One Top Set, One Drop Set- Good Training?

[@darkmaterial95]

Mike woke up and chose violence against all of UK Bodybuilding

[@shrexyboi1850]

I'm here for it

[@tamenrayy]

😂

[@Goberserk999]

Jordan Peters about to reply to this video with a 1 hour video with Hans Zimmer in the background

[@Chaosdude341]

Steve Whole is a friend

[@Chaosdude341]

​@@Goberserk999 Jordan's awesome

[@wojtekimbier]

I like to utilize a top set in barbell exercises for some additional strength development when I'm training primarily for hypertrophy: do one top-set @85% of 1RM for 3-4 reps and then do the rest of my 2-4 sets in the "more practical for hypertrophy" range of 5-12 reps at 60-80% of 1RM.

[@benjaminmiller3075]

Came to say this.

[@19guyswithcutboxers23]

@@benjaminmiller3075 Same. When I can get 6 on the top two sets I up the weight.

[@joelkolenchuk4500]

I typically work up to a top set where 2 to 3 reps is almost definitely all that I will get. And then hit 75 to 80% of 1 RM for as many as possible for two sets. Usually that translates into 8 to 10 reps. I've known these as top set and "back off" sets. I do wonder if taking this sort of "powerbuilding" approach is worth doing, or if the time would be better spent doing a distinct bodybuilding phase and then a distinct powerlifting phase, back and forth. It's hard when you like aspects of both of these styles and don't want to stay away from either of them for too long. I'll have to comb through the videos now and see if he's done a, "is powerbuilding really worth it?" video. Or ask nicely for one. 😅

[@storm7617]

I've found pretty solid results doing this, and doing mixups with drop sets every few weeks as well.

[@rektagon1547]

Huge shout out to the RP team for offering such nuanced perspectives on these topics, always emphasizing that different people will benefit from different programs and strategies and there is no one rigth way to do things. I really really wish I understood this when I was starting out, I would've saved myself so much time.

[@deanmeanmachine85]

I've actually adapted this method for my own personal use. 3 total sets (2 top/heavy sets, then 1 backdown set). I've found it to be the best of both worlds. I'm getting more volume, I'm still hitting numbers, and keeping my frequency where I like it. In short, find what works for you.

[@RDS_Armwrestling]

I do this too

[@Purcyless]

Same but I do 2x heavy and 2x light with like 10-15% less

[@techussle7828]

I do 1 Top set 5-8, and 1 or 2 Downsets 8-12 rep range depending how I feel. This works well for me foe now

[@brca89851]

Yes! I love this type of information.I wish he would go over the "density" training like gironda 8x8

[@sabertoothwallaby2937]

What's there to dissect?

[@intersectedimplication]

Bananas

[@Zombies8MyPizza]

There's at least one recent study that shows that the "3/7 method" produces very good results. The 3/7 method is essentially a slightly modified version of Vince Gironda's methods, very much what you could refer to as "density" training. If you look at the amount of sets and reps done - 5 sets, 25 reps total, 15 secs rest between sets, 70% 1RM load - you could instead perform 5 sets of 5 irather than the 3/7 pattern. Still 25 reps total, 15 secs rest between sets, 70% 1RM load, a la Vince Gironda 5x5, and therefore get the same results i.e. it would work well based on the results of studies. Seeing how that would work, and how the parameters of 8x8 (~60% 1RM load, 8 reps per set) fall under what works for hypertrophy, it should in theory work. Not to mention some of the all time great physiques this type of training has built over the years (Larry Scott and Serge Nubret being the two most notable examples).

[@dustinfrank6129]

Its unbelievable that this content is being pumped out at no cost

[@YouTubeChillZone]

John Meadows used this technique in his training plans. For me it worked, but the plan was not to do it all in every workout, rather a few times over a 6 week cycle

[@flabio7074]

I’m a big fan of the mountain dog approach. It gave me great results and it’s a fun way to train

[@AndreaAustoni]

RIP!

[@vcorkleth]

John also preaches using 2-3 feeder sets around RPE 6-8 before doing the top set. You're still get stimulus as you're actually doing 3-4 sets between RPE 7-10 before the down/drop set(s) (John actually did drop sets). That's why I loved Mountain Dog training because John was able to find the similarities in both volume and high intensity approaches and utilized both techniques where they made sense.

[@YouTubeChillZone]

@@vcorkleth That's why I've been training with his system for three years now very well balanced plans despite being made for the masses.

[@nevinwhite2371]

Thanks for the insight

[@memeteam2016]

I actually love training like this. You get in there, warm-up, have 1 amazing set, and then go past failure on the drop set. It's quick and fun.

[@bobjenkins4925]

Yeah I've found this approach to be just about perfect. Basically like high intensity Dorian Yates style but with one extra hard set after the top set basically. If 'High Intensity' Training pushed two sets per exercise it would probably be the most popular style of training in the world by virtue of just how many people it would work for, (single set training leaves a bit on the table for a large chunk of the population).

[@Zombies8MyPizza]

I feel like it's getting a bad rep because, as Mike said in the video, people who make content about it aren't even doing a dropset, they're just doing a lighter set after the main set with rest inbetween. I too copied the Dorian Yates style "true muscular failure and beyond" style after reading his 1992 book, and it just works for getting bigger and stronger and it's so simple. Been my main method of training for about 10 years and likely always will be. For big barbell exercises where it's not practical, I just do a couple of rest-pause sets instead.

[@iang8169]

Zombies8mypizza yes if I'm using a selectorized machine ,ill always use drop sets but if not ,then ill do rest pause . I've found for me , I need to hit every muscle twice a week ,so if I only want to go to the gym 4 days a week and keep each workout to 60 min , you have to use this method otherwise the workouts would be approaching 2 hours

[@Zombies8MyPizza]

@@iang8169 Yeah I've always trained on upper/lower type splits, each muscle twice a week. 7 exercises per workout, takes me about 45 mins.

[@johntrains1317]

You're not lying. I been following this protocol for about 6 months now trying to experiment and tease out it's benefits and often find myself feeling like I can add 1/2 sets to a lot during my first 2/4 weeks of accumulating. So I do, then I drop back to the top set/back off set protocol for deloads. It just tends to be minimal work, designed maybe for beginner intermediate strength peeps? It's great, for what it is but definitely isn't the best at all times.

[@MegaBenjo88]

I do one top set 5-7 reps then a back off set 7-9. Works wonders!!!

[@JRT140]

The biggest progression I ever made, back in the 90's , was an Ironman magazine program where you did a top set for the first set of your main exercise and then two lighter sets. The progressive overload was maintained if you missed the main set my adding to the two lesser RIR sets

[@michaelhilbe2991]

Just means you could have been better

[@owy3215]

A long awaited video I didn't know I was waiting for!

[@SBavailablehandle]

This is what I needed. No more leaving when things just start to get hot and heavy.

[@fraserlupton-pike3632]

I recently started training like this due to exams being very soon as I can still meet my 10 set per muscle group each week whilst having more time to study at home as I am spending less time at the gym each day. I find it a massive contrast to my usual high volume training and I find myself executing all exercises better, still gaining strength and getting a good pump in a session half as long as I used to do. I do also incorporate mix of dropsets and antagonistic supersets to meet my training requirements.

[@fabriciooliveira3720]

one set to failure in the 6-8 rep range give me great results. going to failure is underated, everything else is junk volume, be aware that you need to warm up properly and dont need to train more than 30 minutes 3 times per week or you will go into overtraining. Mentzer was onto something and HIT is gaining more and more adepts. personally Im doing Push/Pull, Legs, Arms/Shoulders. one warmup set following by one top set in the 6-8 rep range till failure for each exercise, sometimes I cheat reps when the exercise allows it. Its incredible how much gains you get with just 90 minutes per week in the gym and 12-15 sets total. stop wasting time in the gym and focus on other important self improvements and not being tired all the time.

[@LucasGage]

What I've done lately is after warming up, I do two straight sets to failure for each body part 8-15 rep range, only doing two exercises for smaller muscles and three for back and legs, on a PPLPPL split. I use "Fitnotes" app, which is free, to get rid of the guess work to know what numbers to beat last week. Best progress I've made in regards to strength. I guess it's like a high-frequency Dorianesque, HIT program. Before I jumped on this system, I was doing your RPE volume training, which certainly added tissues during my bulk.

[@shrexyboi1850]

How did the dorianesque training go?

[@DARTH-KTULU]

For heavy compounds I like to do 3 sets at 85%x4-6, 75%x6-8, 65%x8-12 for week one then increase each lift by 5% each week so it’s 90%x4-6, 80%x6-8, 70%x8-12, for week 2, then the last week it’s 95%x4-6, 85%x6-8, 75%x8-12. Then I’ll do a deload week 70%x5 for 3 sets. I’ll add 5-10 lbs to my lift percentages and ramp back up. That way I’m going up in weight on the bar every month but also increasing the reps I do at each slight increase. After my compound lift, I’ll do 2 isolation moves, in straight sets, and try to add reps for the same cycle, then add 2.5 to 5 lbs when I hit the next wave. So say 100 lbs, week one 8 reps, week two 10 reps, week three 12 reps, week four I’ll switch it up and do 10 reps then 3 sets of myo reps AMRAP, Then add 5 lbs and start back at week 1. This is only on the iso movements.

[@tamenrayy]

I've been training like this for a little over two years now but lately I've been mixing in other principles again especially on compounds. I think it's almost a way for bodybuilders to train like powerlifters but sometimes it just gets stupid like trying to get PR's on side laterals and stuff. Jordan Peter's brought this to the masses and everybody ran with it. Lol love Jordan though I've learned a lot from him.

[@ryanrogers8211]

Where do you think he got it from?

[@SCW_Fitness]

@@ryanrogers8211 Dorian Yates , Dante Trudel and Scott Stevenson

[@ryanrogers8211]

@@SCW_Fitness yup 👍🏼

[@Philboh8]

Dear lawd why did the editor leave that sound in at 0:30 hahahahaha

[@DezDav4]

This was a great video on one top set, one down set. Can you talk about one top set, one drop set next? The idea is that the top set is focused on progressive overload, peak neural drive, and explosive power whereas the drop set is an actual drop set focused on high intensity metabolic stress (massive burn and pump).

[@Zombies8MyPizza]

Yeah, it's a shame that he mentioned the actual original meaning of it and then went off on a tangent about the "modern" version of it which isn't a dropset at all. I've always stuck the top set & drop set (as in actual dropset) method as a main for the last 10 years and it's effective as it gets, not to mention very simple - try to beat the log with the top set, then drop the weight by 30-40% and go for the pump. You've lifted heavy, you've got a massive pump, you've hit failure twice, you can't ask for anything more than that.

[@curlygrain4389]

Thank you for validating my training program lol I usually do 3-4 hard sets with a down set on the last (if I’m close to the end of a training cycle). If I’m only doing 2 sets then I go past failure

[@robbiasetti4678]

At the end of the day, there’s a massive list of people who’ve built a ton of muscle training this way …massive and you know it brah.

[@carter7894]

I feel for beginners wanting to recomp this is awesome. Sure for strength gains it’s useless but having a pr in both reps and weight has been so much fun for me. I’d love to hear some other newbies experiences with top set “drop” set. I personally do warm up to warm down. I feel it’s a better muscle stimulas and it’s a ton of sets

[@limitisillusion7]

I've been doing a full body split lately. It wasn't allowing me to dig into any particular muscle group, so I added a body part or movement pattern emphasis to each workout, cycling through them appropriately. I usually do one top set and one drop set of an isolation for the emphasized muscle group.

[@arclyte1859]

I was actually thinking of training with one Bourbon, one Scotch and one beer!

[@davorzdralo8000]

The cost is all the private information KZbin has on you, and the time you spend watching ads.

[@ImGroot1980]

It’s funny how over training, and laziness can be in the same thought. You did a great job explaining this.

[@miliyanaleksandrov]

Again the most informative short video explanation on top sets down sets!🙌🏼

[@miliyanaleksandrov]

And also is it good to do that for the different focus on muscle fibers?Instead of changing rep scheme every other meso or so?

[@davorzdralo8000]

I like combining proper drop set (not down set) as a second or third excercise. For example, I do 3 very hevy sets od leg press, and afer that I do leg extension with enough weigh to be 8-9 RPE at 12 reps, and then immediately drop to like half the weigh and try to do 12 more reps. My quads will already be dead after leg press, the one hard set of extensions will make them hurt, and the last 12 will make them feel like being stabbed with hot knives. It's not the muscular failure that stops me on this extremely light drop set, it's just pain. But by all gods, does it feel good afterwards. The muscle is murdered, you can barely walk, the pump is unreal, but recovery isnt that bad, probably because its actually quite a light weight.

[@markfyock7552]

This is a great topic thank you! Ian valliere always talks about how he trains like this and I always wondered if it was a good method

[@adamstrachn]

Two bodybuilders, one drop set...

[@shmurfy4971]

8:34 never realised how much Mike looks like buzz lightyear until now

[@intersectedimplication]

Real

[@TSC1]

Really great analogies here Dr. Mike!

[@flabio7074]

I do something similar for squat and bench but I prefer a semi-heavy over-warmup (like a top single at RPE 8) and then 3-6 down sets in the 8-12 range. Similar idea but hopefully more logical than the top/drop AMRAP.

[@RenaissancePeriodization]

That's a heavy potentiation set, and that's a totally good idea! - Dr. Mike

[@flabio7074]

@@RenaissancePeriodization thanks! Very cool of you to engage in the comments

[@intersectedimplication]

@@flabio7074 dream come true

[@LAskeHosting]

been training like that but like first set x (6-12 reps) second set lower weight (20-30 reps) but with 2-3 minute rest between those two sets so its not really the dropset... and its Jordan Peters full body training approach.... check it out, it is strange at first but when you get into it, you get pretty strong and big in no time...

[@WtbgoldBlogspot]

I don't understand the porn analogy, but I'm guessing you mean it's like reading the best verses from Matthew, Mark, Luke, AND John all in the same day. Gotta spread it out.

[@Ozk-nq9qr]

The fucking analogies he pulls out of no where (which im here for) 🤣🤣🤣🤣. Seems like Dr. Mike would have some very interesting stories to tell if the opportunity presented itself. One of the best sources of information plus a little comedy. 🙌🏽👑

[@GingerMeProductions]

Another excellent weekly sermon from Father Mike

[@mikey7278]

The idea is to do it HIT style. Top set should be to failure at around 8 reps. 'Down Set' is roughly 20% less weight, again taken to absolute technical failure, usually around the 15 to 20 rep mark. Go watch Wesley Vissers as he uses this approach

[@pauldavies7251]

And he's mediocre @classic 🤔 & has great genetics so he's a poor comparison

[@intersectedimplication]

This isn't HIT what are u sayign

[@matthewlong441]

Now this video has really got me thinking 🤔 at the start of a mesocycle I can see it being able to develop Week1: 1working 1drop Week2: 1working 1drop Week3: 2working 1drop Week3: 2working 1 back off Week4: 3working Week5: ect intill the end of the meso What would your thoughts be on that?

[@deanbell2337]

Good question

[@applepie7911]

I love this style psychologically. I’m tired as hell and out of the gym in an hour.

[@latsblaster]

I do something like this (top/down) every fourth week at the moment to save some time and have a less stressful week. The warm up doesn't have to take a lot of time if you go moderate with the intensity (%1rm).

[@alexyoffie6069]

My second is always my best set, even if I feel like I went hard on the first one. The second one is just easier, smoother, maybe even get one or two more reps

[@user-xw9lt1em3m]

In your final warm up set, try using your working weight/slightly higher than working weight for 2-4 reps

[@deanbell2337]

Me to

[@JoshBenware]

I think the whole point of top/back off sets is to go all out in a way that you have nothing left in a lower rep range (6-8 reps), then go all out in a more moderate rep range (10-20) since fast twitch muscles are fried. You're using top/back off in the context of your training style (leaving 2-3 in the tank each set). When you apply a different style of training, but you rig it up to your training style, of course it loses its value. Also, most people doing top/back off for 4-5 exercises are also using intensity techniques for the back off set, and are also doing bro splits. It's just a completely different method, so you can't honestly and fairly put it into the context of how you train, cause your theories only are effective in totality, just like their theories are only effective in the totality if their entire structure of training philosophy.

[@jwt-nu3ei]

I’m laughing thinking about some of the nut jobs in the British bodybuilding gyms I trained in being told they should do a second or third top set. Mike. Please, go and train with somebody like AJ Morris and then remake this video.

[@RenaissancePeriodization]

Josh, you used the plural of set her (sets). The video is about just ONE top set, ONE drop set. I do mention in the video that multiple top sets and perhaps multiple back off sets is a very effective way to train, but that one set of each as a method is unlikely to be optimal. I'll also say something that might come off a bit cocky but it's intended well: most of the folks you're talking about don't really have a comprehensive training philosophy. They like to train all the way to failure very heavy simply because it's cathartic, and then they rationalize their way around that practice, no matter if the balance of the evidence or even their own experience points another way. - Dr. Mike

[@RenaissancePeriodization]

@@jwt-nu3ei What do you think my remake of this video after training with him would look like? Do you think I could just rest a bit longer after a crazy heavy set to failure and still get another good set or a few in, or are these sets just so hard that you MUST drop the weight after? - Dr. Mike

[@JoshBenware]

@Renaissance Periodization I used the plural (sets) because it is more than one set- a top sets and a back off set, followed by the next exercise, and the next and so on. But, that's not to say that the method is applied across the board. It could be applied to certain exercises, then straight sets for others. Just like every exercise has its own rep range that's more "ideal", some exercises may do better with a different approach (one all out set, or one top set, one back off, or multiple back offs, or straight sets). As far as the people who use the philosophy that includes top/back off, what scientific study proves that it's a bad method in the totality of how they run their entire program? Anything can be skewed by misapplying the concept using the wrong overall program, and anything can look "optimal" when it's paired with an optimal program.

[@derekf9092]

Good video but I don't think I've ever personally really heard anyone use the term drop set when describing this style of training. It's usually "top set, back off set" which is the same as a down set.

[@b1uezer]

3 sets was beating me up and taking too long for the time I had. Went down to 2 sets and I'm growing better now than ever because my body isn't absolutely blasted. I haven't even needed a deload every 3 weeks like I was taking (and I /had/ to take it); now I recover so well I haven't needed one in a couple months.

[@vkersh4301]

The switch from 3 to 2 sets helped me a lot, too. I use rest-pause for my 2nd set. I take a 20-30 second rest. It stimulates my muscles without beating up my connective tissues and joints. That's how I've avoided having to use deload weeks.

[@jason2014]

Why not just take a regular rest..? Do your joints really get beat up from that extra volume of ~5 more reps?

[@vkersh4301]

@Jason cumulatively over all compound lifts throughout the week I notice a difference. Everyone is different as far as genetics and experience as to what is going to give them stimulus and fatigue.

[@b1uezer]

@@jason2014 My joints are actually fantastic, it's just straight up systemic fatigue. I'm going 6 out of 7 days a week doing legs/chest and back/arms alternating days, hits everything twice a week. But, my muscles just get tired and I feel exhausted by the end of that 3rd week. The standard 3 sets was just too much for me and I thought I was just weak or something, but 2 sets of what I'm doing makes basically the same progress, if not more, because I'm not torched and recover by the next workout.

[@calebevans7408]

I always called my set after my top set my "backoff". Example: top heavy set of 3 Back off all out heavy set of 6 2-3 sets of 8-10

[@michaelthomas1916]

I'll do a top set\back off set or two the last few weeks of a strength cycle during the peak to doing maxes. The weeks before that, it'll be 3 or two heavy sets maybe with a AMRAP light set if I missed my reps on the main sets, and don't feel it was from fatigue.

[@aviccilostboy1755]

I did NOT KNOW this was even a thing BUT i find myself doing this when im trying to cut weight. But i warm up then do my top set plus 2 down sets where i typically cant do as many reps or have to drop weight both times. Or i will go close to failure for 6 reps with heaviest weight then drop 20% and go close to failure but tenish reps then drop more weight and try to do last set with min 12 clean reps for a massive pump so bad i can barely lift my water bottle if it was Biceps.

[@kevingoodwin9204]

For the most part I do two warm up sets and three working sets followed by a drop set for each exercise. I recently started doing four working sets instead of three and have been liking that more.

[@georgioskyritsis9884]

Dear Dr. Mike. Can you do a video about Hany Rambod and his method/approach?

[@SomethingWylde]

I think you left out some really essential features to this style of set up. 1. Is log book progression or trying to beat last sessions training by adding load and or reps. 2. Two different rep ranges gives you the opportunity to chase 2 different PRs in a session. 3. The volume per exercise may be low, but the overall volume of the session isn’t because you’re doing 2 sets across multiple exercises. 4. More exercises reduces the change of overuse injury 5. Limiting sets per exercise reduces residual fatigue that could carry over into the later parts of the session since many of those exercises use muscle mass that overlaps with previous exercises. 6. I REALLY doubt the liters who use this system with an emphasis on log book progression are “too lazy” to do higher volume training. If anything, higher volume sessions are more likely to have people just mailing in sets than people who are chasing PRs every set.

[@Mtss932]

Papi thank you for all these free info

[@chaserevstuning9271]

I am on a strength phase, as soon as I get to 6 reps I'll add 5lbs next time. Specifically bench I do 5 sets of 4-6, all the same weight. I'm fine with failing short a few reps when I was building muscle, I only do drop sets for weekly volume if am going on Vacation or etc. Try to keep my weekly volume roughly the same

[@IamDannyM]

Scott the cameraman. Can we get a montage of all Dr Mikes analogies please 🙏🏻

[@samedge9496]

This

[@viksenpai1]

I'm really confused by the fact that there is A TON of people who claim that they got insanely better results when they switched from the standard bodybuilding paradigms where volume is king to the Jones/Mentzer/Yates "high-intensity" style of training where you train in the fashion described here, with the caveat that YOU GO ALL F***ING OUT on your top set. We're talking negative RIR here... And then you don't train this muscle group for a week or so. I've seen and read enough of RP to consider all of this BS, but the ammount of anecdotal "evidence" is just enough so that it keeps this an open question in my mind. After all, the idea of training two times per week and still having the best results ever in your life is quite attractive. :D What's your take on this Mike/RP?

[@ryanrogers8211]

If it has worked for a lot of very big and very strong guys it is certainly not a BS training method. My advice would be to try it for yourself exactly how Dante Trudell or JP prescribe and give it a good 3-6 months and see how you progress with it. If you're one of the guys who can make gains from both styles of training then go back and forth once each style gets stale.

[@s.n9586]

A factor may be that they get to train the skill of going to or close to failure with this training method and we all know that the majority of people doesnt know how to train to true failure. As well as learning the skill on how to put 100% focus into your sets as it is easier to put focus on two sets rather than 3-4 sets for hypertrophy, mainly the controlled full ROM reps and MMC and a less spread out focus on focus. A lot of people are caught up on fixed number of reps, where the focus should perhaps be on the fixed number of sets instead. Take the RP team for example. They often train 3-4 sets of reps BETWEEN 5-15. If you complete the first set doing 12 reps with proper intensity and full ROM, you most likely wont be able to do 12 reps the second set with the same weight. However, the stimulus is still as great if you fail on i.e 9 reps on the second set. As well as the majority actually recovering better when switching to top set down set, as most likely the volume is lowered. That being said, what i believe Dr. Mike implies is that if you apply the variables of recoverable volume, PROPER repetitions and intensity, then the method of doing 2 excercises with these variables are more resource effective, mostly time, joints etc. It all comes down to training to or close failure being the main driving factor that makes people get such great results of this. Myself included.

[@sungameloc]

I think a lot of people can't accurately measure their RIR. A lot of the guys that claim they made better gains when switching to HIT is just because they're now actually training hard and getting a proper stimulus. 🤷‍♂️

[@viksenpai1]

All fair points, I do agree it's probably a mix of actually training hard for the first time and unintentionally hitting proper metrics for volume, recovery, etc. And the fact that people still get results with a 1-day per week per body part approach is not surprising, since it's simply more ineffective, but not impossible to so so.

[@toemass202]

Totally agree. Multiple straight sets are king for mass. Though if the athlete is inclined to follow a strength and hypertrophy meso, it makes sense to use a top set (3-6) and drop set (8-30).

[@diogoazevedo9588]

Dr Mike, can you please do a review on Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty training method? It has some similarities to the critics you did on this video

[@JackOfHearts42]

I do 1 top set in the 3-5 rep range, 2 down sets in the 8-12 rep range. I take mostly all sets to an RPE of 9. Is this a reasonable method for just recreational fitness?

[@edyncrowley2894]

Yay Mike has new video!!!

[@mikeCD62]

This is similar to how i used to train. For bench, I'd warm up, then might do 2 heavy working sets at like 275 for 5. For my 3rd working set I'd drop the weight to 225 and hit failure, then without rest drop it to 185 and hit failure, then wothout rest drop to 135 and hit failure again. I was under the impression that "drop set" referred to my 3rd set, but it looks like my terminology may have been wrong.

[@SickplayaM]

Mike is talking about a down set. You are talking about a drop set.

[@spurzo-thespiralspacewolf8916]

What about doing a rest pause/drop set hybrid? For example, 200 x 12 then drop down 10% rest 15 seconds do a set with 180 probably get 6 effective reps.

[@bryanhunt4413]

I swear by drop sets. I’ve used this method almost exclusively for many years now, not because I’m lazy, but because I’m addicted to the pump it gives me. I don’t stop at just one working set though. I like to do a couple warm up sets and then I do 2-3 working drop sets. I usually don’t do more than two exercises per body part because I’m absolutely fried by the time I’m done. When done properly and with proper form, this training style is crazy stimulating and fatiguing.

[@AndyXDesigner]

Been doing exactly the same for the last 10 - 12 months, but I'm here looking for ways to my workouts even more efficient. Thinking about adding some volume, something like 12 - 15 reps / set (without any drop/down-sets), 3 - 4 sets / exercise and 3 exercises / big body part (chest, quads, back).

[@AndyXDesigner]

I just think the drop/down-sets fry me out so much, that I'm unable to add a 3rd / 4th set or maybe even a 3rd exercise / body part. Yes, it feels great and I know I left everything in the gym, but I'm just thinking that maybe going for a 3rd /4th hard set, instead of the 2 drop/down-sets, would work better. (Modified) Mike Mentzer VS Dr. Mike styles. LOL. I'll just give it a try and see what works best for me.

[@AndyXDesigner]

For the record, at the moment, I'm usually doing 7 - 9 hard and controlled reps for the heavy set and then 4 - 6 more for the drop/down-set, while I drop 30% - 40% of the weight. Worked fine for these months, but lately I found myself plateuing.

[@apeinto5637]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:12 📜 The myth discussed is doing one top set followed by one drop set in training, typically with a 10-30% reduction in load. 01:22 ⚖️ While this training method might offer a good stimulus-to-fatigue ratio, it's often misunderstood. Many on social media are confusing drop sets with down sets. 02:29 ❓ A key issue is the arbitrary limitation to one top set. Multiple high-quality sets can be achieved using the same or similar load. 03:37 🔄 There's a challenge in selecting the right number of exercises for a muscle group. Using too many might lead to unnecessary warm-ups, gym movement, and exhaustion of variation. 07:05 💏 The analogy given is cutting short a promising date; one shouldn't end an effective exercise routine prematurely when further beneficial sets can be done. 08:58 🏀 It's not enough to just love the highlight moments of a sport or career; you must embrace the grind and challenges as well. 10:07 🏋️ Many prefer short and varied training methods due to laziness or wanting to avoid grind, but it isn't always the most effective. 10:49 🤔 Be skeptical of copying the exact training methods of pros without understanding the reasons behind their choices. 12:27 💡 Training considerations include monitoring rep range, assessing fatigue, and managing muscle soreness. 14:19 📈 Most effective training usually involves 2-5 sets per exercise; diversifying exercises is also crucial for long-term benefits. Made with HARPA AI

[@nevinwhite2371]

I find a top and down set approach works good for pull/chin ups. Especially in higher rep ranges.

[@Tony-uc8mg]

Mike doesn't do a push up, Mike pushes the world down!

[@awanderingman]

I always called these "back off" sets, doing a top set and then taking 10-20% off for 3-5 sets of 8-12 reps. Sounds like that's a little suboptimal.

[@DipankarGhosh007]

I limit number of exercises for a mesocycle, during which i play around with sets, reps, intensity and frequency. After that mesocycle i chose different exercises and repeat it

[@ryancaputo1671]

how about ramping sets of 3 reps to a top set with a down set at 40% reduction

[@AndusDominae]

My shooting for optimum is doing what keeps me obsessed with lifting. I don't think I've ever done one top one down set though, seems like a waste of good lifting time. Definitely a top weight, down weight, down-down weight, but more like a whole series of sets at each... neural overdrive, classic hypertrophy rep range, low end endurance, but mostly just what I find feels good and keeps my ADHD from focussing on passing squirrels. 🤣

[@burntgod7165]

I do two sets. First set 6 to 9 reps to failure; set 2, drop weight around 10%, 9 to 12 reps to failure. Two minutrs rest between sets. But if i get 10 or more reps on set 1, I will keep the same weight for set 2; I'll probably get 7, 8, maybe 9.

[@troetenvirtuose9103]

The ending was just so good

[@joojotin]

first set is always the best set, I dont know how it could be any other way. Maybe if you dont train to failure? Dont know, I only train to failure.

[@jaxypassionblocks]

mike stands with the people of Peru 🇵🇪

[@hnshnsi6931]

Ive seen some of your videos where you talk about optimal rep ranges and weights to get the most hypertrophy. Any set at 30% 1RM done to failure, or any set that is a 5 rep max, will produce the same results. Also the last 5 reps being the most stimulatory in any set, and the first reps of a long set (like the first 10 reps of a 25 rep set), do hardly anything at all. If the above is correct, why is the conclusion then not to do a lot of dropsets, especially on exercises that dont tax the nervous system that much? It seems to me that the best way to train biceps for example, would be to do 5 reps to failure, drop the weight some 20-30%, again 5 reps to failure, drop the weight 20-30% again, and at this point i find im so weak that i fall outside the 30% 1RM window, and end the set. Training like this, according to your research, would let me do a 15 rep set where every single rep is maximally stimulating, and should be far superior to anything i could possibly do with just regular sets, right?

[@shmurfy4971]

Wouldn’t those be myoreps? Assuming you aren’t resting long inbetween dropping the weight. They’re probably just as effective as straight sets for hypertrophy but are more taxing on the nervous system. It would seem that they’re not since the weight is lowered but since you’re constantly on the verge of failure they are.

[@eagle5501]

Completely agree. Andrey Malanichev says a minimum of 6 sets for squats. Platz quotes 8-10 sets of squats. Must be some truth to volume and sets.

[@OhDevBeard]

Dr Mike - could this be effective if you were strapped for time? Also would you position change if it was one activation set with myo-reps to absolute failure?

[@LN-lr4rg]

I thought top set back off set was to incorporate neuro adaptation and kind of forego a strength phase? like the top set is 3-5, and that 3-5 eventually becomes your straight set as your cns gets used to it?

[@SCW_Fitness]

1 top set and 1 back off set was the only training method where I made noticeable progress. I find that I am able to progress performance much more efficiently with that kind of approach when compared to what I was doing with my RP programme. With a load and back off set I would progress almost every single set in every single session. When I added additional sets to an exercise, I was not be progressing all of them. I have since moved towards John Meadows Mountain Dog training system as I want to keep competing for a long time, so have looked at ways to increase my longevity. Sadly for me, my physique regressed when following a 5 day RP plan. Although, I was very impressed by the spreadsheet and do think it would likely be effective for some people.

[@herrar6595]

I did 3 top sets ~10 reps 0 RIR on Monday, heavy campus board session on Wednesday (12 plyo sets w 3+ minutes rest in between) and my traps and romboids still are not recovered, it's Saturday

[@RJB_TV]

dear beat master mike. I do 1 low warm up, 1 mid warm up, then 1 high set and 2 top sets. is this a viable methodology?

[@MrModguru]

The 2 hard sets work great for strength athletes. Energy is finite and if you’re pouring into 4, 5 or however many sets than you’re sandbagging the first couple. Get the stress to adapt then exit.

[@JazzCultivation]

That about the 2 or 3 set feeling better is the reason im not dialing well the Mentzer method.

[@crappygamer4927]

is this like madcow 5x5....in the "heavy day" you work up to a top set of 3 reps then back off and do a set of 8

[@ryanrogers8211]

Why, becuase Dante Trudell wrote the DoggCrapp method using this technique

[@ryanlee6291]

Spot on with this one

[@kdarr12]

I you have helped me so much! And I have two degrees in exercise science. But I am so confused on the drop set vs down set. The way it’s worded “unless you don’t rest”. Might have to break out the logic textbook from college😂still love you Dr Mike ❤

[@finestjellybeansrawlol9486]

A drop set is a single set where you lower the weight once you reach failure. If you're resting between the weight drop, it's just a downset

[@kdarr12]

@@finestjellybeansrawlol9486 ok thank you! The wording rippers tripped me up

[@krulidn]

So many suggested warm-ups... is it just because I'm more beginner/intermediate that when switching between exercises for the same muscle group or related groups that 1, 2 at absolute max seems like more than enough?

[@KM____________]

I'd love to know if you have recommendations for books with muscle diagrams etc. I'd really like a physical book with layouts of all the muscles since my gym doesnt have posters like that.

[@NieLL1]

Great video. I wonder if I'm overdoing. Lately I've been doing a 3x5 as a top set for the bench, then 3x10 back-off sets

[@TOShorts]

If you're doing any other chest movements in that session you may be overdoing it.

[@cantbetouched1961]

Thank u for the truth mike 🙏

[@anonperson3972]

Last night I did overhead press. I did three top sets on overhead press. Then I dropped and did higher reps untill failure. Dropped again and repeated untill I couldn't lift the bar.

[@McBuffenFitnessReal]

Lol only one top set? Never seen anyone do 1 top set but maybe 2 at best that I've seen at the gym. Great topic and video, Dr. Mike . GAINZ 👊🏼💪🏼💯

[@josephdeveau3584]

This is a valid way of training if you're busy and need to get in and out quickly -- assuming the goal is to be pretty jacked and strong, not optimally or maximally jacked...which I guess is not what the RP crew is about.

[@icebreaker554]

My friend convinced me of something that I'm not 100% sure about. he said that you can transfer manliness between people for extra gains. He has transfered his manliness into me several times now but I'm not getting any stronger... any substance behind this claim??

[@RDS_Armwrestling]

Not watched the full video yet, but ironically this technique worked wonders for me lol, I do usually do down sets as opposed to dropsets but man dropsets after your heaviest set are great. I also do cluster sets on some heavy exercises as well. So basically you get 2 or 3 sets where you can go to failure and beyond and then move on, rather than slogging out 4+ sets per exercise and getting more tired and taking away from your later exercises.

[@blairmonkman7507]

Wouldn't doing 2-3 sets to failure and beyond be just as fatiguing as 4 straight sets to failure with the same weight?

[@RDS_Armwrestling]

@Blair Monkman not necessarily because doing a dropset uses less weight, and if I do a cluster set it's often only for one top set if you know what I mean.

[@Thebeastkiller13]

Honest question . What do you do once you’ve maxed out pretty much any machine at your gym? How do you further stimulate your muscles if even at your top (dumbbell bench press for example ) set you’re repping the highest weights for at least 20 reps . I’ve added way more volume already and what I started implementing is obliterate my compound movements before hand to pre fatigue the muscle .. is this correct ?

[@intersectedimplication]

Banana

[@intersectedimplication]

acutally it's hard to track but maybe slower eccentrics,better mmc,better Cadence

[@chrischairamonte1064]

I think I watch these for the humor

[@jackjohnson4701]

this is basically the way top pro bb have trained since the late 90's and now it's most all of them that do this

[@gunsnposes.363]

i just like to get out when things are going really well LMAO