Reflex wings vs Non Reflex

[@FTroop37F]

Great explanation....very comprehensive and well presented. I now have a far better understanding of the characteristics, and pros and cons, of a reflex wing. I've seen numerous Power Point presentations with LASER pointers and nice graphics, and it took you sitting on the ground with Post-It notes to really bring this home for me. Thank you. PS ...who grabs only one cookie?

[@YankeeinSC1]

Dill is going to hit the roof when he sees this.

[@577buttfan]

Ill be standin by haha!!

[@Mark-wm1tj]

Nope,. The back of the glider can't support inflation buy down force,. The lines are not stiff and supported. This guy is wrong period. Mark From Florida Out

[@577buttfan]

@@Mark-wm1tj please make your first video on it and explain to us!

[@therealeugenecussons]

@@Mark-wm1tj I would think that with this FULL explanation you would listen to everything. Let me remind you what he said just in case you didn't hear it in the cheap seats at the back. The point of lift is not generated on the rear hence the downdraft is not affecting the profile unlike traditional gliders. The point is the lines need to be slack on trims open. Now watch the movie again and listen to everything if you want to contradict it

[@Mark-wm1tj]

@@therealeugenecussons now you are on half of the glider,. The back half of the glider is going nothing during reflex,. Look,. Go fly In reflex all you want. I'll stay trimmers in and stay as safe as I can be .

[@bitcoinbeast]

I keep coming back here to watch from 16mins18 about why not to have the trims half way out in turbulence. I forget why, but this is a great resource mate, cheers again

[@MitchG]

@@bitcoinbeast thank you!

[@scarroll451]

Thank you! I am a paraglider pilot transitioning to paramotor and considering motor wings to purchase. Am now leaning toward a Universal 1.1 because it is capable of full reflex, instead of half like the Roadster (I think that's what you said). Love the paper gliders flying through paper turbulence :)

[@JakeNBake]

i have one for sale : )

[@adam-newbloom]

Very helpful as I'm readying my Dudek manual... your explaination was far better!

[@michaeldose2041]

This is the best explanation I've heard of the difference between a reflex (aka hoaxflex, super death trap LOL) and a non reflex (aka dominator the greatest super wing ever, that I have a super financial interest in, blah blah LOL ) You explain this in detail without getting all super nutty. The picture you showed, slack b,c,d, is worth a thousand words, or perhaps ten thousand super words. Very nicely done! I give this video an A+ for it's super instructional value. I might add that I use the word super in it's literal sense as opposed to it's everyone gets a super trophy sense. Just to be super clear, LOL.

[@577buttfan]

You answered my questions as I watched the rest of the video,thx Mitch!!!

[@jb92563]

That sounds like a plausible explanation but so does Dell's. Who is Mitch and what makes his explanation any more valid? Aerodynamics engineer? Factory PPGWing designer? Not trying to be an ass, I just don't know what to believe about the conflicting Reflex explanations. I'm having a problem believing that there can be any significant up or down force on the rear half of the wing when in reflex mode and suspended by the A's only. What is the internal wing pressure when flying at top reflex speed? Is it enough that the reflex shape of the foil can be maintained and create some down force? I'd love it if the Wing designers would show some testing results that validates all these things are happening as explained. My pessimistic side though thinks that they can't prove these explanations and we are just dumb sheep believing that what they say is true and safe. All I have to go by are the accidents and that concerns me. I know I can fly my non-reflex Free Flight DHV 1/2 rated wing in thermals and turbulence and its behaviour is good and when there is a collapse its predictable and recovers spontaneously.

[@MitchG]

The difference is Im not trying to sell you anything. Dell is a liar and just wants to scare you into buying his gear. There are more people putting hundreds more flying hours on reflex gliders than traditional gliders every year. The reason is its 10x more convenient to fly ppg over pg and reflex wings let paramotors fly faster with stability and confidence. The people getting injured in the sport are not getting hurt from the wings they are flying, pilots who get hurt made bad decisions by flying in bad weather or flying into the ground. Doesnt matter what wing they had, they would still get hurt. Reflex is just a tool that gives the pilot more options and a larger performance window. Once you have been in the sport a while you will notice dells tactics on how he fools people into believing him. Its really sad that he does that.

[@jb92563]

@@MitchG I appreciate you effort to explain. I'm not a fan of Dell's advertising methods and weird ego either but he does have skills and I'm trying to figure out how a Dominator wing compares to say a Universal 1.1. Looking at the Dominator's specs and that its a Cima K2 with thinner lines I'm seeing discrepancies between whats claimed and what you really get in the air under the proper wing loading in a certified configuration. Your description of partial vs full reflex was another eye opener and I'm thinking a full reflex is a better idea like on the Universal rather than a partial reflex wing.

[@MitchG]

@@jb92563 The "race lines" are used on competition level freeflight wings. Almost all ppg wings use sheathed lines like the universal has because they are stronger and much more durable. The thin "races lines" or unsheathed lines only give you a very marginal advantage to efficiency. Its so small that you would not notice a difference at all on a ppg wing and they will wear down much faster. The universal is just as safe as a dominator with the trims in. But once you are ready and have proper experience and knowledge, you can release the trims on a universal and enjoy the extra speed where as the dominator will just always be a slow wing (comparing size for size)

[@alanmcn17]

Well said. My question is if the wing won’t collapse in reflex mode ....why is there no’s test data in that mode? Mitch clearly stated the test data is only in traditional mode.

[@justharryjohnson7250]

Sorry I'm not commenting I'm just looking to see if dell has had his say yet 🤣

[@xephonism]

he just commented a day ago

[@justharryjohnson7250]

@@xephonism lmao really ? I have to go and take a look lol

[@michaeldose2041]

Very well explained. With great pictures to illustrate the point. According to Dell I will die if I were to fly one of these wings. Thanks to Mitch I see that a reflex wing can be configured to fly exactly the same as a traditional wing, or trimmed to fly in reflex mode and why that is safer in turbulent air. Who doesn't like choices? Besides Dell (buy my wing or die) of course.

[@SharkyintheSky]

I'm a self-trained powered paraglider pilot and learning the science behind reflex as you explained it here really helps. I appreciate you explaining what Reflex really means in a wing and how is works compared to a traditional wing. Always learning.

[@commentcrafter4158]

They are deathtraps there is no such thig as reflex, yoy cant push a string, if you push down on a bed sheet, does the the frond of the bedsheet rise up? No it does not because it has no ridgidity. Reflex is for airplanes not paragliders. This guy is fooling himself. You cant push a string.

[@kcb5336]

@@commentcrafter4158 I love Dell. I see you got your talking points from him. However Dell is somewhat wrong here. No, you cannot push a string but that doesn’t matter. The reflex is still achieved just not thru a push. The end result is the same. The wing is now shaped with the reflex “tabs” dell points to. Give Mitch equal time to Dell here.

[@flylars]

Reflex really works, I have flown many 1000 kms PPG XC with a variety of such gliders, and yes, I have seen several small deflations flying in the rugged northern Norweigan landscape and climate. But then the air was seriously violent (On Paramania Fusion) I am also an ATPL commercial fix wing pilot and CFI/ CFII so flying is a big thing for me :-) There is much confusion on this matter, so this video is very relevant. This video explains it pretty well, but lacks the fundamental aerodynamical principles of what "Reflex" really does. It all comes down to the 3 basic airfoil classses; POSITIVE CAMBER line witch will create a negative pitch stability (conventional glider tend to pitch DOWN in decreasing angle of attack and vice versa), NEUTRAL CAMBER (symmetrical airfoil) that will have neutral pitch stability, and finally NEGATIVE CAMBER (reflex) that will give positive pitch stability (glider tends to pitch UP in decreasing angle of attack and vice versa) In essence; positive camber will cause center of pressure to move forward with increasing AOA, negative camber (reflex) will cause the exact opposite. The camber line is basically the average product of the bottom and upper airfoil suface. Reflex profiles will tend to arc up at the back. That upward arc is not an "elevator" but gives the whole airfoil its aerodynamical property of pitch positiveness. So what it really comes down to is wheter or not the glider will aerodynamically self-erect in pitch or not, if it does, it is a reflex glider. This is the real aerodynamical reason how a tail less wing can be pitch stable (hang gliders for instance) The "amount" of reflex or negative camber line is dictating the stabilzing force, and this i assume is the source of the misleading terms "full-reflex or semi reflex" Strong stabibilizing moment will give a performance penalty and vice versa. The Ozones for instance are less stabilized than many others and even if they are reflex gliders, they feels "lighter" and less power hungry. Also important to discuss that many modern ppg wings are "constant-reflex" (all ozone and the hadron xx for instance) meaning that the pitching moment is the same at all trim settings, even at full slow. Releasing trims on such gliders will not change the stabilizing moment but will reduce the incidence angle, reducing the angle of attack increasing airspeed. In such gliders you are always in "reflex mode" Some gliders also change the camber line when trims are released (increasing the stabilizing forces and putting more weight on the forward lines, but with a performance penalty) And finally, me personally; I always reduce airspeeed and fly active in heavy turbulence as part of my "Pilot in command of my destiny" philosophy Reducing airspeed will reduce potential energy and reducing speed to within the green arc is standard procedure for any aircraft (except for reflex wings maybe :-)

[@manofsan]

Thanks for the further explanation on the reflex wing. But usually there are pro's and cons to everything. What are the cons for the reflex wing?

[@flylars]

@@manofsan the cons are few, but if I should point at the only thing, it must be that reflex wings usually are a bit more sluggish and heavy on the handling compared to a conventional wing of the same size. To Get the same level of «playfulness» on a reflex glider, IT usually must be smaller in size., and thus more demanding in most aspects. Reflex gliders are a bit less performant when flown without power also. If I shold have only one glider for both free flight and powered, I would choose the Roadster3 as an example. I noe have a Kona2 and a Roadster3, Kona for those local fun ppg flights and free flying. Roadster for the longer XC flying, or when conditions are a bit rough and windy

[@flylars]

@@manofsan To see examples of how such profiles look, google EMX-07 and CLARK Y for reflex vs conventional profile

[@manofsan]

@@flylars I can't help but notice that these problems are there because paragliders & paramotors have notoriously low wing-loading. Since the gentleman who posted this video seems to be a helicopter pilot, I wanted to ask if a rotary wing might one day be suitable for use with a paramotor (ie. like a gyroplane). I'd picture a rotor mast being mounted to the top of a paramotor's main structure. This would result in a situation with much higher wing-loading than with a regular para-wing, and thus much fewer problems. Do you think it's feasible/practical?

[@flylars]

@@manofsan the main feature of a paraglider is its simplicity, low cost, ease of transport and such. The construction is in its core a low speed design, that should be flown in gentle conditions and will always be. Trying to push too much speed/ too hard conditions out of a soft wing will cause problems for sure (like competition flying where speed is the main thing) As long as we accept this and fly within the "green speed arc" the paraglider works really well, and can fly serious missions. The paraglider is the craft that gives me my most cherised flight experience, more so than flying a fix wing turboprop or helicopter for instance. A rotor wing has its own cuprits (I have decent experience with helicopter flying), and both helicopters and autogyros are actually very touchy craft, highly dependent on mechanic integrity and pilot skill. Cost will rise, and I think that a rotor mast must be rigidly mounted in a frame for it to work properly As long as pilots accept the paraglider as a slow speed/ gentle condition aircraft, many of the problems with accidents will be avoided, paraglider is great as such! Also, knowing that the trend of very small wings is potentially very dangerous as the gliders can be very temperamental in case of a poorly stabilized approach, especially with a motor on the back. I like the paraglider as it is

[@iKenFlyPPG]

Just here getting re-qualified on this topic, cant believe it's been 4 years since you released this one haha

[@slodays1158]

Great info. I assume when you say the trailing edge of the reflex pushes down it's not that it's pushing "on a string" but the pressurized wing is more rigid and has enough counterforce to keep the wing level. Tell me if I'm wrong or explain it better if needed but this is what I'm thinking. Of course all of this; as you explained, is reliant on a properly weighted wing in acceptable conditions for use. Thanks for the post. It was needed.

[@slodays1158]

@Log Splitta Thanks man it is very fascinating. There is so much crazy info out there.

[@MitchG]

Slodays, you are correct. The ram air into the inlets pressurises the wing so its stiff and takes the shape.

[@ranman58635]

But over time those rings collapse and break down inside.

[@LoganAddisMusic]

@@ranman58635 can you explain?

[@rlw5786]

Excellent tutorial Mitch. Thank you for the in depth explanation.

[@SemiFlyingPharmacist]

Easily and simply explaind problematics,that´s how I like it! Great video Mitch, many thanks!:)

[@keithdolezel488]

ah that bit at the end had me rolling.. because we all know exactly who you are referencing. I love my Roadster 3 and am glad you put a little bit more explanation behind the fact that it says you can go full trims out and full speed bar (without breaks)

[@WillFly]

Absolutely awesome!

[@aerobatty1]

Very informative. One thing I’m not quite clear on. Your little trim position scale. Does the top of the scale represent trims all the way out PLUS full speed bar? Or just trims all out.

[@mamatuja]

Downforce on the Soft wing tail? How does it work? Pushing down on those D lines?

[@gsp2west]

Great video. You just doubled my knowledge on wings.. Thanks..

[@coryturner9140]

Reflex wing may be more stable under acceleration due to wing loading but once things go wrong it’s going to be much more dynamic and uncontrollable. With the center of lift that far forward you have immense wing loading on the front section of the wing. You’re turning a 20m wing into a 7m wing essentially and everything is accelerated when crap hits the fan..

[@MitchG]

Fly high. Fly with a reserve. But 99% of pilots don't have any issues with reflex wings.

[@FGuilt]

I did not know the lift was distributed to the a lines. I just thought it was about inflation characteristics and speed. Thanks for the great lesson.

[@MikeCotter1]

Thanks Mitch... GREAT INFO PRESENTED PERFECTLY!!!

[@pacmanflys]

Awesome video Mitch awesome helicopter Apache I was on tanks for 20 years that's why I like the skytap angel love your videos Man

[@sexonlegs666]

Also, I have met a lot of pilots who complain that the brakes can't be reached while in reflex mode, and don't seem to understand you should not use them while in reflex mode. Dangerous. Tip steering or weight shift only.

[@mikegiles9303]

Sam Smith.in other words Dell is right,. you can't use your brake lines to active pilot the glider in turbulence ! So if you SUDDENLY do get into turbulence that is threatening to take your life while in reflex mode,which you eventually will, you have to take your hands from your tip steer handles then take in both of your trims and then somehow get your hands from your trims to your brakes to even begin to active pilot and attempt to save your life while you are in rough turbulence and being jerked all over the place and possibly in a face down spiral and about to pass out from the gs ? You got to be kidding ! You make Dells case better than Dell does ! There is no ability to even develop active piloting skills with a glider in reflex mode because there is no feedback from the glider AND no ability to even access feedback to active pilot to save your life if there was any to begin with. WOW ! You can't even do anything to re-inflate your glider ! You guys have convinced me ! I'm going with Dell and any wing but reflex. Thank you !

[@roberteshelman5917]

Great tutorial, Mitch. It seems there is not enough discussion on this topic within the PPG community. "Stabilator Talk Time" should be your new series. Awesome job my friend!

[@adibabi]

Hey Mitch, what's your take on the collapse issues on the new Niviuk Kougar 3 (original risers) this seemed to be evident at full speed is bar and trim. Over accelerated by design???

[@MitchG]

Yes basically. They either needed to reduce the max speed or add more twist (wash in) to the wing tips. The tips dont have reflex which is why the collapses are starting at the tip. Niviuk gliders kinda have a bad rep for this. Their slalom glider doberman 2 had similar issues which is why nobody flys it

[@adibabi]

@@MitchG Thanks Mitch. Is that the same for most PPG wings or is it something that just NIVIUK do? Also, I don't suppose you know the technical details of what they market as their "advanced reflex system profile" and how that differs from say the standard constant reflex profile of say an Ozone wing?

[@MitchG]

@@adibabi I believe most ppg wings do not have a reflex profile at the tip. I dont know how niviuk designs their reflex profiles but it appears they either lack in testing or they allow unsafe angle of attack ranges for their gliders

[@brenthollady]

Well done Mitch! I think I will go ahead with the Universal 1.1, thank you for clearing this up!

Does this guy fly apaches for work and paramotors in his free time? Does it get any better than that?

[@2cqql1]

Only thing close would be Mark.

[@CallMeTimmy]

This dirty Leg is now subscribed. Thanks for the class, Chief!

[@djbrookes3276]

Very useful and explained perfectly. 👌

[@barrywebber100]

Good explanation. Thanks for posting.

[@abbott876]

This is the clearest explanation of Refex I have seen. Thanks so much Mitch.

[@Tommyflies]

Helicopters are neat

[@AnthonyVella]

Tom Kubat 😂

[@misterdeplorable2088]

Hey Tom, I'm impressed with your swimming pool work. Does the angel have the same kind of buckles as the flat top?

[@misterdeplorable2088]

That was 1 Of the 1st ones I watched So I wasn't paying attention to the different buckles that are on all these machines... We need to buckle up five people into five different paramotors ....dip them in the water upside down and have an old fashioned Houdini style race.....lmao

[@andrewcloy1]

So informative. Awesome video, thanks bubba

[@TheFreeLandersGuide]

Just crossed over after 10yrs. of Freeflight to PPG. I appreciate this video, how informative it was & the way you broke down the characteristics between a normal FF wing vs the PPG. I've been flying much more cautiously on my new rig. because of my lack of understanding the true difference. I've taken Huge collapses in Freeflight, do I check the surge the same if I was flying in stronger conditions? Can I trim in, kill the motor & thermal with the PPG? If there's other key differences we as "cross overs" are or would be unaware or ignorant to? Just looking to be on point if or when something happens. 150lb pilot flying a HE MVL125 Windtech Kinetik 3 22m Front mount Beamer3 for redundancy

[@MitchG]

@TheFreeLandersGuide if you find yourself with a huge surge then yes you should check it. Yes you can thermal with a ppg, definitely have the trims in and don't try to thermal with trims out because you will just sink out. Some pg pilots will just let brake toggles flop free in the wind but you should always properly Stow ppg toggles so they don't get sucked into the prop. Don't use full throttle and pull a bunch of brake at the same time or you can stall. Try to land smooth and flat like an airplane because of the extra weight, don't plop down the last 2 feet like some pg guys do.

[@THE-APEX]

Hey Mitch - I posted this on Tuckers channel and wanted to post the same with you... the Russian kid from Skymax Paramotors is doing a tour of the USA and he’s bringing five paramotors with him, looking for peeps to fly with and place to fly out of. I would love to see a vid of the two of you flying - maybe Woody, Gorilla PPG, Mark Huneycutt, Kyle O, Mitch G, Eric from Aviator, Mark Arenson. Don’t mean to detract from your vid. You would just need to reach out to him. Just a thought. I’m going to post this on the other guys channels as well. Lets see who hosts our guest.

[@nedmacallen]

Dropping some knowledge on the tubes!! Thanks for sharing this is a great explanation! The sticky notes are key 🔑

[@sexonlegs666]

At last a good explanation reflex. My instructor got very upset when I asked him about what dell says. He has flown thousands and thousands of hours and said total crap... He used o fly competition. Flown longer than SUPER DELL. DELL does not seem to even get the simple principles of reflex and aerodynamics. I kept asking him how he thinks he is a world champion. I pointed out to be a world champion you have to travel and compete with the world or be observed for you world breaking endeavours. He banned my comments and stopped making the claims. The Dominator is a simple rip of off of the Skywings K2 anyway, with an evocative name, discontinued years ago... Good video thanks

[@pdk63]

:D If a helicopter has a reflex section on the tail it must be good! Thanks for a proper covering of the reflex wing vs. normal wing.

[@ripmanridin7092]

Great stuff buddy..............p.s. got a new present coming in two weeks. I'm buying, when we meet, if you can guess!

[@BuzzMoves365]

Wedding ring tattoo… that’s true commitment or bad decision making 😂 😅 Here’s hoping for the first🤙

[@GiornoBon]

The best explanation ever! Thank you!

[@sudosuga]

Wojtek Hewig used a foot stirrup attached to the A lines to test full reflex collapses. He did get it to collapse and ended up in a terminal spiral. (Not sure if its still on youtube or not. circa 2010) I will give you highly collapse resistance, but nothing an any configuration is fully collapse proof. Funky air can and does happen. Frequently the really bad results don't make it to youtube. The danger zone can extend into full reflex and standard modes. Like you said altitude is the safest option.

[@MitchG]

Do you know what wing?

[@sudosuga]

@@MitchG Not sure on which wing he crashed on. He was the Paramania test pilot. He was attempting to get DHV certifications for German and EU regulations.

[@miguelsolorio5544]

Thanks Mitch I really appreciate it that's a real good video good explanation about full reflex and regular wing

[@X36hypnotizeX36hypnotize-nb6of]

Dammit I was just fully convinced that the dominator wing is the safest and was going to buy one tomorrow now I don't know what to do for my PPG wing

[@MitchG]

Safety comes from the pilot. If you fly in a thunderstorm you will die on any wing. A reflex wing can do everything a dominator can do plus more because you can fly safely with speed. Dont let dells marketing hype fool you into buying an outdated freeflight wing

[@X36hypnotizeX36hypnotize-nb6of]

Thanks man but what wing do you think is the safest? I would like to do sats and stuff with it as well

[@MitchG]

@@X36hypnotizeX36hypnotize-nb6of dudek universal is my favorite all around wing.

[@don7294]

If you haven't purchased a wing yet, contact Andrew at SkyTap skytapparamotors.com/ and check out his videos. He has the updated Cima. The Dominator design is outdated.

[@mikegiles9303]

Marketing hype ? I have watched the video of Dell flying in a gust front from a storm that was practically whipping up froth on the waters surface and not only did he not die but his Dominator didn't collapse at all ! Lett's see you do that in your reflex. Show us.

[@RobinsonRoxy]

Spot on - thanks for taking the time to produce this video

[@NelsonsWings]

Good to see a video! Of course, any ram air wing can deflate, if the AOA goes negative enough AND the force on the As is less than than the downward force on the wing. When would that happen in PPG? Probably never because you are not thermalling in big air with a motor. One other thing to consider, many 2-liners are very deflation resistant on full bar, due to them getting an effective reflex effect in that config. If the leading edge does let go in that config, it is spectacular....

[@MitchG]

I agree. I wonder though if you did fly through a patch of really strong sink, maybe the a lines would go slack for a moment but the trailing would return the leading edge to positive angle of attack before it developed into a complete frontal? Similar to a "wire twang" event in a hanglider.

[@NelsonsWings]

@@MitchG Well... the problem would be twist and cravatte like you mentioned

[@MitchG]

Toss the laundry! Lol

[@billcallahan9303]

Great & easily understandable report! Best one I've seen.

[@32laurens]

Hey Mitch, I have been following your videos for about two years now. I finally got around to do paramotor training (thanks covid) and guess what... I am here again because this is used as a training video! Just wanted to let you know that. Bloody useful information!

[@MitchG]

Thanks for sharing. Where did you do training?

[@32laurens]

@@MitchG In Victoria Australia. Done my first four of twelve days.

[@bitcoinbeast]

So glad I watched this, thank you for taking the time to explain this ✌🏻🪂

[@alfredclemency4952]

Ah your video made me miss my army days. I was a Uh60 crew chief at Katterbach Germany. 1st Armored prior to Gulf War. 3/1 aviation, Apache battalion. Anyway good info cheers.

[@MitchG]

Thank you for your service Sir

[@kaljsdlksjfd3286]

What about the scenario you are flying through sink while the motor is providing a lot of thrust? In that scenario the motor can be pushing you with an upwards component vector while the sink is forcing the wing down. In that scenario you can loose tension in your As causing a collapse

[@flyul1]

Thanks for the great explanation . It is spot on!

[@therealeugenecussons]

...and that ladies and gentleman is why we can fly mid day kalahari thermals with Hadron XX and survive. You might puke but you wont collapse and if you do, it will recover albeit your underwear might not after 6 hours of shitting in it. Well done on the explanation bud, perfectly done!

[@CraigThomas2070]

My buddy dumped a ripit on himself after getting blown up. His arm briefly caught on fire, but he was ok. Meanwhile over the radio he is flipping out thinking he is bleeding. Had to show him the nearly empty can for him to believe he wasn't dying. He drank the rest to calm down.

[@MitchG]

Hahaha

[@jasoncosner733]

Got my new wing and have had some flights on it now! I’m really loving it! rock solid in The rougher air and fast on a xc🚀🙂 so much better at going into a headwinds well 😁

[@wimperelly]

Very good explanation. I still have a question. I fly 95% of my time on coastal sites for soaring. I've had and tried many wings. So I consider to buy a Paramotor wing, for example a Freeride 19m. Reasons for me, as far as I know are that it can be flown early when normal paragliders fly but also can fly much longer when the wind increases and normal paragliders have to stop and the mini wings comes out. But can I free fly a Freeride in the mountains safe. Not the intention to thermal all day. And what would be the safest configuration to fly on the coast (trims in or out) and the same question flying in the mountains, free flying a Paramotor wing on a sunny summer day during the day? Your video was already very helpful but the questions above remains.. Thx in advance for your answer. Best regards Wim

[@MitchG]

You can use something like a freeride for a do everything kind of wing. It will allow you to fly it in more conditions than you could a PG wing. If you are using the brakes you shouldn't be trimmed all the way out. Once I'm trimmed halfway out or more, I try to not use the main brakes anymore. If you want to freefly, you should trim all the way in for maximum efficiency. The best option would be to have 2 wings, a big floaty wing for light winds and small one for strong winds.

[@wimperelly]

@@MitchG thx Mitch. I do have 2 small wings (16 and 19m) to fly with stronger wind and a 24m in normal soaring conditions. And a 20m single skin to fly in the mountains) But I wanted to sell the 19m ozone zero3 and the Niviuk Artik 5 to replace it by, for example a Freeride. For relax mountain flights I still have that single skin left and I keep the 16m for hard soaring conditions and a smaller flight in the mountains. In fact I thought to buy a reflex paramotor wing that could replace the 19 and 24m normal gliders at the dunes.

[@davidgreen-nx1bx]

great information thanks for sharing I normally fly in early morning so the air is normally smooth I fly a 20 m warp as well as a 21 m freeride usually I fly both in mid trims settings I did not know that was the most dangerous setting I do fly in power attack mode on the warp when speed bar is used again mostly I fly in very calm air recently I flew the warp with trims in all the way trying to conserve fuel did not like the feel of the wing at that setting

[@MitchG]

If you fly in calm air then mid trim setting is fine. Theres trade offs to everything. With the trims all in the wing will recover from collapse easier but the wing is also much easier to stall if the pilot is heavy on the brakes. Also mid trim on the warp is around 7 or 8 which is similiar to the freeride with trims full out as you may know. Imo the danger zone to use brakes on the warp would be trims anything past 7 and with the freeride anything past the white line. Can be done but should only be done in smooth conditions. If you must deal with strong conditions, trims in is best unless you need to penetrate a wind then let the reflex do the work.

[@leagreenway4051]

Hi I find your videos very interesting and informative and unbiased. My flying started in 1996 with an Arcus Swing tandem Paraglider have done a couple of SIV courses in Olu DeNiz Turkey have approx 150 hours on free flight, have travelled to France and Switzerland to fly. I gave up flying for 18 years as life gets in the way of having fun and a weekend spent sitting on the side of a hill in the UK para waiting can be a bit selfish with young children at home. The last 6 months having time to look past life and get the opportunity to back to flying I decided to try paramotoring. I qualified with Sky School a few weeks ago Alex, Zeb & Ricardo have a great deal of expertise and patience it was a fantastic experience. I am fortunate to have several fields that I can use within a short walk and a 2 minute drive, since qualifying I have approx another 15 flights with total powered flights of 30 and approx 30 hours of flying a parajet Zenith Moster my20. The wing I decided to learn on is an Advance BiBeta 6 41mtr tandem wing as recommended by Fly Bubble the plan is to use it for free flying and Paramotoring. The wing is very predictable and also very very slow perhaps I was a little hopeful trying to use one wing to cover both bases. I am 190 kg / 418 lbs all up on Paramotor fully fuelled 12ltrs and 140kg /308lbs all up for paragliding. The speed of the Bibeta is slow to fly with other Paramotor’s as they seem to be a third quicker again and I get left well behind even with trimmers fully out. For Paramotoring I am looking at the Roadster 3 size 30 as a possible purchase now as the weight range seems to work is there another wing which you would recommend I look at as I seem to be over the recommended ranges of all the others. Thx for your videos please keep making them kind regards Lea

[@MitchG]

The dudek universal is a better wing than the roadster imo. It comes in a size 34 as well! With the uni, it has a much longer trim range compared to the roadster and it will be faster even if you get a size 34. Cheers

[@leagreenway4051]

Mitch G Thanks for your advice I will see if I can get a test flight on one cheers for quick reply : )

[@jasonanderson261]

theres not many people (unless youve been there) that laugh as hard as i did at the opening of this video... rip it is OFFICIALLY the drink of war.... hahahahah... i have lterally witnessed soldier on soldier fist fights over the last rip it.... lol solid video thabks for the info

[@alanmcn17]

So if this wing cannot collapse in full reflex mode ...why does the test data not bear that out?? The test data you mentioned is only with the trims in ... right. Or did I misunderstand?

[@MitchG]

Because the test that they use to certify gliders is not done to see IF the gliders collapse. The test only measure how a glider recovers from a collapse if the pilot doesn't do anything after collapse.

[@alanmcn17]

Mitch G Thanks for the reply. So would it be beneficial to test the collapse recovery in reflex trim?

[@MitchG]

@@alanmcn17 no because the standards for ratings are already set. For example, a dudek universal is en B rated with trims in. If you let the trims out half way and pulled the a lines to collapse the wing, the recovery would take longer and the glider would turn more from the extra speed. That would then change the rating of the glider to a en C or en D just from that one test. So they certify it with trims in only. There are free flight gliders that have trims as well but are only certified trims in.

[@alanmcn17]

OK ...thanks so much for the education!

[@MikeFlyItAll]

Mitch, great video brother... I learned a lot from it and things I was curious about...Thank you...

[@bikemancody2752]

Reflex is, pitch positive. Excellent video.

[@drewwiard5581]

Outstanding.

[@WiltshireMan]

Very helpful indeed. Thanks

[@JohnnyFaber]

It says a shitload about ppg flying when a badass apache pilot is explaining the finer points of reflex and using the stabilator of that AH-64 as a table...

[@mamatuja]

can you even compare Apache helicopter Wing reflex to soft wing paraglider reflex? I need to look into this but most of your video did make sense.

[@hadleymanmusic]

At first I didnt know you were discussing parafoils.

[@andreimarius9695]

Many thanks for this video. Please let me know Hadron 3 , does it will fall on Hadron XX criteria ? All the best to you !

[@MitchG]

yes, very similar wings

[@weedboyx]

so basically non-reflex are safer? I am about safe gliding no bullshit stuns and tricks or performances, total beginner that never fly with anything. So I am more about flying tomorrow than doing some crazy loops. This is still question not statement since I have no skills

[@MustardMustache91]

OMG I haven’t had one of those cookies in 7 years but as soon as i saw them it came right back

[@chrisjokinen217]

I saw the videos you mentioned and wanted a dominator after seeing them. Now I need to do more research, might just stick with my old Apco Thrust

[@ryandinan]

Mitch, this video should be required in all ground school for paramotor pilots. Excellent explanation! I fly a Roadster 3 26m (260lbs all up) and I've been really trying to cut through Ozone's marketing with regards to their riser design on this wing. They claim the trims work exactly the same as using speedbar, so a pilot can use one or the other, and get full performance (reflex) and speed out of the wing. However, this has not been my experience at all. Trims full out and no speedbar give me about 5mph extra (and according to your drawing, some reflex). With trims in and full speedbar, I get about 5mph extra too. But, trims full out PLUS full speedbar give me about 10mph - and I'm assuming, the full amount of reflex built into the wing. So there definitely is a difference between the trims and the speedbar on this wing... I'm just not sure why Ozone says otherwise. If you could offer some insight, I'd be greatly thankful!

[@MitchG]

The speeds sound right for your wing. However some ozone wings are different in that they dont gain reflex as you speed up. They just have a semi reflex or moderate reflex profile. That's why they say trims and bar are the same because they design them to only change angle of attack while reflex remains constant

[@ryandinan]

​@@MitchG This is what Ozone says: "To increase cruise speed you can use the accelerator system, release the trimmers, or do both. Using the speed system has exactly the same effect as releasing the trimmers so it is safe and possible to fly with the trimmers in the standard position whilst using the full range of the speed system." Here, I think they're using the terms "speed system" and "accelerator system" interchangeably, both of which refer to use of the speedbar. So, after re-reading this and watching your video, it would seem like this wing ONLY gains a reflex profile when both the trimmers are released AND speedbar are used together. This would be why they say it's safe to use bakes at all trim settings - but never when fully accelerated. However, per Ozone's own wording above, it sounds like I can use brakes while on speedbar, as long as my trimmers are in the slow (standard) setting?

[@MitchG]

@@ryandinan any time your trims are all the way out or on speedbar, you should only use speedbar. That is the most safe thing to do. Pulling brake removes the reflex in the wing and makes the wing easier to collapse. Doesnt mean that it will but it can

[@ryandinan]

@@MitchG Yeah, the only mention in the manual about NOT using brakes, is when using speedbar fully accelerated. That's why I was wondering if speedbar with trims set to slow would be acceptable, but it sounds like maybe not... Maybe the speedbar is what is responsible for most of the reflex profile, thus, don't; use brakes when using speedbar, no matter what the trims are set to.

[@ryandinan]

I'll add that the airfoil shape definitely changes with the speedbar, judging by the positions of the line sets on the risers. The trimmers seem to simply change the B, C and D lengths, while keeping the A's relatively consistent. And again, this would go against their claim that releasing the trimmers and using the speedbar have the same effect; they clearly change the wing's angle of attack in different ways. Maybe what they mean to say is that they both speed up the wing approximately the same amount (but in different ways)?

[@jdean216]

Most informational video ! Thank you!

[@jconger7543]

Nice mitch. Great explanation. 👍

[@williamdistel2661]

Nice video, Very good knowledge and presentation. Well done.

[@punchmcduff6446]

Sorry, you may be a heli pilot but you don`t seem to understand aerodynamics in relation to a para-glider airfoil or any other airfoil for that matter. C of G is generally 30% from the leading edge of the wing. Center of pressure is where the maximum lift is which is different to C of G. If you release the pull pressure on the rear lines, Where has the C of G moved to? A. Forward of the C of G, which makes the wing UNSTABLE and extremely sensitive to pilot input. Modern fighter jets have computer corrections to pilot inputs because more speed requires C of G to be moved slightly forward of the C of G for the particular wing AIRFOIL.

[@MitchG]

Cg doesnt change much on an airplane in flight (only slightly from fuel). A paraglider wing is separate from the pilot and connected with strings. By changing the trim position and the length of the lines, you are changing the cg and cp in flight. The benefit of a reflex airfoil is as AoA decreases, the cp remains near the leading edge instead of moving aft along the chord like a traditional pg does. Also paragliders have a pendulum stability effect that airplanes dont have so changing cg doesnt make the paraglider pitch unstable like a typical airplane

[@punchmcduff6446]

Yes I agree, but you cannot have reflex in a paraglider wing as it is not a solid structure.

[@MitchG]

@@punchmcduff6446 that's where you are wrong my friend. Ram air creates pressure in the wing. Clearly it's enough pressure to hold an airfoil shape because we fly with them. Reflex is the same thing just in the opposite direction on the trailing edge. Question? Do you even fly paragliders?

[@punchmcduff6446]

So you are saying that a paraglider wing that is inflated with air cannot be deformed by the top surface airflow? Air can be compressed. When that happens then the rear riser cords will slacken causing the pilot who is a pendulum weight to move forward of the c of g to take up the slack making the wing less forgiving. The c of g of an airfoil does not change.

[@MitchG]

@@punchmcduff6446 they can deform, but only if the compressed air outside becomes greater than the internal pressure. Cg does change on a reflex paraglider when you release trims. Clearly evident by changing tension on rear riders as the cg shifts forward. Can you elaborate on "wing becomes less forgiving?" As I mentioned in the video, reflex wings become more collapse resistant the faster you fly while traditional pg wings become easier to collapse the faster you fly. That's a proven fact. I feel like you are trying to argue fixed wing aerodynamics and apply that to paragliders. I'll ask you again, do you even fly paragliders?

[@darcynafe7821]

Enjoyed the video. Good information, well presented. Thanks.

[@manofsan]

Thanks for the nice explanation on the reflex wing. But usually there are pro's and cons to everything. What are the cons for the reflex wing?

[@MitchG]

For sure the con is they are slightly less efficient than a freeflight wing. The difference in efficiency is about 15-20min of extra flight time if you were to fill your tank all the way and fly the maximum time. In reality, nobody would use that extra efficiency anyway. Most pilots dont fly the maximum time they can. Also, non reflex wings are so slow in comparison that the extra efficiency isn't worth it since you can easily become parked with just a slight headwind. There is a reason 95% or maybe more ppg pilots are all flying reflex wings and 99.9% of pg pilots flying pg wings

[@manofsan]

@@MitchG what further advancements are coming for para-wings? Or is Reflex the ultimate improvement?

[@MitchG]

@@manofsan my prediction. The comp level pg wings are 2 liners that allow control by pulling on the rear risers while on full bar. I predict that in the next 5-10 years, that will trickle down to ppg slalom wings so slalom pilots can hold full speed bar and control with wings with their hands only. But that will only apply to comp level wings. Tech for ppg wings has almost peaked as far as performance goes imo

[@stevenjolynnsevede4270]

I was told on a full reflex you can use brakes on full trims out but not use brakes on speed bar with full trim out

[@MitchG]

It depends on the wing. Check the manual. Still, even if it says you can use the brakes, that takes away the reflex profile of the wing and increases the chances of a collapse in turbulence. Trims out and holding the brakes is the worst thing you can do in turbulence

[@lucianosantucci108]

Nice coffee table. great explanation - cheers

[@mechanicandskills7215]

A reflex wing is ALWAYS in reflex mode no matter what trim settings there is NO put in reflex mode ...cheers

[@MitchG]

Not true for every reflex wing. Look at the hadronxx, when flaps are engaged, the c risers are pulled down, removing the reflex. Many reflex wings have very little reflex with the trims in and then as you release trimmers, the c and d risers are extended more so than a and b risers which changes the wings profile and adds reflex. That's what I mean when I use the term reflex mode. Also any time you are pulling brakes, you are not in reflex mode.

[@mechanicandskills7215]

@@MitchG i believe you but if you got time pls watch and let me know what you think kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqbFq2Vte8R_gq8

[@cardwell5150]

Great video 👍 thanks

[@mullenaero4486]

Excellent Video! Thank You

[@vmlinuxz]

Great video Mitch!

[@PPGExplorer]

Great vid and info! Thank you.

[@hadleymanmusic]

That them buff kitchen cookies?

[@rupman27isback]

I appreciate the long and detailed video. But long story short do you recommend Reflex Wings over non Reflex for a beginner? Also, what's the best bang for your buck for a beginner wing? Thank you

[@MitchG]

Yes, I'd recommend a beginner reflex wing for paramotoring. Shop around for a gently used beginner wing in your size

[@rupman27isback]

@@MitchG Thanks for responding. What size do you recommend for a beginner? I'm 5'9" and weigh around 208. I'm also looking into a Gravity Defiant with the Moster 185. Any sites or places in particular to shop for used reflex wing? Thanks so much.

[@MitchG]

@@rupman27isback a 31m dudek Universal would be a great wing to look for. Check the fb paramotor sale groups

[@rupman27isback]

@@MitchG Thanks!

[@wiredsmile]

Good info! Thanks for sharing.

[@vmlinuxz]

Question, how heavy is the speed bar in that Power Attack configuration? Do your legs turn to jelly after 5 minutes?

[@MitchG]

With power attack it's about 50% easier to push than normal. My legs dont get tired anymore. Remember how when you first start flying ppg, your arms are worn out after a 15min flight? Mine used to be. Now I can go for hours and my legs nor arms get tired.

[@AirbornePirates]

Epic!!

[@jasoncosner733]

I got a roadster 3 coming. Do you no if the trimmer range is more than the older roadster? Also I’m like 260 lbs alone without out motor and gear on. and i went with a 28 meter. Should I have gone with a smaller wing? I’m flying a ozone indy now 23.63 meter and it seems to fly me well. I’m just over the weight limit on it. over loaded pretty good.🙂 so anyway I’m hoping I’ll fly faster trimmed out on a Xc on my new one.and more lift free flying. Seems like I always sink out on my glider now. 🤦🏼‍♂️Let me know what you think about it 🍻🪂👊🏻🤙👍🏻

[@MitchG]

I think you will enjoy the roadster 3! 28m was the right size for your goals

[@jasoncosner733]

@@MitchG cool thanks for the feedback 🍻👍🏻

[@ogcadam9096]

Informative, thank you!

[@michaelsanders6099]

Thanks, excellent video.

[@jamesmills2041]

I thought the official drink of war was zam zam?!

[@terrysnider266]

Thanks for serving or country. What wing would you choose as a beginner the roadster or universel?

[@MitchG]

Universal gets my vote. I've flown both

[@Driftseen]

Pretty good explanation... except about the back lines , they all still carry some weight . They are not completely loose.. and not %100 of weight will be on A lines at full reflex even though from the curve of the line u might think they are completely loose but they are not ( if u think they are completely loose, next time cut them mid air at full reflex and see what happens) the better word will be there is less weight on the back lines in compare to A lines at full reflex.. but other than that this guy is very accurate on what he said.. 👍👍👍 For those guys whom still lesson to that idiot Dell I would say stay million miles away from his advices..

[@MitchG]

True. Even though the lines are bowed they are doing a job of keeping the rear of the wing in the right spot. Still have a little tension but not much compared to the A riser. Thanks for your input

[@Chiptuningtools]

MitsubishiHello ! your subscriber. I live in Russia and recently I completed a full training course paramotor. A friend of mine advises to purchase Roadster 3 , What do you say about this wing?

[@MitchG]

Ozone roadster is a good quality beginner wing. You will be happy

[@Chiptuningtools]

@@MitchG thx

[@Chiptuningtools]

@@MitchG the main thing is not to get into collapse mode