Final Fantasy Theory: Ultimecia is Rinoa and the Origin of Griever

[@finalfantasytheory]

Don't forget to hit that notifications button for all Final Fantasy Theory content!!!!

[@kevin933]

Also, Ultimecia's castle is built where Squall and Rinoa promised to meet

[@Starch1b2c3d4a]

😮

[@kytim89]

The castle has the same Gothic Victorian architecture as Rinoa's home earlier in the game.

[@VGarcia1984]

it was actually built near where Edea’s house or orphanage was located💁🏻‍♀️💯

[@kytim89]

@@VGarcia1984 Both can be true.

[@rondorthecruel124]

That is explained in-game as the importance of the orphanage where they grew up. The party all share a bond at that place, including Squall and Rinoa. In a time-compressed world they may cease to exist completely, and only by believing in both their friends and their own existence would they be able to overcome this and exist. This happens to Squall in the ending after the battle and only by Rinoa believing in him is he rescued. The location was key to their initial entry. So Ultimecia’s castle isn’t necessarily there in actuality, but in a time-compressed world, it is.

[@miguelcano2608]

Ultimecia and Rinoa are the same person the devs just used the GF so much they forgot

[@finalfantasytheory]

EXACTLY lol

[@tattllznl7759]

😆 🤣 😂 underrated comment

[@mrfarax4944]

Spot on😂😂😂😂

[@jinweetbix8693]

😂😂😂

[@HaqiKusanagi]

Best comment.

[@Currosive4Lyfe]

Ohhkay, I just played through this the first time and this game has so much theory crafting, I love it. I agree that Ultimecia and Rinoa are the same. Starting from where Squall dies in space (hence the ending cut scene), Rinoa knows she'll turn into Ultimecia from losing him. She knows Ultimecia warps to Edea when defeated to start a time loop where she never dies. This time when she gets back to the planet and captured though, Rinoa warps the beginning of the game where Squall is in the medic room and she's in the window, actually breaking the first time loop. This one is where Squall doesn't die in space, and they end up stopping Rinoa from turning into Ultimecia. So really, Rinoa is the real hero cause she essentially found a way to break the loop, and it causes Ultimeica to actually trap herself. It's very FF10 though where you're playing the past until you get to the campsite, and then you're finally playing the present. But in 8, you're playing the events over again, but this time, you don't die in space, and you're out of the loop after you're still alive from the space scene. It also bridges how you see him die, but it doesn't happen and the glass shatters just like the time loop. Just like how you see Rinoa buzz in and out of party scene at the end, cause I think the Rinoa at the party is the Rinoa from the future, not the past, starting to cultivate the relationship earlier than projected. I'm just having a hard time placing where they "actually" meet in the first loop if she never intervened. And for Griever not actually being Squall, I think he is. I believe there's 8 bosses in the castle, and 8 main characters if you're counting the Laguna and friends parts. Ultimeica not only reincarnates Squall into a GF, but also reincarnates the rest of her friends for her castle cause she never wanted to lose them.

[@finalfantasytheory]

Love your theory and love you got to experience 8 for the first time!!!

[@Starch1b2c3d4a]

Legend

[@voborny]

Hmmm you know something no one has mentioned yet is the remark that Rinoa makes when they are about to go to the future. Mentioning she's scared that she will disappear.... why would she be scared she would disappear unless she would be encountering herself? Hmmmmmmmm

[@nicholashayes5773]

I think Ultemecia is Julia, Rinoa's mother. I always think about that scene where she plays the piano and talks to Laguna for the first time, and I often ask myself: Why would Square go out of their way to make such a drawn-out scene for a character that is never shown, mentioned, or brought up again for the rest of the game, unless she has something to do with the grand scheme of things? And then there's that red dress...

[@voborny]

Hmmm interesting ideas. Julia is technically Rinoa's mother isn't she? So that could explain why Rinoa and Ultimecia have such a strong resemblance.

[@viktorzeman5202]

Nah, Ultimecia is Angelo. The Rinoa's dog.

[@blindfollower]

@@vobornyThey don’t have any resemblance.

[@misterchubbikins]

Julia was Rinoas mother. Laguna was squalls father. Laguna being lost at war resulted in their love being lost to time. Squall traversed time and space because of his love for rinoa. The laguna julia scene was to demonstrate that rinoa and squall were destined to be together and complete the love that julia and laguna never did.

[@justinsmith2381]

Rinoa's special Sorceress' power is the ability to return or give life to things. Makes sense with Griever.

[@Joe_334]

My silly self really thought that naming Squall's ring in disc 2 would later be an acquired GF.

[@Adragos17]

How does any of that make sense?

[@battlebrother2390]

There is also this one moment ingame (during galbadia gardens attack on balamb garden; right after you safe Rinoa) when Rinoa will ask Squall whats the name of his chain pendant (the silver lion). You can give it a name. And "Griever" will have the very same name during the last fight against Ultimecia. So there is definitely a connection between Squal-Rinoa-Ultimecia-Griever. Also why would the devs bother to make you give it a name? It's just a piece of jewelry, right? I guess the answer is very simple: to make you think about it and form a connection.

[@finalfantasytheory]

Truth!!!

[@Nug2kaizoku]

True, i renamed Griever to some other funny name. And in the boss fight, it turned out to be my funny name 😂

[@mrblank-zh1xy]

Squall's limit breaks: "Fated Circle"....I mean come on.

[@dododimitrov9657]

Also in Square pvp game Ultimicia has Rinoas weapon. Devs gave us so many hits, which is amazing. Love story telling which opens your imagination.

[@jmc2830]

i don't understand how a lead developer could choose to use the name of ring squall gave to renoa as the name for ultimecia's GF then come out an say they aren't related at all... especially considering the end of the game, were ultimecia gives her power to edea proving that time is cyclical in ff8.. also the explanation at the end of disc 2 about GF's effecting memories, that also explains why she doesn't remember squall or anyone else. it don't make no sense for it to be any other way, Ultimecia IS renoa. i don't care what a dev say's or anyone else for that matter. it turns a pretty bland and average final villian into a tragic and interesting character. and since ff8 is already one of my favorite's i'd just prefer to go on thinking this way to make the experience that much better.

[@finalfantasytheory]

Love it!

[@Miriam_J_]

Man, I guess all of you have been using GFs too cause y'all forgot something important. Selphie tells everyone to start writing down what happens in a journal. Rinoa would have had a journal of all of her memories. Unless she threw it away for literally no explainable reason, she would still remember. You can keep thinking this is true, though. It's a pretty cool head canon. It's nothing more than a head canon though, I'm afraid.

[@jmc2830]

@@Miriam_J_ it's not pure head cannon, there is evidence pointing in that direction. for instance, griever. why would ultimecia have a GF named after squalls ring... a ring that he gave to renoa? and this would be a renoa that has been in fractured time for an unknown ages, with a GF that are stated to effect the memories of the user.. so that would be how she forgot. not saying it's 100%, but it's not pure head cannon either.. it's a fairly valid theory.

[@mrblank-zh1xy]

IMHO the dev team backed away from this theory because it's pretty meta and darkens the hyper-idealized female heroine. Not a popular move in Japanese culture..

[@wenskitomasz]

Love this game❤ Agree with you, Rinoa is Ultimecia. For an added theory... what if Griever is actually Seifer. Throughout the game, Seifer was always fighting for Ultimecia. He would have done anything as her night. Maybe Squall got lost in the void of time, died, and never came back/found his body. Seifer would know Rinoa is Ultimecia. And till the end he still fought by her side, loosing to squall for the last time.

[@sammitch524]

I'm replaying ff8, and I just got up to where Rinoa and Squall have the conversation at the orphanage. I actually find it so hard to believe Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia! It feels like theres so many hints in that conversation that just can't mean anything else. Her saying that it will be ok if Squall kills her, and that she'll wait for him at the orpganage. Why else would Ultimecia build her castle there?

[@kineticdyslexic3093]

I mean the other Squall from the other timeline could not keep his promise. Rinoa turned into a monster. But she was defeated second time around, and he found her. So the original timeline is now a celebration.

[@rondorthecruel124]

I don’t think the castle was actually built there, but is placed there due to time compression. Edea’s house is a location the party all holds dear and they all share a connection with it. The key to existing in a time-compressed world is believing in their own and each other’s existence. They believe in the bond they all share which is rooted at that location.

[@azazel166]

In the Japanese version, Ultimecia peers into Squalls mind and brings Griever into reality, she specifically says: "I will summon that which you think is the most powerful, the more you believe it, the greater its strength that will sure make you suffer".

[@finalfantasytheory]

Correct. I did mention that but I based my theory purely on the English translation and some ultimania back story. You are correct however which probably would have helped the English version lol

[@wenskitomasz]

Love this theory. If they do a remake this would be amazing.

[@auronunsent2209]

It actually makes perfect sense. Also with him being that it fits too since the power to make them could also pull harder at the memories and thus what happened happened

[@mT4945]

I will give you the newest and strongest evidence. The magic activation effect changing depending on an enemy or ally. Fuujin, Raijin and Edea have the ally magic activation effects. Sound and color indicating their real intention that they don't want fight squall and. Seifer is the only unique one with mixed effects indicating he is having both enemy/ally intention. Now for the nail in the coffin, All the Sorcerers have enemy magic activation effects...... except for one in 1:40.

[@mandiarmando1]

Totally agree, how could You explain Ultimecia was not a ally in the past?

[@ShinySephiroth1]

For a future video, could you please go over how Eden is a future Garden time traveling to help the party?

[@finalfantasytheory]

I actually saw that being discussed somewhere. Also read it is a ship from the former civilization

[@ShinySephiroth1]

@@finalfantasytheory Ah, I'd never heard that it is from a *past* civilization... interesting!

[@Fauntleroy.]

Honestly "Just WTF is Eden?" could be a cool video topic.

[@mf_________]

My head canon is Rinoa = Ultimecia. If God himself told me otherwise I would try to convince him he was wrong.

[@finalfantasytheory]

lol

[@LaliaNoiseGlass1]

Small correction: You said in the beginning that the creators debunked it, but the guy who debunked it recently made a correction to his statement: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oWnEpIaHpNeGpMk&ab_channel=reibitto

[@shadak1ss]

The dev denying this theory means nothing. Sometime mystery is the better route to keep the discussion going. After my first playthrough the conclusion I came to was rinoa being ultimecia. They're both sorceresses. They both say and do similar things to squall. And the biggest clue squall being junctioned as griever. She absolutely is 100 percent ultimecia. U don't need the creator to confirm it for u make ur own minds up

[@Pikachu-qr4yb]

They actually just un-debunked this theory a few months ago

[@Miriam_J_]

​​@@Pikachu-qr4yb Not necessarily true. He said that it could have been on the mind of one of the other writers, just not his. It wasn't Kitases intention, that is still true. He's just saying a different writer could have been alluding to that. If they ever remake 8 Kitase will definitely be the lead again (like FF7R) and I sincerely doubt there would be anything alluding to them being the same person without the writer who *might* have had this twist in mind.

[@erwinadrados4747]

i am a big fan of this theory ever since

[@finalfantasytheory]

It's a good theory and it helps fill gaps on the weirdness in the game

[@erwinadrados4747]

@@finalfantasytheory correct. in addition, I red a japanese article before that kitase redebunked the R=U theory. he stated there that he doesn't know if the script writers or the developers plans this so this theory is possibly true

[@PrinceoftheVioletFlame]

The way I see it. Even if the original intent wasn't for Rinoa to be Ultimicia. It is such a good theory and it works so well that they should just retcon it and make it an actuality because anything less is a disservice to the game. It makes the villain and the entire story better....

[@erwinadrados4747]

@@PrinceoftheVioletFlame correct. FF8 really deserves to have a remake or sequel.

[@immernochlars]

Maybe iam a Lion.mp3

[@Capcheck]

Whoa mind blown! Totally supports the theory 😅

[@mrbabluep]

How about Squall became Rinoa's fayth, in a way? She grieves him, hence his name - Griever. It would'nt be the first time they carried some not-fully-realised concepts from game to game. The sorceresses actually came from an early draft of FF7 - with certain women carrying the jenova gene. Squall is dead theory -> FFX. I also think theres a parallel with FFvsXIII in how Squall/Noctis is forced to fight his loved one Rinoa/Stella, who has the power of a goddess (Ultimecia/Etro). And notice how the whole supposed dream-world narrative in FFvsXIII is rumored to revolve around alternative/past timelines (where Stella was killed by Noctis, for instance) - it reminiscent of dreams about Laguna in FF8 (but as abway more interesting take imo) Anyway, I'd be super excited if they actually made it unambiguously canon in the remake of ff8.

[@finalfantasytheory]

I tackled the idea that the emperor from FF2 is the god of ff8 and is the reason for the sorceresses. It's one of the newer videos I put out

[@hcnuup]

What I think happened is that they originally wrote the story as Rinoa and Squall being Ultimecia and Griever, but ended up dropping it midway through. Future-me villain is a bit of a tacky trope if you spell it out, and explaining it in-game would be a nightmare. It would be another 30mins of unskippable scenes interfering with general flow. How do you tie all the hints and clues together in the final scene to make for a great reveal that's not forced? If you expose it mid-game, it totally overshadows the overall plot, maybe even (definitely) creates loopholes. I think they figured they can't pull it off properly, so they dropped the concept or in the very least, chose to not explain it. It's tacky if spelled out, but as a discovery it's brilliant.

[@finalfantasytheory]

Who knows really 😂 they could have all been high when creating the story. Still fun game and looking for deeper stories is best with final fantasy 8

[@mrbabluep]

How do you integrate all the hints and make the narrative cohesive? You create an alternative reality - a dream world, which allows the character to explore things not explicitly related to the plot, and explain how they tie in only in final act. They might actually have something like that in mind here to, but all we eventually got, was Laguna's story.

[@rpgrullz]

The creators can debunk whatever they want, Rinoa is Ultimecia.

[@Luzitanium]

or her daughter

[@misterchubbikins]

Right? Who tf are they to say what is and isn't true in the story they wrote?

[@rpgrullz]

@@misterchubbikins in the story they poorly wrote, aka who the actual fck are they?

[@TheGamersState]

I knew about this theory but I hadn't for a second thought that perhaps Griever is Squall. That's actually a good theory!

[@lukasbocek4344]

This video was beyond amazing! Thank you for it. FF VIII was my first FF and I played it like 15 times between 1999 and 2003. I loved it so much. Getting to know all these new pieces of information is just so exciting. Thank you again for all the work you put into making the video 💛

[@finalfantasytheory]

@@lukasbocek4344 I'm glad you liked it!!! Check out the ultimecia is the real winner video!

[@matthewcook6540]

Your theory is my favorite theory and I'm now considering it cannon, lol.

[@12trijavirgo18]

Ultimecia is the Rinoa that didn't get saved in space. Corrupt timeline.

[@davidwong4821]

People who deny the theory that Ultimecia is Rinoa are idiots who ignore the evidence and are in denial. If it's true it makes the story so much more romantic and poignant. And why did she summon Griever, Squall's symbol, and Griever sounds like grieving someone's death or some things. I believe there's evidence Ultimecia is Rinoa. Square-Enix could be lying about it to keep people guessing and a mystery, the game almost wants you to think she is and gives clues like what she says "time does not wait".

[@kytim89]

Rinoa is the only besides Squall to know the name Griever and she wanted her own copy of the ring, or her own version of the Griever Guardian Force.

[@finalfantasytheory]

Very valid statement

[@kytim89]

@@finalfantasytheory Notice Griever has a white lion's mane around his kneck similar to Squall's white lion's mane collar on his coat?

[@BP-dn9nv]

Kind of a shame 8 never got much in the way of sequel material, I feel like they could have addressed this somehow.

[@NatalieAliciaNorment]

I always believed that was the case.

[@redmage777]

One thing I Noticed, (And Never heard Mentioned) is Ultimecia pre-battle speech she says "SeeD" six times, once for each of her opponents, Including Rinoa. It looks like she is counting all the SeeD in the crowd before her and sees Rinoa as just another SeeD.

[@finalfantasytheory]

Possible. Possible ultimecia forgot she was rinoa. Sadly the creators didn't flesh her out enough and we fans had to fill in the gaps ourselves

[@dongodongo12]

i find it amusing that just last week i beat this game finally

[@finalfantasytheory]

It's a good game! May not be the best one but it is still great!!!

[@ValyeriasCorner]

i knew of the Squall id dead therory but never heard this one! its an interesting take on her too :)

[@NeroAM85]

Cannon of not now that you said it it makes perfect sense!

[@BCOG1691]

the creators already said that it can't be but they are missing a goldmine story here. if rinoa is ultimecia, then square leaps out away from the cliche villain orgins.

[@finalfantasytheory]

they are missing out on a goldmine! It's a great theory and at least it doesn't involve a crystal lol

[@Miriam_J_]

What? A villain that is a main character from the future isn't anything new lmao

[@jamierose6046]

Some interesting points you mention that I haven't heard others bring up. I can see it being possible and also making sense, still not 100% convinced but making me think more about it anyway haha Really enjoying your theory vids! Have you heard the theory that the worlds of FFIII/VIII are the same just separated by maaaaany years?

[@finalfantasytheory]

I have not heard that one

[@ShinySephiroth1]

Oh, wow... I'd completely forgotten about the FFIII-VIII theory! Wow, that brings me back to early 2000s GameFAQs forum days.

[@mrbabluep]

Kitase actually backtracked his statement about the theory not being true - kzbin.info/www/bejne/oWnEpIaHpNeGpMk

[@AlphaDreamLife]

I oove that Theorie it makes the whole gane first time round for me.

[@jewellcleveland2226]

If they make a remake of FF8, I would find it pretty interesting for Rinoa to be an Ultimecia (but in a different timeline. Like how FFVII’s remake is another timeline vs the FFVII original)

[@Chris_P_Bacon62]

I've always found the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory very intriguing, but unfortunately, I couldn't ever bring myself to believe it. It'd be cool if it were true, though. However, I've always been open to the possibility that Ultimecia might be Squall and Rinoa's daughter or granddaughter. I know she lives generations in the future, but we don't know exactly how many generations. As for Ultimecia's age, even the developers don't know because it's irrelevant to the story, but she looks like she could be anywhere from 28 to 60

[@mrmosty5167]

I've heard this theory before but love your simple explanation of it. Always wondered though...is it Ulti-MESS-ia or Ulti-MEESH-a? I like the second because it rolls off the tongue better

[@finalfantasytheory]

I basically summed up the theory. Since it was made before me, I didn't want to go super detailed as if it were my own theory. And the OG dissadia goes by ulti-meesh-a

[@ishouldbesleeping123]

I really wish Square would’ve backed this. Such a missed opportunity. I’ve been playing this game for the last 25 years and it feels so obvious to me. This would tie together the weaker convoluted pieces of FF8’s story and give so much more meaning to it and the game’s big bad in my opinion. Square has always struggled somewhat with their writing and storytelling and this just feels silly to ignore the not so subtle clues. Square’s games are known for being fun to play but with stories that are confusing and hard to follow. Almost feels like this was their original intention and someone in charge said “no” at some point in its development because Rinoa as Ultimecia is too dark and they needed FF8 to be a lighter game than 7. This was and forever shall be my interpretation of the story. Ultimecia is Rinoa’s self-fulfilling prophecy. What she feared she’d become. Whatever you name Squall’s ring IS her literal GF. It is obvious. I love you, Square but if your official canon is that this game’s Sephiroth is a random disconnected hateful villain from the future no one knows anything about and isn’t introduced until Disc 3, you should be embarrassed.

[@Luzitanium]

what if Ultimecia is the daughter of Rinoa and Squall in the Future??

[@finalfantasytheory]

@@Luzitanium plausible. Looks like rinoa and has connection to griever

[@ArrosRaikou]

This was my head canon as a child

[@Joe_334]

There is always some higher power in these FF games. I really thought Kefka was corrupted because the Magic infused into him was becoming sentient through him becoming what he did in the final battle...

[@Joe_334]

Ultimecia's must have had her power for a long tme because she grew black wings. You know how Adel's body was corrupted from containing the sorceress magic for too long.

[@yonesobi]

YoneTTEBAYO sir but thank you very much granting my request :D would replaying this wonderful game again on the future

[@ultrapowerlevel]

Just gonna add some more hints which make Rinoa no brainer Ultimecia aside from the common known ones. First off starting with denying the producer claim. 1 People always qoute half the post from producer. He denied it initially but then upon closer thinking, he did admit that he wasn't the writer and cannot comment on whether the similarities between Rinoa and Ultimecia were intentional or not. 2 Ultimecia uses Apocalypse in FF8 and Dissidia NT. Rinoa uses Apocalypse in Dissidia NT... still not surprised? They use the exact same weapons too. They are also both the same Marksmen class. brruuuh like bruuuuuh 3 I'm amazed no one brings this one up. Before Squall, Rinoa really liked Siefer. And said "Just being with him made her feel like she can take on the world" aka also feeling protected. Ding Ding... for some reason out of all the people, Ultimecia even though she's lost her memories (cuz doesn't recognize Squall), subconciously choses Siefer out of all the people to be her knight to protect her. Likely because Ultimecia (Rinoa's) tastes about men still work the same way as they did even though she had forgotten her past. 4 For those who don't know, in some cultures we have this trend of love stories where the lover has to kill his beloved. Squall and Rinoa both kill each other over and over in a tragic "Fated Circle" should I add. Ultimecia/Rinoa doesn't kill Squall but brings him to near death experience 2x, once when ice sharding him via Edea then healing him, 2nd time in game's ending then saving him via Rinoa> Squall kills Ultimecia (Rinoa) with his team mates only to repeat the cycle where she ends up giving her powers to past Edea "I cannot vanish just yet"

[@HobbyRex]

Theory: Ultimecia is from Mortal Kombat universe.

[@WarrenValion]

So Kitase actually retracted his statement on debunking this theory, it's alive boys.

[@DiddyCanFly]

I can shed some light on this theory.

[@drectanbns266]

Makes more sense then the dumb. The entire game is just squall dying, and the point people use is how Rinoa went from liking Seifer to, having feeling for squall..completely cutting out the time they spent and the fact...you know SEIFER HAD JUST TRIED TO KILL HER.

[@finalfantasytheory]

well ya know girls love a bad boy, even if they try to kill them lol but yea, I agree

[@MavisRecon]

There is WAY more to the Squall is dead theory than whatever you are going on about. I've never even heard that used as a piece of evidence for it before, and I'm not even sure it could be. Maybe you just explained it poorly, IDK, but the Squall is dead theory stems from way more things that suggest he is dead: such as waking up later from the giant icicle piercing his chest without a scratch and being confusd about it--or the entire ending of the game with Squall's life flashing before his eyes in a DMT trip and then ultimately dying in the very last shot. Or Rinoa's whole valkyrie trope, including that being the name of one of her weapons, and her being the last thing holding Squall when he finally does die. There's even more than all I have mentioned here, and you're free to debunk the theory and all, but my God, that was a pretty poor attempt at it.

[@qwerty6789x]

this is still unanswered since 90s😅 but the Wing is a clue? somehow becomes black wing and Griever

[@rondorthecruel124]

I’ve always appreciated how many things can tie this theory together, but can’t bring myself to believe it because it makes me too sad for Rinoa 😢 I just want them to defeat the evil sorceress, not imagine the centuries of living on after all her friends and dog all pass, and just live happily ever after 😂

[@annpenso7299]

Very reasonable theory

[@BoyKagome]

I think this misses the point, Ultimecia exist as the realization of what Squall's wants at the start of the game and where that path leads. Trading friends for solitude and power. If Squall never opened up, he would become someone just like Ultimecia. Remember what happens to Squall at the end of the game? He tries to overcome the desert with nothing but his strength - to prove to Elone he can do it on his own. And it ends up damn near killing him.

[@finalfantasytheory]

I disagree about the desert. Remember Laguna told the party to concentrate on each other when traveling through the time compressed world so they wouldn't be lost. That's how he ended up in the past, overshot his friends by a decade. Then he just got lost in time. Rinoa, who possesses the power of Edea, who got her power from Ultimecia and an unknown sorceress, gave her the power to find Squall and bring him back to the present.

[@hostiensis1271]

If it is true, it could explain why Seifer turns side so easily : he is loyal to Linoa.

[@Peter_1986]

Her name is Rinoa.

[@karlos_infamous]

If Rinoa is Ultimecia, why do they have different accent? Like in sentences, Ultimecia replaces the hard “c” with “k” like “kurse, lokusts, akross, kompression, krusade” while Rinoa’s spelling of words are correct.

[@finalfantasytheory]

That was an American addition in translation. The Japanese she isn't russian lol. Look at the dissadia games, no russian

[@yelnats24]

You should drop the facial feature comparison. In the original version, Rinoa's face is not only similar to Ultimecia but also to Edea, Ellone, and Selphie. Moreover, Rinoa do not has widow peak like Ultimecia, Rinoa do not has pointy ears like Ultimecia. Their facial features in 3D models of remastered version as well as in Dissidia (both NT and OO) are different (for starter, Rinoa's face is rounder than Ultimecia's face), they also have different voice. Don't you think smart dog like Angelo would have notice if R=U from the smell? The Japanese version as well as Ultimania guide book released by Square Enix made it clear that Griever is newly created and Ultimecia create it by drawing from Squall's mind during that battle. Imo, R=U theory could sound more credible if it drop the deeply flawed facial feature sub-theory and the officially disproved Griever sub-theory. But........ In Dissidia Opera Omnia, Ultimecia reveal her background as lonely child at the edge of the future, born as an evil sorceress.

[@lestaari-eh6qv]

What if it turns out that Ultimecia is the daughter of Rinoa and Squall? Like squall who is always disturbed by the existence of Laguna, in the end everything is just a time loop that can stop if Rinoa and Squall are not together.

[@yelnats24]

@@lestaari-eh6qv Ultimecia is from distant future, it is possible that Ultimecia is their descendant, but daughter is too close.

[@Miriam_J_]

So much stretching has to be done for this theory to work, I just can't believe it. A lot of people who believe this theory also believe that FF8 is too confusing, but that honestly doesn't make sense to me. Rinoa being Ultimecia has so many gaps in its logic that it would be even more confusing that her just being an evil sorseress. The video creator also admitted to thinking Squall hated Rinoa until she was possessed near the end, which is just laughable. Lets me know that no one should be listening to this guy.

[@axlefoley6330]

I like the theory and I can see where it comes from but I’m afraid I have to be a contrarian. While Rinoa and Ultimecia do share some facial features, look at the eyes, not the colour but around their eyes the shape is completely different. Also if we leave out the eyes she shares some facial features with Quistis and Selphie as well as Edea. So using some very superficial similarities between maybe shouldn’t be taken into consideration. The other piece of evidence lies in the game itself. We all know it was extremely poorly translated to point it the systems confused a lot of people so we really shouldn’t use the english translation of the game for any sort of evidence. However there are somethings that do point to this theory being the case I will concede. Ultimately though I think it is a fun theory. Also FF8 is my favourite of all time, I know I’m probably alone in that but I don’t care. My point is I’ve thought through this game, including its themes and such, more than most.

[@xebatansis]

Gray hair and yellow eyes? Rinoa has been norted.

[@doodoo7207]

But why square say ultimecia is not riona

[@finalfantasytheory]

because they didn't think of it and don't want to give credit to fans coming up with a better story lol

[@coreytoomey7579]

Business/IP reasons. Making Rinoa a villain would destroy her ability to make revenue.

[@barbarianstrong8687]

In the original Japanese version and certain translations , Ultimecia states that she is going to probe their minds and use their fears to destroy them. Hence Griever. There's no evidence that Griever is a real GF.

[@finalfantasytheory]

i mentioned that. but i based it off the english translation.

[@peterfabell154]

I love these videos because I never actually finished FF8 (just didn’t like Squall very much), so it’s interesting to hear how they might tie into the rest of the universe. I’ve always believed there would be a clever way to tie in all the games to the same world accurately (unlike 14, which does so dimensionally). I even had a fanfic planned that would use the main character of tactics advance to jump through time so you could see how everything tied together. Glad to see someone else is coming up with crazy theories!

[@gysahlfields7506]

The Ultimecia is Rinoa theory destroys the masterpiece that is FFVIII as it doesn't make sense in a deeper level.

[@finalfantasytheory]

8 is not a masterpiece of story. It's very confusing and the pace is like someone did crack. It's a good game but the story is not on par with other final fantasy entries due to how it's told. Lot of lazy plots like the memory thing with GF, the randomness of species that aren't even remotely mentioned until after Squall is stabbed, how he goes from hating her in his inner monologue to suddenly loving her after she gets possessed by Ultimecia. It's just convoluted. Dont get me wrong, I love 8 but I can also be honest about its flaws.

[@Miriam_J_]

​​@@finalfantasytheory Man, I just didn't interpret this game the same way you did at all. You really think Squall only started to like Rinoa when she got possessed? Not only that, but you think he HATED her until that point? Man, what a weird way to view this story, no wonder you don't like it. I wouldn't either if I missed the point of his character and thought Squall was an edgelord who hated everyone. Throws away all of your credibility. Can't believe I gave your video the time of day now. I don't think this game is a masterpiece or anything, no where near my favorite FF game, but god danm that was so stupid to read

[@finalfantasytheory]

@@Miriam_J_ at no point did I say Squall hated Rinoa. This theory is literally about them two and their love. You clearly "didn't give the video the time of the day" if you missed that. If you can't be respectful to people then don't comment.

[@RyanPerfect]

​@@finalfantasytheory Hey, GUY! Have some Blanking RESPECT! YOU Obviously did not "get" who Squall was, and it's a type of realness, that the progression isn't like other regular fake synthesized storylines in FF. It's like reality, and reality is often wack, like life itself/reality is trippin on crack. It's SUPPOSED to be like that! You ever hear a politician (Liberal extremist) who is completely deluded and out of touch, because they "just don't get it." That, is you! (for the most part!) You remind me of the Q in Star Trek, when Data says to Captain Picard: "How can the Q handle time and space soo well, and us soo poorly?" You seem to know the story well, but you don't understand the story, the people in the story, or the reasons as to why, and what true unconditional love is, and what it's TRUE power is, and how that power and that love transcends time and space!

[@JuliustheGreat-b1v]

Square officially stated that Rinoa and Ultimecia are not the same person.

[@finalfantasytheory]

And?

[@JuliustheGreat-b1v]

@@finalfantasytheory "Enjoy the video and leave your comments below!"

[@kytim89]

Rinoa has a weapon called "cardinal" that has a design aesthetic to Ultimecia.

[@gourdy6297]

this guy is driving me crazy he keeps going back and forth between how I say ultimicia and ultimeshia

[@finalfantasytheory]

Ulti-me-see-a or ulti-mesh-a?

[@shadak1ss]

The Canon story is what many of us theorized. Squall dies. Rinoa becomes highly emotional and susceptible to future influence. Time compression allows the possession of potential sorceresses of which Ultimecia is the only one ever to achieve it meaning she is the only being in existence in the future. Her memories are fragmented so badly having had squall junctioned to her for many centuries. Ultimecia and rinoa are NOT the same conscience however. Rinoa is the vessel but she still is from different time density.

[@blindfollower]

Ultimecia looks more like Quistis than Rinoa.

[@Gian-g6o]

Ultimecia is actually God and Rinoa is God's child Gian ✌

[@peropero2208]

I wish I could just believe some theories without knowing that they got debunked

[@Butschrick]

I used to call the dog of Riona Fart.

[@kyler247]

Maybe I'm a Lion

[@IYPITWL]

This game finally made me stop hemming and cement FF8 as my fav final fantasy. This game is on par with Morrowind as greatest game story of all time.

[@finalfantasytheory]

It's a good story, does have illogical gaps that require sequencing haha but that's what keeps the theory business in business

[@RyanPerfect]

@@finalfantasytheory Dude, Shut your ***king mouth! Your lack of understanding does not mean you can claim untrue things like, "illogical gaps." Stop making excuses for your ineptitude!

[@onlinecitizen3266]

Why do fan theories need to be so depressing. 1) Squall dies 2) Rinoa is evil. Yall just hate happily ever after

[@onlinecitizen3266]

Also, Laguna, President of Esthar knows that Rinoa went through time to save the world, might tame the Sorceress hatred, at least in Rinoa's lifetime. And let's not forget the ending sequence to the actual game showing them happy, flying around in garden, spreading flowers and peace. I came up with those points in 30 seconds and it's at least as compelling as this silly fan theory.

[@finalfantasytheory]

@@onlinecitizen3266 if you can't handle fan theories then stay off the Internet. Secondly, I have many theories, not all dark, thirdly, ending on a good note doesn't mean it doesn't get bad. Look at final fantasy 10 after x-2 story, goes super depressing and it's canon

[@luiscruz3261]

There is no connection or evidence to imply this.

[@finalfantasytheory]

There is actually a lot of evidence

[@patrickt49]

Yoshiniro Kitase already said they're not the same person.

[@RyanPerfect]

@@patrickt49 try doing your Actual homework :)

[@tattllznl7759]

Griever is Angelo 😅 jkjk

[@MMCV963]

Dont see the resemblance between the two personnaly.

[@ben_sisko2149]

Nomura himself (he's the one that created the character) stated that Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia. He said this outright... and yet people keep telling this theory over and over 🤣 PS: if you want the source, I took it from the book "The Legend of Final Fantasy VIII" by Remi Lopez. Here they talk a ton about this theories.

[@finalfantasytheory]

I strongly recommend you watch an entire video before commenting because you make yourself look very ignorant which you have done today. See if you had bothered to do more than just read the title of the video you would have heard me say during the video that the creators of 8 have gone on record and said this is not the case. I feel sorry for you, that you have such limited self-esteem that you feel the need to find creators and attack their videos when you don't even watch the video you're trying to criticize. Have a great day!

[@Adragos17]

These are really weak arguments for Rinoa to be Ultimecia 🤕😵‍💫🤬

[@finalfantasytheory]

@@Adragos17 they aren't. You just lack mental computation

[@Adragos17]

@@finalfantasytheory So there is nothing within the game Lore to Suggest Rinoa is Ultimecia. It makes more sense for Hyne lore wise to be the one behind all of the sorceresses powers and ultimately interested in Time Compression. He has a motive to want to reset all of humanity/the world, since he isnt pleased with what he created. And he'd be the only who could survive such a thing. You suggesting Ultimecia pulls Griever out based on a conversation Rinoa had with him i find unrelated since it's explained within game that Ultimecia's Pulls it from Squalls mind and she CREATES Griever. She also junctions herself to Griever. Something Hyne alone can only do, junctioning himself to humans, not humans, to Hyne. Also the sorceresses are said to be a descendant of Hyne and didnt start showing up till his trickery with his body escape from the war. and Also during the time compression they all get sent BACK in time and we have no idea,, lore wise, how Ultimecia came to be or who she is exactly. Also referencing Rinoa's conversation with Squall in Ragnorak as a basis for her motivation for time compression is weak in my opinion because the goal of the scene is to show human elements of vulnerability, fear, and prejudice. When humans face a situation like that is common for us to want to have that moment last for ever and not move on. You even said yourself during the video " we can assume... we can assume". Alot of the assumptions arent based on lore within the game. Ill end with this question. If Rinoa travels with Squall and the team THROUGH time to the future. Rinoa is displaced in that time line thus being removed from the time ( as she's transported to the future with everyone else) an wont be present in the past or future TO BECOME Ultimecia. It's a completely different sorceress. I'd say that the strongest argument i have seen for Rinoa to be Ultimecia is the way Ultimecia casts magic the way Ally - Turned Enemies Casts magic. Like Seifer and Edea. Ultimecia casts magic the way they do implying Ultimecia might have once been an ally. But simply saying Rinoa is Ultimecia because of the ring conversation, their promise to meet in the field, and Ultimecia's castle being behind The Matron's House, and Rinoa wants to "freeze time" because she's scared of judgement? I consider those argument's weak as far as the story goes in leau of other Lore and for the simple Fact Rinoa Goes with Squall and the Team through time to face Ultimecia.

[@ishouldbesleeping123]

I think the problem is the LACK of canon lore provided in the game. Some of these points you’re making I have not found in the game’s dialogue. Where in FF8 does it explain that the concept of Griever was pulled from Squall’s mind and created? Where in the game does it give any specific details on Hyne’s ability to junction? Where in the game does it explain the rules for how people are displaced in the concept of Time Compression making it impossible for a younger Rinoa to not coexist with her future self? The connections and motivation for Ultimecia being Rinoa’s self-fulfilling prophecy feel obvious and plausible. And if not, the alternative of her actually being Hyne based on the information we are provided in-game feels unlikely. Bottom line: If the game’s official canon is that this story’s “Sephiroth” is essentially a random sorceress no one knows anything about, has no meaningful backstory provided whatsoever, provides no meaningful explanation for ending the world, and is not even introduced until Disc 3, that is TERRIBLE writing. For lore to be credible it needs to be either provided in the game or as a compendium published by SquareEnix themselves. If this exists, please share.

[@Adragos17]

Why in the world do people keep thinking Ultimecia and Rinoa are the same person!??!? They are NOT!

[@gourdy6297]

ugh rebirth sorry hate the game