"Renaissance Periodization" Has Jumped the Shark (ft.

[@AlexanderBromley]

BaseStrengthAI is more reliable than a coach, cheaper than an Excel template!👇👇👇 www.BaseStrength.com/the-app Bromley Merch from Barbell Apparel only available HERE! 👇👇👇 barbellapparel.com/Bromley

[@JNMeiun]

Cool, I understand now. You're telling people to do things that hurt themselves and bitching about tryhards and nerds because you want to direct more people to your funnel instead. Nice dude, really helping people out there by like pfft just injure your back 15 times or whatever.

[@LordofFaet]

People seem to forget that Mike already addresses all this on his videos. He’s said many times that for a newbie worrying about the precise details is almost pointless. He’s said multiple times that ‘perfect form’ doesn’t exist and even if it did it would be different for everyone. He also is quite clear about how whenever he does get into the precise details that it’s for competitors and nerds. Even his app he’s transparent about it being for people who already know how to plan out a workout cycle and that it’s just meant to make things easier. People need to learn how to acknowledge context rather than complaining that his words aren’t universally applicable.

[@christenbarton4114]

Yeah, but these videos wouldn't generate clicks if they acknowledged this. Almost every criticism on these videos Mike has already addressed. Cherry picking to create content.

[@andrewmontgomery1763]

Yup honestly. I enjoy Bromley’s content, but this seems mostly for views, as Dr. Mike has addressed all the concerns mentioned.

[@StraitjacketFitness]

This.

[@ronstewart5945]

This was my first thought. Similar to the outcry over his criticism of Mentzer. In other videos, he points out the benefits for particular populations of lifters.

[@weirdo3116]

Yeah. Like I'm pretty sure I've heard Mike say all this stuff that Alex and GVS have said here.

[@yakovdavidovich7943]

I watched the whole video, and between the 100 jump cuts, and meandering analysis, I actually can't tell who agrees with whom, or where RP supposedly jumped the shark. This video is very confusing.

[@cudaconv70]

Clickbait as usual

[@patrickl5290]

Essentially he’s saying israetel is kinda talking out of his ass on plenty of his vids (front squats are for example) by evaluating exercises sort of myopicly through the RP doctrine. He also claims that his recommendations of excessive focus on technique and fatigue management is only for advanced lifters even thought it’s pretty likely that most of his audience is beginners. From personal experience, the only people I know that follow him are relatively new. I think he makes good stuff and is funny, but his black and white attitude about certain topics is not very respectable. Imagine saying front squats suck for hypertrophy relative to multiple isolations, and ignoring how different enhanced balance natty training is

[@owy3215]

@@patrickl5290front squats are ass for hypertrophy, just do back squats or ssb or smthn

[@MrBecza]

@@patrickl5290 You are mainly right, but trick is to pick usefull part and improve rest according to your experience. Good technique is great advice, high stretch is good advice, combine fat loss with maintenance phases is great advice... etc etc. if you feel front squat great, do front squats, no problem at all ...

[@Gilbertmk2]

​@@MrBeczaHere's the thing though, RP says this too. If you have an excercise you like, feels great, gets the results you want....then do it.

[@0Medic0]

Disabled wheel chair user here. Been watching Dr Mike since Jan. I thought I'd chime in and say that I 100% have had huge results with the information provided by Mike but not everything should always be taken verbatim. You are unique so are your genes, you need to look at any advice provided by anyone and see if and how it can be applied to you. I have personally found technique and range of motion has been super helpful for my self as I have very limited mobility and this way of training has actually made me more flexible. Its important to remember Mikes info is really much more tutored towards those who already are into this sport or life style. I am not the target demographic but I have been able to extrapolate information that has been life changing for someone in my situation. Its always hard to filter and sieve through all the non sense stuff in the health industry, but like I said above the biggest take away is you need to find the advice that suits you and how your body and mind like to train. Big props to the video Alex! Hope its ok to call you Alex ;) I deeply appreciate you taking the time to look at this and having a pretty good take all round. GG WP my man. Much love from Scotland - T

[@zenboy2000]

I've been watching RP for about a year. And throwing in myo reps, full rom, and training the same body part more then once a week has made a big difference for me as well. Their extra tools in tool set.

[@horatiobiggins]

Nobody takes fun into account. Im not going to compete in Mr. Olympia ever so gooning out a few cheat rep partials at the end of a Tricep pressdown might not be optimal but I like it.

[@SSSauceyBuns]

This exactly. Optimal this, optimal that, who cares if its not fun? Marathoners are weird and think running is fun, gymbros hate running and think lifting weights is fun.

[@Steve-dv4hy]

That's a really good point. Strict barbell rows are well and good. But heavy ass cheat rows are primordial.

[@DCJayhawk57]

​​@@Steve-dv4hy Strict barbell rows are nearly worthless unless you're untrained. The strength curve is awful, so top end biased, so without a little body English it's tough to use enough weight to actually stimulate your traps and lats. Nobody does bent rows to bring up rear delts, teres major, infraspinatus, etc. There are much better alternatives to build the smaller muscles with a targeted approach. Barbell rows are to trash the big muscles, not round out your physique and add detail. This is one of the biggest things I disagree with Mike on. He does a lot of wonky back exercises, and his bent row technique with the pause at the top is endlessly stupid (and has now been disputed within the evidence based community with lengthed partials). Don't get me started on flexion rows...

[@Steve-dv4hy]

​@@DCJayhawk57Preach. Preach the gospel of heavy sloppy rows.

[@wileymanful]

This is insanely real man. I feel like this is a good example of just being reasonable- like yeah, use good form and whatnot. But also let yourself try to juice out as much as you can out of your set and be intense. The extremes shit is just not fun

[@bigpicturegains]

I said similar on the GVS video and I’ll say again here. It’s not the strict technical form that should be the target of criticism, it’s the people using the strict form who don’t apply truly hard effort to that form. I would too go as far as to say this is a skill you must train. Being able to combine truly hard training with big focus on technique is definitely not easy, but doing so has unlocked a lot of gains for me personally.

[@quentonnankivell956]

Same

[@ayda2876]

Dorian Yates had the best approach VERY GOOD TECHNIQUE and very high effort

[@dangerdoof]

There we, go that's it.

[@bobnewkirk7003]

I smell a Bromley bodybuilding arc brewing. Time to give Allan Thrall a run for his dad-bod energy.

[@AlexanderBromley]

Ahaha yes!! I'm already down 15lbs. I keep telling my wife I'm getting "baldomniman" shredded... she doesn't believe me....

[@leonardo9259]

​@@AlexanderBromleyyou prove her wrong man, I basically couldn't differentiate you both in the rows video

[@EASYtheDUTCH]

@@AlexanderBromley Baldbromliman

[@joshsargeant]

Would love to see you compete!

[@jugheadsrule]

@@AlexanderBromley You look closer to Blaha than BOM

[@alexg.2430]

Part of this is a misunderstanding over injury risk. Dehydrated bodybuilders on copious amounts of gear probably are the population most advantaged by artificially accelerating their fatigue using lighter weight, intentionally bad leverage, and super strict form. Beginners and intermediates can adhere to the general principles - hit the target muscle, control the eccentric, full ROM - and a decent amount of “cheating” won’t decrease the effect or increase injury risk. That being said, RP has a ton of free info on their site and has, more than anyone, introduced much needed empiricism to the wider exercise community. This is kind of fake drama where everyone sort of agrees on the wider points but is trying to find a reason to disagree, potentially in an attempt to draw some views on the backs of RP’s audience.

[@zarante5640]

yeah, I posted a similar comment on GVS’ video where I think sometimes Mike is passing techniques very specific to on-season, on gear bodybuilders that just dont apply if it makes you row 95lbs at rpe 6. I also think GVS’ weird moralizing take at the end of the video overshadows the beginning which is a productive and important critique. Then it devolves on an attack on Israetel’s and RPs character over the… control of fitness youtube I suppose? Or maybe making more money than it should? I dont know. This whole thing reminds me of the powerbuilding debate where NH originally made some good points but then got so heated that it devolved into personal attacks again

[@SeuOu]

Except cheating does decrease the effect...to whatever degree you 'cheated,' you get that much less stimulus to the muscle for that rep. 🤔

[@Marvellous.Misfit]

I couldn't have written it any better. 👏🏽

[@DCJayhawk57]

I don't think it's all just guys on gear, but those who come from a performance background into bodybuilding. A lot of people get really strong without great technique just by progressing the weight on the bar. Using a stricter technique can be a huge plateau buster and a way to keep progression going as you become more advanced. The advice does apply to naturals. I think a lot of what Mike puts out is superb, but he's becoming a caricature of he continually promotes the uber strict exaggerated ROM technique with DYELs on his socials. Mike and Jared don't train like that, so it's disingenuous at best. One thing I've always disagreed with Mike on is how to train the back. He is always having people do those worthless flexion rows with baby weight, and he's overly strict on other back training movements even if he emphasizes the stretch with high tension. I think his bias with gear users really plays into his ultra strict teachings here.

[@jon-kd5st]

Pretty sure it's not drama or GVS trying draw RP audience.

[@AngryOscillator]

Mike says quite often that the basics work just fine. It was a RP video that led me to STOP with all the fancy stupid tech stuff, scale back the amount of sets, and just do basic stuff well. I've gained more in 2 years than I did in the 6 prior. I'm not a bodybuilder or a pro athlete fyi. Mike shows us the optimal, but how often is life optimal and how many of us are working fitness/physique pros? You take the principles and apply them as you can to get as close to optimal as possible. I skate for example and spend a lot of time on my feet in my day job. This makes leg training.... tricky. But if you follow the SFR and MRV principles then its not THAT hard to work out what to do about it. The reason for the full rom in things like rows is to allow standardization so its easier to track performance and progression so you dont sandbag yourself. If you can accurately work in a lengthened partial ROM then he'd most likely say that is optimal (in terms of SFR) now as the new science comes out. IF you can standardize the movement.

[@ChrisPBacon9]

Yep like when he critiques celebrity's workouts you'll hear him say stuff like "hmmm he could afford to go a little slower on the eccentric but overall very good" its not like he believes the super strict robotic perfect form stuff is the ONLY way to train

[@SAGAYER1]

@@ChrisPBacon9 ok, but he pushes it all the time

[@TH3N0N4M3d]

@@SAGAYER1He pushes it because although its not the only way it is by far the optimal way in terms of gains and injury prevention. Its like having proper running form vs bad running form. Sure, you can do it. Sure, It still gets you somewhere and some gain. BUT it is by far not optimal and can be worse on your joints or muscles and maybe cause injury. Dr. Mike I feel pushes what he believes is correct and providing people with the information to optimize their training. But even on his channel he many times says do whats best for you and your body across many videos.

[@SAGAYER1]

@@TH3N0N4M3d the evidence to support that it's the optimal way are not strong as he claims. You will find his method very hard to progressive overload. I've never seen top bodybuilders train in this manner. And nothing guarantees injury prevention. You can get away with mild form breakdown and keep pushing for extra stimulus.

[@TH3N0N4M3d]

@@SAGAYER1Like I just said "Dr. Mike I feel pushes what he believes is correct and providing people with the information to optimize their training. But even on his channel he many times says do whats best for you and your body across many videos." Also nothing guarentees 0 injury BUT bad form can cause injury. Also, Injury preventation in anything is not about 0 injuries it about doing what you can to minimize your chances. I.E. Joel Embiid falls down/over all the time when landing hard to save his joints and stay healthy.

[@moneytimesfifteen]

There's a hidden plotline in this video where early on Alex casually puts down sumo pulling, then later he casually mentions blowing his back out 19 times in ten years

[@thedolenorway]

I'm 45, and my tendency to chase optimal has really held me back in pretty much all areas of my life. The something is better than nothing approach got me from the couch to running ultramarathons. Trying to apply it to strength training now. Pretty sure I've watched a lot more youtube deadlift technique breakdowns than I've done reps of deadlifts in my life. 🙈

[@JorgeGonzalez-sx7fk]

Learning to chase progress and not perfection can be tough

[@TheSuperappelflap]

Deadlifts are a pretty bad exercise anyway. Big risk of back injuries even if you do it right and you can train the same muscles with other exercises more effectively. Deadlifts really only have one thing going for them and that is doing ego lifts to set new PBs to get clout at your gym. I retiled by backyard this weekend and that did more for my back muscles than any gym exercise could do.

[@JorgeGonzalez-sx7fk]

@@TheSuperappelflap this is a terrible take. your hamstrings and spinal erectors will never be properly developed if you skip hip hinge movements. deadlifts only become dangerous when you suck at hinging and have an untrained low back

[@TheSuperappelflap]

@@JorgeGonzalez-sx7fk Those i developed by hiking up mountains with a 30kg backpack. I like the outdoors more than risking a hernia to save some time. The bonus is, you get to camp.

[@bmwofboganville456]

@@JorgeGonzalez-sx7fk Instead of heavy deadlifts off the floor, one can do rack pulls and hyperextensions. Or just start the first rep from the floor and lower to knees.

[@alik5972]

I'm glad to have found GVS before starting to lift, and I'm now even more grateful for his integrity to not being inflammatory towards RP.

[@wowandrss]

Having integrity to not being inflammatory towards someone? What now? You get bonus cookie points for not being a dick to something/someone who helps a massive nr of people? Or did I missunderstand?

[@Steven-bq5fu]

​@@wowandrssI think he's being sarcastic

[@alik5972]

@@wowandrss integrity to stay true to yourself and not to create drama for more views.

[@wowandrss]

@@Steven-bq5fu lets hope so

[@jugheadsrule]

@@alik5972 VerityScofield literally built his channel creating drama for more views

[@michaelfields714]

I use the RP app and really enjoy it. I like Dr. Mike most of the time but I'm very much of the opinion that everyone has something to offer and everyone has something not worth offering.

[@chronometa]

How is that app? I want a way to put my john meadows programs in some log that's easy to do.

[@Julian_FP-7]

@@chronometasave your money and use macrofactor coupled with boostcamp instead. Both of those together is still cheaper than the RP hypertrophy app by itself. I don’t think the algorithm is worth the price at the moment tbh.

[@The_MKUltra]

@@chronometa I find it great. Has a ton of exercises built it and can add custom exercises etc. Updates your rep targets based on your feedback. Tracks stats across your mesocycles. Not perfect but pretty damn good.

[@chronometa]

@@The_MKUltra yea. I want to see where I fall off in terms of sets for certain body parts.

[@danielprest5887]

​@@chronometaBoostcamp will be ideal to do what you want.

[@markpozsar5785]

People acting surprised that Dr. Mike isn't perfect either and has some extreme opinions. PHD is not magic, and a lot of what fitness/bodybuilding is is up to opinions and personal preference. Also, I am pretty sure that if GVS and Dr. Mike sat down to discuss this they would agree on 99%, weak ass drama.

[@SeuOu]

Yeah, that's my take too.

[@naev0]

But why sit down and hash things out, creating a productive conversation that can help us all find the middle ground, when you can get views on the internet instead?

[@legrandfromage9682]

It’s good that people aren’t treating him as some untouchable god when he’s in the wrong

[@leonardo9259]

The problem here is that he's making shit up for views, or heavily biasing theories, like ath-leanx

[@DCJayhawk57]

​@@leonardo9259 Pretty rarely, though, possibly increasing in frequency, but not enough evidence to say he's jumped the shark... yet.

[@TheWrxrally]

It's almost like a measured approach including multiple forms of training to address current weaknesses is a good thing or something. It's almost like we can train like Mike or like a strongman at different points in our training for different reasons. It's almost like tying yourself to a specific doctrine is actually the LEAST optimal thing you can do.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

Somehow, the advice "move and lift things in various ways so your body will develop" and "eat healthy food" and "get enough sleep" just doesnt do it for a lot of people, because that involves, you know, discipline and effort, so they look for a cheat code, a certain supplement or ridiculously overanalyzed overspecific workout routine that will get them to the finish line with less work. This is a bad mindset. Its not about the finish line, its about being healthy and feeling comfortable in your own body and maybe getting a bit bigger in the process.

[@AngryOscillator]

As Mike would say, you've got to mix up your training as move become stale and so on. Allows connective tissue to recover and a psychological refresh. You are aware that RP is first and foremost a bodybuilding channel, yeah?

[@jerzey22]

Being a fan and client of RP, as well as a former powerlifter and someone who cut their teeth on DC training in the early 2000s. I understand the take that over use of technical execution isn’t the main factor. However a few points. 1. If a person loves becoming as technically efficient as possible then so be it. Not everyone wants to be a bodybuilder or strength athlete. For some this may be exactly what they want and that’s okay. 2. After hiring RP (Jared in particular), he undoubtedly helped me through technical execution challenges that absolutely saved me from further injury, helped me re-spark muscle growth, and brought my hypertrophy training level to new heights. Over 9000 I would say 3. I completely agree that technical execution is not the main thing holding people back from gaining size. It’s absolutely true you can use less than optimal form to get big. However, there are trade-offs. As mentioned I had numerous injuries as do many others, focusing on technique will over the long-term help alleviate and prevent those injuries. 4. I agree that every exercise chosen does not need to be the one that allows it to be taken to the most end ranges. Some chosen exercises like a floor press doesn’t allow for such things, however other exercises that are targeting those muscles should be chosen that do allow the lifter to preform a long stretch. 5. I don’t buy the effective rep model. All reps matter Here’s the reality, everyone can and should work on their technique, it will take you further! Effort needs to be applied, through all reps. Control, long stretch, and a purposeful execution, the weight needs to be heavy enough that you are failing within your prescribed rep range and within your RIR for the day. Finally and most importantly have fun. It’s just weight lifting we aren’t building nuclear rockets

[@Damian.Williams]

Genuine questions... Are you a drug free lifter? If yes what is your FFMI thanks

[@JohnnyG1]

What is the flaw in the effective reps model?

[@jerzey22]

@@Damian.Williams I’m 43, started lifting at 19, competed in powerlifting through my late 20s and early 30s. Started TRT at age 36 through my doctor. Happy to be completely transparent

[@VegetaPrinceOfSaiyans]

Over 9000? I doubt it.

[@jerzey22]

@@VegetaPrinceOfSaiyans 😂🩷

[@jirieskelinen5607]

This video genuinely feels like there's been a massive misunderstanding

[@anandhua.b4589]

no it's not

[@SikDubzz]

Exactly. Mike says all these things. Bromely is strawmaning

[@mmboiler10]

Yeah dudes on steroids trying not to rip a peck off care about form. Mike's whole thing is what you need to do to not fuck your body for life. You wanna be stuck in bed like alot of these power lifters? Or do you wanna be healthy and not rip and tear shit. Partials are fine. Until you do any jerk at all. Then you can ruin your body. And bodybuilders with torn muscles lose every competition

[@beaualexander4608]

The big misunderstanding is where folks think GVS isn't an idiot 😂

[@kaiserfakinaway5909]

yeah these 2 guys seem to have just taken everything RP is saying and are only talking with their subconscious brain. "he said this gud, me no think this gud, this bad!!" I love them all but man these are just weird takes. misinformed maybe?

[@thebooper8988]

I think its also an implicit difference in that dr mike is pure hypertrophy. Very few people only care about hypertrophy, even a lot of pros. His methods will sacrafice strength, joy, etc to marginally decrease injury risk or increase hypertrophy in the hypothetical

[@milofitness7726]

Most of people only train for looks and dont really care about strenght (you could argue that most guys care about bench strenght but if that was true that only one thing done for strenght and hyperthrophy and the rest for hyperthrophy )

[@KurokamiNajimi]

There’s not much evidence that the more out of less weight philosophy makes you significantly or at all weaker only bottleneck with benching and OHP is being able to unrack the weight after a point but that can easily be fixed by doing static holds. I can instantly move the same weight I get for a 1 rep for a set of 7+ when switching between a slow tempo long pause larsen press to conventional fast tempo touch and go bench. We’ve seen Alex Leonidas show similar things with conjugate the highest max he touched throughout a year was 355 outside of 1 435 with a slingshot and he still put up 405 the first time he attempted it after having not done the conventional bench for a year

[@KekusMagnus]

I only care about hypertrophy. Most gym bros are lying to themselves if they think that "get bigger" is not the main reason they lift

[@KurokamiNajimi]

@@KekusMagnus I care about both equally I find it interesting that so many only care about size. To me caring only about one makes the whole thing more repetitive

[@taylorhillard4868]

Speak for yourself. If a genie appeared before me and said "i can give you your dream physique but in return you will have the strength of a 90 year old woman with osteoporosis" i would say yes in a heartbeat. Being strong has very few practical uses unless its your job. Whereas a good body is a currency.

[@robertreese6903]

Universal advice that works. 1, Do what works. 2, keep yourself safe. Just do that

[@robertauclair2278]

I think it's the nature of being a fitness content creator. Training isnt the complicated but when your job is to keep creating new content you eventually become pedantic with your recommendations.

[@snowiblind]

glad GVS isnt the only one noticing this

[@abhijotsingh321]

I can bet a lot of people noticed that a while ago. But GVS had the guts to speak. I believe atlaspowershrugged also comment a week earlier on techniqueCyborg post with same concerns.

[@beburs]

Gvs keeps it real.

[@erko948]

noticing what? (I dont have time to watch the video😩)

[@kloppaxx_6527]

@@erko948mikes been twerking…

[@snowiblind]

​@@erko948 RP promoting their way of training as the only "optimal" way to train (e.g. very controlled almost excessively in cases or not giving any bit of oomph to sets), sticking to viewpoints as if they are dogmatic

[@knoname7778]

You three...Bromley, GVS & Dr Mike all give probably some of the best lifting advice out here in these KZbin streets. Fitness journeys are different for everyone but I hear & agree with what's being said here.

[@tohhhype2043]

in terms of body building i say the best in terms of top 5 are 1) alex leonidas 2) geoffrey verity schofield 3) basement body building 4) natural hypertrophy 5) bald omni man - i feel like all of these guys are better in terms of info because they are all naturals and know what are the most effective dr mike is cool sometimes and other times its like wtf is he talking about one instance is when he made the video about front squats being dangerous which was actual bs.

[@leonardo9259]

​@@tohhhype2043natties rise up

[@YouTubeChillZone]

This Mike entered the stage of KZbinr life like anyone who targets a particular group from which he wants to take money and changed the channel's rhetoric to a sect. He is a leader and is always 100% right and an expert even when he talks nonsense. I stopped listening to RP about half a year ago because they are starting to reinvent the wheel. The basics of training are the same for everyone and you don't have to be an expert to see someone lying or abusing authority

[@josephbecker7570]

@@tohhhype2043 nice list. Mine would more be 2, 3, 5/4, 1 with RP in the middle somewhere. But I agree with the premise of the video. Dr Mike is going a bit cray cray lately.

[@Abdo.R.Mohamed]

pretty much same as my list "Regardless of the order" , but i would add *Fazlifts* to that list too .. @@tohhhype2043

[@MxPinky]

I’m subscribed to you, GVS, and RP. I enjoy all of y’alls videos, and I think just being able to think for oneself and make a call to what works best FOR YOU, is probabpy one of the most important lessons not only in the gym but in life overall. Lifting with a big stretch works fine for me, truly, but first and foremost is just puttin in the damn effort and gettin myself stimulated. If I’m fatigued and I need some rest I say “you know what lemme try the RP style as I recover from my more harsh style of training”. It does great for me less fatigue but also less stimulus than I prefer. I use that style of training for a recovery phase. I think using ibtelligent planning and not smashing one’s head into the brick of perfect technique is important. Sure, maybe someone has that perfect technique but honestly? I don’t need to be perfect. effort and effect and growth of my clients and myself is great. You end up sacrificing the parts that just in my experience help me and others grow more. But hey, if it works for you, right on.

[@t_c5266]

Nobody mentioned the happy medium... The drop set. The whole "cheat rep" is to get a little extra when youre already toast. But with drop sets you maintain form and also get that last little bit.

[@5thgearouttahere]

14:00 Bromley mentions it in the video you are replying to ...

[@jonnovak6856]

@@5thgearouttahereWhat am I supposed to do? Consume the content I'm commenting on?

[@FilmFlam-8008]

Mike employs this all the time in his KZbin vids. Down to the point of using bodyweight squats after leg presses.

[@TheOakenwulf]

I like this clarification. RP is a good channel overall. This perspective helps smooth out the perfectionist tendency and allows for further progress.

[@DCJayhawk57]

There's no such thing as perfect technique. Just get good technique that is safe enough, sustainable, and puts the tension where you want it. If you're a bodybuilder, you want growth, which means trying to make each exercise hard either in the stretched position or throughout the ROM. I think it's impossible to ever progress on bent rows if you're ultra strict, because that strict form biases top end strength, which isn't the most stimulative for muscle growth, and turns the small upper back muscles into the limiting factors instead of your traps and lats. If you want to hit those muscles, you should be doing everything you can to make them the limiting factor instead of have it happen by accident, i.e. use a wide grip and pull to your lower chest instead of abdomen, for example, or even better, use a machine or dumbbells where you can really direct the stress where you want it. If you're a strength athlete, efficiency in moving from point A to point B is more important than optimizing hypertrophy stimulus.

[@TheOakenwulf]

@DCJayhawk57 good points. The "perfectionist tendency" statement was meant to address how that behavior can sometimes lead to a limiting mindset, as the video implies. Very useful knowledge about the rows. Thank you for the feedback.

[@marcusorillius6971]

I agree with Mike most of the time but I also think it’s ok to do 1 or 2 reps where technique begins to breakdown a bit.

[@grandarchon6969]

Mike literally says it's okay to do this on some exercises, especially on rows (watch the video where he critiques his younger self). Especially for more advanced athletes. But it's also okay, and may even be better, to do other intensity techniques, like myo reps, lengthened partials, drop sets, etc. once you start to lose form. It's important to do reps basically the same way each time, so you can accurately measure progress. It's probably best to shoot for a low A, like 90% perfect reps, and just try hard.

[@AbrahamsYTC]

Same. I also noticed some “do as I say, not as I do” on his instagram. He definitely doesn’t go as slow in his own workouts as he tells others. I went from super slow eccentric to slow eccentric and noticed almost immediate strength and rep gains where I was starting to plateau.

[@grandarchon6969]

Again, the key is just consistent reps on the eccentric and pause. Controlled for number of reps, there isn't a difference in the gains from 1 second to 8 second eccentrics. If you like doing 1 second, cool. If you like 2 or 4. Cool. Just do them the same so you can accurately measure progress and keep pushing yourself.@@AbrahamsYTC

[@simplybaker.]

He quite literally talks about the good evidence behind lengthened partials

[@marcusorillius6971]

@@grandarchon6969 true

[@chronometa]

I'll be honest. After going through an assortment of different views. I think John Meadows had it mostly correct. Controlled eccentric, full range of motion in most instances, and explosive concentric.

[@Fart_n_Butt]

Isnt that what dr. Mike also says

[@snowiblind]

​@@Fart_n_Butt to a bit of an extreme and is completely against any use of body english seems like (e.g. bending back for last rep on curl)

[@Fart_n_Butt]

@@snowiblind yeah i agree. I just personally never got that perception from mikes videos. The cyborg thing. Not too sure what he’s tryna do with that. Cause form like that isn’t what he actually promotes in all the videos ive watched. Me personally. Dr. Mike has given me the best advice and ive learned the most from his videos. For instance when i do RDLs. I go slow eccentric pause and all that but I load the shit as heavy as possible.

[@snowiblind]

​@@Fart_n_Butt in some of the workout videos, they do some form that looks akin to the cyborg stuff (not always)

[@chronometa]

I like that John has some explosive stuff in there as well. Makes training more fun. My chest presses are a little more controlled and I don't go up all the way to avoid burning out my triceps. But I squat like a weightlifter with barbells. Focus on the stretch with leg presses. I do less weight overall but feel as if I'm still getting a good stimulus due to the stretch.

[@santoorey]

Ive been lifting for 10 years consistently, RP's insights work for me because it provides variation to my training which ran out of noobie gains. My advice for young lifters: lift as heavy as you can with the best technique you can, eat relatively good and REST

[@lm13eddfs]

god i hope we get a debate with geof and mike

[@Kojas]

Dr Mike has been a great source of information for me, a beginner. Of course is not the only way to train but for sure is a safe and smart way.

[@rosymuscovy7967]

Hope title doesn’t get changed this time, cause that’s spicy.

[@benjaminjameskurz]

What was it? What is now doesn’t look spicy to me

[@mattpujol1111]

Progressive overload WITH good technique (not necessarily over-obsessive technique like Dr. Mike sometimes preaches) is the key to consistent gains imo. Yeah, throw in those partials towards the end sometimes, plus rest-pause or drop sets if you're feeling frisky, but most of the time training hard with good technique while consistently progressively overloading weight, reps, tempo, volume, etc. is more than enough. "Paralysis by analysis" definitely is a thing in this industry.

[@omaralvarez6857]

There is no way to get grinding reps if we would bail once form starts to deteriorate.

[@SeuOu]

Is there some special benefit to that you want to get from it?

[@DCJayhawk57]

​@user-fn1cd6mo9z Some exercises never feel easy, though. Weighted pullups, bent rows, overhead press. If you bail when your technique feels kind of off, you'll never approach real failure. Perfect technique isn't a thing, it's all relative. Even in Olympic lifting, a highly technical lifting sport, everyone has different technique.

[@leonardo9259]

​@@SeuOustimulus????

[@dennisnordlund902]

@@SeuOumechanical tension

[@boccobadz]

Are you a juiced-out maxxed-out Olympia competitor who need to push further beyond past failure to squeeze a little bit of gains? Or you're your average gym bro who benched 315 for reps after sarm cycle lol - 99.9% don't need to go to failure to grow muscle; yeah, they that far from reaching their genetic potential. It's just ego lifting and something you would have done to get more views (risking your health like eg Larry). Learning to properly program so the last rep of the last set feels kinda heavy (so let's say RPE 9/9.5) is enough, no need to push more. Unless, of course, you're a competitive athlete (keep in mind bodybuilding is a beauty pageant not a sport), then you gotta do what you gotta do.

[@martinclarke2903]

I am a 57 yo Physical Therapist. Been lifting since I was 14/15, dabbled in power lifting. Participated in Muay Thai ( very little sparring), BJJ , NOGI and played football, basketball, baseball, soccer and wrestled. Grew up skate boarding and did a little BMX. Some of my joints are a little worn out but still very active. I have incorporated Dr Mike's techniques and he is spot on and gives good, safe advice. He supports with scientific literature and if followed will result in gains.

[@WizzdummHeadley]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@SaturnReturns]

Just lift hard and progressively overload with decent form. It's so simple. These figureheads with crap to sell endlessly try to reinvent the wheel.

[@EriPages]

You've made it too simple. Your internet access has been revoked.

[@weirdo3116]

? Mike is all about this. Or at least that's what I got from watching his videos.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

Man lift heavy thing. Oogabooga.

[@ShawnGetty-eb1gj]

Yep. Been bodybuilding since the 90s and it can almost entirely be summed up by "lift heavy enough to be challenging, when it gets easy increase the weight". Anything that is taken to or close to failure and is progressive is going to work.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

@@ShawnGetty-eb1gj oogabooga

[@charlescady1669]

If you watch Dr Mikes videos on stretch mediated hypertrophy you’ll see that he agrees that it’s not the most important thing about your training by a long shot, consistently, progressive overload, diet, program design, SFR, etc. are all more important, but as more and more studies come out they consistently confirm that a loaded stretch is more hypertrophic than not. This doesn’t mean you have to do it, there’s no dogma and Dr Mike would definitely agree with that, but it’s something that’ll give you a bit more gains if you already have everything else figured out. And I do agree that there might be a bit too much emphasis on it in his videos but I think he’s pretty clear that it’s not the end all be all of training either.

[@BuJammy]

"stretched under load"

[@charlescady1669]

@@BuJammy potatoes tomatoes

[@TheJipino]

I thought this was going to be about the number of sexual/gay jokes per video. It's gotten out of hand and it feels like it's aimed at 16-year-olds.

[@wigletron2846]

Mike needs to get his estradiol checked on his next bloodwork.

[@user-wk5yc7eb7t]

"Jokes"?

[@AngryOscillator]

I do miss the days of construction workers and galactic space empires but the comments section are always full of people remarking on how they love the dick jokes so can't really blame the guy for milking what works.

[@HUVideoer]

Dan John have a great story on meeting Robby Robinson in a gym, and he said that the "real " hypertrophy training he did was Bench press and pullups for uppper body and Front squats and straight legged deadlifts for lower body. No specific load or reps, just set after set until the bodypart was "blown up"

[@binyaming7921]

You hit the nail on the head about the "over confident extrapolations". Very unscientific to make such universal claims honestly and it bugs me.

[@artvandelay1720]

RP videos never have citations for what they're talking about so it's hard to separate what's been proven in studies from what's based on anecdotes or just guessing. Dr. Mike talks about nutrient timing with the same confidence that he talks about stretch focus. Layne Norton has a video on the subject where he basically says that there's not much information on it.

[@leonardo9259]

​@@artvandelay1720but hey just sip in some gay jokes and incel skits and people will swallow it up

[@ShawnGetty-eb1gj]

Eric Helms has begun criticizing RP for this as well now. To call Mike Israetel science based at this point would be a joke.

[@MrCmon113]

@@artvandelay1720 Information on stretch focus or nutrient timing?

[@cliffonator1111]

Although they're taking it to an extreme, I thought it was fine (but boring) to go really slow on the eccentric and explode on the concentric

[@roebuckmckinney]

Mike did a really good video about deadlifting last week. I was surprised at how much he was recommending stuff that makes sense (working in low rep ranges, deficit pulling to strengthen the erectors, developing grip) rather than just talking about getting jacked and perfect technique. He supposedly has a more advanced techniques video about deadlifts forthcoming, and I'm looking forward to it. He definitely shouldn't talk about strongman. I agree with that. But even with his recent decline and weird plunges into doing middle school level humor (which he can't seem to stop doing, even though it doesn't drive engagement as far as I can tell) I still think you can get a nugget of good info from him on about half of his publicly released videos. By comparison, I can tell Geoffrey Schofield is a nice guy. I like Geoffrey Schofield. But I very rarely get anything I can use from him. His stuff is so targeted to teens and twenty somethings who are still struggling with the basics that I haven't really watched him in several months. I actually think he's right about Mike in many ways. Not trying to hate on him. Just saying this is unfortunate. For both of them, really.

[@drschwandi3687]

I really liked the recently done OHP video Mike did with Omar, great info. I think often he does not make it clear that a lot of his info is targeted at really advanced people where stimulus-to-fatigue ratios become very important because you are so strong. He seems to be biased in that sense because he as an advanced steroid using lifter has to focus so much on that. The Geoffrey content on the other hand is often super simplistic. It is so often just the basics repeated in another form.

[@musashi542]

funny how both of you talk about gvs and how simplistic he goes , probably pencil necks tbh .

[@SSHayden]

I had the same feeling about GVS, but then he made a great video about front squats, and basically BTFO Mike yet another time

[@roebuckmckinney]

@@musashi542 You know, I did intend on getting four reps at 515 when I was deadlifting today (conventional, no belt), but I only ended up with a triple. So yeah, pencil neck like a motherfucker. I'll have to cling to that 350 lb single on bench I got last Thursday and hope to do better in the future.

[@musashi542]

@@roebuckmckinney yeah sure bud .

[@danknfrshtv]

As an older amateur lifter, I really do appreciate these debates and the general levels of respect between commentators. As a non-expert I rely on you fellas to keep me safe and productive in my lifting 💪

[@manicmandownup]

Funny how a problem is being created/instigated, Bromley analyzes it and all the comments are like…yeah, I hate RP. Drones. Israetel uses the most appropriate data for the time and he is always willing to evolve as the data and science does. He’s actually a scientist. Not a fanboy or a bro.

[@susanwojcickisnicetwin]

I think they are also really good at acknowledging individual training variations.

[@CarlYota]

I don’t get the hate. Mike seems logical, nice, and dispassionate as a scientist should I bought the book. I learned from it. I applied it to my training. I don’t see what the problem is. It all makes sense if hypertrophy is the goal. People are tribal. That’s the real issue here.

[@manicmandownup]

@@CarlYota tribal, that’s interesting

[@BradSchoenfailed]

Dude even Eric Helms has criticized Mike Israetel recently and he never comes after anyone. Israetel has been making ridiculous claims like the pump is important for hypertrophy. He’s literally stating his opinion is “science based” when it’s not.

[@MrCmon113]

Yep, he even admitted that he was wrong on full rom and bent the knee to Milo Wolf's lengthened partials.

[@dansites3574]

I like listening to 4’ tall Dr Mike talk form and full ROM while watching Mr Olympia Jay Cutler swing out partials with his whole body

[@ghsty95]

i have absolutely no idea what this beef is about honestly because none of the arguments made are actually against things that mike has said, in fact everything you and geoff seem to mention here ive heard mike also say. majority of the time in his videos he emphasises stretching the muscles because thats what the data says is the best way to build muscle for body building. thats his job. but ive also seen him talk about just moving the weight and how you can go super heavy on certain lifts if you are up for it. hes said many times theres no 1 answer so im really struggling to understand this beef

[@suburiboy]

I mentioned this in the rows video, but for us newbies(most of the audience, even on this channel and RP) It is very hard to figure out the technique vs effort balance on rows. in a squat or benchpress, the technique is pretty stable up to within a few reps of failure. In rows, exertion automatically pulls you out of position, unless your hips and low back are made of solid marble. So I jive with "more effort" as a general guideline(I for sure need to learn to get closer to failure), but there are some exercises that are not compatible with both high effort and good technique for a majority of the audience.

[@analogcrunch4716]

Barbell rows? It’s easy go watch how golden era bodybuilders did them and don’t do Yates rows you aren’t there yet. Hinge at hips so you are almost parallel to floor and row to your belly button. Watch Lee Haney do it

[@suburiboy]

⁠@@analogcrunch4716the issue is that pulling the bar up pulls your body out of position, unless you have hips and low back made of marble. I think most beginners struggle to put the exact right amount of force through the hips to not buckle forward or shoot up.

[@BeginnerMoto]

I agree with Geoff’s take. I’ve been following KZbin fitness for a while and I’m starting to notice patterns with the science based community. Many times they are confirming or refining the broscience that people knew to work already. Because of this, I think it’s foolish to immediately disregard broscience because of lack of scientific evidence. I also see many science based creators disregard the “human” elements of training by saying it’s not “optimal”. What I mean by that are the feelings of satisfaction, accomplishment, fun, or practicality that comes with training aren’t as valuable if they come at the expense of the optimal or proper technique or recovery. You have to figure out what works for you at an individual level and as you get more experienced, that becomes easier.

[@TheOakenwulf]

Why not integrate the "optimal" form into the equation of fun and enjoyment? Win, win.

[@UnofficialLesTwins]

The science based creators like RP and Jeff Nippard account for the "human" element as well. I've seen many videos where they mention how important it is to select exercises that are fun since decent technique done consistently will beat perfect technique done inconsistently. Also, I don't think science is just confirming or just refining "broscience". If your idea of refinement is significantly improving upon something then sure... I'll agree. But if we look back at the 90's lifters and even the 2000's lifters and see what their dieting, workout protocol, and cycles looked like... we get to see how much better our understanding of science is.

[@DCJayhawk57]

​@UnofficialLesTwins Great points. I think a lot of the seeming controversy is just Mike "playing the game" for engagement, like his rash of videos recently geared towards women (and with clickbait thumbnails to get the guys). It's kind of all part of the game of making a living on social media. If you're not evolving your content, you're dying. Anyone who has watched Mike for a long period of time knows how to read between the lines and see what he really thinks. He has a pretty flexible training philosophy in practice, but he often takes the technique stuff to extremes when training others on camera, both for notoriety and because some people legitimately don't know how to move their bodies even if they're jacked (the high effort, good genetics, "jacked by accident" crowd).

[@BeginnerMoto]

@@UnofficialLesTwins I've been watching Mike and Jeff regularly for many years now and I would consider myself a fan of both. They've both taught me things that have helped me get better. What I was referring to when I say "human" element was more wholistic such as convenience of applying the advice, is it something that the individual wants to repeat again, do they derive value out of it, etc. While exercise selection is an important part of what I was referring to, that was a subset of I was getting at. My point was that sometimes trying to do the optimal scientific thing may not be congruent with the reality of just living life. One example that comes to my mind is a situation that I had after watching one of Mike's videos about cardio. In the video, he said that doing cardio after a training session, reduces the amount of muscle that you can grow because it down regulates mTOR I think. I tried doing my cardio in morning and lifting at night so that I had adequate time as to not have any interference with muscle growth. What ended up happening is that I wasn't consistent with that schedule. For me, if I don't do my cardio while I'm in the gym after weights, I won't do it. I made a decision that if I was to reach my weight loss goal, I need to deviate from the scientifically "optimal" path to the practical one. While I don't think science based fitness KZbinrs would say I'm wrong for making that decision, inexperienced people who watch their videos get so fixated on being "optimal" that they forget to do the thing that just works for them. The majority of us watching these videos are just regular people trying to do a little better each day. Science absolutely helps with that but I believe sometimes we forget what's practical and what made us fall in love with the process to begin with.

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

​@@TheOakenwulf because you dont get a false binary that way. Im not a bodybuilder and i watch dr mike knowing his advice is just for that and incorporate it where it suits me

[@JegErAlan]

As I head toward reaching six decades this year, I have just begun my deliberate weightlifting journey. I’m glad KZbin suggested this video. Thank you for it.

[@yourstrulyfocused]

I won’t let my form deviate from what I deem a perfect 10, down to anything lower than a 7. I can’t risk the injury but I’m willing to push it most definitely.

[@Kojas]

Exactly. I m 38 and i cant afford to get injured. Gotta work and recovery time is not as good as when I was young

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

Do you do drop sets?

[@NVMiele78]

For me the formula is simple - are my numbers going up - yes - then continue - no - vary something; technique, the lift itself, weight, volume, rest periods between sets, food intake, speed of each rep. Any of those variables can be tweaked to keep my numbers moving. As long as I am enjoying myself and at the end of a workout I'm gassed, then I feel fulfilled. The stall outs come and go but I show up each time ready and eager to get pumping. That said, it's nice to show up at a meet and best my numbers from last time and if I can't AND I am not enjoying myself then maybe I need to take a step back and reassess

[@aliendroneservices6621]

2013 called. It wants its *_jump cuts_* back.

[@CarlYota]

I thought the whole point was to use between 30 and 85% of 1rm and do between 5 and 30 reps at RPE around 8. If the weight is light you have to do more reps and bar speed will be fast until the end. If hypertrophy is the goal it’s all very similar as long as you’re fulfilling those requirements. I personally keep the reps around 10 because I don’t want my sets to be that long but it doesn’t matter if your volume and intensity are correctly matched. Is that not the RP message? Is it wrong?

[@therambunctiousrobloxian9323]

i love dr. mike and he has great information, but he is way too critical of lifters that don't train like him in my opinion. not only those with suboptimal form, but those that train for different purposes. he has a very narrow scope

[@reneverheij6938]

Yeah I think for the general population pursuing strength training through powerlifting as a hobby is a much better use of your time then the bodybuilding stuff with bulking, cutting and endless hypertrophy work

[@drschwandi3687]

I mean he can make videos only for people who have the same goals as him but he should state more clearly who the information he provides is actually for.

[@lm13eddfs]

@@reneverheij6938 care to post your sbd?

[@hippie_4762]

That doesn't just apply to bodybuilding either, you can save yourself a brain aneurysm by not watching Mike's OTHER channel.

[@yorkiepit]

He's super negative, a good rule to follow is to cut as much negativity as possible out of your life, it's a path to nowhere.

[@likeworks]

I think it's great for the online fitness content community as a whole to have these discussions. There's HEAPS of content out there these days about optimisation, which is 100% a net positive for fitness enthusiasts as a whole. As a reaction to this, we're seeing people like Bromley and Sam Sulek, with their no-nonsense, fundamentalist approach, gain huge followings. We should all feel very lucky to have a broad spectrum of well thought opinions on something we are all clearly passionate about.

[@TheTechno679]

I use the RP and frankly dr mike content added a lot to my progress, I hit a new wave of gains after i started controling the negative, stretching the muscle and periodizing training… that said I do agree not all excercises have to be executed to absolute perfection. I dont think I would get anywhere with my barbell rows if I had “perfect” technique all the time

[@jamaydog]

I feel like people miss the point of what Mike is saying he demonstrates full ROM and almost perfect technique to show what it looks like. But he preaches more that you need to enjoy the workout and that if you want to cheat abit you will still get gains but is just showing how to really get the most out of every movement if you want to know.

[@davidkymdell452]

Most fitness channels eventually start to sniff their own farts after a while.....Athlean, Doucette, Rennaissance. There's only so much shit you can talk about before you have to start repackaging it

[@MrCmon113]

There is only so much to say about lifting, yes. But to group RP with Athlean and Doucette is still unfair.

[@sebastiaanultee5876]

I trained this way for a good year or two, didn’t see much growth at all. Went back to lifting with more intensity and “looser form” (still controlled) and started seeing progress again.

[@deadbones23]

Not sure about this take. RP talks about all those things that you said you preach about also, such as effort and overload and good sleep. He just also happens to advocate for good technique and strech on the muscle. Because, as you said he follows what reserach says is best for muscle growth.

[@johndillion5804]

Dr. Mike has said on many occasions that he is cautious about defining what is the best kind of way to work out. If you have ever watched one of his training videos, i think you would be hard pressed to say he and the people he is coaching arent giving their full effort with heavy weight and progressively overloading their workouts. also what you are seeing with his responses praising good form is him lifting up people who are getting started on their journey, and prioritizing form over lifting heavy. when you are 2 months in form is infinity more important than trying to pull an 800lb dl after 1 year. you CAN build more muscle by lifting less weight, but some people like the goal of lifting a large weight rather than looking big. feels like bros being mad that people dont work out like them when everyone is comically different in how they are structured.

[@Keranu]

Fitness dogma has become worse than religious dogma.

[@ryanleal1764]

I think Full ROM is a little silly for some exercises. For example the top of the squat is the easiest part of the squat. By doing the top 1/4 of the squat you’re literally taking tension off of the quads. It’s much harder to skip the top portion of some exercises than to do them. Top of a bench is mostly anterior delts and triceps. Why do we bench? For a big chest. Instead of focusing on full rom maybe it makes more sense to focus on the full range of tension for the specific muscles you’re trying to target within each exercise. I do think emphasizing and controlling the eccentric makes a lot of sense, specifically bc that’s the easiest part of the rep. If you don’t control it you’re just letting gravity take over meaning you’re giving up a lot of tension you could easily use.

[@MayVeryWellBeep]

I think it's funny when he talks about the way a creators content interacts with the expectations of their audience because I am literally a skinny person who goes to the gym only for the moderate health improvements (prevent muscle and bone wasting as I age, feel strong and healthy over my life, look a little nicer). I just watch all this bodybuilding and strongman content to see what someone who is training to reach The Top does, so I can do something a little bit like it when I'm in the gym. I think there's a lot of people like that who watch these channels and maybe don't realise that if you're not trying to be a strongman competitor or bodybuilder and don't care about getting that big, you actually don't need to train as hard as one either - it's this weird disconnect between the content creator's intended audience and the people who actually turn up to watch

[@paullane7489]

This is all very interesting to me. Because it also seems to matter how you take what is being said and your own personal experience level. I have been lifting weights consistently for 30+ years, way over half my life. I recently bought the RP app and have really enjoyed it and seen decent gains considering I’m a seasoned lifter. I never took it like the people they are using as an example of technique. I did slow down my eccentric though and exaggerated the stretch at the bottom. I also increased my frequency of training on particular muscles groups. But I knew better than to start moving like a robot with super light weight. So I think it also depends on who is hearing Dr Mike’s recommendations. People new to lifting seem to take this advice and info much more literally than people that have their own knowledge base. Anyway, great info from all three camps. Keep up the good work.

[@dylanzachery]

After watching this, I’m convinced they haven’t actually watched Dr. Mikes videos.

[@JoshBenedict-n8k]

I appreciate this video, your perspective and that people(including yourself) are bringing this topic up. As a novice/intermediate lifter I’ve learned a lot from RP’s content, but I absolutely think if you’re not able to extract information from multiple educational sources, then using RP’s philosophies will be at the detriment of your gains. I feel like they are doing a disservice to beginning lifters by not emphasizing load and intensity as much as they emphasize form. From my experience form is not greater than all else.

[@MyIcepick]

Variation doesn't require poor/sloppy/inconsistent form. It's achieved through exercise selection, or in some cases, variation in rep ranges. If you don't want to get better form/technique over time, cool. You can get big with bad form and half reps. Just like you can get big with a bad diet, and less than optimal sleep. Dr. Mike's, and other's, point is you could better achieve that goal with good technique and ensuring you work the muscle in the lengthened position. This will likely reduce the weight "on the bar" because it's harder on some exercises (the reduced weight also reduces injury risk). If you just focus on the lengthened position something Mike also supports for many exercises now, you can actually increase the weight (some pulling motions come to mind). But the idea that strict form limits hypertrophy (as stated by some in the comments) is just ridiculous. BTW, I love the shirt.

[@crisstoff89]

I think everything is out of context and people are just viewing in extremes, its a common thing in social media.

[@charlesdexterward7781]

*blink* *blink* *blink* "Hey guys" *blink* "Dr. Mike here" *blink* *blink* "let's watch me train this gal with some super strict RDL's while I aggressively critique her form" *blink* *blink* *blink* *blink* *blink* *blink*

[@beburs]

Lol 😂

[@heyheyhophop]

Where is the sex predator joke though?!

[@donovancarlin8581]

This has nothing to do with being to strict on ur form and everything to do with simply not training hard enough. There is ppl who genuinely have “perfect” form & train to absolute failure. The clips shown r just from ppl not training hard enough, simple as that. 1. His point of no pros use “ultra deep” ranges of motion isn’t sound reasoning. There is so much literature on training quads in deep ranges of motion being superior for growth. It’s as close as being set in stone can get at this point. 2. Variation is important, does not mean standardizing form isn’t what’s best. U can change exercises, tempos, rep ranges. But standardizing form for a movement ur currently doing can only be a good thing to accurately track consistent progress. Goal isn’t perfection but very relative form from rep to rep.

[@zarante5640]

the opening is gold

[@hjewkes]

What your saying about rows and movements that are hardest at the start is basically “its ok to do partial reps when the stress is in the lengthened position”. Which is something all of the science based shit like RP is really leaning into right now. I dont really see the gap here

[@darrellgrant7615]

I hate this type of content. Everyone shitting on each other and it’s usually someone more popular than them. Nothing but using the other person’s name to farm clicks. Why don’t you just set up a collaboration and find out or critique the person to his face? The reality is because they don’t want a better understanding of that person ‘s mindset and training philosophy. They just want to push their own as the gospel they’re supposedly against so much.

[@chattingwithshap8010]

So much complicated stuff in the exercise world. Good technique - eating well - progressing slowly - recovery - compound movements- programming correctly-- lots of success. For the vast majority of people these tips will make a huge difference. Too many people are looking for the one food - one exercise - one tip. None of that exists. Getting better is a process that works for every person if they follow certain steps.

[@BrendanPace]

Oh God is Mike going through what athlean x did 4-5 years back?

[@Kojas]

What happened to Athlean?

[@BrendanPace]

@Kojas fake weights, every 6-8 months would swap out what the "best" exercise for a muscle is and make previous recommended movements seem suboptimal, shifted to infotainment over hard informative videos, and for a period recommended overcooked movements/workout structures. Over all he was forced to give into the need for new content on a regular cycle that KZbin requires. He knows his stuff but just needed to do what KZbin requires to be successful.

[@Kojas]

@@BrendanPace thank you Brendan Wow..fake weights...gonna check this Sad about the youtuve cycle but it s true...

[@greyaye8565]

I don't disagree on the issue being addressed here, but I'm more curious about the number of edits you're doing. They seem extremely frequent. Is it not better to rather do a better take than spend more time cutting and editing? Wouldn't that also increase the likelihood of your future takes being less prone to errors requiring retakes or edits? Genuinely asking...unsure of how it all works.

[@Mechanicallifts]

I was here when it was the first thumbnail.

[@codyyancey6304]

I think most experienced lifters, ESPECIALLY those that watch Dr. Mike, know well that good form in every set is a North Star, something you work and practice to move toward, but not something you are going to actually achieve assuming you are also putting effort into everything else required like intensity, volume, diet, sleep, etc. It is one of many important things and people make tradeoffs with their time, attention, and effort. That being said, you learn 95% of what you'll ever need in like a year or so after you hit your first real plateau and start researching. After that, you watch Dr. Mike because he's hilarious and entertaining and those kinds of shared experiences help fitting into a community.

[@Schlook]

Oh no not drama :(

[@fatcat22able]

Wouldn't really call this drama. If a big channel known for posting good information is starting to become more questionable, it deserves to be called out so as not to mislead the masses (us).

[@rug0s0]

@@fatcat22ablenah the more likely there is a lot of jealousy

[@fatcat22able]

@@rug0s0 Jealousy how? Neither GVS nor Alexander Bromley are interested in clout or growing their channels as big as possible - their content would be very different if that were the case. So what, do you think RP should NEVER be criticized at all? Foh

[@paavoilves5416]

@@fatcat22able I mean Bromley is quite a different channel than it was a couple years ago. Not as good as it used to be but still good, the content is just more engaging to make more money, which is understandable. Mike on the other hand doesn't really have a good reason to show these extreme form videos etc and I think it's good that he's getting some critique. After he does teach good stuff and he even trains with real technique himself so I don't really see why show DYEL's extreme form videos...

[@The_MKUltra]

@@fatcat22able The volume and overall quality of content coming out of RP dwarfs almost any other channel on YT. Without question when you post every day some times the well runs a bit dry. That being said based on the years of very solid, useful info, I do not care if some videos or topics are a bit off. Growing your brand is your job when you are a growing business. The slightly "questionable" topics from time to time are far from noteworthy in comparison to the reach and impact the RP team have had on helping people get fit and healthy.

[@damiancorbeil304]

I think that the “technique cyborg” thing is kind of a bit like the Team Full Rom thing. I believe Dr. Mike has even said in a few videos that it’s not a good idea to obsess over technique to the point of not progressing or having an unrealistic barrier for entry. I May be wrong, but i dunno

[@_baller]

Weider and Arnold is all I ever needed, the science is exhausted on lifting, just lift and eat and maybe do steroids

[@vidyastuff3509]

I never want Dr. Mike to stop. He's the funniest totally not gay for reals fitness guy. And yeah I'm gonna trust the... ya know... literal doctor over the dude who's like "Bro just lift heavier bro and blow your back out like Ronnie Coleman" Videos like this really demonstrate why so many lifters end up crippled. Mike telling people how to do things effectively and safely and his critics are like "NAH Dog, needing walking aids like you have MS when you're 40 is the coolest."

[@willratelle8027]

If I said that water is wet, Jordan Feigenbaum would ask me if I have evidence to support that statement.

[@AlexanderBromley]

Hahaha

[@Daniearp]

Citation needed

[@TheSuperappelflap]

Technically, water isnt wet. Things that are covered with water, or soaked in it, or other fluids, are wet.

[@BigBADSTUFF69]

he would actually say you are lacking nuance

[@somefuckstolemynick]

⁠​⁠@@TheSuperappelflapso if I chose any arbitrary volume of water in a body of water, you are telling me that water is not “covered, or soaked in” water? Water is wet mate, per definition.

[@diotheworld6430]

I have a clinically prescribed low IQ so I don't know what anyone here is talking about, but I like Mike he's funny

[@baronmeduse]

I've been waiting for the backlash for some time. It was inevitable. I've been lifting a fairly long time, (32 years) and even though I have always agreed with the concept of good technique, there's also the point of sheer grit when you just have to finish reps. There's also been a bit of a fetish recently with the idea of getting the same results from what are really small weights. Whilst I agree that you can squeeze the best out of moderate weights with good technique , I would also say: 'show me a big bastard who only does OHP with 60Kg'.

[@ghfjfghjasdfasdf]

“Only does OHP with 60kg” Damn that hurt me…

[@howitzer92]

It's like Ronny said. Everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but nobody wants to lift no heavy-ass weights.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

@@howitzer92I dont want to be a bodybuilder. Im just trying to be less fat and a bit more wide.

[@howitzer92]

@@TheSuperappelflap Concept is the same. If you wanna look like you lift...You gotta lift.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

@@howitzer92 or... go swimming. lots of swimming. ive never been as ripped as when i went swimming 2km 3 times a week. doesnt take much time either.

[@victorjimenez7213]

As a scientist/meat head, the basics will always work. The issue with guys like Mike or Jeff Niparf is that they rate Cable Partial S tier for back development while Rows or Deadlifts are C tier. It’s honestly laughable

[@Ligmaballin]

@@comment_deleted Yet he's natty and in a better shape than you'll ever be

[@victorjimenez7213]

@@Ligmaballin if my job was to look as good as possible for views and likes. Trust me we’d all look as good as Jeff. Most of us take this as a hobby after family, work and loved ones.

[@MeTooMan]

@@Ligmaballinprobably not.

[@drschwandi3687]

Was that video not focused on upper back development where the deadlift is really not a good exercise for?

[@curlygrain4389]

@@LigmaballinJeff is short. Makes less muscle look better. He also films only in perfect lighting.

[@info1418]

Angles matter. I can't do "full ROM" on alot of shit because of old injuries, how my proportions are, etc. If its up to leaving an inch off the chest on incline or not being able to do it all since my shoulders are fucked up, its an easy pick.

[@00HoODBoy]

main difference is simply effort / intensity. those video examples werent all bad, they just didnt put enough weight on. you supposed to skirt the limits of good technique with as much weight as possible. biggest issue i see is being honest with oneself really

[@SeuOu]

I think that's a very fair take on all this. To me the purpose of 'technique' is to maximize stimulus while minimizing risk and fatigue. But all that means nothing if I'm not lifting heavy enough to actually challenge the muscle. That's the actual foundation, it has to be heavy enough to be challenging, the rest is just about optimizing the process for gains and recovery.

[@SLouiss]

I think full range of motion is better than lengthened partials, especially on pulling exercises, where it’s easier at the lengthened position.

[@dshaprin]

I would argue that pull exercises are the best candidates for lengthen partials for the exact same reason. You can get more reps, in the most hypertrophic part of the movement even as a finisher of a full ROM set.

[@MrCmon113]

@@dshaprin Amen. If you think that the stretched position is especially important, why tf would you only do reps till you can't pull your head over the bar anymore? That's way off any training that would challenge a muscle in the lengthened position. I know Dr Wolf would complain about such supersets having too little scientific basis, but my unscientific ass always does lengthened partial supersets now.

[@russianroadman]

I like most of Mike Israetel advice, but here are my modified rules so I don't stuck at 10lbs rows with perfect form: 1) focus on full rom only in stretched part 2) don't pick weight that is too low so i don't finish set from burning sensation rather than sheer muscle fatigue and being unable to produce more force 3) add tiny plates every workout because doing full rom you can unknowingly trick yourself into thinking that you did not perfect "current" weight yet

[@onerider808]

I’m turning 65 in May, and in the time since I was 15, I’ve tried about every technique/split/latest groovy thing. I don’t hope to find any magic secrets or gurus at this point, but do enjoy watching the various ‘experts’ go on as I recover. I’d rather watch youtube fitness nonsense than any mainstream media.

[@bass779]

Counterpoint; imagine how many people would avoid lifelong injury by focusing 80% of their effort on technique for their first year

[@drschwandi3687]

I'd say very few because lifelong injuries are super rare. Strength training is one of the safest sports you can do.

[@bass779]

@@drschwandi3687Is CrossFit included in your stats?

[@paavoilves5416]

I did but sadly that's exactly what got me injured. Too afraid to "break" my back on deadlifts so I was really strict with having a straight (but weak) back, then pulled something about a year in and slowly got back to lifting in like a month or something. Now my form is actually better because I know how to actually brace instead of just overextending my back. I'm also slightly more rounded but my back is STRONGER. A beginner WILL get injured at some point, especially if they're growing fast.

[@bass779]

@@drschwandi3687 Do you include CrossFit in your numbers on strength training?

[@letsgetbusychild]

​@@paavoilves5416So, you had bad technique and got hurt... That's his point.

[@LEGIONOFVAPES]

I’m 45, chases optimally as a younger dude. Now I’m all about enjoyment and progressive overload while being mindful of, “am I about to hurt myself”. Also the mental health benefits gained are immeasurable. Let’s keep it fun and functional

[@georgesarreas5509]

Im glad that the guys i follow dont have a problem standing up to reputable channels like rp. Its one thing to go after athlean x and v shred but this is actually so heartwarming!!

[@BradSchoenfailed]

“Reputable” lmao. Israetel has achieved nothing in bodybuilding and hasn’t coached anyone with any achievements either.

[@jahsiahhh]

@@BradSchoenfailed…

[@tomcoleman8753]

What is the original video titled from Schofield? Thanks!

[@christian_florez]

Serious question: Is there genuinely an epidemic of people who are trying to over-optimize things and staying small as a result? I just don't ever see any of these people anywhere in my gym. If there are tons of beginners dealing with analysis paralysis then sure, agree with most points in this video. But I just feel like most beginners are probably going to find someone like AthleanX way before they stumble across Dr. Mike.

[@gasoline1707]

I used to be like this, except I would just take Mark Rippetoe's word as gospel and barely progress. I probably would have made better gains listening to RP's advice, had he been around back then.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

Imagine being a newbie and following advice from AthleanX, I am already cringing.

[@StalinsGhost]

@@gasoline1707 Haha yep the old rippetoe's fatigue hole.

[@tribunaldude]

thats the whole point. They are not/should not be aiming this at serious lifters who are trying to "stand out in the gym" in a few years. They are aiming at regular/older people/40 year olds who want to lift for size over years while living a normal life/job/family/weekends/etc.This could also be a long term approach for long time serious lifters who are entering their twilight years and want to keep their gains/build new tissue while limiting joint damage.

[@FilmFlam-8008]

I think this is a bit of a pedantic view off the short TicToc videos vice the longer form KZbin videos that are quite in line with what you are saying. I can’t comment on what is actually in the TicToc videos because I am not a 30year old woman or 10 year old that watches tic toc

[@cloudysky82]

People new to the gym should really spend 2 weeks getting to know the machines and their initial load. I think Dr Mikes emphasis on technique and full rom, is to have everyone keep mindful of doing it. If doing high volume training, eccentrics can take a dive in how long to drop. Personally, I look at eccentics as being considerate of those around you, like try to "be quiet, dont drop the weights" kind of thing.

[@kuabarra]

I stopped watching RP a couple of months ago when he was criticizing some pro athlete’s, I think a footballer player, training. He was saying all the quick moving was a waste of time and to build muscle his training wasn’t optimal. It’s like he couldn’t comprehend training for something other than raw muscle size

[@Han-nk3io]

Dr Mike is the one who cant overhead press dude to his training😂

[@frankb5728]

I feel like Geoff is guilty of this.

[@drdoomgoat38]

​@@frankb5728GVS? How?

[@kuabarra]

@@frankb5728He is to some extent too