisChevs]

What about rolling shutter!?

[@threefoldtv]

We didn't do a ton of testing , but from the little bit we did I was super impressed how well it held up at 12k. At 4k it seemed almost non-existent. Well do more testing on it in future videos.

[@EugeniaLoli]

Also, I forgot to add to my previous comment, to get the best out of the 12k image (or even the 8k), you need super sharp lenses. Otherwise, lenses don't resolve the 12k image (especially in such a "small" for the resolution sensor). Very few such lenses exist. The cheapest might be the Sigma 40mm EF (its best performance is at f/2.0). Fuji's medium format GFX100 has it easier, since its sensor is twice bigger, so its lenses don't have to be as sharp as Ursa's 12k must be in order to resolve the full resolution. And remember, at 12k, this camera reaches diffraction at around f/4 (that ceiling it's f/5.6 if you shoot at 8k). While most cameras reach diffraction after f/8 or f/11, it depends on the res vs sensor size again. Because of that, you need lenses that reach their peak performance before f/4. Hence that Sigma 40mm I suggested which is known for its sharpness at low f/stops. This would be one of the very few lenses that can be used and deliver true 12k detail. IMHO, Blackmagic did a strategic mistake by going 12k. They could have gone 8k, and make the sensor bigger instead. Right now, people are hitting diffraction and lens resolving-power issues, and massive filiesizes too. I'd suggest you use this camera only in 8k, with sharp lenses, and never go above f/5.6 in that case.

[@daniellove162]

Anybody blown away by BIG fancy mega pixel counts will not comprehend your very relevant thoughts.

[@stevenfries7032]

Very good point!!!

[@MechanicalCore]

I saw some comments saying that this device will drop frames when using 8K 120fps, and that it needs sufficient light sources when using high frame rates. Is that right?

[@renaissancedigital5730]

It only drops frames with bad media. You do need a good amount of light when shooting high frame rates as your shutter speed has to be high. Not an issue outside in the daylight but inside yes. That isn't specific to the Ursa though

[@skyglidestudios3443]

Is it possible that 12K looks softer than 8K because there is no lens capable of displaying 8K yet ? Or is it just an oversampled 8K...

[@mariotriforce]

How dose it look on the other resolutions?

[@threefoldtv]

Great! We thought the 4k and 8k full frame footage looked fantastic. The Super 16mm crop in 6k and 4k slow mo is ok but it makes the noise much more visible.

[@mariotriforce]

@@threefoldtv interesting and good to know, every camera his it's faults:)

[@ronineditor9920]

I own a RED MX, Black Magic Pocket Cinema 4K and 6K. I really love the results I get out of my BMPCC cameras... I'm just trying to find something online with the Ursa 12K where it looks "cinematic" to me, or feels like a film. Honestly, so far, I like the BMPCC camera's footage so far a bit more for some reason. Everything I've been seeing for the 12K feels a little video'ish to me... I'm begging to find something where I'm like, "Ah, okay... that feels like a film." With RED, even in this, although the specs aren't as good, the RED footage just 'feels' more like a film to my eye. Believe me, I'm really trying to convince myself of getting the Ursa 12K but I'm not quite there yet, even though the specs are EXACTLY what I'm looking for, especially with basics like built-in ND.

[@matthewphillips5483]

Be careful of saying that Red looks like film...ole Jannard hates film.

[@ronineditor9920]

@@matthewphillips5483 Ha. Side bar... I actually got the 12K and I'm friggin' loving it... far better than I expected.

[@carson294]

The only thing I can say about Blackmagic is if you have a problem with the sensor they will not replace it. I have 6k pocket and have had an issue with the sensor and Blackmagic told me they do not replace a sensor. What about that???

[@darrenorange2982]

Z CAM is really the best. You need to check it out.

[@KillingTheMost]

greatt

[@BorisHeberer]

Whatever, minor differences? you get at least 3 Ursa Cameras for one Red. Accessories for Red are totally overcharged the same as the Camera itself.

[@FEROXED]

Hi Guys Loved this video, but have you come any closer to answering the question?

[@threefoldtv]

Well we sold our RED. Soooooooooooo

[@FEROXED]

@@threefoldtv That's quite a statement!! We are desperate to get our 12K URSA underwater, but cannot get a single dive housing manufacturer interested in building a housing. Seems there just isn’t enough market interest in the URSA cameras. Can you believe that...? Keep up the great work guys.

[@Shauny_D]

You mention kinefinity several times. What is your take on the Mavo?

[@threefoldtv]

We've never used them but they look like awesome cameras! If the Macon Edge had BRAW we'd buy it in a heartbeat. I think the only hesitation we'd have is the lack of US support.

[@Shauny_D]

Threefold yah support was our big thing too. That and you can’t try one unless you go to a trade show or know someone that look the risk and will let you fiddle.

[@LukasHauf]

My biggest problem with Blackmagic RAW is that it isn’t available in Final Cut Pro

[@threefoldtv]

Totally understandable, that is a big bummer it isn't supported yet. We completely switched over from Premiere Pro when they released Resolve 15 and haven't looked back. It was a little difficult right away, but we've come to love it. It really sealed the deal for us when BRAW came out too.

[@2pstudioslive768]

At the end of the day 12k is 12k. I'd rather buy 2 12k Cameras instead of a Red.

[@blender_wiki]

When I shoot with a Red camera I request always a backup camera on set.

[@threefoldtv]

Yeah, we can definitely relate to that! Any shoots that were over 30 minutes from our studio we always would bring a backup camera because we didn't know when the Red would decide to act up on us.

[@zoetmoments5625]

you need better Glass for your URSA Mini Pro 12K, the sigma 18 - 35 does not render 8K resolution well has much as people think. Try the following as see for your self, IRIX 45mm, 105, Canon CN-E, Sigma New Cine Line (Primes), and then try the ARRIR Signature Primes if you can get your hands on one and you will see a major difference between all of this and Sigma 18-35 which is a rehoused stills. The IRIX alone will show you a big difference it the best affordable 45mm lenses that can render 8K res really well the 105mm is even better. I do wish they produce some fast zoom lenes parfocal with. however I do understand why the 18-35 is a great lenses as well it the only 18 - 35 at T2 at it's price range there is no other in that category and then they have a 50 -100. but I don't recommend it for a 12K resolution

[@schoolboyjordan]

Don't understand why that one guy is hating, this was well made with a lot of info. The criticism he decided to give was less than helpful because anyone with a brain would know that 12k downsampled to 4k or 1080p like he asked would be even better. Keep up the good work I subbed. But to speak on the camera, they said that the 12K was really designed for VFX houses that need all those pixels. A camera is only a tool, most cinema cameras don't have IS, Autofocus, or other gizmos like that, so I ask people in the comments why do you need 12K? Especially considering the gold standard for cinema-quality has always been an Arri and their most seen camera the Arri Alexa that's used in Hollywood is 3.4k.

[@fluffcrunchmini4572]

I didn't think the new sensor cropped? 13:30

[@threefoldtv]

Only when shooting 4k over 120fps and when shooting 6k. When shooting 12k, 8k, and 4k under a certain FPS its still full frame. The reason there is a "crop factor" compared to the Helium is because it is a slightly smaller sensor than the Helium.

[@edrakel]

low light ?

[@DL-wm7uc]

Can the 12k record to a samsung t5 ssd?

[@threefoldtv]

It can! It will choke up at some of the higher data rates but is still feasible for quite a few resolutions and data rates.

[@DrMarjanTercelj]

No camera matches the wishes and desires of any particular user. You have to adapt and get used to a tool. So... 10 different people 10 different opinions. I want to see the image and i want to know, how reliable machine for shooting moving images is. And in cases when there is a lot of pre-production usualy light and everything is perfect on set, so recorded material would be good even if you shoot with smartphone.

[@sixgunmiller6198]

solution to battery draw, hire my mobile power. Go to almost any terrain. 800 amp hours without a hard charge, i can recharge your batteries while powering your whole set at zero noise while feeding my batteries with pv panels. See problem solved unless your in Kali I wont work Kali or snow, Sixgun don't do snow...lol

[@harveyspecterdj6661]

The RED has nice image quality but the difference is that insignificant it does not justify the huge price tag. It's nothing that cannot be fixed in post.