The Ethical Case For and Against Box Controllers, or GLYPH REVIEW

[@arJunebugSmash]

instructions unclear, i am now evil junebug

[@vigilantique]

the ganon main

[@jovanmallare]

ok arjun

[@NarwhalPM]

goonbug,

[@theespicypotato]

​@@NarwhalPM Goonbug

[@irongiant5951]

Goonbug

[@ShadeAnris]

I think something that gets missed a lot too is that it’s really annoying or expensive to get a proper GameCube controller. One that’s fully fit for the game (notches, no snap back etc,) is often much harder to get for many people than a box style controller. It’s only going to get harder to get decent GameCube controller’s over time so I think it’s at the very least short sighted to ban boxes. Getting a controller that’s actually good enough to be used for some characters is already a huge barrier to entry regardless of if it’s a box style or GCC so it would really suck to make the problem even worse

[@cadetsparklez3300]

my sister has developed a condition similar to haxs and cannot play with me anymore. the moral argument is huge. best not ruin people lives for no reason

[@AwkwardTurtle311]

I don’t think we should make exceptions in tournament play for injuries. Unfortunate stuff happens to athletes all the time and they have to quit, not bend the rules (the real solution to this is modded controller tournaments and standard gcc tournaments)

[@moobs]

play puff and Samus

[@ellachino4799]

@@AwkwardTurtle311 problem is, we can't even get doubles to have a thriving tournament scene these days, let alone an entirely new ruleset

[@jiaan100]

@@AwkwardTurtle311 in 10 years the majority of players will be on keyboard and box. Almost every new player is learning on keyboard because we all have a keyboard already. Most competitive players are still gcc players, but even now it would be hard getting just about anyone in your no notches no z jump no springless L/R no etc tournament.

[@AwkwardTurtle311]

@@jiaan100 that’s been the case since 2016 with people starting on keyboards on online. Some people think their will be too few modded players, either way their should be tourneys for both at every major

[@awogbob]

Just up to 3 mins in now and I have to say you're framing around valued skills is the most reasonable take I've seen around designing rulesets to begin the discussion. I've been trying to articulate a similar thing in my own thinking. Thank you

[@drewbabe]

It's a better framing than the nonsense of "is it comparable to an ideal OEM GCC with mods but not a custom board" that's been going around, but it's important to remember that you can quickly fall into mental traps of putting the cart before the horse if you talk about valued skills. A simple example would be someone's ability to input a legedash versus their ability to utilize the technique effectively in-game. If you value the ability to merely perform the inputs too much, you'll start thinking like a 2-2er who grinds training mode combos but chokes under pressure against any opponent capable of putting up a fight, and you'll start crying about how all the decades you spent labbing out combos you almost never get to use at events (because your mentality sucks and you lose to anyone who can get in your head) are going to waste because of the rectangle users. Conversely-and this is more difficult to actually do but it is does happen to lesser degrees-if you overvalue utilizing the technique effectively in-game and you don't value input execution at all, you might think like the 0-2er who almost never practices tech and sees the rectangles as an easy way to start beating people, only to find out switching takes months of practice that you won't put in anyway. A better framing is maximizing the fun for the community overall. This has actual utility; after all, if you're not having fun overall, then why are you even in this hobby to begin with? This is more difficult to measure, and when you do try, you get really affected by biases in who you survey and who's been stirring shit on social media recently, but it is a better framing than "valued skills." Seeing someone do something ridiculously impressive that you know was both not easy to execute and was also an ingenious call in the heat of the moment is fun. Being the person responsible for that is also really fun. And even being on the receiving end of that can be fun. Meanwhile, people trivially taking gameplay actions that decrease the interactivity of the game or stall it, since doing so would be optimal (see the video about the end game of 20XX: two foxes on FD staring at each other and doing nothing, forever,) would suck the fun out. Rulesets should be designed around making the former stuff more common and the latter stuff more rare. Until now, we've mostly relied on the rules to only address the latter, relying on players to provide the former, rather than giving them incentives besides clinching the game or maybe getting on a clip. It's the hardware that's recently begun to give external boosts to the positive end of the equation. As long as the execution barrier isn't so low that almost anyone can do anything that looks nutty and it loses all impact and impressiveness-and there's never gonna be a controller without macros that lets you do that-then all we have to worry about is whether the controllers also make the negative side of the equation get a boost. So, mostly just anything that trivializes SDI or makes the ledge even more OP than it already is.

[@croatchie6914]

When the world needed him the most. he came back.

[@burntsiennaleigh]

This video hasn't even been up long enough for me to have finished it but my bet right now is that he's reviewing the DK Bongos and if I'm wrong I'm wrong

[@esemd]

i love box controllers

[@jiaan100]

Same (keyboard is a type of box)

[@serialartistry]

i really appreciated your insight into rulesets as a whole and how they relate to this discussion, and your interpretation of ethics fits well in this context. though to hear you say "what even is ergonomics?" when repetitive strain injury is so rampant in the gaming community was a bit of a surprise. trying to do more than one waveshine in a row on GCC makes me feel like im holding a 20,000 volt joy buzzer. no such problem on LBX

[@serialartistry]

this game represents an application of technical skill and strategic knowledge that few other games can match. keeping it limited to the 20+ year technology and hardware will only inhibit the growth of the community. if you want to be so exclusionist about it, then sure, you can watch tournament entrant numbers drop like a stone

[@TheTechnopider]

Im gonna be a stickler for a second here... IDK if im getting april fooled, but the explanation of SOCD included a pretty frequent misunderstanding of what the word SOCD actually refers to. You said correctly that socd is what happens when you press 2 opposite directions. BUT, you then gave demonstrations of what the inputs would look like SOCD, vs without SOCD. This isn't what the word means. A box cantroller can not have NO SOCD. All boxes have different SOCD "resolutions", that dictate what the conteoller does when 2 opposites are pressed. What you described as "With SOCD" is what is called "Second input priority" SOCD. or 2ip for short. What you described as "No SOCD" is what is called "Neutral" SOCD, or NSOCD. 2ip is what is most common with purchased boxes in melee. NSOCD is the most popular choice for SOCD going further as part of a ruleset in melee. However, it IS possible to have a controller with no SOCD resolution. This is when the controller sends both left AND right to the game. This was possible in some oldschool fgc's, and caused new mechanics otherwise unavilable. HOWEVER. This isnt relevant to melee because the gamecube controller cable is literally incapable of transmitting a simultaneous left and right input. Sorry for the long writeup, I just think there is a lot of misunderstanding around what SOCD is, and what people mean when they talk about it

[@rishi360]

You are correct, I noticed this late in the editing process and decided to leave it as is as the visual still mostly conveyed my point

[@bot_matt]

Also, most traditional melee boxes don’t even use 2ip, they use 2ip No Reactivation. You can hit left, then right while holding left, but if you let go of right then it will go to neutral

[@TheTechnopider]

@@bot_matt true, I shoulda included that in my explanation

[@eftorq]

As a hand problem having Melee player, I'm just happy it's possible to enjoy the game without reaching my pain limit after 30 minutes

[@ArmandoDoval]

"by the way -- what does ergonomic even mean?" It means you won't get a repetitive strain injury from using it for hours each day

[@serval_ssbm]

the one single miss of this vid; i don't think that's a difficult word to understand the concept of, so it came across as kinda disingenuous...

[@drewbabe]

@@serval_ssbm it's like rishi wanted to make an april fools' vid, a serious ruleset discussion vid, and also fulfill his contractual obligation to review the controller he got sent all in one go. so yeah it's just in this weird state of seeming ironically sincere at times and actually sincere at others, all while sounding extremely under-researched either way

[@leaffinite2001]

​@@serval_ssbm wishy washy and vague, like much of the video. Feels a bit aimless and meandering imo

[@Goreblender]

but you will get repetitive strain injuries on box controllers. possibly more than you would with a regular handheld controller

[@leaffinite2001]

@Goreblender well sure possibly. Its also possibly the case that i drive better while my eyes are closed but i havent tried it

[@deanerdaweiner3829]

What a good video! I have a masters degree in philosophy and i must say this video is very well formulated! Thanks for your contribution to the community :) i personally think that these types of controllers ought to be legal because of the various reasons you touched on in this video. I think to disallow them on the grounds of gamecube controllers being the “intended way to play the game” is some form of a naturalistic fallacy.

[@Eval999]

ergonomic means my thumbs dont scream after shffling for 10 mins

[@CommandoBlack123]

Broooo. The sound voltex controller lol

[@fraggnum__9660]

Imo, fuck leffen. I care more about the long term sustainability and health benefits of box controllers if anything. Especially with other fg’s normalizing them it feels much more like something unremarkable being gatekept :/ (It also doesn’t help that the entire case against the boxx was started by, yk…)

[@Indigamesforlife]

2:22 the nerfs and ucf fix all of that

[@SadToffee]

Imagine how intimidating the glyph must look to new players... so many buttons...

[@ianm2757]

There's minor edges to the capabilities of box and minor edges to the capabilities of gcc. Thats all it is tho, minor. If you think you lost a game just cause your op was on box, i believe the phrase is, "get gud."

[@joshuaschwartz7840]

The king is back!

[@SilentMystification]

2:31 SDVX controller spotted 👀👀

[@sleepyzeph]

hot take, i think all competition is inherently unfair because humans and our environments are so complex. some humans are just gonna have an easier time fighting than others, so we make weight classes to try and balance things out. but weight isn't everything, and even if it was, setting arbitrary brackets for what "middleweight" is is still going to bias against people in the lower end of the bracket. it'll never be "fair". leverless controllers are better than traditional GC controllers for obvious reasons. we can try to regulate them in the interest of fairness, but i think we'd be chasing our own tails. i think it's better to try and shift our culture to value individual growth, individual values, rather than winning over others. the guy who shows up to fighting game tournaments with a guitar hero guitar, or the guy with the racing wheel, are still "playing to win". their definition of "win" is just one where it's not "triumph over others", it's "do well and put on a show with what you've got". the blind SFV ken player is the sickest dude in the world even if he didn't win a major. i think that'd be a much healthier way to view things in all competitions. also fuck leffen

[@jiaan100]

Yeah leffen is pretty cute I'd be down

[@kuhyugaa]

I’d use any controller I want and wouldn’t care what anyone thought

[@mystwerks]

The Frame 1 also has textured pbt on rev1/2 heavies and discontinued offering smooth abs midway through Rev2 of the lights? I know its a bit of an april fools video, but outside of the differences between melee/other fighters, I dont feel like anything of note was really expressed

[@deadmanwalking7953]

holy shit where do i get that Dark Magician skin tho??

[@deadmanwalking7953]

@@weilzudope who asked?

[@James-ek3mb]

Thanks as always Rishi :D

[@lamMeTV]

I prefer to call them abcs. All button controllers

[@PERSONALEEMG]

yay.. welcome back

[@themustardthe]

LETS GO RISHI UPLOADED!!!

[@lightbrand_]

What a pleasant surprise! Rishi’s back

[@O_RLY]

What skills do we value in competition? Surely, we would prefer players not having advantages and disadvantages over their opponent before they even sit down to play? If we're at the olympics and one guy gets steroids and the others don't. Do we still value the skills of the steroid user? If one guy is allowed shoes and the others can only afford sandals, is it a fair competition? You could argue that leverless controllers must be allowed for accessibility. However, we don't expect handicapped people to compete against abled people in the olympics. They get their own separate bracket. We could do that in smash as well. 1. Stock, vanilla, oem gcc-only events. 2. Any modified controller, notched, springless, z-jump, goom wave, leverless, rectangle, dk bongos, ddr pad, guitar hero, etc events. If you want to box with cement gloves, then it's only fair if your opponent does the same.

[@firstlast3313]

Thought you were actually gonna pick a side

[@FHGryphonIRL]

I cooked the shit out of my thumb getting top 50 on Brawlhalla (I know people don’t like Brawlhalla but I do okay leave me alone) and stopped using controller for every game (except rocket league because I am NOT learning keyboard for that). So anyways I get why people dislike it but it lets me keep playing and that’s all I care about.

[@wigglediggledoo]

no way is my man wavedashing on the sdvx controller

[@eX1st4132]

The goated melee youtuber

[@mkultravictim3917]

Good video 👍🏻 however I was expecting a conclusion of some kind, but it kind of non sequitur transitioned into a review of the controller.

[@powwu]

Rivals 2 mentioned

[@tree2992]

I thought this was an april fools' video at first

[@Maxx00]

Hot Take: If you're going 0-2 at your local, it ain't the controller's fault bub

[@awogbob]

You just framed the ethical discussion but you didn't reveal your take. In my opinion analog to digital inputs is not valued by the community en masse. I think the fact the game was designed only for the GameCube controller is a big part of that reason. And that the coordinate system for advanced skills is so esoteric that it requires huge amounts of precision's == skill

[@isaacwiseick]

I agree! But as a community melee should take interest in developing and legalizing alternative lever controllers. The ergonomics behind the gamecube controller are devastating and we need to make access to healthier alternatives. Digital inputs are too powerful when left untampered, but can be the only choice for players like Hax because of the spread load and favorable wrist position. IMHO we cannot ban these controllers until suitable lever alternatives exist, if that happens we're encouraging players who do have health concerns to choose between developing their illnesses or leaving the game. Digital inputs aren't busted enough to justify the exclusion of players willing to partake in the favored skill expression.

[@Bones0]

While he stopped short of giving an opinion on legality, he did say at 8:30 that he believes using the GCC is the most valued skill.

[@Bones0]

@@isaacwiseick 1. There is no evidence that box controllers are more ergonomic overall. 2. No one cares if people with hand issues play on box controllers. It only becomes controversial when these players want to use an alternate controller in competitions where everyone is supposed to be on a level playing field. You may think it's better to include these players and nerf box controllers, but most box players have only ever advocated against nerfing their controllers so clearly there is a desire to be competitive with their alternative controllers, not just "be included".

[@leaffinite2001]

​@Bones0 your comment doesnt even make sense. If you arent talking about competition, then you arent talking about anything. No ones talking about actual laws against playing melee on boxes at home. Saying "idc if you use box except in tournaments" is entirely redundant. Also while sure, there arent any studies on it or whatever, i must ask you to clarify; do you believe gcc to be ergonomically comparable to box controllers? Seriously?

[@MegaloMan-d6l]

For me all controllers make my hand pain 10x worse than using keyboard, and the GameCube controller is by far the worst one for this. I honestly think if people are ok using Goomwave ledge dashes and notches, the point about more precision etc is completely invalidated.

[@rumfordc]

melee is way too popular right now so its seems like a good time to raise the barrier to entry

[@jmlee337]

dark magician marth skin????

[@frido7939]

2:33 Is that Rhythm game controller?

[@beefour7480]

That is a sound voltex controller yes

[@sativa2swag]

why would u ban young link if you value combos? he combos forever!

[@YukonJon]

RISHI??? LIKE FISHI???

[@lamMeTV]

That's why I bought a frame1! Its far cheaper than glyph and also allows you to play 2D fighters and platform fighters but far more seemlessly.

[@rheawelsh4142]

The biggest issue with the frame1 is there's like a 50/50 chance your order will take two years to ship or just be refunded

[@KuhEssen]

Ethos

[@AwkwardTurtle311]

This could all be solved by running modded controllers tournaments and standard gcc controller tournaments. all of that creating new modded ethical controllers discourse would then be able to flourish in its own scene and standard gcc players would be able to flourish in their own scene. As it is rn, it’s like having heavyweight boxers go against welterweight. Or any numerous other similar examples you could draw from sports and esports

[@Aefax]

not that that's a bad idea but it does introduce a split into the already-small melee singles playerbase, which might be too big of a challenge to put into practice

[@AwkwardTurtle311]

@@Aefax i think we will continue to get smaller the way we’re going right now. We’re bleeding away tons players due to controller legality issues and the lack of a standard rule set. (For example i started in 2014 but once z jump became a thing and phobs i quit. No way I’m going to cheat to gain an advantage or much less have the money to do it. And it’s disheartening when everything that use to be consider skillful now can be done 10x easier with no skill.)

[@Aefax]

@AwkwardTurtle311 yeah its funny how easy it is to spot a spacie with no notches. but i think at this point so many players would quit because they've gotten so used to these gigamodded controllers being allowed in the ruleset that in their mind all it has to do with is comfort cause they've forgotten what a disadvantage it would be to play on a completely unmodded OEM these days

[@VHzt4r]

First viewer and comment, thats meee

[@FrostyFrostyFrostyFrosty]

It’s a GameCube game. It’s been played on GameCube controllers for 20 years. It should only ever be played on GameCube controllers. The end

[@leaffinite2001]

Lowest iq take

[@FrostyFrostyFrostyFrosty]

@@leaffinite2001 why? Melee is a game played on an analog controllers, that’s why it’s so much better than other fighting games. It’s not too much to ask to have players who have been playing on controller for 20 years continue to play on controller.

[@leaffinite2001]

@FrostyFrostyFrostyFrosty your argument is literally just "it has been so it should be" its so low iq your brains probably looking up at the devil. Also 1: is that really why? Idk man 2: i guess if youre willing to keep making controllers, and are ok with them being inherently advantaged or disadvantaged based on nearly random imperfections to the point that actually having a fair match require multiple software patches to try to make up for hardware inadequacy, then no, it isnt unreasonable.

[@Hack--rz1io]

​@@FrostyFrostyFrostyFrosty I have a couple issues with that take which make me at least say that it's not "The end" (maybe still the same conclusion but there is more discussion to be had) Appealing to the game's design doesn't make sense to me because I don't think that tradition is a value, we have evolved and the game has changed in many ways why can't controllers change too Secondly even if I accept that it is important that it was designed for a controller then I'd say it was only designed for stock controllers which are just impractical And thirdly I just want to play without necessarily endangering hands of players that's pretty cool (And less importantly but still something I care about is that I just think diversity is cool, choice is cool, and I just think that many players just find some things more comfortable to use)

[@jiaan100]

In 20 years melee will be played more on keyboard and box than gcc. It's already played much more on PC than it is on gamecube

[@empress_josie]

fuck box im ableist af when it comes to box

[@starfy1197]

They banned hax but wanna keep his technology

[@Sh1v3rIZAE]

bruh what the hell is the point of using that? I could deadass type full sentences with periods and numbers on that controller if I bound them all to keys. Just get a keyboard adapter deadass 💀

[@jiaan100]

If you're shitposting don't say deadass. Or do, since you almost got me

[@Sh1v3rIZAE]

No, I'm being deadass.@@jiaan100

[@Sh1v3rIZAE]

@@jiaan100 No seriously, WHAT the hell is the point of getting a box controller THAT big? 4D Tekken?

[@dataman6310]

I feel like the Melee scene takes a lot of time to decide to do anything. We've allowed Box and Phob controllers without really thinking about what impact they have. I'm a purist so i think they should be removed, but i don't speak for everyone.

[@Fedivdicher]

People that use boxes probably cheat on their girlfriends, hate the sound of children laughing and like tossing boxes of puppies in nearby rivers for fun.

[@Aio-Project]

if its really about ergonomics then just learn better technique in your tech skill execution. learning to not hurt your hands is totally possible. i don't understand why rectangle controllers didn't use an analogue stick. there is value in the angles man

[@jiaan100]

how does improved technique ever make dash dancing for hours a day less likely to cause thumb strain? Unless your technique is shaking/stretching/light weightlifting between games, which plenty of people do and still get pain.

[@ShadeAnris]

This is really kinda down to luck tbh. Yes you can learn slightly healthier ways to do certain tech but it’s still not a healthy motion for most the the faster stuff.

[@Aio-Project]

@@jiaan100 what im getting at is efficiency of motion and eliminating excess tension. right hand problems are being solved with stuff like z-jump but i hear you, dash dancing is a lot of motion. But still i feel like wiggling the analogue stick around has always been a visceral part of what makes melee cool. the times i practice are all about finding efficiency and ease in my hands and i perform better when i warm up with that in mind

[@Aio-Project]

@@ShadeAnris where is the luck? either you learn to eliminate unnecessary tension or you don't. i think thats also a valuable skill in the game. I have met players who kick my ass whose hands spazz the fuck out when they play and i just think thats part of getting better that doesn't directly equate to winning but is important for long term hand health