Dagon: The "Philistine Fish-God" That Everyone Gets Wrong

[@ReligionForBreakfast]

Watch my Nebula video on the Temple of Ramesses III here!: nebula.tv/videos/religionforbreakfast-sacred-spaces-inside-the-temple-of-ramesses-iii?ref=religionforbreakfast Get Nebula using my link for 40% off an annual subscription: go.nebula.tv/religionforbreakfast

[@ekmalsukarno2302]

Hi there, ReligionForBreakfast, can you please make a video on Balinese Hinduism and how it's different from Hinduism in India. Thank you very much.

[@two_tier_gary_rumain]

I'm surprised you left out the Biblical story of Jonah, whom God sent to Ninnevah and he appeared to them in the form of Dagon.

[@ikebeckman1074]

Not only is he misrepresented in scholarly texts, I’m pretty sure the fish-people in _The Shadow Over Innsmouth_ worship a primordial deity named Dagon!

[@Fr.O.G.]

There's a good reason for that: Besides racism, there was nothing Lovecraft loved more than blandly copying and pasting from the encyclopedia.

[@TheSlasherJunkie]

There’s a prose poem called Dagon that essentially tells the last story in Call of Cthulhu, where the narrator claims to be reminded “of the Philistine god Dagon”

[@fort809]

@@Fr.O.G.don’t forget multi-page descriptions of walking down a street or getting on a bus

[@misanthrophex]

@@Fr.O.G. people keep talking about his supposed racism, but never really post sources

[@jackalhead7433]

Imagine if future fiction writers misrepresent Jesus Christ as an evil primordial fish god

[@npc6254]

His razor is pretty neat but I had to draw the line when he invaded Tamriel.

[@mis_l5858]

Same for Baal. He gives sweet vampiric powers, but he’s also a serial rapist.

[@kayz.o1054]

I'm glad Sean Bean was there to stop him

[@SenChalcolithic]

Well if the Dragonborn emperors hadn’t let the dragon fires go out, he couldn’t have. Totally an invitation by letting them go out.

[@JaelaOrdo]

Mehrunes Dagon < Dagoth Ur

[@ChancePhilbin]

Best weapon in the game

[@CaptPostmod]

Today I learned that HP Lovecraft didn't just make up Dagon whole cloth.

[@BlankPageEmperor1334]

Yes and no. He used the pop culture understanding of the Philistine god, discussed in this video, as a euphemism and some inspiration for his own creation i.e. an actual fish-man deity from pre-human times.

[@YeenMage]

In Astronomy, the planet orbiting the star Fomalhaut is called "Dagon" because its parent star is located at the mouth of the constellation of the Southern Fish (Piscis Austrinus)

[@azurechen123]

For some odd reason i read this as "the philippine's fish god"

[@stevenandrewchua542]

PHILIPPINES MENTIONED 💪💪💪💪💪

[@Kais4sight]

The two words are similar

[@ericpode6095]

I did exactly the same!

[@Volundur9567]

All hail bangus

[@Chinatown18]

I can’t believe you just single-handedly got me to sign up for Nebula

[@amandaburnham8626]

I'm thinking about signing up now more than ever before! That series alone sounds interesting enough for me to want weekly installments!

[@BrandanLee]

That Rare Earth episode on this Nebula commercial was made by Evan after I suggested it in the comments. He's also doing a Lebanon series with a lot of interesting crossovers with Religion For Breakfast content on the region. Strongly recommend.

[@johnniallen502]

i love the speed dr. henry speaks at, slow enough to be understood but just fast enough that i can't split my attention and i have to listen closely. feels like being in my religious studies classes in school, but in a good way

[@skjaldulfr]

I've seen Conan the Destroyer, and I've played The Elder Scrolls IV, so I think I have a pretty good idea of what Dagon is.

[@jessclark9725]

Your timing never fails: was just diving into the Ugaritic Baal Cycle, where Dagon holds a minor but unique roll

[@MerryStoorlibrary]

Finally some legit content about Dagon . Thank you for your work sincerely

[@veraxiana9993]

Finally the Daedric Religious analysis I've been looking for 🙏

[@veraxiana9993]

For those confused, it's an elder scrolls joke lol. Mehrunes Dagon is one of the Daedric Princes.

[@EnkiduIX]

I was going to admonish the host for not mentioning Lyg even once 😡 lol

[@project.anubis]

​@@veraxiana9993Molag Bal either, and a lot of other names in the Elder Scrolls franchise... Obvious for a society called... Bethesda ! 😅

[@hedgehog3180]

That's way better than my joke, I thought of Dagoth-Ur instead because I somehow forgot about Mehrunes Dagon.

[@hedgehog3180]

Anyways we definitely need more scholars of Daedric cults.

[@dersitzpinkler2027]

The last time I was this early, YHVH still belonged to a pantheon

[@I-am-Hrut]

still does last time I checked.

[@aaronsirkman8375]

@@I-am-Hrut Con quien?

[@enchantedbananas]

🔫 always has been.

[@guaporeturns9472]

@@aaronsirkman8375Will Farrell

[@Drak_Thedp]

​@@aaronsirkman8375 There are "angels" and "archangels", which have superhuman power and non-human origins so they equate to lesser gods especially personally named archs like Michael etc., there is the devil/satan/lucifer/whatever, that is actually elevated over angels in his position to rival Yhwh, there are "chosen", which would equate to demigods in other religions. The fact that christianity prefers to separate supernatural beings by "layers" and makes you only worship the creator god doesn't make it suddenly monotheistic. And you can actually follow this motiff in the works of gnostics that create a whole pantheon of christian heavens and spirits.

[@drhall343]

-Dagon it! -Please don't take Dagon's name in vain. 🥺

[@IXXILordFibonacciIXXI]

Baal Zebul was one of the gods of Philistines. A mockery of the name is Bael Zebub. Bael Zebub means Lord of the Flies. Baal Zebul means Lord of the Heavens.

[@kanadakid147]

...wait... how did I not figure out beelzebub is the same as baal?! Good lord I'm dense. Baal Zebul... not the caninite God. My lord pay attention to context.

[@IXXILordFibonacciIXXI]

@kanadakid147 I dont think youre dense but you are welcome. Baal means Lord.

[@paulodelima5705]

Baal is a canaanite god.

[@Dave01Rhodes]

There were several Baals. Baal Hadad is the one generally referred to as Baal. Zebul is probably a distinct deity. But maybe not. There’s a lot we don’t know about ancient religions.

[@imppro]

pretty sure beelzebul means lord of princes not lord of heaven

[@ianchristian7949]

“We all know what happened to Mr Hong when he opened the Three Jolly Luck Take-Away Fish Bar on the site of the old fish-god temple in Dagon Street on the night of the full moon, don’t we…?” - Jingo, Terry Pratchett

[@pattheplanter]

GNU Terry Pratchett

[@foundingfarther]

Morporkian witnesses are not to be trusted, especially if there's a tourist amongst them!

[@NoOne-gc5ot]

This is completely unrelated but I really like Dr. Henry’s jacket here. I need a new jacket.

[@michaelniederer2831]

Evidence-based analysis always beats just-so stories; caveats, gaps and all. Thanks again.

[@Alverant]

That story from the beginning sounds more like a person sneaked into the temple and pushed the statue.

[@dianadeejarvis7074]

If temple security was that bad, the basic point of superiority was still made.

[@thenutella8846]

There's also a possibility that it didn't happen at all.

[@TurtleMarcus]

The story of Bel and the Dragon (Daniel 14, not in the Hebrew Bible but included in the Greek Bible) makes a similar point. In the story, the people offer food to an idol, and every morning, they see that the food has been eaten (by the idol), even when the temple door had been sealed. Daniel spreads ashes on the floor one night, and in the morning, people see footprints in the ashes. It turns out that the priests had used a secret door to enter the temple at night and eat the food. Many Christian legends contain similar stories (undoubtedly based on this Daniel story), whereupon the reveal, all the people instantly convert to Christianity (I recall one particular story where a wooden idol was full of rats, and they ate the offerings every night). So it is interesting to see this much older Biblical story having the same trope, but in an opposite way.

[@Bubblegob]

The tricky part is that the imagery surrounding Dagon you show througout the video really emulates ancient art style even down to that little basket, the kind of art you'd assume had shown up first in some archeological research.

[@PrincessOzaline]

The artists knew what ancient Near Eastern art looked like when they decided to imagine their version.

[@KawaiiJagaimoQT]

breakfast for religion

[@digital_matt]

Barfing freakier loots

[@pinkphilmingo6032]

Pancakes I beseech you to deliver us from evil!!!

[@cyberspore00]

@@pinkphilmingo6032The pancake is a symbol for the flat Earth.

[@curtisalter5902]

a character named Dagon is featured in the anime Jujutsu Kaisen, definitely follows the fish-man theme!

[@amelialonelyfart8848]

This comment section is really making me realize how widespread Dagon is in pop-culture. I knew his HP Lovecraft appearances, vaguely aware of how Dagon as a name is used in Elder Scrolls, and finding so many other references. Kind of neat.

[@alecity4877]

​@@amelialonelyfart8848there's also a Dagon in Ben 10

[@Jopeth23]

Dagon is also the name of an item in Dota 2, or as I like to call it "The Noob Zapper". 😂

[@LimeyLassen]

@@amelialonelyfart8848 The idea of an ancient pagan fish god is just fun. It doesn't surprise me it caught on.

[@davenewton4862]

Until a few years ago I thought Dagon was something H.P.Lovecraft made up, like Cthulhu (one of his first short stories was about Dagon).

[@Dinosaurs_R_cool]

It be fantastic if R4B did a bookshelf tour.

[@TurtleMarcus]

Etymologies of Late Antiquity are always a blast. The name "Mary" (Maryam) was theorized to have come from Hebrew "mar" (drop) + "yam" (sea), i.e. "drop of the sea". In Latin, this was "stilla maris". But at some point, this became "stella maris" (star of the sea), which remains an important title of Mary, mother of Jesus. In other words: a theologically significant title for Mary is based upon a misreading of a wrong etymology.

[@TheMichaelmorad]

bruh dag means fish in Hebrew. but the philistines probably did not speak Hebrew

[@thenutella8846]

The Philistines after settling in Philistia and Hebrews most definitely spoke similar languages considering both were daughter languages of Canaanite. Archeologists and historians are in agreement that when the philistines settled in coastal Canaan, they intermixed and assimilated into the native population while leaving behind their name for the people. Whatever language they spoke before, be it a Greek or pre-Greek language from the Aegean, was lost. That said, I do believe his translation as a fish god is lacking enough evidence and is a case of folk etymology. I also believe that there's a big possibility that the philistines didn't actually worship him in any major way and the Iron-age Jews just appropriated several foreign gods from Mesopotamia into their stories, like they did with Lilith.

[@ConcerninglyWiseAlligator]

We are talking about very biased and unreliable narrators. They simply could have disregarded his original name and called him fish man in Hebrew. Not that it holds any water, the bible isn't reliable.

[@mmyr8ado.360]

​@@ConcerninglyWiseAlligator Biblical archeology says otherwise for that last statement

[@ConcerninglyWiseAlligator]

@@mmyr8ado.360 not always, that's precisely why we can't take it at face value. Especially when discussing non Hebrew deities, because the bible often misrepresents them. I just pointed out that the bible alone can't be used to argue for or against Dagon being a fish-man god.

[@mmyr8ado.360]

@@ConcerninglyWiseAlligator We could say the same for Herodotus and his mention of Scythians wearing human hide on their armor, but recent archelogical finds prove him true regrading that point. It doesn't mean his works are 100 true.

[@daniel.santos]

His son was the Kaiju Gojira. The King of the Monsters. Obviously.

[@avielp]

3:27 cool goddess figurine :0

[@DreamersDisease88]

To understand Dagon you must first summon him and read him HP Lovecraft

[@MrLeemurman]

Love to learn the truth behind Near East Ancient religions, thank you

I'm here as huge fan of lovecraft who pictured Dagon as some sort of sea monster

[@creatorsremose]

I must say that having Egon Spengler talk about ancient gods does have a calming nostalgic effect on me.

[@Liberater4589]

This is just anti deep ones propaganda

[@mahatmarandy5977]

If Samuel was written in the 6th century, that would place it during the Babylonian captivity, yes? And if so, might the authors have been projecting a babylonian god they found offensive back in time to function as an adversary in the story? Sort of a “done worry, The Lord humiliated this thing once before.”

[@arturhashmi6281]

This is a very good point

[@mahatmarandy5977]

@ thanks!

[@Loehengrin]

The Israelites had form in satirising the names of their enemies. Baal Zebub and Antiochus Epimenes being obvious examples. 'Dagon' probably did mean Sad Fish, but Dagon was probably not the name that the Ashdodites called him.

[@IntelVoid]

I imagine if the post-exile Hebrews were adapting an old story about the ark and the Philistines, and the name of the Philistine god involved was lost to memory, they would have picked some other name that people would have heard before. 'Foreign god, but not Baal this time' is the important bit.

[@Fr.O.G.]

Synchronicity: I was studying up on Dagon last night.

[@mb7626]

Same, was literally what made me decide to watch this video now

[@mb7626]

Literally same

[@sylph8005]

Mine is the game master of the Vampire: The Masquerade LARP I’m in put Dagon, Astarte, and Ba’al into the end of our long chronicle despite there being nearly no precedence for that

[@Kais4sight]

Synchronicity is an interesting topic

[@keip4568]

The Starbucks Mermaid is crying 🧜‍♀️ 😢

[@project.anubis]

Her roots are very intriguing tho, I'd love to see him talk about it. To my knowledge she is inspired by the patron deity of the Scythes, but her origins are very mysterious... There's an interesting article on Wikipedia called "the snake legged goddess".

[@NevisYsbryd]

Technically, the Starbucks symbol is a siren.

[@project.anubis]

Fantastic video, Andrew ! 👏🏼🔥✨ I will love to watch you debunk "Atargatis the first mermaid" misconception !

[@ConcerninglyWiseAlligator]

DND depicts Dagon as a fish demon lord who rules a lightless, cold sea; filled with huge marine demons, monstrous fish and fish-people hybrids. He hates all terrestrial creatures and attempts to turn them all back into their original aquatic form. Other than that, he is by far the wisest of all demons and possibly the oldest.

[@AloisWeimar]

Tell that to the Esoteric Order in Innsmouth

[@BlankPageEmperor1334]

Oh, they know. 😉

[@traildoggy]

Do fish have any half human gods?

[@jeremygreen2883]

Merman and Barnicle Boy.

[@Alacondor]

I have nebula but I watch you on KZbin just to see what courses and other stuff you have going on! I'm gonna watch ur new show now!

[@boltedfrey]

Why do you refuse to let the two volumes of The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha sit next to each other? It hurts my heart 💔

[@JimmyMatis-h9y]

There's plenty of current propaganda dehumanizing peoples the ruling classes don't like. Why add the bronze age statecraft abominations to your 💔?

[@miedo0908]

0:47 but who is this guy wearing a tie for breakfast? Looking good btw

[@lipingrahman6648]

We must remember that most of the Old Testament was finally written down only just before, during, and after the Babylonian captivity. The priests probably didn’t have a good idea of what was the actual situation in the time periods that the myths were set in.

[@TurtleMarcus]

Not only did they not know the past that well, but they often incorporated contemporary issues (whether intentionally or unintentionally) into their stories.

[@AGeekTragedy]

The art of the merman with the sumerian-looking beard does look sick af tho

[@thedeesus4249]

Please keep it up. I love what you do here.

[@poetics231]

Thank you for this! It’s really helpful for a creative project I’m working on!!!

[@Ganondorfdude11]

Dagonnit!

[@yoofij4724]

Wait so who was the Philistine high god?

[@TheAIKnowledgeHub]

So based on what you said about where the fish god started. The story of the statue likely never happened.

[@shadowdragon3521]

Just like most things attributed to YHVH in the bible.

[@hedgehog3180]

I mean why would you think a story that's so obviously just “my god is better than your god” happened in the first place? It's like the most easy to detect propaganda ever.

[@TheAIKnowledgeHub]

@hedgehog3180 well I was thinking it was vandalism and I never thought too hard about the story. But based on this. It couldn't have happened to start with.

[@SaltyCrabOfficial]

@@TheAIKnowledgeHub most of the bible demons are just gods of the surrounding cultures, they really really hated the other cultures and here we are now

[@mindtruthwordlife505]

Would love to get your take on Oannes next

[@AnthonyArena-g7l]

Thank you for making this video. I have often wondered about this. I appreciate learning the true story, finally.

[@hive_indicator318]

Iron Age II: more ironer, more ager

[@x999uuu1]

Iron Age II: Metallurgy Boogaloo

[@canaanval]

I like the suit and tie!🕴🏻

[@nunyanunya4147]

NO WAY! next you are going to tell me that jesus ISNT blonde with blue eyes.... BLOWING MY MIND!

[@OsirisLord]

The Hebrew god is powerful enough to knock over a statue if his magic box is next to it. Got it.

[@SleepyPotterFan]

Who would have guessed that “cultural memory of the monotheists” wouldn’t be a solid way to determine history of the larger polytheist world.

[@TeutonicEmperor1198]

I thought Dagon was a magic scepter that deals up to 800 magical damage to a selected target!

[@georgem7502]

Can you still put it on the Courier for the 6th party member? 🤔

[@AP-ds9pj]

A reminder to take what a group says about another group they dislike with a handful of salt! When a group dislikes another one you can’t really take everything they say about them at face value or as facts…

[@Sothas]

The association with Dagon and El makes the Hebrew hatred of Dagon make so much sense

[@PhantomFiend]

But, but, but the Lovecraftian version sounded so cool! Don’t you want your normal fish-god to be an eldritch and godly abomination from the stars?! 😮

[@LuisAldamiz]

So the Hebrews, the Canaanites and the Philistines all worshiped El. Howe were they any different?

[@olidot7237]

Just curious, is there a particular translation of the Bible that you prefer to use in these types of videos or is it more of a general overlook from multiple translations?

[@mathieuleader8601]

Dagon as kippers for breakfast is some good vittles' for food of the gods

[@ferretyluv]

It’s actually spelled victuals. Yes, it’s stupid and illogical.

[@hive_indicator318]

​@@ferretyluvit's also spelled vittles, because phonetic spelling is what people prefer

[@daniel.santos]

I haven’t been interested in all these Nebula ads until now, because we get to see all the Andrew Mark Henry footage of archeological sites!

[@danguillou713]

But, but … Lovecraft?

[@graciegj63]

He had to get his ideas from somewhere. 🤷‍♀️

[@gilbertoignacioaguirrevarg4550]

thanks a lot Howie!

[@Pipemurillo12]

Exactly what I needed

[@freethinker424]

I’m bewildered that so many people who have read the bible don’t realize there’s a lot of mythology in it.

[@ferretyluv]

Christians have a bias for the New Testament.

[@partqfavor]

i think it's bc ppl assume mythology is smth separate from and incompatible with religious practices/history

[@SaltyCrabOfficial]

if people realize that the book they believe is true has the clearly mythical and non existent gods of other cultures that would mean that their own God is just as fake as the others, and that isn't that good

[@GospelUnlocked]

Thank you RFB!

[@BlackReaper0]

Super interesting!

[@mapuiaize]

I was just strolling through the east of Morthal minding my own business when some Dagon priest tried to stop me with some daedra. These people are crazy! May the Nine Divines guide who pass through that mountains❤🙏

[@senortren]

Great outfit, it really suits you

[@Daniel-jk7pe]

Top 5 greatest dieties: Dagon, Dagon, Dagon, Dagon, and Dagon

[@guaporeturns9472]

Cthulhu is number 1

[@chill_notion]

You got it all wrong, Dagon is the daedra responsible for the Oblivion Crisis. Do your research sheeple!

[@AzureSkyCiel]

Interesting, I admit, I had thought a lot of the fish association actually came about later by HP Lovecraft.

[@graciegj63]

Where do you think Lovecraft got his ideas from? 😏

[@TurtleMarcus]

And we cannot ignore the role of "Dagon the fish-god" in modern Anti-Catholicism. The fish-cloaked figure like the Pope wearing a chasuble and mitre, if you squint.

[@Thehighpriestess108]

I love your content. I would love for you to cover the goddesses of the Bible.

[@gonzo7071]

Every time I think of merman or mermen, I think of that commercial scene from Zoolander.

[@indigo9997]

Does anyone have any good introductory books on religious studies?

[@artofmars7275]

“Fisherman” could be so misunderstood..

[@hurdygurdyman1905]

I don't even know that you can say the Bible is painting him as "the chief deity of the Philistines."

[@ecurewitz]

Very interesting. Thank you

[@jojanv]

Ever been to Malta and the temples there?

[@isaacmarshmallow8751]

What of the temples at Tell Es-Safi near Gath and Tell Qasile with their corroborating architectural design of the two supporting pillars within arms reach? 🤔 That is a detail which speaks of firsthand knowledge of Philistine temple construction

[@rachel_sj]

Bummer, I was hoping that Dagon would be a spectacularly, really, really good looking MerMAN God 😅

[@SOOKIE42069]

The Phillistines aren't only an ancient people. They're still there! Filistin is, in fact, the Palestinian endonym for themselves. People don't seem to realize that over the course of 3000+ years the cultures and religions of a region can change radically many times without the bulk of the population moving around that much. These things are swept in and out in the wake of conquerors and great economic shakeups.

[@zacharyhenderson2902]

Is it possible that the biblical authors were using the name Dagan to describe an equivalent ancient Greek deity whose name they didn't know at the time?

[@seanwelch71]

Isn't the Dagon shade just later age scapegoating?

[@Emymagdalena]

Bro… how did you know I was digging into ANE religion right now?

[@Dwimordene777]

Not as interesting (for me) as Melchizedek or Akhenaten videos, but I'll watch and give thumbs up for algorithm to support the channel :)

[@AperyGra]

I Wonder If Lovecraft misinterpreted him.

[@jakeaurod]

Some of that iconography looks like Ea from Sumer.

[@fundog4478]

Just had fish for breakfast

[@jesperandersson889]

Dagon seems all but fishy, nice footage

[@gpjennett9819]

Could Dagon be cognate with Dagda and have an Indo-European language root?

[@poepflater]

Interesting note, this Dagon dude was big in the time of Job... likely why a fish was chosen for the story. Early Israelites also ate pork

[@nottwo]

Godwyn the Golden?

[@miketacos9034]

2:56 Historians: idk my bff ptgyh lol