Reframing the problem of evil | N.T. Wright at UT Austin

[@ChildofGod-q7j]

Wright, Heiser and Mackie. Great teachers of scripture in true context!!!

[@virginiashroyer2279]

I love brother Wright’s answer to the question. Even if we don’t have all the answer’s doesn’t mean that God is behind evil that transpires on the earth. If we trust in God’s love I think we will conclude that just because we human’s can’t explain evil in all its form doesn’t mean there isn’t an answer that would make sense if we were told by the Divine.

[@drsatan3231]

If god is benevolent then he wants to prevent evil If he's omniscient he knew it would exist If he's all powerful he could stop it from existing Still works just fine

[@greywolf850]

We were given dominion -- and the mind of God via the word and how to live according His ways…. We are our brothers keeper so either God destroys us all for we are all evil… or we live with the consequences of our choices

[@idenhlm]

We are the solution, if we truly believe what he cross represents, pertaining to the flesh, wholeness and soundness.'

[@TLInterests]

Brilliant 👏

[@violetgypsie]

Dr Andy Woods is my preferred bible teacher as he actually explains things from the Bible in it’s context.

[@1969cmp]

Andy Woods is very good aside from OSAS. Dr Ken Johnson is also good, similar to Wood as there Origins and Eschatology is pretty much the same which is helpful....essential, it under the natural of evil, sin and then the ending of pain and suffering. I also like Amir Tsafarti.

[@ChildofGod-q7j]

@@1969cmpAmir Tsarfarti pushed the vaccine video on u tube really???

[@timothywood7275]

What a mystery it is to be born, to live and to die as a human! The way NT Wright reframes the problem of evil in the terms it was posed by his interlocutor (and many others before him) is quite human. In that reframing, he emphasizes the darkness and strangeness of the cross, which is often sanitized by many Christians from having been overly familiar with that central story of the Bible. In my opinion, it is much more realistic to think of a loving God and evil-as expressed by the cross of Jesus-as a mystery that can hardly be comprehended from a purely rationalistic perspective, and Dr. Wright appropriately shudders at stating some of these things outright to people who are experiencing pain and suffering. Is not the "problem of evil" another deep, deep cry of anguish from humans puzzling over the mystery of life?

[@downenout8705]

"A mystery that can hardly be comprehended", sort a makes a mockery of 1 Corinthians 14: 33, imo.

[@spinvalve]

I really look forward to Mel Gibson's 'The Passion of the Christ: Resurrection' which I hear will attempt to elucidate the metaphysical reality of Jesus descending into the dead to bring about the mystery of redemption

[@ChathuraImbulagoda]

Hey, do you know when this might be coming out!?

[@1969cmp]

Genesis clearly outlines why things are the way they are today.

[@markomarko1591]

I wouldn't pass the exam if i refraimed the question, would i?

[@ianhall3822]

Mark 3 verse 28 "Every sin will be forgiven". That includes the sin of being an atheist, or far worse, the sin of not believing the sermons of N.T. Wright.

[@use1kcf]

NT Wright uses more words to not answer questions than any theologian I can think of.

[@kennethdemarest2878]

Not always, but certainly sometimes ... like this time. He can be frustrating. As smart as he is, he sometimes ends up saying nothing. I get all excited at the beginning, thinking he's really going to hit it out of the park, and then I get to the end and find out he said nothing.

[@johnkrichardson]

For me, when there’s a question that God doesn’t give us a neat answer to, it actually helps to review the related things that we do know about God. Some questions sort of imply that God must be uncaring or incompetent - so it can be good to remember how we know that’s not true

[@use1kcf]

@@johnkrichardson what are the things you refer to?

[@paulallenscards]

@@johnkrichardson but this discussion is less about questions that would imply an uncaring nature, but about events that imply a creator of all things to be rigid. Like why I get to be comfortable in my own home, while 7,500 people in and around Turkey were just killed by a 7.8 magnitude earthquake. That is an event that we cannot make any good sense sense of from our perspective here on this earth. And so we can either chalk it all up to a great mystery shrouding the objective answers belonging only to a higher thing that we place our faith in, or discard that faith altogether and say that existence is absurd and nonsensical and worth only whatever we subjectively assign to our own experience of it.

[@hud_huf]

It depends on your perspective - i gathered A TON from what he said

[@JosiahFickinger]

God doesn't allow natural disasters (I'm being idiomatic) God allows people to live in places that cause such natural disasters. The key is to create a way to escape from them safely.

[@marcusrockstrom7785]

His answer to the question was 'lets reframe the clear relevant question (which we can't answer and brings our whole story crumbling down) into something else entirely deformed to allow scripture to provide a response, the core of which is essentially "something somehow happened so evil doesn't really exist anymore because Jesus magic." Religion is often the demonstration of humanity's infancy in attempting to make sense of the world and sometimes it really shows when its best answers for itself are the equivalent of things toddlers say when telling stories.

[@BloodRedLFC]

So i presume you are an atheist. So outside God or religion, how would you explain the problem of evil?

[@marcusrockstrom7785]

@@BloodRedLFC The problem of evil as posed here doesn't exist in the same context for secularism as it does for theism so your question doesn't make a lot of sense. "The problem of evil" is usually meant in the context of the existence of evil and suffering, man made or natural in cause, being more or less an insurmountable counterpoint to monotheistic declarations of there being an omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving interventionist deity. The problem being that theism can't countenance its existence in a universe supposedly made by their version of a deity. Outside of religion the problem of evil is less trying to countenance "how" evil or suffering exists as a concept and more acknowledging that it does and doing as much as possible to prevent or lessen it. If you're asking where evil and suffering come from then that's more to do with nature than anything else. Our brains are complicated and react to stimuli in different ways for people. Evil can come from natural born pure self-interest, as well as desperation, brain dysfunction, socioeconomic imbalances beyond individual control, religious indoctrination, tribalism, all sorts of places really.

[@svst3767]

@@marcusrockstrom7785what about the „problem“ of good? How come that humans seem to incorporate an intrinsic moral law and a capacity for altruism that goes beyond self-serving altruism?

[@drsatan3231]

​@@svst3767 what are the premises for "the problem of good" Never heard of that argument before

[@HighestOrderWisdom]

@@marcusrockstrom7785 It takes a conscious mind to even label something as evil/good. Naturalism/atheism has no answer for how minds evolve out of a mindless/purposeless universe.

[@reality1958]

Why does god encourage evil by rewarding satan with mankind as a playground to torment and encourage evil/sin/disobedience/suffering?

[@grantbartley483]

That's not a Christian perspective on it.

[@reality1958]

@@grantbartley483 but it’s how the bible describes it

[@grantbartley483]

@@reality1958 No, that's how you interpret it. But Satan is destined for destruction in the Bible, so your description is hardly apt. A better interpretation recognises the role of Satan (which means 'accuser') as a tester of humanity, to expose what is in our hearts, and therefore show our need for salvation. God gives the salvation when we ask for it.

[@reality1958]

@@grantbartley483 oh? So let’s go step by step. Is god in charge, omniscient and omnipotent?

[@grantbartley483]

@@reality1958 No, god is not in charge, God is in charge.

[@stevenmqcueen7576]

Didn't answer the question. Even admitted that he hadn't answer the question. Talked a lot but didn't really say anything. Disappointing.

[@JD-HatCreekCattleCo]

I think that he did answer the question. “God is Love, God created the universe out of Love, which is a let it be sort of thing, where God comes into the middle of the mess and takes the full force of it unto himself.” (Paraphrased, and he is honest enough to say that his answer is not satisfactory.) In other words, if you truly love something, you allow it to be free. Totally free. All of creation is totally free. As such, in our limited view things go terribly wrong, but God entered his Creation, in the body of Jesus the Christ, and took it upon himself. There is the message, that through the resurrection, things are made right, ultimately restored. We must trust this. God is not a magician, a Santa Claus, answering prayers like a benevolent magic show. God is God.

[@drsatan3231]

​@JD-vz5nw he didn't allow them to be free He forbid us from gaining the knowledge of good and evil, how's that freedom? He didn't make us with that knowledge so how could we know it was bad to disobey him in order to fall? A being that lacks the knowledge of good and evil does not know what is good or evil or what is best for them Without the knowledge of good and evil they can't understand warnings or consequences

[@ileanamuntean7338]

God is not Father Christmas and this life is a place of suffering.

[@GabbyKunga]

The Christian answer to the problem of evil must begin with Genesis 3 - the fall accompanied by divine curse. So, evil is not part of the original creation order. The problem now seems to be NT Wright being a non-creationist.

[@drsatan3231]

Then he is not all powerful Because his plan failed If it was his plan to allow evil to exist then he's malevolent

[@GabbyKunga]

@@drsatan3231 Is it Satan's response? :) The almighty power should not be rated on the exercise of that power, which can be dictated by His greater wisdom and provision. God didn't invent human robots that requires 100% control at all time. He chose to grant the possibility of love.

[@drsatan3231]

@@GabbyKunga his wisdom was that his plan should fail? That's pretty dumb

[@drsatan3231]

@@GabbyKunga if he can't make love without suffering then he's not all powerful lol

[@GabbyKunga]

@@drsatan3231 Not at all. His supreme power saved for His ultimate victory to be revealed in His own time, already made certain.

[@jenn98765]

His answer is a non-answer

[@jmclen7]

If we can’t talk about it, let’s talk about talking about it. 😀 Maybe the answer is simply this. God is not omnipotent in the way we think of omnipotence. Certainly there must be some self-imposed restriction on his power over the cosmos and those who live in it for free will to exist at all. But that still doesn’t quite answer why the world is dangerous. Why do humans need danger to thrive? If God can create a heaven or a spiritual utopia for all people to live at peace for all eternity, why do we need this chaotic world at all? Or if, as you’ve said, the second coming is a merger of God’s realm with ours, why the separation in the first place? What’s it all about? And if this separation was the result of eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, why plant that seed in the garden at all? It’s already corrupted the realm. It clearly exists so that sin might exist. On some level, free will means very little without high stakes and without real temptation. Maybe the greatest act of love is for God to put mankind in a cruel and dangerous world so that we would be compelled to rebel against him so that our freedom of choice would really be that. Well that’s my current stab at it. What I think we can say is that human beings, as we are in this life, are incompatible with anything resembling a utopia though it should be our project to strive for as close as we can get imo. Without evil, we couldn’t make it in this world. I think this question really points back to the nature of human beings rather than the nature of God. 🤷‍♂️

[@hermanhandbrush4402]

In other words, N.T. Wright just doesn't have the answer. So he rejects the question itself on some specious basis. It would be more honest if he said, "I don't know." Christ on the cross didn't know ("my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?") so it's no fault of our own if we don't know either. But at least admit that.

[@tonymercer7759]

The Bible records that God created a powerful, intelligent, and beautiful angelic being, the chief among the angels, called Lucifer ( ‘Shining One’) - and that he was very good. But Lucifer also had a will with which he could freely choose.\ He chose to aspire to be like God - Isaiah 14.12-14 "' How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the North. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.”

[@grantbartley483]

God allows evil because without knowing evil we couldn't be like God. Perhaps.

[@reanetsemoleleki8219]

That's pretty much the answer that makes the most sense to me, as simple as it is. There's no point in free will if God intervenes everytime we go our own way.

[@alexmala6483]

First of all, God does not owe us any answers whatsoever regarding *why* things happen. He is God, The Absolute Ruler. We are His wretched creatures, who make a mess of everything we touch, and misuse the knowledge He allows us. Just look at how instead of using for good the scientific knowledge He allows us, we are using it for destruction and evil. Our disobedience, and knowledge in the wrong hands by the way, is the source of most, if not all the evil we see around us. Second of all, even if He told us *why* things happen, we still wouldn't understand. Our minds are too small and limited to understand God's Grand Design and His infinite wisdom. All we need to know is that He knows best, that we need to trust Him and His plans, and that His plans will ultimately be fulfilled. Hallelujah!

[@stevenmqcueen7576]

Like Wright, you are reformulating the question in order to avoid answering it. The question is not why God allows bad things to happen but why a supposedly loving God allows those things. True, the Creator does not have to answer to His creation but, once He declares His love for His creation, it is not unreasonable to ask for an explanation when we are the innocent victims of evil.

[@alexmala6483]

@@stevenmqcueen7576 1. Nobody is innocent. We are all sinners. 2. Read again the last sentence in the first paragraph of my original post. 3. God created us with free will. He did not create robots that are only doing what their programming allows them. Thus, we have full control over our actions, and God does not stop us from doing evil, because He works His plans regardless. And on judgment day we will all be judged fairly, because what we did, we did freely, and willingly, just as our hearts desired.

[@stevenmqcueen7576]

@@alexmala6483 You are still avoiding the issue -- actually two issues. The first is why God allows bad things to happen that do not arise from human choice, such as earthquakes, hurricanes and volcanoes, i.e., so-called acts of God. The second is how God can be called loving when he allows the death of innocents, such children dying from cancer. So please explain how a loving God allows people's lives to be destroyed despite their not having committed a sin but simply because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or are you saying that every victim of a crime, disease or natural catastrophe -- including children -- deserved what he got?

[@alexmala6483]

@@stevenmqcueen7576 PS here are a few things that relate to the last part of my last comment (~4 min). kzbin.info/www/bejne/rWXFpaiOYqh4oKc

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

@@stevenmqcueen7576 That's where you're wrong. God uses what we call "natural disasters" to make ppl re-evaluate how they are living. And as far as innocent ppl being allowed to die goes, those ppl will be resurrected at a time where they will get to know God and won't have to worry about cancer. Is God wrong for allowing them to die now so they can have significantly better future? Ofc not.

[@downenout8705]

"Problem of evil", what problem of evil? The Christian God is demonstrably evil, so where's the problem?

[@islandonlinenews]

I have a short answer. God allows evil as a temporary learning tool.

[@use1kcf]

Why not just educate us directly without the pain of evil if he is perfect?

[@islandonlinenews]

@@use1kcf that's the perfect way to do it.

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

@@use1kcf Lucifer, Adam, and Eve were all directly educated by the Creator, and all 3 of them rejected that education. The ancient Israelites heard Him speak the 10 Commandments with His voice, and just 40 days later most of them broke the first one. Godly character cannot be acquired through direct education from God. The created being must choose to accept God's rule and live by that education.

[@use1kcf]

@@theeternalsbeliever1779 yet none do.

[@reality1958]

@@theeternalsbeliever1779 and who designed all of it. Christians act as if god isn’t at all responsible for its own design

[@robertlight5227]

Wright doesn't really answer the question.

[@roenblanke9530]

A profoundly disappointing answer.

[@1969cmp]

He claims we are not told why things are the way they are. Yet, it's pretty clear in Genesis as a consequence of the fall of Adam. But, if Adam is viewed as merely an allegory then the result are people like Mr Wright - word salad.

[@roenblanke9530]

@@1969cmp The obvious reply then is to say, "If Evil came into the world through Adam, then who created Adam?"

[@1969cmp]

@@roenblanke9530 God created Adam. But at that point in time, there was no evil.

[@roenblanke9530]

@@1969cmp But the point remains: the way you lay it out means that God created the source of evil

[@peterbarker8249]

..you mean GOD existence ......😠😡👉, ..so then there can be no , GOD'S..

[@peterbarker8249]

..well once a god ..🤪

[@rudysimoens570]

The only excuse that "god" has for all the evel and suffering in the world is that "he" does not exist!!!

[@incrediblystupid8483]

nonsense! He answered nothing in 1000 words.