The Future of Fighting Games? One Button Special Moves and the Controller Arms Race

[@PERSONTHATISCLEVER]

The Granblue Rising part is actually a bit different now. There is only a damage buff for motion inputs when it is not canceled, ie in neutral. So if you do motion inputs in combos it makes no damage difference. As in, simple inputs are almost unambiguously better

[@Jrrj100]

This isn't entirely true because if your combo needs you to link special moves instead of cancelling into special moves then its better to do the motion input still because it doesn't count as a cancel so motion input is required for full damage. I know for a fact Lucilius has a combo like this and i'm sure other characters do as well. But yeah Granblue's system sucks.

[@thatguy8841]

Besides, it's a 10% difference. It wasn't that rewarding anyway

[@MatheusFreitasOrangeMaths]

​@@thatguy8841 That's so true, got to masters playing belial without using a single traditional input, only simple. Even when traditional is the only option some players will optmize more than others when it comes to combos and damage, and a lot of high skill players don't do hard combos, that's why the concept of tournament combos exist.

[@ADreamingTraveler]

The thing is though that many modern control players are moving onto classic controls now. So I don't think Modern is that bad of a thing in Street Fighter 6. People thought Modern would dominate but instead it's helping people intimidated by the game get into it and then graduate to Classic.

[@dataecto6135]

i echo this sentiment completely. I used to play Modern on Pad and Classic on Stick. But then as I kept switching between the two I realized Modern was more restricting, and it's because I have that experience from Classic showing me there's more I can do. Now I just play Classic on Pad and Stick. I think SF6 did the right thing with its Modern implementation, and a lot of complaints towards it come from more Casual yet still competitive players. Not that they arent entirely valid - It can be weird to have to adjust to a specific playstyle based on what control theyre using- but its a small thing in the grand scheme of things

[@eduardoserpa1682]

The idea of limiting special and normal options in Modern, but allowing motion inputs in Modern for damage and more options was pretty smart on their part for allowing players to chunk complexity towards playing Modern if they so choose.

[@nico-wj1mh]

found your channel an hour ago from "think, don't mash" and seeing that you uploaded a new one just today is like finding gold, then digging like half an inch and finding even more

[@mifaro2255]

8:05 That's why mapping tilts on the right stick is reccomended. For a smash attack, you do forward + A For a tilt, you use the right stick And for an instant dash attack, you do forward + side on the right stick You can do that at any point of the run animation, and you can stop mid run by letting go of the left stick and do a running tilt with the right stick.

[@lmoa3917]

This forces you to move your thumb off of the face buttons though. I’d much rather have smash attacks bound to a separate button like you can do in Rivals of Aether.

[@mifaro2255]

@@lmoa3917 This works too

[@pressbuttonwin2602]

Modern smash definitely feels a lot friendlier. I do think as they go further in this direction though, they're getting into 'needing a lot of buttons' territory, which feels kind of deceptive, in a way? Like if a new player looks at the controls, they're going to think there are five (non-movement) buttons: attack, special, jump, grab, and shield. But to play 'correctly', they need a second jump button for reliable short hops, need to map the C stick for reliable tilts, etc.

[@gabrielshimabukuro546]

They are not going to need a lot of buttons because a new player doesnt need to know about tilt controls, is not the "correct" way to play it its just a preference even some pro player doesnt use tilt controls and prefer to set as smash attacks, like is the default.

[@GamesAndAnimes]

​@@gabrielshimabukuro546 I was a new player in 1999 (Smash 64) and the game told me about this two methods (tilt and smash) and I still hate it to this day. The only reason why I think Rivals of Aether is the better platform fighter, is the option to splitt the smash and tilt attacks to different buttons. The mapping of the C-Stick in Meele made it a little bit better, but you still have the triple mapping with the A button and with that the possibility for miss inputs, also I hated it to move my thumb away from all other buttons I need and remap the whole controller (which some player do) to have a more precise control over the character is a huge design flaw. Smash Bros. single attack button design remember me of context sensitive buttons in other video games and they suck most of the time too. The question is always, do you prefer full character control with complex controls or are you prefer simple controls to control only basic moves of a character? I prefer full control, but also love motion inputs to do cool moves. Simple is boring to me.

[@rkoking226]

Good video! I do disagree that "Capcom painted themselves in a corner" with modern in terms of balancing. Modern isn't meant to be equal to classic, it's meant to be a good stepping stone for gamers to try out the game and hopefully stick with it. Which from what data we have, it's doing just that. Just look at the success of CR Cup and all the Japanese events consistantly bringing in the same players with modern. Modern also hasn't disrupted major tournament play as ppl were dreading, with only modern Chun only being relavant for a bit before a decline in modern success rate. I think it's easy to say that capcom has hit the sweet spot for appealing to the newer audience and keeping the older generation happy. Anyways, I can't wait to see your next video. Cheers!

[@ckorp666]

i think it's more of a problem in mid-level play, where you get the dreaded Modern Luke holding down-back and reacting to everything, esp once they have lv1 ready. a rly good player can pick that playstyle apart, but it's just eye-clawingly boring, and will climb u way further up the ladder than it should. i think one button supers need way more post-flash lag outside of combos - if you get to react w/it instantly, then the other player should get time to react downstream unless you REALLY caught them out. and the specs should just have more startup

[@rkoking226]

@@ckorp666 That's a valid argument honestly. Playstyles like that aren't very engaging and fun to either watch or play against. But, it seems like it's a style of gameplay that they're ok with. Especially with mid level Guile's basic gameplay being the same as Modern Lukes.

[@ckorp666]

@@rkoking226 but guile is fundamentally built around that, and has to charge for it, which introduces all kinds of nuance. sweaty, passive modern luke feels like ur fighting a cheater, bc the char was not fundamentally designed with instant specials/supers in mind. i doubt they envisioned this kind of degenerate staring contest when designing the casual smash bros controls

[@jesse76th96]

I wish there was a filter against modern controls. Its pointless fighting them and its annoying not being able to run useful mixes because of 1 button super or dp

[@thatguy8841]

Modern is very counter intuitive when it comes to appealing to new players who want to learn classic. I can tell you from my friends' experience there's nothing that puts them off from playing more than losing to someone you're objectively better than because of an in game advantage. It's meant to benefit new players but it does that to a fault.

[@kylespevak6781]

8:05 Get rid of tap jump and set right stick to "attack". It'll do tilts instead of smash attacks (you can use the macro for that) and you can up tilt without accidentally jumping. It also allows you to input aerials without influencing DI

[@raybun4003]

The most underrared channel in the FGC

[@Scrubermensch]

As a 27 y/oldf*rt I really think diluting the difficulty kinda kills the satisfaction off of the game 🤷‍♂️

[@rikuheart91]

I might be a minority but I never had any problem learning motion inputs and milions of people over the yaers didn't too, developers of fighting games need to learn to make good tutorials for their games instead of continuing this trend of simplifying inputs.

[@xooks3050]

Admittedly if modern was there when I started I prolly wouldve picked it up. Its a decent way to learn the other parts of the game before climbing the wall of the controls. You can still use motion inputs in modern also so you can practice inputs here and there until you eventually graduate to classic. Obviously this only covers the lower level of the game, but even at the high level, we arent seeing that much modern realisticallyl.

[@travkenn1019]

Tutorials don’t always help, dexterity can be an issue and modern makes these games more fun and accessible for new or casual players. Not everyone is trying to get to Evo.

[@rikuheart91]

@@travkenn1019 learning a few motion inputs or sequences doesn't mean you wanna enter evo

[@thatguy8841]

​@@travkenn1019 It's 3 directions and a button. Stop pretending like you need a PhD

[@Countdownsmiles]

Yeah same, i struggled with motion inputs as a kid before i knew what a training mode was, but when mvc3 came out i took the time to learn inputs and do combo trials and now i'm hitting orochinagi loops. I understand for some people modern is appealing because they don't plan on putting time into the game or they might have a condition that makes inputs more difficult. But when i made my non-fighting game friends play games with modern controls they just got bored faster.

[@viniciosantos]

Been binging on your videos today, such great quality.

[@pressbuttonwin2602]

Thank you! Glad you're finding them helpful

[@icerabbit225]

I never really felt right about people saying Smash is more accessible than traditional fighting games. I think it's true that given no knowledge it's easier to just move your guy around in Smash, but the second you interface with playing competitively Smash is way harder. Traditional fighting games just have a higher floor for having an enjoyable experience, but I feel like the people complaining about motion inputs wouldn't really play regardless.

[@mrosskne]

modern controls in SF6 don't require more buttons. here are my control layouts in each. classic LMH punch - 7 8 9 LMH kick - 4 5 6 throw parry drive impact - 1 2 3 9 buttons modern LMH - 4 5 6 throw parry drive impact - 1 2 3 assist - 0 special - 7 8 buttons With command normals and additional normals from the starters from assists, I have never felt like I'm lacking for options vs classic players.

[@evilded2]

For the point about smash having unintuitive inputs it raises the question of what motion inputs are. Tekken has attacks done by hitting forward + button f,n,f f,f,n+button While running Ect. Are these motion inputs? Maybe, if a move as more than one direction required to input it? 66 and 22 motions tend to appear even in games "without" motion inputs. It's all it's literally all perception there is nothing actually mechanically more difficult about motion inputs verses the standard actions performed in any match. So it's all just for marketing but, I'm generally unconvinced that a person who doesn't play fighting games would choose to purchase a game that they otherwise wouldn't because of the absence of certain mechanics.

[@thehunter4934]

Never clicked a video so fast in my life, i missed your content

[@discardedbiscuit5449]

"I personally struggle to control my character in Smash way more than any traditional fighter" This is kinda why I been getting into Multiversus lately, I don't have to worry about tilts, apart from dash attacks (attacks while running, there isn't even actual dashing) every direction + input basically does one thing, feels a lot more precise. Smash Ultimate feels way too zippy for me.

[@Cradien]

Charge was invented to help players with motion inputs? That's wild to me as when I picked up SF4 in 2009 me and my friend were able to do motion inputs (badly) but couldnt manage to do any charge moves properly for months lol. I still remember the first time I was able to do chuns SBK and kikoken consistently in arcade mode and me and my friend were popping off

[@jakebeansboy3755]

Ironically the tilt/smash attacks in smash always frustrate me, but i have no issue with motions

[@nouze.]

love this channel so much, i love your videos, keep up the good work man

[@tobyrayserrano258]

YES! New Press Button Win!

[@MartinPutniorz]

I see on your site that you wrote this before the Tekken 8 release; that would've been a funny addition with its Special mode.

[@rc9145]

It’s hilarious charged moves were meant to be easier but it took me yearsss to find out how to do them i had no idea you had to hold ⬅️ i thought you just pressed ⬅️➡️👊 even now i drop the input alot

[@StofenThe1st]

My problem is that what often happens is that I slip and cause the control stick to move slightly up or down and causes the character to do something completely different.

[@Ragingspoon]

I dont care what control method fighters choose but they really need to give thought to what they are going to do before and while making the game. With SFVI it feels like the decision was from a sales perspective and rather than one they came to after carefully evaluating the type of game they were making. Im all for one button specials if that is what you want and designed the game around but with legacy games which fighters are largely dominated by now (as its been a long time since they were in pop culture enough for those not invested in the genre already to give a go). it feels like they are trying to put a square peg in a wooden hole as it were when they try simplifying controls to much.

[@quantumpotato]

I think supers that need more reaction time (from inputs) could use simple button inputs + 6 frame startup

[@muttiilpomodoro4354]

An interesting approach that an indie game took, called Uchu Mega Fight, is to make a whole different character that uses smash inputs for each member of the cast, giving them different properties and mechanics while existing in the same game, usually the "Choy" version of the character has lower HP, is smaller and does less damage overall, can double jump, and easily combos after throws, and all of it with 1 attack button and 1 special button like Smash, vs Normal version characters with classic motion inputs and more standard Punch and kick button, chain combos.

[@cdriper]

Man, your videos are great! Best tutorials about fighting games on youtube! Unfortunately your channel is underrated and you don't have enough views.

[@Shodan130]

the whole debate on modern controls is dumb. people have one button specials and they still need more. considering that in the early 90's sf2 turbo on the SNES was played by literal children using the SF2 input buffer. if you can't do special inputs i'm amazed you can even dress yourself in the morning.

[@Nextliar]

I never seen anyone complaining about the specials in MvC2, were you just press the 2 triggers and BOOM

[@Shodan130]

@@Nextliar well no one used that one as level 3’s in marvel 2 was a waste of meter

[@MangaMarjan]

So I'm not the only one that finds Smash's controls worse than those of practically every other fighter. There is so much finesse needed to contently perform what you want to do because you are using the stick so much. For movement I feel like it works great, although a dash button (maybe r or l) would be great but when it comes to attacks it's just a mess. Especially when misinputs are making you do a highly punishable smash attack instead of the safe poking tilt attack. Characters like Ryu with even more moves bound to those two attack buttons (+ motion inputs) are even worse. You can get used to it but I see no reason why there couldn't be an option for mapping smash attacks and tilts separately or even being able to map short hops and dashes.

[@thatguy8841]

Thank you for blessing us with this video, i fully agree

[@user-bkey]

if anything i think the system today is pretty good, modern has advantages but at the end of the day it hasnt really killed sf6 or anything. the advantages havent proven that strong and people are mostly moving back to classic which is a good thing, modern players get to try the game with the easier system and can play on classic if they end up liking the game

[@sadetwizelve]

1button specials will never be the standard. I don't know why people think it will be. It won't bring in more players,people avoid fighting games simply because they're scary...1on1 battle involving punching a s kicking scares people.

[@spiffythealien]

The solution already exists. Unsurprisingly, it's called Soulcalibur.

[@Jagurda1]

Interesting video. I think going to one button is a big mistake for fighting games. Performance and hard work have always been part of the genre, and reward well the player who is willing to put in the work. Now there is no concept of balance between complex and simple moves. Especially in games like SF6, where supers with one button simply turn off half of the enemy’s options, because they still have high damage and invulnerability frames. It's not only cheap, but also stupidly cheating. Capcom should divide the players between those who play honestly and those who just want to sit on their ass and knock everything out with one button.

[@ADreamingTraveler]

If you get beat by a person using Modern you're just bad. I used to think Modern was 'cheating' for a while after release but now that I've played the game for a while I realized that's not the case. In fact many people who got into the game using Modern are now moving onto learning Classic because the community has come to the conclusion that Classic is superior over Modern. Modern is just there for people intimidated by motion inputs and don't have the time to really learn. It doesn't mean they just automatically have a huge advantage over classic players.

[@Jagurda1]

@@ADreamingTraveler Tell me then: 1) How to do qcf qcf LV3 super on the classics without releasing the block even for a frame? 2) How to buffer a charged super or flash kick in every normal and every gap, without losing the charge? 3) Is it normal that a top player in a tournament sometimes allows you to jump on him, but a random diamond scrub counters with one button invul DP everything even a move like an instant dive kick and raw drive rush? 4) Capcom prohibits hitboxes in tournaments where d+u=u because it is impossible to press down plus up, but they will allow you to do 720 literally in 0 frames with one button, from a sitting block. Where is the logic here? Modern control is broken at a basic level. Street Fighter doesn't work like that and never has. If they make it mandatory for everyone or remove that ridiculous 20% damage penalty, there won't be any reason to play fair. It will just be a world of macro cheaters. And the best fighting game will turn into a bad party game. Even Mortal Kombat will be a better fighting game - because it's bad, but still a fighting game. Well, the irony.

[@Jagurda1]

@@ADreamingTraveler Oh yes. I completely forgot. 5) Is it normal and fair that at autocombos the auto single hit confirm? For example Cammy. cr.LK, cr.LP xx Spiral autocombo. If you blocked the first cr.LK but ate the second, then there will be an auto combo into Spiral. But if you blocked both attacks, the Spiral will not be executed and will not hit the block. Thats just like CPU lv8 confirm supers from single hit. I could also bring in a discussion from shooters about how fair and sporty it is to use auto-aim, but I don’t understand this deeply and simply believe that everything that a player does not with his own hands, but with the help of macros, is cheating and should be prohibited in competitions.

[@unrighteous8745]

Modern is much stronger at very low levels, but the vast majority of top players use Classic. Losing moves isn't worth the instant reversals. You can call it cheating, but having extra moves and more damage also sounds like cheating to me.

[@BlueLightningSky]

To this day, I have no idea how a lever won over all button controllers in the arcades. It just doesn't make sense from a manufacturing perspective, it's much easier to manufacture all buttons rather than 1 lever for every 6, sometimes 4 or 8 buttons. Like wise from a programming perspective, having a lever is very inefficient because the lever is still a digital input.

[@-cactus.raven-]

Because lever was a semi standard input. Think Pac-Man as just a random example. You have a surplus of parts, know how it works, so it’s obvious that it’s gonna get used in future games/cabs, with minor tweaks like gate and lever based on region. Plus, similar to how shooters today use “left stick move, right stick look” movement with a lever is intuitive due to it being used in the past. All games are built on the backs of predecessors

[@-cactus.raven-]

Oh and, it’s surprising how much abuse they can take, without need for maintenance or extra care, which is a huge upside when your catering to dozens of ppl a day and needing the popular machines to have a minimal downtime as possible

[@MattMcT]

Thank you so much for your content dude. Fantastic work!

[@fiddlestickjones]

At some point people are just going to a have a button for every move on a character, imagine a tekken characters controller

[@NrettG]

Finally the Potemkin Hitbox expanded

[@mechajintsu]

Awesome video

[@naejimba]

The bad thing is the controllers are being created and spread in use because they make these games easier or more consistent. If everyone is allowed an advantage in something competitive, you often see the majority of people do it. If that is true for something like steroids that is illegal, harms your body, shrinks your testicles, and makes you die young the same would hold true to competitive gaming and input devices. If it's an option available eventually it will become the norm. So the question is, where will this end up? What does the end result of the input device look like? If it isn't an arcade stick, which it's likely not, we have to rethink everything. The whole genre is built around the inputs taking time to execute, and that with practice you can do so faster and more consistent. The gains in muscle memory mirrors the gains a fighter gets while training... this is a big part of why these games captured audiences. You choose that character and start out terrible, and over time you train and work hard until you are a competent fighter. Just like in real life the only limits are your opponents and there are contests to crown the best in the world. Whatever we go with really needs to capture this essence that is difficult to describe. Also, part of what was so appealing of playing fighting games on an arcade stick (and why many STILL do) is because of the visceral feel of it... it's more than just moving your thumbs around or tapping with your fingertips like you were typing. Being a bit more physical in nature I think helps you connect with the character as you move them. At any rate, it can't be "easy" to do these moves or there is little room for that growth, and at the top end being able to eek out a bit more is a huge deal. It also has an effect on tournaments, which are a magical part of the FGC. If an action is difficult to do or hard to do consistently, your nerves under pressure means you can easily flub up and drop it. This creates a great deal of tension, and makes the moments where someone pops off hype. Without that, it isn't interesting. No one would care about the Daigo parry if it wasn't hard to do. Without a passionate competitive scene, less people play and the game dries up. We bring up Melee as an example of easy motion inputs, but everything else is NOT. Even something basic like being able to flick on your shield at the right time before landing can give you an advantage. Much of the difficulty of execution is in the mobility in that title... and I would argue if we simplified all of that so anyone could easily do it the title would be less popular competitively and wouldn't have the same staying power. At a certain point, the input devices are working AGAINST what gives these games narrative (YOU are the main character, not the avatar you control; YOU level up in real life). It works against the needed room for human error, to allow for tension and hype that the tournaments and community needs. It works against having to train starting with the basics... it's like skipping most of a Rocky movie, having him fumble through a bit of training, and then doing OK in the final fight. Learning how to play fighting games from scratch, you have to fight and claw for every little gain you get. It's not like an RPG, where you can put on netflix and turn off your brain; it takes everything you've got to get gains. Every victory mattered because you had to WORK for it. You started off as a bum, a nobody, and you rose to the top. We can't lose this aspect of the genre or it becomes a hollow shell of what it once was.

[@LeoJahn182]

Great video! Please keep going :)

[@riveteye93]

sick thumbnail, dude

[@Martorfunk]

Yeah definiticely the guy that said he wanted strive to be a fighting game that you can win without using training did it cause the hitbox, not cause there are a lot of people who can't dash (sounds dumb but I know people that struggle with dashes) at that point just put a win button

[@jonjack7841]

Great video!

[@BATCHARRO]

Long running series like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat etc can't just drop the motions and balance for it because fans would riot, but they are including it as an option because new games are doing it and that's not a problem for them. For my game I did think that for anything that's "too good" like a Flash Kick, you have to hold what I call the Alt button for a few seconds and then hit the special button. This way you just can't do broken moves on a whim. The would be an option for motion inputs but the game would be balanced around easy controls.

[@thatguy8841]

MK doesn't have simple inputs

[@BATCHARRO]

@@thatguy8841 I know that. I was speaking broadly if popular known fighting game serieses.

[@johnmatthews3828]

Great Video!!!🙌🔥

[@ggteddf1]

Hey Zissou, I read your accompanying blog post after watching this video and I really enjoyed it. More so than the video alone. Just wanted to say thanks for the nice read. How's darkstalkers been?

[@pressbuttonwin2602]

Thank you! Some of the positive responses to the blog have me wondering if I should've integrated that content into the video somehow, haha. Vampire Savior is great-the community is super welcoming and the game itself is amazing. It's definitely the most I've enjoyed a game since my marvel 3 days.

[@arcticbulktoaster348]

PBW'S BACK

[@nahuel3433]

I think that if as you say devs are shifting their development because of a controller arm's race then they are hugely missguided. Because that's a fools errand that they'll just lose. They can easily enforce controller standards on official tournaments for one. So everyone that was thinking of seriously competing would have to practice and adhere to that. Here is the alternative however. Right now I own a little controller that has a turbo button. Should I use that to ensure that all my reversal jabs, all my links are frame 1? Should everyone in competition do that? Should the developers develop around it and start maybe getting rid of timing execution for the sake of those that don't have a turbo button? What if we start getting into the territory of extra software? What if my controller can be programmed with macros? at what point did we cross the line to cheating? Because developing around that line just makes it so the cheating is easier. This reminds me of WoW's problem with software that basically tells you the solutions of mechanics and where to stand mid fight. Developers allowed it, and as such they designed increasingly tough and unclear mechanics that now pretty much require you to have one of these installed, and as such the fight design has been quite hurt by it. At least, that's what the people in FFXIV that chose to raid in there rather than WoW tell me. FFXIV being a game that has actively discouraged software such as this and as a result has widely praised mechanics, which while still being VERY hard don't require wrestling with a 3rd party software at all. If this is the reason why we are getting 1 button fighters, then to me that looks like they are missing the forest for the trees and leaving behind a lot of what makes the genre unique for little gain. Also sidenote, I know you disliked the Granblue way of doing things but I think it's the best solution if you are going to have 1 button specials (though I'd want the classic inputs to do more damage across the board, not just in neutral like now) Sure, there is an extra button aside from all the other inputs but like... if you are a beginner that is learning you don't even need to think about all of those. You can stick to simple inputs and be done with it. But unlike SF's modern, you can easily and gradually transition to using a more classic controller scheme, maybe you want to start maximizing your damage, so this combo uses just a single motion input... maybe after you get used to it the combo uses one more motion input. And then you end up executing it fully with motion inputs so it's the best it can be. All while falling back on simple inputs for safety an confort. While on something like SF you have to relearn your entire control scheme to actually transition to classic if that's what you want. Now the way GBFVSR actually does it is dumb because there is literally no reason to learn to do the inputs outside of neutral, so only really reversals are encouraged to be done that way. And as a result I feel the cast feels quite homogenized sadly, very same-y on the hands.

[@queenbeeremedy6993]

Turbo buttons have been forever banned, and most controllers don't have them so it's incomparable. Where as leverless controllers have been an avid thing being used competitively and casually for a long time now. Banning a controller type is against accessibility and limits a competitive playerbase. It's not a great look. Also something the uploaded failed to mention is that the instant specials from granblue also have a longer cool down on use. This means that if you use a reversal dp in it you won't be able to do that input again for several seconds. This is a downside of using the simple inputs, especially in neutral.

[@nahuel3433]

@@queenbeeremedy6993 Right, but why not ban new other new things if turbo buttons are banned, banning turbo buttons is also a barrier of accessibility and limiting competitive player base. What if I can't mash? So all of that applies. The only real difference is that one was allowed to take over the scene are the other one didn't. Sure, it's too late to ban a regular hitbox (which is essentially a keyboard anyway, which has been a thing for way longer) but you can detail on rules exactly how many buttons in there should be, just like there are rules for specific types of SOCD resolutions in some SF6 tournaments And I'm mostly a GBFVSR Player. And that may have been the case in the original. But not now, you can outright spam specials on neutral (or combos for that matter) with easy inputs with no CD. The H versions of the specials gives you a cooldown regardless of which version you use (to double check I looked at Dustloop and it doesn't say anything about any CD changes) and the U version which uses meter has very little CD, and can be used in CD. All regardless of easy input or not. Literally the only reason why you'd ever want to use the technical inputs is in neutral for a bit more damage or maybe in a link.

[@queenbeeremedy6993]

@@nahuel3433 Turbo buttons and other mashing mechanics are already being balanced out by the removal of mashing supers in fighting games. Can you name a fighting game that had a masher super in the last 4-5 years? It's not common. They remove mashing mechanics in almost every fighter these days, some exceptions being Smash stuns (which is heavily criticized) and things like Guilty Gear's stagger which maxes out at 3 inputs. Developers have already been dealing with the mashing mechanics at a software level. My B on the GBFVSR, I don't have anything to say about that. On the point of there being a controller with too many buttons, there hasn't been a player to make a significant enough impact nor has there been a significant enough advantage to warrant it.

[@nahuel3433]

@@queenbeeremedy6993 There is still anmincredible ammount of usefulness to auto mashing that can give you a huge advantage over someone without. I already gave examples. Mashing on block becomes trivial. Normally if you don't do it fast enough or well timed enough your reversal jab can be delayed by a frame or 2 which can mean the oppoment hits you out of it. Frame trapping yourself Links, especially 1 frame links, are a joke. Right now timing that and mashing out a link can be a bit of a tough ordeal making great combos inconsistent if at all possible. Hell some cancels can be a bit tough Even just round start may find mashing useful. You don't want to lose the RPS because your button came out a frame later than you wanted. Mashing is an intrinsic part of fighting games both offensively and defensively. All a fighting game needs for perfect turbo mashing to be incredibly useful is that the game makes you stuck on a state where you can't act and your next action NEEDS to start as soon as possible. Given pretty much every fighting game does this with block stun and simply attack animation commital and many other such states well... If ammount of buttons doesn't seem to give a significant advantage then developers shouldn't try and design around that then. My core argument doesn't change. If its not a problem then there is no need to design around it. And if it IS a problem it is one that shouldn't be dealt mechanically, at least this way which kills a lot of what makes fighting games unique. I think mashing as a mechanic has been gradually removed because it's not necesarilly the most fun skill. Not because turbo buttons like how this video implies about motions and new controllers.

[@queenbeeremedy6993]

@nahuel3433 @nahuel3433 @nahuel3433 There are frame tight frametraps that punish players for mashing at all. These blow up those who mash relentlessly. Many modern fighters remove 1f links, and many 1f links require manual timing as well. Too early and it drops, too late and it drops. And even when you do hit it, you don't know exactly when you will, so the cancel becomes that much more difficult. Not only do many round starts have a slight buffer before movement, but round starts have natural counters. Dude likes to mash his fastest button? You punish with something that beats that, etc. Johnny fs on round start for example, you clean beat that frames 1-7 with 6P. On Blockstun you still have that buffer, usually 3f before end of blockstun. While developers remove mashing because it isn't fun, it still goes against turbos usefulness as a whole. It's need as an accessibility feature is not needed. I wasn't commenting on your original point on developers messing with extra buttons though, I was more saying that removing a controller type hampens accessibility. Whether or not a controller has more buttons is of no care to me, but rather the type of controller I'd the important part. For example, I play Melee on leverless because I have risks of tendinitis. If they removed such, I wouldn't be able to play.

[@pian-0g445]

Have had no major issues with motionless fighters. SF6 has clearly shown that classic is the way to go, but modern is still available for m more casual audience. And it works. I can now play against my friend who don’t particularly like to invest time in fighting game, but modern control still allows them to have fun against me. And fighting games have always simplified certain aspects of the game. But doesn’t mean it’s necessarily easier (though most are). Guilty Gear only has 4 main attack button and one special one called dust. They have a literal combo system called Gatling which makes connecting certain moves incredibly easy. While this has changed over time (especially Strive), it’s still a system that makes a certain part of the game easier. Yet +R and Xrd are still known to be very difficult games. I whole heartedly believe SF6 is as difficult as 4. Not in execution though, but the heavy mental stack that has to be dealt with. So, even though SF6 is easier to pick up and play, even on classic due to there being more buffer time, to get good at it is still hard.

[@バカ外人]

I hope developers won't get rid of motion inputs, took me a while to learn them and I still feel cool every time I do them

[@whathitwonder4037]

I want that thumbnail on a shirt.

[@DANCERcow]

When the community unanimously forgets that simple one button inputs and one button special moves have been around since the first Marvel vs Capcom game lol

[@maxjustice1542]

I think about how fighting games will be developed with accessibility and controllers in mind. I'm okay with with easier inputs for future titles. Change is hard to adjust to but it is necessary. Maybe one day fighting games will just be no inputs we just use are eyes to do moves. Good work on the video!

[@DerHalbeEuro]

i knew it was easier to do electrics on arcade controller than pad. i play tekken since 25 and sill can't do the electrics on a pad consistently

[@Gak237]

1:10 pretty silly mistake, since side specials were introduced in melee Mario's side special has been his cape reflector.

[@cdntl]

perhaps we got engagement baited but I was thinking the same thing. Mario Side B has always been cape

[@pressbuttonwin2602]

Side specials were introduced in Melee (they didn't exist in Smash 64)

[@Gak237]

@@pressbuttonwin2602 I did mention that, yeah.

[@mechadeka]

​@@pressbuttonwin2602Mario's fireball was never side+B.

[@pressbuttonwin2602]

@@mechadeka Who said it was?

[@AuntBibby]

im used to playing Classic Controls since i was younger, but i appreciate Modern Controls becuz i have trouble with cancelling from normals into certain special move inputs. somthin bout linking 2 crouching lights and then cancelling into a shoryuken is just too hard with Classic Controls

[@ADreamingTraveler]

I've noticed in my experience that motion inputs can be hard depending on the type of controller you're using. Certain controller dpads make it easier or harder to do them so that's always a thing to take into account as well imo

[@nahuel3433]

@@ADreamingTraveler Choosing a prefered combo routing is also a skill in these games. If your prefered controller makes certain things harder nothing says you should actually do them, maybe alternatives are better. This isn't just because of controller, some combos are straight up inconsistent for even the best players. And as such they don't use them. Your "optimal combo" vs "tournament combo"

[@unrighteous8745]

Classic is really tough if you don't know the shortcuts. For example, the [cr.LP -> cr.LP -> DP] you mentioned is really tough when you're holding down for the punches, then moving to forward, down, then down+forward. However, it can also be done by holding down+forward, doing both punches, then moving the stick down and back to down+forward for the DP. You essentially just wiggle your stick or dpad a bit and get DP. Way easier.

[@BetterThanDoomWithAZ]

I'm one of the people who never could get into fighting games as a kid because the buttons were too complex for me. Smash I'm decent at and feels natural to me but I'm trying to learn Street Fighter 2 now and wish the controls were more similar to it. Those controls are not as intimidating to me as when I was 6 but they're still weird to me, like having to wait 2 second to do Honda's flying headbutt (I don't play against humans yet but if I did I'd assume my attack would be very telegraphed). It doesn't really make sense to me why these simplified controls weren't implemented from the get-go. If they were, more fans would've grown up with the genre and these adjustments wouldn't have to be made now.

[@ToranosukeEdo]

Complex inputs that require skill and mental poise to execute are what make fighting games entertaining in the first place. Git gud and experience the joy of challenge and self improvement

[@thatguy8841]

You're overcharging if you think it needs 2 seconds

[@BetterThanDoomWithAZ]

@@thatguy8841 Probably since it seems like the computer can pull off the move in no time. I only said 2 seconds because that's what the info online states, though I'm assuming it's more like 2 time units of whatever pace you're playing the game, rather that 2 seconds

[@BetterThanDoomWithAZ]

@@thatguy8841 Also the control pad on the pro controller isn't that great, so it's difficult to tell when I'm misinputting

[@thatguy8841]

@@BetterThanDoomWithAZ It's a computer, it cheats

[@mirax96]

Very nice video. I really wanna see a famous game with simple inputs... Well, other than Smash. That's why I'm kinda waiting for the LoL fighting game. Just to see how it performs. Motion inputs have their place, that's for sure, but I think there should be more options for both styles. Simple games are yet kinda "rare". Closest thing currently is probably DBFZ and, excluding motions and just frames, Tekken 8.

[@nep401]

Oh man the reference to 2001 A Space Odyssey 😂😂

[@Cambiony]

One aspect of button specials developers have not really taken advantage yet is that because specials don't use the normal buttons anymore, you can put in more command normals without worrying about overlaps. You see this in 3D games where motion inputs are more scarce. This could alleviate the need to add so many more buttons.

[@chadkowalski5517]

Damn I love me a good Zissou. Gotta be honest, I didn't even know about the "kinda" press the stick + button thing in Smash. And 3DS Guile looks like some absolute bullshit.

[@jesussantellanes7555]

Stanley Kubrick would be proud.

[@TheGooGaming]

One aspect that balances modern more than the damage and the lack of some buttons is the lack or some special move options; not having light or heavy tatsu or light and heavy donkey kick as Ryu, or only a heavy fireball on Ken restricts your options in a way that has a knock-on effect; for example, if you wanna throw a safe fireball as modern ken, you must spend meter, and so on. Not to mention some combos are harder in modern because 2 special moves share inputs. For example, Jinrai into Dragonlash as Ken again, to side swap, you can do heavy jinrai into od dragon lash; but the only way to do dragonlash in modern is back special, which is also the input for the low follow-up of Jinrai; making it so you actually have to link into dragonlash by waiting after the input window of Jinrai's second hit; while on classic you can just input the dragonlash motion immediately. These sorts of more niche scenarios are why modern is just so rare in high rank and almost absent in competitive play. I think its pretty genius they added it to the game and it hasn't broken that level of play; Capcom kinda had their cake and ate it too with the easy inputs.

[@thatguy8841]

None of this offsets the experience at the lower level tho.

[@maaziqbal357]

Please take my words with a grain of salt as I don’t use modern, I only fiddled with it a bit in the beta. I believe you can still access the other levels of specials while using modern, however the versions other than the default one requires you to do the real motion. Also, after trying out the combo you mentioned, it is only marginally harder to the extent that I think the more accurate word would be different, not harder. Besides that, as you can still do the real input, if you were not able to find the timing, I think the natural inclination would be to not use the easy input for the ex dragonslash to avoid the issue altogether.

[@dominicwilliams214]

So what your saying is ban hitbox. I couldn't agree more

[@bruhmaxxer]

your reasoning seems flawed. While there are more buttons on the controller for a player to remember, it's a lot easier to explain "button does those types of actions" than it is to explain the concept of a quarter circle to someone that never touched a fighting game, let alone get them comfortable with it. It's basically the same reason why software still has buttons and menus, even when shortcut keys are faster - It's more intuitive for new users. Additionally, advanced game knowledge such as knowing when it's better to use simple special moves vs traditional special moves have really nothing to do with accessibility for beginners.

[@thatguy8841]

A quarter circle is literally 3 directions+ button. How is that on any way difficult to understand

[@bruhmaxxer]

​@@thatguy8841 Small anecdote. When I was a wee child, playing samsho on my hand me down OG xbox, I played mina. She had a move that basically shot an arrow while leaping over the opponent. The input was a simple dragon punch input. However, since I had no internet to know how to do the move, I only had the move list to base myself off of. The listed input was Fwd - Dwn - DF - slash (623S). I understood that in a weird way. Instead of inputing all of the directions in series, I instead understood it as inputting every direction while returning to neutral after each one. It took me months of random bullshit to actually get the input out at random. And since it was an old Neo Geo game, being played on an xbox controller... It took me days before I managed to actually figure out what I even did. Had I had someone explain me the input, I would've had an easier time. But I didn't have that, due to being a lonely sheltered child, and it was really difficult to learn. Point being, if you don't have someone explaining you the concept of motion inputs, they're actually really, REALLY difficult to figure out.

[@thatguy8841]

@@bruhmaxxerUse your tutorial and Read your moves list, they're in basically any semi recent game.

[@bruhmaxxer]

@@thatguy8841 Most tutorials in fighting games are kind of awful, if I'm being frank. The fact that skullgirls and Guilty Gear still stand out as having top of the line tutorials after all these years tell you everything that you need to know.

[@thatguy8841]

@@bruhmaxxer People aren't playing most fighting games, every relevant one has a good tutorial. SF6, the main topic of discussion has a great one

[@marcelloconte784]

The simplified inputs in my opinion are a good thing the real problem for the future of fighting games are the oppressive 50/50 mechanics and the neutral skip tech like drive rush in sf6 and heat dash in tekken 8. Strategy and reaction will be completely nullified by coin flips and this is real bad not the easy 1 button reactions

[@thatguy8841]

"Strategy and reaction" Just check the drive Rush ffs 🙄

[@TuMadre8000]

i believe motion inputs can be intuitive, they just need to be presented better. i think sf6 is proof of that, as most players use classic, and a lot of players that start with modern are essentially "graduating" to classic over time it is in this whole presenting game mechanics to new players thing where i think an interesting single player mode could excel at teaching newbies how to do inputs. unfortunately most singleplayer modes in fighting games end up being really uninteresting. i understand that developing a fighting game is hard enough as is, so there's probably very little incentive in making an engaging singleplayer mode that's a step above from a boring, by the numbers tutorial. i think it's a shame, because in my opinion so many fighting game concepts would benefit from a way of learning them that's more interactive than just reading about them on a wiki

[@michellea.793]

meanwhile, keyboards: ☕️

[@voxrex3932]

Agree with the motion inours part but the whole lever controllers circlejerk is at best incomplete with its critique. There is nuance to it (at least in Tekken, don't know much about 2D).

[@boredlazymax]

What I love about fighting games is their nuanced combat, player expression, and complexity of approach to the fight. That's the beauty of the fighting game genre. But making the fighting game simpler and easier to do shouldn't be an option since it will just make most of the fights the same-ish and less vibrant. It's like making the next Dark Souls game boss easier to defeat so that everyone can play Dark Souls, it will lose its charm and identity in the game.

[@LimakPan]

It's 2024 and FGC bros are discovering wtf a keyboard is.

[@michellea.793]

THATS WHAT IM SAYIN. for months i’ve tried to find the answer to why keyboards are considered fair game but hitboxes are cheating, i’ve come up with nothing

[@Shining4Dawn]

7:43 This! This is why I don't play 1 on 1 Smash! It's funny, because an execution barrier is what drives most people away from traditional fighters. It seems like casuals just don't notice the execution barrier in Smash since it feels like your character is semi-automatic rather than you having full control over it. These type of controls are also what drove me away from games like Assassin's Creed, where your character does parkour for you, but it's very delicate joystick motions that dictate the direction and type of movement your character will do next.

[@block36079]

7:27 well auto isn’t really needed, so it’s still six

[@pressbuttonwin2602]

You need auto for ex specials and for certain normals (for example, the only way to get Blanka standing heavy punch on modern controls is to do auto + heavy attack).

[@block36079]

@@pressbuttonwin2602 I stand corrected. Thanks for the info.

[@Varg69420]

Modern controls will never teach how to move on to classic controls, its pointless, an entirely different skillset that 99% of fighting games do not and will not use. idc what anyone says, its easy mode, learn to rotate a stick 90°. oh yeah and seeing hitboxes with like 14 different buttons is just optimizing the fun out of the game, its about who has the most buttons to do shit easier, but whatever i just like a stick with 6 buttons bc im not a freak

[@thatguy8841]

Scrub or just insecure

[@j03T3XAz]

7:46 thats not how you do smash attacks. You have to hold down A to activate the charge for a smash attack, or you can just flick your C-stick directionally if you have "smash stick" turned on Also for dash attack I thought you have to flick the analog stick twice to activate?

[@pressbuttonwin2602]

Smash attacks can be charged for extra damage, but a not charged smash attack is still a smash attack (the ability to charge smash attacks was added in melee). You only need a single flick of the stick to dash (and then a single press of the attack button to attack out of the dash)

[@CrossbowBeta]

I am

[@Hlidskialf]

6:35 "they want simple moves and they don't want to get rid of traditional inputs. solution is pretty obvious, pick one" ???? is like saying to a homeless person: "Just get a house, duh" lmao

[@thatguy8841]

Except, they literally have the option to. The can of they wanted to, they already did.

[@redfalcon2383]

No, it's like saying: "just play another game if motion inputs are too hard". Not all games are for everyone and it's not that serious

[@CoVa923]

​@redfalcon2383 as a company that's trying to make money that's a poor way of thinking, like he said in the vid smash sales dumped on sfv's and between the big 3 of traditional fighting games MK a game with pretty basic inputs, sells the best. Honestly I'm kind of curious if sf6 only had modern controls like originally intended would street fighter veterans still play the game or not. I also find it funny that the fgc has been niche for so long and everyone wants more people to get into the games but when the company making the games implement ways to help with that everyone shames the new players/method of getting people to play the game

[@madspunky]

I love how Fantasy Strike addresses these issues

[@aweigh1010]

Smash isn't a fighting game.

[@CoVa923]

A sub genre of fighting games, so technically still a fighting game

[@mrosskne]

if modern really is strictly better than classic, then you should use modern. limiting yourself for no reason makes you a scrub. it's no different than refusing to use throws because you think they're dishonorable.

[@sadetwizelve]

A hitbox in online rank or at a tournament is cowardly.

[@elopez1882]

Literally a skill issue