Riot Vanguard Disaster - Is a Kernel-Level Anti-Cheat safe? - The Four Horsemen S3E6 (ft Yasukeh)

[@connoro842]

Who knew Vanguard would be such an effective marketing campaign for Dota 2

[@shokenhk]

the thing is a lot of players decided to leave dota at some time and started playing league and fell in love it, but now they can't play league and don't wanna play dota either

[@jjqq4116]

CS 3rd party has the same type of anti cheat.

[@semafreak]

@@shokenhk Yeah right... LMAO

[@agreen182]

I didn’t think anything would actually be able to make me stop playing league, but riot did it. Never will as long as vanguard exists

[@liamwxyz3114]

See ya in a week

[@joaorodrigues8853]

Same. Been playing Dota, it is not bad

[@treynguyen1236]

​@@liamwxyz3114 not everyone is addicted to league mate

[@SauceAppleEater_2885]

@treynguyen1236 and even those that are addicted: there is "i will blow half my wage on cocaine" addiction and "can i sniff a line in exchange for deepthroating your knob" addiction.

[@lamaskfish]

Same here lol, I finally stop playing league

[@pierce_grossman]

Riot is now (and has been for a good amount of time) doing anything BUT improving the game. Fuck that company, they basically got lucky with the game and ran it to the ground. This case of lost potential should be investigated.

[@Bozothcow]

Valve sweating in the background:

[@zebnemma]

Yes I was just thinking about that too. As I played League for 11 years, started playing in 2013. I've had many years to notice how Riot is handling the game. And for at least 8 out of those 11 years I felt like Riot just let the game stay stagnant, barely any effort beyond bare minimum. The biggest effort I ever saw from them was when they redid the whole summoners rift map. That's about it. I always wanted them to make League 2.0 and redo the game from scratch, but they made a shitty mobile version instead... And them deleting old "unpopular" maps instead of revamping them. RIP Twisted Treeline, RIP Dominion. ( Dominion I missed personally) Just shows they never cared about the gaming experience, they became very lazy and complacent after the first few years of the games existence. But that should have been the time where they invested the most time in keeping the game fresh, you know? Like obviously the first few years they are just working to get the game popular and have a stable base, but then it did become insanely popular, but then they didn't do anything with that success??? They just chose to stay in phase 1 forever, never going on to phase 2 and beyond where they revamp the game to the next level. It's absolutely a case of wasted potential.

[@pierce_grossman]

@@zebnemma Spot-on.

[@noaffiliation-x8w]

Legit stopped me from playing league because I'm not having that shit on my computer. Played it since season 2, now switched to other games and hobbies.

[@wwjccsd]

Played since season 1, there’s quite literally every other type of entertainment available that riot is competing against.

[@clarkecorvo2692]

yeah, i stopped playing a few months before the announcement and sometimes thought about reinstalling it for the occasional aram, but vanguard was the nail in the coffin.

[@lamaskfish]

Same here, I just quit lol

[@LtChachee]

Same, and started at same time too

[@djbcubed]

Riot saying, "Vanguard has not bricked any computers" while blaming LS for not having his BIOs settings perfectly setup is a peak Riot moment. Of course programs have the ability to check these settings but Riot just can't help but victim blame and refuse to admit their constant mistakes. What a joke of a company, honestly I'm glad cause if they were even half decent people I would still be addicted to that shithole.

[@caderush2627]

also like to believe ls has more tech knowledge than the average gamer too. 100% agree with richard most people dont actually know how to fix this issue. def not worth the risk to play a few arams a week.

[@justin9744]

I mean the game is good.

[@djbcubed]

@@justin9744 it used to be so much better you have no idea, the trajectory has been downhill for YEARS.

[@solitudesf8111]

@@justin9744 yeah, but the software product is beyond garbage

[@Soren59]

@@djbcubed Yeup, it's gotten progressively worse since around S5

[@m4ng4n]

My problem with vanguard is getting kernel privilege is no longer a matter of OS security, you just need a vanguard vulnerability and boom, Mirai but 100x larger. Track record doesn't favor Riot either: it's been breached multiple times through different vectors and solving the DDoS problem at KR servers took them a whole lot of time, even disrupting LCK live matches. Their client is spaghetti, their netsec is laughable, am I supposed to trust installing Vanguard doesnt make my computer more vulnerable?

[@flodoe8164]

Look at razer. When have they ever fixed their Driver Vulns 😂😂😂

[@m4ng4n]

@@flodoe8164 yea that's some shit

[@alangrygar8562]

well said

[@c4ptchunk]

Riot has determined you to be a cheater or a bot lol

[@m4ng4n]

@@c4ptchunk eh??

[@CxerRy96]

Monte doing the factor ad meanwhile Richard and Thorin trying not to burst laughing lol

[@PixelKatana]

That was the best part.

[@jared1153]

I have no clue why but every single time they do this, it’s always funny.

[@potowogreedo]

Delicious protein shake with semen50

[@mongolidp]

Amazing episode. I especially liked how Yasukeh mentioned that the player base have gotten lesser after the vanguard implementation. I myself stopped playing at the same time so it's nice to see that many players don't accept this.

[@mrcoconut7568]

It's so hard to explain to non-technical people how Kernel is at the "lowest levels" and that means it has the "highest level of access".

[@wwjccsd]

Yeah pyramid Most access at the bottom but largest area (access)

[@vez3834]

Just say that the closer you are to the kernel or core, the more access you have. Surface level stuff like Solitaire doesn't need much info about your PC to operate. Analogies to non-technical people don't need to be 100% accurate. Just optimize trying to get your point across succinctly and in a way that it is easy to understand.

[@eulyer3722]

And so hard for you to understand that windows doesn't allow kernel third parties to conflict with the OS

[@seancoco]

Iioi9iiii​@@vez3834

[@NwinDii]

Use depth. It sinks its roots into the deepest parts and sees and touches things they can't even see with admin privileges.

[@DodgySmalls]

Just chiming in with a comment that won't be removed by moderators. :) I didn't install vanguard, but a lot of my friends did. All of them but one experienced at least one-two notable problems with their installs, and one of them DID have his windows installation bricked. Something substantial was damaged about the boot partition, or the drive itself, to the point where even when he brought it into a computer shop, they weren't able to recover the data. I'm sure it didn't actually 'wipe out his drive' in entirety, but it did enough damage that clearly the basic techniques you might find someone using at a local shop to do data recovery no longer worked. And as they mention in the video, he did lose access to important files he used for his work from home job, which has probably caused him quite the struggle over the last few weeks (the nature of his job is that everyone manages a bunch of files that aren't in a repository like in software). So yeah, Vanguard's shoddy implementation has definitely caused outright damages that I believe they should be liable for.

[@craneteam87]

the people willing to give up their computer security for *maybe* fewer cheaters are the same people who said the patriot act wasnt that bad as long as you werent doing anything wrong

[@Bozothcow]

I don't have anything to hide! Why should I care that the US government is listening to my private conversations with my family about their current issues and struggles? Why should I care that I'm being recorded at my most vulnerable moments?

[@SiMeGamer]

If you can afford a separate computer that all you do on is play League (and maybe other Kernel level multiplayer games) then I don't think it's a problem even if there is a breach. So some people that are willing can just do that and they'll be fine.

[@dr.sbrule5817]

I've played league since season 1/2, probably 30000+ hours at this point I have no clue. I can't recall a single instance of cheating... I'm sure I've encountered a couple scripters over that time but none I remember. Absurd anyone could try to justify this invasive piece of malware to solve a non-issue

[@yiplatino]

@@SiMeGamer it's deeply inconvenient. What about if I want to listen to podcasts or music while I play, or do other tasks? Are those being listened to? I do not want to have to think about that... I'm just trying to play a game...

[@SiMeGamer]

@@yiplatino that's totally fine. If it bothers you because you are paranoid, go ahead and don't play. And even if it is listening (which it isn't) if all you do on that computer is play League and listen to music, there is nothing for them to really gain on you. Vanguard is essential. If you play at high ranks it's extremely valuable for game integrity. If high ranks don't have integrity, that affects everyone else because it kills the point. Imagine if sports were constantly rigged. Would anyone still watch? If you are paranoid then don't play. I personally trust it. Just a reminder that Riot could listen to your music without Vanguard if they wanted to. I understand the security concerns but in terms of privacy there's almost no difference. It's an .exe running on your computer. It can access almost anything if they want to. Last I checked, that's how ransomware works. It's just some .exe. The big worry with Vanguard is it being breached and someone using it maliciously as a third party. And if that is your reason, then I would definitely understand. But most people think it's spyware which is stupid because Riot doesn't need it to do that nor does it legally make sense. tl;dr You can play League and music - with or without Vanguard it's the same. If it's on a separate machine then there is absolutely zero reason for concern. Vanguard is too important for the game. If you have genuine concerns of trust with Riot to make it breach proof then I understand and even agree not installing it. I personally trust Riot. Highly recommend watching an interview with an ex-Vanguard developer on the channel Veritas. It's very interesting.

[@sluggywug]

Developing a kernel runtime that requires a very specific TPM/BIOS config combo is just negligent at best. People barely know how to turn on their computers, don't expect the end user to be able to do anything beyond that.

[@Bringolf]

Riot's Vanguard system will be used to hack people in the future, that level of access just needs one mistake in their code to allow someone full access to the PC and no IT company in the world has not had someone break their program at some point. The easiest example Genshin impact's anticheat has been used for ransomware and has had multiple exploits (latest CVE 2024 22830). I just hope that when Vanguard gets hacked that it's actually reported by gaming news, but Riot is just as likely to do a quiet patch and sweep it under the rug.

[@wwjccsd]

Yeah they’ll send out a one paragraph email like every other data leak ie those credit companies that got millions of peoples data stolen (which is granted to them without your approval or consent)

[@djbcubed]

Thanks for referencing the Genshin CVE, definitely a big concern in this situation.

[@neonshadow5005]

RIOT has tried to defend Vanguard by claiming "well, it's been in Valorant since launch and nothing's happened! See, it's all good guys!" .. except that no one plays Valorant, it has like 1% of League of Legends' playerbase (RIOT even admitted this). Of course Valorant wasn't target'd. But Leagues? That's the mother of all whales.

[@kenneth_romero]

52:00 my personal experience with having the wrong settings (at least in valo) is it'll just kick you off the game and tell you to check your bios settings. I feel like there's probably something more fishy underneath the hood of why it's bricking PCs.

[@wwjccsd]

Yeah it’s called spaghetti code

[@shatterfall_hunted8236]

Well there are some important things to note 1 - Former WoW dev and offensive cybersecurity specialist for 20+ years (Thor aka PirateSoftware) debunked the whole "Kernel Level Anti-cheat" situation which for a lack of a better word is stil useles. Main point is that in videogames it is far far more efficient to make detection methods based on in game actions rather than having a glorified "file detect bot" running on your PC. For the same reason as to why Riot is bad at detecting greefers/trolls etc its the same with the Anti-cheat situation now aka Riot devs arent compitent enough to make such a simple tool that people 15+ years ago made every 3 months 2 - Just like regular anti-cheats once there is a way to bypass something there is no turning back , just because they theoreticly made it "harder" doesnt mean shit cause just like before the same cycle repeats itself , cheaters find ways to cheat > Riots patches anticheat > cheaters find new ways > repeat . The fact that cheating will initially drop to near 0 also doesnt mean anything cause cheaters are always on the market so as i said its a matter of time until cheats come out and those who cheat will get the new ones. IP and Hardware bans were possible before Vanguard so again its not like they need it to be Kernel Level to get that info and even before for some ungodly stupid reason they almost never did Hardware bans aside from botting situations in South East Asia. Also because Riot is incompitent as fuck when they released their article on cheating on their website they showed graphs that perfectly show the time of Banwaves throughout the years which gives the cheaters a massive advantage cause 1 they can plan accordingly and 2 due to the time intervals between banwaves its very predictable when they would happen if they were to be changed since there isnt really room for much diffrence in intervals so even if they changed when they do banwaves cheaters would very easily find out when. 3 - Although there hasnt been any information on this i personally believe Vanguard was created initially and was purposed for League of Legends since its the biggest market there is , assuming Valorant was in development for 2-3 years its very possible they used Vanguard as a marketing strategy for Valorant initially (Even in Valorant they have a cheating problem) but the main purpose was to use Valorant as a "beta test" to test the waters for Vanguard and how players would react and also to see its effect on a game that unlike league is way harder to detect cheaters by in-game methods , my assumption is that since they saw little to no pushback to Vanguard in Valorant they went forward with adding it into League that has a larger players base (or subject base on this matter) although again this is only my speculation am just giving out the info that this gels together too well with how they did things. (Also it is known that they didnt go all out on Valorant so its not hard to believe that they used it as a Gunea pig for the bigger project of Vanguard because at the end of the day Vanguard isnt a big deal to Riot but it is for Tencent)

[@makaidiy5716]

I am having a horrible experience with Vanguard. Over this weekend i kept getting an error message saying "that vanguard has stopped working" and as a result i get booted from ranked games. This resulted in me being penalised for "bad behaivour" ie "quitting" matches. Right now i am in potential of having my account frozen. I have sent bug reports and nothing is being done. What do I do!!!!!!!

[@treynguyen1236]

Get a shitty laptop to play league exclusively on there. Or quit.

[@homiga1]

Just stop playing. Vanguard has been an unreliable mess since the beginning and Valorant has the same issues you're experiencing. It's not going away.

[@m4ng4n]

uninstall, which is what you should have done before this shit dropped

[@potowogreedo]

Play Dota or CS doofus

[@jjqq4116]

@@potowogreedo They probably also have the same type of anti cheats.

[@georgeide2337]

Thorin was pretty chill today, he is such a good podcast host when he controlls his energy and doesn't channel it into talking all the time.

[@Mornin.Coffee]

I quit league almost three years ago , along with booze as two most addicting and life wrecking substances for me. It still sits on my drive tho, biding its time, waiting for a slip up. Thanks for the last push to finally get rid of it fully, and thanks for the code for raycons a while back, they are nice 😊

[@Ffoo_ffighter]

Make sure to reformat drive or use revo uninstaller. Riot client does not get deleted when you uninstall league

[@bezceljudzelzceljsh5799]

I remember when old riot client, the one on adobe air, would have a feature that let you spectate high ranked games of random people LIVE.

[@aprilmeowmeow]

I don't use reddit (nor do I play League of Legends anymore), but I really enjoyed this video. It's a relief to see people say things that I've been realizing/mentioning to friends for years now. I felt crazy for a while (the bot astroturfing downplaying every single suspicion I had was effective for a few months). Eventually I realized that the comment section is full of bots arguing with bots across the board on that website, so I left. I visit other forums occasionally. They have their own issues, but it's refreshing seeing actual people with their own (non bot influenced) opinions express them without tiptoeing around everything to avoid the wrath of the "um actually" brigade. I swear, sometimes they just comment paragraph after paragraph of meaningless salad in order to confuse people, lol.

[@karlloovali4531]

Didn't think I would uninstall league of legends since its kind of the only game I enjoy with my friends. What Richard said starting from 30:00 changed that.

[@bransonS]

Rocket League has competitive ready accounts available for free from Epic Games directly (if you play in a party). I wish so badly they would make it harder to play comp on a new account, but Epic Games just wants to show their metrics of unique accounts. It's crazy, every high-ranked player I've met has 5+ "alt" accounts, and most players in general over like bottom 25% I've met have 2-3. And now finally, hacks are becoming common in the game on top of the smurfs for the same reason. Bans mean absolutely nothing when accounts are free in terms of money and effort.

[@CxerRy96]

wasn't there official riot stats that the vast majority of cheaters were hardstuck gold to plat? turns out that micro-managing a champion is literally only 1/10th of what makes you good at the game, it's like Yasukeh said you can have the perfect kogmaw kiting you want if I'm like master yi or zed I'm running you down anyway

[@wwjccsd]

Yeah or for the Korean challenger karthus one, I’m sure an actual Korean challenger can just pick fizz and qwe ignite one shot. Stack mejais free win

[@streptococo4735]

Absolutely. Even worse there are "Anti-Cheat" champions, Maokai, Malphite, Nasus Zilean etc Micro spacing means squat when you are slowed by 90% or point click stunned.

[@SinfulPanda9028]

to monte's point around 53 min i had no idea about this vanguard kernal level stuff

[@thesolostoner7468]

I don’t think I did anything extra to download vanguard. I didn’t except anything or even press a download for the patch I believe the client did it on its own. 53:02

[@ahiwalter9153]

Dang, after 10 plus years of playing DoTA 2 I was considering playing Valorant & LoL but when the installer wanted to install this anti cheat, I started doing research & found this podcast. Thanks for the info yall, don’t think I’ll be installing this.

[@Kayoh1122]

At 14:18 Yasukeh talks about "Problem reaction Solution", Riot is notorious for doing this. They did it with Eve when they gutted her kit because the way stealth working in early league. They were even banning people for playing her rather than just removing the character. They did it with Old Aatrox (even though at the end of his lifespan he was an incredibly healthy character). Riot has had tons of practice doing this and they need to be called out on their bullshit.

[@kaliver517]

It goes without saying, but this isn't some phobia about China or the Chinese. If Riot were in bed with the US government I'd be just as fucking repelled by their anticheat. There is no government who I want to have kernel level access to my PC, nor Riot themselves. And that's just a surface level take. This is a company that has been breached on more than one occasion and we're to trust them to keep their kernel level access to themselves? A company that historically treats and pays its employees poorly? The vectors available to compromise this system boggle the mind.

[@DsGoldeen]

"Scientists have calculated that the chances of something so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten"- this quote, summs up perfectly, whole riot vanguard situation.

[@alsovan6791]

OMG didn't see you guys, since time immemorial, when Lewis was TheOneWhomShantbeNamed

[@MestoLV]

Just had my BIO's restarting yesterday... I didn't know why, now I do x)

[@park3275]

Dropping this video on the day of the midseason patch...

[@Chrispchiken]

Thanks for the reporting. This shit looked weird but I use it for the homies a few times a month. Not worth the risk. We’ll find something else

[@CxerRy96]

Would it make sense to just uninstall after every session

[@jtcye1162]

the problem I have is that it wont work with Kernel-mode Hardware-enforced Stack Protection and it didn't happen until recently, I guess it has something to do with how windows update work by rolling out updates to different people at different rates. After some research I found out all riot do is to tell people to turn the protection off, ye nope, not playing league then.

[@morfea123]

Fok Vanguard! Fok Rito! Can't play TFT anymore because of some wanking bloat/spyware. Do I want to give access to my computer to company who cant properly manage their own game or esports? No! Futhermore, If i play their game, I have consent to terms of service. But when they're bloatware get's access to my computer, there is no terms of service for them? So if they fok up and I suffer damages, it will be my fault not theirs. I say it again, fok RIOT!

[@m4ng4n]

Remember they justified Vanguard on the Masters+ Ranked queue (about 5% of the players?) having "too many cheaters". Yes you, TFT player, you have to give us kernel privilege because a minority of those who play a different mode, have a cheater problem.

[@morfea123]

@@m4ng4n Yes, I cannot stop cheating in TFT - with 1 hand clicking cartoon champs and 2nd one having a wank!

[@victorvondoom4869]

idk why they don't seperate TFT, like I only want to enjoy TFT not LoL

[@calarakien]

play it on your phone or get an android emulator. TFT does exist there and can be used with your existing stuff.

[@ADarkRaccoon]

Now getting out of League is a thing I can do after playing it since Season 1

[@zebnemma]

What Richard talked about in the beginning how his email got hacked after sending a report ticket to riot... Something similar happened to me some years ago too. You know how it has the "login and watch a LCS match on our website and get a free chest/loot/whatever)" So one time I did. You have to login to Leagues official website to get that reward. And after that I got a suspicious notification that someone had logged in to my email acc. And it also used to be that you only could send report tickets on their official website instead of directly in the client(many years ago). But anyway don't ever log into their website, it's not secure for shit! But also it just shows that you can't trust Riot with any sensitive information.

[@Edwoonie]

Did Richard release that riot lyte article?

[@yiplatino]

The moment Riot Games or Tencent prioritized eliminating cheaters over user's privacy concerns or ease to play without technical issues is the moment they've lost their reputation as a company who prioritizes the quality of their products over the benefits they might take from them. Or, to put in other words: Do players really care more about cheaters than about their personal privacy or ease to play? I really doubt it, since I am one who doesn't. Heck, the only type of people who might actually care a considerable amount of deal about this are high elo players, and I don't know the exact numbers, but how much are them, like Yassuke, 1% of the playerbase???

[@GreatYamatanoOrochi]

The TPM 2.0 thing is only related to Windows 11 because it's required to run the OS. It's completely redundant and useless info that Riot has given us and it has only partially been addresed here.

[@coryjohnson9728]

I recently had a bricked PC, how could I possibly know that Vanguard caused it? Why would I think to report it to RIOT GAMES, IF MY PC WAS WRECKED!

[@adriancandelario2902]

I mean I think the simple truth is most people probably won’t care. Tons of people’s favorite games unfortunately have kernel level anti cheat.

[@wwjccsd]

That aren’t always on. That aren’t bricking peoples pcs. That don’t have almost direct ccp control

[@tlanimass952]

@@wwjccsd You can just turn off Vanguard in tray, its really not a big deal w/e "always on". They make it easy to turn off if you're concerned.

[@calarakien]

@@tlanimass952 vanguard boots the same time your BIOS does. It turns drivers off that it doesnt like.

[@tlanimass952]

@@calarakien He was talking about "always on". Vanguard is very easy to turn off.

[@nicodemous52]

It's about control. You will own nothing and you will be happy. And yeah, I used to play LoL non stop from like 2012 to 2020. Since then, I've gotten on a hand full of times to play a few games. I will not be getting on anymore period.

[@Lucifer-fj7mg]

2:14 Riot vanguard anti-cheat 2:28

[@tnightwolf]

Thank fkn God for Yasukeh! Finally i know what a brick is!

[@wcure7254]

Monte at 1:31:55 says Riot brought up screenshots when no one asked. Except people did ask. That post went out the day after that Tweet was going around claiming they looked at the code and that it took screenshots of your pc and things like Discord etc. So yes. people did in fact ask. So I ask you, why didn't you do any research?

[@szabel.]

44:00 i'm one of those people who stopped playing/ uninstalled LoL earlier this year ahead of Vanguard, even after playing for 10+ years, and enjoying the game with my friends. I refuse to grant a video game company like Riot that level of access to my life though. I'm currently on the DoTA grind and i am sad there is no jungle😭

[@a_lost_one]

Calling it now: Riot is using Vanguard to pivot into the data industry, like Google.

[@vghsfan]

Why don’t they just get someone who actually specializes in it to talk about this stuff

[@Azrael_Xx_]

I quit playing league when Vanguard dropped. I wasn't enjoying it already, even winning in that game is not fun. And Vanguard was just another reason for me to quit. I will still follow esport of it, i really enjoy that, but playing that game? No more. I will much rather do something that is actually fun and does not make me want to scream and punch my monitor even after winning.

[@TheSayk]

I have been playing league for 8 years and Vanguard made me quit. Impressive.

[@brammutje15]

55:15 they did roll it out in the Philippines server first though

[@Yasukeh]

I brought that point up a minute after that was brought up.

[@brammutje15]

@@Yasukeh but im impatient and have to correct on the second i hear misinformation like a true gremlin

[@yasuchika]

Unfortunately now that Vanguard has been implemented, it will never be removed. If only because Riot doesn't want to lose face.

[@dennis7494]

IDC about the privacy concerns, all companies are selling my data anyways, but I for sure do not trust a company that after 15 years of trying cannot get a decent game client to not F something up on my pc with software like this. Uninstalled.

[@Mathieu_soDjo]

ESL Wire was a kernel anti cheat and everybody knows that nobody ever cheated in ESL random leagues... ;P

[@Kayoh1122]

I was a long time player of League. Played since beta. I uninstalled Riot stuff on ALL my devices because of Vanguard.

[@litensnubbe9516]

Interesting topic. But i dunno if i care so much about the drama around it. I would much rather have someone on who worked on anti-cheat software talk about why or why not this level of anti-cheat is needed. I have once in my whole life experienced cheating as a diamond player, so for me it just seemed like overkill to make it so intrusive. To be fair, i never want to experience the amount of cheaters CS2 have had recently.

[@EpicVideoMaster11]

I don't think most people who play league are excited for kernel level anti cheat. I'd say those people are the actual minority in this discourse. Definitely a lot of people who are okay with it but they are not the same.

[@SuperChalm]

Man i really liked LoL but they shot it in the head right in front of me like a rabbit they made me raise was a pretty rough psyop if u think about it.

[@mw2nubcake]

When I mentioned the points Richard made in his video and linked his video to my long time lol group chat, I was told by someone to take my tinfoil hat off as well when I uninstall the game.... which I found to be a little rude since I was being pretty genuine, but I also understand the joke side I. Anyway, this member of the chat also happens to work for Riot in the Valorant teaml, so there is a good chance he has undergone the de-nubification program and is well aware of RL. I also don't know how I feel about the "they have our data already, who cares" argument, because for me it has never been willfully given. But knowing what I know about this program based on Richard's video, and trusting his integrity, it feels willing to give it over. Anyway, i fucking have just done that and gotten the update. I am not giving up on this game just yet. Nope. KEEN FOR THIS DISCUSSION!!! I WILL EDIT THIS COMMENT WHEN I HAVE FINISHED THE EPISODE. I think more members of the LFN need to have a crack at entering the dialogue, these 4 horseman eps are a treasure trove of talking points

[@symmetryox7184]

Haven't played league in months. This made me remember to uninstall this game. Only worth following for competitive now.

[@VelcroEditing]

The cheating in games right now is so ridiculuous I don't mind bricking a few PC's & root kitting my PC to not have my time wasted. Yes thats how bad its gotten & thats why things are where they are

[@jebbyy32]

Except that these things do absolutely nothing against the cheats that truly affect the games. Soooo Yeahhh good one I guess

[@VelcroEditing]

Your delusional ofc they do something, that's why at the highest ranks cs is the most littered. You gotta be good at the game to be able to see the cheaters and that's the issue Richard and Thorin have. They are boomers, they are not good players, they are good at speaking about the game, not playing.

[@jeff230394]

Is monte confirming that the reason why le blanc was nerfed 6 months ago is because the chinese government is trying to prevent me from climbing once again ?

[@patrickdement1474]

All I wanted was to play a neat game with friends when I was a kid, not deal with such a ridiculous cult.

[@barnabonker]

My friend group had uninstalled League cuz of having BLUESCREENS AND FAILS

[@jobhunter-j7d]

just uninstalled vanguard and league. Got better things to do than be fed up with this BS. Bearly play 1 game a week, now im being asked to install a spyware for the saudi and or ccp to use. Good 1. Protect me from the cheater. I maybe have encountered 1 scripter in the last 5 years, so to say this is for cheaters is insane to me. If anything, griefers are the ones who ruin the game rather than the cheater. But then again, they don't really want to fix anything... Good bye league

[@justin9744]

They won’t care you are gone if you play that little. No one cares.

[@jobhunter-j7d]

@@justin9744 i agree. no one cares, as they should, but i do, thats all that matters at the end of the day, and could inspire others to follow.

[@finarfin5327]

agree with your points on the anticheat, but plz dont spread delulu that people will care about their pcs, data etc; more than 95% playerbase doesnt know or doesnt care or are addicted

[@Rayon811]

im getting daily blue screens after vanguard, prob fucked me nvidia settings

[@chombers]

Who is responsible for suppressing my critical comments of the collective worldview expressed by the "Last Free Nation" crew? KZbin or your channels?

[@adonnis1]

Realistically these companies are always gonna do whatever they want. I think it’s good to do a 2 fold approach: Those who don’t care should stop playing and uninstall, and those who like the game should try and get a cheap burner PC for like $200 and play on that. League can already play on a potato, so if data is what Riot is after then I say give them fake/No data from a burner PC. Lose lose situation for Riot

[@3dhotshot]

IM waiting for the lawsuit to roll out riot gets sued most probably

[@Edwoonie]

What the f I missed this

[@svsv1191]

There is no way the "down vote bots" guy is real

[@blumberg49]

Did you enjoy this week's episode of the Four Horseman where we broke down multiple reasons why Riot and their game League of Legends is awful and should be something you shouldn't engage with? Well that's great because we have *checks notes* 3 episodes a week about League of Legends where we encourage you to bet on the game, suggest the best matches you can watch so that Riot gets more views AND we'll have some of your favourite League personalities on to discuss various aspects of the game so that you're... less ?? Interested in Riot and their evil game League of Legends... which we hate so much that we will keep giving you an incentive to watch their advertisements of it...

[@indethbed2546]

hey guys. just dedicate a different computer to the game

[@Arkaine197]

Never thought i'd sit down and listen to Dylan Mulvaney for two hours, but the guy actually knows his stuff when it comes to video games, i'm impressed.

[@HeLLraiSa911]

👍

[@heavyflamerheresy2581]

My pc said brrrr, when I tried to stop vanguard runing.

[@Nin64-zw9kr]

Gaming is dead. They killed it. Learn an instrument and play it or something similar. When there is domething truly worth your time to play again then play it but dont guve anyone your time that doesnt deserve it

[@JustAnotherGuy1991]

So China and Saudi is a big no but Western governments is fine? yall are amazing with the double standards....

[@RLewisReports]

Where was that said in the show?

[@JustAnotherGuy1991]

@@RLewisReports thats the whole point why didn't you mention the other games that use it, that have former US officials on their boards? I respect you guys but why are you skipping the part where even the US has stuff like this? I realize that a western audience and especially a US audience would eat up Chinese and Saudi "big bad" stories but you aren't the typical media.

[@chombers]

It's the same exhausted Western liberal rhetoric where they conveniently forget that the vast majority of the policies and abuses that they crucify authoritarian regimes abroad for are just as prevalent in the US/UK if not even worse. Don't hold your breath for them to give context such as that former/current CIA members are operating at the highest levels of the largest media companies including game studios such as Blizzard and I'm sure many more. They're limited to the painfully oblivious Us vs Them mentality that leads to hypocritical moral crusading against the "CCP" and the like.

[@ioan9937]

"China bad" American psyop is too op.

[@davo4074]

"baba's first moba"?, ahaha easy knowing you fed every one of your games boomer. "bad dota" ahaha sorry but being cc'd for 20 seconds straight until dead unless you buy BKB every game first item is not good game design mate.

[@RLewisReports]

Skill issue.

[@davo4074]

@@RLewisReports damn baldy-locks you come up with that response all by yourself?

[@davo4074]

@@RLewisReports have me on the back foot here 😅😅😅

[@LolLol-ui3jh]

oh no china also want our data ? not jsut our gov? dam now need protect from both 😲 love west doppelmoral 🤑

[@jamzy9]

Yasukeh is just making shit up, Riot is fully beholden to American law since they operate in the US, even if they are owned by tencent chinese laws do not apply to them.

[@wwjccsd]

Yup just like riot totally followed all us laws and there weren’t some of the largest lawsuits filed against them.

[@jamzy9]

@@wwjccsd proved my point, they weren’t following US laws so they got sued. Now in what fantasy world would riot be following Chinese laws to a T but not US laws which could get them sued in the US where they operate and live.

[@Yasukeh]

If you read the relevant law I cited and the legal arguments surrounding it, you'd know that Tencent and it's subsidiaries(Riot) are forced to comply with intelligence efforts abroad irrespective of any local laws it may conflict with.

[@jamzy9]

@@Yasukeh How can Riot be forced act in anyway if their employees reside in the US, what enforcement mechanism does China have outside their border?

[@Yasukeh]

@@jamzy9 Read the law and the arguments. It directly addresses this point.

[@Durnrhaegar]

That was painful. Listening to RL, Monte and Thorin taking about vanguard is like listening to boomers talking about vaccines. This is not their forte, they sound idiotic tbh.

[@timoti335]

I wish Thorin would stop getting these bums from his discord on the shows, this guy Yasukeh and Keire.. Monte should have introduced him as a bad take giver from Thorins discord, also shocked by this dudes voice given how much shit he talks online, hard to listen to

[@elephantisland695]

Was not expecting that voice lmaooo

[@marcrush55]

Why is he a bum?

[@albiewitz2686]

This is the worst possible topic for this crew. Nothing but mindless regurgitation of pro-imperialist propaganda against China and endless Sinophobic fearmongering nonsense. Stick to topics they know even a tiny bit about

[@nothxgg8324]

"pro-imperialist propaganda" "Sinophobic fearmongering" pls remember take your schizo meds before posting to the internet....

[@nathaniel_pardue]

Ask me how I know you didn't listen to a word they said.

[@albiewitz2686]

@@nathaniel_pardue except I did and I have listened to every episode of 4 horsemen and every summoning insight, most of their side shows and many of Thorin's solo vids. They're good dudes, but they have this weird lib-brain hyper fixation on China and Saudi Arabia while the US/UK are quite literally the two most destructive and globally oppressive nations in history

[@RLewisReports]

@@albiewitz2686 You're right. I've never criticised the US or their foreign policy. You are very well informed.

[@albiewitz2686]

@@RLewisReports oh I know you have more so than your other hosts. Your union work and investigative work is still what made me a fan a long time ago. My comment was inflammatory on purpose but I really do think an honest evaluation yields all governments as "evil" but I really genuinely don't see how we can discuss Saudi without the context of their monarchy standing solely on the protection and partnerships with the US/UK I only feel stung by the ways this topic gets discussed on these shows BECAUSE I can tell you guys are intelligent well-intentioned men who have repeatedly inspired me to stand my ground on my ethical guidelines in my workplaces and personal life.

[@beatsbydr.draven1932]

I have played League of Legends since I was a kid in middle school, around the beginning of season 2. I am now married with 3 children. I've played this game a ton over the last 13 years and spent some money on skins etc, but I will now be uninstalling LOL forever. Congratulations Riot, you have managed to make even your most committed players walk away. I've known for years the company was trash but still enjoyed the game in spite of it, but this is the end of the line. I'll just enjoy the eSports side through LFN content and call it good

[@zebnemma]

Yes I played since 2013 to 2024, so 11 years. Also uninstalled when the Vanguard patch came. I played up until the very end. Just a day or two before that I played a few games. There will never be a reason to return to League now. Because I know that when the majority of veterans quit the game is gonna be even more fucking toxic brain rot then it has ever been. Have fun keeping the Yasuo, Yone and Samira mains Riot. The rest of us are leaving!!! Me and my other veteran friend quit on the spot. And I know there are many more. Probably tens of thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of players I can foresee quitting over this, ESPECIALLY the veterans! On every single KZbin video about this topic there are many comments saying "I quit League". Even if Riot is censoring people on Reddit the proof that people are leaving is on KZbin.

[@beatsbydr.draven1932]

@@zebnemma 100%, my dad always said, "Vote with your wallet." Guess what? If tens to hundreds of thousands of people refuse to play while vanguard exists, that's a lot of zeros riot will lose. Maybe they'll eventually reconsider their decision but I certainly won't hold my breath

[@zebnemma]

@@beatsbydr.draven1932 I think Riots reputation is tarnished in general after this, even for people who decided to keep playing with Vanguard installed. I can foresee even a good chunk of those players leaving too eventually. Especially since it's talking about how Vanguard gives people PC crashes or lags... I feel like even the biggest League addicts are gonna say fuck it if they have lag every single match they play LMAO.

[@BearusAurelius]

The issue a lot of people, myself included, were having is that many newer desktops and laptops sold with Win11 pre-installed did not have TPM 2.0 enabled. This isn't actually supposed to be possible as Win 11 requires TPM to be installed, as those upgrading from Win10 will tell you. So you could easily install Vangaurd, as you already have Windows 11, and then have your entire computer labeled as a cheater for not having TPM 2.0 installed. Truly incredible that Riot missed this.

[@Kirbie44]

Bricked my PC completely. Had to CMOS reset etc etc

[@kiwi5265]

53:00 THATs why unistall this game right now. How the fuck are they alowd to without any warning install this shit on my PC ???

[@Protomango]

Thank you guys, I think this is a losing battle but I admire the transparency as always.

[@Creamouz]

I quit league when they first announced they were going to implement Vanguard back in January, I've been meaning to try out Dota but still haven't x)

[@mongolidp]

I began playing cs 2, it's quite fun even though very difficult to learn.

[@treynguyen1236]

Try hots

[@Creamouz]

@@treynguyen1236 id actually rather drink a glass of piss than play a blizzard game

[@atahannd.9937]

gl with dota its real tough in the begining but worth it.

[@uhis1686]

same haha, dota has been tough to learn but i find it pretty fun

[@joeydennis7834]

Flusha cheated in 2014

[@2failepic]

There is a popular streamer called BatemanL9 he is the Joker of League Streamers (guy who runs it down 24/7). He just switched to MacOS for his setup, because there is no Vanguard for Mac.

[@ardentdino7299]

@1:35:20 yes you can close vanguard as Monte mentions, but there is a very high chance at least for me on Windows 10 that Windows will update itself every single time you close Vanguard

[@nc_aravindan]

Its not necessary for LoL. But Valorant uses it. If they want to "steal" data, they could already be doing it from Valorant players.

[@freshprince3]

I understand people's concerns. I have 2 pc's and had no problem with vanguard yet and one of them is an old laptop bought in 2016 where is running windows 10. I saw a tweet from a known cheater saing that he is using a macbook now because there are no plans that riot will make mac users install vanguard and i find that absurd.

[@ssccvvsscc]

vanguard reduces the performance of my 2022 gaming laptop to the state of my 2010 budget gaming pc thanks riot.

[@Nev7rmind]

Personally I don't really care about privacy/CCP argument, however having permanently-running app that just slows down your computer just to play TFT or few ARAM games a month makes very little sense to me, and Riot isn't known for their technical excellency either, their client has been a memory-leaking mess since its inception so I'm not at all surprised about blue screens and driver issues that the Vanguard has been causing. Also, logically, if every online game made such anticheat, would that mean you need to run like 10 of them at the same time, with them clashing with each other, this is subscription service dilemma all over again, there's no way that's good for anyone moving forward.

[@παντοδ]

why would you not care about the privacy... lmao

[@awsomeben4kills]

​@@παντοδcause most people don't.....

[@Nev7rmind]

@@παντοδ too late for that. If someone really wanted your data, they'd get it even without vanguard.

[@Nev7rmind]

@@παντοδ not privacy as a whole but argument that it's vanguard that makes my otherwise secure data insecure. It's too far gone already and anyone important really wanting your data would already be able to get it, you'd need to go to extreme lengths to avoid it, and I'm not sure that CCP is worst offender on that front either.

[@rivehnchan4169]

​@@παντοδthere are three definitions of private data in Cyber security that have changed over the years. Nowadays most people leak so much personal information online and through social media that the general definition is data that you consented to share rather than all sensitive data, therefore it just isn't a worry to people now. If you have no skeletons in the closet, you wouldn't have to worry about what data you give. The Vanguard problem with me was about Riot's lack of transparency around the issues involving users. But this isn't to say that the data you leak wouldn't be used maliciously, who knows what these governments would do with this data in the future.