Rinoa - Ultimecia theory? Impossible!

[@SquareInsider]

Ultimecia is Rinoa from an alternate future where she lost Squall. After being alone for an eternity, she gathers all the sorceress powers throughout time until she has enough power to perform the ultimate spell of Time Compression. This will allow her and Squall to exist together forever, in their own space/time within the Castle, her castle that exists beyond time and space. Squall also made her a promise, "Even if you become the enemy of the world, I will always be your knight." Even n Dissidia when he fights Ultimecia, he says "I am just here to fufill my promise..." Squall's Guardian Force is Griever, which is the Knight of Ultimecia, and the same necklace he wears. It is destiny. Rinoa IS Ultimecia from a timeline where all went wrong. This will always be the truth, and Square knows it, and intended it. Ultimecia would not even exist, know Squall so well, and look just like Rinoa behind all the makeup without it. There is no coincidences in this game. I have understood this forever.

[@Joe_334]

I understand....I am playing through, and saw the scene in Trabia. Her fear of fighting Edea, losing the party, and she says that she felt like she was falling behind, and yes, most definitely Squall's ring, he lets her have it. Those scientists almost sealed her in the same containment as Adel in disc three. If she lost Squall in another cycle, wouldn't that mean that she got stuck in that future as well...Awesome reference to DIssidia as well, because I swear one of her encounter quotes were, "shall we dance...?" One thing is, if this is the case with her being ultimecia, where would her dog, angelo, be other than just a gimmick to keep her active in the party? lol...

[@TheChoktaw]

Hardy Joe maybe Angelo turned into ultimate weapon of tiamat or any of the other monsters in her castle

[@user-bd1yv8gd5x]

MercilessV Ummm no Square said you’re wrong

[@feartheoldblood]

Now that's what love really is

[@user-bd1yv8gd5x]

MercilessV FYI all Japanese animation styles look the same

[@peterxii7230]

I would like to point out something that I hardly see online. Please search on Wikipedia the name Artemisia II of Caria. "She is renowned in history for her extraordinary grief at the death of her husband Mausolus." King Mausolus' symbol was a lion, as shown on his coinage and other artifacts (go to his wiki page and you will see pictures). So Artemisia (Ultimecia?), is famous for GRIEVING her husband who uses lion as his symbol, so much so that she built one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World (Mausoleum at Halicarnassus) to honor and remember him by. Coincidence?

[@EricGornicki]

+peterxii I don't care if this theory is true or not but the informations you brought about Artemisia II are AWESOME! It makes so much sense and adds value to the theory! Thanks for that!

[@Vic2point0]

Well it *has* to be coincidence, because the Ultimania has already stated that sorceresses don't live any longer than other humans. So how could Rinoa live "many generations" ahead of Squall's time to begin with? ;) Griever is also explained in the Ultimania, as a being created using an image in Squall's mind.

[@Vic2point0]

***** The third party company was hired by Square to write and publish the book, and DigiCube was a subsidiary of Square... which all really means that their work has to be revised and approved by Square before it can be deemed official, which it was.

[@peterxii7230]

I'd imagine that a master of time manipulation magic can do something about her own aging process. Plus, its not like game designers could ever make minor errors about the lore of their game right? ;) knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/red-shirt-guy

[@Vic2point0]

peterxii Yeah, but assuming the owners of the intellectual property "were wrong" just to make your favorite game theory sound plausible is a bit much, don't you think? Besides which, there's not yet any *contradiction* between the original game and the Ultimania on this topic, so why complicate it? The point is, you have to make more and more assumptions to make this theory work. And it's not like there aren't *other* objections one could raise. For example, the absurdity of her remembering Griever in the final battle but forgetting WTF *Squall* looks like?

[@AshleyandShelbyGray]

Debated still to this very day. The animators did their job.

[@yuscilfer1429]

Maybe Rinoa is really Ultimecia. Now I have this theory about it. When Squall dies at the hand of Edea at Disc 1, we see Rinoa going for him and calling him. And because of much grieving about Squall's death. Rinoa creates another persona which is Ultimecia, and she absorbs Squall's GF (which is Griever) and got the power of compress of time. And then Ultimecia goes to the past where she can undo the death of Squall, and then disc 2 happens. But the thing about this theory is, Ultimecia didn't actually go the past, but in another parallel dimension where, Squall still lives. And so she finds her another self. So there is two Rinoa on that dimension. And that is where the disc 2 starts. This theory I've have formed is based on all the theory that I've review regarding FF8. Now as you can see, in disc 2, it's like all the fortress, castles are floating in the air. That's because this is in another parallel dimension, which is, in the world where Ultimecia came from, they got no flying things like that. So that confirms that Ultimecia didn't go the past but in another dimension. That also confirms that Squall's GF which is Griever is within Ultimecia all along, because she already absorbs it when Squall's died on her world. Now, Ultimecia thinks that she is in the past, and is jealous of the other Rinoa because supposedly she should be the one who's with Squall. So she try to destroy there relationship. But in the end, got defeated. Now when Squall's kill Ultimecia, memory of the other Squall overlaps his. (Because Griever) And the end where Ultimecia says "Reflect on your childhood" she means that see through the memory of the other Squall. And that's why his seeing the memory of it, seeing Rinoa from the other dimension is actually Ultimecia.

[@onaidraebmar]

wow dude now here's another theory well done 👏👏👏👏👏

[@SaferSephiroth87]

holy shii that actually makes a lot of sense. best theory by far man.

[@danielnalor6825]

The game is left up entirely to interpretation in my opinion, but lets not forget, in Dissidia Final Fantasy all of Ultemecia's weapons are named after Rinoa's, now I'm not saying it's solid proof that they are one and the same but it is an odd coincidence and one that I don't think the developer's put there for no reason. I like to think the game had a happy ending but there are alot clues pointing to the Squall is dead theory, Rinoa is Ultemecia, etc. Again, I believe it's left entirely to interpretation

[@Vic2point0]

To my understanding, Dissidia gives weapons to several characters that originally belonged to other people in the same game said character is from. At any rate, it isn't canon so yeah, doesn't count. Further, the Ultimania has already stated that sorceresses don't live any longer than other humans. So how could Rinoa live "many generations" ahead of Squall's time to begin with? ;) And the Squall is Dead theory is even more unfounded.

[@kevinpissoff5272]

+Vic 2.0 Sorceresses don't die until they pass on their powers... Don't pass them on, you don't die...

[@Bynk333]

I hawe one question. Who is that naked girl statue behind Rinoa in 1:50 And you can see only one CGI Ultimecia animation in the game in 2:11 tree diferent post of Ultimecia. There tree diferent pics of Ultimecia, but you must slowly down as they are on only one frame.

[@angelanebedum1749]

Heres another reason why Rinoa MIGHT be a younger version of Ultemecia that I don't think anyones considered. Its the WINGS. Both her and Ultemcia have them so why not? Every single time her powers wake up, those HUGE wings temporarily make an appearance in their pure white beauty. Even though Rinoas wings are white NOW, whats to say that the OLDER she gets and the more times she uses her powers, that the wings become more solid until they STAY permanently? And seeing how LONG LIVED sorceresses are, what are the chances that as Rinoa has to watch as Squall and everyone else she knows and loves grow old and die, leaving her alone to live an empty and immortal life, that the magic in her DOESN'T start to corrupt her? That the more cortupted she becomes it starts to show in her snow white wings, as they lose their white color and become the pitch black ones we see Ultimecia has? Squall is supposed to be Rinoas knight. Its his duty to keep her grounded to make sure she doesn't go evil or whatever. At least that seems to be what FF8's ancient history says a chosen knight is supposed for their Sorceress. So whats to become of a Sorceress when their knight eventually dies and the Sorceress CAN'T or WON'T find a 'replacement' for them? They probably turn into what Adel and Ultimecia eventually became. Edea has Cid as her knight and HE kept her grounded and sane, but if she hadn't lost her powers to Rinoa, what would have eventually happened to Edea when Cid died of old age? Would she have gone down the path Adel and Ultemecia did, with her body slowly mutating into some kind of monstrosity like Adel and Ultemcias bodies did? Or would she decide, while theres still some humanity left in her, that its time to end things and find a willing/unwilling girl/woman to pass her powers on to so that she can FINALLY die and join Cid in the afterlife?

[@Vic2point0]

Angela Nebedum How do you figure sorceresses live any longer than other people? The Ultimania says this isn't so, and there's nothing in the game to say otherwise.

[@JonatDonat]

Vic 2.0 I think the reason why Ultimecia wanted time compression, is so she could live forever. Also to fashion a world that she is the master.

[@Vic2point0]

JLawlietK Well she (Rinoa) would have to live long enough to *become* Ultimecia, is the problem. She isn't trying to cast time compression until after "many generations" into the future. That's why Rinoa can't be Ultimecia, without us at least tacking on yet another unfounded assumption: that she was conveniently the first sorceress to figure out how to live longer (as if Adel and all those before her hadn't cared to try).

[@angelanebedum1749]

Vic 2.0​ they have to be long lived. Theres the fact that they CAN'T even die from FATAL injuries until they've passed their powers to someone else and when that happens their bodies vaporize into nothing once the power has been passed to someone else. Plus I think another sign of how long lived sorceresses are, you should look at Cid and Edea as an example. The two of them have been together happily married for DECADES, and just by looking at closeups of Cids face, you can see theres signs of old age starting to set in on him with all those wrinkles and worn out old man look he has to him. *lol* then you look at closeups of EDEA. For a woman who SHOULD be as old as her husband is after all these years being married to him, yet SHE looks just as YOUNG and FRESH looking as ever with no physical sign of the middle aged old woman she should be looking like by now. She looks like she could be in her early-mid 20s with the way she looks. *lol* she doesn't even look like shes aged at all since the days Squall and his friends lived in the orphanage with her all those years ago.

[@Vic2point0]

Angela Nebedum "they have to be long lived. Theres the fact that they CAN'T even die from FATAL injuries until they've passed their powers to someone else" Right, but that in conjunction with what the Ultimania says, only means that Rinoa will die right along with the rest of her team but she'll lose her powers first. A lot of people who subscribe to this theory suggest that Rinoa avoided death by just plain refusing to let her powers pass on, but if it were that easy, Ultimecia (or Rinoa, if you insist) wouldn't have died at the end of the game either, correct? She obviously would've much preferred being able to get close to Squall to try and kill him. As for appearance, it would seem sorceresses can indeed alter *that,* considering Adel. Doesn't change what the Ultimania has said about how long they *live* though.

[@Joe_334]

When she said, beyond your imagination, it meant, even though she perished, she still insisted on leaving Squall in that time compression...he started forgetting because ultimecia was still doing shit to him, like what Sephiroth was doing to cloud...That hold died, when RInoa found Squall...

[@TheChoktaw]

if squall kills ultimecia at the end of the game its create a timeshift where he never died and rinoa never became ultimecia.

[@manaquinn5837]

Fine and dandy to explain away a theory. However, most of these comments having these almost condescending and rude tones to people who do use the R=U as their headcanon. It's just..a waste of time? Like say what you wanna say, but when someone wants to take something as their canon of a story, for whatever reason, it doesn't stop you from whatever you believe is canon. The beauty of stories, especially like FF8, is that the imagery can be vague so you are to take what you wanna take from it. I honestly never understood this whole butthurt syndrome to try to explain away someone's interpretation. Besides explaining facts, why do you have to be rude about it? The only reason I can come up with is that you hate it. If you hate it, then you shouldn't be looking at theories because you will always find different opinions and views. Always. Most being opinions that facts will not change. Especially facts that may come from other sources than the game itself because 9 times out of 10 those are written by people who did not actually work on the story or game itself. I liked the video because it gave me a different view on the scenes in the game, but it didn't change how I like to view it. Thanks for putting it together though. c:

[@BoyKagome]

Ultimecia is Squall's original desire realized. Someone who relied completely on themselves and pushed others away. She builds a universe where shes the only one left alive. Shes not Rinoa, shes the end of Squall's original path.

[@KitanaiharE]

Explain Griever then...and why the castle being right where they promised to meet Rinoa is Ultimecia

[@WorldFantasyFinal]

Prince G-MO The castle is not at the orphanage. It's on the sea beatween Centra, Galbadia and Esthar only one chain is attached to the orphanage, but as you can see at 5:30 there are more than one. About Griever, Squall is the "Commander", the chairman, of the Seed. His duty, his destiny is to kill Ultimecia and she knows. She already saw her future: killed by Squall. Her main enemy is him. So, she summons Griever, the most powerful GF. In ITA version she says "Choose and Die. I'll summon the creature you feared the most.".

[@KitanaiharE]

Griever comes from Squall. The only way Ultimecia would have Griever is if she were connected to Squall in some way.

[@WorldFantasyFinal]

Prince G-MO There is a connection. Ultimecia has seen she will be killed by Seeds' Commander. She already knows Squall, infact she tried to kill him many times (through Edea, Adel, Seifer too even if she doesn't control him directly). However she knows Squall, his aim and his fears. That's why she uses Griever.

[@Vic2point0]

Prince G-MO Ultimecia is "many generations" ahead of Rinoa. The Ultimania has confirmed that sorceresses don't live any longer than humans. Ergo, everyone's dead (including Rinoa) before Ultimecia's time.

[@JonatDonat]

WorldFantasyFinal forgive me, but it's been a long time since i last played this game. But nobody else knew about Griever. Griever is only known to Squall and is then told to Rinoa later on in the game. Squall is reclusive so, it probably is difficult to find out about Squall. However, Ultimecia controls time, so hmmm... questions questions... :/

[@moriko07]

I've been reading about Rinoa as Ultimecia for a lifetime, but there's one detail that doesn't add up, and it doesn't concern either the memories or the shots. Ultimecia is a very powerful Witch, who lived in a very distant future compared to our boys, she returned Alone In the Past, at the time of the end of the Great War and passed her powers to Edea. Question: How many, in this setting, of all the characters in the game have the power to move through time? Because Rinoa has never demonstrated such abilities. Indeed, it seems that Edea in passing her powers to her at the end of the second disc, sent her into a coma and it took a set of exceptional aids to save her. Who, on the other hand, has been hunted down, exploited for research, kidnapped, hidden and suffered for the death of the family, even if adopted? We can affirm that the character in question through the protagonist is going to do psychoanalysis work, and he clearly says it "I wanted to see the past to understand, but I can only do it through the eyes of another person I know". In the end Squall and Rinoa, sorry for the spoiler, both survive :) time compression kills you because the 3d human mind is not able to handle a reality where time is not perceived linearly or cyclically but it is compressed in a single instant of time present and eternal. Rinoa saved him, restoring the linearity of time, undoing Ultimecia's spell, just like he saved her in the third CD, finding himself right where they promised: that is, in the flowery meadow. If Squall died, everyone would die, including the plants and animals as the spell affected the entire team and the entire world and there would be no one left on the planet.

[@thicket89]

when I played the game the story line hinted many times that rinoa was the cause of the destruction. I was so confused.

[@Vic2point0]

Much easier to point out the fact that Ultimecia is "many generations" ahead of Squall and party. The game never suggests that sorceresses live any longer than other humans (and indeed the Ultimania confirms that they *don't),* so we have to make an *additional* assumption that Rinoa was conveniently the first sorceress to figure out to how live longer. How? Oh I dunno, we're just supposed to assume this to make the R=U theory work. Also, it's hinted in the game and confirmed in the Ultimania that Griever is drawn from Squall's imagination. So we can't tie him into the R=U theory either. Finally, Idk why people keep insisting those shades of white and "black" are wings; they don't look like wings to me. And you'd think if they were supposed to be wings they'd at least be on *both sides* of Rinoa.

[@aquak9]

+Vic 2.0 Well, I mean if Rinoa really was Ultimecia I don't think it would be a matter of her living long enough. Time travelling is something that can be done if I remember correctly? i played this game a long time ago...

[@Vic2point0]

k krn The only way actual time travel was ever achieved in FF8 was when Ultimecia had begun the time compression spell (when Rinoa and Squall were still alive and in love, all that good stuff). So we'd have to make further assumptions about when and how Rinoa supposedly did this time traveling "after" Ultimecia had been defeated. So it's not really any different from just claiming she was the lucky one who figured out how to live longer.

[@BlueApple1987]

+Vic 2.0 However, they can't die without passing on their powers. She could have easily gone into seclusion... and you know the rest... Edea had normal hair, whereas ultimecia hs white hair with withered black wings.. signifying she is older than most of those sorceresses.. for a reason people did not believe pythonselkan when he said you played as a body double in mgsv. guess what happened.

[@Vic2point0]

BlueApple1987 "However, they can't die without passing on their powers." If you put that and what the Ultimania says together, it only means that Rinoa died right along with the rest of them but her powers passed to someone else beforehand. A sorceress cannot just decide not to pass on their powers; else, Ultimecia herself wouldn't have died at the end of the game, because she very clearly didn't want to die! "She could have easily gone into seclusion..." There's no word from the game exactly how far away she'd have to be from the nearest person, before suddenly the powers just say "Ah screw it! We'll just stay here with you." So it's much more sensible to figure that even if she *tried* to avoid passing her powers on by traveling, well, *any* distance away from other people that it wouldn't work. "Edea had normal hair, whereas ultimecia hs white hair with withered black wings.. signifying she is older than most of those sorceresses.. for a reason" That's all an assumption on your part. She could've had white hair because she willed it, similar to how Adel looked markedly different from the rest. And whatever the reason for wanting her hair to be white (in a world where Edea has some weird pattern on her face and even Zell has a tattoo there), we can't theorize against canon. If the Ultimania says they don't live any longer than other humans, then that's that. All else is trying to argue with the makers of the game themselves.

[@BlueApple1987]

Vic 2.0 Look up my more recent comment. you just proved that rinoa is ultimecia.

[@ryan_deakin]

This theory makes the ending cuts energy where rinoa is glitching out way more creepy

[@professorzoom2360]

why is she glitching out?

[@ryan_deakin]

@@professorzoom2360 you know the cutscene where she is distorted at the end

[@professorzoom2360]

@@ryan_deakin so….i’ve actually never played. i just randomly fell into a rabbit hole of the plot to this game, mostly because of this theory and for some reason is crazy interesting to me all the sudden 😂 so i’ve watched a handful of videos and read a handful of articles and posts, reddit, just some random stuff, so i’m DEFINITELY not an expert on the game or anything…i just love sci-fi / fantasy type stories. BUT i did see the cutscene you are talking about and some of the theories about it, like it seems to alternate between Riona and Ultimicea?? but i was curious what the glitching would mean during that scene ur talking about or what u think

[@ryan_deakin]

@@professorzoom2360 hmmm. Like it symbolises her loss of innocence. Its like as she is distorting, her personality distorted. Or that she is an illusion. The person squall believed her to be was not real

[@professorzoom2360]

@@ryan_deakin daaangg…that’s interesting. i like that 😂 haha i didn’t think of it that way but it 100% could be. i was also thinking maybe he’s remembering 2 different timelines? would that be possible? could he be seeing a timeline in which he died and she turned evil? typically i would think he wouldn’t remember her turning evil since he’s technically dead for that part…but since it’s distorting time, and he is maybe seeing the past, present and future all together, he could be seeing it, or 2 timelines

[@pky7954]

Whether the theory is true or false, nobody can deny that there are elements linking the 2 characters that are too precise to be called coincidences. (the wings, the faces, Griever, Ultimecia using Rinoa's weapons in Dissidia, etc) And even if the devs denied that theory, they linked these 2 characters on purpose for sure. Plus if the theory is true they don't have any interest in revealing it, because that would be a bad image to reveal that Rinoa turns into the main villain, and it would stop people debating on it. I personally choose to believe in that theory because without it Ultimecia would be a very bland antagonist, since we barely know anything about her and meet her only at the end. That theory adds the background ultimecia lacks of

[@justgamebosses999]

Yeah! First: night video, despite the fact of those block notes be a little boring (yeah, I read the description of the video, but anyway...), I really don't think Squall is dead, although this could lead to an epic conclusion. But the most important is: I really like the theory of her be Ultimecia, and Squall became her knight and later her GF, and using him [GF] lost his memories and became an evil sorceress who doesnt know anymore her past. This tragic kind of end has something poetic and very beautiful for me. I mean, it's sad and fasntastic at the same time, after everything they had to go through... they find this end, without hope, and because of Squall feelings for Rinoa he became corrupted and turn around for everything just to stay in her side.

[@Vic2point0]

+peterxii "I already explained how it could be possible," And I've pointed out that it's to the detriment of the theory that you have to keep making up things in the canon just to make the theory work. You have to actively work *against* the canon (when it says sorceresses *don't* live any longer than other humans) and basically write your own fan fiction, then try to use that to support your theory. It's ridiculous. Why not just present the R=U "theory" *as* fan fiction, and stop pretending it's at all plausible? "So if you want to get super technical about how exactly the GF system effects memory loss, the plot-holes can be applied to the main story line too." This is obviously not going to help your theory at all, but what "plot holes" are you referring to?

[@kevinpissoff5272]

I like that you tried to debunk both of those theories, but your evidence is mediocre at best. The strongest argument is the correlation between Ultimecia's speech and the ending scene. They do match up very well, I'll give you that. The only thing we truly know about Ultimecia, is that she lives at some point in the future. Odyne states that it's the distant future where no one alive at that time could exist, but how can any of them truly know when someone who doesn't exist, will exist? Odyne is not a reliable source when it comes to sorceresses. He claims that exorcising sorceresses will rid them of their powers, and doing so is is basically a breeze (when you first meet him at Esthar). But yet, the only way to deal with Rinoa was to try to seal her up like they did Adel (who is a "sorceress" but clearly a man, idk). So any information he gives is speculation at best. (lots of story mishaps in this game I've learned) Considering Griever and the GF memory loss, you still have 2 big holes to fill in debunking this theory. Also, let's look at FFX... If we consider that all the games take place in the same universe (another theory, but just go with it) then we know for a fact that the (possibly) only way for a GF to exist is for someone to willingly become one for someone they have a strong bond with. We can't truly know if Squall came up with the name Griever on his own, or if Griever was already around somehow. We do know that Selphie drew a GF from some monster before the events of the game began, but forgot what it was. That may have been Griever for all we know, but also could've been anything. Other than the people at Balamb Garden, Ultimecia is also the only other person in the game who actually uses a GF, and Rinoa is the only non Garden member to use a GF. (ya, you draw Alexander from Edea on disc 2, but she doesn't use the GF. Maybe Alexander was born of Seifer's soul, leaving him as an emotionless husk, which is why he even agreed to find lunatic pandora for her, but that's a different theory) Another point, we learn that Sorceresses can not actually die until they have passed on their powers. So if Rinoa never passed her powers on to someone, then she would technically never die, and could possibly go on living for thousands of years. (plus, in FFX, we know for a fact that dieing doesn't necessarily mean anything) As for the Squall being dead theory, the evidence you posted at the end could very easily be his version of Heaven or something cheesy like that. Maybe the video of Rinoa pointing at the shooting star before the camera dies could've been her finally moving on past Squalls death and meeting someone new. The next scene could be Squalls heaven where they kiss. Also, I would assume that they would throw a party regardless of who died, considering they just stopped the greatest threat known to their world in in a very long time, for a very long time. I guess with theories, there are wholes no matter what way you go with it. I would encourage you to put some more effort into debunking this and try again sometime. Ooh, also... We know for a fact that Rinoa would be able to fight her future self (Ultimecia) because a couple minutes after the fight, Squall appears in the past at the orphanage where Ultimecia passes her powers on. We also see young Squall in the same scene. So stating that Rinoa couldn't fight her future self is technically false. One last thing to consider... As far as we know, Ellone is the only person ever who has the power to connect people to the past and the future. Rinoa lives in the same time period as, as well as personally knows, her. Given both of their connections to Squall, one can easily theorize that Rinoa used her sorcery to somehow manipulate Ellones power to live much longer.

[@homerman76]

The problem with trying to compare the summon systems in each game is that most games have different established setups for how summons come to be (for instance, the espers/summons of FFVI and FFXII were not created through the same process. Also, Selphie acquired her first summon from a dead monster.) In the case of Griever, Ultimecia actually states that she is creating it from squall's mind (she doesn't say squall specifically just more of a broad term of course, so from someone's mind,) this is something we know she can do, so she does not necessarily have to have had contact with him. In the case of needing to pass on powers to die, the actual statement is that a sorceress must pass their powers in order to pass on peacefully (otherwise, why would Ultemecia even bother bother to pass her powers to Edea, when she could just continue to live on and try again.) It is never stated that they won't die, just that they can't do so peacefully without passing their powers to another (the Ultimania attests to that when it says they can't live longer than a normal human.) In the case of not using GFs, that's extremely circumstantial, I mean we know that people outside the main cast can use GFs (since they talk about how it is something use in Balamb specifically, plus acquiring one with an instructer is a seed exam requirement, and there is an entire research facility built to research and create GFs,) so what's to say that more people can use a GF, but the side effects are the reason most don't, not because of limitations. Idk, not entirely sure what you were trying to get at during this last one, so I may have missed the point, in which case I apologize. In the case of Squall being in his version of Heaven, why would Squall be the only one to have died, I mean if Squall died in disc 1, that's one thing, but Why should he be the only one to have died against Ultimecia. Idk, I just find that to be nonsensical, either they're all dead in that final scene or all alive, saying the scene says Squall specifically is dead because of that last fight is pushing things, especially since it's just meant for dramatic suspense, and to troll us as we hold our breath thinking he may have not survived, then surprise, and happy ending... until you realize that no matter what Ultimecia will eventually happen outside of their lifetime, which means the world will eventually be that bleak existence we see in disc 4 :P

[@Mangomesh]

There's nothing wrong with holding onto the notion that Rinoa is Ultimecia, I find it romantic and highly possible.

[@Vic2point0]

Except that the Ultimania has already stated that sorceresses don't live any longer than other humans. Ergo, Rinoa living "many generations" ahead of Squall and the others wouldn't fit with the actual canon.

[@Mangomesh]

I'm not sure if you know where I'm going with this but, do you remember Shuyin and Lenne from FFX-2? Personally I would have preferred to see Quistis sitting on Ultimecia's throne, waiting for Squall to return to her. However Rinoa did grow on me after a while.

[@Vic2point0]

Mango mesh Nah, I never played X-2. The thing I love about this particular story is that both Squall and Rinoa actually have character arcs if you pay attention to them. And also that it isn't just the guy saving the girl (as it is in almost every other love story), but the two of them saving each other, albeit in very different ways.

[@Mangomesh]

Anyone who knows me thinks FF7 is my favourite, however over the years I've matured and FFVIII has grown on me. The game was beyond its time back in the 90s and undervalued. I love the art design and the idea of an military school for children... I know a bit controversial when I put it like that, but not all children are wanted or get three meals a day (especially on our planet). I still occasionally listen to balamb garden theme and it brings a lot of good memories flooding back.... I Just have to say Ultimania summoning Griever to protect her is just too much of a coincidence.

[@Vic2point0]

Mango mesh We obviously both love this game. It's my favorite FF of all-time and easily in my top five games. As for Griever, page 247 of the Ultimania has this to say: "The witch Ultimecia materializes Griever as a G.F., pulled from an image in Squall's mind, and utilizes him in battle."

[@Vic2point0]

+13Elementguy No, it's not plausible that Ultimecia is Rinoa. And are you seriously denying that the owner of an intellectual property can add to/change the canon of it? You most certainly do *not* have equal right to decide what is/isn't the canon of FF8 than the current owner of this intellectual property, and it's silly of you to imply otherwise. It's not a "theory" that sorceresses age the same as other humans, it is *canon.* And that means that there *must* be some other explanation for her "grey old lady hair" than "She's much older than other humans can live". For example, it's more plausible (because it wouldn't contradict the canon) to say that her magical powers have altered her appearance.

[@FuIICircle]

Squall dies at the end of disk one. The remainder of the game is Squall making up scenarios in his head as he ultimately falls from the parade float to his death.

[@WorldFantasyFinal]

Ahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahah

[@FuIICircle]

squallsdead.com/ This theory is a really good one and my personal favorite. Keep in mind, every theory is as valid as the next. It all comes down to interpretation.

[@WorldFantasyFinal]

midnafan3 This theory is bullshit. I'm not going to open your link. You should read some official guide strategy. Don't invent stupid theory.

[@FuIICircle]

Typical youtuber. Wanting to be heard but never wanting to listen. Good day sir or madam.

[@WorldFantasyFinal]

midnafan3 You can say whatever you want, but you cannot pretend to be serious when you're saying stupid things.

[@Disney65Fan]

Nah Ultimecia isn't Rinoa cause she was there in the battle with the other crew.

[@Vic2point0]

And also because the Ultimania has already stated that sorceresses don't live any longer than other humans. So how could Rinoa live "many generations" ahead of Squall's time to begin with? ;)

[@NickyKhilnani]

+Vic 2.0 it's not "our" Rinoa, it's an alternate timeline's Rinoa. She lives long because Squall never saves her when she's "frozen" after the Ragnorak landing. She is frozen with gfs equipped so they eat away her memory over time. When she awakens she only remembers the promise of meeting the one she loves at an old orphanage so she builds her home there. Years go by and she becomes more depressed every day he doesn't arrive. she starts to hate the world for freezing her and making her lose her love. She vaguely remembers the feeling of happiness and wants to compress time to re-live that moment forever.

[@Vic2point0]

Nicky Khilnani "it's not "our" Rinoa, it's an alternate timeline's Rinoa. She lives long because Squall never saves her when she's "frozen" after the Ragnorak landing." Well this variant of the theory is even *more* unfounded. One could literally say something like this about any two characters. For example, the X-ATM monster in Dollet is really Zell; it's an alternate timeline's Zell, after which Zell decided that a tattoo on the face isn't enough. He eventually had himself transformed into a robotic spider! "She is frozen with gfs equipped so they eat away her memory over time. When she awakens she only remembers the promise of meeting the one she loves at an old orphanage so she builds her home there." How convenient that she remembers this one thing... "Years go by and she becomes more depressed every day he doesn't arrive. she starts to hate the world for freezing her and making her lose her love." She consented to being "frozen", actually. And the issue is still in what the Ultimania says. It doesn't give any exceptions to the rule; it just says that sorceresses don't live any longer than other people. We've no reason to assume that being "frozen" prevents anyone from dying, only that it contains the sorceress' *powers* after they die (of old age presumably). So your version is at least as unfounded if not more, than the common R=U theory.

[@SelphieFairy]

+Vic 2.0 I'm laughing so hard at your reply right now. This is great. I really hate the R=U stuff.

[@Vic2point0]

Leslie Borregard It's still just a whole lot of work, trying to even make this theory seem plausible. You have to add more assumptions to the mix, which means you're working backwards logically. For example, the Ultimania confirms that sorceresses don't live any longer than other humans. You have to say, "Well, maybe she was the exception", or the only slightly better "Maybe she learned how to live longer, being a sorceress who was into time magic". But don't you think most of the *other* sorceresses would have tried to do something like that by now? And we're only imagining that it's possible to do that. Nothing in the game or the Ultimania suggests that it is. It's why a lot of people laugh when this is even *called* a theory, because respectable theories do not ignore probability. If something seems wildly unlikely, it's not promoted as a theory anymore until that changes.

[@georgebarton1582]

1 I really hate this canon not canon bs games movies books are meant to be up to interpretation, thought about from many perspectives its what makes them so fun and interesting. I love that there are theories that squalls dead that rinoa was ultemicia that ultemicia is squall and rinoas daughter I love it.

[@georgebarton1582]

that being said I don't believe rinoa was ultemicia. It just doesn't make enough sense to me. 1 theres nothing in the game that suggest sorceresses live longer then normal. All that is said is that when sorceresses die there power goes to another. That's it that is all that is said about there deaths. No lifespan no immortality no nothing.Just when they die there power goes to another. So in order for Rinoa to be Ultemecia Ultemecia must have lived in a future that's close to squalls and rinoas time frame. close enough that rinoa could still be alive. But the game stats (although not definitively) that the future Ultemeicia lives in no one alive in the present could still be alive then. So what that generally means is theres only 1 option left for rinoa is ultemecia theory. Time compression. In order for Rinoa to be Ultemecia some event has to happen for rinoa to use time compression to go to the future and stay there and become ultemecia.

[@georgebarton1582]

but what event? at the end of ff8 there on garden celebrating. theres no ff82 theres no continuation of the story so as far as we know from that point on they just live there lives to its completion So I end with this In order for Rinoa to be ultimecia time compression has to be involved because its the only way rinoa can still be alive in the time of ultemecia and an unexplained unmentioned event we don't and will not ever know about has to happen to make her use time compression to go into the future and stay there and become ultemecia. It just doesn't make enough sense to me

[@BlueApple1987]

I want you to realize one thing. you have provided the italian translation for the game correct and in there it says she wants to be loved. You are providing us with further proof as to why Ultimecia is doing what she is doing the things in FF8. She wants adoration and love. And her name in the japanese version is artemisia. let's look up something online ok? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemisia_II_of_Caria Prior to watching your video I was %50 sure on Rinoa being Ultimecia, now I am %100 sure.

[@Vic2point0]

No. We don't need the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory to explain Ultimecia's motivations, because she alludes to them in the game itself when she makes her speech at the parade about how she's been "condemned for generations" (and the "generations" part, along with what the Ultimania said, is still problematic for the theory, BTW). This is a vengeful speech, no mistake about it. And similarities between one story and another don't prove anything either, especially in light of the Ultimania telling us that sorceresses don't live any longer than other humans.

[@BlueApple1987]

+Vic 2.0 sorceresses are condemned for generations and rinoa being a sorceress is no exception. Ultimecia died, not the individuals in the public. 'have you no shame? what happened to the ruthless sorceress from your fantasies?' In the eyes of the public, the reputation of the sorceresses still exist. Very likely, they will condemn rinoa at some point in her life before her death. You are contradicting yourself. Also, they can not die without passing on their powers, imagine if she has nobody around to pass on her powers. Similarities between stories don't prove anything? Are you out of your mind? How do you think these guys design/come up with their worlds and characters? On top of it, they share the SAME name idk if you have noticed or not. There is no way they pulled that name out of their asses.

[@Vic2point0]

BlueApple1987 "sorceresses are condemned for generations and rinoa being a sorceress is no exception." The point is that she fixates on this, in her speech, indicating that it's about revenge. "Ultimecia died, not the public." Eh? No one said "the public" died? "'have you no shame? what happened to the ruthless sorceress from your fantasies?'" The standard interpretation of this is that she's getting back at them for what they caused in *her* time period. It's because of Squall's generation and all those between his and hers, that she's been condemned. She was condemned *for generations,* even before she was born, because yes, sorceresses in general were treated worse and worse after that. "Very likely, they will condemn rinoa at some point in her life before her death. You are contradicting yourself." I have no contradicted myself once. But *you* on the other hand, have failed to reconcile the Ultimania's text with your theory! "Also, they can not die without passing on their powers," I responded to this point already, in the other comment. Taken with the Ultimania's text, it only means that Rinoa will die right along with the rest of her crew, but the powers will be passed on beforehand. They do not require her consent to pass on; we saw that much at the ending when Ultimecia died. "imagine if she has nobody around to pass on her powers." I responded to that as well. We have to assume there is some degree of distance between the sorceress and other people that *can* prevent the passing of powers, because nothing in the game indicates that.

[@BlueApple1987]

The Ultimania is saying if they have powers then they're immortal otherwise they have normal lifespans like everyone I have no idea if you actually read ultimania. people who actually did, always say that it is not clearly stated. ( I was told this on various occasions)

[@Vic2point0]

BlueApple1987 No, it says very plainly "A Witch’s (sorceress') lifespan is the same as a normal human’s". And you still haven't explained, if a sorceress can just refuse to give her power up in order to live forever, how Ultimecia died? She very clearly does not want to die until she's at least killed Squall. Again, this is shown to us in the game itself! So on what basis do you ground the implication that a sorceress can avoid death by just plain refusing to give up her powers?

[@Frednighto]

and just saying... at the end of disc 1, when Squall falls from the float, just after we see Rinoa swooping on him, some frames show an weird eye. Do you think it's Rinoa's?

[@Vic2point0]

No, the eye is Edea's. The color matches perfectly, and if you look closely enough, you can see her pupil is a weird shape right before she launches the ice shard at him.

[@corendubose6755]

So Rinoa is Zell's daughter, and Squall is Siefer's descendant?

[@David_Alvarez77]

I think this video does succeed in explaining away some of the key elements of the "Squall is Dead" theory, especially with the reflections about how it is time compression and not Squall's impending brain death that distorts his memories so severely. Yet, I do not think the "Rinoa is Ultimecia" theory is undone by this video whatsoever as the evidence is too circumstantial and could fit easily enough within the parameters of a scenario in which Rinoa really did become the broken-hearted sorceress Ultimecia. Interesting stuff!

[@ViralForceMarketing]

you know..this game makes lot more sense when you read Alberts rewrite of the FF8 script to including this stuff.

[@katherinegarcia7303]

Link please?

[@ViralForceMarketing]

unless i find my like folder..it might be while before i get back ont hat. Katherine Garcia

[@AETHEREALMINDS]

I would also enjoy reading this script.

[@ViralForceMarketing]

alrighty everyone fair warning this may take one or two reads as when it acutaly comes to legit time travel you need to remmber what the fuck happends. forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?428367-Final-Fantasy-VIII-The-Altimate-Rewrite-Part-I&p=9709874#post9709874

[@qoqqoq124]

che stronzi i creatori, hanno lasciato troppi dubbi riguardo la storia e non voglioni neanche dire la verità, ci penserò per tutta la vita xD

[@WorldFantasyFinal]

Matteo Berisha In realtà Nomura ha smentito tutta questa teoria assurda. Poi sulle guide ufficiali non c'è alcun cenno alla "possibilità" che Rinoa sia Artemisia. Quindi puoi metterti l'anima in pace. :)

[@qoqqoq124]

***** i kam lujt kish isha 10 vjec para 12 vite :P

[@asunayuuki1705]

Meh, i will stick with the idea that Ultimecia is not Rinoa/Rhinoa but Squall and Rinoa/Rhinoa's daughter. Would be a nice twist that they killed there future daughter. I mean, she inherits her mother's (Rinoa/Rhinoa's power), it would explain the connection to Griever. It even offers an explanation as why in Dissedia (Not canon i know but still) Ultimecia's unique weapons are named after Rinoa/Rhinoa's. Well, in the end we will all believe what we want anyway. So it doesn't really matter what the truth is one way or the other.

[@MikeTooleK9S]

+Asuna Yuuki Like Greek mythology plus Back to the Future.

[@kennymarotta9924]

dude your video happens too fast and the screen is cluttered with text. i this squall is dead anyways.

[@wenskitomasz]

you hit the nail on the head😀

[@Silverizawa]

1. squall is shooting the most beautiful girl in Balamb Garden, he's flying using drone himself. 2. rinoa is dating a ghost Plot Twist Fin

[@bakabakabaka5935]

1. There is no way in hell rinoa lives that long 2. If rin is ultimecia then wouldn't she have the maelstrom command???

[@kevinpissoff5272]

+bakabakabaka Sorceresses only die after they pass their powers on... If Rinoa never passed her powers on, she theoretically would not die. This is proven after the fight with Ultimecia, when she goes back and passes her powers to Edea.

[@Zeriel00]

+bakabakabaka 1. If time is compressed then she could live forever! 2. Rinoa becomes Ultimesia, not the other way around, Ultimecia could use Maelstrom

[@aquak9]

Kevin pissoff Hmm interesting, I never thought of that being the reason she went back in time to pass her powers on . Another reason for me to believe the R=U theory among other instances in the game .

[@Steviofo]

It just got debunked by the scenario writer.

[@Spacefrisian]

No need to wonder now i guess, Director stated no.

[@captainchippie4454]

At the behest of an increasingly bitter and completely incompetent Square Enix, which is NOT Squaresoft. Take it with a grain of salt. I think the gameplay is enough to argue that this theory has weight to it.

[@williamcortelyou4524]

You are so wrong.

[@TheCrazyNekoGirl2123]

I never thought they were one in the same nor did I event support the squall is dead theroy. The only person ever to be proven dead was Tidus from ten if Squall was actually dead wouldn't he had been see through or making him disappear as he pulls her close or something? I mean really the fact that she had white then black wings would come from all his memories over lapping and his mind trying to compensate for missing pieces with what it would have left which would have been the black wings. That is how the mind works wen we can't remember something perfectly the mind pulls up something to fill in the gaps. This happens a lot when you are trying to tells someone something but your are having a hard time explaining it so you say what it is most like. It may not be entirely accurate no but it fills in the gap. Take going to the doctor for pain and he asks you "what does it feel like" Now there are only a few choices you have burning, aching, and stabbing pain but what it none of those are really what your feeling I deal with this on a daily basis and I say it is burning sorta stabbing ache and i know that makes no sense to most of you but again I filled in the gaps so I hope i made my point understood.