REWATCH: Star Wars Episode VIII The Last Jedi - The Sith Council:

[@Spideymrw]

I loved this video. I'm not a fan of the movie but hearing completely opposing sides with no yelling or name calling was so refreshing.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you! Yeah there was some angry person in the comments who thought this was a toxic conversation, clearly that person hasn't seen some of the vitriol out there!

[@brandonherbin7989]

Yes!!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

@@eliezerrodriguez5863 Nah

[@jackdunn486]

Regardless of the fact that I don't agree with a lot of what was said, I LOVE how you guys have really established a platform for healthy and respectful discussion. Going out of your way to include a positive voice to promote debate on both sides is fantastic. After quickly scrolling through the comments you guys have clearly attracted the people who actually want to convey their opinions in a healthy way, which is NO small feat on KZbin today, especially when discussing the Last Jedi of all things! Keep spreading the love guys!! XD

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you Jack! Yes that was the goal. We wanted to create and to prove that it is possible to disagree with one another and not attack each other in the process!

[@RaikenXion]

I ALWAYS had constructive criticism for this movie, i (along with many others) just got our voices completely drowned out by all the arguing and fighting.

[@TheMasonAguilar]

this review could’ve been 3 hours long and i would’ve enjoyed every minute. forgot how much i miss riley

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you!

[@iamgroot2654]

I am so glad Riley is here for this rewatch. I know how much he loves The Last Jedi and it has a special place in my heart. So many fun and special moments especially when Rey and Kylo take out Snoke’s guards.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Yup! That is why we wanted him on, didn't want the whole ep to be a pile on.

[@metallicnole4514]

I compare the throneroom fight scene to the warehouse fight in BvS. Both TLJ and BvS are highly divisive films. But everyone can agree their respective action scenes are pretty great.

[@trevorthornley8835]

@@metallicnole4514 the choreography in the warehouse fight was amazing. Tlj fight....nope. you can see in frame a guard throw away a spear to get stabbed by Kylo Ren. They're guys in the background fighting nothing, disappearing daggers, Rey kicking 3 guys down with one kick, and twirling at the wrong times. That scene is horrible too.

[@Progger11]

Thank you SO much for featuring both pro- and anti-TLJ perspectives on this episode. I was worried it would just be a pile-on, but you respected us fans of the movie by having Reilly on. I wish the disagreements over this movie were handled by adults online more often. I'm so sick of the, frankly, bully-like rhetoric that gets thrown around on both sides of this online--even by professional KZbinrs with big channels who should be much more mature about it! This was a breath of fresh air. After hearing the reasonable criticisms of this movie over the years, I will say this: I think this is a great movie on its own terms. I think it's a bad movie for connecting this trilogy. I think if Rian Johnson had been asked to START the trilogy, the whole thing would have gone a lot better. It was a mistake having Abrams tee him up with a derivative Star Wars movie and then expect his more shake-up style be a smooth continuation.

[@CinematicGalaxy]

As someone who overall isn't a fan of TLJ, I totally agree. When I saw the film my 2nd time, I was riding the hype and felt it was my favorite SW movie for a time...and the amount of mocking comments I got online from people who hated the movie was absolutely asinine. The whole experience and back-and-forth between both sides really put me off the Star Wars fandom until Mandalorian.

[@Progger11]

@@CinematicGalaxy Oh, absolutely. And something I will say is that, despite me liking this movie, I 100% think that the "Filoniverse" stuff is much more in line with what we all expected to see when we first heard we were getting more Star Wars on screen. And I do think that it will do a better job filling in the gaps, smoothing over the wrinkles made by the severely flawed ST, and it's 100% what I prefer to watch over anything in the ST. I hope Filoni and Favreau can right this ship and bring the fandom back together. I like flawed, broken Luke, but I LOVED Luke in his prime from The Mandalorian.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

That was absolutely the point of these. We didn't want to pile on and we wanted to prove that you can have civil conversation.

[@TheElmatador32]

Even though in general I feel as if TLJ is a bad movie made for an audience of one, I gotta say the OP really opened my eyes to a new POV. Very well put and bravo!

[@lachyolm8566]

I remember loving the Last Jedi in the theater then getting home and checking the online reactions and being totally confused... Loved it, loved old man Luke, thought the throne room scene was one of the best in any Star Wars movie

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Hey fair enough!

[@Roboboy1277]

This was me too. After seeing some of the hate I went back to rewatch and found I loved it more.

[@GeeVanderplas]

I was the same. Came out of there thinking, now we're getting somewhere! The backlash totally caught me off guard. On rewatch I can concede certain criticisms, but overall it's still the best of the sequels for me.

[@djbkb25]

Riley was out here PREACHING! his Luke take was spot on, exactly how I see Last Jedi as well.

[@c-3po.concepts567]

Yo, thanks for having fun with this. The internet should take notes. The film fan in me loves this one, the Star Wars fan part of me, loves 75% of it. I loved 100% of your conversation. I did want to mention that I think Johnson was very inspired by Kurosawa. This movie unapologetically takes it’s structure from “Rashomon” just as much as “Star Wars” took inspiration from “The Hidden Fortress”. The confrontation between Kylo and Luke to me is as much of a samurai film moment, as The Mandalorian is a western. I hope Johnson gets the direct and episode of Star Wars TV.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Yeah I can see where Johnson tried to take those things, just missed for me.

[@alexporto6615]

Excellent conversation. I don't like the movie, but I loved hearing Mark's thoughts. We can clearly see his love for it, and that is wonderful.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Agreed

[@LukeTG1_TTV]

For me Luke's story is an allegory for depression. At the time of this movie, I was depressed. Luke was reminded he has worth, reminded who he cared about and who cares about him. Like in the scene with R2, you see the light in Luke's eyes. He's also self sabotaging, he knows he needs to help and convinces himself he can't because of his lack of self worth. When he says "because I was Luke Skywalker" he felt the pressure of being relied on and living upto everyones expectations. Then on Crait, when he speaks to Leia, he finds himself again. Reconnecting with the force he finds his purpose. He's reminded why he has self worth. He broke free of his depression, like I did. And while I understand the criticisms from Star Wars fans. As a movie fan, this will always be an important movie to me.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

I respect this take very much.

[@LukeTG1_TTV]

@@TheKristianHarloff Appreciate that. One thing we all agree on, no one needs to watch the Canto Bight scene ;)

[@anakincrespin]

Luke's arc in this movie was so relatable to me as well. I used to be Luke in Empire and Return of the Jedi but now so many years later there are times when I'm just Luke on that Island and it's a really difficult thing to deal with. Love this movie.

[@LukeTG1_TTV]

@@anakincrespin Yeah, remember to keep your mind on crait! :D The force is with you

[@LukeTG1_TTV]

@@CorbCorbin You see the Holdo thing in Rise above Endor.

[@thedorkydoodlesden]

Cool discussion. Last Jedi is actually in my top 3 Star Wars movies. Gone up over time.

[@danwhite9184]

I personally think the scene in TROS where Luke lifts the x wing plane from the water as a callback to Empire would have been more powerful if it happened in TLJ after his talk with Yoda and he decides to leave the island to join the fight.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Agreed

[@andrewbarnett152]

The X-wing isn't shown as a hint that either Rey or Luke are going to lift it out of the water. It's shown to make clear to the audience that Luke is completely marooned and has no means of escaping the island. That's how a casual viewer rather than a deep-cut fan who knows the lore would interpret it. That's why the door on Luke's hut is made out of scavenged parts of the X-wing. TROS went and retconned all of this for the sake of providing a fan moment, but whether or not that was right is a whole different conversation.

[@iansmart4158]

But Jedi are not soldiers. The Clone Wars turned them into political tools of destruction which is why they were corrupted (because they already heading towards being far to militaristic with political influence). The choice to Make Luke a Decoy instead of a weapon is one of the BIGGEST THEMES OF THE ENTIRE MOVIE! Guys, it's one thing to not enjoy something, but we really gotta have a chat about being able to engage with a film's choices. Asking why something happened instead of being upset it didn't happen differently!

[@robertrhodes5816]

I love the geninue conversation between all of of guys and gal, even if I lean more towards Riley perspective on Last Jedi. I learned a lot just listening to new opinions on the movie. I am 💯 with you on The Book of Boba Fett, I was interested in the character personally until that trailer dropped and now I'm sold. Keep up the amazing work and conversations, enjoying the guess you have had on so far.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you!

[@starwarsrevealed2046]

This was a great video. Please get Reiley back for TROS. His passion and the clear and concise way he gets across why certain scenes or themes works was brilliant. Certainly made me want to give TLJ another chance...

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you for listening!

[@colinvandenberg3446]

I was disappointed at first that it was Reilly and not someone like Michael Vogel who I could trust to passionately defend every aspect of this movie. But after watching this, I realize that yet another heated TLJ debate just isn't what we need right now. Thanks for a wonderful discussion.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you, yeah that isn't the point of this rewatch series. We don't want to debate, just discuss.

[@QuiGeorgeJim]

Sith Council - This is one of my all time favorite Episodes Having Master Yodi and Darth Harloff and Darth Sabraw really covered The Last Jedi with an "opened mind" i have accepted that there are certain Scenes that were pretty good and some just plain sucked! Thank You All! " May The Force Be With Us All"

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you my friend! Happy that people in comments were able to act so civil in this episode.

[@bigjsquare1988]

I've been rewatching the movies and tuning into all the discussions and I have to say this was my favorite of all the discussions. Listening to the different points of view and the conversations that sprang up was super fascinating. These rewatches have been great Kristian. Can't wait to catch up on my list of things to watch so I can finally watch the Spiderman rewatches!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you and then Matrix coming next!

[@zekesaidsopictures]

The Last Jedi is my second favorite Star Wars movie. I love Luke Skywalker's portrayal, Rey/Kylo, and Poe's overall arc. I hate Canto Bight and Poe's Mutiny scene. Poe's arc is great until the Mutiny starts. I respect the various opinions given by the panelists, it gets me excited about Star Wars again!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Glad you dug it

[@theodorehumphreys907]

Great Discussion. Love Mark Reilly on the show. Have him back soon.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Need to!

[@OLDTIME47]

Best last several weeks having these shows!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you!

[@MonolithEnigma]

Looking back It seemed to me at the time that the higher ups at Disney really wanted to find ways to work the OT cast out as soon as they could so they could start fresh and have a clean slate. In my opinion they should have done 3 movies with Luke Leia and Han as the main characters and Rey Find and Poe as secondaries, and then hand it over to them at the end. Then do another trilogy with them as the leads.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Yeah they didn't give the OT cast enough to do.

[@abbybrace2756]

Kristian I just watched the Collider Last Jedi Spoiler Review and then jumped to this. You, Perri, Ken and Mark were so upbeat and positive straight out of seeing it! What happened!?!? It was literally the happiest I'd seen you then over tine the backlash seems to have worn you down. You should rematch the Spoiler Review and see how much you enjoyed it!

[@jdashy23]

Thanks for continuing to do this. I’m a big fan of Star Wars and I find enjoyment within all 9 films. The only thing I would disagree with is the sequel trilogy feels much more like the original trilogy and “Star Wars” then the prequels imo. (I do love them all just to reiterate) Thanks again!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Fair enough! The series feels more that way to me IMO but thank you for sharing your thoughts!

[@justindza]

Good discussion. All the sequel movies do not hold up on rewatches for me.

[@kins1894]

Man I loved this review, a fun discussion with ppl actually respectfully disagreeing. That was awesome

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you!

[@JustinLatham]

I’m glad Riley was on to speak up for us that love this movie. I enjoyed all the risks that the movie took, and the moment when the ship goes through the bigger ship is one of my favorite moments in movies ever.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you for sharing it!

[@LP3Customs]

This was really entertaining. So interesting to hear Reilly practically loved everything you didn't. And I got a lot of good laughs out of this

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you!

[@doomraven0]

Another great video. I absolutely love TLJ and a lot of that because i love Rian Johnson in general. However, i completely understand why people don't like it.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you Atlas!

[@pasherik]

Absolutely agree. Luke dying was the lowest part for me as a fan. I think I would have liked the film better had he survived and was the Luke we all know and love in IX.

[@gangang69]

Luke didn't die tho he became one with the force

[@urbanexcursion]

We may not be able to agree on The Last Jedi, but I think we can all agree this was the best discussion in the Star Wars REWATCH series. The compare and contrast dynamics among Harloff, Steph and Reilly made this video very enjoyable to watch. Thank you!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you for checking it out!!

[@tomt5482]

On Luke throwing the saber - I felt if that moment had taken another 30-60 seconds, shown a flashback to some traumatic moment in Lukes past with a close up of his hand (The one Vader cut off while holding it in the first place!!) holding the saber shakily, before either slowly handing it back or dropping it in a sort of PTSD way.....it could of been amazing. Add in an amazing John Williams score on top and all of a sudden you have emotional gravitas. What we got was a SNL skit.

[@chrisolivo6591]

That’s actually a good point as I wonder if the scene is different as they show Luke getting his hand cut off and being electrocuted by the Emperor. That’s the memory of that Lightsaber.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Exactly.

[@iansmart4158]

But why must we be so literal? We are thinking beings, we can assume that Luke has forsaken that saber long ago. Any feelings towards it as source of trama has probably long faded. The same way Yoda doesn't break down and cry and think of all those slaughtered Younglings when he sees another Skywalker turn up in his swamp and ask to be mentored. They've gone into exile to remove themselves from that pain. And with enough time, it doesn't have to mean as much. Honestly, him tossing it without a second thought says more about how TRULY DONE he is with the entire Jedi way of life than any flashback could. It's like getting over a breakup. If you're still angry about it, you obviously still love them. But the moment you can see them hugged up on Instagram with their new Beux and feel nothing is when you're truly over it. Same goes for Luke (at that's how I took it).

[@tomt5482]

@@iansmart4158 I'm not sure I could equate learning you have a father to learning he is Darth Vader to redeeming him and losing him in your arms within a few short years to the same as a break-up with a girlfriend. My comment regarding the flashback was aimed at using that moment to gain a glimpse into the mind of a character we had not seen since 1983 (not counting his 10 silent seconds in TFA). That moment has to work on its own and as part of a story. Heaps of people were introduced to SW during the ST run so you can't assume they know his character like die hard fans do. It was an opportunity to set the tone of the movie, instead it felt like a throw away (pun intended) moment that many people laughed at, myself included. Perhaps you didn't respond in that way but I and many others did so it obviously didn't land the way it should of and other memorable moments in SW have. From a story telling / directing point of view that moment was important yet squandered. The Canto Bight sequence had so much time and money poured into it and it was pointless and cringe, it did very little to progress the story. Kristian has mentioned it felt like Harry Potter and I agree, it was random and out of place. My biggest frustration with TLJ was how inconsistent it was, how pointless some of the scenes were and the decision making of certain characters was idiotic. I could totally get behind Luke isolating himself, being disillusioned by the Jedi....all of that but what I'm saying is sell me on it, make me understand why Luke did what he did whether or not I agree with it. I'm ok with him dying if it serves the story but overall it hurt his character unnecessarily imo. I'm obviously a Luke fan and tbh I liked the final projection scene, the twist....I liked parts of the throne scene (was hoping for a better sell by Kylo to Rey)....many moments within the movie. Unfortunately, it seemed like Rian so was obsessed with subverting expectations he played that card for the sake of playing it too many times. In the end it was a tiring miserable movie.

[@Fenris30]

@@chrisolivo6591 He wasn't holding any Lightsabers when he was getting zapped.

[@colourjerry]

This is one of my favorite episodes of sith council. Love the conversation, more Mark Reily on sith council, please

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you and will definitely have him back!

[@justyouraveragejoe8368]

Kristian your Rocky V analogy is spot on. There still wouldve been certain beats that bothered me about the film (Flying Leia, Canto Bight, etc) but that ending scene when hes in the cave with them after he kisses Leia and starts to walk out. With John Williams' Score beginning to thump and get louder as hes walking out. I wanted to see him Force Crush a Walker. I wanted to see the Luke we NEVER SEEN (until Mando Finale) If that happens, my outlook on TLJ changes drastically!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Yup!

[@brandonherbin7989]

As someone who has a love hate relationship with TLJ….This Was A Great Show! It’s just friends talking about Star Wars. Kristian, we need more Yodi on The Big Thing!! BTW. I’m watching Season 5 of MTS for the first time. “Jane Fonda”🤣🤣🤣

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you Brandon!

[@brandonherbin7989]

@@TheKristianHarloff You’re welcome Kristian!

[@neilhanstock]

I have to say, I agree with 90% of what Mark said in this video, but I appreciate the other points of view. I just wish Ken had been in this discussion as well, in order to make the sides even. Anyway, here are some of my takes on TLJ, based on what I heard in this video:- 1) Poe is essentially Maverick from Top Gun, in Space. He saw an opportunity to destroy an opposition ship, but his ego was trying to write cheques, his body couldn't cash. 2) Hux is just an upper middle management guy, who got to the top by kissing butt and back stabbing his rivals. Essentially, a coward. 3) Romance. In TFA, Finn was besotted by Rey, but it wasn't a mutual feeling. The same could be said of Finn and Rose in TLJ. When Rose first meets Finn, she acted like a teenage girl coming face to face with her favourite pop star....completely star struck. 4) "The character of Luke in TLJ was nothing like that at the end of ROTJ". Well, I don't know too many 50 plus year olds that have exactly the same characters as they did in their 20's, especially those that have gone through a lot of trauma. 5) Canto Bight. I enjoyed this part, as it showed a different side of the Galaxy, and how the othet half lived. 6) Kylo. "You're just a child in a mask" was a humiliating insult thrown at him by Snoke, and his destruction of his helmet was because of the same kind of temper tantrum he had in TFA. Later in the throne room, after a comment by Snoke, he suddenly realises he has been played all along, and kills him. I could go on and on, but for me, it is the most thought provoking movie in all of Star Wars, and gets better and better with every watch.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Happy you enjoyed the movie!

[@Ruylopez778]

"Well, I don't know too many 50 plus year olds that have exactly the same characters as they did in their 20's, especially those that have gone through a lot of trauma." Marcia Lucas and Howard Kazanjian didn't like how Luke was portrayed. Neither did Paul Hirsch. Or Alan Dean Foster. I don't think anyone is saying that people can't change from 20 to 50. I think the point is that having a radical change (because Luke is fundamentally an idealist, loyal and compassionate) stretches credibility, because people don't change who they are fundamentally. They may change, but they don't change who they are. And if it's the desire of the director/writer to change a character, then they should devote enough time to explaining it, not a brief flashback. And then at the end, Luke reverts to the hero role, but isn't really compassionate to Ben, and doesn't believe he can help him. I think the real divisive part in TLJ is not that Luke makes a mistake and gets trapped in self pity. The divisive part is that he was suspicious and sneaked into Ben's room to read his mind. I think a much better misunderstanding would have been where Luke was trying to avoid Ben repeating Luke's mistake, and showing a gradual fall out between them. But for better or worse, TLJ was not interested in doing that. Instead it wanted to explore a 'kill baby Hitler' question and got carried away with being Rashomon and making Kylo sympathetic - in order to force a connection with Rey, when she was supposed heartbroken by seeing him murder Han in front of her. Instead it wanted to examine what happens when you meet your heroes and get letdown and don't get the easy answers. OK, great - but that was done far better in ESB, and Luke was already set up as the hero and then thrown upside down on Dagobah. As for Canto Bight, I think it was a waste of time, when we could have spent some of the TFA and TLJ exploring the galaxy beyond just rebels and FO. In fact that is what is perhaps least interesting about the sequels; the stakes are basically the same in every movie - rebels are about to be wiped out, Rey and Kylo fight, and it's nearly implied Rey might turn dark, but then it never really wants to commit to that.

[@CinematicGalaxy]

@@Ruylopez778 You hit the nail on the head for why I don't like Luke's arc. I can understand why some gravitate toward it, and I like the idea of taking a chance and showing a change...but that radical of a change just didn't feel like the same person at all. Obi-Wan changes a lot from TPM to ANH, yet it still feels like the same guy to me. Anyway, props to both you guys for stating your points civilly. We don't have to agree, but having honest, respectful discussion is great.

[@Ruylopez778]

@@CinematicGalaxy I feel like the internet likes to pretend that the Lucas saga doesn't have much nuance to it, and that's part of the problem in any discussion. I get what LF wanted to do; they wanted to distance themselves from the perceived backlash to the PT - except the backlash was really about specific choices like dialogue and the childlike aspects of TPM which some fans exaggerated about. Lucas even said the people who complained about TPM wanted SW to be like Terminator. I think those kind of people think ESB was the 'progression' for SW and ROTJ took a step backwards, when Lucas always intended for ESB to be the darkest. So they mistakenly thought fans wanted nostalgia, and figured they begin 'in medias res' like the original movie, without seeing that in the first movie, we didn't know anything about the world or characters. They wanted to bring in new characters in the front, which is totally understandable, but they just felt like reworked versions of the OT. They wanted to avoid Luke overshadowing them (which backfired anyway) when the most interesting thing about the sequels is actually what happened between Ben and Luke in the academy. Furthermore, the saga is told through the eyes of R2, and shot in a 'documentary style' (Lucas even says in the director's commentary) and only ESB has the kind of zooms and pans of a conventional movie, so for the sequels to use flashback rather than time jumps is a mistake IMO. They really should have begun with Luke and Ben falling out, and then had a time jump, or explained the fallout in VII in dialogue. But the whole rebels vs empire again was so unnecessary, making the characters and their arcs feel even more repetitive. There's a video by Arndt called 'Insanely Good Endings', and he talks about how the stakes in ANH are all flipped in the space of 90 seconds - and how Owen/Han both think people should look out for themselves, and Obi-Wan/Leia are the ones looking at a wider world. So when Han returns to save the day, Luke turns of the targeting computer and trusts Obi-Wan, it shows us the philosophical lesson. TFA doesn't really have that, because we know basically nothing about Rey - it's like they missed the most important through line of ANH, but copied all the rest - and as I said before, the importance of Obi-Wan supporting and trusting Luke (where other characters look down on him at first). I think this was Marcia's point about them not understanding SW. I get that people like the sugar at the end of TLJ, where they think Luke is sacrificing himself like Obi-Wan and 'it rhymes', but it really doesn't, when you compare the bond between Obi-Wan and Luke and the lack of bond between Luke and Rey or Kylo. Sadly, the internet just says, "Lucas wanted Luke to be alone on the island", as if there aren't 100 different ways to write that story, and 100 different ways to write Luke. And they get hung up on the symbolism of sunsets, but the sunset in ANH was Luke looking for something he didn't have, and finding it at the end of ROTJ, where the final shot is him with his friends. So to then fast forward to Luke dying alone, and no force ghost, no voiceover to another character, and not even a funeral pyre and characters reacting, feels completely out of place in the saga. I think that's why the ending doesn't redeem TLJ in the eyes of some, despite it's defenders talking about how 'beautiful' it is. A lot of people checked out emotionally before the climax, when they were telling themselves "Luke wouldn't do that" when he lifts his lightsaber over Ben as he sleeps. The shot of Luke looking evil in green was big mistake for me. It was bold, I'll give it that, and well shot, but a big mistake considering they kept him out of the first movie. To come back to my first point, some want to see the saga as very basic, and the characters as basic, and think making Luke, Han and Leia "real" gave it more "depth". For me they were heroes, but still flawed and relatable in a fairytale. I don't need them to be "real" because that's not what I go to SW for. When you think of how upbeat ROTJ ends (despite nuance) and then fast forward and they all gave up it gets kind of depressing. Han went back to dressing exactly the same, but somehow now he's not as smart and full of shame? I don't know... I feel like the original trio didn't get a moment to really shine as themselves, even if people change over time. It would have been better to just leave them out, or recast younger and have them be the central characters again - but we know the twin motivations of Disney - have the old cast to build hype, and push a bunch of young characters to keep the franchise going forward - neither of those have much to do with story. I think JJ tried to push the angle that TFA was about legacy - but IMO the idea of "legacy" was handled much better in the OT. The whole meta narrative of the sequels seemed to be about; 'look a the mess the previous generation have left us in!' and I'm just not interested in that kind of mindset. That could be why it seems to appeal to a lot of younger fans - or maybe it's their first experience of SW on the big screen that they can remember vividly. I feel in some ways that the older characters are treated like flawed and redundant objects - and it borders on ageism at times. Whereas the Lucas saga was very much about wisdom and looking up to elders (even if it was a coming of age tale). Just my opinion. My version of what they could have done; take the characters they had in the sequels, and put them in a Mandalorian style setting, where they are trying to rebuild a faltering republic. Take the first half of TFA and end it with the first half of TLJ. Make Finn the character who turns on them, not DJ, throw out Starkiller base and Crait and Canto Bight, have Leia as the leader of the republic, and have Rey either be mentored by Luke (like Million Dollar Baby) or Rey mentored by Leia (and have it be maternal figures, a bit like the first Wonder Woman did). Have different factions pushing against each other, and really show Jedi training in a way they only hinted at in the OT and PT. You can still fit a 'Col Kurtz' broken Luke into that. And I would have kept Poe dead, because a. he was boring, and b. three central characters felt too similar to the OT (unless Finn turns back). As for the structure, they could base it on any King Arthur, King Lear etc. Some people like to say it's completing the hero's journey or King Arthur, depending on how you interpret the beats, but it's just too similar to the OT for me.

[@NavasGonzalo]

Love to hear someone defending Episode 8 (that I hate) it makes much more clear the fact that all that people who love that movies defends things that doesn't neccesary happen in front of the camera, but in their minds

[@brentm.8140]

I feel like we share a brain when it comes to this movie, Kristian, because I agree with every single thing you said about it. TLJ is tied for my least favorite of all the live action SW movies with AotC. It's a shame because the potential was there for this to be a truly great movie, but it was just executed all wrong.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Yup, that is the big issue!

[@DISHWASHERANDDRYER]

Agree with Steph the 3rd act is awesome on the red planet. That was well made!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Yeah lots of stuff in this is very well made for sure.

[@roninunchained]

This discussion was fun. Love yall! Love Star Wars!!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you!

[@davidloukas3158]

These are one of those movies where no matter how much I hear the negativity I just don’t understand how this a bad movie or even the “worst Star Wars “ movie but that’s just my own opinion . Love this show guys !! Watch it every Saturday morning keep up the great work ! You all inspire me every day

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you David! Really appreciate that! If you have a chance, please download the show in podcast form! Helps us tremendously!

[@baileyrowe15]

Loving these shows! Need more Reilly 😂😂

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Will definitely have him on again!

[@Super_Middleman]

Dang, I wish I found this video when it premiered. I love seeing non-toxic nerd discussions. I also appreciate that Kristian gives credence to the fact that there are a lot of people (such as myself) who didn't like TLJ for legitimate (non-toxic) reasons.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

That is the point of these shows TBH, to show that movies are movies, not politics. People lost that across the way.

[@brucecrawford4948]

I would love to read JJ Abrams original scripts for Episodes 8 & 9. I get it that we saw some of it in The Rise of Skywalker. I just want to read his original scripts for the sequels.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Same

[@1dannyefc]

@@TheKristianHarloff I don't think JJ did a script for 8 did he? I don't remember hearing that, at all. I'm sure he had some ideas but as far as I know 8 was always rian.

[@CinematicGalaxy]

Wasn't Episode 9 Trevorrow's script? Duel of the Fates, I believe. I didn't love every idea, but I wish things had ultimately gone that direction instead of what we got.

[@brucecrawford4948]

@@1dannyefc I think JJ Abrams did make scripts though. Or at least outlines of a script for Episodes 8 & 9.

[@brucecrawford4948]

@@CinematicGalaxy I think JJ Abrams did make scripts though. Or at least outlines of a script for Episodes 8 & 9.

[@CinematicGalaxy]

Also, a follow-up to my previous (lengthy) comment just to add more context to my thoughts: As an aspiring filmmaker, I do admire and love that Rian Johnson made the type of Star Wars movie HE wanted, putting in his own weird ideas and rolling with it. I've no doubt that the man loves Star Wars. I just personally didn't care for most of his creative choices, when it came to the story or dialogue. I love his cinematography and editing, and certain scenes have a great intensity, like Kylo and Rey's Force struggle over Anakin's lightsaber, or Kylo and Force Apparition Luke's stand-off on Crait...but overall the movie doesn't land with me. It's just not what ultimately draws me to Star Wars.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Totally fair points!

[@lilsi78]

I absolutely love this movie. I rank it third for me! Actually brought m to tears!! I'll defend this movie until the end of time!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

And you should if you love it! Nice.

[@pr0_gabby656]

I’m with you red leader!

[@Entertainment_Therapy]

Absolutely loved this discussion! I'm a huge fan of this film and to see both sides of the discussion was awesome. I 100% see why you didn't like it, Kristian, but this movie really spoke to me. I totally see what you're saying. It's just preference for me. I do hate that there was no plan for this trilogy. How on earth could they do this? It just boggles my mind. But this is what it is. I just can't help it, I really loved this movie. Great discussion. As always, keep up the great work my friend!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

And I respect your take as well Ian. Thank you!

[@tomt5482]

47:00

[@TheKristianHarloff]

See, what you said there is what people need to follow. Keep them in your own mindset how ever you want. People can enjoy them, not enjoy them however they choose. Thank you!

[@viagotanega9898]

I understand why someone would hate this. But to me, while yes it isn’t perfect, this movie really affected me emotionally. The themes of failure and redemption, doesn’t matter who you are, whether it’s the famed Luke Skywalker or you’re just a nobody, you are never beyond redemption.

[@Redjack10]

For clarification purposes, Riley never called the Reverend Mother the Gom Jabbar, he said Paul was tested with the Gom Jabbar, and I think you heard it as that being her name. As soon as I heard you refer to her as that I was like “oh boy that’s going to be a lot of WELL ACKTUALLY messages.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Ha yup, I don't pretend to care about the names of anything.

[@billyhaines8307]

Riley you didn't love Luke throwing the lightsaber lol don't lie. Great review guys!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you!

[@Seenospidey]

Mark comes off as such a zealot in this

[@craigwilliamson8167]

The what if side of things are the reason we like or dislike something in a movie, so I’m not sure why that bothers Reilly so much. The reason you don’t like a character, story, setting, music, etc is because you want something else, which means it’s all what if’s. What if the character was smarter, what if the pacing was faster, what if the music had more strings, etc.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

He is one of my best pals but the not doing the "what if" for this is something he and I do, did for movies ALL of the time.

[@craigwilliamson8167]

I just wasn’t sure why he was saying that, but I love when he’s on. I like that he’s not persuaded by public opinion and sticks to his convictions. I was looking forward to this episode for weeks! Great job 👏

[@Ruleof2Review]

I am definitely with Kristian and Steph on this one, but I love Mark’s passion and appreciate he enjoys it. The biggest crime of ALL these movies is that in now way do they “continue the story” of the first 6 films. They may be canon, but they are thematically spin-offs. No connective tissue other than each original character spending one day with the new characters. Horrendously disappointing.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Agreed

[@charger9105]

First time viewer of this channel. A very nuanced and smart conversation on a film where it's difficult to find nuanced and smart conversation. Impressed with all 3 of you. I'm subscribing now.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you Brad! Really appreciate that! May I ask how you found us? And thank you for commenting! Sith Council is available in podcast form as well if you like to listen to podcasts!

[@stan4242]

I saw this movie in the theatre, and it was not only disappointing imo, I found it to be not entertaining in any way. On a very basic surface level, there was nothing fun, exciting or compelling about it in any way for me. But I love how this is a very fun discussion on a divisive movie without it becoming some sort of debate. It is ok for people to have different views. The toxicity comes imo when people attach value judgements on other people based on their opposing views, which is nonsense when it regards opinions of blockbuster movies. Love everything you guys do!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

That is one of my biggest reasons for liking it less and less, I don't find it fun.

[@Boshuda1977]

I have to agree with all Mark Reilly says about TLJ! 👏😁👍

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Hey, that is why he is here! To represent all sides!

[@gwynnie_bird]

Luke’s arc in TLJ was what turned me from casual movie going lover of Star Wars to part of the fandom. I felt finally grief and legacy of the Jedis mistakes and inability to handle relational complexity with Anakin had culminated in Luke unintentionally repeating some of their mistakes. But then I went and watched clone wars, rebels, and did a full rewatch of all the things and then rewatching TLJ was a totally different experience. Like some of the discussion here, I couldn’t see him leaving Leia hanging after learning about Han. And the Canto Bight stuff just felt to gratuitous. It’s an interesting position to be in as a fan, because I will always be grateful for some of the things in TLJ that brought me into a deep open love of the franchise….but also, the ST is a mess lol.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Hey this is a great take! Thank you!

[@kingme1931]

I honestly don’t think I have the patience to have a conversation like this because I would get too frustrated with the defense of certain things. But conversations like this is always good to have

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Hope you give it a shot!

[@soulwarrior]

Regarding the "I like that this movie tried to do new things" take, a LOT of it felt like it was done with the specific purpose to do something that you didn't expect (subverting expectations). It's cool to try new things. But it doesn't mean that you have to bend over backwards to come up with unexpected plot twists. And since half of the things that happen and that you do not see coming are feeling that way because half the people in the movie are acting out of character is a testament to how bad the writing for this movie is...

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Lots of difference of opinion on this one for sure!

[@Nudelyoshi3928]

First of all: Loving the discussion! I'm kinda mixed on the movie, I love and dislike it kinda at the same time. It's really fun to talk about with the right people and that was definitly the case here Second: Kristian, your voice is so smooth and relaxing q3q

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thanks man! check out today's episode of the Big Thing, did the whole thing solo!

[@jakecleveland1051]

Kristian I believe if it was Luke catching the lightsaber in The Force Awakens instead of Rey, it would have been on Par with Captain America catching Thor's Hammer in Endgame and everyone would have lost their minds

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Agreed

[@SuperTonyony]

Luke would never, ever, EVER turn his back on everyone and let the galaxy fall to the Dark Side. Never. Rian Johnson doesn't know who Luke Skywalker is.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

I happen to agree w you.

[@Major98]

Love that you guys brought on a different view from your own Oh boy this movie is all over the place. There are some things this movie does great and some not so much. The good: The visuals, I thought Luke's death was a proper Jedi death/sacrifice, the Kylo and Snoke scenes are fantastic, Rey and Kylo are an interesting dynamic. The bad: Luke turning against everything we liked about him(even if he does change his mind at the end), sidelining Finn and separating the cast was a huge mistake, Canto Bight should have been a 2 minute scene at the most, Leia's bizarre space-flight, the humor is worse than any Marvel movie, I hate that it opens with a prank call.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Yeah wouldn't be fair if it was just me and Steph talking about not liking this one.

[@iansmart4158]

But Empire separates the characters for most of the runtime! There are 2 parallel stories like in Empire. In Empire the Leia and Han are the leads of one story and Luke and Yoda is the lead of the other. That's directly paralleled here with: Rey and Luke in Story 1 and Rose and Finn in Story 2. Then there's also a 3rd story with Poe but still. The film gives equal weight to each of these conflicts. Based on screen time alone!

[@suribuxton9079]

I love this movie personally. Never understood the hate. Also please have Star Wars Santa on, he has an awesome viewpoint on this movie and the fandom in general and I feel he would add a lot to your discussions 🙏🏻😌

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thanks for making me aware!

[@Greyjedi67]

Since 1983, the perspective of Star Wars fandom ceased to be objective. First came the Prequels, then the Clone Wars series, now the sequels. Every fan’s reaction is now subjective. It depends on your age, your generation and what was your introduction to Star Wars. I think of that scene in TESB when Luke asks what’s in the cave and Yoda says “Only what you bring with you.” So any given Star Wars fan finds in any release only what they bring with them. 🤨

[@benedettodickey5086]

Couldn’t of said it better.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Well said.

[@ElmerPonceCastro]

Last Jedi was one of the few times where I was jumping up and down in the theater; feeling like a kid. I will always remember watching that last hour for the first time. The film is behind Sith as being the most thematically rich in the franchise. Loved Kylo and Rey’s arcs and for once, I genuinely cared about Luke. Wish we can get a SW film like it again but then we’re back in this rage ship again lol

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Happy you enjoyed it for sure!

[@seandconway]

I'm bummed you guys aren't into this amazing movie but that is totally ok and I always enjoy hearing what you love or don't love in Star Wars. I might be one of the few people that loves all of the connections and deep themes between TFA, TLJ, and TROS and I'm a huge fan of the sequel trilogy overall! Thank you so much again for a great show and I'm so happy that you guys had Mark Reilly as a guest on the council to balance out the different points of view. Awesome discussion and a great job at keeping it civil, wish all Star Wars fans could do that. I can't wait for TROS to re-watch in a couple weeks and I hope you can bring on another guest who loves that movie. Keep up the great work you guys do! This is the Way!

[@anakincrespin]

I feel the same way my friend!!! Napzok probably wouldn't want to but he or Joseph Scrimshaw would be the perfect guest for TRoS rewatch

[@seandconway]

@@anakincrespin I'm so happy to hear that! I couldn't agree more on having them on as a guest. The Force Center Podcast is my favorite place to hear people talk Star Wars. You are probably right about Ken but I think they may be able to get Joseph on. I've always wanted to hear Kristian talk Star Wars with Joseph.

[@anakincrespin]

@@seandconway for real, I would absolutely love to hear Kristian talking about Star Wars one on one with Scrimshaw!!!

[@seandconway]

@@anakincrespin Let's hope it happens one day. It would be an incredible discussion!

[@Daniel145D]

With all due respect and I like last Jedi as a film but the sequel trilogy as a whole is probably the most disconnected trilogy I’ve ever seen😮

[@ShawHortonMusic]

Great discussion! I love that both sides of the argument were represented and could have a respectful discussion of the film. The Poe/Holdo storyline is, in my opinion, the worst storyline in the film. It just feels so contrived, not natural at all for the characters involved. It was as if Johnson used Poe to tell the story he wanted to tell rather than telling a story that fit Poe as a character. Sure, Poe was a bit arrogant in TFA, but he wasn’t reckless. And he was talented for sure. But TLJ made him reckless. And having Leia slap him felt very out of character for her, as a general. She was always snippy and sarcastic, but to physically assault her top pilot felt wrong. Then Holdo, who we don’t know and are given no reason to trust, comes in and immediately talks down to Poe. Didn’t this guy just lead the successful attack on Starkiller Base, about ten minutes ago? He’s Leia’s top pilot, as stated in TFA’s crawl. Why should Holdo mistreat him and keep him in the dark on her plan? The Kylo/Rey/Luke section is the best in the film, but I have one primary issue that keeps me from enjoying it. Luke becoming disillusioned with the Jedi and exiling himself isn’t a bad concept, on paper. It could’ve worked. But Johnson took it too far, to the point where Luke was unrecognizable. But the reason why he’s exiled himself is what primarily doesn’t work for me at all. I really can’t believe Luke would sneak into Ben’s hut while he was unarmed and asleep, and consider killing him to the point where he’d ignite his lightsaber over him. That’s not Luke Skywalker. Wouldn’t Luke first try and talk to Ben and connect with him on a personal level, instead of all this sneaking around? If Johnson really wanted to have Luke take up arms against Ben, then wouldn’t it make more sense for Ben to go a little too far while training with other students, giving Luke no choice but to step in and push back against Ben? Luke even tells Rey that he sensed darkness in Ben during his training. Why not show the audience that? If you’re gonna make Luke do such a drastic thing, then you HAVE to give it enough context to make it feel like a natural progression for his character. We waited so long to see Luke back in action on screen, and it was just so disappointing. Luke didn’t feel like himself until the very end, during his last stand on Crait, but by then they killed him off and it wasn’t enough for me. I like his one scene in TROS very much, because it was a glimpse of Master Luke Skywalker that a lot of fans would’ve preferred to see, with him guiding the next generation. The Canto Bight stuff is whatever. The location is cool. A casino in Star Wars? Could’ve been fun. But they didn’t really take advantage of the location. I like that that sequence actually gave us some world-building with the elite class funding both sides of the war. But they didn’t explore it much further than that quick mention. I would’ve liked to see Poe and Finn go on a side mission together instead of Finn and Rose. Poe and Finn had a great friendship in TFA and played off of each other very well, so WHY wouldn’t they get more screen time together in the next film? There are some other smaller problems throughout, such as Hux being too goofy, but my biggest issues are listed above. The film has some great moments, it really does. Adam Driver’s performance is excellent, as expected. I love that we got to see him flying his TIE fighter. He’s Han’s son and Anakin’s grandson, so of course he would have skill as a pilot, so I loved seeing that. I loved when Poe reunited with BB-8 on Crait and rubbed his belly like a puppy. But as a whole, I just feel so underwhelmed when I watch TLJ. Knives Out is a great film, so Rian Johnson obviously has some talent, but he wasn’t the right fit for Episode 8.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

GREAT points and thank you for sharing them

[@picci8]

Agree with this too. Luke was a character of love. His love for his father turned him from the dark side. His love for his nephew would have had Luke see the best in him, not ignite a lightsaber over him to kill. There are numerous objective mistakes from a storytelling aspect throughout the story that was also head scratching. One eg; poe’s ship at the start was “too fast and too small” to hit? TFA literally starts with Poe and Finn being shot at at the same distance. Some ideas were good, just executed without technical skill or empathy for the audience.

[@fredtastik314]

Kristian... I loved The Last Jedi. I appreciate your perspective on it. How ever I think about your opinion, you opened something about this movie to me. It isn't a "fun" watch. It has fun parts but overall no. Rian created a beautiful movie with a Star Wars name but not the usual themes. That's what hits the most for me! I love your channel and the work you put into it. Thanks!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you for your take as well! Love the conversation here today!

[@DAR31]

I’m more in Reilly’s camp when it comes to this movie. But hearing Kristian and Steph’s point of view without it turning into a shouting match or name calling was nice.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Yeah we wanted to prove that peaceful conversation can occur while watching this movie!

[@tomt5482]

The first time I saw TLJ at the cinema and I saw Luke throw the lightsaber over his shoulder after waiting 2 years to find out what happens, I let out a small short audile laugh....out of disbelief! It was a complete WTF are you serious moment that was so out of character and kind of destroyed the tone of the movie, not to mention the end of TFA. To learn he was a coward hiding in a stone hut drinking green alien breast milk across the other side of the galaxy while disconnected from the force was so disappointing. Luke always faced his fears, sometimes a little recklessly, but he never ran away....especially not when his friends needed him most. When the thought of Leia being turned to the dark side was brought up in ROTJ, he was willing to sacrifice himself in order to protect her. To think he would abandon them all at such a crucial time when he was one of the most powerful people in the galaxy and able to make a difference is so mind numbing!

[@NZealand]

They should’ve got Jon faverau to direct

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Yeah it was a bold choice that I think was not needed.

[@pauladdae3130]

Yeah, if they had him withdrawn, depressed, in retreat and not wanting to get involved, that would have been a better execution. But why add in: no reflection on Han dead, Luke getting dropped by Rey, Luke trying to kill Kylo while he was asleep, Luke winking while drinking that green milk, the poor dialogue. If they had a sombre Luke without all of this foolishness I think it would not be so controversial. I think the ST will be skipped over, and to top it all off Lucasfilm themself did not plan the ST adequately. Based on that lack of planning, their own testimony, that should be enough to indicate the problems with the entire ST.

[@jackmayer8863]

I couldn't disagree more with Kristian about this film, but damn if I don't absolutely love hearing him talk about it. I think something that I really like about this movie is that every character starts and ends in a different place, which I don't think they did in TFA, even Finn. I never really saw him having much of an arc in the first film; when he goes to Star Killer Base with Han his motivation is "I'm just here to get Rey," and I don't see any real change in that in the third act. Him picking up the lightsaber to fight Kylo in that film, at least from my perspective, is more him fighting for Rey (since she's just been wounded) than for anyone else. So when he starts this movie out in the same mindset, to me that's a natural progression, and I like that his story in the movie goes from "I want to help this one person" to "I want to help the galaxy." I've seen TLJ a bunch of times, but on my most recent watch, I counted how many times he actually says Rey, and it's three, and they're only in the first act. Canto Bight still isn't my favorite sequence, but I mind it less and less as I see it more, because of how much it really does tie into the story. Everything in my mind builds up to the Holdo maneuver: if Finn and Rose don't go to Canto Bight, they don't meet DJ, who then sells out the info that they're getting the resistance out on the transports, which is what forces the maneuver. Even if everything isn't necessarily done perfectly, it's all important to be shown in one way or another, which is something that I think other Star Wars movie struggle with. Kristian talked about how the movie doesn't feel like it takes from the classic western/Kurosawa elements of the others, but I think it pretty directly lifts from Rashomon with the Luke/Kylo stories of the lightsaber ignition (I think someone even floated that out at a certain point), and while yes, it doesn't lift as much of, say, Seven Samurai like the original trilogy does, I still think the influence is present from Johnson where I didn't feel like it was from Abrams. As for the Luke arc, I absolutely get why people don't like it. I had never thought of the idea of the resistance rendezvousing to Ahch-To to pick Luke up and have him train in 9, and I actually really like that concept, but I also still really appreciate the way that Johnson handles his death, and I do like the ideas that Trevorrow was going to have for Luke in 9, where "see you around kid" would have actually meant something instead of meaning absolutely nothing. I love that Rey's a nobody, I love her dynamic with Kylo, and I really like that we see progression in her character subtly through her style changes that are then reverted in TROS. The Poe stuff, again, I get it, I just didn't necessarily find him to be very interesting in TFA, and I like the idea of him going from what he thinks it means to be a hero to what it actually means. But despite my disagreements, again, this is a fantastic review, I've been loving the content that you've been putting out recently, and I'm excited to see what you've got next!

[@travisgardiner8997]

This.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you for the very thoughtful, respectful comment. I respect your take on this very much! I am very proud of this community. This discussion has been very impressive from everyone whether you agree or disagree with any of our takes or each other. Thank you!

[@Kenji-fm8kf]

I’ve removed TLJ from my memory banks

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Hey I get it!

[@Dp_is_Op]

And it sucks because force awakens was a good start

[@Kenji-fm8kf]

@@Dp_is_Op exactly. So much potential

[@tashrif46]

The only bumner from the movie is that we didn't see Luke fighting side by side with Rey with the Duel of the Fates playing in the background. That would have been epic

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Agreed

[@zachstephens211]

I love this movie! Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher’s performances are the best of their careers!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Both well done for sure.

[@katevand]

love to see mature fans talk about what they like with different takes and not be a blood bath. kuddos, not really into SW but i love the discourse.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you!

[@christianalonte5125]

This is a well made film but I highly enjoyed the Amazing Spider-Man 2 over this haha

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Same

[@Jokester954]

Holy shit let’s go it’s mark Riley!!!!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

We had fun on this one!

[@Yic17Studio]

For me the unfortunate thing with the sequel trilogy is that the 3rd movie is the weakest (IMO). Whereas the prequel trilogy the 3rd movie is the strongest so I can excuse the first 2. With sequel trilogy, I liked both TFA & TLJ, but with the 3rd movie being such a mess, it really ruined the previous 2 movies. I agree 100% that in TLJ Rian changed plans from TFA. But at least it's still a well made movie. They could still salvage it by making a great 3rd movie but they didn't. The 3rd movie is just such a mess. There are scenes I loved in TROS but overall the plot is so weak I cannot re-watch this movie. First time was good because I didn't know what was going to happen. But once you know, 2nd time it felt like a chore - first go there, then go there, then go there etc. I wish they can remake TROS but of course it's not going to happen.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Well that is why I am so gung ho with the actual TV show now

[@Ruylopez778]

TFA sets up Ben/Kylo's goal as looking for Luke. And in SW the dark apprentice always wants to kill off the master. So he's either going to be redeemed and turn back, or do something else (which doesn't fit SW). Rey doesn't really have any concrete goal beyond looking for a destiny and it's implied she should go to Luke. Then there's the mystery box around her, and the mystery box about where, why Luke disappeared. TLJ, upturns all those mystery boxes. Luke is dead, so Kylo can't go looking for him, and he kills off Snoke, so there's another potential plot line that could continue. Rey doesn't find answers but Luke, but somehow does, so that is also kind of resolved. All these things are resolved without really being that 'fun'. TLJ basically ends the trilogy better than TROS does, and makes Kylo and Rey a stalemate, where they don't want to kill each other, but are equal in power. It seems to want to imply that Kylo is now committed to being dark, but that doesn't sit well in the saga if he can't be redeemed. And he can't be redeemed unless there's someone more antagonistic than him. Whatever angle you take with IX, it's going to be a separate story with the same characters, because everything from TFA has been more or less resolved/broken. The only way to continue would be if Luke reappears or Snoke wasn't dead, which would be another twist that will annoy some of the audience, or you twist something else about Rey's parents still being alive. In short, TROS is inevitably a mess because the saga started with mysteries instead of details, and then TLJ threw all those mysteries away and resolved the main conflicts of TFA. It wants to repeat the redemption arc - and if they redeem Kylo it feels to similar, and if they don't it goes against the idea that all people can be redeemed, and ends SW on a downer. I would have had it end with Ben Solo going into exile - but then I would have had the middle movie be completely different, and the whole trilogy be completely different.

[@Yic17Studio]

@@Ruylopez778 I agree with a lot of what you said about TLJ basically throwing all the plans out by either ending certain story arcs or changing them. But I don't agree that TROS has to be a mess. Yes it may be difficult to salvage, but it's all about writing skills. A better writer will be able to make it work. You give this movie to Denis Villeneuve, Russo Brothers, Edgar Wright etc - I believe these master writers will be able to make it work. JJ has done some very good works but he is not on the same level as these guys in terms of writing. I also agree that Ben going on exile instead of dying would be much better. There would be so much more that they can do for Ben Solo in the future if they had taken this route instead.

[@Ruylopez778]

@@Yic17Studio There are a lot of things they could do, yeah. It could have just followed Kylo destroying the FO and Jedi temples, and have a showdown with Rey and Finn leading a stormtrooper revolt, but that would still be quite repetitive. And the reason is because none of that 'burn it all down' was established in TFA. What was established was the mysteries and push/pull between Kylo, Luke and Snoke. It's also easy for the rebels to kill off Hux since he doesn't have force powers. And TLJ ended with Kylo being outwitted, when it should have ended with him winning, if RJ wanted to commit to Kylo being evil. If they'd gone with the Kylo exile, it would have at least been something new, but again, his motivation in TFA was not to go into exile, it was to find and kill Luke, and resist or give in to the dark side. Eh, I would love to see a Villeneuve SW movie, or the Russo's but writing is about setup and payoff. What I'm saying is TLJ killed off too many elements without establishing enough new threads to go forwards. And TFA didn't give us enough new things, or enough concrete information that would extend to IX. I don't blame this on JJ, though he's not much beyond a Spielberg imitator with worse judgement. LF rushed both VII and IX into production and interference from Iger. I think RJ was the only one given free reign to make what he wanted (within limits) but he was stuck with JJ's TFA mystery boxes. Having said that, RJ could have come up with some wonderful inventive solutions in TLJ - but he didn't. We got DJ, Rose and Holdo, who aren't very imaginative at all, and one dead, one left. It also meant nothing when DJ double crossed them, because he wasn't a friend like Lando in ESB, and he didn't redeem himself. He wanted to put Rey, Finn and Poe in the toughest situations they could face, and focus on Rey & Kylo. Fine. But we don't know much about Rey, Finn and Poe anyway, they introduced DJ, Rose and Holdo, just to give Poe and Finn something to do - so more characters who don't know each other. Whatever you do, IX has to spend the start establishing what the characters want now that Snoke is dead, Luke is gone and Rey has already found out her parents are dead and nobody special and she has no bond with Luke. And that means creating something that wasn't implied in TFA. Had they kept either Luke or Snoke - or Luke had found a bond with Rey before he died, there would be something to continue.

[@NomadFlow]

@@Yic17Studio "But I don't agree that TROS has to be a mess. Yes it may be difficult to salvage, but it's all about writing skills. A better writer will be able to make it work. You give this movie to Denis Villeneuve, Russo Brothers, Edgar Wright etc -" RuyLopezQB6 hit the nail on the head and you missed it. There was no way to complete salvage TROS because it was the last movie in a trilogy where the second movie (TLJ) was absolute sh*t show. You didn't actually make any counterargument. All you did was bring up directors that YOU like. That's not an argument. And Edgar Wright is not appropriate whatsoever for a Star Wars movie because he actually has a lot in common with Rian Johnson since both are hipsters. TLJ is a hipster movie since it's far more concerned with subversion for subversion's sake rather than having a coherent narrative that organically continues from the movie that came before. I hated TFA since it's a complete scam of a movie (i.e. remake A New Hope but call it a sequel) but there was still a chance to turn things around since there were two movies left. After the disaster that was TLJ which had Johnson acting like a petulant child by throwing away almost everything established in the previous movie, there simply was no way that TROS was going to ever even be decent. Less horrible maybe but never decent.

[@donp380]

Great discussion as always! Couldn't agree more with Kristian saying he hates the movie more with every watch. Just felt like RJ read every discussion board between TFA & TLJ and did the exact opposite of what everyone speculated just to spite fans & JJ which is lazy storytelling IMO. Who's Rey? Nobody. Parents? Nobody. Snoke? Nobody. Knights of Ren? Nobody. Luke? A cowardly grump. Kylo? Destroys mask. Po? Imbecile. Rose? Woof. Finn? Where's Rey. It's depressing how much potential this trilogy had. It was like JJ & RJ were 2 brothers fighting over Star Wars toys & the mom (KK) said "boys you each take turns & play nice" which lead to the disaster of this trilogy. Also in regards to Reilly being the majority, that is inaccurate. While critics loved TLJ it has a 42% audience score on RT, so the majority of fans actually disliked this film. It's a very well-made stand-alone fan fiction sci-fi movie, it just doesn't work as a Star Wars movie.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

It did feel like he wanted to throw it in a different direction so no one could see what was coming. Sometimes that is good, sometimes dangerous and not good.

[@donp380]

@@TheKristianHarloff 100% agreed. It was definitely the ladder for me. Should've been Favreau & Filoni handling the trilogy, things would've tied together much more seamlessly. At least most can agree Mando is amazing & we have Book of Boba Fett to look forward to.

[@thecount2094]

The last jedi literally broke my heart and made me depressed .literally felt depressed for about a week lol so when I hear people say how much they love it. It's like hearing people say how much they love my ex girlfriend who broke me heart lol its awesome haha

[@MosheGyt]

I wasn’t really depressed after last Jedi but more pissed off for a couple years leading up to rise of skywalker. Then I saw that and got really depressed. That shit is so bad it makes me appreciate some of the last Jedi lol. Looking back on this trilogy it’s so sad what happened. No plan and just such a failure in storytelling

[@thecount2094]

@@MosheGyt I just wanna see what George would have done. Good or bad. I wanted to see :(

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Well that is why TV in star Wars is superior. Don't like an episode 1 week, come back next week for a good one

[@thecount2094]

@@TheKristianHarloff I hope George Lucas makes one more star wars before he passes

[@antony_post]

This video genuinely made my day. I love The Last Jedi. The Sequel Trilogy made me want to be a filmmaker and led me to film school which is where I am today. I say without hyperbole that these movies changed my life. So you can imagine TLJ is very personal to me. To watch this discussion was so enriching, cathartic, and moving to hear. How you guys talked about how stories work for different people was so interesting. Apathy is by far the greatest villain out there, and hearing the respectful passion from all three of you was beautiful to listen to. I definitely disagree with a lot of the takes here, but for the first time, I actually enjoyed listening to the dissension due to how thought out and respectful the opinions were made. Kristian and Steph made me question what I love in ways that made me adore TLJ more. And hearing about Mark’s connection to Luke and looking at his bedroom poster was so touching to hear. Kristian, Steph, and Mark, if you read this, thank you for this wonderful hour and 22 minutes. To “Revel in the gray” is such a powerful sentiment that I’ll hold onto forever. No better channel for Star Wars fans. Without a doubt, you brought balance to the Force.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

What an amazing comment, thank you and good luck on your journey!!

[@antony_post]

@@TheKristianHarloff Thanks Kristian! Been a fan since 2015 going back to Schmoes Know and with videos like this, I’m reminded why

[@mandoruiz619]

The phantom menace has better use of the force in its pinky than the whole sequel trilogy.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Agreed

[@Generalbas1972]

lol yeah midiklorians...............sigh

[@mandoruiz619]

@@Generalbas1972 lol yeah. The force diad barf

[@hito157]

Made it! Great weekend with the Star Wars reviews. I didn't like how they did Luke, his dialogue and movements were too contemporary. He didn't feel like a knight from a galaxy far away. His arc was interesting but the payoff did not plus the story. Great talk with the Reilly One!

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you !

[@Ellipsis10]

Luke was the Golden Goose of this franchise.. i don't understand why Disney decided to move on from him so quickly. The response that Luke received in the finale of the Mandalorian proves my point.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Agreed. Look at what he did to The Mandalorian when he showed up!

[@neonlost]

yeah i 100% agree the last jedi executes things like a parody not a whimsical space epic like 1-7

[@dawn_bestofj2]

This movie raised a red flag with me in the first five minutes with the Poe and Hux exchange. Then it lost me with the way Luke comically tossed the lightsaber. I agree with you 100% that I was done for a laugh. The humor in this movie was too over the top and took me out of the story. Don’t get me started on the green milk scene. This movie ranks at the bottom for me. Leia floating in space didn’t work for me at all. It was cringeworthy. I think they should have just killed off her character in this one since we lost Carrie and let Luke live. They might have been able to pull it off with the footage they had shot. I ovied Carrie Fisher and Leia was my favorite character but the Leia scenes in The Rise of Skywalker felt off. Probably because I knew they were originally used for another scene/movie. The movie is pretty to look at and the score is amazing. There are a couple of good scenes but overall it just didn’t land with me. I agree with you when you said it felt like it was seven hours long. I can appreciate that Mark likes it and why. It sucks that TPTB didn’t have a plan for this trilogy. We might have had three great movies.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Looks like we are on same page.

[@Joakim-Buht-Focker]

I LOVE these rewatches and your choices for guests on these have been perfect man. I hope this will be a continuing show throughout the big thing, would be cool to get some build up for directors like Nolan, Tarantino movies as an example. Nolans movie comes out in 2023 so i will for sure still be here just in case haha

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Yeah we will be doing more, we did one for Wolf of Wall Street. Was actually our first one.

[@Joakim-Buht-Focker]

@@TheKristianHarloff I need to get on that right now. I thought i had watched all of these, thanks.

[@briangoins3386]

The second Luke tossed the saber I was out, whether that is right or wrong. Rian totally did that as a jokey joke and it should have been a powerful moment. How about "who are you" or "where did you get this?"

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Yup

[@sokitjamz8762]

Lol Steph's reaction is cracking me up in this, especially when Kristian goes off on the "assanine" comments lol. Love Reilly though, miss him, brought a tiny bit of appreciation for this film. Reilly's lightsaber toss take was interesting, never thought about it like that.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Ha thanks!

[@Ellipsis10]

THE FACT that Luke SKYWALKER would give up on his family and decide to go on a remote island to die is complete BULL! I can appreciate a hero overcome obstacles however, LUKE did not give up on his father, literally the worst person in the galaxy, and he would sure not leave Leia and his nephew like that. I JUST DON’T BUY IT, nobody will ever change my mind on this!.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

I am with you on that

[@davznothere]

There's a big difference between "giving up" and attempted murder.

[@lookingforwookiecopilot]

That's what makes his story so compelling. Sorry you didn't like it.

[@MadSlantedPowers]

@@davznothere There was no attempted murder, unless you believe Kylo Ren's version of events.

[@austinjamesmink5521]

Han in TFA: “ He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything.” Sounds like set up for this version of Luke and not RJ spinning things. I respect the hell out of opposition here, I wasn’t looking forward to this one since I love TLJ but it became my favorite one, I LOVED the conversation. To me, Luke’s journey echos a mixture of Obi-Wan and Yoda, those two Jedi also went into self-exile, arguably not cutting themselves off from the force. Cere Junda also cut herself off from the Force, you can argue that Fallen Order handle things a little better showing a Jedi severed from the Force, in the way Harloff says, I see that, I get it, trust me, I understand, but I love all the choices made with Luke in this, I love his arc, I get hit in the feels when he says: “And I will NOT be the Last Jedi.” I love DJ’s thing about: “They were doing business with the bad and the good,” I love when they touch on the grey area in the universe, like what Bill Burr says in Mandalorian, season 2 episode 7 when he says: “I don't know. Seems to me like your rules start to change when you get desperate. I mean, look at ya. You said you couldn't take your helmet off, and now you got a stormtrooper one on, so what's the rule? Is it that you can't take off your Mando helmet, or you can't show your face? 'Cause there is a difference. Look, I'm just sayin', we're all the same. Everybody's got their lines they don't cross until things get messy. As far as I'm concerned, if you can make it through your day and still sleep at night, you're doin' better than most.” I love all of that stuff. Just somethings not touched on here that I really dig

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you very much for being part of the civil conversation as well!

[@Ruylopez778]

"There were a lot of rumors, stories. The people that knew him best, thought he went looking for the first Jedi temple." So all it sets up is mystery boxes. If he just walked away, then why would he be in Jedi robes at the end of TFA? Because there was no concrete plan about what to do next. "not RJ spinning things." Well RJ basically said, 'I don't care' about every mystery box - which is fine because none of the mysteries were very interesting, but when ESB throws everything upside down, we already knew who the characters were in the first movie and we knew that they cared about one another. TLJ moves the 'Hoth' scene to the end, so we don't start off the movie with the central characters together, showing how important they are to one another - that they are willing to risk their lives for each other. "Luke’s journey echos a mixture of Obi-Wan and Yoda, those two Jedi also went into self-exile" Except both of them were escaping Order 66, and both of them took on a new apprentice - that they trusted and supported. And neither was leaving a twin to pick up the mess they left behind. And it is this bond of trust and support between master and apprentice that is missing from the sequels. It's all fractured mentor figures and fractured father/mother figures. Perhaps that's intentional, but what we know is movies with a bond between master and apprentice are popular (Rocky, SW, Karate Kid, Million Dollar Baby, Devil Wears Prada etc). "I love when they touch on the grey area in the universe" The OT is full of grey areas, and so are the prequels. “And I will NOT be the Last Jedi.” Except Luke didn't form a bond with Rey at all. He wasn't supportive and she didn't trust him. Hence it's a divisive movie.

[@rudyscalisi]

I definitely see the Kurosawa influence in this movie. Rian straight up uses the Rashomon effect on what happened between Luke and Ben in the hut, which is straight up Kurosawa. The whole throne room sequence has samurai vibes. Then the standoff between Luke and Kylo was totally reminiscent of a western standoff. If anything this movie had the most Kurosawa/Western vibes out of the whole ST. We can all agree the ST had no plan but I love all the films in it nonetheless.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Yeah I guess.

[@davidisho13]

55:51 I didn’t realize how much I wanted a Stallone version of Ackbar until I heard this. Fire the shot! haha

[@TheKristianHarloff]

HAhah

[@caigecrampshee3709]

I was hoping to really find out more about WHY Riley and other “fans” of this film like the choices in the movie instead of “it just worked for them”. I really struggle to understand that POV. To me, the movie is chaotic in tone and has a vapid script with no sense of direction. Where TFA failed to deliver “set-ups”, TLJ fails to set-up any delievery (franchise continuation)

[@TheKristianHarloff]

I thought Reilly gave a good reason why he liked it

[@user-kt4cg2fn7l]

Why do you put fans in quotation marks?

[@caigecrampshee3709]

@@user-kt4cg2fn7l Bc I was quoting Reilly. “This movie worked for fans” I didn’t mean anything by it. I’m not looking for a fight. I really have no interests in that stuff. I just want a good conversation. And kristian, yes, once I got through the entire episode he did offer more to his thoughts. Cheers guys!

[@kins1894]

1:07:32 Right there, Luke is in all Jedi attire. Next scene after throwing the saber, he went to change to grumpy Luke garb. So why was he dressed as a Jedi in the first place. Lol

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Yeah, the answer was to fool us.

[@Vulcanerd]

Mark's point about how much Luke went through just to get to the point where he sees it happening all over again... so he runs off to let it happen some more? That just doesn't make any sense. The Empire was awful and ruled the galaxy with an iron fist... so when the First Order comes back with an identical philosophy destroying multiple planets at once (though, sure, Luke probably doesn't know that part b/c he had cut himself off of the Force by then)... Luke runs away? Then when he finds out that Han is dead and Leia's alone? Luke continues to sulk? Ugh, it's just gross. As for it ruining SW, eh, I kinda don't entirely disagree with the sentiment. Now that we have a lot of other properties like the Clone Wars, Mandalorian, etc, people can latch on to other favorite characters, but for the longest time, people's love for SW was so focused around Luke and, now that Luke is dead and that storyline is over, there's no 'well, maybe Luke will come around in the future or maybe he'll come through in some future story.' He's dead, that storyline is done and he went out like a chump.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Agreed and I def don't think it ruined SW

[@Dp_is_Op]

It might have ruined the movie aspect of star wars for awhile.Force awakens and rogue one were such good starts and then it just plummeted like an anchor

[@Vulcanerd]

@@Dp_is_Op That's pretty much sums up how I feel. Sure, TRoS concludes the Skywalker story and I'm sure it takes time to come up with a new idea for a new series of SW movies, but after TLJ and TRoS, it feels like Disney is putting the bulk of their strength into series and non-film projects. I'm sure a full length movie will come eventually, sooner if they explore some one off-type movie or near one-off like a Rogue One or Solo, but a new, full on 3 episode arc of a film? I bet it's at least 5 years away. Which probably means the next such movie is probably close to 10 years from hitting a movie theater. RO is actually great enough that, depending on my mood, cracks into the top 3 of SW films all time and TFA had such potential that I was willing to overlook some massive issues I have with it, namely, the jaw droppingly similar story beats of the original and how Rey could seemingly do everything and wield the Force with such control - something they tried to then 'retcon' by having her accidentally destroy a ship via force lightning in TRoS; see, she's still learning and isn't all powerful! Nm that she destroys the most powerful Sith by the end of the movie, if only Palps could have, you know, maybe stopped lightning when he could see that it was being reflected back at him... Even with the blatant similarities in TFA, they could have used that (and the ideas JJ set up) as a jumping point to a completely creative, original storyline. Or maybe the First Order isn't a thing yet, but a young, burgeoning force wielder, once the padawan of Luke Skywalker among many others at his new Jedi Academy, has strayed and his ambition has set him on the path to domination that has to be quelled before it leads him down a similar path of tyranny as the former Galactic Empire. Maybe make it a personal story and journey of growth where, while Luke can't confront his former padawan out of guilt and shame, he trains Rey in the ways of the Force in the hopes that she may have the strength to confront this... young (possibly Dark Side, but not beholden to Sith tradition) force wielder before he recreates the tragedy of so many Dark Side force users who have come before him. But, on her way there, she crosses paths with a young former cadet in the New Republic army who's become disillusioned by the bureaucracy and politics of the new administration. Or a young, hot shot pilot who wants to join the New Republic fleet b/c he believes their cause is worthy and the former cadet and the hot shot pilot explore philosophical differences in what they see as a failing or potentially successful New Republic, all the while they are trying to track down Luke's fallen padawan. It keeps Luke from being the miserable wreck he turns out to be in the ST and makes the journey far more personal for him and Rey while exploring the ideas about what it means to be a Jedi, what it means to build/rebuild a society that's equitable to all while avoiding the pitfalls typical to politics and nation building. How about that??

[@Dp_is_Op]

@@Vulcanerd I think a point that I hear few mention is the fact that last jedi suffers from a lack of time jump.It takes place right after force awakens

[@Vulcanerd]

@@Dp_is_Op Yeah, when it comes to TLJ, specifically, it doesn't make sense not to have a time jump either. On a micro scale, Rey's continuing power jump makes no sense, on a macro level, how does the First Order get to be 'everywhere' and having taken over the galaxy, seemingly, when they just lost their super weapon which, I assume, a massive chunk of their resources went into building. A massive number of soldiers and officers and other personnel were lost, a massive number of ships stationed there were lost, in terms of morale, they probably should have taken a hit as well. And, yet, like you said, without a time jump after TFW, it makes no sense that not only do they * not * suffer a setback, they have actually taken over.

[@skysamfreeman]

I think that the other issues with the movie would be overlooked it people weren't so split on how Luke was used. Personally, I loved it. I was scared that things would feel stale after TFA. But this really shook it up and I remember walking out of the theater thinking it was great. But then I got on twitter and saw that I was the only one that felt that way lol. I'm not sure if it's because I never attached myself to Luke in any major way, but it didn't bother me that they wrote him like they did. Sometimes idealistic people grow disillusioned over time and lose sight of their beliefs and purpose. I didn't find it offensive. But there's a huge unexplored gap that I think if expanded on in Disney+ will change peoples perspective on this movie. Like The Clone Wars did for the prequels.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thank you for sharing this perspective!

[@rasalpaul4574]

For me is the worst Star Wars movie ever. Big let down, a big punch in the face for me when i saw this movie with my girlfriend and 2 friends, we all were bored to death. Thanks for this video.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Thanks for watching!

[@josephamato2031]

Well said

[@issiahsilva]

It’s definitely the worst Star Wars movie and it gets worse every time I try to watch it

[@chrishodgson8833]

I think I always be on the fence with this film, like Kristain said a great science-fiction film but not a bridge for a trilogy. I do like the force connection with ray and Ben, that really did go deeper into Jedi law.

[@TheKristianHarloff]

Yup!